WEBVTT - Bonnie Raitt 0:00:15.436 --> 0:00:22.996 Pushkin. Hey, y'all's justin Richmond. Today we have on the 0:00:22.996 --> 0:00:25.916 show Rock and Roll Hall of Famer the person who 0:00:25.956 --> 0:00:28.996 has one of my all time favorite singer songwriter albums, 0:00:29.476 --> 0:00:35.876 Bonnie Rate. She's a ridiculous guitarist, gorgeous singer, wonderful interpreter 0:00:36.076 --> 0:00:40.436 song and maybe even underrated as a songwriter herself. Bonnie 0:00:40.436 --> 0:00:42.636 was offered her first record deal as a college student 0:00:42.676 --> 0:00:45.836 in seventy one after a newsweek reporter saw her playing 0:00:45.836 --> 0:00:48.956 an early gig in Greenwich Village, but it took almost 0:00:48.996 --> 0:00:53.116 two decades before she peaked commercially. In eighty nine, her 0:00:53.236 --> 0:00:56.596 tenth album, Nick of Time, debuted at number one and 0:00:56.676 --> 0:01:00.556 earned three Grammys, including Album of the Year. She built 0:01:00.556 --> 0:01:02.956 on that success over the next five years with two 0:01:02.996 --> 0:01:06.596 more hit albums and even more top ten singles. In 0:01:06.636 --> 0:01:09.996 addition to her commercial success, Bonnie has been a devout 0:01:10.116 --> 0:01:14.476 advocate for preserving American blues music, bringing songs of the 0:01:14.516 --> 0:01:19.916 masses from little known but classic songwriters. On today's episode, 0:01:19.956 --> 0:01:22.916 Bruce Headlam talks to Bonnie Rate about her meticulous song 0:01:22.956 --> 0:01:26.476 selection process in the inspiration behind the tunes she wrote 0:01:26.476 --> 0:01:29.756 for her new album Just Like That. Bonnie also talks 0:01:29.756 --> 0:01:32.476 about a somewhat awkward dinner she had with Prince and 0:01:32.596 --> 0:01:35.716 how her slide guitar technique will forever be tied to 0:01:35.796 --> 0:01:42.396 giving her brother the finger. This is broken record liner 0:01:42.436 --> 0:01:46.436 notes for the digital age. I'm justin Richmond. Here's Bruce 0:01:46.476 --> 0:01:49.796 Headlam and Bonnie Ray. Now, my wife is a huge 0:01:50.636 --> 0:01:54.636 she loves Broadway and she grew up with your father's 0:01:54.676 --> 0:02:00.556 recording of I think Carousel, the original cast recording. Yeah, yeah, 0:02:00.596 --> 0:02:03.436 so I admit I was just watching some clips of 0:02:03.516 --> 0:02:06.556 him on YouTube. First of all, you look a lot 0:02:06.636 --> 0:02:09.796 like him, my goodness, thank you. But he ever says 0:02:09.796 --> 0:02:11.596 that I have the same bump in my nose and 0:02:11.676 --> 0:02:15.716 we have a broad Scottish face. So he's extremely handsome. 0:02:15.756 --> 0:02:18.876 I didn't quite get that. But he's any any resemblance 0:02:18.916 --> 0:02:21.676 I'm really proud of. Well. Also, he had a good 0:02:21.716 --> 0:02:25.076 looking head of hair, as of course to you, thank 0:02:25.116 --> 0:02:27.396 you very much. Yeah, he all the way un till 0:02:27.436 --> 0:02:31.036 he was passed away. He had a lion's mane. Now 0:02:31.076 --> 0:02:34.716 my wife described him as he was Hugh Jackman, big 0:02:34.796 --> 0:02:40.076 strapping guy. Yep. Thank you for opening this interview paying 0:02:40.116 --> 0:02:43.396 tribute to him, because I'm such a I'm so grateful 0:02:43.396 --> 0:02:45.356 that I get to be his daughter, and my mom's too, 0:02:45.356 --> 0:02:49.236 who is his music director, but they he was nobody 0:02:49.236 --> 0:02:52.636 better as a leading man. We'll talk about you and 0:02:52.676 --> 0:02:55.516 then we'll come back to him. It's been six years 0:02:55.556 --> 0:02:59.356 since your last album. Yeah, what has that six years 0:02:59.396 --> 0:03:02.356 been like for you? Well? Working backwards, we had the 0:03:02.476 --> 0:03:05.076 little thing called a shutdown, so we couldn't get my 0:03:05.156 --> 0:03:08.636 band together, we couldn't tour. We had to cancel altogether 0:03:08.716 --> 0:03:11.876 four tours of my own and three with James Taylor 0:03:11.916 --> 0:03:16.156 in Canada. We kept postponing them and that was frustrating 0:03:16.196 --> 0:03:18.436 for somebody that's been on the road since I was twenty. 0:03:19.276 --> 0:03:21.476 And then I finally had a window when everybody was 0:03:21.556 --> 0:03:24.956 vaccinated and before the omicron surge in June and we 0:03:25.036 --> 0:03:27.996 flew out and it had been over two years since 0:03:27.996 --> 0:03:30.716 we played live, so I was really thrilled. So that 0:03:31.476 --> 0:03:34.996 took care of last year and the year before was 0:03:35.036 --> 0:03:40.196 just doing recordings from my house for various Democratic candidates 0:03:40.196 --> 0:03:43.636 and farm aide and gun control benefits and lots of 0:03:43.756 --> 0:03:47.676 musicians relief efforts, and you know, there was climate disasters 0:03:47.716 --> 0:03:50.156 that needed fundraising force. So I was able to be 0:03:50.396 --> 0:03:54.476 very busy but I missed cranking up my guitar and 0:03:54.556 --> 0:03:57.956 planted drums. And then before that we did a couple 0:03:58.116 --> 0:04:00.196 We did a year and a half with James opening 0:04:00.196 --> 0:04:03.236 for him and Arenas we double build. You know, sang 0:04:03.276 --> 0:04:05.116 a little bit on his set, he sang on mine. 0:04:05.236 --> 0:04:08.636 And before that I did my usual two year album 0:04:08.676 --> 0:04:11.996 tour with Digging Deep came out in twenty sixteen. It 0:04:12.076 --> 0:04:14.676 was a two year extension because of the COVID and 0:04:14.716 --> 0:04:16.996 I'm probably a two year extension to work with James. 0:04:17.756 --> 0:04:20.676 So is it Touring does not get tiring for you. 0:04:20.156 --> 0:04:23.516 You've done it so long, you do it so ferociously, 0:04:23.796 --> 0:04:27.196 it doesn't get old. Well, if I was keeping the 0:04:27.236 --> 0:04:30.556 same lifestyle I was the first seventeen years, I probably 0:04:30.556 --> 0:04:32.516 would have been flat on my back and not able 0:04:32.556 --> 0:04:35.796 to carry on the pace that I do. But as 0:04:35.876 --> 0:04:38.916 accommodation to being older, we do it. We do two 0:04:38.916 --> 0:04:41.036 shows in a row instead of three. Used to do 0:04:41.156 --> 0:04:43.356 three and then one off and two and then one off. 0:04:43.636 --> 0:04:46.676 So we do two on one off to rest my voice, 0:04:47.316 --> 0:04:50.556 texting an email has made it really better for saving 0:04:50.556 --> 0:04:53.996 my voice. I actually played a little bit longer show 0:04:53.996 --> 0:04:56.676 because I used to do a lot of fundraising receptions 0:04:56.676 --> 0:04:58.836 after the show too, which also wears out your voice. 