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Speaker 1: Quest Loft Show is a production of iHeartRadio. All right,

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Speaker 1: good people, this is the Quest Love Show, reminding you

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Speaker 1: folks that we are also a visual experience. Like a

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Speaker 1: lot of you are just taking this in as a podcast,

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Speaker 1: but we are on YouTube and we are gladly accepting subscriptions,

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Speaker 1: likes and follows. All right, that's very important if you

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Speaker 1: like what we're putting down on the show. What can

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Speaker 1: I say? Our guest today is a personal personal hero

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Speaker 1: of mine. He taught me the power of creative aisle crossing.

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Speaker 1: I learned never to burn a bridge because you never

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Speaker 1: know who you're gonna need in your journey in life.

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Speaker 1: He taught me the power of being a renaissance person.

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Speaker 1: He taught me the power of speaking of bridges, being

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Speaker 1: a bridge like connecting people from all walks of life.

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Speaker 1: And I guess through him, I learned that hip hop

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Speaker 1: is really it's an art form and we need to

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Speaker 1: hold it up as such. Of course, he's ubiquitous. You

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Speaker 1: may know him too if you're a New York resident

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Speaker 1: of a certain era. Of course you might have seen

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Speaker 1: his legendary tags or his pieces on trains if you

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Speaker 1: were lucky enough. He was the first person to get

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Speaker 1: a shot out on hip hop's first number one rap single,

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Speaker 1: not to mention he was instrumental and really bringing hip

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Speaker 1: hop to the world. Be it first time that I

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Speaker 1: got to see an actual, authentic representation of it if

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Speaker 1: you saw Charlie Adhearn's Wild Style movie. Not to mention

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Speaker 1: the platinum plus flooding of a lot of our classic

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Speaker 1: era hip hop artists through a vehicle called YEO and

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Speaker 1: TV raps, we would have never have heard of Jazzy

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Speaker 1: Jeff for the Fresh Prince or NWA or Public Enemy

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Speaker 1: or Queen Latifa or a Tribe or any of those

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Speaker 1: pioneering groups that inspired us to go on. And he

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Speaker 1: has a new book called Everybody's Fly and it gives

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Speaker 1: astonishing detail about his life on Hancock Street in Brooklyn.

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Speaker 1: What can I say? The flies of them all fab

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Speaker 1: hire Freddy Dude, the way so much, the way that

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Speaker 1: Tarik and I would dream like all right, so you

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Speaker 1: know I'm big on like manifesting and all that manifesting thing. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I would say that there's always two scenarios that

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Speaker 1: Tarik and I and our journey, you know, it was

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Speaker 1: like a seven year journey from high school to like

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Speaker 1: when we first started busking on the street corners, right,

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Speaker 1: And the first one is always what I call well Treek,

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Speaker 1: and I'll always be something like, well trek Man. We

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Speaker 1: just finished a four month run of like Indian Africa

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Speaker 1: going on. We laugh, like wed be on the bus

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Speaker 1: coming home from our insurance jobs. But like it was

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Speaker 1: always a well Tarik moment. And the other one, Tarik's

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Speaker 1: version was always ah, yeah, we live here on the

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Speaker 1: fifty two bus at fifty second and Spruce Street with

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Speaker 1: the one and only Questlove and like he would pretend

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Speaker 1: he was you, and like, I guess the whole thing

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Speaker 1: was like, you know, maybe one day we could be

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Speaker 1: on your MTV reps and Wow, to talk to you

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Speaker 1: now in this setting, one is ironic that I'm interviewing you.

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Speaker 2: So it's perfect amazing. Yeah, that's so true.

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Speaker 1: I feel like this is gonna be a very this

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Speaker 1: will be a terry gross question.

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Speaker 2: Haha.

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Speaker 1: Okay, what is fly and who came up.

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Speaker 2: With that term? Wow? Well, you know before it was

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Speaker 2: I think you could probably safely say popularized in the

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Speaker 2: hip hop space, very early hip hop space. In the

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Speaker 2: Boogie Down Bronx, there was a great movie blaxploitation, although

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Speaker 2: I'm not always crazy about that term, but super fly fly,

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Speaker 2: so fly was just a term that meant, you know,

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Speaker 2: you was cool, you had your gear right, you look right,

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Speaker 2: you stepped right. And so in early hip hop, fly

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Speaker 2: guys and fly girls was the way the participants were referenced,

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Speaker 2: and so it kind of was sort of amplified in

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Speaker 2: that space. And then in explaining to Chris Stine and

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Speaker 2: Debbie Harriet and Nucleus of Blondie what was going on,

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Speaker 2: what this scene was about, how it had its own

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Speaker 2: slang and its own look and its own feel and sound,

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Speaker 2: they kind of took it from me, put it on

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Speaker 2: their record, and now I uh put it on the

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Speaker 2: cover of my book as a title as you should,

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Speaker 2: yeah should? Yeah.

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Speaker 1: You have one of the more colorful alliteration names, fab

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Speaker 1: five Freddy Yeah. Can you give me the history of

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Speaker 1: how that moniker landed with you?

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Speaker 2: Yes, sir, Well, you know, when I became a part

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Speaker 2: of a group of graffiti writers that were legendary call

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Speaker 2: the Fabulous Five short the Fab five, I became like,

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Speaker 2: let's say, the final member to join, if you will.

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Speaker 2: But my mission when I connected with Lee kenyonis who

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Speaker 2: was the premium member of that group as a just

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Speaker 2: outstanding painter muralists, if you will. When I became a

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Speaker 2: part of that, I would tag up you know, fred

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Speaker 2: and then Fab five, Fabulous five probably you know, just

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Speaker 2: to tag Fab five and that became has just morphed

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Speaker 2: itself into Fab five Freddy.

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Speaker 1: So before you came, were they the Fabulous four?

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Speaker 2: No, they were the Fab five. They were I guess

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Speaker 2: at different times, probably more than five.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 2: It was just a cool thing, probably inspired by the

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Speaker 2: by the Beatles to a certain extent, but probably even

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Speaker 2: more so the kind of influence of comics, and you

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Speaker 2: had the Fantastic Four, and so there was like that

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Speaker 2: superhero influence which I guess influenced a lot of graffiti

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Speaker 2: people as well as hip hop people. So it kind

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Speaker 2: of was a popular thing, you know, the Treacherous Three,

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Speaker 2: Fantastic Four, this, the four, the three to two.

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Speaker 1: What year is this when the Fabulous well, the Fabulous

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Speaker 1: five as a graffiti crew, they were strong through the

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Speaker 1: seventies and they became known for painting whole car murals

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Speaker 1: and they were just outstanding.

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Speaker 2: And Lee, like I said, Lee keg Jonis was the

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Speaker 2: premium member so they were renowned for that. But it

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Speaker 2: was seeing Lee's work, particularly a mural he had did

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Speaker 2: in the Lower east Side at fifty six Park on

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Speaker 2: Madison Street. He was the first guy to paint like

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Speaker 2: an entire handball court, as opposed to the like, you know,

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Speaker 2: to the format of painting a train, which was a

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Speaker 2: kind of a long horizontal. He painted this huge, kind

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Speaker 2: of not a square but thing, which was outstanding. And

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Speaker 2: when I saw that work, and he had written up

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Speaker 2: in the upper corner, graffiti is an art, and if

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Speaker 2: art is a crime, that God forgive all the fact

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Speaker 2: that he was aware this was an art, and it

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Speaker 2: clicked with ideas I had that pop artists had been

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Speaker 2: inspired by similar things that had inspired graffiti, as it

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Speaker 2: really developed into a way to make pictures and really

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Speaker 2: tell stories with the imagery, and I had a feeling

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Speaker 2: like we could move from the subway street space into

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Speaker 2: an art space. I shared these ideas with Lee and

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Speaker 2: we became a team, and hence I became a part

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Speaker 2: of the group. I got with the original members, broke

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Speaker 2: down what my plans were. They was like, go with it, baby,

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Speaker 2: and I went with it all right.

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Speaker 1: So you lived in New York city at various transit.

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Speaker 1: I want to ask you about each period. So the

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Speaker 1: first ten years of your life, which I can say

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Speaker 1: is the sixties.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, what is.

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Speaker 1: Your happiest memory of nineteen sixties New York?

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Speaker 2: Like, what is a great day?

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Speaker 1: What's happening?

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Speaker 2: A great day? Was, you know, playing in the street?

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Speaker 2: I did all that classic New York street stuff. We

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Speaker 2: played all kinds of games. On the side was what

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Speaker 2: was your main game? Some games were somewhat seasonal because

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Speaker 2: when it warmed up you could play it was a

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Speaker 2: game called skelly.

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Speaker 1: Is that a street pool where you take a.

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Speaker 2: Time of similar to street pool if you will. You

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Speaker 2: had a kind of a diagram you would draw with

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Speaker 2: little corners and squares. One through thirteen would be in

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Speaker 2: the middle. You'd take a cap and sometimes people would

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Speaker 2: put tartar in it or take a glass and you did.

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Speaker 2: There's a way you could break the top of a glass.

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Speaker 2: So the whole idea is you would shoot your projectile

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Speaker 2: on this little field, so to speak, and you could

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Speaker 2: knock somebody out. You'd go from one and then you

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Speaker 2: went to thirteen. That was really popular, and then then

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Speaker 2: we called it.

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Speaker 1: Tops in Philly. Interesting, but we used to always get

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Speaker 1: in trouble for stealing the red tops off of milk bottles. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and all night like free put them in the freezers

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Speaker 1: so they would have good traction.

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Speaker 2: Okay, very similar Philly in New York City. I like

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Speaker 2: to sometimes consider Philly the sixth Borough. It is because

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Speaker 2: it was so connected culturally, esthetically, early graffiti, corn bread,

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Speaker 2: I'm sure you know about it. So, yeah, that was

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Speaker 2: just playing in the street. Was the litany of games

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Speaker 2: we had, whether it was skelly, you know, all kind

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Speaker 2: of games you played, but a little pink ball which

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Speaker 2: was Spalldean was the popular brand, punch ball, handball, Chinese handball.

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Speaker 2: You know. It was a bunch of games that we played,

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Speaker 2: and that's how we played. That was the fun. We

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Speaker 2: had Johnny on the pony, kick the can, red light,

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Speaker 2: green light on two three coke, Olivia or ring Olivio

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Speaker 2: if you guys from that era of New York you remember.

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Speaker 2: So that was fun basically essentially, all right.

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Speaker 1: So I also know that you had different experiences than

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Speaker 1: say your peers or your friends, or at least I

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Speaker 1: like to think, so, yeah, very different tho, Like, in

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Speaker 1: the first ten years of your life, what is a

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Speaker 1: memory that you experienced that was just like unique to you.

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Speaker 1: And did you realize how different your life was than say,

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Speaker 1: your neighbors, or your cousins, or whoever is in your

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Speaker 1: age group.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting. I didn't think of it as being that different.

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Speaker 2: As I grew older and began to reflect, I realized, Oh,

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Speaker 2: my goodness, what an incredible household, What an amazing things

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Speaker 2: going on that my dad was connected to that rubbed

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Speaker 2: off on me and stuff like that. So I guess,

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Speaker 2: you know something that I get into in the book.

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Speaker 2: Early on, my dad was very connected and conscious with

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Speaker 2: trying to find a better way for us as a people, specifically,

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Speaker 2: so he was reading everything he could read. He was

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Speaker 2: listening Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, you know, as African

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Speaker 2: countries are gaining their liberation. I guess in the sixties

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Speaker 2: and even prior, he was super dialed into all of that.

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Speaker 2: And there was one incident that I get into really

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Speaker 2: dramatic it had happened. It was the day Martin Luther

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Speaker 2: King was assassinated. My dad, he had an old nineteen

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Speaker 2: fifty seven Chevy and a couple of his friends. We

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Speaker 2: got in a car to go to the Brownsville section

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Speaker 2: different parts of the city. Brownsville section of Brooklyn, Ocean Hill, Brownsville,

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Speaker 2: there were people were in a rage. There were fires

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Speaker 2: going on. We had first went up on the roof

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Speaker 2: and we looked out because he heard there was fire here.

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Speaker 2: It was fire here, and we could see the glow

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Speaker 2: of these fires in the distance. My father was connected

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Speaker 2: to like a community organization in the Brownsville section of Brooklyn.

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Speaker 2: He said, let's go over there to make sure to

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Speaker 2: try to keep it burning.

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Speaker 1: Because I was like, my dad would been like, stay

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Speaker 1: ass in the house. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Well, they were very involved in the community in Brownsville,

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Speaker 2: which is still one of the livest edgiest parts of Brooklyn.

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Speaker 2: And we went out there and while we were driving there,

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Speaker 2: we were waiting at a light, I want to say,

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Speaker 2: on Troy, right at the intersection before we make a

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Speaker 2: left on Atlantic. While sitting there at a red light,

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Speaker 2: I happened to glance to my right and there was

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Speaker 2: a middle aged white man running furiously right at us,

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Speaker 2: and I'm like, what's going on? And before I knew it,

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Speaker 2: this man had opened the car and jumped in and

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Speaker 2: literally like practically sat on top of me and right

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Speaker 2: as he jumped in, it was a huge bang on

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Speaker 2: the hood of a car. These black guys were chasing

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Speaker 2: this man. They were enraged that Martin Luther King had

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Speaker 2: been killed. This man, I do believe would have likely

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Speaker 2: have been killed if not beaten really badly. He jumped

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Speaker 2: in the car. My dad jumped out, scolded those guys

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Speaker 2: because they banged the car. He screamed, this man is

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Speaker 2: not our enemy. This man is not our enemy. I

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Speaker 2: was iarified, and then we drove this man to the

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Speaker 2: local police station, not far on Utica Avenue, the seventy

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Speaker 2: seven precist. My dad was like, don't let them, let

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Speaker 2: you leave on your own. Make sure they took he

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Speaker 2: was on Atlantic Avenue. The Long Island Railroad ran. He

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Speaker 2: was working at some whatever it was. I don't know,

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Speaker 2: but he was walking to a stop on the Long

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Speaker 2: Island Railroad, not aware of what was going on in

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Speaker 2: the community, maybe not even aware Martin Luther King had

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Speaker 2: been assassinated that day. So it was a traumatic, terrifying experience.

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Speaker 2: But I remembered how my dad did the right thing.

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Speaker 2: Took this man to the precinct and dropped him off

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Speaker 2: and made sure He said, don't let you leave here

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Speaker 2: on your own, make sure they drop you off at

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Speaker 2: the train station. Right. It's one of those things you

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Speaker 2: never forget, you know.

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Speaker 1: And so okay, like my childhood, we had communities, and

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Speaker 1: I think I was like the last generation of like

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Speaker 1: the free lunch program from the Panthers and wo wow,

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Speaker 1: when did that weighing off? Like when did anyone carry

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Speaker 1: that on after your father? Did he just do it?

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Speaker 1: What do you mean as far as like community organization

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Speaker 1: and what is that entitled? As far as like community organizations?

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, my dad was connected. There were a

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Speaker 2: lot of people that were had become activists of sorts

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Speaker 2: that were involved in very because I guess a part

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Speaker 2: of what happened, I guess with all the doing the

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Speaker 2: Johnson administration, there was a lot of money that went

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Speaker 2: into the communities to kind of right some of the wrongs,

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Speaker 2: to give some it was. They were like anti poverty programs,

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Speaker 2: if you will. So my dad was connected with different

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Speaker 2: guys that were involved in these community activities to get

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Speaker 2: people jobs and employment. So he was just dialed in

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Speaker 2: and our house was sort of like an interesting part

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Speaker 2: of also my growing up was because my dad had

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Speaker 2: consumed so much knowledge and he was kind of really

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Speaker 2: up to the minute. Plus his jazz connections, there was

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Speaker 2: at least four days out of every week there was

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Speaker 2: a group of guys that would gather in the basement

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Speaker 2: of a house to talk, discuss, stay up to the

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Speaker 2: minute on what was going on, as change was happening

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Speaker 2: and the Black Panthers were coming and all this stuff

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Speaker 2: was going on. So he was super tied in. So

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Speaker 2: that was also something that went on constantly as a youth,

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Speaker 2: and I would pick up pieces and snippets. As you

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Speaker 2: probably know, Max Roach, the great bebop jazz drummer, was

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Speaker 2: my dad's childhood friend. It was my godfather, and so

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Speaker 2: those my dad would be in his ear. They were

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Speaker 2: all very concerned about all of these issues going on.

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Speaker 2: That was something that was very prescient at that time.

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Speaker 2: And some stuff that I picked up on didn't realize

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Speaker 2: how much it affected me, but it did have an

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Speaker 2: effect on the moves I would make, controlling the narrative.

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Speaker 1: Your community organizer, your hip hop community organizer.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, my earliest aspiration as a young kid

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Speaker 2: was to be an architect, which didn't work out. But

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Speaker 2: I think in terms of what I've been able to

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Speaker 2: have my hands on. Culturally, I feel it's the type

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Speaker 2: of architecture in terms of building and controlling the narrative

290
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Speaker 2: was a key thing for me and whatever I did,

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Speaker 2: because I would pick up snippets of their conversations that

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Speaker 2: they wanted to run labels. They was guys were incredibly intelligent,

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Speaker 2: super worldly, but when you think of the dynamics of

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Speaker 2: that time, the hands were tied, if you will, in

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Speaker 2: terms of what one could and could not do. I

296
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Speaker 2: used to hear stories about Charlie Mingus wanting to start

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Speaker 2: a label. One of my dad's close friends was close

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Speaker 2: with Mngus. He wanted to have a label. But those

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Speaker 2: things weren't always They weren't able to happen in the

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Speaker 2: way people had desired, and they were frustrated. And you know,

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Speaker 2: I always hadn't in my mind to you know, whatever

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Speaker 2: I put together, I wanted to be able to control

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Speaker 2: that narrative or make sure I can direct what that

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Speaker 2: narrative would be.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that maybe subconsciously you figured out the

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Speaker 1: key to that sort of action, as is the power

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Speaker 1: of connecting, like hey, let me meet this person, let

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Speaker 1: me go to this part of town and see what's hitting.

