1 00:00:01,480 --> 00:00:07,200 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's 3 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:16,680 Speaker 2: Chuck and Jerry's here too, and that makes this Stuff 4 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:17,479 Speaker 2: you Should Know. 5 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 1: The podcast that's right movie Crush adjacent. Today. I put 6 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 1: this one together in big thanks to Mark Mancini of 7 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:33,880 Speaker 1: HowStuffWorks dot com. A great article in Vogue from Ridka Seth, 8 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 1: really good article from a guy named Douglas Lamon from 9 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:42,440 Speaker 1: Collider and also Collider from Thomas Butt and the Mary Sue, 10 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:47,640 Speaker 1: Danielle Baranda, all good stuff about the Bechdel Test. And 11 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 1: we would be remiss if we didn't mention right out 12 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:53,600 Speaker 1: at the gate that on our own iHeart Network, we 13 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:57,320 Speaker 1: have a great podcast called The bech Del Cast that's 14 00:00:57,360 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 1: been around for a long time now, They've been with 15 00:00:59,880 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 1: us for years. Yeah, and this is hosted by Caitlin 16 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 1: Durante and Jamie Loftus and it talks all about movies 17 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:11,200 Speaker 1: kind of through the lens of the Bechdel Test or 18 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 1: the Bechdel problem. 19 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:15,640 Speaker 2: Yes, and you can get that wherever you get podcasts. 20 00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:17,760 Speaker 1: Very well done. 21 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:20,120 Speaker 2: So what are we talking about, Chuck? I mean, I'm 22 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 2: sure there's a lot of people out there who know 23 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:25,399 Speaker 2: all about this still interesting. There's other people who maybe 24 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 2: heard of it but don't quite know what it has 25 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 2: to do. Maybe they're confusing it with a litmus test. 26 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:32,600 Speaker 2: And then other people are like, I've never heard those 27 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:34,199 Speaker 2: two words together in my life. 28 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 1: Well, maybe I think it might be fun if we 29 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 1: just sort of work through the Casablanca example, okay, and 30 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 1: illustrate it and then give sort of the definition. Does 31 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 1: that work for you? 32 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:46,199 Speaker 2: It works for me. I just have to find that. 33 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 1: Page, okay, Can I start while you look? 34 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:49,680 Speaker 2: Sure? 35 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 1: So, the movie Casablanca, one of the all time greats, 36 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 1: is on the AFI one hundred years one hundred movie 37 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 1: quotes list, with six different quote in trees, making it 38 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 1: the most, you know, the most number of quotes from 39 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:07,880 Speaker 1: a single movie on that list. And I still have 40 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 1: not seen all of Casablanca. I watched a lot of 41 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: it not too long ago. Didn't finish it. 42 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:16,960 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I meant too. 43 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 1: It wouldn't because I didn't like it. But I will 44 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 1: say this, and I know we talked about it right 45 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:23,239 Speaker 1: after I saw it some but I thought it was good, 46 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:24,680 Speaker 1: but I wasn't like, oh my god, this is the 47 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 1: best thing I've ever seen. 48 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, I vaguely remember talking. 49 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, like plenty of movies from that era. I like 50 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 1: much more. But I even know here's looking at you, kid, Louis. 51 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 1: I think this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship. 52 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:41,200 Speaker 1: Will always have paris of all of the gin joints 53 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 1: in all the small towns, or all the towns in 54 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:44,840 Speaker 1: all the world. She walks into mind like, these are 55 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:48,960 Speaker 1: all just in the sort of if you'd like movies, 56 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 1: you've probably heard these, even if you haven't seen the movie. 57 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:54,760 Speaker 2: Yes, But as a little aside, no one actually says 58 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 2: play it again, Sam in that movie. Nope, they say 59 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 2: play it Sam, or play say play as time goes 60 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:05,120 Speaker 2: by a couple of other variations, but no one says 61 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:06,079 Speaker 2: play it again, Sam. 62 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 1: They don't say that. 63 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 2: The thing is the reason we're talking about this and 64 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 2: how it relates to the Bechdel test is that Casablanca. 65 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 2: It's a great movie. There's a lot of great lines 66 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:19,800 Speaker 2: in it. Some of them are uttered by Lauren Bacall, 67 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:25,080 Speaker 2: but none of them are between two women. If Lauren 68 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:28,840 Speaker 2: Becall's character ils Lund is speaking them, she's speaking them 69 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 2: to a man, and then all the other men are 70 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 2: speaking to other men or to ilsu Lund. There's no 71 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 2: woman to woman conversation in Casablanca, which you might say, like, so, well, 72 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 2: actually there's a big fat explanation to that. So we're 73 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 2: gonna dive feet first into it. So open up patriarchy 74 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:49,280 Speaker 2: because we're coming in. 75 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 1: A quick statistic for you just to sort of illustrate 76 00:03:54,000 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 1: part of the problem is usc Annberg Annaberg Annenberg. I 77 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 1: knew I'd get there. Their Inclusion Initiative did a study 78 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 1: and there were a think tank that looks at diversity 79 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 1: in arts, and they saw that just thirty three point 80 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 1: one percent of speaking roles period in the top one 81 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 1: hundred grossing movies of twenty eighteen, and that was, you know, 82 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 1: thirty three percent, like seventy or sixty oh gosh, help 83 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 1: me out. Sixty seven percent of speaking roles in the 84 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:27,920 Speaker 1: one hundred grossing films were men. 85 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 2: Yes, that was a big increase though from two thousand 86 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:36,279 Speaker 2: and seven, where twenty nine point nine percent went to women. 87 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, I being facetious about three percent ish. 88 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:43,120 Speaker 2: And one of the reasons I saw is that that 89 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 2: the majority of supporting roles, especially like one scene, like 90 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:52,600 Speaker 2: speaking part just a bit part just kind of like 91 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:56,840 Speaker 2: very quick roles. Those are almost always are very typically 92 00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 2: filled by men. Right. I saw it described as does 93 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 2: your protagonist report a crime to a CoP's probably a man. 94 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:06,839 Speaker 2: Do they get stitched up? Doctor's probably a man. The 95 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:09,600 Speaker 2: President's probably a man, and the soldiers that he commands 96 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:13,720 Speaker 2: are likely men too. And that's really true. And I 97 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:16,160 Speaker 2: was reading an interview with a person named Kate Hagen, 98 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 2: who is the director of community at the Blacklist, which 99 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:21,680 Speaker 2: is a place where if you're a screenwriter you can 100 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 2: submit your stuff for like really good feedback, I believe. 101 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 1: Well, you know the Blacklist is it's a list of 102 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 1: the best screenplays in Hollywood that didn't get produced. 