1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:03,120 Speaker 1: Live from our nations. This budget thing is going to 2 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:05,920 Speaker 1: do nothing space forts. I still think it's interesting President 3 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:09,639 Speaker 1: Trump not playing his cards yet. Headlines policy and politics 4 00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:14,960 Speaker 1: colliding Floomberg sound on, the Insiders, the influencers, the insides. 5 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:17,319 Speaker 1: I would rather see a congressional solution. It's part of 6 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:20,520 Speaker 1: my DNA. The Senate map in looks a lot different 7 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:22,880 Speaker 1: than it looked in. President Trump was sent here to 8 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:26,480 Speaker 1: smash conventional norms in a sense Bernie Sanders has already was. 9 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:31,640 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Sound On with Kevin Surreley on Bloomberg 10 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:35,280 Speaker 1: one oh five point seven a m h D two. 11 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 1: I'm Greg's story in for Kevin Sireli. The impeachment trial 12 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 1: is underway in the Senate, with counsel from both sides 13 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:46,920 Speaker 1: making opening statements for the White House Attorney Jay Seculo 14 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 1: accused the House of trying to have President Trump removed 15 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 1: from office simply because they dislike him. Why are we here? 16 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:57,520 Speaker 1: Are we here because of a phone call? We are 17 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 1: we here before this great body we call. Since the 18 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:03,800 Speaker 1: President was sworn into office, there was a desire to 19 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:07,039 Speaker 1: see him removed. With me here in the Bloomberg ninety 20 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: nine student point one studio, Rick Davis, Bloomberg contributor and 21 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 1: former national campaign manager for John McCain's presidential campaign in 22 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:18,520 Speaker 1: two thousand and two thousand eight, and Bloomberg News is 23 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 1: Washington Bureau chief Craig Gordon. Thanks to both of you 24 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:24,399 Speaker 1: for being here. Um, Craig, let me start with you 25 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:27,920 Speaker 1: give us the day's headline for people who weren't glued 26 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:30,959 Speaker 1: to their TVs today? Hey, what what did they miss? Oh? 27 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:33,320 Speaker 1: There wasn't much of a headline today. They did. The 28 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 1: Republicans did allow the changes to be made to the 29 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:39,560 Speaker 1: scheduling that McConnell had asked for. He wanted a very 30 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:42,960 Speaker 1: aggressive schedule to twenty four hour two days. It would 31 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:44,920 Speaker 1: be sort of twelve hours apiece, twenty four hours over 32 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 1: two days. Even the Republicans in the Senate didn't much 33 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 1: care for that idea and sort of shot that down. 34 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 1: They also did introduce the documents from sort of the 35 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 1: House you know, inquiry have already been now introduced into 36 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 1: the record of the Senate. So these are pretty small 37 00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 1: procedural items, frankly, but they are they are giving a 38 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 1: sense that at least the Senate is open to trying 39 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:05,040 Speaker 1: to make the process a little more amenable, um for 40 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 1: themselves frankly, but as far as headlines today, there was 41 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:12,519 Speaker 1: a lot of sound, not much light, pretty procedural. Rick. 42 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 1: We did hear, if not the opening statements, we heard 43 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:18,400 Speaker 1: some snippets of things. We're gonna hear a lot over 44 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 1: the next few days. And White House Council Patrick Sipoloni 45 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:26,080 Speaker 1: uh said that Donald Trump has done absolutely nothing wrong. 46 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 1: He called the impeachment articles ridiculous. Um. It is the 47 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:34,799 Speaker 1: kind of scorched earth defense we've been hearing. Um. How 48 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 1: do you think that sort of big defense is gonna 49 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:40,359 Speaker 1: go over in this trial? You know? Look, I mean, 50 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 1: I think it's always been the administration's point of view 51 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 1: on virtually any controversy to stonewall right, it's sort of 52 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:48,800 Speaker 1: standard operating procedure for them, and this is no exception. 53 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 1: So I would anticipate that they will never blank. The 54 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:56,639 Speaker 1: lawyers for Donald Trump will take a very hard line 55 00:02:56,680 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 1: approach that this is completely unwarranted as trying to run 56 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 1: move a duly elected present from office in an extraordinary fashion, 57 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 1: and that it's a waste of time for the United 58 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 1: States Senate. I think on the Democrats side, you're gonna 59 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:11,919 Speaker 1: hear a lot about we need witnesses, we want more evidence. Uh, 60 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 1: they're they're gonna have a completely different narrative. And I 61 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:17,120 Speaker 1: think what we saw when this opened up today and 62 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:21,919 Speaker 1: the message from Leader McConnell versus the message from Senator 63 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:25,079 Speaker 1: Schumer was we really don't care what each others are doing. 64 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:27,919 Speaker 1: We've got our own agenda. We're going to execute our agenda. 65 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 1: In the process of that happening, there'll be an impeachment trial, 66 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 1: but the two will not likely intersect in any positive fashion. Craig, 67 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 1: One of the themes that we we have going on 68 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:42,360 Speaker 1: here is Republicans trying to get this over quickly, Democrats 69 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:47,120 Speaker 1: wanting a more let's say, thorough process. And those changes 70 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:50,760 Speaker 1: from Mitch McConnell that you mentioned included originally these opening statements, 71 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:52,720 Speaker 1: we're gonna happen over the course of three days or 72 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 1: two days, excuse me, and potentially go to like one 73 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 1: o'clock in the morning, and now they're going to be 74 00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 1: three days and presumably not uh go quite so late. 75 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 1: What do you make of that? Is that, um, you know, 76 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:06,840 Speaker 1: a sign that that Mitch McConnell had to give it 77 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 1: on something important. Yeah, I think McConnell is trying to 78 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 1: run this through pretty quickly. Um, I think a lot 79 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 1: of up senators would be fine with that, but you know, 80 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:17,159 Speaker 1: sort of within limits. This literally have the potential to 81 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:20,040 Speaker 1: keep senators there in their seats until one in the morning. 82 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:22,320 Speaker 1: And I'm sure people have been following some of the rules. 