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Speaker 2: Here let me Yeah, somewhat. I didn't look at it

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Speaker 2: like that, but I did think in terms of I

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Speaker 2: had a slight understanding of how one gets a bill

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Speaker 2: passed through Congress. You have to lobby and connect and convince.

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Speaker 2: So I had a rough understanding. It wasn't clearly defined,

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Speaker 2: but reaching out and being able to communicate with whoever

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Speaker 2: was there was something I was determined to do. And

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Speaker 2: I guess what really got that moving for me was

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Speaker 2: specifically seeing the beginnings of the punk rock, new wave

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Speaker 2: kind of revolution, if you will. I remember there was

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Speaker 2: a page two or three story in the New York Times.

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Speaker 2: Luckily my dad read everything, had always had all kinds

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Speaker 2: of publications and reading about the sex pistols and how

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Speaker 2: shocking that was, you know, coming at the Queen of

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Speaker 2: England and what they were talking about was like really

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Speaker 2: heavy stuff. And I began to look at some of

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Speaker 2: what was going on around that. And as I'm developing

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Speaker 2: ideas about this graffiti as art, this new music, how

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Speaker 2: to bring this all together and present as one, I

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Speaker 2: figured those people seem wild and crazy enough. If I

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Speaker 2: can connect, I might be able to get an audience

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Speaker 2: with some of these people to share these ideas which

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Speaker 2: nobody was embracing or there was no love for any

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Speaker 2: of this at the time.

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Speaker 1: You were an army of one.

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Speaker 2: I was an army of one or sure, and yeah,

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Speaker 2: so that would be key in terms of meeting people

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Speaker 2: that I guess it. I did connect, but it wasn't

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00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:49,119
Speaker 2: a specific thing. Ha, I wanted to make all these connections.

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Speaker 2: I was just trying to get people to listen to

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Speaker 2: my story, understand this crazy idea I had, and I

340
00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:59,120
Speaker 2: was embraced and immediately found a lot of support from

341
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Speaker 2: people in that new wave space, and that got things

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Speaker 2: really moving aggressively. If you will, in retrospect, what was.

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Speaker 1: The first act of creativity that you part took in.

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Speaker 1: What was your first creative project?

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Speaker 2: Well, besides me and a kid having art in school,

346
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Speaker 2: whether it's finger painting in the single digit years of school,

347
00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:35,679
Speaker 2: that was always a fun thing to do. But I

348
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Speaker 2: guess it was really I did have a brief gig

349
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Speaker 2: designing the imagery for these kind of candles that would

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00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:49,840
Speaker 2: be sold and that people would prey on. And you'd

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00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:55,000
Speaker 2: have these candles, yeah, like Lucky thirteen. People would have

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Speaker 2: these things to hit your number or to bring good luck.

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Speaker 1: Goodwill were designed that multicolored candle.

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Speaker 2: I designed the image that would go on the glass sticker,

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Speaker 2: a sticker.

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Speaker 1: Well, it was like a well nowadays there's prints and

357
00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:10,760
Speaker 1: Drake and Madonna, and someone showed one of my face

358
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Speaker 1: on it, so you you those stickers that ever go

359
00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:15,720
Speaker 1: on those candles kind of this It.

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00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:18,639
Speaker 2: Wasn't quite a sticker, but the imagery that would get printed,

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Speaker 2: it would kind of turned it into like a screen,

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Speaker 2: a one colored print that would be printed on the

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Speaker 2: on the glass. And that was kind of like a

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Speaker 2: first real kind of hired to do art type of thing.

365
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Speaker 2: A buddy of mine termed me onto that, a kid

366
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Speaker 2: across the street from me on Hancock Street investa and

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Speaker 2: I did, I did. I did a bunch of those,

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Speaker 2: so I was like when I was like, oh my god,

369
00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:41,800
Speaker 2: I was hired to do art. But really I guess

370
00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:45,320
Speaker 2: from there that the more serious thing was when I

371
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Speaker 2: connected with Lee Canonis became a part of five five,

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00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:52,960
Speaker 2: my mission to elevate this work into a kind of

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Speaker 2: art gallery museum, find people that really understood the art

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00:20:56,880 --> 00:20:59,040
Speaker 2: to look at us. And that all came from the

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00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:02,560
Speaker 2: connections I made with people on the new wave scene,

376
00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:05,360
Speaker 2: particularly Glen O'Brien advised me to you need to get

377
00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:09,000
Speaker 2: some publicity. And the first publicity came in the Village

378
00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:12,600
Speaker 2: Voice newspaper, a piece on myself and what Lee and

379
00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:15,520
Speaker 2: I were trying to do. And that piece had my

380
00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:18,400
Speaker 2: home phone number. You could reach reach out to us.

381
00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:21,520
Speaker 2: We would paint a mural, or we would on your

382
00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:25,480
Speaker 2: wall or whatever had five thousand square foot and that

383
00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:26,920
Speaker 2: was all and the phone.

384
00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:29,159
Speaker 1: Started reading thousand square foot. Yeah, we figured, you know,

385
00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:33,280
Speaker 1: now it's five hundred thousand dollars easily right. Oh god.

386
00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:35,760
Speaker 2: But we did get a few commissions came in. A

387
00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:38,200
Speaker 2: few people hired us to come and spray paint a wall,

388
00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:40,400
Speaker 2: you know, a couple. We did a few walls. But

389
00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:43,240
Speaker 2: out of that, an Italian art dealer from a very

390
00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:48,000
Speaker 2: prestigious gallery in Rome, the Gallery of Lamadusa, reached out

391
00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:53,439
Speaker 2: and wanted to acquire some work engage with us. He

392
00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:57,359
Speaker 2: saw we were cool. He had similar ideas that he

393
00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:00,200
Speaker 2: would come. It's a very prestigious dealer and and he

394
00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:02,400
Speaker 2: had homes all over the world, but when he would

395
00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:04,199
Speaker 2: come to New York, he'd ride the train. He was

396
00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:08,200
Speaker 2: fascinated and so he basically offered us an exhibit at

397
00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:13,280
Speaker 2: this gallery in Rome, and that really was beyond expectation

398
00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:16,360
Speaker 2: and it really got the ball rolling for what we

399
00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:18,159
Speaker 2: wanted to do as artists. And then it kind of

400
00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:22,040
Speaker 2: opened the door for other people from that same space

401
00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:25,679
Speaker 2: that we kind of pulled in to get down with this.

402
00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:30,960
Speaker 2: That included Futura, Crash Days, Pink and so it was

403
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:34,080
Speaker 2: a lot that happened in a miraculous way. But that

404
00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:36,320
Speaker 2: was a key thing that set it up. I had

405
00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:40,520
Speaker 2: also had recently become friends with Jean Michel Boskiot and

406
00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:43,320
Speaker 2: he was just like me, same age. We're both trying

407
00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:46,000
Speaker 2: to make similar moves in that space, and he was just,

408
00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:49,600
Speaker 2: oh my god, it's just super exciting. And that really

409
00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:53,280
Speaker 2: was a big moment. I really detail that thoroughly in

410
00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:56,760
Speaker 2: the book What year was this? And Italy seventy nine?

411
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Speaker 1: And you enjoyed it? Ah?

412
00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:00,399
Speaker 2: Man, I got it.

413
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:03,639
Speaker 1: I get mad when people all right, My experience of

414
00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:07,119
Speaker 1: Italy was kind of the opposite. Oh boy, it was

415
00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:11,480
Speaker 1: not enjoyable. But also like just being a broke we

416
00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:15,520
Speaker 1: were broke musicians living in Europe. It's not like, oh,

417
00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:18,800
Speaker 1: we go on tour in order for us, you got

418
00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:22,920
Speaker 1: to understand, like we were one of maybe eight black

419
00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:25,879
Speaker 1: bands that still had a record deal. Wow, like the

420
00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:29,000
Speaker 1: black band was a non existent thing. You know, hip

421
00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:32,040
Speaker 1: hop sort has washed everything away. So we had to

422
00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:35,400
Speaker 1: move to Europe. We like stole our budget money, got

423
00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:38,639
Speaker 1: an apartment in London and we would just spend a

424
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Speaker 1: month in each country. Let's go to France for a month,

425
00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:44,760
Speaker 1: Let's go to Italy and Italy. Man just every night, man,

426
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:49,280
Speaker 1: like they thought we were part of this African cartel.

427
00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:53,159
Speaker 1: We do our laundry and then their version of the

428
00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:56,800
Speaker 1: FBI come in, let me see your IDs. Like every night.

429
00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:00,080
Speaker 1: It was anything that's ever happened in like right a

430
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:02,080
Speaker 1: tech shows or problems with police.

431
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:04,359
Speaker 2: They would come and hassle you guys, only in Italy.

432
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Speaker 1: Like we finally, I think maybe in two thousand and five,

433
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:11,560
Speaker 1: had a good experience there, and so since then I've

434
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:14,879
Speaker 1: changed my mind about it. But to be broke in

435
00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:17,960
Speaker 1: the summer of Italy, I hated every moment of it.

436
00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:20,879
Speaker 1: So when people like talk all romantic about oh it

437
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:24,040
Speaker 1: was amazing, and we were just like depressed.

438
00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:28,119
Speaker 2: So yeah, we had a much better experience, I guess.

439
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:31,199
Speaker 2: I guess the context of what we were doing. We

440
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:35,200
Speaker 2: basically you know, but we're basically there for this exhibit.

441
00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:39,760
Speaker 2: And I had been reading about the Red Brigade. This

442
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:44,639
Speaker 2: was a militant Italian terror group, if you will, that

443
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:48,480
Speaker 2: were doing this thing that's people reference it now as

444
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,879
Speaker 2: you know, it was called kneecapping and they were shooting

445
00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:56,399
Speaker 2: officials in the knees. They would ride by and spread

446
00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,399
Speaker 2: these guys knees and then they would write graffiti to

447
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:04,560
Speaker 2: Red Brigade and they were like a radical thing against

448
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:05,399
Speaker 2: the it.

449
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,280
Speaker 1: It was like a political activist.

450
00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 2: Political terror group if you would have had people shook

451
00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:18,440
Speaker 2: to their core. So me seeing stories and photos, you know,

452
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:23,080
Speaker 2: any no idea, Yeah, trust me. People, when you hear

453
00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:26,720
Speaker 2: the term kneecapping, now that's where it originates. Wow, it

454
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:29,640
Speaker 2: was like kneecapping. It was a big thing. But because

455
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:32,520
Speaker 2: the graffiti connection, whenever you'd see a story about it,

456
00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 2: they would show the spray painting around. I thought, oh, well,

457
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:39,960
Speaker 2: graffiti and rome is a radical kind of thing. Maybe

458
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:42,680
Speaker 2: if they hear about what we're doing, these guys may

459
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:45,399
Speaker 2: want to show up and check our workout or something

460
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:49,479
Speaker 2: to that effect. When we had the exhibit at and

461
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:53,440
Speaker 2: I realized that this guy was a real Upper Cross

462
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 2: Italian and the people that came to our opening included

463
00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:02,320
Speaker 2: the chairman of FIAT, Johnny Agnelli, and contested this. I

464
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:04,320
Speaker 2: was like, boy, these are the kind of people that

465
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:10,240
Speaker 2: could be targets Revygae. There could be some kneecapt candidates here.

466
00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:14,560
Speaker 2: But but essentially we just went on me and Lee

467
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:17,680
Speaker 2: Man late at night, wandering the streets of Rome. Of course,

468
00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:21,120
Speaker 2: I had my boombox with me. I'm blasting early rap

469
00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:24,840
Speaker 2: tapes and we just would wander the streets of Rome.

470
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 2: Turn a corner there's, oh, there's remnants of a monument,

471
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:32,200
Speaker 2: and you walked through the city of Rome. So we

472
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 2: just had a delight. We climbed over a fence of

473
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:39,960
Speaker 2: the coliseum and sat on the last remaining steps in

474
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:44,000
Speaker 2: the coliseum, which was like two kids from New York City,

475
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:46,800
Speaker 2: just what are we doing here. At that time, there

476
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:50,160
Speaker 2: were feral cats, hundreds of them that ran all over

477
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:54,439
Speaker 2: the Colisseum in Rome. I ran into Fellini on the

478
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:59,440
Speaker 2: street Rico Fellini lived. We were staying in what's called

479
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:03,040
Speaker 2: the Penzi, which was like a super cheap joint, and

480
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:08,520
Speaker 2: our dealer lived in this area on Via Margutta, and

481
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:11,120
Speaker 2: Fellini lived up the street and so helped me. I'm

482
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 2: walking in the street and there's mister Fellini. I stopped.

483
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 2: I chatted with him briefly. He had the classic hat on.

484
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 2: And so is it like a pretty memorable What is

485
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:24,000
Speaker 2: it about you that has no fear?

486
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:29,919
Speaker 1: Because even in your book you are speaking of like

487
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:32,760
Speaker 1: I live in an era of New York where it

488
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:35,080
Speaker 1: has to be something worth it to get on the train.

489
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:38,440
Speaker 1: And now you know Manhattan, people are like, I don't

490
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:40,919
Speaker 1: do Brooklyn, I don't do Queens. I'll be like, yo,

491
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:45,919
Speaker 1: there's mad restaurants and queens. Let's go to Queens one night. Literally,

492
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 1: you are the embodiment of like when people ask me, like,

493
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:55,359
Speaker 1: what's your advice or whatever, it's very simple, show up,

494
00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:59,199
Speaker 1: see what happened. Show up, and you'll be shocked at

495
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:02,440
Speaker 1: the amount of time where people talk themselves out of

496
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:08,119
Speaker 1: their destiny because they've already painted their head. Nah, I

497
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:10,440
Speaker 1: don't want to do that. Something might happen, like because

498
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:12,880
Speaker 1: in my mind, I'm like, you're from real New York.

499
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 1: I'm in now, a pampered New York. And even then,

500
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:19,679
Speaker 1: you know, my first thought is who are all going to

501
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:20,040
Speaker 1: be there?

502
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:20,400
Speaker 2: Yeah?

503
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:24,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm good. No, but I'm saying, like you one,

504
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:29,439
Speaker 1: you're an army of one. So was there never not

505
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 1: a concern I should find out about this neighborhood I'm

506
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:35,840
Speaker 1: going to before.

507
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:40,479
Speaker 2: Come on and that. Well, regarding that moving through the city,

508
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 2: definitely you had to be away and caution. So my

509
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 2: street senses with kicking, like even though I was reading

510
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:53,240
Speaker 2: and had like an intelligent nerd side to me coach

511
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:56,400
Speaker 2: whim with the best of the worst in the hood,

512
00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 2: like my parents didn't take it their respect, just being real,

513
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:01,960
Speaker 2: like if you had to knuckle up, I was ready,

514
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 2: you know what I'm saying. You know, I got bullied,

515
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 2: like a lot of kids did. But at a certain

516
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 2: point kid bullying me, I just called turned off and

517
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:12,880
Speaker 2: knocked his head off, knocked his block. Everybody went crazy,

518
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:15,640
Speaker 2: and that at least would let people know like, yo,

519
00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:17,720
Speaker 2: you don't mess with him, you know what I'm saying.

520
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 2: So I was able to move with some kids that

521
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 2: was pretty wild.

522
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:25,080
Speaker 1: Did you have cousins or brothers or anything.

523
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 2: No, I was the only child for most of that time.

524
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 2: I have a younger sister, but you know, but.

525
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:34,680
Speaker 1: Nothing strikes to fear in someone, especially in the seventies, yeah, man,

526
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:36,360
Speaker 1: I'm gonna get my brother fuck you up.

527
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:38,880
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, nah that was real, But like I just

528
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 2: navigated it in a way. You learned. You got bullied,

529
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 2: you got picked on, but you learned the haul off

530
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:48,160
Speaker 2: and knock a kid upside his head and other kids realize, Yo,

531
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 2: you don't want to mess with him because he'll knuckle up.

532
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:54,000
Speaker 2: And so you get a certain level of respect at

533
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 2: that level, like on some jungle shit. And then you know,

534
00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,360
Speaker 2: we would travel I'm from the era like where we

535
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:02,720
Speaker 2: would hitch busses, we ride the back of butt We

536
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 2: did wild crazy shit, and my era I did. I

537
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 2: put my feet in those waters to a certain extent.

538
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:11,960
Speaker 2: So when we travel through certain areas of Brooklyn to

539
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:15,280
Speaker 2: go to swimming pools, and like in Red Hook or

540
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 2: wherever we was going, some neighborhoods you'd move through, cats

541
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 2: would step to you and be like, Yo, what's up?

542
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 2: You know? All right? Well fight so and so over

543
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 2: here you had to. Yeah, it'd be crazy. Wait what yeah,

544
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 2: like you come us out you got Sometimes you be

545
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 2: in a rough neighborhood, kids will step to you, be

546
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:38,080
Speaker 2: so so understanding what a rough neighborhood is. Sometime if

547
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:40,840
Speaker 2: you move in. You come to a corner, you look

548
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:43,960
Speaker 2: down a block, but yo, it's just just it looked

549
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:47,880
Speaker 2: wild over here. Or you wouldn't go through projects unless

550
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 2: you really knew somebody like a housing project, you'd navigate

551
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 2: around there. So your instincts would get developed to a

552
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 2: certain point where you can feel an energy when you

553
00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 2: come to a certain location. That's New York, especially in

554
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 2: the summer. Heads are gonna be out and they're gonna

555
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 2: be on a stoop. They're gonna be in the parks,

556
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 2: and you can feel that. So you would avoid certain

557
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 2: where would.

