WEBVTT - Fab 5 Freddy Part 1 0:00:00.360 --> 0:00:22.320 Quest Loft Show is a production of iHeartRadio. All right, 0:00:22.360 --> 0:00:26.079 good people, this is the Quest Love Show, reminding you 0:00:26.200 --> 0:00:30.319 folks that we are also a visual experience. Like a 0:00:30.320 --> 0:00:32.440 lot of you are just taking this in as a podcast, 0:00:32.479 --> 0:00:37.760 but we are on YouTube and we are gladly accepting subscriptions, 0:00:38.240 --> 0:00:41.360 likes and follows. All right, that's very important if you 0:00:41.520 --> 0:00:44.120 like what we're putting down on the show. What can 0:00:44.159 --> 0:00:48.760 I say? Our guest today is a personal personal hero 0:00:49.080 --> 0:00:56.280 of mine. He taught me the power of creative aisle crossing. 0:00:56.840 --> 0:00:59.840 I learned never to burn a bridge because you never 0:00:59.880 --> 0:01:02.640 know who you're gonna need in your journey in life. 0:01:03.600 --> 0:01:09.560 He taught me the power of being a renaissance person. 0:01:09.640 --> 0:01:13.520 He taught me the power of speaking of bridges, being 0:01:13.560 --> 0:01:17.000 a bridge like connecting people from all walks of life. 0:01:17.440 --> 0:01:20.640 And I guess through him, I learned that hip hop 0:01:20.800 --> 0:01:24.640 is really it's an art form and we need to 0:01:24.800 --> 0:01:28.399 hold it up as such. Of course, he's ubiquitous. You 0:01:28.440 --> 0:01:31.280 may know him too if you're a New York resident 0:01:31.360 --> 0:01:34.800 of a certain era. Of course you might have seen 0:01:34.800 --> 0:01:38.080 his legendary tags or his pieces on trains if you 0:01:38.120 --> 0:01:41.320 were lucky enough. He was the first person to get 0:01:41.360 --> 0:01:45.959 a shot out on hip hop's first number one rap single, 0:01:46.400 --> 0:01:50.800 not to mention he was instrumental and really bringing hip 0:01:50.840 --> 0:01:53.800 hop to the world. Be it first time that I 0:01:53.920 --> 0:01:57.640 got to see an actual, authentic representation of it if 0:01:57.680 --> 0:02:02.160 you saw Charlie Adhearn's Wild Style movie. Not to mention 0:02:03.120 --> 0:02:09.119 the platinum plus flooding of a lot of our classic 0:02:09.160 --> 0:02:12.840 era hip hop artists through a vehicle called YEO and 0:02:12.919 --> 0:02:17.079 TV raps, we would have never have heard of Jazzy 0:02:17.120 --> 0:02:20.360 Jeff for the Fresh Prince or NWA or Public Enemy 0:02:20.440 --> 0:02:23.240 or Queen Latifa or a Tribe or any of those 0:02:23.600 --> 0:02:26.800 pioneering groups that inspired us to go on. And he 0:02:26.880 --> 0:02:30.520 has a new book called Everybody's Fly and it gives 0:02:30.639 --> 0:02:35.720 astonishing detail about his life on Hancock Street in Brooklyn. 0:02:36.040 --> 0:02:39.200 What can I say? The flies of them all fab 0:02:39.280 --> 0:02:43.040 hire Freddy Dude, the way so much, the way that 0:02:43.080 --> 0:02:46.360 Tarik and I would dream like all right, so you 0:02:46.400 --> 0:02:50.560 know I'm big on like manifesting and all that manifesting thing. Yeah, 0:02:50.560 --> 0:02:55.480 And I would say that there's always two scenarios that 0:02:55.600 --> 0:02:58.600 Tarik and I and our journey, you know, it was 0:02:58.639 --> 0:03:00.920 like a seven year journey from high school to like 0:03:01.040 --> 0:03:03.400 when we first started busking on the street corners, right, 0:03:03.960 --> 0:03:07.560 And the first one is always what I call well Treek, 0:03:07.919 --> 0:03:10.120 and I'll always be something like, well trek Man. We 0:03:10.280 --> 0:03:14.760 just finished a four month run of like Indian Africa 0:03:14.840 --> 0:03:17.000 going on. We laugh, like wed be on the bus 0:03:17.040 --> 0:03:19.679 coming home from our insurance jobs. But like it was 0:03:19.680 --> 0:03:22.240 always a well Tarik moment. And the other one, Tarik's 0:03:22.320 --> 0:03:25.359 version was always