83 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:25,040 Speaker 1: They can't have food, they can have milk or water, 84 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 1: I guess are allowed to have milk too, but no 85 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:30,719 Speaker 1: cell phones, no contact with the outside world basically, And 86 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:32,480 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, that's a pretty long day esupposed to be 87 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 1: for some of our senators who are shall we sell 88 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:37,600 Speaker 1: getting up there. But I'm kind of with Rick on this. 89 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:39,800 Speaker 1: Both sides are going to kind of talk past each other. 90 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:42,160 Speaker 1: They're gonna, you know, sort of talk at each other, 91 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:45,479 Speaker 1: Trump side saying he did nothing wrong, Democrats saying, you know, 92 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 1: at the end of the republic. I think what's interesting 93 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:49,719 Speaker 1: to me is the public is pretty much the same way. 94 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:51,760 Speaker 1: If you like Donald Trump, you think this is a sham. 95 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 1: And if you don't like Donald Trump, they you think 96 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:55,719 Speaker 1: they should run him out of town. I'm not sure 97 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:58,000 Speaker 1: how many minds are gonna get changed, whether it's two days, 98 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:00,200 Speaker 1: three days, four days, a week a year at isn't 99 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:02,600 Speaker 1: much matter. The country seems very dug in on this topic, 100 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 1: with a very slight majority saying, you know, we should 101 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:09,480 Speaker 1: think about removing Trump from office, but certainly no, you know, 102 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:11,520 Speaker 1: no sort of human cry that that that's what's going 103 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:13,599 Speaker 1: to happen. And I think most of the public is 104 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:15,479 Speaker 1: sort of figured out. The joke there is that we 105 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 1: know the ending. We know there's no spoiler alert here. 106 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:20,360 Speaker 1: Donald Trump will get acquitted, he will he will walk, 107 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:22,400 Speaker 1: he will remain the president when this process is over. 108 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 1: So I think it's a little bit hard for even 109 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 1: the public to get excited about this. And just to clarify, 110 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:30,560 Speaker 1: you did say water and milk, right, that's an actual 111 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:33,440 Speaker 1: water and milk. They're allowed to have milk considering the 112 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:36,240 Speaker 1: average age of the United States center of milk warm, 113 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:41,719 Speaker 1: warm milk. Yes. Rick. What area where perhaps there would 114 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 1: be a little bit of drama is whether or not 115 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:46,720 Speaker 1: there will be witnesses called. Um, there's a new CNN 116 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 1: pole that's out that's that has six of the public 117 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:55,600 Speaker 1: saying the trial should include testimony from new witnesses. Um, 118 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 1: that's a pretty big number in these divided times. Is 119 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:00,920 Speaker 1: this an issue on which Democrats to have the upper hand. 120 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 1: You know, it's part of this negotiation of the process 121 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:06,799 Speaker 1: that Craig refers to um. One of the things that 122 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:09,920 Speaker 1: that caught I think McConnell a little bit by surprise. 123 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:12,320 Speaker 1: He he wanted to cloak himself into saying, hey, I'm 124 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 1: doing this exactly the same way we did it for Clinton, 125 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 1: and that was his safety valve. The problem is he 126 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 1: he forgot that that Clinton's allocation of days were twelve 127 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:26,279 Speaker 1: hours of debate, twenty four hours of debate free side, 128 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:28,559 Speaker 1: and he they did it over three years. So even 129 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 1: before the first session was ended today, he had already 130 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 1: camed on like, okay, forget I said two days, We're 131 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:35,920 Speaker 1: gonna make it three days, so that I really can 132 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 1: say that this is just like the Clinton trial. The 133 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:43,640 Speaker 1: Clinton trial allowed witnesses only after the cases had been 134 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 1: brought up. And so that will be an opportunity for 135 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 1: Republicans to split from leadership and say, you know what, 136 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:52,520 Speaker 1: we want to meet the demands of this. Almost seventy 137 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:54,719 Speaker 1: percent of the public that says we want to learn 138 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 1: more in the process of this, and and and there 139 00:06:57,360 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 1: I can see an amendment being a close vote on 140 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:02,560 Speaker 1: They're not you allowed new people, especially people like John 141 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:05,240 Speaker 1: Bolton who says I've got something to tell you, and 142 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 1: perhaps we could have a vote on whether or not 143 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 1: these are what we see from these these witnesses, right, 144 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 1: whether we get videotaped X excerpts, just transcripts that sort 145 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 1: of thing. Right, UM, I want to ask you both 146 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:17,640 Speaker 1: in a minute or so. You know, this is such 147 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:21,120 Speaker 1: a divided time, uh, and we're so used to these 148 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 1: partisan divides here and and this event, of course is 149 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 1: something that has only happened three times in the country's history, 150 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 1: and the impeachment of a president at a trial. Um, 151 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 1: does today feel any different to you? Or is it 152 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 1: just the continuation of what we've been experienced for the 153 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:40,240 Speaker 1: last three years? Greig, I have to say it is. 154 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 1: It's a very busy time right now. Obviously, we have 155 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 1: the Iowa caucus is less than a month away of 156 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 1: the Democratic presidential primary. You've got still some tension with 157 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 1: the RM lurking out there in North Korea rolled up 158 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 1: today and said they're they're gonna, you know, potentially start 159 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 1: firing off ballistic missiles. Oh and we're also impeaching the 160 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:59,120 Speaker 1: president of you know. In other news, Um, it has 161 00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 1: been sometimes a little hard to kind of recognize the 162 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 1: sort of the gravity of it. There is not there 163 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 1: are not thunderclaps and lightning bolts um surrounding these events. 164 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 1: Now Today's you know today was very procedural. There were 165 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:12,640 Speaker 1: these votes and you know, etcetera. But yeah, I have 166 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 1: to say, I think that's one of the democrats problems. 