558
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:13,000
Speaker 1: You never go in nineteen seventies New York?

559
00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:16,720
Speaker 2: Like I said, if you knew it was crazy over here,

560
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 2: you had to move with a certain level of caution.

561
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:20,239
Speaker 2: You know. That's how it was.

562
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:23,360
Speaker 1: Is there a certain New York that you would I'm good.

563
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:26,960
Speaker 2: Certain parts of Brownsville it was roughs for green would

564
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:29,680
Speaker 2: be kind of rough. You know. If you in certain

565
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 2: areas in them hoods, dudes would step to you because

566
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:36,040
Speaker 2: you know, they'd be like, yo, what you're doing around here?

567
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:38,120
Speaker 2: Like what's up? Yo? These kids don't look you know,

568
00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:41,400
Speaker 2: they whatever what's happening. So you find a lot of

569
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:45,080
Speaker 2: early beefs with stem from just being in the wrong

570
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 2: part of town, or if you was dating a girl

571
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:50,800
Speaker 2: or the chick lived here, that could be problematic. You know,

572
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:53,280
Speaker 2: it's ignorant stuff when you grow up a little bit,

573
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:56,840
Speaker 2: but you know, you learn how to navigate, how to

574
00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:59,440
Speaker 2: make moves, where to go and where not to go.

575
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:02,760
Speaker 2: That was New York back then because you know, actually

576
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:07,360
Speaker 2: people didn't move travel too much out of their particular

577
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 2: safe zones, and if you did, you move with a

578
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 2: certain Listen. The stick up kid thing was real, and

579
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 2: in Brooklyn that was a major occupation, like a hustle,

580
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 2: like I've directed. One of the many videos I directed

581
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:23,240
Speaker 2: was for Gang Star or just to Get a Rep,

582
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:25,960
Speaker 2: which was all about that stick up kid. You know

583
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:28,800
Speaker 2: when rock Kim, one of his early record turns stick

584
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:31,880
Speaker 2: you know on the message turn stick up kid, look

585
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:34,680
Speaker 2: what yeah God sent up for. This was a thing.

586
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:37,040
Speaker 2: So you had to know how to move because they'd

587
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:39,360
Speaker 2: be waiting for you at certain places, like when kids

588
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 2: had their summer jobs and you get paid. Everybody got paid.

589
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:45,960
Speaker 2: On a certain day, your stick up kids would be out.

590
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 2: You'd be going to the Lancey Street, you know, to

591
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 2: get it in our fit stick up kids to be there. YO,

592
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:55,240
Speaker 2: give me all that run it, you know what I'm saying.

593
00:32:55,720 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 2: You know that mop energy completely encapsulated what it was

594
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 2: like when I hear that, you know, those certain records,

595
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:08,280
Speaker 2: certain rappers was able to really encapsulate what it was

596
00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 2: at those times, and you just had to learn how

597
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:12,680
Speaker 2: to navigate that or to deal with it, you know,

598
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:14,840
Speaker 2: and you have to knuckle up.

599
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:17,959
Speaker 1: What was your household record collection?

600
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:22,360
Speaker 2: Like, well, my parents had. That's an interesting story which

601
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:24,560
Speaker 2: I also talk about in the book. So my parents

602
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 2: had a bunch of album not a massive amount, but

603
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:30,520
Speaker 2: it was a lot of jazz records. And as a

604
00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:33,280
Speaker 2: young kid, I'm so sad about this. I destroyed a

605
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:36,400
Speaker 2: lot of the collection trying to stack the albums up

606
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:40,680
Speaker 2: in interesting ways, building things. Records would roll out of

607
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:44,200
Speaker 2: the covers and be you know, you know, so those

608
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 2: things I damaged a bunch of records. But so those

609
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 2: are the records that were in the house. Primarily my

610
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 2: mom would be into a lot of the contemporary stuff,

611
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 2: which would primarily be on forty fives. So you'd have

612
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 2: the classic scenario, which I've been explaining a lot as

613
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:03,800
Speaker 2: I've been on a book tour. Before the idea of

614
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 2: a DJ mixing, which was just before hip hop, way

615
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:09,720
Speaker 2: before hip hop. Just the idea of keeping the music

616
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 2: going was a huge innovation and a revelation because typically

617
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:17,360
Speaker 2: you put a stack of forty fives on the spindle,

618
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:20,720
Speaker 2: the arm would swing back, it would drop a record,

619
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 2: the armoud play the record, the shuffle the okay, the

620
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:28,879
Speaker 2: original shuffle. That's how parties were, that's how you listen

621
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:31,759
Speaker 2: to music. That's how music was enjoyed in the home.

622
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:35,480
Speaker 2: And so, yeah, so my mom had some of the

623
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:39,799
Speaker 2: contemporary stuff, and she would give me fifteen twenty cent

624
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:42,400
Speaker 2: a quarter to show her the latest dances, you know,

625
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:43,720
Speaker 2: whatever the come.

626
00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:44,319
Speaker 1: On, what are you.

627
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:51,440
Speaker 2: You know? Yeah, do the wobble, do the whatever, the

628
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:52,719
Speaker 2: jerk whatever, you know.

629
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 1: So I would use the entertainment. Yeah.

630
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:58,440
Speaker 2: But so basically my mom was into that. And one

631
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:01,640
Speaker 2: of the earliest records that I remember that I went

632
00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:04,480
Speaker 2: because I damaged your copy my mother owned was a

633
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 2: record called The Name Game by Shirley Ellis Yes, which

634
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:12,840
Speaker 2: is sort of to me like an early rap record,

635
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:15,960
Speaker 2: if you will, because she's pretty much just talking with

636
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 2: along with.

637
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:19,239
Speaker 1: Right, you know, you are right. I never thought of that.

638
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:21,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, So when later when youre hip hop and and

639
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,000
Speaker 2: so that I remember I was playing with a ball

640
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:27,000
Speaker 2: that bounced up on the turntable scratched the record, and

641
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 2: a little record store around the corner from us right

642
00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:33,200
Speaker 2: then on Sumner Avenue which is now Marcus Garvey, a

643
00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:35,560
Speaker 2: little small record store. I went and brought a copy,

644
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:37,080
Speaker 2: and that was actually turned out to be the first

645
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:40,120
Speaker 2: record I would podcast. But as a young adult or

646
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:43,279
Speaker 2: a teenager, growing into my adult years, I always was

647
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 2: a boombox guy with a double cassette.

648
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:51,280
Speaker 1: When you mentioned that, I totally forgot about Corniac boom Kannac.

649
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 1: I forget the name of the company, but like that

650
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:57,719
Speaker 1: boombox culture. Can you so can you explain because it's

651
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:01,439
Speaker 1: hard for me to convey the people how we took

652
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 1: in music right now, of course, my entire record collection

653
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:05,960
Speaker 1: can be on the phone name here.

654
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:08,759
Speaker 2: It's crazy where technology has gotten us. But I was

655
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:12,000
Speaker 2: a cassette guy primarily because you know, you can make

656
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 2: a copy, and if you had somebody had something special,

657
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 2: you can burn and run a copy on your double cassette.

658
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:22,200
Speaker 2: So that's really was instrumental and how hip hop really

659
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:26,480
Speaker 2: spread around the city. It was cassettes being handed and

660
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:30,239
Speaker 2: being dubbed and copied whatever. But I was always a

661
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:33,600
Speaker 2: boombox guy for quite a while. In fact, one of

662
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:37,839
Speaker 2: the last boomboxes I had I donated to the Smithsonian.

663
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:41,880
Speaker 2: It literally is on exhibit, not the Afro Smithsonian. It

664
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:44,799
Speaker 2: was donated for that purpose, but they actually because it

665
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:47,279
Speaker 2: was way before they finished the building, so it's in

666
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 2: the American smith If you google fab five Freddy's Boombox Smithsonian,

667
00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:54,239
Speaker 2: you'll see my boom box. But some guys, now I

668
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:56,879
Speaker 2: don't remember the name, that have a Kickstarter going on

669
00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:01,840
Speaker 2: with the classic massive Boom double cassette. But it's also

670
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:07,799
Speaker 2: got bluetooth CD USB. It has that old school boombox.

671
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:10,600
Speaker 1: Look, Chapelle hooked me up one of those Chappelle knows

672
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:12,320
Speaker 1: those guys, and that was my Christmas.

673
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:15,279
Speaker 2: I have that thing. Well it's I just ordered one.

674
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:17,960
Speaker 2: So I'm patiently waiting because I still got a lot

675
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:20,560
Speaker 2: of cassettes and stuff. A lot of my stuff went

676
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:24,120
Speaker 2: to the Schomberg and Harlem a lot of my stuff,

677
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:26,520
Speaker 2: but I still have so Boom. But I still have

678
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:29,680
Speaker 2: a lot of cassettes that I need to dive into.

679
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 1: So back then, before the Giuliani era of anti noise.

680
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:37,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, like it was just anti everything. It was well

681
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 2: yeah you down.

682
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:44,439
Speaker 1: But like it was just you could freely just walk

683
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:46,840
Speaker 1: around and blast your shit onto you listen.

684
00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:49,680
Speaker 2: That was that was That was what it was man,

685
00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:52,680
Speaker 2: you know. And this the boom boxes got bigger, better

686
00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:55,760
Speaker 2: and sounded better have to put up. I remember cruiser

687
00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:58,160
Speaker 2: cats that wanted to really walk around and listen to

688
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:01,200
Speaker 2: some music, you know, you know like a The Ladies whatever.

689
00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:04,040
Speaker 2: You had to cast the crew with chipping to put

690
00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:05,799
Speaker 2: the batteries in because you had to put them D

691
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:10,040
Speaker 2: sized batteries in and them big boxes was they was heavy,

692
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:12,919
Speaker 2: But that was the move back then. Like I can

693
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 2: even remember before the cassettes. I remember casting had eight track.

694
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 2: There was quartable eight track boomboxes. I didn't have that,

695
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:24,239
Speaker 2: but I remember seeing them is eight track thing, which

696
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:26,359
Speaker 2: was weird, but that was the move back then.

697
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 1: And then what would you rock like what was like

698
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:32,759
Speaker 1: your number one tester, like you just curate tapes the

699
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:35,759
Speaker 1: night before and then make your soundtrack worse well, for me,

700
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:39,319
Speaker 1: when it really got going good, you would have if

701
00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:44,600
Speaker 1: man like recording Red Alert Show even before Red Alert

702
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:46,840
Speaker 1: and Magic was on mainstream stations.

703
00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 2: There was a station called WHBI, which was sort of no.

704
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:55,200
Speaker 2: WHBI was a New York City station. It was a

705
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 2: community connection where you could pay if you got a

706
00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:03,080
Speaker 2: good slot, you'd pay, like to get on fifty sixty dollars,

707
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:06,239
Speaker 2: which is what it costed. You pay them, and you

708
00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:10,040
Speaker 2: could broadcast. So the Supreme Team was the ones that

709
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:13,759
Speaker 2: was playing early breakbeats and early rap records, and you

710
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:16,080
Speaker 2: could go on YouTube and hear examples of what they

711
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:20,239
Speaker 2: would do. I'll have my fresh tape ready to record,

712
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 2: you know when the Supreme Team came. That's how you

713
00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:24,960
Speaker 2: got access to the music they was playing.

714
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:26,680
Speaker 1: The real have some of those tapes. So you're telling

715
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:29,920
Speaker 1: me that because in my mind, I'm like, wow, like

716
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:34,040
Speaker 1: radio programmers, I'm thinking like Frankie Crocker is like paving

717
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:36,800
Speaker 1: away for these DJs to get on. I didn't realize

718
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:40,839
Speaker 1: that that's community radio, community radio. So the character that

719
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:43,680
Speaker 1: Sam Jackson played and do the Right Thing, hm, that

720
00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 1: was an actual thing where it's like a community radio station.

721
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:50,879
Speaker 2: For Yes, they had them. They had Yes, that's Sam

722
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:56,359
Speaker 2: Jackson and do the Right Thing, Senior Loved Senior Love Daddy. Yes,

723
00:39:56,520 --> 00:39:58,480
Speaker 2: that was that would go on but also on the

724
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:02,280
Speaker 2: weekends on b Less and Kiss they would have master

725
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:05,480
Speaker 2: mixed shows where they would just let the music go

726
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:10,319
Speaker 2: for long stretches uninterrupted. They would do a commercial break

727
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:12,640
Speaker 2: or two. If you would slick with it, you would

728
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:15,879
Speaker 2: pause and then you'd come back in, so you'd cut

729
00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:18,440
Speaker 2: out all the talk and the gibberish. But that was

730
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:22,920
Speaker 2: the key way you got hot music that wasn't in

731
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:27,759
Speaker 2: the regular playlist or the regular top whatever. However, they

732
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:30,040
Speaker 2: broke it down, So that was it for me.

733
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:45,840
Speaker 1: Can you name me three live shows that you witnessed

734
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:51,080
Speaker 1: in your early fourteen years? In your life, how often

735
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:52,640
Speaker 1: did you go to contract shows?

736
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:55,520
Speaker 2: Oh? Boy, not too often. But the first time I

737
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:58,000
Speaker 2: go to a concert in the seventies on my own,

738
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:01,680
Speaker 2: it would slid in the family stuff. Okay. I loved

739
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:05,040
Speaker 2: your documentary by the Way Back Way, and that was

740
00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:08,239
Speaker 2: great because taught me a lot about Slider. I didn't know.

741
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:10,319
Speaker 2: I didn't realize he was on the radio and had

742
00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:14,640
Speaker 2: been super impactful in that category, which explained a lot.

743
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:18,960
Speaker 2: Going to see him was huge. Not much long after

744
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:21,879
Speaker 2: going to see Parliament Funk of Delic when they would

745
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:25,040
Speaker 2: come to the garden, those were huge events. I had tickets.

746
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:28,480
Speaker 2: I'm way up in the nosebleeds, but I loved it.

747
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:33,360
Speaker 2: It was incredible. So seeing Sliding family Stone, you know,

748
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:37,600
Speaker 2: the Parliament, Funk of Deelic, those were huge, memorable shows.

749
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:42,040
Speaker 2: I remember there was a summer concert series in Central

750
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:45,480
Speaker 2: Park that I went to. I was in Central Park

751
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:49,040
Speaker 2: when Dinass I was there for that. I was there

752
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:51,560
Speaker 2: both days. So the first one went crazy. Look, I'm

753
00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:54,200
Speaker 2: from Brooklyn. It was Brooklyn that went bananas that day.

754
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:57,480
Speaker 2: Kind of embarrassing, but tore that shit up. Then it

755
00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:01,840
Speaker 2: rained and then they read. Then they did some miraculous

756
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:04,640
Speaker 2: let's do it the next day, and I was back

757
00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:06,600
Speaker 2: there again for that. I was that.

758
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:09,160
Speaker 1: I wanted to go because I swore Michael Jackson was

759
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:09,759
Speaker 1: going to show up.

760
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:14,400
Speaker 2: You can't go. That was epics. So I've seen some

761
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:17,560
Speaker 2: good shows, man, definitely a few, a few of them.

762
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:24,640
Speaker 1: So of all of the stories that you've well, I

763
00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:27,400
Speaker 1: guess I could say great stories of the adults in

764
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:31,040
Speaker 1: your life. And you talk about your your father's inner circle. Yeah,

765
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:35,240
Speaker 1: what is the one that impacted you the most because

766
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:38,600
Speaker 1: you carry a lot of the history. Well, first of all,

767
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:42,799
Speaker 1: I was so mind blown. You go into the craziest

768
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:51,439
Speaker 1: detail of your father's witnessing Malcolm X's assassination, And are

769
00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:54,640
Speaker 1: you the only one that has a cassette recording of

770
00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:55,400
Speaker 1: that actual.

771
00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:59,400
Speaker 2: Assass real to real that went that real to real tape.

772
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:03,360
Speaker 2: So one of my dad's closest friends was this gentleman

773
00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:07,240
Speaker 2: actually a drummer, but he kind of retired from drummer

774
00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:10,080
Speaker 2: became a full time activist. Name was Willie Jones. He

775
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:14,920
Speaker 2: recorded on a felonious monk date Friday to thirteenth, most famously,

776
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:19,279
Speaker 2: and then he became like a community activist and he

777
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:21,920
Speaker 2: got tight with Malcolm to the extent where he had

778
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:25,040
Speaker 2: a portable reel to reel that would he would go

779
00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:28,719
Speaker 2: to all of Malcolm's New York rallies. He would have

780
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:33,520
Speaker 2: his recorder set up he would record. So that fateful day,

781
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:37,399
Speaker 2: my dad, Willie and another one of their friends were

782
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 2: at the Autobomb ballroom. WILLI had his mic on the

783
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:45,720
Speaker 2: pedestal and when the shots open up, he recorded everything.

784
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:49,279
Speaker 2: So we heard that it was a gentleman I can't

785
00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:52,319
Speaker 2: remember his name that within the last ten years or

786
00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:56,239
Speaker 2: so wrote a Malcolm X bio if you will, or

787
00:43:56,440 --> 00:44:00,480
Speaker 2: a book about Malcolm and the way he recounts that incident.

788
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:03,120
Speaker 2: I'm sure he had access to the tape because that

789
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:07,840
Speaker 2: tape was my dad. Yeah. Well, they made copies for

790
00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:10,480
Speaker 2: their friends and so it was kind of circulated. But

791
00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:14,040
Speaker 2: the copy I have is one of the original dupes,

792
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:16,360
Speaker 2: if you will, went with my stuff to the shamreg

793
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:19,160
Speaker 2: I don't know if they ever did the whole baked

794
00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:21,719
Speaker 2: the tape to make sure they preserved everything in the

795
00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:25,040
Speaker 2: correct way, but yeah, you know, my dad and then

796
00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:28,319
Speaker 2: would recount that numerous times and it'd be.