ah, yeah, we live here on the 0:03:25.400 --> 0:03:28.240 fifty two bus at fifty second and Spruce Street with 0:03:28.320 --> 0:03:31.040 the one and only Questlove and like he would pretend 0:03:31.080 --> 0:03:33.960 he was you, and like, I guess the whole thing 0:03:34.080 --> 0:03:36.840 was like, you know, maybe one day we could be 0:03:36.880 --> 0:03:40.000 on your MTV reps and Wow, to talk to you 0:03:40.160 --> 0:03:44.240 now in this setting, one is ironic that I'm interviewing you. 0:03:44.320 --> 0:03:47.400 So it's perfect amazing. Yeah, that's so true. 0:03:47.560 --> 0:03:49.160 I feel like this is gonna be a very this 0:03:49.200 --> 0:03:50.680 will be a terry gross question. 0:03:50.840 --> 0:03:51.400 Haha. 0:03:51.680 --> 0:03:55.680 Okay, what is fly and who came up. 0:03:55.600 --> 0:04:00.280 With that term? Wow? Well, you know before it was 0:04:00.360 --> 0:04:03.880 I think you could probably safely say popularized in the 0:04:04.000 --> 0:04:07.960 hip hop space, very early hip hop space. In the 0:04:07.960 --> 0:04:12.400 Boogie Down Bronx, there was a great movie blaxploitation, although 0:04:12.440 --> 0:04:16.960 I'm not always crazy about that term, but super fly fly, 0:04:17.279 --> 0:04:20.240 so fly was just a term that meant, you know, 0:04:20.360 --> 0:04:24.040 you was cool, you had your gear right, you look right, 0:04:24.120 --> 0:04:29.599 you stepped right. And so in early hip hop, fly 0:04:29.800 --> 0:04:34.400 guys and fly girls was the way the participants were referenced, 0:04:34.920 --> 0:04:38.560 and so it kind of was sort of amplified in 0:04:38.680 --> 0:04:43.400 that space. And then in explaining to Chris Stine and 0:04:43.440 --> 0:04:47.080 Debbie Harriet and Nucleus of Blondie what was going on, 0:04:47.240 --> 0:04:50.000 what this scene was about, how it had its own 0:04:50.800 --> 0:04:54.200 slang and its own look and its own feel and sound, 0:04:55.760 --> 0:04:58.279 they kind of took it from me, put it on 0:04:58.360 --> 0:05:01.159 their record, and now I uh put it on the 0:05:01.200 --> 0:05:03.640 cover of my book as a title as you should, 0:05:03.720 --> 0:05:04.880 yeah should? Yeah. 0:05:05.000 --> 0:05:09.400 You have one of the more colorful alliteration names, fab 0:05:09.440 --> 0:05:12.240 five Freddy Yeah. Can you give me the history of 0:05:12.320 --> 0:05:14.359 how that moniker landed with you? 0:05:14.480 --> 0:05:16.600 Yes, sir, Well, you know, when I became a part 0:05:16.680 --> 0:05:20.040 of a group of graffiti writers that were legendary call 0:05:20.120 --> 0:05:23.919 the Fabulous Five short the Fab five, I became like, 0:05:25.040 --> 0:05:27.720 let's say, the final member to join, if you will. 0:05:27.760 --> 0:05:31.240 But my mission when I connected with Lee kenyonis who 0:05:31.320 --> 0:05:34.440 was the premium member of that group as a just 0:05:34.640 --> 0:05:39.800 outstanding painter muralists, if you will. When I became a 0:05:39.800 --> 0:05:42.839 part of that, I would tag up you know, fred 0:05:42.880 --> 0:05:45.479 and then Fab five, Fabulous five probably you know, just 0:05:45.520 --> 0:05:48.880 to tag Fab five and that became has just morphed 0:05:48.920 --> 0:05:50.320 itself into Fab five Freddy. 0:05:50.600 --> 0:05:52.680 So before you came, were they the Fabulous four? 0:05:53.200 --> 0:05:55.760 No, they were the Fab five. They were I guess 0:05:55.800 --> 0:05:57.719 at different times, probably more than five. 0:05:57.920 --> 0:05:58.240 Okay. 0:05:58.320 --> 0:06:01.919 It was just a cool thing, probably inspired by the 0:06:03.240 --> 0:06:05.360 by the Beatles to a certain extent, but probably even 0:06:05.440 --> 0:06:09.479 more so the kind of influence of comics, and you 0:06:09.560 --> 0:06:12.800 had the Fantastic Four, and so there was like that 0:06:13.320 --> 0:06:16.880 superhero influence which I guess influenced a lot of graffiti 0:06:16.920 --> 0:06:20.120 people as well as hip hop people. So it kind 0:06:20.160 --> 0:06:23.880 of was a popular thing, you know, the Treacherous Three, 0:06:24.200 --> 0:06:27.760 Fantastic Four, this, the four, the three to two. 0:06:28.920 --> 0:06:31.600 What year is this when the Fabulous well, the Fabulous 0:06:31.600 --> 0:06:34.120 five as a graffiti crew, they were strong through the 0:06:34.160 --> 0:06:38.599 seventies and they became known for painting whole car murals 0:06:39.480 --> 0:06:40.680 and they were just outstanding. 