103 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 2: Oh I didn't know that. I thought it was like 104 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 2: a kind of a work shopping website. 105 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:40,279 Speaker 1: Well, they may have, like you know, made it into something, 106 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:42,840 Speaker 1: but the Blacklist is like, you're the ten best scripts 107 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:44,360 Speaker 1: that didn't get made into features. 108 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 2: Oh that's cool, Okay. Well, she's the director of community 109 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 2: there and she's like, once you see this, you can 110 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:52,240 Speaker 2: never unsee it. And she also points out that it's 111 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 2: not just bit parts going to men, but crowd scenes 112 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:59,520 Speaker 2: are very typically mostly men, and mostly white men, which 113 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:01,719 Speaker 2: in some way cases like if the thing's set in 114 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 2: rural Iowa at a men's club, sure that would make sense. 115 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:09,840 Speaker 2: But if it's like New York City, that doesn't really 116 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 2: make sense. And the thing is chuck. It's so common 117 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 2: that it's just really easy to look right past and 118 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 2: not really think about. But what Kate Hagen is saying 119 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 2: is like, once you do start to notice it, you're 120 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 2: getting to notice it from that point on. 121 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. All right, So all that was a 122 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 1: nice little build up to what is the title of 123 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:31,800 Speaker 1: this podcast, which is the Bechdel Test, named after a 124 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 1: graphic novelist named Alison Bechdell who had this long running 125 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 1: comic strip called Dykes to Watch Out For and in 126 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:42,440 Speaker 1: one of the entries in nineteen eighty five, so this 127 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 1: is a long time ago, it was called the Rule 128 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 1: and then subtitled with Thanks to Liz Wallace and in 129 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:51,800 Speaker 1: one of those panel In one of those panels, one 130 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:54,240 Speaker 1: of the characters says, I have this rule. See, I 131 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 1: only go to a movie if it satisfies three basic requirements. 132 00:06:58,040 --> 00:06:59,719 Speaker 1: One it has to have at least two women in 133 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 1: it who too talk to each other about three something 134 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:08,720 Speaker 1: besides a man, and that was in this cartoon sort 135 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:11,240 Speaker 1: of lived quietly for many years, and then in the 136 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 1: two thousands it really got spread around the internet, especially 137 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 1: in feminist communities online, especially in film websites for film 138 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 1: buffs and stuff like that, and it became known. Even 139 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 1: though Alison Bechdeal likes to credit her friend Liz Wallace 140 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 1: by calling the Bechdel Wallace Test, more people know it 141 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 1: as the Bechdel Test. 142 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 2: Right, and actually, later on, in a blog post from 143 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 2: twenty thirteen, Alison Bechdel said, you know, I think my 144 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 2: friend Liz Wallace actually might have gotten the idea from 145 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 2: Virginia Woolf, who wrote, quote, all these relationships between women, 146 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:51,560 Speaker 2: I thought, rapidly recalling the splendid gallery of fictitious women, 147 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 2: are too simple, And I tried to remember any case 148 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 2: in the course of my reading where two women are 149 00:07:56,800 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 2: represented as friends. Almost without exception, they are shown in 150 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:03,360 Speaker 2: their relation to men, and that really is kind of 151 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 2: the basis of the Backfelt Test. It's kind of a 152 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:10,360 Speaker 2: little more refined and a little more stripped down, but 153 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 2: the idea is that women characters typically are there to 154 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 2: support the men, or are deferential to the men, or 155 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:22,680 Speaker 2: are subservient to men in some way, shape or form, 156 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 2: even movies that feature like a female protagonist. 157 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, and we'll get to a couple of those in 158 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 1: a minute. But if it wasn't clear enough from that 159 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:35,160 Speaker 1: comic strip, the very three basic rules are, it has 160 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:37,160 Speaker 1: to contain and this is whether or not it passes 161 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:40,720 Speaker 1: or fails. It's a past fail thing. Two female characters. 162 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 1: And then later on it was added that they should 163 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:46,640 Speaker 1: be you know, named characters and not just like and 164 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:50,200 Speaker 1: we breeze by two women talking in a cafeteria. Briefly, 165 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 1: that's rule number one. Rule number two is the characters 166 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:55,960 Speaker 1: have to talk to each other and just each other 167 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 1: in a scene, and that their conversation has to be 168 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:04,320 Speaker 1: it can be about anything on planet Earth, except for 169 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 1: a conversation about a man or a group of men. 170 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 2: Even beyond planet Earth. They want to talk about galaxies 171 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 2: that would count. Galaxies, you know, talk about the Big 172 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:14,600 Speaker 2: Bang that would count too. 173 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 1: It seems so easy, and it's so amazing, And we'll 174 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 1: get to statistics that so many films sorry, flunk this test. 175 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 2: Right, that's the point, Like, it's it sounds really easy, 176 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 2: but it's not. It's extraordinarily hard for Hollywood. It turns out. Yeah, 177 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:36,080 Speaker 2: And I think, Chuck, this is a pretty good place 178 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:38,120 Speaker 2: maybe for our first ad break. What do you think 179 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:53,680 Speaker 2: I say toats. 180 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 1: And stuff with Joshua job. 181 00:09:51,240 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 2: Stuff, you shine up? All right, So, now that we've 182 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:13,600 Speaker 2: explained what the Bechdel test is, I think it's a 183 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 2: good time to say that we're totally aware of the 184 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 2: irony of a podcast that doesn't pass the Bechdel test 185 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:23,160 Speaker 2: talking about the Bechdel test. But I hope you guys 186 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 2: have been listening to us strong enough to not rake 187 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 2: us over the calls for it. 188 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 1: Well, you can't do that to a podcast. 189 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 2: Though, I think you can in some way, shape or form. 190 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 2: There's some sort of Bechtel tests that you could apply 191 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 2: to podcasts, for sure. 192 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 1: So then every podcast hosted by one or two people 193 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 1: that are guys fail to test. 194 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:44,599 Speaker 2: Well, we'll get into that, Chuck, because a lot of 195 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:47,880 Speaker 2: people say the Bechtel test is great in theory, but 196 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:51,640 Speaker 2: it really kind of doesn't make sense sometimes. 197 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, Well, let's go back in time, at 198 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:58,200 Speaker 1: least to the studio era where not a lot of 199 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 1: films were passing the Bechdel test. We talked about Casablanca. 200 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:04,960 Speaker 1: Of course, huge movies like Citizen Kane did not pass 201 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:07,840 Speaker 1: the Bechdel test. And a lot of movies, as you 202 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:10,920 Speaker 1: might expect from the you know, the thirties and forties, 203 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:14,720 Speaker 1: may not pass this test because movies have gotten more inclusive, 204 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:17,320 Speaker 1: more progressive, and stuff like that over time in general. 