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Speaker 1: Cool Media.

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Speaker 2: Hello sixteenth minute listeners, Happy holidays. This is Jamie. Do

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Speaker 2: I have your attention? Please keep listening. Quick thing right

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Speaker 2: at the top of this show, I am going on

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Speaker 2: tour with my.

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Speaker 3: Other weekly podcast, The Bechdel Cast.

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Speaker 2: If you're a listener of the show, it's an intersectional

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Speaker 2: feminist podcast that I co host with my friend Caitlin Durante,

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Speaker 2: and we're going to be doing a few tour dates

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Speaker 2: in January. So if you live in Los Angeles, San Francisco,

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Speaker 2: or Portland, Oregon, we are going to be in your town,

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Speaker 2: and even if you're not, there's going to be live

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Speaker 2: stream tickets available.

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Speaker 3: So if you're a.

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Speaker 2: Fan of that show or you just want to be

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Speaker 2: weird in parisocial, those are the places to do it.

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Speaker 2: We're going to be in Los Angeles on January nineteenth

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Speaker 2: at Dynasty Typewriter. That's going to be a variety show

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Speaker 2: with some of our favorite past guests of the show

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Speaker 2: and just a celebration of the show in general. You

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Speaker 2: can get tickets live if you're in the area or

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Speaker 2: live streamed.

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Speaker 3: Then we will be in San.

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Speaker 2: Francisco at San Francisco Sketch Fest on January twenty third

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Speaker 2: covering Titanic. We did something called the Shrek Tannic Tour

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Speaker 2: last year, which is I know, brilliant inspired, nothing better

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Speaker 2: than that, where we will cover either Titanic or Shrek.

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Speaker 2: There are no live stream tickets for that, so if

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Speaker 2: you're in the San Francisco area, that's the only way

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Speaker 2: to see that show. And finally, we're ending our mini

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Speaker 2: tour in Portland, Oregon, home of Sophie Litterman, and we

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Speaker 2: will be covering Shrek at the Curious Comedy Theater on

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Speaker 2: January twenty sixth in Portland and there will be live

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Speaker 2: stream tickets for that available. There may be some special guests,

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Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know, come and see. So yes,

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Speaker 2: if you've been listening to the Manuscare mini series, I

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Speaker 2: really really appreciate it.

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Speaker 3: And if you want to come and hang in chat

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Speaker 3: Bachtel Cash shows are always super super fun.

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Speaker 2: Hope to see their happy holidays.

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Speaker 3: Here's the show. Joy stay you.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to sixteenth Minute, the podcast where we talk

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Speaker 2: to the Internet's characters of the day to see what

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Speaker 2: their moment was like for them and what it says

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Speaker 2: about us and the Internet. Set not today one last time,

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Speaker 2: because this is our final installment of our into the Manisphere,

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Speaker 2: and folks, it's been a journey. We've checked out the

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Speaker 2: origins of the Manisphere, mind you, not a history of

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Speaker 2: misogyny or I would truly never sleep again, but rather

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Speaker 2: the history of these organized male supremacist groups coming to

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Speaker 2: prominence in response to gains of not just feminist movements,

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Speaker 2: but virtually any progressive civil rights movement. Like Seasons one

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Speaker 2: and two have lost, which are the only ones I've

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Speaker 2: watched so far.

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Speaker 3: It's all connected.

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Speaker 2: We followed these male supremacist movements onto the Internet, where

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Speaker 2: they split into subgroups performing their own version of freeform

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Speaker 2: jazz misogyny. The in cells they pick up artists, the

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Speaker 2: men's rights activists, the men going their own way, and

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Speaker 2: all of the subvariants therein. We've followed them to forums,

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Speaker 2: into radio, and eventually YouTube and podcasts. We've looked at

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Speaker 2: the historical third and fourth wave feminist touchstones they've responded

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Speaker 2: to in the crimes and harassment movements they've turned into

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Speaker 2: news stories amplified by algorithms. The Manisphere is absolutely still recruiting,

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Speaker 2: if reports from the last.

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Speaker 3: Few years are to be believed.

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Speaker 2: To kids as young as ten years old. The more

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Speaker 2: I learned about it, the more I really do feel

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Speaker 2: like it is an important space to talk about, and

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Speaker 2: I think for parents and teachers especially a space to

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Speaker 2: have a basic understanding of to as my guest FT

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Speaker 2: signifier expanded on last week, to be able to recognize

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Speaker 2: when young people are engaging with it. I'm not suggesting

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Speaker 2: there should be a moral panic that means that nuking

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Speaker 2: the Manisphere will solve the problem. The Manisphere is an

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Speaker 2: extension of the problem that systemic failures have reached the

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Speaker 2: point that grifters are able to take advantage of unregulated

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Speaker 2: Internet spaces and a screen addicted population to spread ideas

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Speaker 2: that are far more profitable than any progressive or leftist

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Speaker 2: idea tends to be. The Manisphere is well funded, and

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Speaker 2: so even if you don't engage with it directly, it's

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Speaker 2: more likely than not that it's affected you at some point,

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Speaker 2: whether we're talking inside or outside the Manisphere. The Overton

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Speaker 2: window of how we talk about these systemic issues and

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Speaker 2: ignore others has been reduced to phrases like the Internet

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Speaker 2: isn't real life, which is interesting because there's no shortage

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Speaker 2: of young people who have taken their own lives after

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Speaker 2: being bullied online that clearly felt very differently, and it's

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Speaker 2: no mistake that this often dismissed phenomenon is becoming increasingly

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Speaker 2: prevalent in black youth, in girls, and in queer youth.

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Speaker 2: More than one thing has to be true here. The

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Speaker 2: Internet and the real world are very clearly not the

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Speaker 2: same place. But to downplay the tremendous influence one has

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Speaker 2: on the other dooms you to be an eternal boomer.

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Speaker 2: It pushed away young people and it does not serve

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Speaker 2: the young people in your life. But what I've really

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Speaker 2: hoped to stress through this series isn't just the idea

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Speaker 2: that the manisphere is a space that's boosted and further normalized,

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Speaker 2: mask off hatred toward not just women, but queer people,

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Speaker 2: trans people, poor people, and anyone who isn't white. It's

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Speaker 2: a symptom of late capitalism. But when it comes down

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Speaker 2: to it, the way that the manisphere affects you and

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Speaker 2: to what degree it affects you, has everything to do

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Speaker 2: with who you are as an individual. And so to

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Speaker 2: close this series out, I wanted to share some of

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Speaker 2: those perspectives, and thankfully many listeners reached out who have

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Speaker 2: either interacted with or been fully pulled into this space.

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Speaker 2: In the past, I've talked to people who have exited

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Speaker 2: the manisphere over a period of three decades. I've talked

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Speaker 2: to people who have studied and been kind of traumatized

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Speaker 2: by it relatable, and I talked to a young teacher

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Speaker 2: who's just trying to figure out how to speak to

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Speaker 2: there's students about it without being shut out entirely. So

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Speaker 2: for the rest of this episode, I'm going to let

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Speaker 2: their stories take center, and because some names have been changed,

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Speaker 2: let's get to know their voices.

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Speaker 3: First.

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Speaker 2: A non binary person socialized as a man who entered

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Speaker 2: the manisphere well over two decades ago.

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Speaker 4: Tom, I'm forty five and yeah, I don't know. I

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Speaker 4: have four kids. Part of what drew me into the

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Speaker 4: father's rights bullshit was I kind of got pulled into

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Speaker 4: that by my bitterness over my divorce and my anger

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Speaker 4: around what I perceived was at my mistreatment by thesodial

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Speaker 4: and child sport systems.

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Speaker 2: This is Alyssa, a leading researcher on in cells.

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Speaker 5: Hi, my name is Alissa Davis, and I am a

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Speaker 5: third year PhD student in sociology at Vanderbilt University.

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Speaker 2: This is Arna, a German Man in his late twenty

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Speaker 2: who entered the Manisphere after a year abroad in the

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Speaker 2: US in the early twenty tens.

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Speaker 6: I'm Anna. I am twenty nine years old and from Germany.

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Speaker 6: I am a massive student in psychology and I definitely

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Speaker 6: was in the Manosphere for a while. And yeah, I

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Speaker 6: got out of it. Now, am I seeing Flea or Casper?