797
00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:30,239
Speaker 1: Chilling, like how old were you at the time. It's

798
00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:31,160
Speaker 1: sixty five, so.

799
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:33,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I'm like, I don't remember it because I'm

800
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:37,200
Speaker 2: real little, but they would tell the story. I would

801
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:39,640
Speaker 2: hear the tape they would put on the tape. They

802
00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:45,000
Speaker 2: had numerous tapes of Malcolm's speeches that really had recorded,

803
00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 2: and so they were like really following in fact, one

804
00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:53,800
Speaker 2: of the speeches Malcolm had gave prior he spoke. But

805
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:55,640
Speaker 2: because you know, they had tried to fire bomb his

806
00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:59,640
Speaker 2: house and queens, there's the famous image of Malcolm holding

807
00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:03,040
Speaker 2: the peeking out of the window. Because that shot was

808
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:07,160
Speaker 2: about him protecting his family. He knew he was being targeted.

809
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:10,399
Speaker 2: There was a speech where my dad and them would

810
00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:13,279
Speaker 2: play a recording where he would mention something to the

811
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:16,560
Speaker 2: effect that I know I might not be here, something

812
00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:19,279
Speaker 2: kind of he knew they were on him, but he

813
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:22,520
Speaker 2: still was so courageous. He kept going, he kept speaking.

814
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:24,880
Speaker 2: And so that faithful day when that happened, and my

815
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:27,160
Speaker 2: dad and them would tell that story. I heard it

816
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:29,960
Speaker 2: dozens of times over the years, and then it was

817
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:33,680
Speaker 2: a famous part, like when they ran up on stage

818
00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:36,880
Speaker 2: and then they ran backstage, and then Willie was peeping

819
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:39,319
Speaker 2: through a hole. My dad said, that's likely a bullet hole.

820
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:43,120
Speaker 2: Will he stepped back, and it was just craziness. In

821
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:46,720
Speaker 2: the recent Netflix documentary Who Killed Malcolm X, I'm looking,

822
00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:49,799
Speaker 2: I did actually not in that dock, but I did

823
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:54,360
Speaker 2: find literally I think it's the day before. I did

824
00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:59,280
Speaker 2: find footage of Malcolm outside of the Hotel Teresa building,

825
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:02,919
Speaker 2: Willie Jones right behind him. What you could see. Yeah,

826
00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:06,080
Speaker 2: I've got the photo with the tape deck on his shoulder.

827
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:10,759
Speaker 2: But just hearing about that relentlessly, it was just such

828
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:13,400
Speaker 2: a sad And I also want to point out, like

829
00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:17,640
Speaker 2: it's Malcolm. At that time, in most mainstream press, he

830
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:21,960
Speaker 2: was dragged. I mean, he was not as universally accepted

831
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:25,240
Speaker 2: and acknowledge as he is now among black folks as well,

832
00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:28,640
Speaker 2: because he came off real edgy at the time, you

833
00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:32,600
Speaker 2: know what I mean by the conservative Yeah, so really,

834
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:35,839
Speaker 2: you know, really super duper cautious about how to move.

835
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:38,160
Speaker 2: You know, black folks weren't even comfortable being black. It

836
00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 2: was still negroing and kind of colored at that time

837
00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:44,720
Speaker 2: when I'm really young. But Malcolm definitely has been proven

838
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:46,919
Speaker 2: to be right on so many topics and so many

839
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:49,520
Speaker 2: categories of things that he focused on and things that

840
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:51,680
Speaker 2: he was about in terms of what he said. You know,

841
00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:55,319
Speaker 2: we hear those things echoing now in our timelines if

842
00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:58,200
Speaker 2: your algorithm is in the right space and place. Yes,

843
00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:02,000
Speaker 2: So those things were just echo throughout my childhood among

844
00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:03,800
Speaker 2: my dad and his friends.

845
00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:08,360
Speaker 1: You mentioned Willie playing for Felonious. You gotta tell me

846
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:12,919
Speaker 1: the story. What made you want to cold call Felonious monk? Yeah?

847
00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:17,160
Speaker 2: I did, oh man. You know, well, it starts with

848
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:20,799
Speaker 2: I guess being around my dad and his friends. They'd

849
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:25,480
Speaker 2: be playing jazz often recounting stories and the fact that

850
00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:29,680
Speaker 2: they would know who these musicians were just from hearing

851
00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:32,640
Speaker 2: them play was fascinating to me. How do you know

852
00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:37,239
Speaker 2: that's Sonny Rollins And how do you know that's you know,

853
00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:41,200
Speaker 2: Mary Lou Williams or who these musicians are was fascinating

854
00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:44,640
Speaker 2: to me just without hearing a voice. And then later

855
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:49,560
Speaker 2: the first musician that I was able to spot was

856
00:47:49,719 --> 00:47:56,800
Speaker 2: Monk and it's the very powerful, seemingly simple way he plays,

857
00:47:57,440 --> 00:48:00,960
Speaker 2: but at the same time it was very stink to

858
00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:03,879
Speaker 2: my ear, and I was like, I remember the first time,

859
00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:06,120
Speaker 2: was like, that's Monk, and they would be like, yeah,

860
00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:08,680
Speaker 2: that's Monk. So I was like, man, you.

861
00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:11,800
Speaker 1: Never have musical aspirations because you're around all this jazz.

862
00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:12,319
Speaker 1: I was.

863
00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:14,120
Speaker 2: I thought I wanted to be a drummer as a kid.

864
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:18,920
Speaker 2: Max gave me like a little really unique practice kit

865
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:23,000
Speaker 2: that opened up and had these pads that swung out

866
00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:27,560
Speaker 2: of a briefcase and would sort of replicate what the different. Yeah,

867
00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:29,799
Speaker 2: some somebody in Europe had given it to him. He

868
00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:32,160
Speaker 2: gave it to me. That didn't work out. I didn't

869
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:33,799
Speaker 2: I didn't do whatever is it?

870
00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:39,319
Speaker 1: I wish I knew, Come on, friend, stop playing, just

871
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:40,680
Speaker 1: say that to a master drummer.

872
00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:43,719
Speaker 2: But that was single digit. Yeah, that didn't work out.

873
00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:46,839
Speaker 1: So, so you you cold called him?

874
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:49,240
Speaker 2: And yeah, so I'm looking through my dad's phone book.

875
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:51,040
Speaker 1: What made you want to call him?

876
00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:55,040
Speaker 2: Because I liked the music and I was I developed

877
00:48:55,040 --> 00:48:57,960
Speaker 2: this thing about Monk. I was the first musician who

878
00:48:58,120 --> 00:49:02,040
Speaker 2: sound I could distinguish on the radio when my dad

879
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:03,920
Speaker 2: like the way my dad and his friends, that's so

880
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:06,920
Speaker 2: and so, Oh that's mngus, that's the how do you guys,

881
00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:10,400
Speaker 2: how do you do that? So literally, Monk's sound became

882
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:13,439
Speaker 2: super distinctive to me. So it became like this Monk.

883
00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:15,839
Speaker 2: I like Monk. I like Monk, And I'm flipping through

884
00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:18,080
Speaker 2: my dad's phone book and there's Monk's name in the

885
00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:20,440
Speaker 2: loneus Monk. So I said, man, let me call the number.

886
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:24,080
Speaker 2: And I wanted to talk to Monk, but his wife

887
00:49:24,120 --> 00:49:27,520
Speaker 2: answered to phone Nelly and I just had this incredible

888
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:32,399
Speaker 2: conversation with Nelly. Thinking back as an adult, she hears

889
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:34,200
Speaker 2: the voice of a young kid on the phone. She

890
00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:37,640
Speaker 2: was like, oh, how sweet is this? But what really

891
00:49:37,719 --> 00:49:41,280
Speaker 2: stayed with me is the fact that I was talking

892
00:49:41,360 --> 00:49:43,960
Speaker 2: about jazz and she said, well, Freddy, jazz is like

893
00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:48,360
Speaker 2: a conversation which starts off with a topic being stated

894
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:54,800
Speaker 2: and the other musicians are giving their interpretation or interpolation

895
00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:59,879
Speaker 2: of that topic. And that helped me understand so much

896
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:04,120
Speaker 2: because you know, particularly in bebop jazz, they state this

897
00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:07,920
Speaker 2: statement in the beginning and then the other cats do

898
00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:12,360
Speaker 2: their response and interpretation of that, and it was like wow,

899
00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:15,959
Speaker 2: and it helped me understand. I would later actually meet

900
00:50:16,120 --> 00:50:21,759
Speaker 2: Nelly in the late nineties early two thousands, and I

901
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:24,719
Speaker 2: reminded her about the call, and then I have been

902
00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:27,640
Speaker 2: fascinated about the baroness who my dad and his friends

903
00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:31,000
Speaker 2: would also talk about. This was a roth child heiress,

904
00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:35,560
Speaker 2: a patron of jazz. She would be around, Yeah, she

905
00:50:35,600 --> 00:50:40,400
Speaker 2: would help many musicians. She had incredible taste. They respected

906
00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:45,240
Speaker 2: her so heavily because she could hear the way they heard.

907
00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:48,879
Speaker 2: Like if some cats were jamming, she'd be like, Oh,

908
00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:52,319
Speaker 2: that piano player, he's a motherfucker, and the cats would

909
00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:54,720
Speaker 2: be like, he's the one.

910
00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:57,200
Speaker 1: So every area of our music has that person.

911
00:50:57,760 --> 00:51:01,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I was fascinating because my dad this is

912
00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:04,120
Speaker 2: one of the stories that would come up often. She'd

913
00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:07,719
Speaker 2: have a Rose Royce parked outside until five six in

914
00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:11,960
Speaker 2: the morning. So she was a patron to Monk loved

915
00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:15,200
Speaker 2: Monk helped the family in bad times when these guys

916
00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:18,320
Speaker 2: weren't able to eat. She was close with our Blakey

917
00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:22,000
Speaker 2: the Drummer. But Charlie Parker literally dies in her hotel

918
00:51:22,080 --> 00:51:24,960
Speaker 2: suite at the Stanhope Hotel. She was helping out. She

919
00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:29,400
Speaker 2: would help cats out in a true patronly way, and

920
00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:32,719
Speaker 2: so she was revered. There were numerous songs named after her.

921
00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:36,200
Speaker 2: One of Monk's tunes after I think it's called Crepsicle

922
00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:39,759
Speaker 2: for Nelly if you check out Nellie the Rothschild. So

923
00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:42,040
Speaker 2: that was a story that I'd hear a lot about.

924
00:51:42,760 --> 00:51:45,600
Speaker 2: And then later when i'd get on the downtown scene

925
00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:50,520
Speaker 2: and I'd meet different women that were just supportive and

926
00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:54,520
Speaker 2: instinctive and understood it and got it, I'd say, you know,

927
00:51:54,640 --> 00:52:00,200
Speaker 2: you might be something like this woman. I'd hear Nelly, and.

928
00:52:00,040 --> 00:52:04,640
Speaker 1: She right about Monk having distinctive style like my dad

929
00:52:04,680 --> 00:52:08,200
Speaker 1: and I often didn't see eye to eye on a

930
00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:10,840
Speaker 1: lot of hip hop. Huh. But for some reason, the

931
00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:14,799
Speaker 1: last time we had a bonding, he recognized like, this

932
00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:16,800
Speaker 1: is the only time where he put me onto something.

933
00:52:17,280 --> 00:52:21,040
Speaker 1: In November, when Wu Tang's thirty six Chambers came out

934
00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:24,360
Speaker 1: the same day as Midnight Marauders and I'm listening to that.

935
00:52:24,440 --> 00:52:27,120
Speaker 1: I'm about to go to New York to get my

936
00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:30,640
Speaker 1: record deal, and I'm playing Wu Tang shame on the

937
00:52:30,680 --> 00:52:33,359
Speaker 1: nigga was on. He was like, that's the loneiest monk.

938
00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:36,000
Speaker 1: And then Clanning the funk came on. He's like, that's

939
00:52:36,040 --> 00:52:37,759
Speaker 1: the loneiest monk, and he was like, are these kids

940
00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:40,799
Speaker 1: at the loneiest monk or whatever? But and at first

941
00:52:40,840 --> 00:52:43,920
Speaker 1: I was like, you don't know. Later I was like, oh,

942
00:52:44,080 --> 00:52:45,839
Speaker 1: Dad was right, that is the loneiest monk.

943
00:52:46,040 --> 00:52:47,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, all right.

944
00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:50,560
Speaker 1: So you know, unfortunately, I guess I'm part of the

945
00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:55,600
Speaker 1: well not intentionally gentrification part of New York. Literally my

946
00:52:55,640 --> 00:53:01,000
Speaker 1: first day in New York was like every real news complaint,

947
00:53:01,040 --> 00:53:04,000
Speaker 1: like the last day. It was December of ninety three,

948
00:53:04,239 --> 00:53:06,400
Speaker 1: and this is literally the day in which I guess

949
00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:09,839
Speaker 1: forty second Street was open for business as far as

950
00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:14,239
Speaker 1: the disnification of it all. So me arriving in New

951
00:53:14,320 --> 00:53:18,440
Speaker 1: York literally all week was just anger and disdaining in

952
00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:21,120
Speaker 1: the air. Like I'm staying in the Paramount on forty

953
00:53:21,120 --> 00:53:24,040
Speaker 1: sixth Streets, so I'm in like midtown Manhattan, but all

954
00:53:24,080 --> 00:53:26,919
Speaker 1: I hear is that people are bitching because like, man,

955
00:53:26,960 --> 00:53:29,520
Speaker 1: forty second Street ain't the same. No more is Disney

956
00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:32,799
Speaker 1: and Starbucks is here. Like this is when I'm first

957
00:53:32,840 --> 00:53:36,760
Speaker 1: starting to hear complaints of the old. But I think

958
00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:41,040
Speaker 1: that is a cycle. So like I always hear the

959
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:44,319
Speaker 1: before your time, this is what New York was. And

960
00:53:44,520 --> 00:53:47,360
Speaker 1: I've heard, you know, I've heard stories of people in

961
00:53:47,360 --> 00:53:50,400
Speaker 1: the fifties say that, No, the real jazz renaissance was

962
00:53:50,840 --> 00:53:53,640
Speaker 1: in the early late thirties and early forties, and people

963
00:53:53,640 --> 00:53:57,240
Speaker 1: in the seventies be like, man, sixties was the shit. Yeah,

964
00:53:57,280 --> 00:54:00,960
Speaker 1: So for you becoming a teenage, you're in the seventies,

965
00:54:01,520 --> 00:54:05,840
Speaker 1: what was the shift that you first noticed happening in

966
00:54:05,880 --> 00:54:10,080
Speaker 1: New York? Because you paint a pretty fair I'm not

967
00:54:10,120 --> 00:54:14,040
Speaker 1: going to say rosy or rose colored glasses, but I

968
00:54:14,160 --> 00:54:17,600
Speaker 1: know of eras where the projects weren't seen as a

969
00:54:17,640 --> 00:54:20,200
Speaker 1: mark of shame, or you wanted to visit your aunt

970
00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:22,120
Speaker 1: uncle Nat and oh, I'm gonna go to the projects.

971
00:54:22,200 --> 00:54:24,759
Speaker 1: But in the eighties you wouldn't dare do that. So

972
00:54:25,040 --> 00:54:30,520
Speaker 1: what happened in the seventies that you observed that didn't

973
00:54:30,520 --> 00:54:34,520
Speaker 1: cross over, Like what things that were noticeable in the

974
00:54:34,520 --> 00:54:36,800
Speaker 1: sixties that you didn't see come the seventies.

975
00:54:37,160 --> 00:54:39,000
Speaker 2: Wait a minute, let me make sure I got this right.

976
00:54:39,160 --> 00:54:42,560
Speaker 1: In terms of well, just in terms of culture, your

977
00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:46,279
Speaker 1: observation of New York well, h and I know it

978
00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:48,359
Speaker 1: might be hard for you to take an observation if

979
00:54:48,360 --> 00:54:51,800
Speaker 1: you're inside it. Yeah, were the seventies all that different

980
00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:52,160
Speaker 1: for you?

981
00:54:53,160 --> 00:54:58,600
Speaker 2: I can remember the beginnings of not even so much

982
00:54:58,680 --> 00:55:01,319
Speaker 2: bedsty because I guess when I was really young, I

983
00:55:01,320 --> 00:55:05,080
Speaker 2: went to a tutor in downtown Brooklyn what would be

984
00:55:05,080 --> 00:55:10,319
Speaker 2: considered the Fort Green area when the whole renovating of

985
00:55:10,440 --> 00:55:18,960
Speaker 2: brownstones happened. That created this awareness of the quality of

986
00:55:19,040 --> 00:55:22,560
Speaker 2: these homes when people began to start renovating them, and

987
00:55:22,760 --> 00:55:27,520
Speaker 2: I guess that would set the table for gentrification down

988
00:55:27,560 --> 00:55:28,440
Speaker 2: the line, if.

989
00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:30,480
Speaker 1: You will sell your house for a million dollars.