205 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:21,480 Speaker 1: But this is not like a problem from the bygone era. 206 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:26,720 Speaker 1: AFI did a separate list one hundred movies American movies 207 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 1: that is a release from nineteen sixteen to two thousand 208 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:34,440 Speaker 1: and one. That's a lot of movies, and seventy of 209 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, seventy of those one hundred, which is almost 210 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 1: said seventy percent, it is seventy percent failed the Bechdel test. 211 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:45,080 Speaker 1: Only thirty percent of the top one hundred movies through 212 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 1: two thousand and one passed. 213 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it kept going even beyond that though. I 214 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:52,679 Speaker 2: think that one of the examples they give is Thor 215 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:58,040 Speaker 2: colin Ragnarok, which is from twenty seventeen. It has a 216 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 2: female villain, a female superhero, so you've got a hera 217 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:07,319 Speaker 2: in Valkyrie. I think it's directed by tai Ka Ytt, 218 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:09,679 Speaker 2: and it still fills the Bechdel test. 219 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:10,680 Speaker 1: Yeah. 220 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:13,200 Speaker 2: I mean, if it was ever set up for success, 221 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:15,840 Speaker 2: that movie was set up for success, and it still 222 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:20,680 Speaker 2: didn't pass the Bechdel test because Hara and Valkyrie never 223 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:23,840 Speaker 2: speak to one another in that movie. 224 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, here's another study, and this is from twenty eighteen 225 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 1: when they looked at so you know, you wonder about, like, 226 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:33,480 Speaker 1: what about quality films? I get it if you know, 227 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 1: if some of these dumb, stupid, big action blockbusters may 228 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 1: not be as advanced or progressive, but surely these Oscar 229 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:44,839 Speaker 1: winners for Best Picture are in. The twenty eighteen study 230 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 1: from BBC found that less than half of Best Picture 231 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:54,800 Speaker 1: winners past the Bechtel test, and since twenty eighteen they've 232 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 1: done much better. There have been six films since then. 233 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:01,959 Speaker 1: In five of the six passed it. So Nomadland, Coda, 234 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:07,080 Speaker 1: Everything That Everywhere, All at Once, and Parasite and The 235 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 1: Shape of Water all passed and only Green Book failed. 236 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:16,400 Speaker 2: Tiss green Book, But also that's just Best Picture. The 237 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 2: nominees did a little a little worse in twenty twenty. 238 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 2: The Irishman nineteen seventeen and four versus Ferrari didn't come 239 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 2: close to passing. Joker Marriage Story and Once upon a 240 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:32,560 Speaker 2: Time in Hollywood, which, by the way, Joker, dude, that 241 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:34,720 Speaker 2: was such a terrible movie. Did you see it? 242 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:35,560 Speaker 1: I did. 243 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 2: I hated that movie. 244 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:37,640 Speaker 1: You did? 245 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:40,440 Speaker 2: I did? And I'm sorry anybody out there who yums it, 246 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:42,040 Speaker 2: I'm yucking it. I'm sorry about that. 247 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:44,439 Speaker 1: Now we covered this at your personal opinion. 248 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:49,079 Speaker 2: Once upon a time in Hollywood, you can make some arguments. 249 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 2: Each one has something that's like, well, yeah, that kind 250 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:53,200 Speaker 2: of is, and then somebody can say, well, it's not 251 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 2: really and then Little Women, Jojo, Rabbit, and Parasite all 252 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:00,839 Speaker 2: are definitely past the Bechdel test. 253 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:03,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean there can be, and there often are, 254 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 1: and I think it's meant to be debated. It's it 255 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:09,560 Speaker 1: can be as cut and dry as like, literally, do 256 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:12,959 Speaker 1: any two women speak right? Because people will say, like, well, 257 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 1: there's that one scene where those two even though they're 258 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:18,439 Speaker 1: named characters, it was super fast. Like I think that 259 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 1: the spirit of it is have a real sort of 260 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 1: conversation of substance, even though and again this is it's 261 00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 1: a it's an online sort of movie test thing for 262 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 1: people to argue over to a certain degree. Sure, so 263 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 1: well what we'll get, like you said, we'll get into 264 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:40,440 Speaker 1: the ins and outs of it, and I know I'll 265 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 1: start to get into that again. 266 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 2: So one really roundly man. My brain just fell out 267 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 2: of my ear about ten minutes ago, I think. Yeah, yeah, 268 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 2: one widely sighted movie that kind of shows like the 269 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 2: Bechdel Test is not all encompassing. Is Jackie Brown? 270 00:14:57,920 --> 00:14:58,360 Speaker 1: Yeah? 271 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:00,440 Speaker 2: Was that? Did Tarantino wreck that? 272 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:02,840 Speaker 1: Okay? Great? Great movie? 273 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:04,800 Speaker 2: It is a great movie. Well, it was adapted from 274 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 2: Leonard Elmore? Right? 275 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 1: Yeah? 276 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 2: Okay? Or Elmore Leonard? It was adapted from Leonard Kamma Elmore. 277 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 2: I mean, do you know how many people just went yeah, 278 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:20,200 Speaker 2: I know, I know, coolier jets everybody. So Jackie Brown 279 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:24,360 Speaker 2: has Pam Greer in it as the lead Jackie Brown 280 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:29,000 Speaker 2: and the whole movie, right, Comma, Pam, you don't forget 281 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 2: the comma. Yeah, it's like the New Colon, but she 282 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 2: plays Jackie Brown and Jackie Brown. The whole movie is 283 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 2: about Jackie Brown just being this ba who I can't remember. 284 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 2: She's like setting up this whole I think an arm 285 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 2: steal or something to help somebody get out of something. 286 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 2: Is that right? I haven't seen it in years. 287 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 1: Let's just say she's always one step ahead of the 288 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 1: man in the movie, right, So she's smarting them at 289 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 1: every turn. 290 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:59,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, to use a very tired phrase. She's a she's 291 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 2: a feminist icon in this movie, and yet throughout this 292 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 2: whole movie, she never once has a conversation with another woman. 293 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 2: So technically it fails the Bechdel test, although anybody who 294 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 2: has any kind of feminist tendencies and watch Jackie Brown 295 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:17,960 Speaker 2: probably is very happy with that movie, including Alison Bechdel 296 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:20,920 Speaker 2: as well, who said, like, I love that movie, but 297 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 2: it definitely fails a Bechdel test, but it's still a 298 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 2: really great movie. And that's something really like too important 299 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 2: to remember is just because a movie fails the Bechdel 300 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 2: test doesn't make it a bad movie. And just because 301 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:36,160 Speaker 2: a movie passes a Bechdel test certainly doesn't make it 302 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:38,920 Speaker 2: like a feminist icon type movie. 