0:04:58.836 --> 0:05:03.196 So I would say the touring part is fun to 0:05:03.236 --> 0:05:05.716 wake up in five cities a week, fun to have 0:05:05.756 --> 0:05:08.836 an opening night every night, to prove to the crowd 0:05:08.916 --> 0:05:11.316 that you're just as if not better than you were 0:05:11.316 --> 0:05:14.396 a last time, at least as good. And you know, 0:05:14.836 --> 0:05:17.516 I'm not gonna lie and say that it was. It's 0:05:17.516 --> 0:05:20.556 as fun as it was the first few decades when 0:05:20.596 --> 0:05:22.556 we could stay up and party and go to clubs 0:05:22.556 --> 0:05:25.876 and sit in with bands and act like fools. But 0:05:26.396 --> 0:05:29.556 it's really satisfying to play the shows. So the extra, 0:05:30.116 --> 0:05:34.116 the twenty two hours in between the shows is the challenge. 0:05:34.156 --> 0:05:36.116 But I've made it work for me as I you know, 0:05:36.156 --> 0:05:39.476 I do yoga, I talk to my friends. I'm not 0:05:39.476 --> 0:05:41.196 going to see as many of them on this tour, 0:05:41.276 --> 0:05:45.196 but you know, FaceTime and texting and all that has 0:05:45.196 --> 0:05:47.836 made it a lot more easy to be in touch 0:05:47.876 --> 0:05:50.876 with your loved ones. So it's not draining if you 0:05:50.916 --> 0:05:54.356 take care of yourself, and the bliss and the exaltation 0:05:54.436 --> 0:05:59.356 and the blast of energy and tribal connection and joy 0:05:59.676 --> 0:06:01.996 comes from the stage shows. So that I'd have to 0:06:02.036 --> 0:06:04.636 say that as the driving force and also making a 0:06:04.676 --> 0:06:07.436 living for twenty five people that would like to continue 0:06:07.436 --> 0:06:10.916 to pay their heating bill. To get together with your 0:06:10.916 --> 0:06:13.796 band and to get it to do this album? Is 0:06:13.836 --> 0:06:16.636 it a matter of gathering all the songs together first? 0:06:16.876 --> 0:06:20.076 What part of the process is that? Yeah, I mean 0:06:20.196 --> 0:06:23.916 I start calling songs down from ideas that I've saved 0:06:23.996 --> 0:06:26.276 over the years. There's certain songs on this record that 0:06:26.356 --> 0:06:29.716 have been resting and waiting. Do they have their day 0:06:29.756 --> 0:06:34.876 in court? And I look in earnest all the time. 0:06:34.916 --> 0:06:39.036 I'm always listening to maybe twenty or thirty songwriters that 0:06:39.116 --> 0:06:40.916 I really love the work of, some of whom are 0:06:40.956 --> 0:06:43.956 well known and others are more obscure. And I love 0:06:44.076 --> 0:06:50.236 the challenge of unearthing some unbelievably obscure jewel off of 0:06:50.276 --> 0:06:54.316 somebody's early records. So it's a song hunt that unearthed 0:06:54.676 --> 0:06:59.076 R and B chestnuts, current singer songwriters, old catalog from 0:06:59.076 --> 0:07:04.276 other artists, lots of publishing submissions, and some of my own. 0:07:04.476 --> 0:07:07.396 So you know, the process starts a couple of years 0:07:07.396 --> 0:07:10.396 before we actually get in the studio, and then, like 0:07:10.556 --> 0:07:12.916 the person that works on the term paper right before 0:07:12.956 --> 0:07:15.516 it's due, that's when I write my songs is right. 0:07:15.556 --> 0:07:18.236 When we go ready to go on the studio, I go, oh, 0:07:18.276 --> 0:07:21.316 I better finish this because I have really high standards 0:07:21.436 --> 0:07:24.196 and I don't make the cut off. And what do 0:07:24.236 --> 0:07:26.316 you look for in a song? Has it changed over 0:07:26.356 --> 0:07:29.996 the years. I'd like to say that it has changed, 0:07:30.036 --> 0:07:32.716 but not really. The main thing that is on my 0:07:32.756 --> 0:07:36.596 mind is not repeating myself. So finding something new to 0:07:36.676 --> 0:07:41.836 say at twenty one albums is musically and lyrically very challenging. 0:07:41.956 --> 0:07:47.196 So I've covered every aspect of broken love, longing for love, 0:07:48.036 --> 0:07:50.476 I'm excited to be in love, you know, all of 0:07:50.476 --> 0:07:54.196 that issue. And then there's some societal kind of songs, 0:07:54.356 --> 0:07:57.796 and there's just chestnuts from the blues and reggae and 0:07:57.916 --> 0:08:01.596 world music pantheon of our great artist that I love. 0:08:01.956 --> 0:08:03.956 So I just kind of want to make it fresh 0:08:03.996 --> 0:08:06.236 for myself and for my fans, and stretch a little 0:08:06.236 --> 0:08:08.636 bit and do some feels on the record that are 0:08:08.636 --> 0:08:10.956 going to add to my show when I go out 0:08:10.996 --> 0:08:13.756 on the road. I write my own songs kind of 0:08:13.756 --> 0:08:16.956 on assignment for what groove I'm missing and what topic 0:08:16.996 --> 0:08:20.396 I'm not covering yet. So I want to be I 0:08:20.436 --> 0:08:23.476 want to be new and interesting to myself, and I 0:08:23.516 --> 0:08:26.676 think that pays off for the fans too. I found 0:08:26.676 --> 0:08:30.796 your own songs on this record to be very different. Now, 0:08:30.836 --> 0:08:34.716 your last album had one of your favorite songs of mine, 0:08:34.756 --> 0:08:37.116 which is the Ones We Couldn't Be, which I think 0:08:37.196 --> 0:08:41.076 is just should be way way up there for you 0:08:41.196 --> 0:08:45.396 because it's a fantastic song, Thank You, Thank You. This 0:08:45.516 --> 0:08:47.156 is at least two of the songs are very very 0:08:47.196 --> 0:08:49.916 different though their narrative songs, and I can't remember you 0:08:49.956 --> 0:08:55.476 ever writing that kind of song before their storytellers songs. Yeah, 0:08:55.516 --> 0:08:57.636 I was just going to ask you first about the 0:08:57.636 --> 0:09:02.356 title track, which is just like that. Yeah. I deliberately 0:09:02.396 --> 0:09:05.076 wanted to do something different, like a story song. I 0:09:05.116 --> 0:09:08.196 mean quite quite a bit, inspired by my friend John Prine, 0:09:08.196 --> 0:09:11.116 and even before he passed away, I had come up 0:09:11.116 --> 0:09:13.716 with the ideas to do these two songs that are 0:09:13.756 --> 0:09:17.676 kind of acoustic and story songs. I remember being very 0:09:17.756 --> 0:09:20.316 moved by the gift of the Magi by O Henry 0:09:20.356 --> 0:09:23.356 when I was a kid, and I love telling stories 0:09:23.396 --> 0:09:26.876 that you have a twist a little bit in the ending, 0:09:26.956 --> 0:09:30.036 and I love reading those. I'm a big short story reader. 