0:06:40.720 --> 0:06:43.080 And Lee, like I said, Lee keg Jonis was the 0:06:43.120 --> 0:06:45.960 premium member so they were renowned for that. But it 0:06:46.040 --> 0:06:49.039 was seeing Lee's work, particularly a mural he had did 0:06:49.440 --> 0:06:52.920 in the Lower east Side at fifty six Park on 0:06:53.000 --> 0:06:55.599 Madison Street. He was the first guy to paint like 0:06:55.680 --> 0:07:00.240 an entire handball court, as opposed to the like, you know, 0:07:00.600 --> 0:07:04.480 to the format of painting a train, which was a 0:07:04.800 --> 0:07:09.200 kind of a long horizontal. He painted this huge, kind 0:07:09.240 --> 0:07:13.360 of not a square but thing, which was outstanding. And 0:07:13.400 --> 0:07:16.520 when I saw that work, and he had written up 0:07:16.520 --> 0:07:19.600 in the upper corner, graffiti is an art, and if 0:07:19.720 --> 0:07:22.320 art is a crime, that God forgive all the fact 0:07:22.360 --> 0:07:25.520 that he was aware this was an art, and it 0:07:25.880 --> 0:07:29.440 clicked with ideas I had that pop artists had been 0:07:29.480 --> 0:07:32.680 inspired by similar things that had inspired graffiti, as it 0:07:32.720 --> 0:07:36.080 really developed into a way to make pictures and really 0:07:36.120 --> 0:07:38.920 tell stories with the imagery, and I had a feeling 0:07:39.000 --> 0:07:42.400 like we could move from the subway street space into 0:07:42.400 --> 0:07:45.560 an art space. I shared these ideas with Lee and 0:07:46.160 --> 0:07:48.800 we became a team, and hence I became a part 0:07:48.840 --> 0:07:51.559 of the group. I got with the original members, broke 0:07:51.600 --> 0:07:54.080 down what my plans were. They was like, go with it, baby, 0:07:54.120 --> 0:07:56.360 and I went with it all right. 0:07:56.400 --> 0:07:59.960 So you lived in New York city at various transit. 0:08:01.040 --> 0:08:04.240 I want to ask you about each period. So the 0:08:04.280 --> 0:08:06.680 first ten years of your life, which I can say 0:08:06.760 --> 0:08:07.480 is the sixties. 0:08:08.000 --> 0:08:08.880 Yeah, what is. 0:08:08.840 --> 0:08:13.960 Your happiest memory of nineteen sixties New York? 0:08:14.520 --> 0:08:15.960 Like, what is a great day? 0:08:16.520 --> 0:08:17.160 What's happening? 0:08:17.400 --> 0:08:20.080 A great day? Was, you know, playing in the street? 0:08:20.360 --> 0:08:23.920 I did all that classic New York street stuff. We 0:08:24.040 --> 0:08:27.200 played all kinds of games. On the side was what 0:08:27.280 --> 0:08:30.960 was your main game? Some games were somewhat seasonal because 0:08:30.960 --> 0:08:33.600 when it warmed up you could play it was a 0:08:33.640 --> 0:08:34.760 game called skelly. 0:08:35.120 --> 0:08:36.719 Is that a street pool where you take a. 0:08:36.720 --> 0:08:39.480 Time of similar to street pool if you will. You 0:08:39.520 --> 0:08:42.840 had a kind of a diagram you would draw with 0:08:42.960 --> 0:08:46.840 little corners and squares. One through thirteen would be in 0:08:46.840 --> 0:08:49.840 the middle. You'd take a cap and sometimes people would 0:08:49.880 --> 0:08:53.200 put tartar in it or take a glass and you did. 0:08:53.240 --> 0:08:55.440 There's a way you could break the top of a glass. 