303 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. I mean there have been movies that 304 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:47,040 Speaker 1: passed that you might be very surprised, like Goodfellas. That 305 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 1: one is another debatable one, but technically that passes the 306 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 1: Bechdel test, even though you're probably like, who else besides 307 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 1: Lorraine Breco was even in Good Fellas as far as 308 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:58,480 Speaker 1: women go. But there are a few, And there's the 309 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:02,240 Speaker 1: one scene where all the mob wives get together and 310 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:05,000 Speaker 1: they're having conversations with one another, and they are named. 311 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:08,400 Speaker 1: But again it's still not like these great substantial conversations. 312 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:12,840 Speaker 2: Can I throw at another couple surprising examples? Sure, American 313 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:18,120 Speaker 2: Pie two. Yeah, Show Girls passes, and then my favorite 314 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:23,920 Speaker 2: example is Weird Science, where two horny teenage boys make 315 00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 2: a beautiful woman, literally objectify a woman, and yet two 316 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:31,959 Speaker 2: girls have a conversation about how beautiful that woman is, 317 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:34,400 Speaker 2: so it passes the Bechdel test. 318 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:40,879 Speaker 1: In some movies that are surprising that failed, Avatar James 319 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:45,960 Speaker 1: Cameron's first dive into whatever that world is. What's it called? 320 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:48,080 Speaker 2: I don't know. I still haven't seen. 321 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 1: Oh I even saw the new one, even though I 322 00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:53,240 Speaker 1: kind of bag on this movie CI World. One thing 323 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 1: to remember about Avatar is that it had a couple 324 00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:59,480 Speaker 1: of really strong female leads. It was zoe's Aldona's character 325 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 1: and of course Sigourney Weaver's character, and James Cameron historically 326 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 1: writes strong female leads from the Terminator to the Abyss, 327 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:11,800 Speaker 1: and you know, he just says a strong history of 328 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 1: working with strong female leads, and that certainly was a 329 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:19,400 Speaker 1: case in Avatar. But Zoe Seldona and Sigourney Weaver don't 330 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 1: talk to each other. Pandora. That's it on Pandora. Yeah, 331 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:26,480 Speaker 1: that's the name of the world. And there are some 332 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 1: women kind of here and there talking to each other, 333 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 1: but it sort of falls in the category of like 334 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:32,960 Speaker 1: they're not named characters. 335 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:36,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, another handful of examples that don't pass, but really 336 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 2: are still you know, they have very strong female characters 337 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:43,600 Speaker 2: and well defined ones La La Land. Oh yeah, Arrival. 338 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:46,720 Speaker 2: I think that's Amy Adams, right, Yeah, great movie. Yeah, 339 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:51,920 Speaker 2: it really is. Girl with the Dragon Tattoo. Gravity didn't 340 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:55,879 Speaker 2: talk to anyone though, No, that's true, but Gravity. Yeah, 341 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:58,720 Speaker 2: that whole movie is just basically Sandra Bullock trying to 342 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 2: figure out what the heck to do in space. Yeah, 343 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 2: and the reason why is like that it doesn't pass 344 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:07,840 Speaker 2: the Bechdel test because there's basically no other female characters. 345 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:10,720 Speaker 2: But there's almost no other characters at all anyway. 346 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:12,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, just clooney basically. 347 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:16,639 Speaker 2: Yeah. So it's not exactly like a perfect measure, but 348 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:20,639 Speaker 2: the point is is to say, like, again, this is 349 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:24,679 Speaker 2: a really low barrow we're setting here, and yet most 350 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:29,400 Speaker 2: movies don't pass this test, So what are we doing here? Everybody? 351 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:32,680 Speaker 2: That's really ultimately the point and purpose of the Bechdel test. 352 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:35,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, can I name a couple of others? 353 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, this is one of the fun parts for sure, since. 354 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:40,680 Speaker 1: We're just naming movies. A movie that passed two movies 355 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:45,560 Speaker 1: that pass one is Hitchcock's Rear Window. Hitchcock, on the 356 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:49,160 Speaker 1: other hand, of James Cameron, is known for having very 357 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:52,879 Speaker 1: problematic relationships with his leading ladies off screen. Oh yeah, 358 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 1: that you know, border well on that border on, that 359 00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:59,080 Speaker 1: delve into psychological abuse of these women, you know, to 360 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:02,760 Speaker 1: try and get a performance out of them. He has 361 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 1: has cast a lot of female leads, but I wouldn't 362 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:08,119 Speaker 1: necessarily say that he has ever been known as like 363 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:14,000 Speaker 1: a feminist filmmaker. But Rear Window has a pretty good 364 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:19,200 Speaker 1: like subplot of Grace Kelly's character Lisa and Thelma Ritter 365 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 1: Ridder's character Stella, who's the nurse to Jimmy Stewart, sort 366 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:27,399 Speaker 1: of getting together to investigate this crime. You know. The 367 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:30,240 Speaker 1: whole premise of Rear Window is that they have witnessed 368 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:35,000 Speaker 1: a crime out of the window looking into another window 369 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 1: of these like New York apartments where you can kind 370 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 1: of everyone sees each other all the time, right, and 371 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 1: so they kind of team up as investigators, which you 372 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:45,400 Speaker 1: know wasn't the most common thing back then. 373 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:48,200 Speaker 2: No, And I think that's another thing that the Bechdel 374 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:51,959 Speaker 2: Test reminds us is that things are more complicated and 375 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:58,120 Speaker 2: nuanced and layered than something like past fail pro feminist 376 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 2: anti feminists like things. Things are often a lot more 377 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 2: wrapped up in a lot more wax than it appears 378 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:09,399 Speaker 2: on the surface. And also, I think one of the 379 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 2: other things that reminds us is like, just say, because 380 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:17,600 Speaker 2: of the person Alfred Hitchcock was off screen, doesn't mean 381 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:20,439 Speaker 2: that the movies that he made didn't have strong female 382 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:23,919 Speaker 2: characters and can't be enjoyed for that reason too, you know. 383 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:26,399 Speaker 2: And also I want to go on record, I'm just 384 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:29,400 Speaker 2: going to put myself out there. Weird Science is a 385 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:31,680 Speaker 2: great movie. 386 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:34,919 Speaker 1: I haven't seen in a long time. I loved it 387 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:35,320 Speaker 1: back then. 388 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 2: I saw a couple of years and it's I think 389 00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:41,760 Speaker 2: better now than it was when I was a kid. 390 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:46,119 Speaker 1: What was that weird deal in that movie? Though? Where 391 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 1: the uh the guy from the Hills have Eyes and 392 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:50,679 Speaker 1: the bikers crashed that party. 393 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:56,280 Speaker 2: I think they they left the little thing that brings 394 00:21:57,119 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 2: whatever they want to life. I think on some mad 395 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 2: or something like that or maybe on the movie. 