167 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 1: It's hard. It's hard for Peo to get excited. Because 168 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 1: I said earlier, we kind of know how the movie ends. 169 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 1: Can give me the ten second answer, Yeah, I mean 170 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 1: the first time we had an impeachment was right during 171 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 1: and after the Civil War. Talk about a time when 172 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 1: the country was split. Um, Bill Clinton, I think is 173 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 1: the asterisk this is this is next to the the 174 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 1: the war between the North and South, the worst time 175 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 1: we've seen in history. In a minute, we'll talk about 176 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:40,079 Speaker 1: how all this plays politically. I'm Greg's story. You're listening 177 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 1: to Bloomberg. You're listening to Bloomberg Sound on with Kevin 178 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:55,440 Speaker 1: Surreley on Bloomberg and one oh five point seven fmh 179 00:08:55,600 --> 00:09:00,199 Speaker 1: D two. I'm great story and for Kevin Cirelli still me. 180 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 1: Here is Rick Davis, Bloomberg contributor and former two time 181 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:08,360 Speaker 1: national campaign manager for John McCain and Craig Gordon, Bloomberg's 182 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:12,000 Speaker 1: Washington bureau chief. Even as his senator peachment trial is 183 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 1: set to get underway, President Donald Trump touts his economic 184 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:19,319 Speaker 1: success while at the World Economic Forum in Davos on Tuesday. 185 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 1: He said that the US has regained its edge against 186 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 1: other nations in areas like trade, job creation, and energy. 187 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 1: When I spoke at this forum two years ago, I 188 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:35,320 Speaker 1: told you that we had launched the great American comeback. Today, 189 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 1: I'm proud to claire that the United States is in 190 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:42,559 Speaker 1: the midst of an economic boom the likes of which 191 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 1: the world has never seen before. Rick Davis, we were 192 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:49,960 Speaker 1: talking earlier about all the other things going on in 193 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 1: addition to impeachment. Um. The broad expectation is that President 194 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:56,320 Speaker 1: Trump will not be convicted. He will stay in office 195 00:09:56,320 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 1: finish out his term. With all that being said, presidential 196 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:02,280 Speaker 1: election and coming up, what is the game here? What 197 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:06,839 Speaker 1: are Democrats to take it? From that perspective? Hoping trying 198 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 1: to accomplish here? Well, I do think there's an element 199 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 1: of trying to change the narrative. Trump has just had 200 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 1: a big success signing a trade deal with China that 201 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:17,280 Speaker 1: he said he was going to bring China to their knees, 202 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:21,080 Speaker 1: and arguably, um, he can. He can declare some success 203 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 1: and the ratification even in the midst of all this 204 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 1: impeachment of the U. S m c A, the trade 205 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:30,080 Speaker 1: deal between Canada and US is quite a feather in 206 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:32,480 Speaker 1: his cap. I mean, he's gonna have a signing ceremony 207 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:35,560 Speaker 1: while impeachment is going on, showing the American public that 208 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 1: he's out there doing the hard work of the presidency. 209 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 1: And you load on top of that, low unemployment, have 210 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:45,080 Speaker 1: the investment rates, great stock market records, and uh, and 211 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 1: he's got a story to tell that Um, that doesn't 212 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 1: include impeachment. So I think the fact that the Democrats 213 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:53,680 Speaker 1: have made a huge gambit on saying we want to 214 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:57,120 Speaker 1: start this year an election year talking about impeachment means 215 00:10:57,120 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 1: they have confidence that somehow this is going to nerd 216 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 1: their benefit. Um. Uh, sure, they're gonna tell you all, 217 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:05,720 Speaker 1: we're doing this because it's the right thing to do 218 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:08,199 Speaker 1: and the country needs to have. You know this, this 219 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:11,840 Speaker 1: this catharsis because otherwise, gosh, this guy will be uncontrolled 220 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 1: in the remainder of his presidency. But the reality is 221 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:17,679 Speaker 1: This is all about elections, and there is an election 222 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:21,920 Speaker 1: in ten months, and regardless of what happens with impeachment, Uh, 223 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:23,880 Speaker 1: there's gonna be an upper down vote on Donald Trump. 224 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 1: And Democrats I think believe that somehow this is going 225 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 1: to help them. I think the jury is out, just 226 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:31,679 Speaker 1: like it is on impeachment, Craig. When all this is 227 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 1: said and done in a few weeks, month or whatever 228 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:38,679 Speaker 1: it is, how would one define success for Democrats here? 229 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:42,200 Speaker 1: Is it winning over a few Republican votes? Is it 230 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 1: um getting John Bolton up there and and saying embarrassing 231 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:48,200 Speaker 1: things about the president? What? What? How would you define 232 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 1: success there? There? Democratic strategy involves trying to get no 233 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 1: Republican votes. The expectation is that if you vote over 234 00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:57,599 Speaker 1: Donald Trump with sixteen and you're still gonna vote for 235 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:01,480 Speaker 1: from you're dug in, You're dug in deep, and you're 236 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:03,360 Speaker 1: going You're either going up put the ship or down 237 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:05,920 Speaker 1: with the ship. This is all aimed at those moderates 238 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 1: in the middle. And again, as we talk about it 239 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:09,720 Speaker 1: every cycle, Rick can talk about it better than I 240 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:12,079 Speaker 1: can even but you know, there are those I think 241 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 1: it's people think there's maybe ten or fifteen percent people 242 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 1: kind of in the middle who were like, you know, 243 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:20,840 Speaker 1: I much care for Hillary Trump, kind of like to 244 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:23,160 Speaker 1: cut a Trump's jip. I love that guy from The Apprentice. 245 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 1: He seems like a real decisive guy. I'm going to 246 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 1: roll the dice and take my chances. You know, three 247 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 1: years in they're like, oh my gosh, what have I done? Um, 248 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:33,080 Speaker 1: they don't you talk to Democrats And when they do 249 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:35,760 Speaker 1: focus groups, people say they talk about the tweets, like 250 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:38,080 Speaker 1: I don't really like the tweets, which has become kind 251 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 1: of a substitute for like, I don't really like his style, 252 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:42,319 Speaker 1: Like he's kind of obnoxious and he's not very nice 253 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:45,680 Speaker 1: to people, and you know whatever. So I think, I mean, 254 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:48,040 Speaker 1: it's kind of I don't want to sound so cynical, 255 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:50,160 Speaker 1: but a lot of this impeachment is aimed at maybe 256 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:53,760 Speaker 1: that ten percent percent on the way outside that Democrats 257 00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 1: think are persuadable, you know, former Trump voters or people 258 00:12:56,760 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 1: who at least took it, took a walk on the 259 00:12:58,120 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 1: Trump