0:08:55.480 --> 0:08:58.120 So the whole idea is you would shoot your projectile 0:08:58.280 --> 0:09:01.640 on this little field, so to speak, and you could 0:09:01.679 --> 0:09:04.440 knock somebody out. You'd go from one and then you 0:09:04.480 --> 0:09:07.520 went to thirteen. That was really popular, and then then 0:09:07.559 --> 0:09:07.960 we called it. 0:09:08.000 --> 0:09:10.199 Tops in Philly. Interesting, but we used to always get 0:09:10.200 --> 0:09:16.200 in trouble for stealing the red tops off of milk bottles. Yeah, 0:09:16.240 --> 0:09:18.319 and all night like free put them in the freezers 0:09:18.360 --> 0:09:19.560 so they would have good traction. 0:09:19.960 --> 0:09:23.199 Okay, very similar Philly in New York City. I like 0:09:23.360 --> 0:09:27.520 to sometimes consider Philly the sixth Borough. It is because 0:09:27.520 --> 0:09:32.160 it was so connected culturally, esthetically, early graffiti, corn bread, 0:09:32.160 --> 0:09:34.080 I'm sure you know about it. So, yeah, that was 0:09:34.640 --> 0:09:38.160 just playing in the street. Was the litany of games 0:09:38.160 --> 0:09:42.240 we had, whether it was skelly, you know, all kind 0:09:42.280 --> 0:09:45.200 of games you played, but a little pink ball which 0:09:45.280 --> 0:09:51.400 was Spalldean was the popular brand, punch ball, handball, Chinese handball. 0:09:51.600 --> 0:09:53.600 You know. It was a bunch of games that we played, 0:09:53.640 --> 0:09:55.800 and that's how we played. That was the fun. We 0:09:55.920 --> 0:09:59.480 had Johnny on the pony, kick the can, red light, 0:09:59.520 --> 0:10:02.520 green light on two three coke, Olivia or ring Olivio 0:10:02.760 --> 0:10:05.520 if you guys from that era of New York you remember. 0:10:05.600 --> 0:10:08.640 So that was fun basically essentially, all right. 0:10:08.720 --> 0:10:14.200 So I also know that you had different experiences than 0:10:14.640 --> 0:10:16.800 say your peers or your friends, or at least I 0:10:16.920 --> 0:10:19.120 like to think, so, yeah, very different tho, Like, in 0:10:19.160 --> 0:10:21.120 the first ten years of your life, what is a 0:10:21.200 --> 0:10:24.880 memory that you experienced that was just like unique to you. 0:10:24.920 --> 0:10:28.840 And did you realize how different your life was than say, 0:10:29.960 --> 0:10:33.080 your neighbors, or your cousins, or whoever is in your 0:10:33.120 --> 0:10:33.600 age group. 0:10:33.920 --> 0:10:36.880 It's interesting. I didn't think of it as being that different. 0:10:37.040 --> 0:10:40.240 As I grew older and began to reflect, I realized, Oh, 0:10:40.240 --> 0:10:43.680 my goodness, what an incredible household, What an amazing things 0:10:43.760 --> 0:10:47.320 going on that my dad was connected to that rubbed 0:10:47.320 --> 0:10:49.560 off on me and stuff like that. So I guess, 0:10:49.640 --> 0:10:51.600 you know something that I get into in the book. 0:10:51.640 --> 0:10:55.720 Early on, my dad was very connected and conscious with 0:10:56.400 --> 0:10:59.840 trying to find a better way for us as a people, specifically, 0:11:00.080 --> 0:11:02.320 so he was reading everything he could read. He was 0:11:02.400 --> 0:11:07.199 listening Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, you know, as African 0:11:07.240 --> 0:11:10.520 countries are gaining their liberation. I guess in the sixties 0:11:10.559 --> 0:11:13.600 and even prior, he was super dialed into all of that. 0:11:14.040 --> 0:11:16.280 And there was one incident that I get into really 0:11:16.360 --> 0:11:20.080 dramatic it had happened. It was the day Martin Luther 0:11:20.160 --> 0:11:23.840 King was assassinated. My dad, he had an old nineteen 0:11:23.880 --> 0:11:26.840 fifty seven Chevy and a couple of his friends. We 0:11:26.960 --> 0:11:29.720 got in a car to go to the Brownsville section 0:11:30.280 --> 0:11:34.240 different parts of the city. Brownsville section of Brooklyn, Ocean Hill, Brownsville, 0:11:34.480 --> 0:11:38.080 there were people were in a rage. There were fires 0:11:38.160 --> 0:11:40.120 going on. We had first went up on the roof 0:11:40.520 --> 0:11:42.839 and we looked out because he heard there was fire here. 0:11:42.880 --> 0:11:44.520 It was fire here, and we could see the glow 0:11:44.559 --> 0:11:47.720 of these fires in the distance. My father was connected 0:11:47.720 --> 0:11:52.199 to like a community organization in the Brownsville section of Brooklyn. 