396 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:06,720 Speaker 1: So that was explain Yeah, I think I just don't 397 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:07,119 Speaker 1: remember that. 398 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 2: It's not explained. They just show what's happening and then 399 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:12,040 Speaker 2: those guys show up and I don't remember where they 400 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:14,680 Speaker 2: came from. But it wasn't just out of. 401 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:17,160 Speaker 1: The blue, all right. I think I kind of remember that. Now, 402 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:22,080 Speaker 1: Now do you like the movie? It's perfect? Well. I 403 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 1: had had a big thing for. 404 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 2: Kelly Lebron. 405 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 1: Kelly Lebron, dude, did not. I mean if you're if 406 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:31,920 Speaker 1: you were a boy in the eighties, and I'm sure 407 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:34,399 Speaker 1: plenty of girls in the eighties and you saw Weird 408 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 1: Science and the Woman in Red, the great Gene Wilder movie, 409 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:39,520 Speaker 1: then you probably had a thing for Kelly Lebron. 410 00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:41,320 Speaker 2: Yes, agreed. 411 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:44,960 Speaker 1: The other movie I wanted to mention that passed that is, 412 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 1: I guess sort of surprising is Guardians of the Galaxy. 413 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:50,480 Speaker 1: Because Marvel has sort of long been known in the 414 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:54,960 Speaker 1: Marvel or rather the Marvel cinematic universe, as not really 415 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:58,200 Speaker 1: being super inclusive as far as women go. It's gotten 416 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 1: better in recent years. There are plenty of Marvel characters 417 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:05,680 Speaker 1: from the comics that were overlooked when it came movie making. Time, 418 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:08,480 Speaker 1: but they have since like kind of been working those 419 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:13,479 Speaker 1: into the rotation. But and Guardians the first Guardians, and 420 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 1: I think one of the most sort of complex relationship 421 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:21,800 Speaker 1: arcs in any of the MCU is between Gomora and 422 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 1: Nebula for sure, really rich, good emotional character arcs and 423 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 1: interactions for them. 424 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:30,520 Speaker 2: I have no idea what you're just talking about, but 425 00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:33,040 Speaker 2: I'll take it on face that you know what you're saying. 426 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 1: I do, and it's I'm not going to ruin in 427 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:39,600 Speaker 1: case anyone hasn't seen those, but the basis for the 428 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:42,160 Speaker 1: emotion of their relationship. But it's real stuff. 429 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:45,720 Speaker 2: Okay, great, I've even seeing Guardians of the Galaxy and 430 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:49,080 Speaker 2: I still have no idea what you're talking about. But again, 431 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:53,000 Speaker 2: way to go, Chuck, I say, Also, what do you 432 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:54,720 Speaker 2: think about taking a second break? 433 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:55,560 Speaker 1: Yeah? Why not? 434 00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:57,480 Speaker 2: Why not. 435 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 1: Learn and stuff with Joshua John stuff Fu, shine up. 436 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:23,480 Speaker 2: Josh Si. 437 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:32,399 Speaker 1: All Right, So now we're kind of done just talking 438 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,000 Speaker 1: about movies and whether or not they passed or failed. 439 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:38,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, let's talk about the background, the backdrop, the context. 440 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:41,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, and whether or not it's an outdated test and 441 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:44,720 Speaker 1: are there better ways to go about this? There have 442 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:47,640 Speaker 1: been people that have written about sort of the time 443 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:50,959 Speaker 1: period in nineteen eighty five when the Bechdel test was 444 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:55,080 Speaker 1: invented in this cartoon, and nineteen eighty five wasn't the 445 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 1: most feminist pro woman time in the United States history. 446 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:03,440 Speaker 1: At some point, we're going to do podcast on feminism 447 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:06,160 Speaker 1: in general in the different waves. But it just kind 448 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:08,119 Speaker 1: of ebbed and flowed over the years as far as 449 00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:13,720 Speaker 1: its popularity and just visibility in the zeitgeist. And the 450 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:16,560 Speaker 1: seventies was a time where it was kind of happening 451 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:21,200 Speaker 1: feminist wise. There were a long list of really good 452 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 1: female centric movie dramas that were made, and that was 453 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:28,600 Speaker 1: not the case in nineteen eighty five at all. 454 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:32,440 Speaker 2: I take issue with that. You've got nine to five 455 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:36,840 Speaker 2: from the early eighties. There's one Working Girl with Melanie 456 00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:41,040 Speaker 2: Griffith in like eighty eight two, Diane Keaton Baby Boom, 457 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:45,760 Speaker 2: and like maybe eighty six, eighty seven three. I could 458 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,120 Speaker 2: go on. That's just literally off the top of my head. 459 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:51,560 Speaker 2: It's not like I researched like feminists or strong female 460 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:54,359 Speaker 2: lead movies in the eighties. I like, that's off the 461 00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:58,199 Speaker 2: top of my head, all right, So I disagree. I 462 00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:01,879 Speaker 2: get that, like that's the that's the way it's thought 463 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:04,160 Speaker 2: of is like, yes, it was much stronger in the seventies, 464 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,879 Speaker 2: and yes they probably were a little more, had a 465 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:10,879 Speaker 2: little more depth, but that's just because everybody was on 466 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:14,800 Speaker 2: so much cocaine in the eighties. No one had any depth. 467 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 1: Than that decade, more depth than Baby Boom. 468 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:20,200 Speaker 2: That was a good movie. 469 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 1: Oh like Baby Boom. I love Dyane Keith oh Man. 470 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:23,760 Speaker 2: How could you not? 471 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:27,639 Speaker 1: But the point is, except for you, most people agree 472 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:31,359 Speaker 1: that the mid eighties wasn't you know, high time for 473 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:34,680 Speaker 1: women in film, and so that's when the test was created. 474 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:38,760 Speaker 1: So kind of keep that in mind. And you know, 475 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:41,080 Speaker 1: like you mentioned the past fail thing, there have been 476 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:44,200 Speaker 1: plenty of people that said, you know, there are all 477 00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:49,199 Speaker 1: kinds of other issues with women in film that have 478 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:52,160 Speaker 1: real meat on the bone that we should really look 479 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:56,399 Speaker 1: at then whether or not, you know, there was just 480 00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:58,560 Speaker 1: a scene with two women talking to each other, right, 481 00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 1: not about men. There was this one writer, what is 482 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:06,960 Speaker 1: her name? It is Martha Lausen from San Diego State 483 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:10,879 Speaker 1: University's Center for the Study of Women in Television Film, 484 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,000 Speaker 1: in an article called Moving Beyond the Bechtel Test, where 485 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 1: she basically says, like uses gravity as an example and saying, 486 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:22,119 Speaker 1: you know, a movie like that fails because you know, 487 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:24,320 Speaker 1: she didn't talk to other women in the movie. But 488 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:28,399 Speaker 1: American Hustle Will Pass, which has very sexualized portrayals of women, 489 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:31,520 Speaker 1: And she's right about all this. The only thing that 490 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:34,159 Speaker 1: I will say is that to me, I think she 491 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:38,120 Speaker 1: diminishes a little bit the value of just sort of 492 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 1: how a test like this can be become really popular 493 00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:43,440 Speaker 1: and get the conversation going. 