0:09:30.716 --> 0:09:33.956 But I found two incidents out in the world that 0:09:34.036 --> 0:09:38.756 really inspired these songs. And back in twenty eighteen, I 0:09:38.796 --> 0:09:42.236 saw a news program, evening News, that finished with a 0:09:42.356 --> 0:09:45.956 human interest segment, as they often do to balance the 0:09:45.996 --> 0:09:49.796 bad news with something hopeful, and that crew followed a 0:09:49.916 --> 0:09:53.196 woman knocking on the door of the gentleman that had 0:09:53.236 --> 0:09:57.076 received her son's heart as an organ donation, and they 0:09:57.076 --> 0:09:59.836 were capturing that on camera, and that was emotional enough, 0:09:59.916 --> 0:10:02.516 but he said, would you like to put your head 0:10:02.556 --> 0:10:04.796 on my chest and listen to your son's heart? And 0:10:04.876 --> 0:10:08.836 I lost it. I'm losing it now because it was 0:10:08.876 --> 0:10:11.956 so moving to me what that must have been like 0:10:12.076 --> 0:10:14.956 for both of those people. So I knew right then 0:10:14.996 --> 0:10:16.636 I was going to write a song about it. And 0:10:16.716 --> 0:10:22.436 I created a character that probably didn't even have any 0:10:22.476 --> 0:10:25.516 idea that her son organ was going to be donated. 0:10:25.556 --> 0:10:28.076 Normally have to get permission, but she was responsible for 0:10:28.156 --> 0:10:31.396 the death of her child and was so mortified when 0:10:31.396 --> 0:10:33.676 she came out of her whatever coomar or healing, she 0:10:33.796 --> 0:10:37.716 just left town and disappeared. And the song is about 0:10:37.756 --> 0:10:42.956 the recipient of her son's heart as a child spending 0:10:42.956 --> 0:10:45.716 twenty years trying to find her so he could share 0:10:45.756 --> 0:10:48.476 that with her that she gave him life, and she 0:10:48.516 --> 0:10:51.996 gave life to them both. It's interesting that you flipped 0:10:51.996 --> 0:10:55.436 it from the original story. You made the woman the 0:10:55.476 --> 0:10:58.996 person in the house who didn't know this was happening. Yeah, 0:10:59.236 --> 0:11:01.716 there's a lot of YouTube videos it turns out, of 0:11:01.956 --> 0:11:05.476 families meeting each other for the first time that received Yeah, 0:11:05.556 --> 0:11:07.556 I didn't know about it. You know, when something moves 0:11:07.596 --> 0:11:10.676 me that much. Was These are the first two songs 0:11:10.676 --> 0:11:12.836 I had to write for the record. And I knew 0:11:13.276 --> 0:11:15.316 that I had some other songs saved up that are 0:11:15.316 --> 0:11:17.716 we going to put in this time, But that song 0:11:17.836 --> 0:11:21.156 was just very powerful for me to write, and the 0:11:21.236 --> 0:11:24.876 idea of redemption and being able to finally have some 0:11:24.996 --> 0:11:28.156 grace and forgive yourself that you don't have to be 0:11:28.236 --> 0:11:31.196 going through having killed somebody accidentally in a car to 0:11:31.276 --> 0:11:34.516 feel that way. And it's all the ways that our 0:11:34.556 --> 0:11:36.836 lives are turned around by an act of grace and 0:11:36.996 --> 0:11:41.876 love from someone else. And I learned about it from Angel, 0:11:41.916 --> 0:11:45.436 from Montgomery and from Donald and Lydia, and you know, 0:11:45.476 --> 0:11:48.076 all the great story songs of Dylan's early records and 0:11:48.196 --> 0:11:50.916 Jackson Brown and so many others in the folk tradition. 0:11:51.676 --> 0:11:53.956 I'm really hoping that it resonates with people because it's 0:11:54.316 --> 0:11:57.316 it sure did with me. How is it different writing 0:11:57.316 --> 0:11:59.916 this kind of story song. First of all, you're doing 0:11:59.956 --> 0:12:02.636 some fingerpicking, which we don't often hear, which is lovely 0:12:02.676 --> 0:12:06.196 to hear. Did it start on the guitar? Did it 0:12:06.276 --> 0:12:08.516 start with the lyrics? How did you approach this song? 0:12:08.636 --> 0:12:11.116 Was it different? I wrote the lyrics when I came 0:12:11.156 --> 0:12:12.716 off the road and I had a break back in 0:12:12.756 --> 0:12:16.636 twenty nineteen in the winter, and I wrote both of 0:12:16.676 --> 0:12:18.716 this acoustic songs, and I knew that I was going 0:12:18.756 --> 0:12:20.716 to be on the guitar because I normally write the 0:12:21.076 --> 0:12:24.196 songs like the ones we Couldn't Be or All at Once, 0:12:24.516 --> 0:12:26.676 which is another story song that I wrote years ago. 0:12:26.716 --> 0:12:29.796 I think it's on luck of the draw. But I 0:12:29.836 --> 0:12:33.596 wrote the lyrics they were like they like people say. 0:12:33.596 --> 0:12:35.356 It's a bit of a cliche to say they kind 0:12:35.356 --> 0:12:37.596 of channeled through me, but that was I had a 0:12:38.596 --> 0:12:42.436 very kind of sacred intention with wanting to make this 0:12:42.556 --> 0:12:44.996 story real and I knew. I knew before I set 0:12:45.036 --> 0:12:47.356 the words down that it was going to end with 0:12:47.396 --> 0:12:50.756 this woman's life being changed. And it was fun painting 0:12:50.756 --> 0:12:53.036 in the details, you know, and just making it just right. 0:12:53.076 --> 0:12:55.556 Because I don't write that often, so it was very satisfying. 0:12:55.916 --> 0:12:58.996 At no time was I under pressure. I waited to 0:12:58.996 --> 0:13:01.556 put the music until right before the album, and that 0:13:01.716 --> 0:13:05.796 is when playing the fingerpicking style, which I knew I 0:13:05.836 --> 0:13:07.356 was going to do this song. And because I love 0:13:07.476 --> 0:13:11.716 Jackson's records and John Prine's first album like his others, 0:13:11.716 --> 0:13:14.676 but his first album is an absolute masterpiece. And it 0:13:14.796 --> 0:13:18.396 just shows the power of hearing Bob Dylan and Joan 0:13:18.436 --> 0:13:20.316 Baez when I was a kid and picked up the guitar, 0:13:20.356 --> 0:13:22.636 and just the power of a voice in one guitar, 0:13:23.356 --> 0:13:26.196 and I played that music and John Prine was in 0:13:26.196 --> 0:13:29.236 my heart when I was writing that song. We should 0:13:29.276 --> 0:13:31.676 talk a bit about your musical background. If you came 0:13:31.716 --> 0:13:35.196 from a musical family, your mother pianist, your father this 0:13:35.356 --> 0:13:38.676 Broadway star. What did you get from each of them 0:13:38.716 --> 0:13:42.716 in terms of music? I would say that because they 0:13:42.756 --> 0:13:47.276 were a partnership. She helped select his material for his concerts, 0:13:47.276 --> 0:13:50.276 She helped get his clothes together, he had, you know, 0:13:50.356 --> 0:13:53.756 they were golfing partners. He was his rehearsal pianist, his 0:13:53.876 --> 0:13:56.396 music director, and directed the orchestra with her head playing 0:13:56.396 --> 0:14:00.756 the piano at his concerts, so I hear them together, 0:14:00.876 --> 0:14:03.276 giving me the joy of music. Both my brothers and 0:14:03.316 --> 0:14:05.676 I sitting there just in the other rooms of the 0:14:05.716 --> 0:14:08.516 house listening to my dad warm up and then practice 0:14:09.356 --> 0:14:12.156 songs for different functions that he was going to be doing, 0:14:12.196 --> 0:14:14.996 either light opera or the Broadway shows he was about 0:14:14.996 --> 0:14:17.476 to do, to practice to get used to those