990
00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:34,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, well that didn't, like I said, some parts of

991
00:55:34,239 --> 00:55:36,920
Speaker 2: Fort Green. And then even further I remember like Brooklyn

992
00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:40,040
Speaker 2: Heights because as a young kid, I was really curious

993
00:55:40,040 --> 00:55:44,440
Speaker 2: about architecture. I would be looking at different periodicals and

994
00:55:44,520 --> 00:55:48,719
Speaker 2: reading things that related to buildings, and I became aware that,

995
00:55:49,160 --> 00:55:52,560
Speaker 2: you know, and then I remember this like brownstone renovation

996
00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:57,320
Speaker 2: thing happening back then and that hit my radar. People

997
00:55:57,680 --> 00:56:04,520
Speaker 2: stripping the plaster and having exposed brick and refinishing the wood,

998
00:56:05,080 --> 00:56:07,560
Speaker 2: and our the wood in our house was all painted.

999
00:56:07,600 --> 00:56:09,720
Speaker 2: Then when I was like, wait a minute, our house

1000
00:56:09,760 --> 00:56:11,719
Speaker 2: had wood, liked it? Why did they paint it? Like

1001
00:56:11,800 --> 00:56:14,719
Speaker 2: I like, you know, it became aware of what it

1002
00:56:14,800 --> 00:56:17,920
Speaker 2: had been. Having grown up in a brownstone in Bedsty,

1003
00:56:18,680 --> 00:56:22,000
Speaker 2: that was somewhat of an awareness that things were changing.

1004
00:56:22,040 --> 00:56:25,160
Speaker 2: And then when you look down the line as the

1005
00:56:25,200 --> 00:56:28,920
Speaker 2: prices went way up through the roof in different areas

1006
00:56:29,400 --> 00:56:32,240
Speaker 2: that now is going on in Bedsty. You know, luckily

1007
00:56:32,280 --> 00:56:35,680
Speaker 2: we still own the house. You still own your Yeah,

1008
00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:37,600
Speaker 2: me and my sister, but she lives in it with

1009
00:56:37,680 --> 00:56:40,279
Speaker 2: her family in bed Style, So that's a blessing. I mean,

1010
00:56:40,280 --> 00:56:44,360
Speaker 2: that's really what I learned watching gentrification happen in various

1011
00:56:45,400 --> 00:56:48,400
Speaker 2: areas in New York City, particularly watching that happen in

1012
00:56:48,400 --> 00:56:50,399
Speaker 2: the Lower East Side where I lived when I made

1013
00:56:50,480 --> 00:56:54,440
Speaker 2: my move into Manhattan to really get things moving and grooving.

1014
00:56:56,200 --> 00:56:59,960
Speaker 2: That became like a big kind of line in the sands,

1015
00:57:00,040 --> 00:57:03,160
Speaker 2: so to speak. That activists were like, here's what they

1016
00:57:03,200 --> 00:57:05,960
Speaker 2: want to do, here's what they're coming and the rents

1017
00:57:05,960 --> 00:57:08,160
Speaker 2: are going to be this literally the block I lived

1018
00:57:08,160 --> 00:57:10,640
Speaker 2: on that I talk about a lot in my memoir

1019
00:57:10,840 --> 00:57:14,400
Speaker 2: Ludlow Street. There's high rises that have been recently built

1020
00:57:14,600 --> 00:57:19,760
Speaker 2: on Ludlow Street amidst tenements built for the poorest immigrant

1021
00:57:20,280 --> 00:57:22,880
Speaker 2: New Yorkers. So a lot of the stuff that they

1022
00:57:23,000 --> 00:57:25,040
Speaker 2: would talk about back then that I thought was so

1023
00:57:25,240 --> 00:57:31,320
Speaker 2: extreme and exaggerated has come to fruition. So but seeing

1024
00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:38,600
Speaker 2: that the way it transpired and following artists initially, who

1025
00:57:38,640 --> 00:57:41,920
Speaker 2: are the people that would go into these areas and

1026
00:57:42,320 --> 00:57:47,040
Speaker 2: set up shop what literally first happened in Soho Tribeca,

1027
00:57:47,280 --> 00:57:51,720
Speaker 2: Lower east Side. I was connected like to those pioneers,

1028
00:57:51,720 --> 00:57:54,000
Speaker 2: if you will, like particularly in the Lower east Side.

1029
00:57:54,560 --> 00:57:58,080
Speaker 2: And then when it got crazy based on the energy

1030
00:57:58,120 --> 00:58:01,960
Speaker 2: that the creative community create, like we made it cool,

1031
00:58:02,360 --> 00:58:06,280
Speaker 2: we made it sexy, we made it interesting. Then the

1032
00:58:06,320 --> 00:58:08,840
Speaker 2: developers come in and buy it all up. And unless

1033
00:58:08,880 --> 00:58:12,040
Speaker 2: you own something, you really don't benefit. You gotta go

1034
00:58:12,760 --> 00:58:14,960
Speaker 2: once that lease is up. Is it a fight to

1035
00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:18,280
Speaker 2: the finish to hang on to your history. And I mean,

1036
00:58:18,320 --> 00:58:20,960
Speaker 2: if you own something, it's the only way you can

1037
00:58:21,240 --> 00:58:23,440
Speaker 2: kind of survive it. And then you kind of somewhat

1038
00:58:23,480 --> 00:58:26,040
Speaker 2: benefit because the value of your property goes up. But

1039
00:58:26,320 --> 00:58:29,959
Speaker 2: watching that happen, particularly in the Lower East Side, when

1040
00:58:30,440 --> 00:58:35,240
Speaker 2: they were selling drugs super duper, ultra flagrantly. I'm talking

1041
00:58:35,280 --> 00:58:38,800
Speaker 2: heroin and cocaine in the streets broad daylight, like it

1042
00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:43,200
Speaker 2: was a farmer's market. In certain areas in Alphabst City,

1043
00:58:43,320 --> 00:58:46,840
Speaker 2: like Avenue C Avenue D, it was edgy to see

1044
00:58:47,440 --> 00:58:50,640
Speaker 2: the real estate people watch for artists to move into

1045
00:58:50,680 --> 00:58:53,880
Speaker 2: those areas, watch for galleries to open up to support

1046
00:58:54,000 --> 00:58:57,480
Speaker 2: artists like what we were doing. They would be now

1047
00:58:57,560 --> 00:59:01,520
Speaker 2: it's time to buy and they would buy up the

1048
00:59:01,600 --> 00:59:06,880
Speaker 2: property that was completely like decrepit, and now that became

1049
00:59:07,680 --> 00:59:09,240
Speaker 2: the high rent district, if you will.

1050
00:59:09,320 --> 00:59:12,280
Speaker 1: It's crazy to say that because if you say alphabet City, now,

1051
00:59:12,280 --> 00:59:14,960
Speaker 1: I'm like, man, some of the greatest record stores, some

1052
00:59:15,040 --> 00:59:19,959
Speaker 1: of the best homakazi sushi ever had. Yeah, I missed

1053
00:59:19,960 --> 00:59:34,880
Speaker 1: an era from the outside. Looking at the outside, I mean,

1054
00:59:34,920 --> 00:59:38,560
Speaker 1: I'm a Philadelphia you know, I was force fed the

1055
00:59:38,680 --> 00:59:41,480
Speaker 1: history of hip hop in the Bronx, hip hop in

1056
00:59:41,480 --> 00:59:42,800
Speaker 1: the Bronx and the Bronx and the Bronx and the

1057
00:59:42,800 --> 00:59:47,840
Speaker 1: Bronx and Bronx. But you know, I know that this

1058
00:59:47,960 --> 00:59:51,480
Speaker 1: culture is also developing in other boroughs as well. Correct,

1059
00:59:52,280 --> 00:59:56,240
Speaker 1: what were your earliest hip hop experiences in Brooklyn?

1060
00:59:56,680 --> 00:59:59,600
Speaker 2: Sure? So before it's hip hop, and I had to

1061
00:59:59,680 --> 01:00:05,520
Speaker 2: hand it that it was these mobile basically disco DJs.

1062
01:00:05,840 --> 01:00:08,640
Speaker 2: This begins from I mean, they probably go back to

1063
01:00:08,680 --> 01:00:11,760
Speaker 2: the late sixties, but as a young shorty I got

1064
01:00:11,760 --> 01:00:16,040
Speaker 2: to experience them coming to the parks or block parties

1065
01:00:16,120 --> 01:00:20,320
Speaker 2: in Bedstock and these were the guys that made being

1066
01:00:20,480 --> 01:00:25,600
Speaker 2: a DJ cool. Just they weren't cutting, scratching, nobody was

1067
01:00:25,640 --> 01:00:29,880
Speaker 2: really rapping, but just keeping the music going continually was

1068
01:00:30,040 --> 01:00:34,600
Speaker 2: a huge innovation. And the better of those guys could

1069
01:00:34,680 --> 01:00:38,520
Speaker 2: blend records that kind of almost connected and keep a

1070
01:00:38,600 --> 01:00:41,400
Speaker 2: groove going, you know, BPM, beats, permnt and all that

1071
01:00:41,440 --> 01:00:44,960
Speaker 2: stuff we'd learned about later. And so some of the

1072
01:00:45,000 --> 01:00:48,760
Speaker 2: people that I remembered that resonated was in my area

1073
01:00:48,840 --> 01:00:52,840
Speaker 2: Bedstot was Frankie D. It was Master D who later

1074
01:00:52,920 --> 01:00:58,160
Speaker 2: became DJ Lance Rest in Peace. It was Pete, DJ Jones,

1075
01:00:58,960 --> 01:01:02,960
Speaker 2: DJ Plumber, me Boya and Queens. It was people like

1076
01:01:03,280 --> 01:01:07,320
Speaker 2: Infinity Machine, you know, the disco twins. These guys had

1077
01:01:07,520 --> 01:01:12,520
Speaker 2: massive sound systems, speakers, turntables, a mixer, crates of records,

1078
01:01:12,560 --> 01:01:15,200
Speaker 2: and they'd come out and just they were the rock

1079
01:01:15,240 --> 01:01:19,720
Speaker 2: stars in the community that really fueled what became the

1080
01:01:19,840 --> 01:01:24,160
Speaker 2: disco boom. Okay, this is before Saturday Night Fever, before

1081
01:01:24,240 --> 01:01:27,640
Speaker 2: Studio fifty four. This was where it all comes from.

1082
01:01:27,880 --> 01:01:32,440
Speaker 2: And who helped pushed us into the mainstream was Frankie Krocker,

1083
01:01:33,000 --> 01:01:37,200
Speaker 2: the DJ and program director of WBLS, who had his

1084
01:01:37,360 --> 01:01:40,959
Speaker 2: ear tapped in to these DJs, and when he saw

1085
01:01:41,000 --> 01:01:43,960
Speaker 2: the crowd respond to whatever they were playing, he would

1086
01:01:43,960 --> 01:01:48,280
Speaker 2: program that and spend that on BLS regardless of what

1087
01:01:48,480 --> 01:01:50,960
Speaker 2: was on the chart. He didn't follow the chart. He

1088
01:01:51,040 --> 01:01:53,280
Speaker 2: followed his ears and he was in the man in

1089
01:01:53,360 --> 01:01:57,800
Speaker 2: control and that lit a fuse that set off a

1090
01:01:57,880 --> 01:02:01,080
Speaker 2: move throughout the city. This was where energy was coming

1091
01:02:01,120 --> 01:02:05,920
Speaker 2: from these DJs and then these parties. They would eventually

1092
01:02:06,000 --> 01:02:11,720
Speaker 2: like rent out restaurants in Midtown during a bad economic

1093
01:02:11,800 --> 01:02:14,840
Speaker 2: time in the city, and then they would promote these

1094
01:02:14,880 --> 01:02:20,400
Speaker 2: parties on BLS. Places like Nel Gwan's Riverbow Cafe, Nemo's

1095
01:02:20,520 --> 01:02:24,200
Speaker 2: Superstar Caf Nemos or whatever. These are places i'd hear about.

1096
01:02:24,400 --> 01:02:26,280
Speaker 2: I didn't have the money. I'm still like a young teen,

1097
01:02:26,560 --> 01:02:29,440
Speaker 2: but I'm aware of what this is going on. So

1098
01:02:29,480 --> 01:02:34,240
Speaker 2: this was the spark that inspired Cool Herk to do

1099
01:02:34,280 --> 01:02:38,480
Speaker 2: what he did and other DJs around the city. Yes,

1100
01:02:38,560 --> 01:02:41,680
Speaker 2: this is how it goes down. There's a misnoma that

1101
01:02:41,920 --> 01:02:45,720
Speaker 2: just because Cool Herk is from Jamaica, keep in mind

1102
01:02:45,760 --> 01:02:48,440
Speaker 2: he's about twelve or so years old when he immigrates

1103
01:02:48,440 --> 01:02:52,240
Speaker 2: to the city, that because there's this incredible dance hall

1104
01:02:52,360 --> 01:02:55,800
Speaker 2: reggae scene that goes on. What's even more interesting is

1105
01:02:55,840 --> 01:03:01,800
Speaker 2: that these two forms of dang if you will, are

1106
01:03:02,440 --> 01:03:05,959
Speaker 2: developed independent of each other, not aware of each other,

1107
01:03:06,360 --> 01:03:11,800
Speaker 2: but from similar inspiration, which were the black radio jocks

1108
01:03:12,080 --> 01:03:15,600
Speaker 2: in Jamaica. When the weather is right, they can catch

1109
01:03:15,920 --> 01:03:20,320
Speaker 2: the black radio jock in New Orleans or maybe somebody

1110
01:03:20,360 --> 01:03:23,320
Speaker 2: that had a late night show in Florida, and they

1111
01:03:23,320 --> 01:03:26,560
Speaker 2: were sort of emulating that idea of the deep. Matter

1112
01:03:26,600 --> 01:03:29,640
Speaker 2: of fact, keep in mind, that's the original disc jockey,

1113
01:03:30,000 --> 01:03:32,720
Speaker 2: is the guy playing music on the radio talking a

1114
01:03:32,760 --> 01:03:39,080
Speaker 2: little slick patter. JACKO, well, Jocko of course is a

1115
01:03:39,080 --> 01:03:45,600
Speaker 2: great example. But what's the brother on Sacks Records that

1116
01:03:45,680 --> 01:03:47,960
Speaker 2: did the was it Rufus Thomas.

1117
01:03:48,080 --> 01:03:49,280
Speaker 1: Yes, he was a.

1118
01:03:49,320 --> 01:03:53,040
Speaker 2: Radio guy, super popular as sly Stone. So these are

1119
01:03:53,040 --> 01:03:55,920
Speaker 2: the guys in the black community that would get a

1120
01:03:56,400 --> 01:03:59,720
Speaker 2: Oftentimes it'd be a late night radio slot that did

1121
01:04:00,200 --> 01:04:04,200
Speaker 2: talk that slick, jazzy patter with rhyming a little bit

1122
01:04:04,240 --> 01:04:06,240
Speaker 2: here and there. Frankie Kraker came out of that whole

1123
01:04:06,320 --> 01:04:09,760
Speaker 2: thing as well. Also in New York it was WWRRAL

1124
01:04:09,920 --> 01:04:12,480
Speaker 2: with people like Hank Span and these guys that talk

1125
01:04:12,600 --> 01:04:16,520
Speaker 2: real slick and groovy. Those were the initial inspirations for

1126
01:04:16,600 --> 01:04:20,680
Speaker 2: the idea of being a DJ. Keep controlling that music

1127
01:04:21,120 --> 01:04:25,120
Speaker 2: and then the whole pattern are talking. Initially, the first

1128
01:04:25,160 --> 01:04:28,720
Speaker 2: talking on the mic at these local parties was promoting

1129
01:04:28,720 --> 01:04:31,680
Speaker 2: who the DJ was. You know, Flash will tell you

1130
01:04:32,000 --> 01:04:33,960
Speaker 2: he just set up a mic stand and I think

1131
01:04:33,960 --> 01:04:37,160
Speaker 2: it was Kid Creole that got on the mic first,

1132
01:04:37,200 --> 01:04:39,680
Speaker 2: and then you know, Mellie mel and Cowboy and the

1133
01:04:39,760 --> 01:04:40,880
Speaker 2: rest would come in.

1134
01:04:40,960 --> 01:04:41,600
Speaker 1: And then they.

1135
01:04:41,520 --> 01:04:44,360
Speaker 2: Developed cool things to say on the mic, But it

1136
01:04:44,440 --> 01:04:49,720
Speaker 2: was all about the DJ initially. So I witnessed all

1137
01:04:49,760 --> 01:04:51,880
Speaker 2: of that transpired. This was some of the stuff.

1138
01:04:51,880 --> 01:04:54,800
Speaker 1: If you want, how would you know something was happening.

1139
01:04:55,360 --> 01:04:58,400
Speaker 2: Oh, we'd be a I remember on certain summer nights,

1140
01:04:58,480 --> 01:05:01,560
Speaker 2: man and sitting on the student When it got quiet enough,

1141
01:05:01,600 --> 01:05:05,400
Speaker 2: you might hear the rumble of some of the base

1142
01:05:05,440 --> 01:05:08,600
Speaker 2: bottoms and he'd be like, that was what we were

1143
01:05:08,640 --> 01:05:11,160
Speaker 2: talking in Brooklyn at that time. In best I was like, yo,

1144
01:05:11,200 --> 01:05:13,960
Speaker 2: where they jamming at? Yo, it's a jam at this park,

1145
01:05:14,320 --> 01:05:18,560
Speaker 2: forty four Park, Saint John's Park, Breevoid Projects. I hear

1146
01:05:18,600 --> 01:05:20,880
Speaker 2: there's a jam going on, we would be we would

1147
01:05:20,920 --> 01:05:24,560
Speaker 2: walk all over to these parks or the right block

1148
01:05:24,680 --> 01:05:29,360
Speaker 2: party to hear one of these hot mobile DJ's playing.