side of the street and maybe could come over 260 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:02,480 Speaker 1: to the Democrats and really want to dirty up Trump 261 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 1: as best they can. Uh, you know, he was he 262 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:07,240 Speaker 1: was shady in the duay he dealt with the Ukrainians 263 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:10,240 Speaker 1: and etcetera. I think it's a huge gamble. I think, 264 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 1: you know, again, as we just talked about in the 265 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:15,120 Speaker 1: last segment, people are not exactly riveted by the impeachment yet, 266 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:17,559 Speaker 1: at least so far. And I think Democrats are putting 267 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 1: a lot of chips on this particular square. It may work, 268 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 1: it may not. But what they have, what Trump has 269 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:24,360 Speaker 1: is all the stuff Rick said, great economy, two or three, 270 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 1: good trade deals and uh and a real uh, you 271 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:29,760 Speaker 1: know tail in his back. Yeah. I would say, just 272 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 1: to add to that is that part of the play 273 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:35,440 Speaker 1: for the Democrats is defensive, right. I mean Nancy Pelosi, 274 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:38,040 Speaker 1: the Speaker of the House, did not want to do impeachment, 275 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 1: and it was the left wing of her party that 276 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:42,839 Speaker 1: forced her into it. I mean she resisted, resisted, and 277 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:45,440 Speaker 1: she finally caved in because the one thing they can't 278 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:49,840 Speaker 1: afford is a disenfranchised base. Right. I mean Hillary Clinton 279 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 1: lost in states like Wisconsin because she underperformed what Barack 280 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:56,959 Speaker 1: Obama got there by in this case, in two thousand 281 00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 1: and sixteen, she got two hundred fifty thousand fewer votes 282 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:04,079 Speaker 1: than Barack Obama did. Donald Trump got twenty thousand fewer 283 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:06,680 Speaker 1: votes than Mitt Romney did, but was able to beat 284 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:09,080 Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton in that state because she didn't turn out 285 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:11,480 Speaker 1: her base. So a lot of the Democratic strategy is 286 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:14,679 Speaker 1: fire up that base, make sure they're happy if they 287 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:18,440 Speaker 1: deliver at the scale that they did for Obama. It's 288 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:22,080 Speaker 1: very hard to see a scenario where Donald Trump wins. Craig. This, 289 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:24,560 Speaker 1: of course, is going along right as we're approaching the 290 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:29,240 Speaker 1: first presidential primary in Iowa. Uh, is there an easy 291 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 1: way to describe what impact it's gonna have on on 292 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 1: the primary, especially with some of the leading candidates, not 293 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 1: all of them, but some of them here in Washington 294 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:41,760 Speaker 1: sitting quietly in their seats drinking milk. Yeah, sort of 295 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:43,560 Speaker 1: at a tactical level, it's a great day if you're 296 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 1: Joe Biden or people to judge because you're not. Remember 297 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 1: the United States Senate and so you're freed has moved 298 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 1: to Iowa for the next two weeks and and set 299 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 1: up shop. Um for the senators running obviously Sanders and 300 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:56,800 Speaker 1: Warren clovichar app really, Michael Bennett is still running for president. 301 00:14:56,840 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 1: Someone told me today, So I guess there's four senators. Um, 302 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:01,480 Speaker 1: you know, it's it's obviously trickier. I do think on 303 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 1: the more on the strategic level, though, this is kind 304 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:06,400 Speaker 1: of baked into the cake. For Democratic primary voters in Iowa. 305 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:08,560 Speaker 1: You don't really hear the candidates talked that much about it. 306 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:11,400 Speaker 1: It's kind of understood if you're a Democratic primary voter. 307 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 1: It's like accepted that you don't much care for Donald Trump. 308 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 1: Whether it's being impeached or not impeached, or convicted or acquitted. 309 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 1: It it's all it's sort of like the backdrop against 310 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 1: which the whole campaign is being run. So the rallies 311 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 1: I attended when I was in Iowa, the people I've 312 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 1: talked to it does doesn't come up that much. But 313 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 1: I do think it's on the front of the mines 314 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:30,640 Speaker 1: of primary voters in one important way, which is we 315 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 1: need to find a candidate that can beat Donald Trump. 316 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 1: That's really good news with Joe Biden list, good news 317 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 1: for some of the others, but that is really the 318 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 1: sort of the driving force behind the caucuses and the 319 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:44,960 Speaker 1: primaries that are to come. Rick uh in about thirty 320 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:48,760 Speaker 1: seconds if you can um we get to November. Where 321 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:51,720 Speaker 1: does impeachment in Ukraine? Where do those rank on the 322 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 1: panoply of issues that voters are going to think about 323 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 1: when they impeachment. I mean, we blow through issues so 324 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 1: quickly nowadays because of the man media and how quickly 325 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:04,359 Speaker 1: we cycle through things, that I would be surprised impeachment 326 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:07,360 Speaker 1: actually carries much weight in November. I would say though, 327 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 1: that that that Ukraine scandal will continue on right even 328 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:13,680 Speaker 1: though impeachment will end in a couple of weeks. They'll 329 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 1: still be reporting about these crazy deals that we're trying 330 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:18,080 Speaker 1: to be struck in what was happening. So I wouldn't 331 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 1: be surprised if Ukraine has a doesn't have the reporting 332 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 1: on it doesn't have a bigger impact than the impeachment itself. Okay, 333 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 1: my thanks to Rick Davis, former John McCain national campaign 334 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 1: manager and Bloomberg contributor, and Craig Gordon, Bloomberg's Washington bureau chief. 335 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 1: Coming up, we'll talk about some of the legal issues 336 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 1: in the impeachment battle. Download the Bloomberg sound On podcast 337 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:41,840 Speaker 1: on iTunes, at Bloomberg dot com, or by downloading the 338 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Business app. I'm Greg Store. You're listening to Bloomberg. 