or 0:14:17.556 --> 0:14:20.996 his concerts. So we got a wide range of everything 0:14:21.036 --> 0:14:23.556 from Frank Sinatra to Nat King Cole and Tony Bennett 0:14:23.556 --> 0:14:28.276 to Ella Fitzgerald to Mahela Jackson to classical music. So 0:14:28.356 --> 0:14:31.356 I got the love of a wide range of music 0:14:31.476 --> 0:14:34.636 from both my folks exposing us to it at a 0:14:34.756 --> 0:14:37.876 very young age. So my mom was also a really 0:14:37.916 --> 0:14:40.956 good singer, and I wanted to play piano like she did, 0:14:41.036 --> 0:14:43.676 and took lessons for five years, and I just gave 0:14:43.756 --> 0:14:45.996 up because my teacher wouldn't let me play pop songs 0:14:45.996 --> 0:14:49.356 and I really wanted to play Motown and Beatles songs, 0:14:49.396 --> 0:14:51.316 and so I would do that at home and then 0:14:51.716 --> 0:14:53.796 lag behind when I was supposed to play my classical 0:14:53.796 --> 0:14:57.116 piece for him. So I jettisoned the piano and picked 0:14:57.196 --> 0:14:59.276 up the guitar, which I had started to learn when 0:14:59.276 --> 0:15:02.356 I was about nine years old because I emulated my 0:15:02.476 --> 0:15:06.236 camp counselors. Every summer Moll my dad was in summer Stock, 0:15:06.316 --> 0:15:09.236 we would go to this camp in the Adirondacks the 0:15:09.276 --> 0:15:12.476 way from La to Adderdics and the counselors were caught 0:15:12.556 --> 0:15:15.796 up in the folk revival of the sixties, so Joan Bayez, 0:15:16.516 --> 0:15:20.596 Pete Seeger, Peter Paul, and Mary King Centrio Odetta. Those 0:15:20.636 --> 0:15:22.876 were heroes to me, and I taught myself to play 0:15:22.916 --> 0:15:25.676 off those records, which I begged for it Christmas, along 0:15:25.676 --> 0:15:28.436 with my guitar. So I was a little folky and 0:15:29.556 --> 0:15:32.636 ended up getting more interested in the guitar after I 0:15:32.636 --> 0:15:34.716 didn't take guitar lessons with By then, I had sort 0:15:34.716 --> 0:15:38.116 of enjoyed picking things out by ear, and so I 0:15:38.196 --> 0:15:40.756 got my love of the instrument from my mom and 0:15:40.876 --> 0:15:44.556 my love of singing probably from my dad. It's interesting 0:15:44.596 --> 0:15:47.596 you sort of combine them because you're a performer like 0:15:47.676 --> 0:15:51.316 your dad, but like your mother, you're constantly on the 0:15:51.356 --> 0:15:54.156 lookout for the right song. You're the manager at the 0:15:54.196 --> 0:15:57.156 same time. Yeah, and you've helped a lot of songwriters 0:15:57.236 --> 0:16:01.516 careers by looking for these things. That's a treasure for 0:16:01.636 --> 0:16:05.516 me because I happened to love the songwriter's original demos 0:16:05.556 --> 0:16:07.716 of the songs they give me, I have a whole 0:16:07.716 --> 0:16:10.516 collection of them, but some of them wouldn't have the 0:16:10.596 --> 0:16:12.396 kind of a voice that would get a record deal. 0:16:12.476 --> 0:16:15.916 So I feel like I have an obligation to be 0:16:15.956 --> 0:16:18.636 able to make these beautiful pieces of music sing and 0:16:19.196 --> 0:16:22.676 exposed to a broader audience. I mean not only opening 0:16:22.716 --> 0:16:25.676 doors for them as a in their career, but I 0:16:25.716 --> 0:16:28.516 mean I can't imagine being such a talented songwriter and 0:16:28.556 --> 0:16:31.396 have nobody hear your tune. So you know, I come 0:16:31.436 --> 0:16:35.556 from the Judy Collins, Ella Fitzgerald, Frank Sinatra's school of 0:16:36.316 --> 0:16:39.556 interpreting other people's material and making it my own. But 0:16:39.716 --> 0:16:42.476 you're also write, Yeah, you're reminding me because I grew 0:16:42.516 --> 0:16:46.316 up in southern Ontario and Shirley Ikart used to I 0:16:46.356 --> 0:16:48.316 was too young, but my sister used to go see her. 0:16:48.396 --> 0:16:51.396 So she was an example of someone whose career you 0:16:51.476 --> 0:16:54.156 really made. Yeah, and she had a pretty good I 0:16:54.236 --> 0:16:56.276 think she had a pretty good following in Canada and 0:16:56.316 --> 0:16:59.036 she's still making it. She was still making wonderful records. 0:16:59.876 --> 0:17:02.636 But yeah, that song that she wrote kind of changed 0:17:02.716 --> 0:17:06.436 my life. But you don't sing it correctly because it's 0:17:06.516 --> 0:17:09.876 it's really something to talk about. Oh, oh, there you go. 0:17:10.276 --> 0:17:13.436 Canadians don't understand your version at all. And she didn't 0:17:13.516 --> 0:17:16.116 sing like that on the demo either, so there you go. No, 0:17:16.556 --> 0:17:18.676 that would be a very limited audience if she sang 0:17:18.756 --> 0:17:21.676 like that. Yeah, just Canadians, and there's not that many 0:17:21.716 --> 0:17:24.316 of us. I have a Canadian in my band now. 0:17:24.356 --> 0:17:28.316 He's from Winnipeg originally, but he lives in Nova, Scotia, 0:17:28.356 --> 0:17:31.716 Glenn Patcha, and he is a secret weapon of this 0:17:31.796 --> 0:17:35.036 new album. He's just an incredibly soulful keyboard player but 0:17:35.156 --> 0:17:38.796 a great singer as well. So I'm a big, big 0:17:38.836 --> 0:17:43.276 fan of Canadian musicians and comedians. We'll be right back 0:17:43.276 --> 0:17:45.836 with more from Bonnie Rate than Bruce Head Them. After 0:17:45.876 --> 0:17:52.516 a break, we're back with more from Bonnie Rate and 0:17:52.636 --> 0:17:57.396 Bruce Headlam. So was there one particular song that you 0:17:57.516 --> 0:18:00.996 listen to or you played in the guitar that sort 0:18:01.036 --> 0:18:03.236 of said to you, I want this to be my life? 0:18:03.836 --> 0:18:07.356 You know, I was plaintively playing all those joan by 0:18:07.436 --> 0:18:10.396 his songs, all my trials, everything on her first couple 0:18:10.436 --> 0:18:14.676 of albums Odetta's songs, and then I just felt hard 0:18:14.716 --> 0:18:17.756 for Bob Dylan. Taught myself to play all of those 0:18:17.796 --> 0:18:20.876 in my room and sang so earnestly, with absolutely no 0:18:21.196 --> 0:18:24.596 desire or need to play for other people. I mean, 0:18:24.636 --> 0:18:26.996 I led the songs are on the campfire at camp 0:18:26.996 --> 0:18:30.316 As an assistant counselor, I'd help put on the talent 0:18:30.356 --> 0:18:34.316 shows on Saturday nights with kids doing musicals. But playing 0:18:34.396 --> 0:18:39.396 music for me was just a solitary, wonderful emotional outlet. 