0:11:52.400 --> 0:11:54.040 He said, let's go over there to make sure to 0:11:54.080 --> 0:11:55.400 try to keep it burning. 0:11:55.440 --> 0:11:57.400 Because I was like, my dad would been like, stay 0:11:57.440 --> 0:11:58.840 ass in the house. Yeah. 0:11:58.920 --> 0:12:02.280 Well, they were very involved in the community in Brownsville, 0:12:02.400 --> 0:12:06.880 which is still one of the livest edgiest parts of Brooklyn. 0:12:07.160 --> 0:12:09.760 And we went out there and while we were driving there, 0:12:09.800 --> 0:12:12.720 we were waiting at a light, I want to say, 0:12:13.080 --> 0:12:17.080 on Troy, right at the intersection before we make a 0:12:17.160 --> 0:12:20.560 left on Atlantic. While sitting there at a red light, 0:12:20.800 --> 0:12:23.680 I happened to glance to my right and there was 0:12:23.679 --> 0:12:27.800 a middle aged white man running furiously right at us, 0:12:27.840 --> 0:12:30.280 and I'm like, what's going on? And before I knew it, 0:12:30.360 --> 0:12:34.000 this man had opened the car and jumped in and 0:12:34.040 --> 0:12:37.080 literally like practically sat on top of me and right 0:12:37.120 --> 0:12:39.040 as he jumped in, it was a huge bang on 0:12:39.040 --> 0:12:41.640 the hood of a car. These black guys were chasing 0:12:41.679 --> 0:12:44.400 this man. They were enraged that Martin Luther King had 0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:47.600 been killed. This man, I do believe would have likely 0:12:47.600 --> 0:12:50.520 have been killed if not beaten really badly. He jumped 0:12:50.520 --> 0:12:53.920 in the car. My dad jumped out, scolded those guys 0:12:53.960 --> 0:12:56.560 because they banged the car. He screamed, this man is 0:12:56.640 --> 0:12:59.440 not our enemy. This man is not our enemy. I 0:12:59.600 --> 0:13:04.080 was iarified, and then we drove this man to the 0:13:04.160 --> 0:13:07.880 local police station, not far on Utica Avenue, the seventy 0:13:07.920 --> 0:13:11.040 seven precist. My dad was like, don't let them, let 0:13:11.080 --> 0:13:14.200 you leave on your own. Make sure they took he 0:13:14.320 --> 0:13:17.839 was on Atlantic Avenue. The Long Island Railroad ran. He 0:13:17.960 --> 0:13:20.720 was working at some whatever it was. I don't know, 0:13:20.760 --> 0:13:22.480 but he was walking to a stop on the Long 0:13:22.480 --> 0:13:25.000 Island Railroad, not aware of what was going on in 0:13:25.040 --> 0:13:28.000 the community, maybe not even aware Martin Luther King had 0:13:28.000 --> 0:13:33.080 been assassinated that day. So it was a traumatic, terrifying experience. 0:13:33.160 --> 0:13:35.480 But I remembered how my dad did the right thing. 0:13:35.920 --> 0:13:40.880 Took this man to the precinct and dropped him off 0:13:40.920 --> 0:13:43.079 and made sure He said, don't let you leave here 0:13:43.120 --> 0:13:45.160 on your own, make sure they drop you off at 0:13:45.160 --> 0:13:47.800 the train station. Right. It's one of those things you 0:13:47.920 --> 0:13:48.960 never forget, you know. 0:13:49.160 --> 0:13:55.000 And so okay, like my childhood, we had communities, and 0:13:55.160 --> 0:13:57.080 I think I was like the last generation of like 0:13:57.120 --> 0:13:59.880 the free lunch program from the Panthers and wo wow, 0:14:00.240 --> 0:14:03.480 when did that weighing off? Like when did anyone carry 0:14:03.480 --> 0:14:05.880 that on after your father? Did he just do it? 0:14:06.040 --> 0:14:08.480 What do you mean as far as like community organization 0:14:08.520 --> 0:14:12.000 and what is that entitled? As far as like community organizations? 