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Speaker 6: I know this might be?

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Speaker 7: This is Caasler.

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Speaker 2: Here's Isaiah, who's in their early twenties and grew up

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Speaker 2: deeply entrenched in Christian Conservatism.

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Speaker 8: My name is Isaiah, and I'm currently a student, and

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Speaker 8: I identify as queer, neurodivergent, among other things. And yeah,

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Speaker 8: I survived the Manisphere.

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Speaker 2: And finally, Paige, who was a non binary former high

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Speaker 2: school teacher in Texas.

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Speaker 9: My name is Paige. I am a former high school

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Speaker 9: science teacher. I started teaching it would have been twenty

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Speaker 9: twenty two at that point, kind of a remedial physics

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Speaker 9: chemistry class. So I had all nine through twelve.

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Speaker 2: And when we come back, we talk to the survivors

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Speaker 2: of the Manisphere. Welcome back to sixteenth minute. Has anyone

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Speaker 2: else seen this incredible six hour long movie? I've been

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Speaker 2: hearing about called Santa University. Let me know, I hear

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Speaker 2: it's amazing and that the woman who wrote it is

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Speaker 2: really beautiful. All right, let's get into it. These interviews

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Speaker 2: have been edited for time and clarity, and here are

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Speaker 2: the expats of the manisphere.

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Speaker 7: And about when did you leave these spaces for good?

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Speaker 4: Let's say around two thousand and eight, Okay, it was

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Speaker 4: nine ish. I was in my twenties, and you know,

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Speaker 4: I wasn't really you know, aware of the shifting window

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Speaker 4: of politics going further to the right. I was a

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Speaker 4: rock against Bush while also like accepting this like cesspool

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Speaker 4: of monsters. So it was very much based around how

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Speaker 4: father's rights was about, like fathers don't have access to

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Speaker 4: as robust child support needs and they don't often qualify

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Speaker 4: for public assistance stuff, and family court judges were biased

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Speaker 4: against fathers and that sort of rhetoric. The problem that

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Speaker 4: as I see, you know, as I eventually saw it,

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Speaker 4: was that problem was coming from inside the house. You know.

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Speaker 4: It wasn't that you know, women were poisoning the system

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Speaker 4: against us. It was that the system as fucked up

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Speaker 4: because of misogyny.

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Speaker 5: As you said, it's been around for like a while,

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Speaker 5: so I guess I'm more in like the modern era

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Speaker 5: of in cells host reddit bands. I actually started my

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Speaker 5: research for my master's thesis. I was originally going to

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Speaker 5: use a subreddit that was called I think it was

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Speaker 5: brain Cells, and in cels had gotten banned in twenty seventeen.

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Speaker 5: This was twenty twenty one. Brain Cells was still around,

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Speaker 5: but right as I was about to start collecting data

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Speaker 5: for my thesis, brain Cells got banned, and so I

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Speaker 5: was like, oh no, what am I going to do?

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Speaker 5: And so then I found, in particular our slash in

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Speaker 5: cell Exit, which mainly focuses on men who have I

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Speaker 5: guess identified themselves as in cells in the past, expressing

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Speaker 5: a desire to leave the group, which then led me

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Speaker 5: to kind of these other spaces that since in cels

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Speaker 5: have gotten pushed out of, I think the sites that

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Speaker 5: they originally sprung up on, which is Reddit in four chan.

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Speaker 5: Now they're going into different areas of the Internet and

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Speaker 5: creating their own websites and forums that function very similarly

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Speaker 5: to Reddit. In one of the papers that I published

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Speaker 5: along with my co author had their Keechrie. There's kind

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Speaker 5: of this idea of free spaces that has been studied

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Speaker 5: among scholars who look at extremist groups, and these free

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Speaker 5: spaces function as places where individuals who are members of

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Speaker 5: extremist groups can can move into and are isolated from

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Speaker 5: the mainstream while also having I guess, the opportunity to

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Speaker 5: continue to foster these ideologies. So in that respect, they're

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Speaker 5: really hard to get out of because you're insulated entirely

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Speaker 5: and the only people you talk to are people who

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Speaker 5: I think agree and support those ideological functions. The danger

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Speaker 5: of having like such an insulated community is that it

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Speaker 5: does become an echo chamber, and it does become I

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Speaker 5: like what you said, like a death cult essentially, where

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Speaker 5: they're simultaneously each other's only like support system. But then

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Speaker 5: also that support system is so negative and so harmful.

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Speaker 6: I think it is decent to mention here. I was

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Speaker 6: undiagnosed ADHD autism. It's a STIL definitely had negative experiences

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Speaker 6: as in bullying when I got to like, let's say,

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Speaker 6: middle school, Germany system is a little different, but I

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Speaker 6: still had some friends that I brought over from like

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Speaker 6: elementary school when we went to the same class, but

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Speaker 6: I definitely was no longer as outgoing as fun and

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Speaker 6: I also struggled with just social interactions. If I am

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Speaker 6: thinking back on it, I am still cringing hard on

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Speaker 6: the things that I did. Yeah, so internet it was

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Speaker 6: very German focused. Now, I did to say that, like

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Speaker 6: the internet is ninety five percent in English. I don't

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Speaker 6: know on the actual percentage, but five's wise. That sounds

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Speaker 6: about right. Yeah, before getting into the minosphere, before really

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Speaker 6: discovering the Internet came through my exchange here that I did,

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Speaker 6: which would be junior year in the US to Florida.

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Speaker 6: Actually I remember that I was told about Reddit, but

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Speaker 6: I was back then still nine gag kid for like internet.

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Speaker 6: Oh yeah, YouTube, like filter Franco. I think I discovered

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Speaker 6: what are other people? Because I don't watch them anymore.

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Speaker 6: They're kind of slipping my mind, PAUDYEPI was back then

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Speaker 6: twenty eleven, twenty twelve.

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Speaker 7: That sort of developed when you were in the US for.

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Speaker 6: A year, Absolutely exactly, And so I kept that. And

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Speaker 6: that's why I also kept by English, because I stayed

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Speaker 6: connected and like kept developing my English online. Even though

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Speaker 6: I didn't I was more of a lurker. I still

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Speaker 6: got content because there's way more people who speak English

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Speaker 6: and way more content in English, you will also the

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Speaker 6: top notch things that the extream of the crop will

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Speaker 6: still outrank what you would find in Germany.

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Speaker 9: I am a creature of the Internet, unfortunately, and you know,

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Speaker 9: I had seen like all of the TikTok's YouTube video essays, everybody,

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Speaker 9: look at this nonsense, this is bad. Before I was teaching,

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Speaker 9: I was a rock climbing coach and I had kids

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Speaker 9: as young as fourth or fifth grade trying to tell

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Speaker 9: me about Andrew Tate and that that was disturbing.

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Speaker 2: So I think that there is a level of like,

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Speaker 2: if you didn't grow up adjacent to understanding what these

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Speaker 2: spaces are, it can kind of go over your head.

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Speaker 9: And like, it was really interesting, honestly being in that

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Speaker 9: position because I don't know that I was the youngest

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Speaker 9: teacher at my school, but like, damn near it. Some

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Speaker 9: of my kids understood that, you know, I'm not that

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Speaker 9: much older than them. A lot of them did not.

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Speaker 9: I felt like I was the only person that saw

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Speaker 9: that the emperor had no clothes.

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Speaker 8: So I was like born and raised in evangelical Christian household.

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Speaker 8: It was like not a lot of exposure, and I

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Speaker 8: remember kind of having this thing called the Internet or

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Speaker 8: like I think YouTube in like early twenty ten and

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Speaker 8: just being like not able to have any access to

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Speaker 8: like internet and having very weird media access rules within

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Speaker 8: my family, but then having my friends as actually going

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Speaker 8: to like public school in Vancouver. It was interesting to

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Speaker 8: see some of those, like I want to say, like

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Speaker 8: cooler kids, but the kids who have access to the internet.

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Speaker 2: You said, you you sort of the algorithm, was guy

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Speaker 2: to give more towards the red pill pipeline.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, some of that like red pill black pill type content.