339 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:53,080 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg's Sound On with Kevin Surreley on Bloomberg 340 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:56,560 Speaker 1: and one oh five point seven f M h D two. 341 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 1: I'm Greg's store in for Kevin Surrey. Like White House 342 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 1: lawyer Pat Sippoloni today told the Senate, the president does 343 00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 1: not deserve to be removed from office. We believe that 344 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:14,960 Speaker 1: once you hear those initial presentations, the only conclusion will 345 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 1: be that the president has done absolutely nothing wrong. Impeachment, 346 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:23,399 Speaker 1: of course, is a big political event, but it's also 347 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:25,720 Speaker 1: a legal event. And to talk through some of the 348 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:29,600 Speaker 1: biggest legal issues, we have two guests. Kent Greenfield is 349 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:32,919 Speaker 1: a professor of law at Boston College Law School, and 350 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:36,879 Speaker 1: Josh Blackman, professor of law at South Texas College of Law. 351 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:41,359 Speaker 1: Welcome to you both. Um, let's start with something big. 352 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:46,919 Speaker 1: Let's start with the Trump administration argument that says, even 353 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 1: if I did everything that I'm accused of doing, I 354 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:54,280 Speaker 1: can't be convicted because it's not a crime. He says, 355 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:58,880 Speaker 1: impeachment is only for things that are crimes. Kent Greenfield, 356 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:02,720 Speaker 1: do you agree with that argument? I don't. Uh. Let 357 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:05,720 Speaker 1: me start by saying hello to my friend Josh, um 358 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:09,000 Speaker 1: and uh. And also it's it's it's good to hear 359 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 1: Pat Speroni's voice, I haven't uh. He and I were 360 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:15,639 Speaker 1: at law school together, so I guess it's a small world. 361 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:19,879 Speaker 1: I don't agree with with Pat Speroni's arguments, and I 362 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:22,720 Speaker 1: take it to be Alan dershy Wish it's dersha Witz 363 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:26,040 Speaker 1: His argument as well that that in order to be impeachable, 364 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:29,400 Speaker 1: it has to be an underlying crime. And I think 365 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:33,200 Speaker 1: this is one of those situations where where the um 366 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 1: the text of the Constitution, where it's his high crimes 367 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:39,280 Speaker 1: and misdemeanors, you have to read it in the lighting 368 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:43,160 Speaker 1: of the of the of of this meaning at the time, 369 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:47,440 Speaker 1: which was with the high crimes and misdemeanors meant um 370 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:50,720 Speaker 1: abuse of the office of the of the high office. 371 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:55,360 Speaker 1: It did not mean it wasn't intended to be limited 372 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:58,720 Speaker 1: to the something that was criminal. And in fact, we've 373 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:02,760 Speaker 1: got a lot of precedents for that, like the the 374 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:07,040 Speaker 1: the two of the articles of impeachment against Nixon back 375 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:10,840 Speaker 1: in the day did not have an underlying criminal conduct. 376 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 1: Most of the articles of impeachment against Andrew Johnson back 377 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:17,800 Speaker 1: in the nineteenth century were did not have a criminal component, 378 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:20,720 Speaker 1: and in fact, a number of impeachment of judges most 379 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:24,480 Speaker 1: impeachments that have gone through the House and then um 380 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:27,680 Speaker 1: been tried by the Senate have enough judges, and a 381 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:31,880 Speaker 1: good number of them have have featured behavior like drunkenness 382 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:34,320 Speaker 1: that that are not criminal in and of himself. But 383 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:38,320 Speaker 1: but we're the basis for and uh an impeachment and 384 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 1: then removal from from office. Josh Blackman, do you agree 385 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:46,720 Speaker 1: with that? And Um? If you do, then what is 386 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:49,879 Speaker 1: the standard? How do we know when uh something the 387 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:54,320 Speaker 1: president does is enough to warrant being thrown out of office? Well? 388 00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:55,920 Speaker 1: Also the pleasure to be here with my good friend 389 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:59,720 Speaker 1: Kent Um, I think I largely agree with what he said. Um. 390 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:01,960 Speaker 1: At the time of the framing, when the Constitution was 391 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:05,640 Speaker 1: first ratified, they were virtually no federal crimes. We had 392 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 1: a blank statute book. I don't think it's reasonable to 393 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 1: assume that the only way to be impeached was if 394 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:15,760 Speaker 1: Congress had started to create new criminal statutes. I think 395 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:19,359 Speaker 1: that the frames understood that there there are certain offenses 396 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 1: that could rise to the level of high crimes and 397 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:25,520 Speaker 1: misdemeanors UM that are not uh, that they are not 398 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:28,200 Speaker 1: themselves violation of the law. UM. I think I'll part 399 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 1: company ever so slightly in where I draw that line. Um. 400 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 1: The House Democrats have asserted that President Trump has violated 401 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:40,040 Speaker 1: the Constitution because he took this action and made the 402 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:43,680 Speaker 1: request of the Ukrainian president. UM, and he did so 403 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 1: for his personal political benefit. UM. I take the position, 404 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:52,160 Speaker 1: which is perhaps not very popular nowadays, that politicians routinely 405 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 1: do things for the play called benefit, and they look 406 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:56,240 Speaker 1: at the ballot box when they act, and they look 407 00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 1: at the polls when they act. And I think it's 408 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:04,879 Speaker 1: um permissible but perhaps problematic to define impeachable abuse of 409 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:07,439 Speaker 1: power at this level. I think there are lots of 410 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:11,160 Speaker 1: actions President's sake that are perhaps foolish and perhaps things 411 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:15,920 Speaker 1: I disagree with, but within the bounds of of politics, 412 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:19,359 Speaker 1: and should be punished politically at the ballot box. Can't. Can't. 413 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 1: Is there a way to distinguish what Donald Trump is 414 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:25,399 Speaker 1: accused of doing here from those other foolish things that 415 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 1: Josh is talking about? Yeah? I do, And I think 416 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:33,600 Speaker 1: that I wish that that the President's defenders in the 417 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:36,719 Speaker 1: center where as honest as Josh about what their argument 418 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:41,639 Speaker 1: really is. But they're not. But I think the in 419 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:45,879 Speaker 1: my view, Trump's behavior in this situation is at the 420 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 1: core of what impeachment was intended to remedy. It's the 421 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:55,440 Speaker 1: the faithlessness of a president to to pervert our own, 422 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 1: uh national interest in order to further his own, uh selfish, 423 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:03,239 Speaker 1: plitical or financial interests. Which is that which is I 424 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:06,960 Speaker 1: think the core of the kinds of abuses of power 425 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:10,840 Speaker 1: that ought to be the basis for impeachment and removal. 426 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 1: That the words faithful or a derivation of the of 427 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:18,639 Speaker 1: the word faithful, appears twice in in the Constitution once 428 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:22,360 Speaker 1: and the oath of the of the Office of the Presidency. 