0:18:39.476 --> 0:18:42.116 And I just loved the sound that the guitar makes 0:18:42.156 --> 0:18:44.276 when it's in your lap and through the sound hole 0:18:44.316 --> 0:18:47.796 and singing and playing it's just so such a release 0:18:47.836 --> 0:18:50.556 and you go so deep. So I can't really say 0:18:50.596 --> 0:18:52.156 there was one tune that made me want to go 0:18:52.196 --> 0:18:54.316 do it for a living. But one of the best 0:18:54.356 --> 0:18:58.116 inspirations was I took a semester off from college, and 0:18:58.956 --> 0:19:00.836 my folks said, Okay, you're on your own or not 0:19:00.956 --> 0:19:02.956 supporting you if you take a semester off. So I 0:19:02.996 --> 0:19:04.996 got to get a job, and I worked for the 0:19:05.036 --> 0:19:09.396 American Friend Service Committee as a transcriptionist in Philadelphia. And 0:19:09.716 --> 0:19:11.876 I went to a club and I saw some young 0:19:11.956 --> 0:19:15.556 folk singer, a woman opening for the main act at 0:19:15.556 --> 0:19:18.796 a little tiny club called a second front, and I said, 0:19:18.876 --> 0:19:21.676 you know what, I could be doing this instead of typing. 0:19:21.716 --> 0:19:24.436 You know, I like the AFSC, but come on, how 0:19:24.516 --> 0:19:26.556 much is she getting paid? So I found out I 0:19:26.556 --> 0:19:30.236 could just make pin money and support myself, and that's 0:19:30.236 --> 0:19:32.876 how my career took off. It wasn't really a desire 0:19:32.916 --> 0:19:37.276 to become a musical powerhouse or have a career in music. 0:19:37.316 --> 0:19:39.436 I was always going to be a social activist and 0:19:40.516 --> 0:19:42.516 it kind of fell into my lap just because I 0:19:42.556 --> 0:19:45.236 happen to have the inspiration of seeing this girl that's 0:19:45.396 --> 0:19:47.036 I said. But if she can do that, I can 0:19:47.076 --> 0:19:49.596 do I'm at least that good, you know. And did 0:19:49.596 --> 0:19:51.396 you make as much money as you would have as 0:19:51.436 --> 0:19:54.076 a translator? Oh, I think I've done a little bit 0:19:54.076 --> 0:19:56.556 better than I've been a better social activist as well, 0:19:56.596 --> 0:19:59.876 I had more reach. But yeah, I mean right off 0:19:59.876 --> 0:20:03.396 the bat, I was very lucky to be dating somebody 0:20:03.436 --> 0:20:06.036 that was also a manager of some great blues artists 0:20:06.036 --> 0:20:10.356 that it's the Great Sunhouse, Mississippi jo Unhurt and then 0:20:10.356 --> 0:20:13.396 Mississippi Fred McDowell, who I got to meet and hang 0:20:13.436 --> 0:20:15.756 out with all these legendary blues guys, which is why 0:20:15.756 --> 0:20:17.596 I took a semester off because a lot of them 0:20:17.596 --> 0:20:19.436 were elderly, and I knew they weren't going to live 0:20:19.476 --> 0:20:22.436 forever and I could always go back to college. So 0:20:22.956 --> 0:20:26.356 I had a kind of an opening slot with a 0:20:26.356 --> 0:20:29.796 lot of these little gigs. And you know the gas 0:20:29.876 --> 0:20:32.716 lad I opened for Fred mcdowellan and my hero John Hammond, 0:20:32.716 --> 0:20:36.356 and I had no expectation to have the guy from 0:20:36.676 --> 0:20:39.636 Newsweek come down and give me a review. And next 0:20:39.636 --> 0:20:42.116 thing I know, I was getting record deal offers. Wow. 0:20:42.436 --> 0:20:46.476 So nobody more surprised than my folks and me. Was 0:20:46.836 --> 0:20:50.396 that your first exposure to blues music? No. I became 0:20:50.436 --> 0:20:54.836 a complete blues fan at fourteen when I Joan by 0:20:55.076 --> 0:20:58.516 his Vanguard Records was like mecca for me. You know, 0:20:58.596 --> 0:21:01.196 So anything on Vanguard I wanted to listen to. And 0:21:01.236 --> 0:21:05.876 the Blues at Newport sixty four had Reverend Gary Davis, 0:21:05.956 --> 0:21:09.636 John Lee Hooker, John Hammond, Dave Van Ronk, n McGee, 0:21:09.676 --> 0:21:14.956 Sonny Terry, the Great Mississippi, John Hurt, and Reverend Gary Davis. 0:21:14.996 --> 0:21:17.556 It was a great record, and I taught myself to play. 0:21:17.556 --> 0:21:20.476 I'd never heard anything like John Hurt. I didn't know 0:21:20.556 --> 0:21:22.556 white guys could sing the blues. And I was a 0:21:22.636 --> 0:21:26.316 huge fan of Chuck Barry, Little, Richard Pat's Domino and 0:21:26.476 --> 0:21:29.756 Ray Charles. So I was already in the R and 0:21:29.796 --> 0:21:32.756 B soul music lane like the Beatles were in the 0:21:32.836 --> 0:21:36.356 Rolling Stones. And when the Stones turned, everybody onto Muddy 0:21:36.356 --> 0:21:39.596 Waters and how and Wolf. I signed up really just 0:21:39.716 --> 0:21:41.996 like the rest of us. You know, Now, when did 0:21:41.996 --> 0:21:46.036 the slide guitar start for you? I was about fifteen. 0:21:46.316 --> 0:21:49.396 I had heard about bottle like guitaris to read sing 0:21:49.436 --> 0:21:51.996 Out magazine. I didn't have income to be able to 0:21:52.036 --> 0:21:55.236 go buy records or because I didn't take guitar lessons. 0:21:55.316 --> 0:21:57.796 I did know though, that the that you tuned the 0:21:57.796 --> 0:22:00.476 guitar to an open tuning because my grandpa taught me 0:22:00.996 --> 0:22:03.436 some hymns on a Hawaiian lap steel, and he said, 0:22:03.436 --> 0:22:05.836 all you have to do is move the bar, you know, 0:22:05.956 --> 0:22:07.636 from this position to this and you get the four 0:22:07.716 --> 0:22:11.476 cord in the five corner. It's a cake. So I 0:22:11.556 --> 0:22:14.796 soaked the label off a chorused and cold bottle to 0:22:14.836 --> 0:22:16.956 put on my middle finger, which is not actually very 0:22:16.956 --> 0:22:20.836 practical for slide, and I just tried to imitate what 0:22:20.916 --> 0:22:22.956 I heard on the records. When I was about fourteen 0:22:22.996 --> 0:22:25.676 or fifteen years old, including Little Red Rooster by the 0:22:25.756 --> 0:22:28.436 Rolling Stones. Now we should say bb King said you 0:22:28.476 --> 0:22:32.516 were the best, I think, the best damn slide player around. 0:22:32.756 --> 0:22:36.436 So you've got lots of ploddeds. Yeah, I can. I 0:22:36.436 --> 0:22:38.516 can go to my grave with that one right there. 