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Speaker 8: I do want to preface that, guy, you was never

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Speaker 8: really deep in it. But what I will say is

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Speaker 8: when you are surrounded by evangelical Christians and you're surrounded

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Speaker 8: by the space that's very purity culture, and then it's

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Speaker 8: reinforced with what content is being produced online and what

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Speaker 8: your friends are watching and what they're suggesting, and how

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Speaker 8: that media is affecting it. I really experienced like the

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Speaker 8: manisphere from two different perspectives, and that was really vicarious.

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Speaker 8: Lead through my friends and through my social interactions.

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Speaker 9: The one that I remember this kid that was in

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Speaker 9: one of the medial classes that I taught, and he

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Speaker 9: was definitely a bit higher achieving than at least the

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Speaker 9: other students in that class period, and I usually left

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Speaker 9: him alone to his devices because he would turn his

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Speaker 9: work in and I was like, whatever, you were the

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Speaker 9: least of my worries. But at one point I started

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Speaker 9: looking at his work and I could tell that he

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Speaker 9: was just phoning it in whenever I was talking to

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Speaker 9: him about it, and I was like, man, you just

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Speaker 9: got to put in like a little more effort. I

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Speaker 9: know you are better than this. His argument was that

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Speaker 9: he didn't really care to put a whole lot of

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Speaker 9: effort in as long as he could like play football

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Speaker 9: like he wanted to and whatever, because he was going

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Speaker 9: to graduate and then make a bunch of money with

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Speaker 9: this thing that like Andrew Tait had been talking about

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Speaker 9: bitcoin and stuff. It was like that kind of thinking

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Speaker 9: where it's like I don't have to do the same

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Speaker 9: things that ever everyone else here does and act the

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Speaker 9: same because I have this cheak code that you know,

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Speaker 9: this man on the internet gave me.

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Speaker 6: I remember when I was in Florida, there was a

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Speaker 6: moment where, even after I've thought that I redeveloped myself,

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Speaker 6: that I'm now extroverted, why are girls not interested in me?

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Speaker 6: And so I also were able to ask these questions

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Speaker 6: down in English, I mentioned dread. I found our slash seduction,

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Speaker 6: for example, and I think I discovered the simple pickup

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Speaker 6: YouTube channel who are like, oh, you know, you just

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Speaker 6: need to go out there and like talk to people

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Speaker 6: and fake do you make it? And like have a

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Speaker 6: thirty day challenge in which you need to just be

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Speaker 6: extreme and like have no more, no shame and like

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Speaker 6: that to just break that barrier that you're afraid of.

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Speaker 6: And I was unable to do so. Like I was

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Speaker 6: watching those videos, I'm like, yeah, that sounds great. I

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Speaker 6: know I should do this for a month. And I

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Speaker 6: never took the train into a hamper.

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Speaker 2: Two.

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Speaker 6: The seeds were planted for why don't girls like me?

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Speaker 6: What is wrong with me? Something must be wrong with me?

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Speaker 6: And I think that's interesting because later on, when I

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Speaker 6: got closer into the manosphere, I changed from like it's

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Speaker 6: wrong with me to like, oh, no, the reason are

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Speaker 6: actually equitman, It's not you, it's clearly half of the population.

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Speaker 6: Absolutely that must be it.

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Speaker 5: If you're moving into a space that continues to kind

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Speaker 5: of foster this echo chamber ideology, extremism becomes more and

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Speaker 5: more rampant or apparent so my more recent research where

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Speaker 5: I've actually gone on some of the more extreme insult sites,

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Speaker 5: I was seeing things that were horrific for me to

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Speaker 5: even view, like acts of violence that were being endorsed

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Speaker 5: or committed, or videos or being shared, as well as

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Speaker 5: advocating for the self harm of the insults themselves, so

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Speaker 5: suicidal ideation, a lot of self hatred, and that kind

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Speaker 5: of being endorsed and supported by members of the community,

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Speaker 5: this overwhelming ideology of like, you cannot leave this group

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Speaker 5: because this is who you are biologically.

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Speaker 6: But really what got me into it was I started

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Speaker 6: my university, struggled a little bit to make friends. Also,

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Speaker 6: it's despite being neurodivergent, if you get a degree in math,

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Speaker 6: you will meet more in your divertin people, while nowadays

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Speaker 6: I vibe a lot with people who are in your divertu.

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Speaker 6: I struggled to make friends there. So I went to

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Speaker 6: like an orientation and then there was a woman of

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Speaker 6: a few years my senior who was interested because I

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Speaker 6: sat there with a chessboard and like not talking to people,

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Speaker 6: and so she decided to sit down. We started playing chess,

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Speaker 6: like kept talking throughout that evening and like kept contact

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Speaker 6: for another week. It's a truism or a trope that

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Speaker 6: men don't pick up on hints from women. Yeah, one

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Speaker 6: hundred percent. In my case we started dating. But also

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Speaker 6: she was very much interested in the red pill. She

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Speaker 6: even sent me like I think and my first week

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Speaker 6: APDF on a book that would translate to the praise

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Speaker 6: of sexism. You know how there is benevolent sexism and

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Speaker 6: hostile sexism. I forgot who the researchers are who developed

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Speaker 6: that idea, but there's those two types, and it's much

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Speaker 6: more in praise of like benevolent sexism and like, oh no, okay,

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Speaker 6: women definitely won the trad wife lifestyle is having my

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Speaker 6: first kiss at nineteen. If that is what my girlfriend believes,

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Speaker 6: then obviously that must be true. That must be the reason. Also,

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Speaker 6: it explains so much if I already struggled for like

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Speaker 6: why don't let me? Oh, the answer is hypergrima. I

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Speaker 6: just didn't present myself.

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Speaker 2: Well.

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Speaker 6: Now, does that already go into the face of how

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Speaker 6: she approached me when I was a loner on a chessboard.

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Speaker 6: Absolutely did I think about that?

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Speaker 4: Nope?

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Speaker 7: Do we know how she got there?

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Speaker 6: Hard were her friends who probably discovered it, and she

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Speaker 6: was much more tomboyish, so she had much more male

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Speaker 6: friends and more like, oh, I'm different to other girls.

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Speaker 6: I'm not like at the girls almost sure, right, which

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Speaker 6: was like early twenty ten, I think was much more

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Speaker 6: of a common you know, to bring out the site students.

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Speaker 6: We all fall for confirmation bias. We are. If you're

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Speaker 6: invested and you're doing that in a social thing, of

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Speaker 6: course you're going to see it that way. To a

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Speaker 6: certain extent, she already had a previous social circle that

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Speaker 6: was interested in these things, and so I think that's

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Speaker 6: probably how she got into it.

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Speaker 7: I'm also curious how these spaces relate to masculinity and

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Speaker 7: you navigating your own gender.

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Speaker 6: Does that intersect at all?

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Speaker 4: I have always been queer, you know, I've known I

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Speaker 4: was bisexual since I was in college. My queerness of

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Speaker 4: gender didn't come about till the pandemic. You know, obviously

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Speaker 4: I'm very masculine presenting in retrospect and you mentioning that,

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Speaker 4: you know it does it was probably pretty performative. There's

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Speaker 4: a lot of aggression, performative rage, if that makes sense.

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Speaker 4: I would feel this anger right about perceived slights against

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Speaker 4: me in these you know, online spaces, you know, I

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Speaker 4: would vent about this, but I would almost play it

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Speaker 4: up to like get sympathy from these other angry men,

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Speaker 4: the very like jocular, like virtual backslapping, like you know,

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Speaker 4: it's okay, buddy. There's this like sort of like social

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Speaker 4: incentive to exaggerate your anger and your feelings to get

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Speaker 4: that false camaraderie. You know, men are socialized to be

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Speaker 4: so lone wolfy and solitary, but like that's not how

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Speaker 4: people are. We need community and we need people, and

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Speaker 4: we need to have a place where we can feel things.

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Speaker 4: And when the only feeling that's allowed is that rage,

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Speaker 4: that you know, we kind of go all in and

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Speaker 4: end up in this horrific display of anger, age and violence.

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Speaker 2: I'm curious, like how you would approach talking to students

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Speaker 2: who had clearly taken this in.

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Speaker 9: That was really hard being a queer teacher in Texas, right,

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Speaker 9: And I mean I wasn't even out, I didn't use

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Speaker 9: like my proper pronouns or anything, but like I if

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Speaker 9: you interact with me for more than a few minutes,

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Speaker 9: like it's written on my face. I definitely had quite

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Speaker 9: a few kids that I don't know for sure that

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Speaker 9: they like, you know, specifically fell within that community space

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Speaker 9: of the manosphere and everything, but they had a lot

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Speaker 9: of the same attitudes. The way they would argue and stuff.