429 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:26,400 Speaker 1: I will um I do somethn swear to faithfully execute 430 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 1: the office of the Presidency of the United States. And 431 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:31,879 Speaker 1: also in the take care clause, the president has the 432 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:35,040 Speaker 1: obligation to take care that the laws are faithfully executed. 433 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 1: So my view, I've been become convinced that that faithfulness 434 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 1: is at the core of presidential obligation, and that um 435 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:47,440 Speaker 1: that which means that the president should act as if 436 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:50,640 Speaker 1: he has a fiduciary duty to the country. And what 437 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 1: that means is that he has to act um in 438 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:56,680 Speaker 1: the interests of the company in the country. Not I 439 00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:59,200 Speaker 1: say company, because it's sort of like the fiduciary duty 440 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 1: that the corporate Exact could have adds to a company. UM. 441 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:05,760 Speaker 1: But that and that and that faith faith lessness is 442 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:09,720 Speaker 1: the kind of abusive power as we've seen in this 443 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:13,960 Speaker 1: case that that merit's impeachment and removal. Josh, I want 444 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 1: to jump to the subject of witnesses since that seems 445 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:19,159 Speaker 1: to be uh something that could be a source of 446 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 1: at least some drama in the trial. UM. The President 447 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:27,440 Speaker 1: has made the case that are UM and Senate Republicans 448 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:31,880 Speaker 1: McConnell making the case that we don't really need witnesses here. UM. 449 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:35,120 Speaker 1: A lot of the people were talking about, like John Bolton, mcmilvaaney, 450 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:38,960 Speaker 1: or people whom the President blocked from testifying before the 451 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:43,080 Speaker 1: House when it was considering the articles of impeachment. Over 452 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 1: there is there a good argument that the that the 453 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:49,640 Speaker 1: Republicans and the President can make for why we don't 454 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 1: need any witnesses in this trial. UM. I think the 455 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:57,920 Speaker 1: president's lawyers make a few different arguments. UM. They first 456 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 1: argued that the entire impeachient eatings legitimate from the outset, 457 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:04,720 Speaker 1: that is, the subpoenas were issued before the full House 458 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 1: had taken a vote, and therefore the President no obligation 459 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:10,840 Speaker 1: to respond to impeachment subpoenas when the House hadn't approved 460 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:15,480 Speaker 1: the subpoena. So therefore they argue that the entire um uh, 461 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:18,960 Speaker 1: the entire processes sort of rotten to the core. But 462 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:22,359 Speaker 1: let's put that argument aside for a moment. Um. I 463 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 1: think the argument that no witnesses are are missible is 464 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 1: a common argument a defense attorney would make witnesses quit 465 00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:30,760 Speaker 1: forward evidence is damaging to our client, and they're going 466 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:33,400 Speaker 1: to fight the available of those witnesses. I mean, that's 467 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 1: that's the reason why they don't want witnesses. Any additional 468 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:38,720 Speaker 1: things that are said um could only inert to the 469 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:41,480 Speaker 1: detriment of Trump and not to the benefit UM. So 470 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:44,200 Speaker 1: I think defense lawyers are going to make that position. 471 00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:48,960 Speaker 1: I think the more important question is would senators oppose 472 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 1: um uh the introduction witnesses. And there's questions of whether 473 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:55,520 Speaker 1: they do it now or they do it later. And 474 00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:58,240 Speaker 1: I think some senators have more or less decided that 475 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:01,240 Speaker 1: the fact finding role was a role for the House, 476 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 1: not for the Senate, and if the if the House 477 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:05,760 Speaker 1: failed to call witnesses, it should be the sense job 478 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:08,440 Speaker 1: to clean up. I think it's a non trivial argument 479 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:10,840 Speaker 1: that you should be limited to the record. But in 480 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:15,439 Speaker 1: the past we've had impeachments for the Senate has called witnesses. UM. 481 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:18,760 Speaker 1: I think ultimately probably will get some witnesses, and maybe 482 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:21,920 Speaker 1: John Bolton's wanted them, and maybe a good old hunter 483 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:24,520 Speaker 1: might get dragged in as well. UM. I don't think 484 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 1: we'll learn very much. I think will be extremely unsatisfying 485 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:30,120 Speaker 1: once witnesses testify. I think these these are exchanges will 486 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 1: be prescripted. Both witnesses can be coached in effective manners, 487 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:36,720 Speaker 1: and I'm not expecting anything that will change the dynamics 488 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:39,639 Speaker 1: in anyway. Can what's your take on that is it 489 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:43,639 Speaker 1: is it important that we hear from witnesses. I do 490 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:46,360 Speaker 1: think so, because I think there's been some been some 491 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:49,440 Speaker 1: expansion and what we what we know and what we 492 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:54,400 Speaker 1: respect occurred uh since since the House wrapped up their inquiry, 493 00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:55,959 Speaker 1: you know. And I think one of the things that 494 00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:59,199 Speaker 1: we might see going forward is I think probably UM 495 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,640 Speaker 1: UM Lucie, Speaker Pelosi and the Democrats on the House 496 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 1: side might keep this inquiry open and either UM UH 497 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:13,720 Speaker 1: in effect or or UM in fact over the next 498 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:18,520 Speaker 1: UM a few few months if more, UM knowledge comes out, 499 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:21,200 Speaker 1: you know now that now we know that there's UM, 500 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 1: there's many more documents out there, many more UM pieces 501 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:29,159 Speaker 1: of information that we can gather. And I agree with 502 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:33,720 Speaker 1: Josh that I don't anticipate you know, UM, you know, 503 00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:37,600 Speaker 1: John Bolton coming uh and dropping a bombshell that would 504 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:41,359 Speaker 1: that would force twenty Republican senators to vote to remove 505 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:43,720 Speaker 1: the president. But I do think can't. We're gonna afraid, 506 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:44,960 Speaker 1: we're gonna have to leave it there. I want to 507 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:49,480 Speaker 1: thank you for joining us here on Bloomberg Radio. Josh, 508 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:51,720 Speaker 1: you're gonna stick around. Coming up, we're gonna talk about 509 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:55,440 Speaker 1: Chief Justice John Roberts, who's presiding over this trial, and 510 00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 1: talk about how it might affect the Supreme Court's working 511 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:03,800 Speaker 1: as while he's residing over the trial. I'm Greg's store. 