494 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:46,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I was surprised that she was taking shots at it. 495 00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:49,080 Speaker 2: She's saying, like the test that's the lowest possible bar 496 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:52,399 Speaker 2: for assessing the quality of portrayals of female characters. It 497 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:56,359 Speaker 2: does the point. Yeah, it's exactly saying like here, everybody 498 00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:59,480 Speaker 2: like you can anybody can step over this, and yet 499 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:01,840 Speaker 2: everybody can keeps tripping up on it. And then yeah, 500 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:04,439 Speaker 2: I think that's a really great point. Like we're we 501 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:06,840 Speaker 2: have a we're releasing an episode on this. Without the 502 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,320 Speaker 2: Bechdel Test, I'm not sure we would have found some 503 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:11,919 Speaker 2: entry point into this. You know, we might not have 504 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:15,320 Speaker 2: been thinking about it in any real way at least me. 505 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 2: I don't know about you, but like, I have never 506 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 2: really noticed crowd scenes like that before or that the 507 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:24,119 Speaker 2: doctor is always a guy. And now that this that 508 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:26,120 Speaker 2: I've heard of this and done this research and talk 509 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:28,520 Speaker 2: to you about this, I'm fully aware of it and 510 00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:30,480 Speaker 2: I can't wait to see my next crowd scene in 511 00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 2: a movie, and I can be like, oh, man, what 512 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:34,479 Speaker 2: is this crud? 513 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:36,400 Speaker 1: What is that a Rush concert? 514 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:43,560 Speaker 2: So, yeah, man, that is so true, and yeah, Rush 515 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:44,440 Speaker 2: is a great band. 516 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:47,920 Speaker 1: Well, you know, to me, the idea is that it's 517 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:51,520 Speaker 1: a conversation starter, and then it leads to the conversation 518 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:55,200 Speaker 1: of like, hey, maybe let's look at how women are 519 00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 1: really portrayed in a movie. Let's look at the fact that, 520 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:02,240 Speaker 1: you know, scenes of sexual assa are just and it's 521 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 1: getting better, but like, historically, we're just sort of routinely 522 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:09,800 Speaker 1: tossed in there as plot devices or like, you know, 523 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:16,200 Speaker 1: Lloyd Dobbler standing outside of ione Sky's window with a 524 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 1: boombox after he's been told to leave is stalking, right. 525 00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:23,960 Speaker 1: I know, it's a romantic comedy and that's people might say, like, oh, 526 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:27,320 Speaker 1: don't take it that seriously, but stalking historically in movies 527 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:30,720 Speaker 1: is portrayed as like, you know, the guy that just 528 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:33,000 Speaker 1: won't say no because it's so romantic. 529 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:36,800 Speaker 2: Right, it's true. And then also like in the actual 530 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 2: like casting of older women, that it gets harder and 531 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:44,640 Speaker 2: harder after a certain age to like get work. 532 00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:46,280 Speaker 1: And then it's like older than thirty one. 533 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,720 Speaker 2: Right, And if you do get work, it's very stereotypical work. 534 00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 2: You're probably tired or beat or maybe bitter from having 535 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:58,239 Speaker 2: been left by her husband. There's a lot to be 536 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:02,480 Speaker 2: left to be desired with how women are portrayed and 537 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:08,680 Speaker 2: treated in Hollywood. And so to just raise everyone's consciousness 538 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:11,320 Speaker 2: about this, that's it's it's a great tool for that. 539 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 2: There's one other thing, Chuck, that I ran across in 540 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,680 Speaker 2: this research that I wasn't aware of before. Geena Davis, 541 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:20,200 Speaker 2: who I thought was one of the most charming people 542 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:23,640 Speaker 2: I've ever met. I actually haven't met her. I don't 543 00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:28,040 Speaker 2: know why. I just said that one of the most right. 544 00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 2: And it's funny, like if you go back and look 545 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:33,440 Speaker 2: at the fly and then you just watch like interviews 546 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:36,320 Speaker 2: with Jeff Goldbloom and you watch interviews with Geena Davis, 547 00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:39,600 Speaker 2: they're the same person, one in the same They're like 548 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 2: two sides of the same coin. It's very interesting to see, 549 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:45,120 Speaker 2: what do you mean they they talk the same way 550 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:47,680 Speaker 2: they behave, the same way, they think, the same way 551 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 2: they really Yes, they're very similar personality wise, interesting, very clever, 552 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:57,479 Speaker 2: very smart, very funny, very self deprecating. She yes, she is. 553 00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:02,040 Speaker 2: So I was watching a talk that she gave at 554 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:04,440 Speaker 2: Rutgers in twenty twelve that I was tipped off to 555 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:06,680 Speaker 2: by Kate Hagen in a five thirty eight. 556 00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 1: Article I mentioned Davis. 557 00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:11,920 Speaker 2: No the opposite. 558 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:13,600 Speaker 1: Oh okay, she found it. 559 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:17,960 Speaker 2: She founded a study or an institute that studies gender 560 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:22,280 Speaker 2: and media. And she's walking around like telling people like hey, 561 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:25,120 Speaker 2: and talking to producers like she's she's going to the 562 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:27,680 Speaker 2: source and saying like, have you ever noticed like all 563 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:31,280 Speaker 2: doctors are men? Or my institute did a study and 564 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:35,320 Speaker 2: of the six thousand films that were released between two 565 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:37,360 Speaker 2: thousand and six and two thousand and nine, not a 566 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:39,840 Speaker 2: single one of them showed a woman in any actual 567 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:42,760 Speaker 2: like position of power, like a president or something like that. 568 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:45,920 Speaker 2: Like she founded an institute that studies this and then 569 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,400 Speaker 2: is actually trying to do something about it. So it's 570 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:50,960 Speaker 2: a pretty charming talk. It's only like a half hour long, 571 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:56,120 Speaker 2: but it's it's I can't remember. Just look up Geena Davis, 572 00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:59,960 Speaker 2: Rutgers twenty twelve and you'll see it. But she really 573 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:03,760 Speaker 2: points out some really surprising stuff. So she's out there 574 00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:07,040 Speaker 2: pointing this out too and studying it. And like, I think, 575 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:09,840 Speaker 2: the more you can come up with like statistics, right, 576 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:11,600 Speaker 2: the more you can convince people to kind of open 577 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:13,480 Speaker 2: their eyes. And the more they open their eyes, the 578 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:16,120 Speaker 2: more you just again, like k Hagen said, you can't 579 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:16,760 Speaker 2: unsee it. 580 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:19,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, boy, I'm glad it went that way. The way 581 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:22,680 Speaker 1: you set it up, it sounded like you were like, 582 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:26,720 Speaker 1: Geena Davis was someone I thought I loved until. 