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Speaker 9: They would definitely push the queer issue if the opportunity

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Speaker 9: came up. I had a really big conversation with a

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Speaker 9: couple of my classes about referring to women and girls

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Speaker 9: as females. I don't know if it's just like being

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Speaker 9: in the part of the South that I'm in that

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Speaker 9: it's like super super common. It feels like a bit

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Speaker 9: more than at least whenever I was in school, and

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Speaker 9: it really bothers me. It feels a little dehumanizing. Obviously,

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Speaker 9: I would always just provide a little bit of pushback.

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Speaker 9: If I were to come down like super duper hard

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Speaker 9: on them and be like, hey, you can't do this

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Speaker 9: in my classroom, then they have the bad guy, you know,

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Speaker 9: coming down on them and oppressing them, and that can

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Speaker 9: reinforce I almost phrased it as like a the same

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Speaker 9: like cheat code thing, like hey, this is going to

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Speaker 9: take you far in life. Don't do that. Sometimes it works.

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Speaker 9: It would be like why, and then other girls in

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Speaker 9: my class would chime in and be like, well, it

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Speaker 9: feels like a nature documentary thing. It feels like, you know,

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Speaker 9: you're not actually acknowledging us as people like you're acknowledging

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Speaker 9: us as specimens. I feel like providing that opportunity for

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Speaker 9: them to hear how that is affecting the population that ostensibly,

436
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:57,879
Speaker 9: you know, most of these boys are interested in. You know,

437
00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:01,840
Speaker 9: sometimes it works. Sometimes they were just like, nah, y'all

438
00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:04,040
Speaker 9: don't know what you're talking about. You're just sensitive. But

439
00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:06,240
Speaker 9: the conversation is worth it for a couple of kids

440
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:07,359
Speaker 9: that are gonna get it.

441
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 7: Going deeper into these spaces. Was neurodivergen something that was

442
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:13,920
Speaker 7: discussed openly.

443
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 6: I don't think so, not at all. I think it was.

444
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:18,640
Speaker 6: I mean, I will also say that I was much

445
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 6: more of a lurker as well, So like from there,

446
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:24,359
Speaker 6: I went then to like r Slash the Red Pill

447
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 6: and went to top of All and discovered that most

448
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,320
Speaker 6: posts are from twenty sixteen twenty seventeen, which is when

449
00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:33,600
Speaker 6: I was online. So interestingly enough, I was there when

450
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:36,520
Speaker 6: it to a certain extent, I guess peaked. Now. That's

451
00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:40,560
Speaker 6: probably because nowadays it's quarantine, so it's not going to

452
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:44,640
Speaker 6: be shown to the front page anymore. It is more

453
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:48,359
Speaker 6: restricted and I bet that that means there's less draw

454
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:50,600
Speaker 6: to it, or there used to be, at least in

455
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:52,919
Speaker 6: the red pull space, three main people and they were

456
00:26:52,920 --> 00:27:01,240
Speaker 6: the three rs. That is Rolo, that is Roysy and Rashie.

457
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:05,399
Speaker 6: I think I think it's rashbe is how he was written.

458
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,439
Speaker 6: I'd have to look that up again. And they were

459
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:11,399
Speaker 6: very prolific and people were reading aspects of them.

460
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:12,080
Speaker 5: Now.

461
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 6: Roolo Tamasi had books that came out and I remember

462
00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:19,040
Speaker 6: buying them and listening to them through audible. That was

463
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:22,880
Speaker 6: the Rational Male, and I know there's a trology even well.

464
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:26,760
Speaker 6: Another cringing moment is I gifted my uncle that book

465
00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 6: like right around that time as well. That one's also

466
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:31,840
Speaker 6: talking about like you should spin plates, you should not

467
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:35,119
Speaker 6: be emotionally invested in women. So the idea is like

468
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:37,159
Speaker 6: spinning plates, you should always have at least too so

469
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:39,960
Speaker 6: you don't get too much invested in game and social

470
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:45,080
Speaker 6: swellness your wealth of course, and your physical looks as well.

471
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:49,920
Speaker 6: So there it very easily came. Like I was familiar

472
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:52,520
Speaker 6: with in cell communities and had I not had a girlfriend,

473
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:54,680
Speaker 6: I think I would have gotten much closer to in cel.

474
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:57,880
Speaker 7: You also mentioned that you got into Jordan Pearson.

475
00:27:57,960 --> 00:27:59,399
Speaker 2: Could you tell me a little bit about that.

476
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:01,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, it sparked about him for you.

477
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:05,920
Speaker 6: I think that one was the algorithm with like YouTube

478
00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:09,880
Speaker 6: And yeah, I will mention that I broke up with

479
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:14,200
Speaker 6: my girlfriend early twenty sixteen. I think at that point

480
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:19,360
Speaker 6: I no longer have like the social support for lack

481
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:22,199
Speaker 6: of a better term, to like reinforce my beliefs. But

482
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:25,919
Speaker 6: I definitely am kind of left there. And I'll mentioned this.

483
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 6: I was raised by a single mother. I didn't really

484
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 6: have I met my father for the first time when

485
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 6: I was eleven, and she's actually a really chill dude,

486
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 6: but we're bros. Like, he's not a father figure per se.

487
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 6: When I was trying to figure out what is a man?

488
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:47,560
Speaker 6: The manner sphere obviously is also another point where that

489
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 6: they give you answers. They're like, you know, oh, all

490
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 6: these poor young guys who are raised by your mother

491
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 6: and so they don't know how to treat a woman

492
00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 6: right now means about it, that's what's wrong.

493
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:06,719
Speaker 8: Yeah, I am like I am your prototypical saved, unsaved person.

494
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:10,040
Speaker 8: You know. It was definitely like there was no space

495
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 8: where I felt like I could perform like Isaiah perform myself.

496
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 8: It was always you go to church, you have to

497
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 8: perform a certain way. You go to school, you got

498
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:22,920
Speaker 8: to perform a certain way around that. Yeah, that was

499
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:26,560
Speaker 8: just a really tough space to kind of look for.

500
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 8: And I will say, like the hardest part about the

501
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 8: manisphere and the masculinity that the manisphere sells you it's

502
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:38,000
Speaker 8: not necessarily the vision as much as it is a

503
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 8: lack of imagination. I think that lack of imagination of

504
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 8: who you could be and who you might be able

505
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:49,200
Speaker 8: to versus what you should be is what robs.

506
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:49,720
Speaker 6: A lot of people.

507
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:54,200
Speaker 8: And when I'm looking back on how the Manisphere and

508
00:29:54,360 --> 00:30:00,240
Speaker 8: how this vision this corporatized product of what masculinity should be,

509
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 8: ultimately I think about all the lost time of me

510
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:07,640
Speaker 8: trying to be something that wasn't rewarding and that wasn't

511
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 8: helping me and wasn't helping others.

512
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:26,240
Speaker 5: The danger of it is they're becoming more extremist in

513
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 5: their beliefs. I would say so Historically, insuls have kind

514
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,320
Speaker 5: of been There are acts of violence and mass violence

515
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 5: that have been committed by them, such as is Silvista shooting,

516
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 5: the Toronto van attack, more and more instances of these

517
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 5: mass acts of violence are popping up, but holistically, the

518
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 5: broader community of insult are nonviolent, and instead they're very

519
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 5: self hating, self deprecating. I actually was talking to this

520
00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:53,560
Speaker 5: co author of mine the other day and she mentioned

521
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:55,960
Speaker 5: I can't remember the name of the book, but a

522
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:58,560
Speaker 5: book that she was reading, and in this book there

523
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:01,840
Speaker 5: was a case of an in cell and I guess

524
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 5: like his friend where they had met on one of

525
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:08,680
Speaker 5: these online spaces and they both had I guess, participated

526
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:14,080
Speaker 5: in sexual activity with a person. And after this instance occurred,

527
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 5: one of the guys broke down, was like, I don't

528
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 5: know who I am anymore. My life is over, my

529
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 5: friends are gone, Like I can't say I'm an incell anymore.