1149
01:05:29,720 --> 01:05:32,560
Speaker 2: And it was at one of these parties I think

1150
01:05:32,600 --> 01:05:35,120
Speaker 2: it might have been a Master d party when he

1151
01:05:35,200 --> 01:05:39,080
Speaker 2: put on something real different. A couple of cats dropped

1152
01:05:39,120 --> 01:05:42,640
Speaker 2: to the floor doing a semblance of breakdancing, and I

1153
01:05:42,640 --> 01:05:46,200
Speaker 2: don't know if it was Apatche, Bob James, Marty Grs.

1154
01:05:46,560 --> 01:05:49,240
Speaker 2: It was something that I was like, what is he playing?

1155
01:05:49,320 --> 01:05:51,000
Speaker 2: And I went up to DJ said Yo, what's that?

1156
01:05:51,080 --> 01:05:54,040
Speaker 2: And the cat the first inkling of something. He said, Yo,

1157
01:05:54,360 --> 01:05:57,520
Speaker 2: that's the uptown sound. But this is when you'd go

1158
01:05:57,640 --> 01:06:00,000
Speaker 2: up to the rope. DJ's was set up a rope

1159
01:06:00,160 --> 01:06:02,880
Speaker 2: around them playing. It would always be a crew of

1160
01:06:02,960 --> 01:06:05,840
Speaker 2: kids watching, like just standing at everything. These are all

1161
01:06:05,840 --> 01:06:08,800
Speaker 2: the kids that wanted to be DJ's. This one inspired

1162
01:06:08,880 --> 01:06:12,320
Speaker 2: early DJs to soak. They records so they could see

1163
01:06:12,360 --> 01:06:15,720
Speaker 2: you're because people like, yo, what's he playing? I never

1164
01:06:15,800 --> 01:06:18,040
Speaker 2: heard that? No way? Oh you know, was like, no,

1165
01:06:18,080 --> 01:06:20,720
Speaker 2: I'm soaking the label off of this final So you

1166
01:06:20,800 --> 01:06:23,600
Speaker 2: will never know, because that's part of what the attraction is.

1167
01:06:23,880 --> 01:06:26,080
Speaker 2: Only you will only hear this record and you go

1168
01:06:26,160 --> 01:06:29,600
Speaker 2: to this cat spinning anyway, dude said it's the uptown sound.

1169
01:06:29,680 --> 01:06:31,640
Speaker 2: Like I literally went, I got some of my homies

1170
01:06:31,640 --> 01:06:33,560
Speaker 2: off my block and we took the train up to

1171
01:06:34,120 --> 01:06:37,320
Speaker 2: up to Harlem and walked around asking cats where they

1172
01:06:37,440 --> 01:06:40,200
Speaker 2: jamming at. You know, we was just trying to find like,

1173
01:06:40,280 --> 01:06:41,960
Speaker 2: what's this uptown sound. I didn't know if it was

1174
01:06:42,040 --> 01:06:45,680
Speaker 2: uptown Manhattan or the Bronx, but I was obsessed. Just

1175
01:06:45,720 --> 01:06:50,240
Speaker 2: blindly went yes, yes, I like, what is this going on? Like, oh,

1176
01:06:50,320 --> 01:06:52,040
Speaker 2: y'all having jams uptown too?

1177
01:06:52,120 --> 01:06:52,920
Speaker 1: What did you discover?

1178
01:06:53,360 --> 01:06:55,960
Speaker 2: Nothing? So it was a minute. I didn't even connect

1179
01:06:55,960 --> 01:06:59,520
Speaker 2: with nobody. But ironically, as I detail in my book,

1180
01:06:59,560 --> 01:07:04,320
Speaker 2: when I connected with Lee kenyonis like I'm I'm asking, Yo,

1181
01:07:04,360 --> 01:07:07,800
Speaker 2: are you hip to these DJs? I hear these cats uptown?

1182
01:07:08,160 --> 01:07:11,360
Speaker 2: They doing something different? Oh yeah? And he I mean

1183
01:07:11,400 --> 01:07:14,000
Speaker 2: I probably had heard Flash his name by this point

1184
01:07:14,160 --> 01:07:17,040
Speaker 2: and I know a few colonels of info and Lee said,

1185
01:07:17,080 --> 01:07:19,000
Speaker 2: wait a minute, Yo, I know what you're talking about.

1186
01:07:19,160 --> 01:07:22,160
Speaker 2: Those cats have played at the community center at the

1187
01:07:22,200 --> 01:07:25,120
Speaker 2: base of these project. This is the Smith Projects in

1188
01:07:25,200 --> 01:07:27,120
Speaker 2: the Lower east Side, right at the base of the

1189
01:07:27,120 --> 01:07:31,080
Speaker 2: Brooklyn Bridge. I'm like, what. So. Literally a month or

1190
01:07:31,160 --> 01:07:34,240
Speaker 2: so later, Lee let me know that it was flashing

1191
01:07:34,240 --> 01:07:36,720
Speaker 2: and furious for this is seventy eight. I only need

1192
01:07:36,760 --> 01:07:41,760
Speaker 2: the seventy eight seventy nine, Lee says, Yo, They're gonna

1193
01:07:41,760 --> 01:07:44,560
Speaker 2: be playing at the right here in the community center

1194
01:07:44,640 --> 01:07:48,280
Speaker 2: this weekend. It was flashing and furious. For the fifth member,

1195
01:07:48,400 --> 01:07:51,680
Speaker 2: Raheem hadn't joined the group yet. And that's how I connect.

1196
01:07:51,720 --> 01:07:55,200
Speaker 2: I'm there at that party. I speak to Mellie man

1197
01:07:55,360 --> 01:07:57,320
Speaker 2: I said, Man, you ever think about making a record?

1198
01:07:57,360 --> 01:08:00,600
Speaker 2: He was like, who would buy it? That's what Melie

1199
01:08:00,600 --> 01:08:03,280
Speaker 2: Melo said to me, because it wasn't about records yet.

1200
01:08:03,520 --> 01:08:06,720
Speaker 2: These cats was getting three four hundred dollars for spending

1201
01:08:07,080 --> 01:08:09,920
Speaker 2: here there whatever. This was what it was at that time.

1202
01:08:09,960 --> 01:08:11,520
Speaker 1: How long would the party last?

1203
01:08:11,880 --> 01:08:16,240
Speaker 2: The party would be from you know, ten eleven to three, two,

1204
01:08:16,320 --> 01:08:17,519
Speaker 2: three four in the morning.

1205
01:08:17,720 --> 01:08:22,920
Speaker 1: You know, Now, I'll do a two to three hour set,

1206
01:08:23,280 --> 01:08:26,479
Speaker 1: and I'm already like it's about one hundred and eighty songs,

1207
01:08:26,760 --> 01:08:28,920
Speaker 1: but it's twenty twenty six. There's a whole history of

1208
01:08:28,960 --> 01:08:31,240
Speaker 1: music behind me. Yeah, but I'm trying to figure out,

1209
01:08:31,280 --> 01:08:36,160
Speaker 1: like in nineteen seventy eight, with just like a good

1210
01:08:36,320 --> 01:08:38,960
Speaker 1: quality maybe forty songs if you're lucky.

1211
01:08:39,040 --> 01:08:41,840
Speaker 2: Wow, it's like, how do you make shit last?

1212
01:08:42,400 --> 01:08:46,439
Speaker 1: And was there ever a law or well?

1213
01:08:46,520 --> 01:08:50,040
Speaker 2: Typically four o'clock was to cut off for most joints

1214
01:08:50,080 --> 01:08:53,800
Speaker 2: because in New York we got our liquor lore. It

1215
01:08:53,880 --> 01:08:56,719
Speaker 2: goes to four. Most places when I would begin to travel,

1216
01:08:56,840 --> 01:09:00,160
Speaker 2: it's over at two. But New York, I realized in

1217
01:09:00,160 --> 01:09:04,080
Speaker 2: one of the few cities I think, like New Orleans

1218
01:09:04,200 --> 01:09:07,040
Speaker 2: or Louisiana, things can go to four, which I was like, wow.

1219
01:09:07,120 --> 01:09:10,360
Speaker 2: But most other places everything was a rap at two.

1220
01:09:10,880 --> 01:09:13,320
Speaker 2: But typically a party would go to that time, I

1221
01:09:13,360 --> 01:09:14,600
Speaker 2: mean most of the most of it.

1222
01:09:14,680 --> 01:09:17,240
Speaker 1: What about noise ordinances, like when cops come in and

1223
01:09:17,280 --> 01:09:18,040
Speaker 1: be like, yo, it's.

1224
01:09:17,880 --> 01:09:20,720
Speaker 2: Too loud, or at a gymnasium, no, because it's like

1225
01:09:20,760 --> 01:09:22,679
Speaker 2: a contained area.

1226
01:09:22,720 --> 01:09:24,880
Speaker 1: I don't you have any you know, the sound was

1227
01:09:24,920 --> 01:09:26,320
Speaker 1: good to you? Like it felt like no.

1228
01:09:26,479 --> 01:09:30,160
Speaker 2: A lot of the sound at that time, the quality

1229
01:09:30,200 --> 01:09:32,719
Speaker 2: of a lot of the sound was bad.

1230
01:09:33,240 --> 01:09:36,799
Speaker 1: Finally someone tells me the truth. Oh god, Ama was crazy.

1231
01:09:36,840 --> 01:09:40,400
Speaker 2: We hadn't some guys talk ship, but I'd go to

1232
01:09:40,439 --> 01:09:45,040
Speaker 2: a lot of jams, and you know, Bronx guys initially

1233
01:09:45,200 --> 01:09:49,080
Speaker 2: didn't have great equipment, but they had the innovative idea.

1234
01:09:49,120 --> 01:09:51,240
Speaker 2: And the way I look at it is also because

1235
01:09:51,280 --> 01:09:53,920
Speaker 2: the Bronx was the poorest borough. A lot of times

1236
01:09:54,040 --> 01:09:57,640
Speaker 2: you're about to tell the Herculeoids and these her I

1237
01:09:57,680 --> 01:10:00,280
Speaker 2: believe had I'm from Brooklyn, but I believe her had

1238
01:10:00,280 --> 01:10:02,439
Speaker 2: a massive system, which was the thing, so that Hurkley

1239
01:10:02,479 --> 01:10:05,040
Speaker 2: had the big speakers whatever, but a lot of people

1240
01:10:05,200 --> 01:10:08,240
Speaker 2: was cobbling together shit. I remember hearing about CAS was

1241
01:10:08,640 --> 01:10:12,280
Speaker 2: they would snatched the audio PA speakers out of the

1242
01:10:12,400 --> 01:10:15,760
Speaker 2: training station. CASS would take the speakers out of their

1243
01:10:15,840 --> 01:10:18,920
Speaker 2: TV sets, out of the big consoles. You had the

1244
01:10:18,960 --> 01:10:21,640
Speaker 2: big piece of furniture TV in the crypt. CAS was

1245
01:10:21,680 --> 01:10:25,599
Speaker 2: trying to cobble together anything to get some bigger sound.

1246
01:10:25,720 --> 01:10:27,240
Speaker 1: You know what, I believe you.

1247
01:10:27,439 --> 01:10:29,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was crazy. So I remember going to some

1248
01:10:29,960 --> 01:10:32,599
Speaker 2: parts to be like, Yo, this shit sounds horrible. Some

1249
01:10:32,640 --> 01:10:35,320
Speaker 2: of the mobile d what I would learn later, like,

1250
01:10:35,320 --> 01:10:38,920
Speaker 2: there's an incredible documentary I took part in it. My

1251
01:10:39,040 --> 01:10:44,080
Speaker 2: man Ron Am and Rad Lawrence produced this along with

1252
01:10:44,120 --> 01:10:48,679
Speaker 2: my boy Hassan Poor. It's called Founding Fathers, which gets

1253
01:10:48,680 --> 01:10:52,200
Speaker 2: into a lot of these early disco DJs that set

1254
01:10:52,240 --> 01:10:54,880
Speaker 2: the table for what HERK and the rest of hip

1255
01:10:54,880 --> 01:10:57,880
Speaker 2: hop would be. Some of these cats. I remember distinkling

1256
01:10:57,920 --> 01:11:00,400
Speaker 2: that doc one of these cats, pops Hit, had some

1257
01:11:00,439 --> 01:11:03,760
Speaker 2: paper and gave his son a couple of g's, which

1258
01:11:03,840 --> 01:11:06,879
Speaker 2: was a lot of money still is. But then probably

1259
01:11:06,920 --> 01:11:09,120
Speaker 2: you know, of course, the living to go and buy

1260
01:11:09,360 --> 01:11:14,120
Speaker 2: the big effect official stuff, sir. When Vegas Speakers was

1261
01:11:14,160 --> 01:11:16,920
Speaker 2: a big brand, get the right amps and all of

1262
01:11:16,960 --> 01:11:20,559
Speaker 2: this stuff. I mean, they had better. A lot of

1263
01:11:20,560 --> 01:11:23,120
Speaker 2: these mobile DJs that led up to it had better

1264
01:11:23,200 --> 01:11:28,360
Speaker 2: sound quality. But the innovations were definitely sparked by what

1265
01:11:28,479 --> 01:11:31,840
Speaker 2: HERK did and the cats wanting to cut, scratch and

1266
01:11:31,920 --> 01:11:35,640
Speaker 2: mix and what Flash did, like going into serious R

1267
01:11:35,720 --> 01:11:40,599
Speaker 2: and D did innovate tremendously, so that all did go down.

1268
01:11:40,640 --> 01:11:43,559
Speaker 2: But you know this is what you navigated through.

1269
01:11:45,040 --> 01:11:47,120
Speaker 1: I believe you only know I went. I went to

1270
01:11:47,160 --> 01:11:49,639
Speaker 1: Cuba for the first time in two thousand and two,

1271
01:11:50,640 --> 01:11:53,840
Speaker 1: and it was like it was like time traveling back

1272
01:11:53,880 --> 01:11:54,600
Speaker 1: to the seventies.

1273
01:11:54,880 --> 01:11:56,439
Speaker 2: I went to Cuba earlier and.

1274
01:11:56,800 --> 01:11:59,960
Speaker 1: They were one guy had a car speaker, one guy

1275
01:12:00,040 --> 01:12:00,519
Speaker 1: I had that.

1276
01:12:00,479 --> 01:12:03,559
Speaker 2: Thank you yes, and they were something similar. When I

1277
01:12:03,560 --> 01:12:05,880
Speaker 2: went to Cube, they jerry rigged whatever they can have

1278
01:12:05,960 --> 01:12:08,560
Speaker 2: and it was so magical to watch the whole community.

1279
01:12:09,160 --> 01:12:11,680
Speaker 1: I have the headphones, I have this record, I have

1280
01:12:11,760 --> 01:12:13,840
Speaker 1: this turntable, I have this cassette player.

1281
01:12:13,960 --> 01:12:15,439
Speaker 2: I saw it at these cords.

1282
01:12:15,600 --> 01:12:19,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I seen people with razors, like yes, it was

1283
01:12:19,640 --> 01:12:21,040
Speaker 1: the most incredible thing I ever seen.

1284
01:12:21,080 --> 01:12:24,800
Speaker 2: A lot of that in the in the in this

1285
01:12:25,040 --> 01:12:28,160
Speaker 2: desire to be in that space because it was so

1286
01:12:28,439 --> 01:12:31,479
Speaker 2: huge at that time. And yes, once again HRK did

1287
01:12:31,600 --> 01:12:34,679
Speaker 2: have the Hercules, which was the name of his big

1288
01:12:34,840 --> 01:12:37,760
Speaker 2: powerful speakers, but a lot of other cats didn't have that.

1289
01:12:37,840 --> 01:12:39,720
Speaker 2: You just didn't have the money. That stuff costs a

1290
01:12:39,760 --> 01:12:43,639
Speaker 2: few thousand dollars to get the amps, the speakers. All

1291
01:12:43,680 --> 01:12:47,639
Speaker 2: the equipment needed was a heavy lift. That's why the

1292
01:12:47,640 --> 01:12:52,240
Speaker 2: famous story is when the Blackout of nineteen seventy seven happened,

1293
01:12:52,720 --> 01:12:55,639
Speaker 2: a lot of cats in the Bronx went to them

1294
01:12:55,720 --> 01:13:00,840
Speaker 2: areas when the and they liberated a lot of equipment.

1295
01:13:01,760 --> 01:13:04,080
Speaker 1: See that's how I thought hip hop started.

1296
01:13:04,880 --> 01:13:06,960
Speaker 2: And it's you know, the great thing about YouTube now

1297
01:13:07,040 --> 01:13:11,800
Speaker 2: if you google Grand Master Flowers, Pete DJ Jones, people

1298
01:13:13,400 --> 01:13:16,200
Speaker 2: not telling the story, but there was little clips and

1299
01:13:16,280 --> 01:13:20,080
Speaker 2: moments and footage of these guys that people found some

1300
01:13:20,160 --> 01:13:23,479
Speaker 2: maybe somebody filming on a Super eight film camera and

1301
01:13:23,520 --> 01:13:26,320
Speaker 2: you could see Flowers and you could get a peek

1302
01:13:26,360 --> 01:13:29,639
Speaker 2: at these guys. But if you see this documentary, which

1303
01:13:29,680 --> 01:13:31,800
Speaker 2: I believe should be on two b By now was

1304
01:13:31,840 --> 01:13:35,720
Speaker 2: on YouTube for quite a while, this Founding Fathers, you

1305
01:13:35,760 --> 01:13:38,960
Speaker 2: get a real good look and understanding of the people

1306
01:13:39,000 --> 01:13:41,840
Speaker 2: that predated what we know of as hip hop. So

1307
01:13:41,880 --> 01:13:45,120
Speaker 2: it was a fascinating story with a bit more of

1308
01:13:45,200 --> 01:13:47,479
Speaker 2: a history that's not as widely known because these guys

1309
01:13:47,520 --> 01:13:51,160
Speaker 2: didn't make records. They just played at party, so they

1310
01:13:51,200 --> 01:13:54,320
Speaker 2: didn't record a compilation or do any of this stuff.