583 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:30,880 Speaker 2: No, you thought you loved her, and even more now she. 584 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:34,040 Speaker 1: Was on our buddy Jesse Thorn had her on his 585 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:38,000 Speaker 1: great interview show Bullseye with Jesse Thorn, and he said 586 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,200 Speaker 1: that asked her was like, oh man, what was Geena 587 00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:44,240 Speaker 1: Davis like? And he said she was like the coolest 588 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:47,520 Speaker 1: aunt you've ever had, And he said the whole office 589 00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:49,400 Speaker 1: was just like in love with Geena Davis by the 590 00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:49,920 Speaker 1: end of the day. 591 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:52,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, you told them, and I have to follow it 592 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:55,320 Speaker 2: up every time I've heard that she bakes cookies and 593 00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:57,120 Speaker 2: brings them to meetings. 594 00:32:57,680 --> 00:32:59,120 Speaker 1: Wow, is there anything she can't do? 595 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:01,440 Speaker 2: I don't think so. 596 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:06,400 Speaker 1: So in twenty seventeen, there was so you know, basically 597 00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:08,040 Speaker 1: the idea of like should we come up with something 598 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:10,840 Speaker 1: better than the Bechtel test has come up plenty of times. 599 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:15,600 Speaker 1: In twenty seventeen five point thirty eight, the website had 600 00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:17,360 Speaker 1: a campaign where they said, maybe let's try and come 601 00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:19,760 Speaker 1: up with something new. Let's get a dozen women in 602 00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:23,680 Speaker 1: the industry in here to talk about this stuff. And 603 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:27,520 Speaker 1: some of the things that are said, like are surprising, 604 00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:31,000 Speaker 1: but it's like, really, is it that hard to cast 605 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:36,920 Speaker 1: a movie, for instance, where there is a black woman 606 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:40,400 Speaker 1: who is the lead in a movie, that has a 607 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:42,800 Speaker 1: position of power in the movie and that has a 608 00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:47,360 Speaker 1: healthy relationship, and this is what Emmy winner. She's a 609 00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:50,640 Speaker 1: writer named Lena waithe said, can like we just do that? 610 00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:56,800 Speaker 1: Another actor named Rory Uphold said, you know what about 611 00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:58,960 Speaker 1: these film crews? Can we have film crews that are 612 00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:04,560 Speaker 1: fifty percent women? That's a lot tougher, I think you 613 00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:08,239 Speaker 1: and I've been on film cruise. Film cruise historically. 614 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:09,040 Speaker 2: There's sausage parties. 615 00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:13,200 Speaker 1: Well, there are departments that are just sort of historically 616 00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:15,640 Speaker 1: one or the other, Like you know, hair and makeup 617 00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:18,760 Speaker 1: is almost always women. A script supervisor for some reasons. 618 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,600 Speaker 2: Always one, yeah, you know who established that hitchcock? 619 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:28,759 Speaker 1: Yeah? Probably? So what else? Casting is usually women are 620 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:32,200 Speaker 1: casting directors, which is interesting. There's a lot of departments 621 00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:35,520 Speaker 1: that are sort of split, like the art department. A 622 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:38,800 Speaker 1: lot of times you'll have men and women camera department. 623 00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:41,000 Speaker 1: More and more it used to be very historically male, 624 00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:43,600 Speaker 1: but a lot more women in the camera department now 625 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:46,640 Speaker 1: in production departments, and then you have like the grip 626 00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:52,520 Speaker 1: and electric departments transportation that are ninety five percent men. 627 00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:55,279 Speaker 1: Every once in a while, I would work with a 628 00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:57,640 Speaker 1: woman that was like a grip or a key grip 629 00:34:57,680 --> 00:34:59,279 Speaker 1: or a gaffer or something, and it was always like, 630 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:02,680 Speaker 1: oh wow, that's super awesome. And it was like super noticeable, 631 00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:05,920 Speaker 1: that's how rare it was. And it's just, you know, 632 00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:09,960 Speaker 1: it's interesting when I thought about this one specifically, like 633 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:13,000 Speaker 1: fifty percent women on film crew. It's sort of that 634 00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:15,759 Speaker 1: problem of like you can't get the job unless you 635 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:18,120 Speaker 1: have the experience, and you can't get the experience unless 636 00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:18,640 Speaker 1: you have the job. 637 00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:20,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a terrible catch. Twenty two. 638 00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:21,760 Speaker 1: It's a terrible one. 639 00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:25,279 Speaker 2: I saw that five point thirty eight article and they 640 00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:30,440 Speaker 2: basically took the dozen plus women their suggestions, and they 641 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:33,400 Speaker 2: could break them down into four categories. Behind the camera, 642 00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:36,279 Speaker 2: which is what you were just talking about, intersectional, which 643 00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:41,719 Speaker 2: is saying like a black woman protagonist, or the protagonists 644 00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:46,080 Speaker 2: themselves they just having a woman protagonist, and then the 645 00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:49,000 Speaker 2: supporting cast things like the doctor being a woman or 646 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:52,440 Speaker 2: the president being a woman. And some passed more than others, 647 00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:55,760 Speaker 2: but the one that did the most dismally was behind 648 00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:58,759 Speaker 2: the camera. Oh sure, like in the actual act of 649 00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:02,560 Speaker 2: making movies, it is. It's just not They're just women 650 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:05,920 Speaker 2: are not well represented at least right now. But I 651 00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:08,520 Speaker 2: think the fact that we're talking about it, things change 652 00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:10,080 Speaker 2: when people talk about stuff, you know. 653 00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:13,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it has been changing on film crews, you know, 654 00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:15,960 Speaker 1: little by little, especially in more recent years. You see 655 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:20,799 Speaker 1: more women directing movies than ever before. Still percentage wise, 656 00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:23,800 Speaker 1: way low, obviously, but it is getting better. 657 00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:26,239 Speaker 2: And when that happens, when women direct movies, they found 658 00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:30,640 Speaker 2: that female speaking characters jumped to forty seven point six percent, 659 00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:34,799 Speaker 2: up from thirty three point one percent for alles overall. Yeah. 660 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:38,040 Speaker 1: Yeah. There are some more tests that have popped up 661 00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:41,279 Speaker 1: online that are some of these are just kind of 662 00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:45,879 Speaker 1: fun and funny. The Maco Moriy test from Pacific Rim. 663 00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:49,920 Speaker 1: One of the characters in Pacific Rim is all films 664 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:52,719 Speaker 1: have at least one female character who has her own 665 00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:56,440 Speaker 1: narrative arc and doesn't exist only to support a man's story, 666 00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:59,480 Speaker 1: So that one's just a little more robust. I think 667 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:03,280 Speaker 1: the cut and dryness of Bechtel, And then I thought 668 00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:07,480 Speaker 1: the sexy lamp test was very funny. This is from 669 00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:11,400 Speaker 1: a writer named Kelly Sue Deaconic and said if you can, 670 00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:14,280 Speaker 1: if you can remove a female character from your plot 671 00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:17,080 Speaker 1: and replace her with a sexy lamp and your story 672 00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:18,759 Speaker 1: still works, then you're a hack. 673 00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:19,879 Speaker 2: It's pretty great. 