530
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:26,760
Speaker 5: I'm like actually having a complete breakdown. And the other

531
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:30,160
Speaker 5: man and the woman that they engaged in this activity with,

532
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:32,200
Speaker 5: they were comforting him and saying like, no, no, we

533
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 5: don't have to tell anyone, you don't have to tell anyone,

534
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 5: Like we can keep this a secret. It's okay. And

535
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:41,320
Speaker 5: so there's this huge community element of it, and then

536
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:45,280
Speaker 5: also identity component that I think really keeps them like

537
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 5: wrapped in this space. Ultimately, like profound loneliness and mental

538
00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:50,920
Speaker 5: health issues.

539
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 9: This school that I was at was very, very low income,

540
00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:59,080
Speaker 9: and I was, you know, teaching remedial students, and that's

541
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 9: just different. I mean, it felt like there was a

542
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 9: lot more insecurity, at least, like from those kids that

543
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 9: were really engaging in this you know, shitty rhetoric. The

544
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 9: kids that kind of I guess had the most to

545
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 9: prove and didn't have a whole lot to fall back on.

546
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:21,320
Speaker 9: These weren't my kids that were my super high achieving

547
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 9: by the most part. They were my kids that were

548
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:27,240
Speaker 9: struggling and maybe didn't get a whole lot of help

549
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:30,480
Speaker 9: at home and didn't have a whole lot of guidance.

550
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 9: All of these students that I've actually been thinking of

551
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:35,960
Speaker 9: the ones that I really tried to have the most

552
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:39,480
Speaker 9: conversations with and check in with the most, because I

553
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:41,760
Speaker 9: didn't want to sit here and just argue with them.

554
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:46,239
Speaker 9: I wanted to be constructive and to not feel like

555
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:50,240
Speaker 9: I was just sitting here criticizing, criticizing, Like that's not

556
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:51,960
Speaker 9: my job here as a teacher.

557
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:57,240
Speaker 6: You know, I got out of my previous social situation,

558
00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:00,880
Speaker 6: and I think that's one of the things it is

559
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 6: really important that the people that you're around. If you

560
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:07,880
Speaker 6: are able to change your environment, you as a person

561
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:10,719
Speaker 6: might change drastically. And that's really what happened to me

562
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:15,080
Speaker 6: during my exchange here during high school. I'm gaining a

563
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 6: community again, I'm gaining a social support And what has

564
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:22,840
Speaker 6: drawn me into the record was being with my girlfriend

565
00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:26,240
Speaker 6: and then being online not really talking with other people,

566
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:29,040
Speaker 6: potentially getting rejected for people who are like, I don't

567
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:31,760
Speaker 6: know about that. That seems a little iffy, And instead

568
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:34,920
Speaker 6: of being like, yeah, maybe you're right, I'm like, no, no,

569
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 6: this is explicit. You know my worldview. Things are being

570
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 6: explained to me so nicely, so clearly you're wrong. The

571
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:43,360
Speaker 6: algorithm is still there. Who's feeling me things? But I

572
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 6: maybe even through proximity, they're realizing, oh, you're now at university.

573
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 6: You're on a university and maybe ContraPoints is someone who

574
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:54,120
Speaker 6: you would find funny because you're coming from this edgy

575
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 6: humor that we know. This person seems to resonate with

576
00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:01,120
Speaker 6: people like you. One aspect that all THEO radicalized me

577
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:05,120
Speaker 6: is I am very lucky for my socioeconomic status. I

578
00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 6: was able to fail and get back up again. But

579
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:12,520
Speaker 6: like in that financial security, that that is not a

580
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:17,000
Speaker 6: major factor of ratalization. The radicalization came from why don't

581
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:20,640
Speaker 6: girls love me? Rather than why is my life complete shit?

582
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 6: In every regard? You know, why am I being failed

583
00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:24,280
Speaker 6: by the system?

584
00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:24,839
Speaker 4: Yeah?

585
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 6: I say, show me less on YouTube, and it keeps

586
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:33,560
Speaker 6: showing me the same amount. It's ignoring my desires, and

587
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:36,319
Speaker 6: I'm getting more and more frustrated with that, to the

588
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 6: point where I then decide, okay, so clearly my account

589
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:43,080
Speaker 6: is tainted. That that is also part of where I

590
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:47,280
Speaker 6: then started to move out of that sphere. I'm making friends.

591
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:50,480
Speaker 6: I have my social sort problemand building where I have

592
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:53,480
Speaker 6: people that I look up to. I meet my now

593
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:56,799
Speaker 6: wife at university where we're starting to talk about it,

594
00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:00,400
Speaker 6: and she points out to me, like how it's watching

595
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 6: a study, and the study itself, if you look into it,

596
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:07,400
Speaker 6: is the exact opposite. She's she's way smarter than me,

597
00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 6: clever and intelligent, and I love her so much, of course,

598
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:14,839
Speaker 6: but also like she is taking the effort and time.

599
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:18,760
Speaker 6: I got lucky that I had friends with my doctoral student,

600
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:22,359
Speaker 6: with my now wife who took the time to like, hey,

601
00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:24,480
Speaker 6: I think this isn't really right.

602
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:29,240
Speaker 9: My girls were angry, Like there were like a couple

603
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:33,600
Speaker 9: of instances that like, some dudes in the corner would

604
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:37,239
Speaker 9: be talking really really poorly about I don't know, one

605
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:41,400
Speaker 9: of their friends that posted whatever on Instagram. Oh and no,

606
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:44,799
Speaker 9: she looked so slutty whatever. This one instance is that

607
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 9: I'm thinking about. This girl got really really upset because

608
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:50,480
Speaker 9: that was one of her friends, and she was like,

609
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:54,040
Speaker 9: you cannot talk about us this way, like this just

610
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:57,560
Speaker 9: is not okay, and frankly got pretty aggressive about it

611
00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:02,360
Speaker 9: and became a behavioral incident. But I normally in something

612
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:05,279
Speaker 9: like that, I would have referred off. It would have

613
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:09,799
Speaker 9: been disciplinary action and whatever. But I didn't want to

614
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:12,440
Speaker 9: do that because she was right, which kind of ended

615
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 9: up being the conversation I had with her. And I mean,

616
00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:18,359
Speaker 9: I didn't have another issue with her about it, Like

617
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:21,160
Speaker 9: she would say what she needed to say and then

618
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:24,200
Speaker 9: be done. And I hope that that rubbed off on

619
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:26,839
Speaker 9: the rest of the girls in that class. But I

620
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:31,240
Speaker 9: also had at one point in time another queer student

621
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:34,399
Speaker 9: that was in one of my classes that did have

622
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 9: a couple of kids that had specifically talked about Andrew

623
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:41,080
Speaker 9: Tate at a couple of points and interrupted my class

624
00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:44,960
Speaker 9: to do, so they ended up actually transferring out of

625
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:49,759
Speaker 9: my class. They felt like they were being kind of

626
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:54,440
Speaker 9: targeted in a lot of the speech about it, and

627
00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:57,920
Speaker 9: you know, didn't feel comfortable there, which I don't blame them,

628
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:00,480
Speaker 9: and it made me really, really sad. It's hard for

629
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:03,600
Speaker 9: me to say, you know how that affected a lot

630
00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:09,120
Speaker 9: of my other queer students because being in Texas and

631
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:12,360
Speaker 9: you know, in the public education system as a teacher,

632
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:14,719
Speaker 9: I could have lost my job. I could have there

633
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:17,560
Speaker 9: there was a whole lot of shit associated in my

634
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:22,319
Speaker 9: particular district with being out at the time. But for students,

635
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:26,799
Speaker 9: it really wasn't that safe either. I mean a lot

636
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:29,200
Speaker 9: of the teachers, you know, were very we were all

637
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:33,200
Speaker 9: very protective over our queer students, but it was more

638
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:37,160
Speaker 9: worry about parents, honestly. I mean, that's just what it

639
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:39,520
Speaker 9: made it hard. In general, they're not going to say

640
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:42,840
Speaker 9: anything about it because they don't want to target on

641
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:45,880
Speaker 9: their backs, and I can't really necessarily ask them about

642
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:49,799
Speaker 9: it because then I'm overstepping and now there's targets on

643
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:50,800
Speaker 9: both of our backs.