1311
01:13:54,360 --> 01:13:57,439
Speaker 2: All of that would happen during hip hop. The whole

1312
01:13:57,479 --> 01:14:01,000
Speaker 2: idea of the well once again, initially it was all

1313
01:14:01,040 --> 01:14:03,600
Speaker 2: about who the DJ was and how many watts in

1314
01:14:03,640 --> 01:14:07,200
Speaker 2: his system. The rapper was there just to big up

1315
01:14:07,240 --> 01:14:12,400
Speaker 2: who the DJ was. The rapper eventually took over inadvertently

1316
01:14:12,640 --> 01:14:16,559
Speaker 2: and when all the great records came out, and the

1317
01:14:16,680 --> 01:14:21,040
Speaker 2: DJ was pushed further to sell the back. The ones

1318
01:14:21,080 --> 01:14:26,920
Speaker 2: that were on top of the game became producers, the DJs,

1319
01:14:27,200 --> 01:14:30,080
Speaker 2: because it was the thing, you know, in the beginning,

1320
01:14:30,120 --> 01:14:32,920
Speaker 2: as you know, I'm sure you know, in the early

1321
01:14:33,040 --> 01:14:37,080
Speaker 2: phase of hip hop hitting records, everybody had their DJ

1322
01:14:37,560 --> 01:14:40,920
Speaker 2: because the DJ was that was the nucleus of it all.

1323
01:14:41,479 --> 01:14:44,479
Speaker 2: But that pushed further to the back, unfortunately as the

1324
01:14:44,640 --> 01:14:48,360
Speaker 2: rapper became, you know, the kind of pre eminent thing.

1325
01:14:59,320 --> 01:15:02,240
Speaker 1: So I've been dying to ask you all my life.

1326
01:15:02,400 --> 01:15:06,240
Speaker 1: All Right, I'm going to time travel. Let's go to

1327
01:15:07,240 --> 01:15:09,759
Speaker 1: Let's go to nineteen eighty eighty one. All right, sure,

1328
01:15:09,800 --> 01:15:13,360
Speaker 1: I'm going to be your intern. I'm ten eleven here.

1329
01:15:14,080 --> 01:15:18,680
Speaker 1: I want you to walk me through from sketchbook to

1330
01:15:18,960 --> 01:15:22,639
Speaker 1: completion when you see it ride by. Walk me through

1331
01:15:22,680 --> 01:15:27,200
Speaker 1: the entire process. Now, I mean, like in your early beginnings,

1332
01:15:27,200 --> 01:15:32,000
Speaker 1: but tagging a train like you're Campbell soup. Yeah, idea, Yeah,

1333
01:15:32,280 --> 01:15:36,559
Speaker 1: walk me from sketchbook, acquiring the paint, knowing what time

1334
01:15:36,600 --> 01:15:40,519
Speaker 1: to go, who's the lookout. I want to know that

1335
01:15:40,600 --> 01:15:44,600
Speaker 1: the entire duration of how this happens.

1336
01:15:44,080 --> 01:15:47,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, spray paint was. It was all kind of

1337
01:15:47,960 --> 01:15:51,439
Speaker 2: liberated at that time. Of course, it's a New York thing.

1338
01:15:51,680 --> 01:15:54,680
Speaker 2: There's a reason where any place that's selling spray paint,

1339
01:15:54,800 --> 01:15:58,080
Speaker 2: it's usually in a cage. It's usually like a metal thing,

1340
01:15:58,800 --> 01:16:00,839
Speaker 2: because that was requisite.

1341
01:16:00,920 --> 01:16:04,120
Speaker 1: That's how how long did it take them to catch

1342
01:16:04,200 --> 01:16:05,479
Speaker 1: on that this is what it's for.

1343
01:16:05,640 --> 01:16:08,120
Speaker 2: This all started back in the seventies, okay, I mean

1344
01:16:08,160 --> 01:16:10,280
Speaker 2: you just your hardware store. It'd be like, where's all

1345
01:16:10,280 --> 01:16:13,120
Speaker 2: the spray paint going? And it was like, clearly, I

1346
01:16:13,160 --> 01:16:17,840
Speaker 2: mean the casts was on some super stealth shoplifting shit.

1347
01:16:18,000 --> 01:16:21,920
Speaker 2: That was what it was. Ninety percent of where it

1348
01:16:21,960 --> 01:16:23,320
Speaker 2: came from. That's how it was.

1349
01:16:23,360 --> 01:16:26,160
Speaker 1: It was. Even so no one's like pulling up the

1350
01:16:26,760 --> 01:16:29,559
Speaker 1: year I got forty cans? How much is that? No one?

1351
01:16:29,720 --> 01:16:32,640
Speaker 2: Hell, everybody for the most part doing this at that

1352
01:16:32,720 --> 01:16:35,559
Speaker 2: time is a teenager. All of this culture was invented

1353
01:16:35,560 --> 01:16:40,240
Speaker 2: by teenagers. Okay, the beginnings of the rap hip hop thing.

1354
01:16:40,320 --> 01:16:43,760
Speaker 2: Everybody's is a teenager. So nobody has one hundreds of

1355
01:16:43,760 --> 01:16:47,120
Speaker 2: dollars that's required to go and do this, And so

1356
01:16:47,840 --> 01:16:52,320
Speaker 2: those metal frames were put were affixed to that part

1357
01:16:52,320 --> 01:16:56,240
Speaker 2: of the hardware store that sold spray paint. That became

1358
01:16:56,400 --> 01:16:59,360
Speaker 2: a thing, but before that was a thing in the

1359
01:16:59,360 --> 01:17:03,240
Speaker 2: graffiti fine cats would be like, yo, such and such

1360
01:17:03,280 --> 01:17:06,400
Speaker 2: a store, such and such a location. They got all

1361
01:17:06,439 --> 01:17:09,760
Speaker 2: the right colors and it's a good look. So graffiti

1362
01:17:09,840 --> 01:17:13,720
Speaker 2: cats would move on these places to get the to

1363
01:17:13,760 --> 01:17:17,040
Speaker 2: get the paint. It was one well known graffiti artist

1364
01:17:17,320 --> 01:17:23,240
Speaker 2: whose girl had made a baby carriage and the space

1365
01:17:23,720 --> 01:17:26,960
Speaker 2: that was supposed to be the baby was hollowed out.

1366
01:17:27,040 --> 01:17:30,000
Speaker 2: So he going there with his chick, you know, and

1367
01:17:30,040 --> 01:17:32,120
Speaker 2: they were slipping. So they might be able to put

1368
01:17:32,160 --> 01:17:35,759
Speaker 2: ten or fifteen cans in this hollowed out baby.

1369
01:17:36,240 --> 01:17:39,760
Speaker 1: How many cans would you need to really make the

1370
01:17:39,800 --> 01:17:40,719
Speaker 1: train of your dreams?

1371
01:17:40,800 --> 01:17:44,840
Speaker 2: Okay, it tends how much? Yeah, no question. So for

1372
01:17:44,880 --> 01:17:50,040
Speaker 2: the soup can, that's a whole car top to bottom

1373
01:17:51,120 --> 01:17:55,320
Speaker 2: subway cars about twenty feet in length by about eight

1374
01:17:55,360 --> 01:17:58,920
Speaker 2: feet high. That's a good That might be a good

1375
01:17:58,960 --> 01:18:01,720
Speaker 2: twenty or so can. A lot of red and a

1376
01:18:01,720 --> 01:18:04,640
Speaker 2: lot of white, because that's the main thing. What you

1377
01:18:04,680 --> 01:18:07,200
Speaker 2: would have is you would have what you have different

1378
01:18:07,240 --> 01:18:10,920
Speaker 2: types of caps. Now, graffiti has now elevated to it's

1379
01:18:10,960 --> 01:18:14,360
Speaker 2: like an official art form, So there's companies that literally

1380
01:18:14,439 --> 01:18:19,840
Speaker 2: manufacture varying caps and tops to give you different sized lines,

1381
01:18:19,920 --> 01:18:23,960
Speaker 2: and we would have to hit up the Jiffy. The

1382
01:18:24,000 --> 01:18:28,760
Speaker 2: oven cleaner was one oven cleaner and spray starch had

1383
01:18:28,920 --> 01:18:32,280
Speaker 2: caps that would spray out in a wide area. So

1384
01:18:32,400 --> 01:18:35,000
Speaker 2: once you do your outline for whether it's a letter

1385
01:18:35,080 --> 01:18:37,400
Speaker 2: or whatever you're trying to draw, you then put on

1386
01:18:37,439 --> 01:18:40,240
Speaker 2: what we call a fat cap to do the fill in.

1387
01:18:40,640 --> 01:18:43,040
Speaker 2: So the line of a fat cap is probably three

1388
01:18:43,080 --> 01:18:46,120
Speaker 2: to four inches wide, so you can fill in quicker

1389
01:18:46,160 --> 01:18:50,320
Speaker 2: as opposed to the line the initial cap that line

1390
01:18:50,360 --> 01:18:52,160
Speaker 2: maybe not more than an inch a half inch.

1391
01:18:52,240 --> 01:18:54,479
Speaker 1: Always wanted to know how you determine, like.

1392
01:18:54,720 --> 01:18:57,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, you could, you know, like everything under the sun.

1393
01:18:57,800 --> 01:19:01,080
Speaker 2: There are two tutorials all over you to that break

1394
01:19:01,120 --> 01:19:03,840
Speaker 2: down how you do this with these caps that you

1395
01:19:03,840 --> 01:19:07,640
Speaker 2: can now acquire. There's even companies that make paint with

1396
01:19:07,880 --> 01:19:11,960
Speaker 2: an incredible array of colors for the purpose of making art,

1397
01:19:12,040 --> 01:19:15,480
Speaker 2: referred to as aerosol art by some as opposed to graffiti,

1398
01:19:15,520 --> 01:19:19,960
Speaker 2: which is technically illegal, but in the formative days, this

1399
01:19:20,000 --> 01:19:22,320
Speaker 2: is how a lot of the paint was acquired. These

1400
01:19:22,360 --> 01:19:24,760
Speaker 2: were the different types of tools and techniques that would

1401
01:19:24,760 --> 01:19:27,599
Speaker 2: be needed, so you would do your outline, let's say

1402
01:19:27,840 --> 01:19:31,120
Speaker 2: for the cans. Then you do the outline. Then you

1403
01:19:31,200 --> 01:19:34,479
Speaker 2: switch up the tops and you start filling in those areas.

1404
01:19:34,479 --> 01:19:37,120
Speaker 2: So with that fat cap you get a wide line.

1405
01:19:37,360 --> 01:19:39,360
Speaker 2: You could fill that in as opposed to a thin

1406
01:19:39,439 --> 01:19:42,120
Speaker 2: line you'd be there forever using too much paint. You

1407
01:19:42,240 --> 01:19:44,320
Speaker 2: come through with a fat cap, fill that in, do

1408
01:19:44,439 --> 01:19:46,720
Speaker 2: the white areas at the top of the can through

1409
01:19:46,760 --> 01:19:48,680
Speaker 2: the red areas at the bottom of the can. If

1410
01:19:48,720 --> 01:19:51,439
Speaker 2: you will get all that right and tight, boom, then

1411
01:19:51,479 --> 01:19:53,719
Speaker 2: you come and do the other layers that need to happen.

1412
01:19:53,840 --> 01:19:55,280
Speaker 1: How are you able to see?

1413
01:19:55,800 --> 01:19:58,360
Speaker 2: Incredibly difficult. It depends if you're in a tunnel, Well,

1414
01:19:58,400 --> 01:20:00,960
Speaker 2: it's going to be a lot darker. But people would

1415
01:20:00,960 --> 01:20:04,759
Speaker 2: adjust and have a lot of graffiti. Writers of course

1416
01:20:04,880 --> 01:20:08,120
Speaker 2: would do a pre sketch in their piece book or

1417
01:20:08,120 --> 01:20:09,240
Speaker 2: on whatever piece of paper.

1418
01:20:09,240 --> 01:20:10,280
Speaker 1: So it's one of those people.

1419
01:20:10,800 --> 01:20:12,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't do a whole lot of pieces, so

1420
01:20:12,520 --> 01:20:14,360
Speaker 2: I'm not trying to front like I was a master

1421
01:20:14,479 --> 01:20:17,120
Speaker 2: do this. I did a lot of tagging, but when

1422
01:20:17,160 --> 01:20:20,360
Speaker 2: I got with Lee, who was a master at that time, God,

1423
01:20:20,760 --> 01:20:23,040
Speaker 2: I learned a hell of a lot. So under lease

1424
01:20:23,120 --> 01:20:27,920
Speaker 2: tutelage regarding the techniques and different colors and stuff. I

1425
01:20:28,000 --> 01:20:30,600
Speaker 2: learned a lot of that from him, and then a

1426
01:20:30,680 --> 01:20:32,680
Speaker 2: lot of the art history stuff because I have been

1427
01:20:32,920 --> 01:20:35,280
Speaker 2: nerding out on pop art and all these different schools

1428
01:20:35,320 --> 01:20:38,160
Speaker 2: of art history. I'm sharing with Lee. So we had

1429
01:20:38,160 --> 01:20:42,679
Speaker 2: a nice little coming together sharing of information. So that's

1430
01:20:43,000 --> 01:20:46,080
Speaker 2: essentially so whether you were doing it's a great image

1431
01:20:46,160 --> 01:20:49,200
Speaker 2: of this and also Star Wars Martha Cooper's photos of

1432
01:20:49,280 --> 01:20:53,000
Speaker 2: my man Dondie rest in Peace in the yard painting,

1433
01:20:53,040 --> 01:20:55,439
Speaker 2: and so he's in the yard where you literally would

1434
01:20:55,520 --> 01:20:59,080
Speaker 2: have to climb up. There's an incredible iconic shot a

1435
01:20:59,240 --> 01:21:03,680
Speaker 2: Dondee stretting two cars in a yard, one leg on

1436
01:21:03,920 --> 01:21:06,200
Speaker 2: this part of the train, the other leg here as

1437
01:21:06,240 --> 01:21:11,240
Speaker 2: he's painting. Iconic photo and that's how what we call

1438
01:21:11,360 --> 01:21:14,120
Speaker 2: top to bottom hole cars. That was the reference. Top

1439
01:21:14,160 --> 01:21:17,120
Speaker 2: to bottom meant that the imagery went from the bottom

1440
01:21:17,120 --> 01:21:20,040
Speaker 2: of the train to the top and the entire car.

1441
01:21:20,160 --> 01:21:22,360
Speaker 2: It was a I think that was the hand of

1442
01:21:22,479 --> 01:21:24,720
Speaker 2: doom Piece. It was his name, Dandie, and then a

1443
01:21:24,840 --> 01:21:27,599
Speaker 2: hand at the end of the just super iconic.

1444
01:21:27,640 --> 01:21:31,439
Speaker 1: So would be necessary like what that is, No, you.

1445
01:21:31,400 --> 01:21:33,439
Speaker 2: Had to climb and hang off a ship to do

1446
01:21:33,520 --> 01:21:35,479
Speaker 2: it no ladder, You wouldn't bring a ladder, and you

1447
01:21:35,560 --> 01:21:38,040
Speaker 2: got to if you're really doing a big piece, you've

1448
01:21:38,080 --> 01:21:41,599
Speaker 2: got a big bag of spray paint, shopping bag. People

1449
01:21:41,680 --> 01:21:44,320
Speaker 2: wasn't rocking backpacks then, so I don't think that was

1450
01:21:44,320 --> 01:21:46,479
Speaker 2: a miss. So you pretty much have a shopping bag.

1451
01:21:46,560 --> 01:21:49,800
Speaker 2: So you'd have to navigate. You'd have to scope out

1452
01:21:49,880 --> 01:21:53,120
Speaker 2: what yard you wanted to do, because graffiti guys would

1453
01:21:53,240 --> 01:21:56,639
Speaker 2: want to hit specific trains. He was like, I'm killing

1454
01:21:56,720 --> 01:22:00,479
Speaker 2: this line. So the Fab five most of their great

1455
01:22:00,479 --> 01:22:03,400
Speaker 2: work was on the Lexington Avenue number five train, so

1456
01:22:03,479 --> 01:22:05,559
Speaker 2: that was a target. So you would then need to

1457
01:22:05,640 --> 01:22:08,040
Speaker 2: know where you can hit the five, whether you hit

1458
01:22:08,080 --> 01:22:11,200
Speaker 2: the yard, go to the yard up in Bychester, or

1459
01:22:11,400 --> 01:22:13,760
Speaker 2: you would know what tunnels the trains could be in

1460
01:22:13,760 --> 01:22:18,519
Speaker 2: the different parts. So in the graffiti scene network, if

1461
01:22:18,560 --> 01:22:21,639
Speaker 2: you will, at that time, if you was really tapped in,

1462
01:22:22,560 --> 01:22:25,760
Speaker 2: you would know or learn from other graph guys where

1463
01:22:25,800 --> 01:22:28,439
Speaker 2: you go to hit this particular line or I'm trying

1464
01:22:28,479 --> 01:22:32,439
Speaker 2: to get up on the fives, the two's, the a's,

1465
01:22:32,640 --> 01:22:34,360
Speaker 2: the b's, the d's.

1466
01:22:34,479 --> 01:22:36,280
Speaker 1: You had to know exactly where the trains.