0:14:12.559 --> 0:14:15.839 Well, you know, my dad was connected. There were a 0:14:15.880 --> 0:14:19.280 lot of people that were had become activists of sorts 0:14:20.840 --> 0:14:23.560 that were involved in very because I guess a part 0:14:23.600 --> 0:14:27.120 of what happened, I guess with all the doing the 0:14:27.200 --> 0:14:30.680 Johnson administration, there was a lot of money that went 0:14:30.720 --> 0:14:33.760 into the communities to kind of right some of the wrongs, 0:14:34.240 --> 0:14:37.880 to give some it was. They were like anti poverty programs, 0:14:37.880 --> 0:14:40.040 if you will. So my dad was connected with different 0:14:40.080 --> 0:14:43.800 guys that were involved in these community activities to get 0:14:43.840 --> 0:14:46.840 people jobs and employment. So he was just dialed in 0:14:47.520 --> 0:14:50.520 and our house was sort of like an interesting part 0:14:50.520 --> 0:14:52.960 of also my growing up was because my dad had 0:14:53.000 --> 0:14:55.680 consumed so much knowledge and he was kind of really 0:14:55.760 --> 0:14:58.800 up to the minute. Plus his jazz connections, there was 0:14:59.080 --> 0:15:01.760 at least four days out of every week there was 0:15:01.800 --> 0:15:04.240 a group of guys that would gather in the basement 0:15:04.280 --> 0:15:07.240 of a house to talk, discuss, stay up to the 0:15:07.320 --> 0:15:10.760 minute on what was going on, as change was happening 0:15:10.920 --> 0:15:13.520 and the Black Panthers were coming and all this stuff 0:15:13.600 --> 0:15:16.160 was going on. So he was super tied in. So 0:15:16.240 --> 0:15:19.600 that was also something that went on constantly as a youth, 0:15:20.000 --> 0:15:23.040 and I would pick up pieces and snippets. As you 0:15:23.120 --> 0:15:26.680 probably know, Max Roach, the great bebop jazz drummer, was 0:15:26.800 --> 0:15:30.560 my dad's childhood friend. It was my godfather, and so 0:15:30.640 --> 0:15:33.240 those my dad would be in his ear. They were 0:15:33.440 --> 0:15:36.400 all very concerned about all of these issues going on. 0:15:36.560 --> 0:15:39.800 That was something that was very prescient at that time. 0:15:39.920 --> 0:15:43.040 And some stuff that I picked up on didn't realize 0:15:43.040 --> 0:15:45.880 how much it affected me, but it did have an 0:15:45.880 --> 0:15:49.400 effect on the moves I would make, controlling the narrative. 0:15:49.320 --> 0:15:52.760 Your community organizer, your hip hop community organizer. 0:15:52.960 --> 0:15:56.680 Yeah, you know, my earliest aspiration as a young kid 0:15:56.720 --> 0:15:58.840 was to be an architect, which didn't work out. But 0:15:59.480 --> 0:16:01.360 I think in terms of what I've been able to 0:16:01.360 --> 0:16:03.840 have my hands on. Culturally, I feel it's the type 0:16:03.840 --> 0:16:08.000 of architecture in terms of building and controlling the narrative 0:16:08.160 --> 0:16:10.240 was a key thing for me and whatever I did, 0:16:10.320 --> 0:16:14.000 because I would pick up snippets of their conversations that 0:16:14.160 --> 0:16:17.640 they wanted to run labels. They was guys were incredibly intelligent, 0:16:17.760 --> 0:16:21.040 super worldly, but when you think of the dynamics of 0:16:21.080 --> 0:16:23.720 that time, the hands were tied, if you will, in 0:16:23.800 --> 0:16:25.640 terms of what one could and could not do. I 0:16:25.680 --> 0:16:28.760 used to hear stories about Charlie Mingus wanting to start 0:16:28.760 --> 0:16:31.120 a label. One of my dad's close friends was close 0:16:31.160 --> 0:16:33.680 with Mngus. He wanted to have a label. But those 0:16:33.720 --> 0:16:37.120 things weren't always They weren't able to happen in the 0:16:37.160 --> 0:16:42.640 way people had desired, and they were