644
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:55,560
Speaker 5: Increasingly, we're finding out that there is a hugely intersexual

645
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:58,479
Speaker 5: component to this, where there's older men in it, there's

646
00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:02,319
Speaker 5: men of all different races. They have horrible names for

647
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:04,799
Speaker 5: men of different races, and they structure them on their

648
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:08,239
Speaker 5: own hierarchy. My research kind of focuses on is like,

649
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 5: how is masculinity constructed in society? How is masculinity displayed

650
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:16,320
Speaker 5: in society? What's considered to be the masculine ideal, because

651
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 5: these men feel as though they're not meeting that, whatever

652
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:21,600
Speaker 5: that is. And it's been established that this is like

653
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:25,040
Speaker 5: the possession of what's called hegemonic masculinity, where it's a

654
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:29,480
Speaker 5: particular type of masculinity that includes like wealth, that includes

655
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:33,440
Speaker 5: racial components, that includes access to women, and all of

656
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:35,600
Speaker 5: these different things that make up what is considered to

657
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 5: be the ideal man. These men feel as though they're

658
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,759
Speaker 5: not fitting. So I think a lot of it is

659
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:45,640
Speaker 5: wrapped up in intersectional identities, and then also just how

660
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:51,239
Speaker 5: our society constructs understandings of ideal masculine performance, what it

661
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:52,120
Speaker 5: means to be a man.

662
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 2: Having been in that space and now reflecting on it,

663
00:38:56,880 --> 00:38:59,520
Speaker 2: what do you make of how these spaces are being

664
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:03,600
Speaker 2: presented to us and what they mean right now?

665
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:07,600
Speaker 4: I think there is an unfortunate amount of like apology

666
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 4: for them. You know, I feel like too often people

667
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:15,000
Speaker 4: will try to couch it in this like, well, dudes

668
00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:18,080
Speaker 4: need a space to be dudes, and dudes will be dudes,

669
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 4: and the society bends over backwards even more for you know,

670
00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 4: an empowered group, and you know, they see queer people

671
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:28,799
Speaker 4: getting fraction about fraction more power, and then they freak

672
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:32,680
Speaker 4: out and everything has to go twelve steps backwards, Like

673
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:36,040
Speaker 4: it is possible to fucking get out of that shit.

674
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:39,359
Speaker 4: It's cheesy to say, but you know, there's hope as

675
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:43,600
Speaker 4: long as people are willing to actually communicate, which is yeah,

676
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:48,200
Speaker 4: I think the biggest challenge there is to actually be

677
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:51,319
Speaker 4: introspective and be thoughtful and you know, actually talk about shit.

678
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:56,000
Speaker 8: I think we often frame men as the were men,

679
00:39:56,120 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 8: identifying individuals as the victims of men sphere content and masculinity,

680
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:05,880
Speaker 8: but it completely underplays the fact that like, at the

681
00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:09,000
Speaker 8: end of the day, the manisphere is informing people who

682
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:13,960
Speaker 8: are performing masculinity and that's impacting women, that's impacting people

683
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:17,920
Speaker 8: who are queer. And in some ways, I've heard people

684
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:21,799
Speaker 8: talk about like the manisphere and they almost placate the

685
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:26,000
Speaker 8: massive amounts of impact that's had on women, right, Like

686
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:29,960
Speaker 8: first dating partners and you're having You're having this like

687
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 8: boyfriend or partner who is trying to perform what the

688
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:37,320
Speaker 8: manisphere is telling them dating or being a boyfriend should

689
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:41,080
Speaker 8: be like, and it's disastrous. But I can't imagine how

690
00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 8: harmful that might be or how kind of difficult it

691
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:48,719
Speaker 8: must be to not only have a partner who is

692
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:53,600
Speaker 8: subscribing to this idea of masculinity, but also perform what

693
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:57,080
Speaker 8: is expected of them from like a femininity standpoint of

694
00:40:57,120 --> 00:41:00,600
Speaker 8: the manisphere. Right one of my own personal I guess,

695
00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:02,959
Speaker 8: like talking about like my queer identity a little bit more,

696
00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:06,359
Speaker 8: taking on more of like a non binary identity has

697
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:10,480
Speaker 8: been like really a reaction to how little I want

698
00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 8: to associate with like masculinity. At this point, I'm actively

699
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:18,000
Speaker 8: sad by like the impact I might have had or

700
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:23,320
Speaker 8: still have by my actions just unknowingly right, like unlearning

701
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:27,799
Speaker 8: masculinity is so difficult, but I think it's it's so necessary.

702
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 8: I think men's rights, like the whole men's rights movement

703
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:35,840
Speaker 8: is like a way of lacating men's responsibility to realize

704
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:40,320
Speaker 8: that they their actions have massive consequences on other people.

705
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:44,319
Speaker 9: I honestly think that the bigger thing that scares me

706
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:49,600
Speaker 9: is the thought patterns behind it and the way that

707
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:53,200
Speaker 9: information is presented. I think that that is also a

708
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:56,360
Speaker 9: lot more contagious. My kid that I had talking about

709
00:41:56,440 --> 00:42:01,160
Speaker 9: their get Rich Quick scheme they got from Andrew Tatan friends,

710
00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:04,319
Speaker 9: that line of thought is going to be able to

711
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:06,759
Speaker 9: spread to a lot more kids, And that way of

712
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:09,080
Speaker 9: thinking is going to spread to a lot more kids

713
00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:12,560
Speaker 9: than say, you know, women should do X y Z.

714
00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:16,520
Speaker 9: That I think is like entirely my job as a teacher,

715
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:21,960
Speaker 9: especially a science teacher, is critical thinking and being able

716
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:27,080
Speaker 9: to point out bullshit arguments and when something is not credible.

717
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:31,520
Speaker 9: I think if kids and people are equipped to be

718
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:34,480
Speaker 9: able to look at the way that these are constructive,

719
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:37,120
Speaker 9: to tell that this is predatory, be able to be

720
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:40,840
Speaker 9: told to see that they're being sold a product, then

721
00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:44,399
Speaker 9: it's less likely to spread. People aren't going to fall

722
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:45,120
Speaker 9: for it.

723
00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:48,120
Speaker 3: Is this an important space to be aware of?

724
00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:50,319
Speaker 7: How is it effective to talk about it?

725
00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:53,520
Speaker 9: I mean, I definitely do think that it is something

726
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:57,640
Speaker 9: that should be talked about a lot more like the

727
00:42:57,719 --> 00:43:01,719
Speaker 9: big thing that is making its rounds in professional development

728
00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:06,240
Speaker 9: stuff is you know, how do we deal with AI

729
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:10,719
Speaker 9: and all of that and I'm not saying that's not important,

730
00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:14,160
Speaker 9: but this doesn't affect you know, how our kids are

731
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:18,280
Speaker 9: writing their essays in all of that, but it affects

732
00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:20,960
Speaker 9: how they operate as people. And I really really wish

733
00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:23,799
Speaker 9: that it was a bigger conversation. I really think the

734
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:27,680
Speaker 9: biggest thing is just talking to your kids and like

735
00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:33,480
Speaker 9: really investing in like, Okay, this kid needs like some guidance.

736
00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:35,839
Speaker 9: But that doesn't mean that I'm going to grab their

737
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:38,840
Speaker 9: hand and yank them into what they need to think.

738
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:44,680
Speaker 9: It's building the relationship and being the role model that

739
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:49,040
Speaker 9: probably inspired you to teach right. Kids need that, especially

740
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:51,600
Speaker 9: if they are at risk like this.

741
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:56,000
Speaker 6: You know, it's the shaming that exists is something that

742
00:43:56,480 --> 00:43:59,800
Speaker 6: people struggle with. But I do hope that they find better,

743
00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:04,640
Speaker 6: healthier resources, like, for examplement to look like round table,

744
00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 6: where you're working towards something proactive, something positive, rather than

745
00:44:10,719 --> 00:44:14,680
Speaker 6: trying to find an explanation that feels good but that

746
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:19,680
Speaker 6: leaves you still disconnected and frustrated and somebody else. I

747
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:22,040
Speaker 6: think if you're getting frustrated somebody else, that is very

748
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:25,600
Speaker 6: profitable for algorithms, and that is something a memory. I

749
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:30,080
Speaker 6: think it's scary for the nearer generation. It really is

750
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:34,839
Speaker 6: not something that the loneliness will be talked about, but

751
00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:38,520
Speaker 6: the reasons for that and this idea of like something

752
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:41,359
Speaker 6: is wrong with you, Here are ways to find that out,

753
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:46,080
Speaker 6: Like going to a therapist is something that is if

754
00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:49,560
Speaker 6: you feel lonely, there is no shame in trying to

755
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:52,400
Speaker 6: tell that to someone and trying to find a solution

756
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:55,000
Speaker 6: for that. I think that's extremely important.