1467
01:22:36,400 --> 01:22:39,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, you had to know, oh this lay up is

1468
01:22:39,200 --> 01:22:41,920
Speaker 2: where these trains. The layup means when the trains are

1469
01:22:41,920 --> 01:22:45,519
Speaker 2: not running doing rush hour certain times in the day,

1470
01:22:45,640 --> 01:22:49,559
Speaker 2: and then after seven eight when rush hour ends, they

1471
01:22:49,680 --> 01:22:52,760
Speaker 2: lay up most of these trains in certain places. So

1472
01:22:52,880 --> 01:22:55,000
Speaker 2: graph guys would be like, Yo, I'm trying to get

1473
01:22:55,080 --> 01:22:57,880
Speaker 2: up on this line, I'm heading here there, whatever. So

1474
01:22:57,920 --> 01:23:01,160
Speaker 2: that's all a part of the how you did it,

1475
01:23:01,560 --> 01:23:02,280
Speaker 2: the process.

1476
01:23:02,600 --> 01:23:05,799
Speaker 1: How long will it take you to the danger? Element

1477
01:23:06,240 --> 01:23:08,679
Speaker 1: one getting past security?

1478
01:23:08,720 --> 01:23:12,880
Speaker 2: If there's any no, you some So sometimes in a

1479
01:23:12,960 --> 01:23:17,439
Speaker 2: train might be in a particular tunnel, you would know like, oh,

1480
01:23:17,520 --> 01:23:21,200
Speaker 2: there's a layup in between such and such a stop

1481
01:23:21,280 --> 01:23:24,719
Speaker 2: and a tunnel where such and such a line a

1482
01:23:24,760 --> 01:23:28,360
Speaker 2: train is being laid up during the rush out, So

1483
01:23:28,400 --> 01:23:31,080
Speaker 2: you'd be like, oh, you jump off the tracks, you

1484
01:23:31,200 --> 01:23:34,000
Speaker 2: go to the end of the platform, you may run

1485
01:23:34,080 --> 01:23:37,320
Speaker 2: through the tunnel to a certain experience or maybe go

1486
01:23:37,400 --> 01:23:40,240
Speaker 2: down or whatever, and the train would it would be there.

1487
01:23:40,640 --> 01:23:46,080
Speaker 2: You can hit that particular line there or the yard

1488
01:23:46,640 --> 01:23:50,040
Speaker 2: at either end of the where the trains end. Usually

1489
01:23:50,080 --> 01:23:54,120
Speaker 2: at the end of the train where the runner is

1490
01:23:54,200 --> 01:23:57,840
Speaker 2: on the map, there's typically a yard somewhere nearby where

1491
01:23:57,880 --> 01:24:01,360
Speaker 2: the trains go to the layup. Get made maintenance, et cetera,

1492
01:24:01,400 --> 01:24:01,840
Speaker 2: et cetera.

1493
01:24:02,120 --> 01:24:06,360
Speaker 1: All right, So my only education of the rivalry factor

1494
01:24:06,840 --> 01:24:10,280
Speaker 1: with a disrespect factor, of course, was B Street and

1495
01:24:10,320 --> 01:24:15,760
Speaker 1: the whole Spit The narrative beach Reet a story of

1496
01:24:15,800 --> 01:24:18,720
Speaker 1: a graffiti artist that's a lead here on this type

1497
01:24:18,880 --> 01:24:21,160
Speaker 1: that does these beautiful murals and then someone comes in

1498
01:24:21,200 --> 01:24:24,280
Speaker 1: behind them spray spit on top of the thing to

1499
01:24:24,360 --> 01:24:28,720
Speaker 1: disrespect them. Were there, what's going on? Was there jealousy.

1500
01:24:28,360 --> 01:24:32,040
Speaker 3: Amongst crews as far as like raging the great ruining

1501
01:24:32,320 --> 01:24:36,000
Speaker 3: art and the great look at that which was incredibly

1502
01:24:36,080 --> 01:24:40,519
Speaker 3: captured is a documentary called Style War, of course, and

1503
01:24:40,600 --> 01:24:41,680
Speaker 3: in Style.

1504
01:24:41,400 --> 01:24:44,800
Speaker 2: Wars, oh man, this was a big deal. Now I'm

1505
01:24:44,840 --> 01:24:48,240
Speaker 2: not actively bombing trains. That was the phrase we used

1506
01:24:48,240 --> 01:24:51,880
Speaker 2: for being aggressive bombing. But we was now have moved

1507
01:24:51,880 --> 01:24:54,759
Speaker 2: into the art. Well, that whole linkage that I envisioned

1508
01:24:54,880 --> 01:25:00,040
Speaker 2: is now happening. But during that period, there was a

1509
01:25:00,080 --> 01:25:07,040
Speaker 2: graffiti write a white kid name thank you, I'm sorry,

1510
01:25:07,360 --> 01:25:13,400
Speaker 2: thank you so much because I'm like always and Cap

1511
01:25:13,720 --> 01:25:16,200
Speaker 2: who was doing a type of graffiti known as throw ups.

1512
01:25:16,520 --> 01:25:19,240
Speaker 2: These are kind of bubble letters. You can do them quick.

1513
01:25:19,320 --> 01:25:21,360
Speaker 2: You do a quick outline and then you put the

1514
01:25:21,400 --> 01:25:24,120
Speaker 2: fat cap on and do a quick filling. You could

1515
01:25:24,120 --> 01:25:26,280
Speaker 2: do them real quick. They'd usually be just a couple

1516
01:25:26,280 --> 01:25:31,280
Speaker 2: of letters. His name was Cap Cap and he I

1517
01:25:31,320 --> 01:25:35,479
Speaker 2: think in the graffiti slang at the time, if you

1518
01:25:35,640 --> 01:25:39,320
Speaker 2: weren't nice, witted or respected, you were referred to as

1519
01:25:39,360 --> 01:25:42,240
Speaker 2: a toy. And if people saw you as a toy,

1520
01:25:42,640 --> 01:25:46,280
Speaker 2: they would sometimes go over you if you respected somebody,

1521
01:25:46,360 --> 01:25:48,920
Speaker 2: like if you was a graffiti right, Oh, that's that's

1522
01:25:49,000 --> 01:25:51,280
Speaker 2: quest love. He's major. You don't want to fuck with

1523
01:25:51,360 --> 01:25:53,680
Speaker 2: his name and try to put you on there. You

1524
01:25:53,680 --> 01:25:56,759
Speaker 2: would respect and not go over somebody's name. People didn't

1525
01:25:56,760 --> 01:25:58,640
Speaker 2: really have a lot of respect for Cap is the

1526
01:25:58,680 --> 01:26:03,519
Speaker 2: way I understood it. And he went ballistic and he

1527
01:26:03,840 --> 01:26:09,960
Speaker 2: started doing Cap throw ups over everybody. I don't think

1528
01:26:10,160 --> 01:26:13,640
Speaker 2: it was all the raised and some dudes that was

1529
01:26:13,680 --> 01:26:16,240
Speaker 2: doing graft that was kind of thugging it. Yo. Be

1530
01:26:16,680 --> 01:26:18,559
Speaker 2: when I run up on him, I'm gonna do this,

1531
01:26:18,640 --> 01:26:21,200
Speaker 2: that and the third yo. But this white boy was

1532
01:26:21,280 --> 01:26:24,560
Speaker 2: no joke, and so he was ready for that. He

1533
01:26:24,640 --> 01:26:28,960
Speaker 2: knew what was coming. So literally, while Henry and them

1534
01:26:29,000 --> 01:26:34,080
Speaker 2: are making this documentary Star Wars, they encountered him in

1535
01:26:34,120 --> 01:26:38,000
Speaker 2: the tunnel. Now He didn't show it on camera, but

1536
01:26:38,040 --> 01:26:42,040
Speaker 2: he let them know like, yo, bi, I'm ready forever.

1537
01:26:42,600 --> 01:26:45,080
Speaker 2: And he was when he when this was going on.

1538
01:26:45,160 --> 01:26:48,120
Speaker 2: So if you see the documentary Star Wars, it literally

1539
01:26:48,240 --> 01:26:52,599
Speaker 2: captures that moment. You see young graft guys talking about Yo,

1540
01:26:52,680 --> 01:26:54,880
Speaker 2: this cat went over this, he went over my piece.

1541
01:26:55,160 --> 01:26:57,920
Speaker 2: Even seeing this other dude kid that was real nice

1542
01:26:57,960 --> 01:27:00,080
Speaker 2: with the white kid in the bron scene does this

1543
01:27:00,160 --> 01:27:03,639
Speaker 2: incredible mural in the dock right after that, a cap

1544
01:27:03,920 --> 01:27:06,599
Speaker 2: over it like a beauty. I was like, yah, how.

1545
01:27:06,479 --> 01:27:09,800
Speaker 1: Long can you expect your piece to stay up before?

1546
01:27:10,439 --> 01:27:11,040
Speaker 2: Haha?

1547
01:27:11,080 --> 01:27:13,280
Speaker 1: First of all, with the city, like if a train

1548
01:27:13,320 --> 01:27:16,360
Speaker 1: gets tagged, would the city be like, all, it's right now,

1549
01:27:16,400 --> 01:27:18,080
Speaker 1: take it back to the yard and clean it.

1550
01:27:18,080 --> 01:27:21,920
Speaker 2: It was an ongoing program at that time. When trains

1551
01:27:21,920 --> 01:27:24,840
Speaker 2: were being cleaned, the city was spending millions of dollars

1552
01:27:25,439 --> 01:27:29,800
Speaker 2: fighting graffiti. The mayor at the time, Mayor Cochage, was

1553
01:27:29,920 --> 01:27:34,759
Speaker 2: planning to put wolves and attack dogs in the subway yards.

1554
01:27:34,960 --> 01:27:37,840
Speaker 2: It was it was pretty heavy duty. It was the

1555
01:27:38,080 --> 01:27:41,760
Speaker 2: scourge of the city. It was hated. It was just

1556
01:27:42,439 --> 01:27:45,000
Speaker 2: I mean, it was everywhere, and I'm not trying to

1557
01:27:45,000 --> 01:27:47,280
Speaker 2: say that all of it was art if you will,

1558
01:27:48,200 --> 01:27:51,840
Speaker 2: But man, it was nobody really acknowledging like, well that

1559
01:27:51,880 --> 01:27:54,040
Speaker 2: went over there, it's pretty incredible. Look but the guy

1560
01:27:54,120 --> 01:27:57,360
Speaker 2: painted and look at this one over here. And so

1561
01:27:57,479 --> 01:27:59,599
Speaker 2: that was the general climate at the time. How long

1562
01:27:59,640 --> 01:28:02,040
Speaker 2: could it for you, Like I said, well, it depends.

1563
01:28:02,040 --> 01:28:05,400
Speaker 2: So once again, you could do a piece that might

1564
01:28:05,479 --> 01:28:08,360
Speaker 2: run for months, or you could do a piece that

1565
01:28:08,439 --> 01:28:12,839
Speaker 2: may go into the buff. Maybe that particular train was scheduled,

1566
01:28:12,840 --> 01:28:14,920
Speaker 2: it might go into the buff right away. So what

1567
01:28:15,200 --> 01:28:20,040
Speaker 2: began to happen was Henry Chaffont, who along with Martha Cooper,

1568
01:28:20,120 --> 01:28:24,680
Speaker 2: became these incredible documentarians of this work going on. The

1569
01:28:25,600 --> 01:28:28,559
Speaker 2: graffiti riders knew these guys and they would as soon

1570
01:28:28,600 --> 01:28:30,960
Speaker 2: as you do a train, you would hit because most

1571
01:28:31,160 --> 01:28:35,200
Speaker 2: graffiti kids, as we all were, had a bullshit one

1572
01:28:35,320 --> 01:28:38,840
Speaker 2: ten instamatic with a pop up flash. That's all we

1573
01:28:38,880 --> 01:28:42,280
Speaker 2: had as kids. Henry had official thirty five millimeter camera,

1574
01:28:42,400 --> 01:28:45,840
Speaker 2: as did Martha Cooper, and they became really a part

1575
01:28:45,880 --> 01:28:49,080
Speaker 2: of the scene that would do graffiti. Riders would hit

1576
01:28:49,080 --> 01:28:51,639
Speaker 2: them right away, Yo, I just did a train, It's

1577
01:28:51,640 --> 01:28:54,320
Speaker 2: going to be on this sunny side. So they would

1578
01:28:54,360 --> 01:28:56,640
Speaker 2: know what's you would let them know what side they

1579
01:28:56,680 --> 01:28:59,000
Speaker 2: can catch it with the sun on it, and they could.

1580
01:28:59,080 --> 01:29:01,920
Speaker 2: They would run out to really photographed these trains as

1581
01:29:01,960 --> 01:29:05,760
Speaker 2: they first left the yard after being painted, so oftentimes

1582
01:29:05,920 --> 01:29:09,240
Speaker 2: they would get a fresh shot b for the windows

1583
01:29:09,240 --> 01:29:12,080
Speaker 2: would get buffed first, but if you got the whole

1584
01:29:12,160 --> 01:29:15,720
Speaker 2: car first. So they now have this incredible documentation of

1585
01:29:15,920 --> 01:29:20,320
Speaker 2: hundreds and hundreds of various trains through that period that

1586
01:29:20,439 --> 01:29:22,960
Speaker 2: have been documented in many books. They're featured in the

1587
01:29:23,000 --> 01:29:26,400
Speaker 2: documentary Star Wars. There's a book Subway Art, and a

1588
01:29:26,400 --> 01:29:30,400
Speaker 2: couple of other books came out that became the textbook

1589
01:29:30,640 --> 01:29:35,400
Speaker 2: for people that got into graffiti around the world, Like

1590
01:29:35,479 --> 01:29:38,800
Speaker 2: they would all get blew my mind and got accidentally

1591
01:29:39,120 --> 01:29:39,559
Speaker 2: like some.

1592
01:29:39,520 --> 01:29:41,080
Speaker 1: Of the greatest pieces I've ever seen.

1593
01:29:41,760 --> 01:29:47,360
Speaker 2: It's d yeah, Italy, It's remarkable. I mean look, I

1594
01:29:47,360 --> 01:29:50,640
Speaker 2: mean I'm a part of the culture. I wasn't the

1595
01:29:50,680 --> 01:29:54,960
Speaker 2: most prolific or I've never claimed to be that. But

1596
01:29:55,240 --> 01:29:57,320
Speaker 2: sometime when I'm traveling, I'm in Europe and I'm on

1597
01:29:57,360 --> 01:30:00,000
Speaker 2: a euro train or whatever, and I see graph everywhere,

1598
01:30:00,920 --> 01:30:04,120
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh boy, I can't believe. It's not like

1599
01:30:04,240 --> 01:30:07,320
Speaker 2: my fault. But I definitely helped you planning the seed

1600
01:30:07,520 --> 01:30:12,680
Speaker 2: definitely planning a lot of seeds that got beyond expectation.

1601
01:30:12,840 --> 01:30:17,080
Speaker 2: How the seeds bleue and got planted and germinated all

1602
01:30:17,120 --> 01:30:17,759
Speaker 2: over the world.

1603
01:30:20,640 --> 01:30:22,639
Speaker 1: All right, we haven't done this in a long time,

1604
01:30:22,680 --> 01:30:25,360
Speaker 1: but we have to stop the episode right here, all right,

1605
01:30:25,800 --> 01:30:28,799
Speaker 1: by by Freddy and I spoke for over two hours.

1606
01:30:28,920 --> 01:30:31,240
Speaker 1: You know how that gets. So come back next week.

1607
01:30:31,479 --> 01:30:33,760
Speaker 1: I want you to check your podcast feed for part two,

1608
01:30:34,320 --> 01:30:36,880
Speaker 1: where we get into wild style and your own TV

1609
01:30:37,040 --> 01:30:40,280
Speaker 1: rap years and talk about his directing music videos and

1610
01:30:40,400 --> 01:30:44,320
Speaker 1: his book. Everybody's Fly is out now. I brought my copy.

1611
01:30:44,560 --> 01:30:49,519
Speaker 1: Make sure you get yours. If you dug this episode,

1612
01:30:49,560 --> 01:30:52,799
Speaker 1: please tell somebody you think might dig it in the meantime,

1613
01:30:53,280 --> 01:30:58,639
Speaker 1: Get you next week, all right. Quest Loup shows hosted

1614
01:30:58,680 --> 01:31:03,120
Speaker 1: by me A mere Quest Love Thompson. Executive producers are

1615
01:31:03,160 --> 01:31:09,440
Speaker 1: Sean g Brian Calhoun and Me. Produced by Brittany Benjamin

1616
01:31:09,640 --> 01:31:15,599
Speaker 1: and Jake Payne. Produced for iHeart by Noel Brown, edited

1617
01:31:15,640 --> 01:31:22,000
Speaker 1: by Alex Conroy. iHeart video support by Mark Canton, Logos

1618
01:31:22,040 --> 01:31:27,719
Speaker 1: graphics and animation by Nick Padaloi. Additional support by Lance Coban.

1619
01:31:29,280 --> 01:31:33,519
Speaker 1: Special thanks to Kathy Brown. Special thanks to Sugar Steve

1620
01:31:33,600 --> 01:31:38,280
Speaker 1: Mandel Please subscribe, rate, review, and share The Quest Love

1621
01:31:38,360 --> 01:31:41,600
Speaker 1: Show wherever you stream your podcasts, and make sure you

1622
01:31:41,640 --> 01:31:47,920
Speaker 1: follow us on socials that's at q LS. Check out

1623
01:31:48,040 --> 01:31:51,280
Speaker 1: hundreds and hundreds of QLs episodes, including the Quest Love

1624
01:31:51,320 --> 01:31:56,840
Speaker 1: Supreme shows in our podcast archives. Quest Love Show is

1625
01:31:56,840 --> 01:32:00,799
Speaker 1: a production of iHeart Radio.