0:22:38.836 --> 0:22:40.956 I mean, if I never got another review, that was 0:22:40.996 --> 0:22:44.796 the one that I was not expecting any treasure. And 0:22:44.876 --> 0:22:47.676 you mentioned you use the slide of your second finger, 0:22:47.876 --> 0:22:52.156 which is not unheard of, but it's unusual. Yeah, it's 0:22:52.156 --> 0:22:55.556 not optimum because actually it's great to be able to 0:22:55.916 --> 0:22:59.996 finger the other parts of the chords when you're not 0:23:00.036 --> 0:23:02.756 just playing the slide, you know, So it's it's it's 0:23:02.796 --> 0:23:05.556 more limiting. But I had never seen anyone do it 0:23:05.596 --> 0:23:07.436 in La. I grew up in La and we used 0:23:07.596 --> 0:23:09.636 what we call flip the bird all that time when 0:23:09.676 --> 0:23:12.036 I was a tough little tomboy and I had older brother, 0:23:12.116 --> 0:23:16.276 and I would do this this particular position with my hand, 0:23:16.996 --> 0:23:20.956 which isolate your middle finger, and that's the finger that 0:23:21.036 --> 0:23:23.876 seemed really natural to me to put the slide on. 0:23:23.956 --> 0:23:26.836 And in fact you hold I won't make that finger, 0:23:26.916 --> 0:23:30.316 but you hold the bottleneck on in the position that's 0:23:30.356 --> 0:23:33.996 actually the position I'm talking about so well, we've now 0:23:34.036 --> 0:23:37.396 discovered the secret of you or great slide work flipping 0:23:37.396 --> 0:23:41.076 the bird to your brother, which I showcased on the 0:23:41.396 --> 0:23:45.236 David Frost Afternoon Show, my first show ever on TV. 0:23:45.436 --> 0:23:48.076 My bass player of freebo and I like in seventy 0:23:48.076 --> 0:23:50.436 two or something like that, and Robert Klein was the 0:23:50.476 --> 0:23:53.196 guest host, and I had opened for him at a 0:23:53.316 --> 0:23:56.356 university show and he played harmonic as everybody knows. He 0:23:56.396 --> 0:23:59.276 had a great bit about I can't stop my leg 0:23:59.356 --> 0:24:02.516 and a spoof on being a blues guy, and he 0:24:02.596 --> 0:24:05.276 asked me about it, and I remember being smart alecky 0:24:05.316 --> 0:24:07.476 and I was holding my finger like that the whole 0:24:07.516 --> 0:24:10.476 time in this day even Frost show. And then I 0:24:10.476 --> 0:24:12.876 went home and asked my friends if they saw it. 0:24:12.916 --> 0:24:14.756 They went, oh, yeah, I can't believe you did that. 0:24:15.476 --> 0:24:19.836 Ah youth. Yeah, you surprised yourself by getting a record 0:24:19.836 --> 0:24:24.396 deal and then you had these critically lauded albums through 0:24:24.436 --> 0:24:27.396 the seventies. Tell me what was that time like for you. 0:24:28.196 --> 0:24:30.756 I was having a blast. I mean I built my 0:24:30.796 --> 0:24:33.796 following from opening for my heroes and folk clubs to 0:24:33.916 --> 0:24:36.836 being on festivals and being on the one or the 0:24:37.036 --> 0:24:40.436 opening act at three o'clock and next thing, and as back, 0:24:41.036 --> 0:24:44.396 eventually being asked a headline a couple of nights, and 0:24:44.436 --> 0:24:47.356 then I drew poorly, and then I drew better, and 0:24:47.396 --> 0:24:50.556 then I would open for Cat Stevens or James Taylor, 0:24:50.596 --> 0:24:54.116 and you know the benefit of having someone manage and 0:24:54.156 --> 0:24:57.476 booked me that was already had acts that he could 0:24:57.476 --> 0:24:59.196 just call up. And I was cheap, you know. I 0:24:59.236 --> 0:25:01.596 played my own guitar, didn't need a band. I played 0:25:01.596 --> 0:25:04.156 a little blues, I played a little folk music, so 0:25:04.236 --> 0:25:07.996 I was not threatening to the main act. And next thing, 0:25:07.996 --> 0:25:10.156 you know, I was building my own following so slow 0:25:10.156 --> 0:25:13.156 and steady. I got the record deal that came out. 0:25:13.436 --> 0:25:15.916 I couldn't afford a band till after my third album, 0:25:16.676 --> 0:25:19.916 and it was really touring most of the time to 0:25:19.916 --> 0:25:23.956 build up my following, and mostly in colleges. So I'm 0:25:24.116 --> 0:25:27.636 feeling the harvest of that, all that legwork and giving 0:25:27.716 --> 0:25:30.876 up personal life, you know, time at home, because people 0:25:30.876 --> 0:25:33.396 are still coming to see me, you know, five decades later, 0:25:33.396 --> 0:25:35.396 and a lot of them write letters and say I 0:25:35.436 --> 0:25:39.236 saw you at Case Western Reserve in nineteen seventy six 0:25:39.316 --> 0:25:41.316 or I was you know, I was in the audience 0:25:41.316 --> 0:25:44.796 in Schwanksville, Pennsylvania. And you know, all of these people 0:25:44.836 --> 0:25:48.356 that spent their twenties and thirties, they've stayed loyal with me. 0:25:48.396 --> 0:25:52.476 So my recollection of that time is six albums in 0:25:52.596 --> 0:25:55.596 seven years and ten months on the road. Wow, and 0:25:55.756 --> 0:25:57.996 one woman and a bunch of guys. And I was 0:25:58.076 --> 0:26:00.676 like Gidget. You know, they told Gidget she couldn't surf, 0:26:00.756 --> 0:26:04.236 and she was eventually accepted by the guy's community. And 0:26:04.316 --> 0:26:06.396 I felt that way about being a leader of a 0:26:06.436 --> 0:26:08.756 band and playing lead guitar. I don't think of you 0:26:08.796 --> 0:26:13.196 as a Gidget type. Maybe a gidget who's flipping off everybody. Yeah, 0:26:13.196 --> 0:26:15.916 I went from Gidget when I was thirteen, or Soda 0:26:16.516 --> 0:26:18.876 Amanda Blake I thought was really great because she had 0:26:18.916 --> 0:26:21.516 red hair and she didn't have to get married and 0:26:21.596 --> 0:26:24.556 she owned a saloon, so that I was not lost 0:26:24.636 --> 0:26:26.996 on me. I went, you know what, I'm not the 0:26:27.036 --> 0:26:30.076 wife and mother type, but I'm just gonna It was 0:26:30.116 --> 0:26:32.356 a dream come true to be handed a career like that, 0:26:32.396 --> 0:26:34.636 and I've never had a day where I don't know 0:26:34.676 --> 0:26:39.996 how lucky I am. You also showcased some female composers 0:26:40.396 --> 0:26:42.916 earlier in your career. People who don't have a big 0:26:42.916 --> 0:26:49.236 following now like Sippy Wallace and Yvonne Blake and clips Arose. 0:26:50.076 --> 0:26:52.276 Was that delivered on your part? Was this something that 0:26:52.356 --> 0:26:55.676 interested you about blues history? Well? To me as a 0:26:55.716 --> 0:26:59.196 blues fan, the classic blues singers were just all fantastic 0:26:59.236 --> 0:27:03.316 and so different. But I loved that Sippy wrote songs 0:27:03.396 --> 0:27:05.636 from kind of a as a young feminist in my 0:27:05.716 --> 0:27:09.916 early twenties, you know, in that late lateeen to hear 0:27:09.996 --> 0:27:11.676 you can make me do what you want to do. 0:27:11.716 --> 0:27:13.796 But you got to know how, you know, it was 0:27:13.836 --> 0:27:17.396 just so saucy and women be wise, keep your mouth shut, 0:27:17.596 --> 0:27:20.636 don't advertise your man. You know, all the feminists were going. 0:27:20.716 --> 0:27:22.756 You know, how could you say that sisters would never 0:27:22.876 --> 0:27:25.356 steal each other's man? I said, what what world are 0:27:25.396 --> 0:27:28.156 you living in? You know? You know, if you talk 0:27:28.196 --> 0:27:30.316 about your baby, you tell me he's so fine. Don't 0:27:30.316 --> 0:27:32.996 be surprised if I come up check him out sometime. 0:27:33.116 --> 0:27:36.436 You know. So Sippy, I had no idea that she 0:27:36.556 --> 0:27:39.276 was still alive, and so to actually record her songs 0:27:39.276 --> 0:27:42.196 because I loved her music above all the classic blues 0:27:42.236 --> 0:27:45.316 singers and find out that she was alive and become 0:27:45.396 --> 0:27:47.596 friends with her at the ann Arbor Blues and Jazz 0:27:47.636 --> 0:27:51.356 Festival and go on and tour together for fifteen years. 