757
00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:59,239
Speaker 5: I about asked before if while I'm researching, if I

758
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:04,680
Speaker 5: feel empathy towards this group, and at times yes and

759
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:09,759
Speaker 5: at times no. At times I feel like profoundly disgusted

760
00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:13,879
Speaker 5: and angry. And also there's been moments where I've had

761
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:17,160
Speaker 5: to shut my laptop, go in my room and like

762
00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:20,600
Speaker 5: cry for a minute because I've seen things that are

763
00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:24,280
Speaker 5: so horrific. When I hear something like the male loneliness epidemic,

764
00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:28,080
Speaker 5: I'm like WHOA, Like why is that our responsibility? Like

765
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:31,960
Speaker 5: figure out? And I think that men have been socialized

766
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:36,839
Speaker 5: in a way to not value to repress their emotions.

767
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:40,400
Speaker 5: I guess I would say therapy and understanding that perhaps

768
00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:42,560
Speaker 5: you have a mental illness can be constructed as weak

769
00:45:42,719 --> 00:45:45,160
Speaker 5: or not believed by certain people, And so that's like

770
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:48,759
Speaker 5: a social construction that people who have been socialized as

771
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:50,919
Speaker 5: men have to battle, I think to a degree, which

772
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:53,560
Speaker 5: then I think does breed this. But then also there

773
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:58,400
Speaker 5: is a sociological theory that's called like the concept of

774
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:02,200
Speaker 5: aggrieved entitlement, which is the idea that we've socialized men

775
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:05,320
Speaker 5: in society in a way to believe that they're owed

776
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:08,880
Speaker 5: certain things for just being men. Access to women's bodies

777
00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:10,960
Speaker 5: is one of that, and so then when they don't

778
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:15,440
Speaker 5: receive that, sometimes these groups pop up and they're angry

779
00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:17,799
Speaker 5: about it. I think it's like the steps of harm

780
00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:21,960
Speaker 5: reduction and the steps of creating community. It's like almost there,

781
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:24,640
Speaker 5: but then they like blame it on women at some point,

782
00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:27,399
Speaker 5: and you're like, wait, you were so close. What's going on?

783
00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:30,279
Speaker 8: I think it's really men have to come up with

784
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:34,040
Speaker 8: the self realization that they're hurting others and that their

785
00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:39,480
Speaker 8: identity and their idea of masculinity has impacts on others.

786
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:43,719
Speaker 8: It has been marginalized communities. It's been the mothers, it's

787
00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:46,279
Speaker 8: been the sisters. It's been the partners who have had

788
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:50,920
Speaker 8: to do the leg work sitting their spouse, their partner,

789
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:54,840
Speaker 8: their brother down and saying, hey, these attitudes are not there.

790
00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:57,360
Speaker 8: I think it's really on men to realize that, and

791
00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:00,919
Speaker 8: I think we have to keep the respect onsibility on men.

792
00:47:01,239 --> 00:47:03,960
Speaker 8: The moral panic that's going on right now about the

793
00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:08,120
Speaker 8: manusphere almost stops conversation on like what are people getting

794
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:11,800
Speaker 8: and like, really how systemic manisphere content is because I

795
00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:15,360
Speaker 8: think people like it's so hard to generalize, like what

796
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:19,280
Speaker 8: are we talking Andrew Tait? Are we talking about Joe Rogan.

797
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:24,120
Speaker 8: If we label people as manasphere content and dismissive of

798
00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:28,799
Speaker 8: their like potential audiences and their potential communities, I think

799
00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:31,640
Speaker 8: that could really alienate people. And I think it's the

800
00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:35,200
Speaker 8: alienation that is really going to be causing people to

801
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:38,000
Speaker 8: act with prejudice and act with stereotypes. I think it's

802
00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:42,200
Speaker 8: trying not to put people in a situation where they

803
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:46,800
Speaker 8: feel like the victim, but more so understanding their actions

804
00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:49,160
Speaker 8: from potentially victimizing others.

805
00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:52,319
Speaker 2: Thank you so much to everyone I spoke with in

806
00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:56,239
Speaker 2: the process of reporting on the Manisphere. I am so

807
00:47:56,239 --> 00:47:58,560
Speaker 2: so so grateful, and not just to the folks I

808
00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:01,880
Speaker 2: talk to today, but to everyone I've spoken to for

809
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:06,319
Speaker 2: this show. Obviously this wasn't a quantitative study, but I

810
00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:09,280
Speaker 2: think it's telling that the first three people who reached

811
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:11,160
Speaker 2: out to me when I put a call out who

812
00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:14,960
Speaker 2: had been in the Manisphere were either closeted queer folks

813
00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:18,879
Speaker 2: or neurodivergent and lacked a support system that understood them

814
00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:21,080
Speaker 2: while they were being pulled.

815
00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:22,360
Speaker 3: Into these spaces.

816
00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:25,080
Speaker 2: And of course I'm not saying that everyone in the

817
00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:28,880
Speaker 2: manisphere is either queer or neurodivergent. That's obviously far from

818
00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:32,279
Speaker 2: the truth. But to me, this demonstrates how the manisphere

819
00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:36,880
Speaker 2: praise on those who do not meet the stereotypical masculine

820
00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:40,959
Speaker 2: idea and encourage them to turn on others even more

821
00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:46,320
Speaker 2: disenfranchised than themselves instead of just rejecting that image of masculinity.

822
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:49,440
Speaker 3: So my conclusion with this series.

823
00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:53,480
Speaker 2: Honestly, I don't love it, because what's obvious from everyone

824
00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:56,359
Speaker 2: I've spoken to is that the clearest solution is a

825
00:48:56,400 --> 00:49:01,040
Speaker 2: healthier community. Tom and Arna both detailed how finding more

826
00:49:01,080 --> 00:49:04,640
Speaker 2: empathetic and purposeful groups of friends made them feel better

827
00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:08,719
Speaker 2: and more purposeful themselves, making it somewhat easier to get

828
00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:12,400
Speaker 2: out of the Manisphere altogether. And of course the ability

829
00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:16,440
Speaker 2: to do that will always intersect with class, and Isaiah

830
00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:19,040
Speaker 2: was able to keep their distance from the Manisphere because

831
00:49:19,120 --> 00:49:22,840
Speaker 2: of queer, anti capitalist role models that they found on YouTube.

832
00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:27,680
Speaker 2: And that's wonderful, but there is still this kick in

833
00:49:27,719 --> 00:49:29,880
Speaker 2: the back of my mind, the kick that tells me

834
00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:33,239
Speaker 2: that the centrist men behind laptops are still going to

835
00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:37,239
Speaker 2: turn around and say the Manisphere will go away if

836
00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:40,200
Speaker 2: women and non binary folks can just be nice to

837
00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:45,040
Speaker 2: men who are still in these spaces. Page experienced that

838
00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:48,520
Speaker 2: as a teacher, Alyssa experienced that as a researcher, and

839
00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:51,239
Speaker 2: still there is this pattern if you keep track of

840
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:55,240
Speaker 2: places like r in cell Exit. Something that Laura Bates

841
00:49:55,280 --> 00:49:57,920
Speaker 2: mentions in men who hate women that one of the

842
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:01,719
Speaker 2: more common experiences that that extracts young men from this

843
00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:06,080
Speaker 2: space is just a woman being nice to them. Here's

844
00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:08,560
Speaker 2: a little clip I wanted to save for the end

845
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:10,000
Speaker 2: from Alyssa.

846
00:50:10,239 --> 00:50:13,440
Speaker 5: There's one post that it sticks with me where it

847
00:50:13,520 --> 00:50:16,799
Speaker 5: was literally titled let women prove You Wrong, And it

848
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:20,359
Speaker 5: was this whole story about how this person had had

849
00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:23,239
Speaker 5: a really positive interaction with a woman and was like

850
00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:25,759
Speaker 5: women are human, and like that's amazing, and like you

851
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:29,040
Speaker 5: really should talk to women and let them prove you wrong.