674 00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:21,160 Speaker 1: I love that one. 675 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:25,480 Speaker 2: So there are some things that you can do if 676 00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:27,520 Speaker 2: you want to kind of help move this along, and 677 00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:30,520 Speaker 2: one is vote with your feet where if you are, 678 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:34,880 Speaker 2: if you're a woman or a man and you're concerned 679 00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:36,879 Speaker 2: by this kind of thing, and just don't go see 680 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:39,719 Speaker 2: movies that don't pass some tests that's important to you, 681 00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:44,200 Speaker 2: whether it's a Bechdel test or something else. Hollywood will 682 00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:47,680 Speaker 2: get the point very quickly in that respect. And then 683 00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:52,840 Speaker 2: apparently in some movie theaters in Sweden they actually assign 684 00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:56,520 Speaker 2: ratings to films based on gender bias. If it has 685 00:37:56,560 --> 00:37:59,000 Speaker 2: an a. It means that it passed the Bechdel test 686 00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:01,920 Speaker 2: at least. And I think that's good. I think that's 687 00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:06,040 Speaker 2: very cool that the idea of like kind of plucking 688 00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:11,920 Speaker 2: women out of this bizarre non person status that they 689 00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:14,680 Speaker 2: often find themselves in in movies, or they're meant to 690 00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:17,239 Speaker 2: like move the plot along for or the man or 691 00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:19,799 Speaker 2: something like that. Like, how could we not benefit from that? 692 00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:22,360 Speaker 2: It just make everything a lot richer. It make movies 693 00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:23,440 Speaker 2: a lot richer too. 694 00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:25,799 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I mean one of the great things 695 00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:28,759 Speaker 1: about movies has seen perspectives of people that aren't like 696 00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:31,440 Speaker 1: you right exactly, you know, But it's. 697 00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:34,359 Speaker 2: Just trying it out too, in the privacy of your 698 00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:36,080 Speaker 2: own home, so you can try it on for size 699 00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:38,160 Speaker 2: and see if you like it without making a commitment. 700 00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:39,560 Speaker 2: That's the great thing about it. 701 00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:43,160 Speaker 1: I did mention that, you know, there are more women 702 00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:46,080 Speaker 1: directing movies these days than ever before, which is true. 703 00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:50,399 Speaker 1: But here's some some final statistics for you, again from 704 00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:52,600 Speaker 1: the us c's and Enburg Report, and this one was 705 00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:57,239 Speaker 1: from twenty twenty three, talking about twenty twenty two, and 706 00:38:57,280 --> 00:38:59,719 Speaker 1: out of the one hundred highest grossing movies of twenty 707 00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:03,960 Speaker 1: twenty to nine, percent were directed by women and two 708 00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:08,520 Speaker 1: point seven percent by women of color. And this is 709 00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:10,719 Speaker 1: you know, this has changed some over the years. I 710 00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:14,040 Speaker 1: think there was one statistic that showed one hundred percent 711 00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:17,520 Speaker 1: increase from twenty five years ago, but it's still less 712 00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:21,480 Speaker 1: than a fifth of the biggest movies are directed by women. 713 00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:25,040 Speaker 1: And you know, the Bechdel test is, if you apply 714 00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:29,319 Speaker 1: this to independent film, then numbers skewed pretty differently because 715 00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:32,600 Speaker 1: independent film is where you're going to find more quality 716 00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:36,960 Speaker 1: scenes of dialogue between women, and in fact, a lot 717 00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:40,239 Speaker 1: of independent films are all about that, and a lot 718 00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:43,920 Speaker 1: of independent films are directed by women. So this is 719 00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:47,000 Speaker 1: sort of the big Hollywood movies that we're mainly talking about. 720 00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:51,000 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, which makes one more point to make two. 721 00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:53,520 Speaker 2: That makes a huge difference because those are the movies 722 00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:56,759 Speaker 2: that most people see. And if you're raising kids on 723 00:39:56,800 --> 00:40:01,080 Speaker 2: this unconscious idea that doctors are men, presidents are men, 724 00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:05,719 Speaker 2: soldiers are men, then that's what they expect reality to 725 00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:08,480 Speaker 2: be too, and that makes reality that way. It's it's 726 00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:11,080 Speaker 2: life imitating art, but in a really negative way. 727 00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:15,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, and for better conversations in this, go check out 728 00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:18,920 Speaker 1: the bech Del Cast. Yes, well, put Chuck, it's great. 729 00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:21,440 Speaker 1: And by the way, we should just mention that we 730 00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:24,239 Speaker 1: don't have to get into it. But TV, historically and 731 00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:26,279 Speaker 1: still has always done a much better job at this 732 00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:27,200 Speaker 1: kind of thing than movies. 733 00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:28,959 Speaker 2: Yeah, have you seen One Day at a Time. 734 00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:33,080 Speaker 1: There's been a lot of great TV shows from back 735 00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:35,240 Speaker 1: then that were, you know, very female centric. 736 00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:40,160 Speaker 2: You got Alice, Got Alice, that's it, Alice in One 737 00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:42,520 Speaker 2: Day at a Time Carol Burnett's show. 738 00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:44,440 Speaker 1: Oh, she's great. 739 00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:48,120 Speaker 2: Well, since Chuck just sighed heavily, it shows that he's 740 00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:50,480 Speaker 2: ready to be done, which means that it's time for 741 00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:51,200 Speaker 2: listener mail. 742 00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:55,319 Speaker 1: That was a wistful Carol Burnett's side. 743 00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:57,560 Speaker 2: Okay, good, thanks for specifying. 744 00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:00,359 Speaker 1: So in lieu of listener Male today because a bunch 745 00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:04,000 Speaker 1: of people that write in we just want to acknowledge 746 00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:06,520 Speaker 1: the passing of Gordon Lightfoot. 747 00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:09,239 Speaker 2: Oh nice work, Chuck passed. 748 00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:12,960 Speaker 1: Away got the news today actually on recording day ironically, 749 00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:17,239 Speaker 1: just what five days before we're going to be performing 750 00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:20,759 Speaker 1: in Canada at wouldn't it Gordon Lightfoot's home theater. 751 00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:24,640 Speaker 2: Yes, Massey Hall is his home away from home. 752 00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:29,560 Speaker 1: That's right, So I knew. I still don't like the 753 00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:32,520 Speaker 1: song The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald. But Gordon Lightfoot 754 00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:34,320 Speaker 1: certainly meant a lot to a lot of people, certainly 755 00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:37,399 Speaker 1: a lot of Canadians, and we didn't want to let 756 00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:41,920 Speaker 1: this let this one go without saying rest in peace, Concer. 757 00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:45,600 Speaker 2: Rest in peace, Gordon Lightfoot. Very nice, Chuck. I think 758 00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:47,480 Speaker 2: that's a great stand in for a listener mail. 759 00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:48,160 Speaker 1: Great. 760 00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:49,879 Speaker 2: Do you want to send us a listener mail? We'd 761 00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:52,000 Speaker 2: love to hear from you. You can send it via 762 00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:57,040 Speaker 2: email to stuff podcast at iHeartRadio dot com. 763 00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:01,480 Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For 764 00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:05,719 Speaker 1: more podcasts myheart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 765 00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:07,680 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.