frustrated. And you know, 0:16:42.720 --> 0:16:45.440 I always hadn't in my mind to you know, whatever 0:16:45.480 --> 0:16:47.320 I put together, I wanted to be able to control 0:16:47.520 --> 0:16:50.840 that narrative or make sure I can direct what that 0:16:50.960 --> 0:16:52.240 narrative would be. 0:16:52.400 --> 0:16:56.960 Do you think that maybe subconsciously you figured out the 0:16:57.080 --> 0:17:01.360 key to that sort of action, as is the power 0:17:01.360 --> 0:17:05.199 of connecting, like hey, let me meet this person, let 0:17:05.240 --> 0:17:07.800 me go to this part of town and see what's hitting. 0:17:07.680 --> 0:17:11.080 Here let me Yeah, somewhat. I didn't look at it 0:17:11.160 --> 0:17:13.359 like that, but I did think in terms of I 0:17:13.400 --> 0:17:16.440 had a slight understanding of how one gets a bill 0:17:16.520 --> 0:17:21.240 passed through Congress. You have to lobby and connect and convince. 0:17:21.800 --> 0:17:25.280 So I had a rough understanding. It wasn't clearly defined, 0:17:25.800 --> 0:17:30.240 but reaching out and being able to communicate with whoever 0:17:30.480 --> 0:17:34.479 was there was something I was determined to do. And 0:17:34.560 --> 0:17:37.439 I guess what really got that moving for me was 0:17:38.640 --> 0:17:43.600 specifically seeing the beginnings of the punk rock, new wave 0:17:43.840 --> 0:17:46.439 kind of revolution, if you will. I remember there was 0:17:46.480 --> 0:17:49.120 a page two or three story in the New York Times. 0:17:49.200 --> 0:17:51.640 Luckily my dad read everything, had always had all kinds 0:17:51.640 --> 0:17:56.560 of publications and reading about the sex pistols and how 0:17:56.600 --> 0:18:00.239 shocking that was, you know, coming at the Queen of 0:18:00.240 --> 0:18:02.640 England and what they were talking about was like really 0:18:02.720 --> 0:18:05.520 heavy stuff. And I began to look at some of 0:18:05.560 --> 0:18:08.720 what was going on around that. And as I'm developing 0:18:08.800 --> 0:18:14.560 ideas about this graffiti as art, this new music, how 0:18:14.600 --> 0:18:18.760 to bring this all together and present as one, I 0:18:18.800 --> 0:18:21.600 figured those people seem wild and crazy enough. If I 0:18:21.640 --> 0:18:24.200 can connect, I might be able to get an audience 0:18:24.280 --> 0:18:26.960 with some of these people to share these ideas which 0:18:27.080 --> 0:18:30.720 nobody was embracing or there was no love for any 0:18:30.760 --> 0:18:31.640 of this at the time. 0:18:31.720 --> 0:18:32.680 You were an army of one. 0:18:33.119 --> 0:18:38.240 I was an army of one or sure, and yeah, 0:18:38.280 --> 0:18:41.840 so that would be key in terms of meeting people 0:18:41.880 --> 0:18:46.159 that I guess it. I did connect, but it wasn't 0:18:46.440 --> 0:18:49.119 a specific thing. Ha, I wanted to make all these connections. 0:18:49.160 --> 0:18:50.800 I was just trying to get people to listen to 0:18:50.800 --> 0:18:55.679 my story, understand this crazy idea I had, and I 0:18:55.760 --> 0:18:59.120 was embraced and immediately found a lot of support from 0:18:59.160 --> 0:19:02.720 people in that new wave space, and that got things 0:19:02.760 --> 0:19:18.760 really moving aggressively. If you will, in retrospect, what was. 0:19:18.760 --> 0:19:24.119 The first act of creativity that you part took in. 0:19:24.160 --> 0:19:26.200 What was your first creative project? 0:19:26.600 --> 0:19:29.600 Well, besides me and a kid having art in school, 0:19:29.600 --> 0:19:33.040 whether it's finger painting in the single digit years of school, 0:19:33.560 --> 0:19:35.679 that was always a fun thing to do. But I 0:19:35.720 --> 0:19:39.520 guess it was really I did have a brief gig 0:19:40.480 --> 0:19:46.000 designing the imagery for these kind of candles that would 0:19:46.000 --> 0:19:49.840 be sold and that people would prey on. And you'd 0:19:49.920 --> 0:19:55.000 have these candles, yeah, like Lucky thirteen. People would have 0:19:55.080 --> 0:19:57.720 these things to hit your number or to bring good luck. 0:19:57.760 --> 0:19:59.920 Goodwill were designed that multicolored candle. 