0:27:51.676 --> 0:27:54.756 It was just an incredible gift. So, you know, something 0:27:54.796 --> 0:27:58.116 that I had an intention, it was musically driven, ended 0:27:58.196 --> 0:28:01.356 up being a benefit culturally for me and for her 0:28:01.556 --> 0:28:05.796 just to expose her to a wider, wider audience. And 0:28:06.356 --> 0:28:08.316 that is a great joy for me to take people 0:28:08.316 --> 0:28:11.236 that are under a shaded I mean, Clypso music is 0:28:11.436 --> 0:28:14.276 one of my other favorites and Clipso Rose is a 0:28:14.356 --> 0:28:16.996 huge star in that world. And Van Dyke Parks is 0:28:17.036 --> 0:28:19.476 the one that turned me onto that song. So on 0:28:19.476 --> 0:28:21.636 the record, I was working with him in Little George 0:28:21.676 --> 0:28:24.116 and you know we did that song. What's she going 0:28:24.156 --> 0:28:26.396 to do? If I can't repeat it here? But there's 0:28:26.396 --> 0:28:29.196 a little bit of some double untender lyrics, as it 0:28:29.476 --> 0:28:32.636 often is in the blues and Clypso music. What was 0:28:32.676 --> 0:28:34.796 Sippy Wallace like? What was she like as a person. 0:28:35.596 --> 0:28:40.196 She had an incredibly great laugh which she loved to laugh, 0:28:40.356 --> 0:28:44.156 left a kid around, but she was very religious. And 0:28:44.236 --> 0:28:47.556 you know I was meeting on her sixties or late sixties. 0:28:47.556 --> 0:28:50.716 She had recovered from a stroke and she was you 0:28:50.876 --> 0:28:52.636 had been in a wheelchair for a while, but was 0:28:52.676 --> 0:28:56.076 walking slowly, and she was only going to do gospel 0:28:56.156 --> 0:28:59.276 music after she stopped. You know, the whole blues industry 0:28:59.276 --> 0:29:02.556 went downhill when there was the depression and the Second 0:29:02.596 --> 0:29:05.036 World War. They needed the vinyl for other things, and 0:29:05.196 --> 0:29:08.076 the black music industry was the one that took the hit. 0:29:08.676 --> 0:29:11.876 So she really was settled on this plane. In church, 0:29:12.356 --> 0:29:14.516 she played organ and piano in the church and led 0:29:14.556 --> 0:29:18.196 the choir. And she heard that I had done one 0:29:18.196 --> 0:29:20.876 of her songs, and her manager, who had kind of 0:29:20.916 --> 0:29:23.596 brought her out of retirement and nursed her back to 0:29:24.356 --> 0:29:26.596 you know, the idea of playing in public again after 0:29:26.636 --> 0:29:29.396 her stroke. She was only going to do a gospel 0:29:29.436 --> 0:29:31.436 song at the anne of her Blues and Jazz festival, 0:29:31.796 --> 0:29:34.196 and I was going to pay tribute to her. And 0:29:34.236 --> 0:29:38.956 then we rehearsed it in my trailer. We were soprano, saxophone, 0:29:38.956 --> 0:29:42.156 and my guitar singing her own song, and she started 0:29:42.156 --> 0:29:44.556 to rock back and forth, and she said, well, maybe 0:29:44.556 --> 0:29:49.676 I'll just do that one. So she was playful and wise, 0:29:49.956 --> 0:29:53.356 and I asked her lots of questions about men, about 0:29:53.396 --> 0:29:55.076 what it was like to be on the road when 0:29:55.076 --> 0:29:57.836 she was a young woman with mostly men. I mean, 0:29:57.876 --> 0:30:00.036 did she get hit on? Did they treat her with respect? 0:30:00.396 --> 0:30:02.756 What was it like to be widowed by her husband 0:30:02.796 --> 0:30:06.196 dying so relatively early? And did she miss being married? 0:30:06.276 --> 0:30:08.716 And you know, I asked her about Jesus and asked 0:30:08.716 --> 0:30:11.916 her about racism and Jim Crow, And it was an 0:30:11.956 --> 0:30:16.356 incredible to have her as my kind of like a 0:30:16.436 --> 0:30:19.836 grandmother or an elderly aunt, to give me a window 0:30:19.876 --> 0:30:24.076 on her world musically and culturally. Did it help you 0:30:24.156 --> 0:30:26.156 in those years when you were the woman on the 0:30:26.236 --> 0:30:29.876 road usually opening for men and I'm sure getting hit on? 0:30:29.996 --> 0:30:32.996 And well, I was just my own boss, you know. 0:30:33.116 --> 0:30:35.436 I grew up with my dad having to my dad 0:30:35.556 --> 0:30:38.636 mostly waiting to get another show. I mean, would he 0:30:38.676 --> 0:30:42.036 would steady book himself in the summertime on the very 0:30:42.116 --> 0:30:46.756 lucrative one star at touring in Carrousel, Oklahoma, Pajama game 0:30:47.116 --> 0:30:50.356 shows that there there's a circuit of regional theater in 0:30:50.356 --> 0:30:52.796 the summer, it's called summer Stock, And he would do 0:30:52.836 --> 0:30:55.156 eight shows a week and for three months and just 0:30:55.196 --> 0:30:57.196 be out there no air conditioning. Most of them are 0:30:57.236 --> 0:31:00.636 intense in the round. But basically he didn't have a 0:31:00.716 --> 0:31:03.676 chance to get a new He couldn't generate a new 0:31:03.756 --> 0:31:07.316 show for himself. And I just noticed that, and I said, 0:31:07.356 --> 0:31:08.956 you know what I'm gonna If I'm gonna do this, 0:31:09.876 --> 0:31:12.356 I want to have total control over what I record 0:31:12.436 --> 0:31:15.316 and when I released the record, and what the ticket 0:31:15.316 --> 0:31:18.396 prices will be, and you know who I opened for 0:31:18.476 --> 0:31:21.956 and who opens for me. And so I was much 0:31:21.996 --> 0:31:25.356 more hands on self managing. You know, I needed a 0:31:25.356 --> 0:31:28.236 booking agent and a tour manager, but the rest of 0:31:28.236 --> 0:31:31.316 it I handled. So I think Sippy was more of 0:31:31.436 --> 0:31:34.116 a woman of her time. She was very young when 0:31:34.156 --> 0:31:37.196 she started, and then I think guys just took care 0:31:37.196 --> 0:31:39.916 of her, you know, the guys, the music directors, but 0:31:40.156 --> 0:31:43.196 they were always very respectful. She didn't have I think 0:31:43.236 --> 0:31:45.876 she probably got married early to be able to be protected. 