852
00:50:29,200 --> 00:50:33,200
Speaker 5: They're not evil. People think like interesting from multiple levels.

853
00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:36,600
Speaker 5: One because I think it's I guess profoundly sad that

854
00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:39,400
Speaker 5: he had been socialized to believe that women were so

855
00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:41,880
Speaker 5: evil that it was surprising he had a positive interaction,

856
00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:44,120
Speaker 5: or perhaps he'd never had a positive interaction with a

857
00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:45,959
Speaker 5: woman and that was truly his first one.

858
00:50:46,719 --> 00:50:50,399
Speaker 2: I mean, come on, and if you are someone who

859
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:53,839
Speaker 2: has that patience and that willingness, then that's incredible. I'm

860
00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:57,320
Speaker 2: not discouraging it at all, and there have been times

861
00:50:57,360 --> 00:51:00,759
Speaker 2: where I've had that patience myself, and I also know

862
00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:03,640
Speaker 2: plenty of wonderful people who are way better at.

863
00:51:03,560 --> 00:51:04,560
Speaker 3: It than I am.

864
00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:08,520
Speaker 2: But it's the expectation that this will happen in order

865
00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:11,799
Speaker 2: to dismantle this space that I still find really frustrating.

866
00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:15,360
Speaker 2: I want to echo what Isaiah said earlier. It's on

867
00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:19,319
Speaker 2: other men. I would rather a man be embarrassed while

868
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:22,000
Speaker 2: trying to talk a friend down from the manisphere than

869
00:51:22,080 --> 00:51:25,000
Speaker 2: ten women get doxed. We've talked a lot about how

870
00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:29,040
Speaker 2: there is a gradient for how misogynists these spaces can get,

871
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:33,000
Speaker 2: but there's also a gradient of consequences for its targets,

872
00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:38,040
Speaker 2: ranging from a fundamental diurth of respect for our personhood

873
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:42,279
Speaker 2: to being a literally lethal space. And this isn't a

874
00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:46,520
Speaker 2: consequence of the manisphere specifically, it's just what the manisphere

875
00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:50,600
Speaker 2: is upholding. I'll remind you that domestic violence against women

876
00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:54,360
Speaker 2: has the statistics to support one of the leading causes

877
00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:58,960
Speaker 2: of domestic terrorism, but no one ever says that. Because

878
00:51:59,239 --> 00:52:04,040
Speaker 2: domestic violence against women is so normal, the media that

879
00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:09,400
Speaker 2: covers these spaces will always prioritize the perpetrators and rarely

880
00:52:09,719 --> 00:52:15,440
Speaker 2: interrogate the cause. It's a digital manifestation of misogyny that

881
00:52:15,680 --> 00:52:21,920
Speaker 2: skews into every marginalized community therein misogy, nore transphobia, you

882
00:52:22,040 --> 00:52:25,959
Speaker 2: name it, and these are equally under discussed and can

883
00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:31,319
Speaker 2: be even more lethal. To conclude, the manisphere is a

884
00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:35,480
Speaker 2: response to expectations under capitalism. You hate to hear it,

885
00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:39,279
Speaker 2: but it's simply true. There are so many men out

886
00:52:39,320 --> 00:52:42,320
Speaker 2: there who feel that they are failing to meet an ideal,

887
00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:46,960
Speaker 2: most often because the system is failing them. We heard

888
00:52:46,960 --> 00:52:50,279
Speaker 2: today from people who were not meeting theseis hetero successful

889
00:52:50,320 --> 00:52:54,480
Speaker 2: male ideal because they were queer or because they were neurodivergent.

890
00:52:55,040 --> 00:52:57,719
Speaker 2: But there's so many sources of this feeling of not

891
00:52:57,960 --> 00:53:02,200
Speaker 2: measuring up because of how White's embassy and capitalism makes

892
00:53:02,360 --> 00:53:06,239
Speaker 2: everyone feel to be anything. Butt white isn't measuring up

893
00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:09,359
Speaker 2: to be anything, butt rich isn't measuring up. And we're

894
00:53:09,360 --> 00:53:13,080
Speaker 2: living in an increasingly diverse society where we're being pummeled

895
00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:16,000
Speaker 2: with wealth inequality, so you would either have to be

896
00:53:16,200 --> 00:53:20,840
Speaker 2: tremendously lucky to measure up to these standards, or more often,

897
00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:23,560
Speaker 2: just become a fucking grifter or yourself.

898
00:53:24,160 --> 00:53:25,800
Speaker 3: The manisphere doesn't.

899
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:30,840
Speaker 2: Really interrogate any system at all, instead encouraging men to

900
00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:35,000
Speaker 2: push their rightful anger at targets who have always been

901
00:53:35,040 --> 00:53:39,560
Speaker 2: considered fair game women, or to be more specific, anyone

902
00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:43,640
Speaker 2: who is not a snisman. Doing so will continue to

903
00:53:43,719 --> 00:53:47,640
Speaker 2: thwart progress. It will accomplish nothing in changing these men's

904
00:53:47,680 --> 00:53:51,040
Speaker 2: feelings of insecurity and failure, and it will mean that

905
00:53:51,080 --> 00:53:53,880
Speaker 2: there's a generation of girls and non binary kids that

906
00:53:54,200 --> 00:53:58,720
Speaker 2: will internalize this space, regardless of whether they take action

907
00:53:59,000 --> 00:54:03,480
Speaker 2: for or a gain it. So sorry I had to

908
00:54:03,520 --> 00:54:06,160
Speaker 2: tell you all that, and that's it for this mini series.

909
00:54:06,800 --> 00:54:08,720
Speaker 2: Thank you so much to everyone who has been listening.

910
00:54:09,080 --> 00:54:11,759
Speaker 2: This was a very challenging series to put together with

911
00:54:11,840 --> 00:54:14,319
Speaker 2: a show that is on a weekly schedule, so I

912
00:54:14,320 --> 00:54:16,719
Speaker 2: really hope you've gotten something out of it, and if

913
00:54:16,719 --> 00:54:21,680
Speaker 2: you did, please subscribe to the show. Engagement talk like comment, subscribe,

914
00:54:21,719 --> 00:54:24,120
Speaker 2: tell your friends, or I haven't slept in three weeks

915
00:54:24,160 --> 00:54:27,440
Speaker 2: for no reason. You can also join our reddit board

916
00:54:27,480 --> 00:54:30,520
Speaker 2: at our slash sixteenth minute. It is the rare, wholesome

917
00:54:30,560 --> 00:54:33,600
Speaker 2: reddit board. You can follow me on Instagram at Jamie

918
00:54:33,680 --> 00:54:36,719
Speaker 2: christ Superstar or at Blue Sky just under my name,

919
00:54:37,160 --> 00:54:39,840
Speaker 2: and you can come back next week for our final

920
00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:43,120
Speaker 2: episode of the year to hear who I have declared

921
00:54:43,960 --> 00:54:49,160
Speaker 2: the Internet's main character of the year. My answer is

922
00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:55,280
Speaker 2: not surprising. It is Hawked toa Bye.

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00:54:57,280 --> 00:55:00,840
Speaker 1: Sixteenth minute as a production of Cool Zone Media and iHeartRadio.

924
00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:04,719
Speaker 1: It is written, hosted, and produced by me Jamie Loftus.

925
00:55:04,920 --> 00:55:08,000
Speaker 1: Our executive producers are Sophie Leick Derman and Robert Evans.

926
00:55:08,200 --> 00:55:12,280
Speaker 1: He Amazing Ian Johnson is our supervising producer and our editor.

927
00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:16,680
Speaker 3: Our theme song is by Sad thirteen. Voice acting is

928
00:55:16,719 --> 00:55:18,680
Speaker 3: from Grant Crater and Pet.

929
00:55:18,719 --> 00:55:21,600
Speaker 2: Shout outs to our dog producer Anderson, my Kat's Flea

930
00:55:21,640 --> 00:55:25,040
Speaker 2: and Casper, and my pet Rockbird, who will outlive us all.

931
00:55:25,040 --> 00:55:25,440
Speaker 3: Bye