0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:03.200 I designed the image that would go on the glass sticker, 0:20:03.520 --> 0:20:04.080 a sticker. 0:20:04.320 --> 0:20:06.959 Well, it was like a well nowadays there's prints and 0:20:07.080 --> 0:20:10.760 Drake and Madonna, and someone showed one of my face 0:20:10.840 --> 0:20:13.399 on it, so you you those stickers that ever go 0:20:13.440 --> 0:20:15.720 on those candles kind of this It. 0:20:15.800 --> 0:20:18.639 Wasn't quite a sticker, but the imagery that would get printed, 0:20:18.640 --> 0:20:21.160 it would kind of turned it into like a screen, 0:20:21.320 --> 0:20:24.119 a one colored print that would be printed on the 0:20:24.280 --> 0:20:25.560 on the glass. And that was kind of like a 0:20:25.640 --> 0:20:29.400 first real kind of hired to do art type of thing. 0:20:29.440 --> 0:20:31.320 A buddy of mine termed me onto that, a kid 0:20:31.320 --> 0:20:34.960 across the street from me on Hancock Street investa and 0:20:35.000 --> 0:20:36.879 I did, I did. I did a bunch of those, 0:20:37.440 --> 0:20:39.320 so I was like when I was like, oh my god, 0:20:39.359 --> 0:20:41.800 I was hired to do art. But really I guess 0:20:42.000 --> 0:20:45.320 from there that the more serious thing was when I 0:20:45.359 --> 0:20:49.240 connected with Lee Canonis became a part of five five, 0:20:49.359 --> 0:20:52.960 my mission to elevate this work into a kind of 0:20:53.119 --> 0:20:56.840 art gallery museum, find people that really understood the art 0:20:56.880 --> 0:20:59.040 to look at us. And that all came from the 0:20:59.119 --> 0:21:02.560 connections I made with people on the new wave scene, 0:21:02.760 --> 0:21:05.360 particularly Glen O'Brien advised me to you need to get 0:21:05.400 --> 0:21:09.000 some publicity. And the first publicity came in the Village 0:21:09.119 --> 0:21:12.600 Voice newspaper, a piece on myself and what Lee and 0:21:12.600 --> 0:21:15.520 I were trying to do. And that piece had my 0:21:15.800 --> 0:21:18.400 home phone number. You could reach reach out to us. 0:21:18.880 --> 0:21:21.520 We would paint a mural, or we would on your 0:21:21.560 --> 0:21:25.480 wall or whatever had five thousand square foot and that 0:21:25.600 --> 0:21:26.920 was all and the phone. 0:21:26.720 --> 0:21:29.159 Started reading thousand square foot. Yeah, we figured, you know, 0:21:29.720 --> 0:21:33.280 now it's five hundred thousand dollars easily right. Oh god. 0:21:33.320 --> 0:21:35.760 But we did get a few commissions came in. A 0:21:35.880 --> 0:21:38.200 few people hired us to come and spray paint a wall, 0:21:38.320 --> 0:21:40.400 you know, a couple. We did a few walls. But 0:21:40.680 --> 0:21:43.240 out of that, an Italian art dealer from a very 0:21:43.280 --> 0:21:48.000 prestigious gallery in Rome, the Gallery of Lamadusa, reached out 0:21:48.600 --> 0:21:53.439 and wanted to acquire some work engage with us. He 0:21:53.520 --> 0:21:57.359 saw we were cool. He had similar ideas that he 0:21:57.400 --> 0:22:00.200 would come. It's a very prestigious dealer and and he 0:22:00.320 --> 0:22:02.400 had homes all over the world, but when he would 0:22:02.400 --> 0:22:04.199 come to New York, he'd ride the train. He was 0:22:04.240 --> 0:22:08.200 fascinated and so he basically offered us an exhibit at 0:22:08.200 --> 0:22:13.280 this gallery in Rome, and that really was beyond expectation 0:22:13.480 --> 0:22:16.360 and it really got the ball rolling for what we 0:22:16.400 --> 0:22:18.159 wanted to do as artists. And then it kind of 0:22:18.200 --> 0:22:22.040 opened the door for other people from that same space 0:22:22.800 --> 0:22:25.679