512 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:14,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to Bloomberg. This is Bloomberg's Sound on with 513 00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:18,320 Speaker 1: Kevin Surreley on Bloomberg one and one oh five point 514 00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:22,600 Speaker 1: seven of m h D two, Baltimore. I'm Greg's store 515 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:26,120 Speaker 1: in for Kevin Cirelli. We're talking impeachment with Josh Blackman, 516 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:29,720 Speaker 1: law professor at South Texas College of Law, and now 517 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:34,040 Speaker 1: Jonathan Adler, Law professor at Case Western Reserve Law School. 518 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:38,119 Speaker 1: The public hasn't seen much of John Roberts since he 519 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:41,240 Speaker 1: testified at his Senate confirmation hearing in two thousand five. 520 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:45,159 Speaker 1: As Chief Justice, he has made relatively few public appearances, 521 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:48,159 Speaker 1: including the three times he administered the oath of office 522 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:54,359 Speaker 1: at a presidential inauguration. Jonathan Adler, welcome to sound on. UH. 523 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:59,280 Speaker 1: You and Josh both follow the Supreme Court very closely. Um, 524 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:02,439 Speaker 1: today I was watching the proceedings on TV, and you 525 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:05,600 Speaker 1: saw the person down there at the at the lectorn, 526 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:09,040 Speaker 1: and you never saw John Roberts up above. What do 527 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:11,479 Speaker 1: you think he's thinking during all this? What do you 528 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:17,200 Speaker 1: think his attitude about this entire impeachment proceeding is? Well, 529 00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:19,600 Speaker 1: I can imagine that there are plenty of other places 530 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:22,119 Speaker 1: he would rather be I think, you know, he is 531 00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:25,159 Speaker 1: generally very focused on the work of the Court and 532 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:28,960 Speaker 1: trying to uh take actions that he believes helped maintain 533 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:32,959 Speaker 1: the Court's legitimacy. And being thrust into the middle of 534 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:36,359 Speaker 1: a very tribal and very partisan conflict like impeachment is 535 00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:39,760 Speaker 1: certainly not not something that that I think he would 536 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:45,280 Speaker 1: prefer to be doing. Josh, how much of a presence. 537 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:50,080 Speaker 1: Do you think John Roberts will be during this this trial. Uh? 538 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:53,520 Speaker 1: Is he more likely to kind of lie low and 539 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:57,960 Speaker 1: let the members of Congress and the administration lawyers run 540 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:00,240 Speaker 1: the show, or or do you see him likely to 541 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:03,479 Speaker 1: make some significant decisions up there um In the past, 542 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:06,080 Speaker 1: she just as Roberts has commented on the state of 543 00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:09,320 Speaker 1: the Union process, where the justices go to Congress and 544 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 1: sit there like potted plants. I think his role will 545 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,400 Speaker 1: be greater than a potted plant, but not by much. UM. 546 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:19,600 Speaker 1: So far, all Roberts has done to administer oaths and 547 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:26,360 Speaker 1: allow the other parties to make arguments and allowed some 548 00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:30,640 Speaker 1: votes to be held. I can't imagine Chief Justice Roberts 549 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:34,800 Speaker 1: will actually make any substantive or significant rulings UM in 550 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:38,200 Speaker 1: the unlikely event that the vote ties as fifty fifty. 551 00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:40,920 Speaker 1: I think there's an argument that Roberts may actually have 552 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:42,560 Speaker 1: to split the tie. I don't know that it will 553 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:44,280 Speaker 1: come to that. I don't think McConnell would let it 554 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:47,000 Speaker 1: come to that, But I think it's unlikely that Roberts 555 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:49,680 Speaker 1: is anything of substance. He will sit there, smile, and 556 00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:52,480 Speaker 1: let everyone else run the show around him. Chief Justice 557 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:55,280 Speaker 1: rank with said about his impeachment duties, I did nothing 558 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:57,120 Speaker 1: at all, and he did it very well. I think 559 00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:00,760 Speaker 1: Roberts will do much the same. Chief Justice Verts, of course, 560 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:04,200 Speaker 1: was a law clerk to to Chief Justice Renquist, not 561 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:07,680 Speaker 1: during the impeachment, but in some ways has has used 562 00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:11,760 Speaker 1: the late Chief Justice as his model. Um. Jonathan. On 563 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:15,400 Speaker 1: that issue of breaking a tie, Um, there is some 564 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,840 Speaker 1: debate as to whether if the senators but fifty fifty, 565 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:23,480 Speaker 1: John Roberts could cast the deciding vote. Do you think 566 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:25,520 Speaker 1: he'd want to cast the deciding vote even if even 567 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:27,320 Speaker 1: if he thinks he has the authority to do that, 568 00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:31,880 Speaker 1: I don't And Uh, my guess is that the way 569 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:35,080 Speaker 1: he will handle anything like that is if there is 570 00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:38,560 Speaker 1: a motion, uh that is that is before the body. 571 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:42,400 Speaker 1: My suspicion is is that his view will be is 572 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:46,160 Speaker 1: that for emotion to carry, it requires a majority of 573 00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:48,600 Speaker 1: the body, and that means if there are not fifty 574 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:51,520 Speaker 1: one votes, then the motion fails and he does not 575 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:55,400 Speaker 1: need to cast a vote at one way or the other. Um. Certainly, 576 00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:58,840 Speaker 1: if I was advising him, uh, unless the parliamentary and 577 00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:01,840 Speaker 1: told me otherwise, That's what I would advise him to do. 578 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:05,520 Speaker 1: And I think taking that sort of approach would enable 579 00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:09,920 Speaker 1: him to not have to cast any any sort of vote, uh, 580 00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:14,080 Speaker 1: and instead leave control of the proceedings and even the 581 00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:20,040 Speaker 1: procedural questions to the Senate itself. Josh, the relationship between 582 00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:24,400 Speaker 1: John Roberts and Donald Trump has been um, perhaps we 583 00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:28,040 Speaker 1: could say frauds. Certainly it's been interesting. Uh. Donald Trump 584 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:31,240 Speaker 1: has been been critical of of robertson for a number 585 00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:35,640 Speaker 1: of things. And Uh, there was a moment a while 586 00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:38,840 Speaker 1: back when Trump criticized the district judge who had ruled 587 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 1: against him in a case and called him an Obama judge, 588 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:45,360 Speaker 1: and John Roberts put out a rather extraordinary statement saying, 589 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 1: we're not Obama judges or Trump judges, were all just 590 00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:49,920 Speaker 1: men and women trying to do our best to apply 591 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:54,360 Speaker 1: the law. How, if it all, does that relationship with 592 00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:59,240 Speaker 1: with Donald Trump effect how John Roberts might handle this 593 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:03,120 Speaker 1: proceeding to Does it make him, um, you know, you know, 594 00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:06,320 Speaker 1: suspect in the eyes of some people up there. Well, 595 00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:08,360 Speaker 1: you know, I'm not a John Roberts fan, and I 596 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 1: think my colleague John Adler made gruthin at least some 597 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:13,480 Speaker 1: of the time. But I think Roberts is a fair judge. 598 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:15,400 Speaker 1: I think he honestly believes he's doing the right thing 599 00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:18,600 Speaker 1: at all times, and he approaches this with the solemnity 600 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:22,840 Speaker 1: and uh dignity that the moment requires. I have no 601 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:26,200 Speaker 1: doubt he thinks low of President Trump and a lot 602 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,480 Speaker 1: of regards and criticize the statements publicly. None of that 603 00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:31,920 Speaker 1: will matter. I think Roberts will handle this, this this 604 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:34,800 Speaker 1: proceeding as fairly as possible. And I think I think 605 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:38,320 Speaker 1: John said it right. There's there's It's unlikely Roberts will 606 00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:40,560 Speaker 1: have to make a substance of ruling unless there's a 607 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:43,120 Speaker 1: bizarre fifty fifty tie in which he needs to cast 608 00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:46,640 Speaker 1: in deciding vote. Roberts will basically just sit there and smile. 609 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:49,840 Speaker 1: I think that's about where he wants to be. Johnathan, 610 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:52,880 Speaker 1: let me let me return to the issue of whether 611 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:55,160 Speaker 1: he's a potted plant. Is there a way I mean? 612 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:58,960 Speaker 1: John Roberts is uh, I would say, a unique figure 613 00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:01,800 Speaker 1: in the country right now where um, although a lot 614 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 1: of people are critical of him, uh, he at least 615 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:07,520 Speaker 1: holds himself out as a nonpartisan act or somebody who's 616 00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:11,760 Speaker 1: trying to be fair and, as he likes to put it, 617 00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:14,920 Speaker 1: be an umpire Um, is there a way that you 618 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:17,760 Speaker 1: can imagine where he might make some decisions up there 619 00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:21,560 Speaker 1: where he can you know, lend an aura of fairness 620 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:25,640 Speaker 1: or at least order to this proceeding and and sort of, uh, 621 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:28,960 Speaker 1: you know, improve the public perception of what's going on. Well, 622 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:31,360 Speaker 1: I mean, I think really the best way that he 623 00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:35,720 Speaker 1: does that is to involve himself as little as possible. 624 00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:41,240 Speaker 1: I mean, this process, as as contemplated in the Constitution, 625 00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:46,440 Speaker 1: is understood to be a political process. Um. That's why 626 00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:50,280 Speaker 1: the Constitution provides that a trial for impeachment occurs in 627 00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:53,280 Speaker 1: the Senate and not in a court. And I think 628 00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:57,040 Speaker 1: John Roberts has always been very conscious, at least tried 629 00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 1: to be conscious of a distinguished between those matters that 630 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:04,640 Speaker 1: are properly legal matters about which a court can make 631 00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:09,000 Speaker 1: a earlyis try to make a dispassionate legal judgment, and 632 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:12,680 Speaker 1: those matters that are properly political. And this really is 633 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:16,160 Speaker 1: the latter, It was designed to be the latter, and 634 00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:19,680 Speaker 1: as we we observe her, um, it is it is 635 00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:23,520 Speaker 1: a very political and politicized process. And so I don't 636 00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:26,440 Speaker 1: think he safeguards his own reputation or the reputation of 637 00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:29,840 Speaker 1: the Court, if he tries to inject himself in a 638 00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:33,440 Speaker 1: way that that affects the proceedings as opposed to simply 639 00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:37,960 Speaker 1: presiding and and and helping the Senate reach the conclusions 640 00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:41,160 Speaker 1: at the Senate as a collective body decides to reach 641 00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:44,000 Speaker 1: Josh in the last minute or so that we have. 642 00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:46,319 Speaker 1: I want to jump to the potential impact on the 643 00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:49,640 Speaker 1: Supreme Court. John Roberts heard arguments in two cases this 644 00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:53,200 Speaker 1: morning and then across the street to go to the Senate. UH, 645 00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:57,879 Speaker 1: here's arguments in another case tomorrow. How if it all, 646 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:02,120 Speaker 1: will his the double duty that he's performing right now 647 00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:05,480 Speaker 1: do you think affect the Supreme Court this term. I 648 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:08,520 Speaker 1: don't think it will affect it at all directly, UM. Indirectly, 649 00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:10,839 Speaker 1: there may be some linkage. We have cases is going 650 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:14,120 Speaker 1: to be argued in March. Considering subpoenas that were issued. Now, 651 00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:17,560 Speaker 1: these were not impeachment related subpoenas. They were impeachments UH 652 00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:21,200 Speaker 1: in the oversight legislative context. But depending on the court 653 00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:25,160 Speaker 1: resolved of subpoenas, it may either support or we can 654 00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:28,120 Speaker 1: claim to obstruction of Congress. But we will get an 655 00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:33,160 Speaker 1: impeachment ruling far before we get the end of the term. Jonathan, 656 00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:35,560 Speaker 1: do you have that same take. Do you think there's 657 00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:38,160 Speaker 1: any impact on the court one way or the other 658 00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:41,400 Speaker 1: from from impeachment. I don't think. I don't think the 659 00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:44,440 Speaker 1: procedues over the next couple of weeks necessarily have that impact. 660 00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:47,040 Speaker 1: I certainly do think that that people are you watching 661 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:49,520 Speaker 1: the cases of the court has taken for later this 662 00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:53,640 Speaker 1: term very closely. Uh, and there is a potential for 663 00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:58,719 Speaker 1: the Court's reputation to be affected, particularly if those decisions 664 00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:03,040 Speaker 1: are divid I did and particularly contentious. John Roberts, of course, 665 00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:06,000 Speaker 1: has tried to make himself the steward of the judiciaries 666 00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:10,600 Speaker 1: institutional reputation. UM. I want to thank both our guests, 667 00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:15,160 Speaker 1: Jonathan Adler of Case Western Reserve Law School in Cleveland 668 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:19,920 Speaker 1: and Josh Blackman of South Texas College of Law. We 669 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:23,440 Speaker 1: thanks very much for joining us on Sound on Downlaw. 670 00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:27,520 Speaker 1: Download the Bloomberg Sound On podcast on iTunes, at Bloomberg 671 00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:30,960 Speaker 1: dot com, or by downloading the Bloomberg Business app. You 672 00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:34,160 Speaker 1: can also find us on Radio dot com, I Heart Radio, 673 00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:38,000 Speaker 1: and Spotify. I'm Greg Store. You're listening to Bloomberg