0:31:47.316 --> 0:31:49.396 You talked about sort of being in control of your 0:31:49.396 --> 0:31:53.236 own career, but then in the eighties your career took 0:31:53.276 --> 0:31:55.876 this well, I'm not sure your career even took a dive. 0:31:56.036 --> 0:32:00.476 Maybe record companies just changed their ways. But Warner Brothers 0:32:00.556 --> 0:32:03.916 dropped you at the same time that I think Prince 0:32:04.036 --> 0:32:07.436 was interested in working with you. Well within a few 0:32:07.476 --> 0:32:10.316 years later. Yeah, I mean answer, I kind of veered 0:32:10.356 --> 0:32:12.476 off when you asked me how I felt about the 0:32:12.636 --> 0:32:14.956 seventies and my albums. You know, I would have liked 0:32:14.996 --> 0:32:18.596 to have them promoted more. I mean, we always went 0:32:18.596 --> 0:32:20.276 out of my way to have a good single on 0:32:20.316 --> 0:32:22.916 the record, But I think because I didn't have a 0:32:22.996 --> 0:32:26.556 manager and I didn't want to be directed at all 0:32:26.636 --> 0:32:28.596 or told what to wear, and I didn't care about 0:32:28.636 --> 0:32:30.756 having a hit single. I mean, my deal with Warners 0:32:30.796 --> 0:32:34.156 was predicated on being an album artist. So it's something 0:32:34.196 --> 0:32:37.676 that an Americana music now it's just not even thought of. 0:32:37.756 --> 0:32:40.796 You know, if you straddle genres and you know you 0:32:40.796 --> 0:32:42.116 don't want to have a you don't need to have 0:32:42.116 --> 0:32:45.036 a commercial single off your record. That's people don't even 0:32:45.076 --> 0:32:47.996 blink now. But back then they wanted you to be 0:32:48.076 --> 0:32:51.516 able to promote a record. And when the record business 0:32:51.596 --> 0:32:55.956 took off with Rumors and Thriller in Miami, Vice Soundtrack, 0:32:56.356 --> 0:32:59.676 these were billion selling records and those of us that 0:32:59.756 --> 0:33:04.076 were more moderate sellers just got pushed a little bit 0:33:04.116 --> 0:33:06.236 to the side and they'd rather sign somebody else that 0:33:06.276 --> 0:33:08.276 could bring in a more bang for their buck. They 0:33:08.276 --> 0:33:12.756 were also absorbed big corporations, you know, Warner elector Atlantic, consolidated, 0:33:13.276 --> 0:33:16.836 Warner Communications took over. There was a different set of 0:33:16.836 --> 0:33:21.956 priorities in the eighties, so you know, they dropped t 0:33:22.156 --> 0:33:26.276 Bone Burnett and Van Morrison and Arlo Guthrie and me, 0:33:26.436 --> 0:33:28.836 and you know, we weren't bringing in the big bucks. 0:33:28.876 --> 0:33:32.236 So the eighties weren't real friendly to my kind of music. 0:33:32.676 --> 0:33:35.756 It wasn't a great political decade. There was this war 0:33:35.796 --> 0:33:39.516 in Central America. It was alert to the right politically 0:33:39.996 --> 0:33:43.476 and the consolidation of the record business, and it wasn't 0:33:43.516 --> 0:33:47.156 until the end of the decade that the college radio 0:33:47.276 --> 0:33:51.836 and album oriented rock and VH one came along. And 0:33:52.036 --> 0:33:55.996 you know, Tracy Chapman had a number one record, Edie Brickell, 0:33:56.316 --> 0:34:00.036 Robert Cray, the Fabulous Thunderbirds. My kind of music was 0:34:00.076 --> 0:34:03.036 having hit a hit play, so I would it was 0:34:03.076 --> 0:34:04.756 a good time for me to come back into the 0:34:04.796 --> 0:34:08.796 four but I never expected to have that huge success. 0:34:08.796 --> 0:34:11.676 I don't think anybody did. But you were back playing 0:34:11.756 --> 0:34:14.036 solo shows, is that right? You didn't have a band 0:34:14.076 --> 0:34:16.876 at that point. I played with my guitar player who 0:34:17.036 --> 0:34:19.276 backed up on bass and sang harmony, and we would 0:34:19.316 --> 0:34:21.316 do that in the months when we weren't with the 0:34:21.356 --> 0:34:25.796 band in the summer and Prince approached me a couple 0:34:25.796 --> 0:34:29.036 of years after I'd been dropped because I had a 0:34:29.076 --> 0:34:31.356 record ready to come out and a tour with Stevie 0:34:31.396 --> 0:34:35.356 Ray Vaughan, I had to cancel it, and he said, 0:34:35.396 --> 0:34:37.116 you know you were treated badly, why don't you come 0:34:37.116 --> 0:34:39.116 over with Paisley Park and make a record with me? 0:34:39.156 --> 0:34:41.756 And we ended up trying to work on some things together, 0:34:41.836 --> 0:34:44.916 but he had done the tracks all of himself in 0:34:44.996 --> 0:34:47.316 a key that I don't sing in and lyrics that 0:34:47.396 --> 0:34:50.476 I couldn't relate to. So we were going to work 0:34:50.516 --> 0:34:53.196 together again in the future, but our schedules just didn't 0:34:53.196 --> 0:34:56.116 work out. Was he a nice guy to work with 0:34:56.316 --> 0:34:59.436 despite everything being in the wrong key. He was really 0:34:59.556 --> 0:35:02.436 as fascinating as you read about him. He's very shy, 0:35:02.436 --> 0:35:04.516 you know, when he ate dinner with him, he was like, 0:35:05.676 --> 0:35:08.196 I felt uncomfortable because I'm pretty extroverted and he was 0:35:08.276 --> 0:35:12.116 just really self conscious about looking down at his food 0:35:12.116 --> 0:35:13.636 and putting the food in his mouth. So it was 0:35:13.716 --> 0:35:17.596 kind of endearing. But what a badass though. You know. 0:35:17.596 --> 0:35:22.356 It was just the combination of shy and sexually so forthright, 0:35:22.636 --> 0:35:25.836 and you know the thing that all of us musicians 0:35:25.836 --> 0:35:28.996 have in common is our love of music. So that's 0:35:29.036 --> 0:35:31.716 what we just every time that we got together was 0:35:31.876 --> 0:35:35.676 a couple of long evenings in LA and once in Minneapolis, 0:35:35.716 --> 0:35:39.596 just huge floor to ceiling screens watching this. You know, 0:35:39.756 --> 0:35:42.996 Staples Singers and Sly and the family Stone. I mean, 0:35:43.036 --> 0:35:45.916 we just were Stone music fans, and that's what we 0:35:45.956 --> 0:35:49.156 had in common. He was a great, great guy. Did 0:35:49.156 --> 0:35:51.796 you ever just sit across from him and play guitar? 0:35:52.196 --> 0:35:54.516 I played guitar on some of the tracks that he 0:35:54.556 --> 0:35:57.396 had put together for us to poss for me to try, 0:35:57.676 --> 0:36:00.556 and so I did that, but it was a thwarted 0:36:00.836 --> 0:36:03.436 It wasn't a fully realized collaboration because I told him 0:36:03.476 --> 0:36:06.276 I appreciated the interest, but I wanted to be fifty 0:36:06.316 --> 0:36:09.316 fifty and and there's some things happen were you know, 0:36:09.396 --> 0:36:11.516 I was injured and I had to get over a 0:36:11.556 --> 0:36:14.076 thumb injury. So we had to postpone the sessions, and 0:36:14.276 --> 0:36:16.876 so he went ahead and just got some songs from 0:36:16.876 --> 0:36:18.716 his vault or wrote some songs that he thought I 0:36:18.756 --> 0:36:22.916 would relate to, but they just weren't in my wheelhouse. So, 0:36:23.476 --> 0:36:25.676 you know, just I wish we could have worked together 0:36:25.716 --> 0:36:28.836 because I had great admiration for him. We have to 0:36:28.836 --> 0:36:30.876 take a quick break, but we'll be right back with 0:36:30.956 --> 0:36:37.436 more from Bonnie Ray. We're back with the rest of 0:36:37.436 --> 0:36:41.276 Bruce's conversation with Bonnie Ray. I do want to talk 0:36:41.276 --> 0:36:43.836 about some of the songwriters you've worked with and just 0:36:43.916 --> 0:36:47.596 your first encounters, and I have to start with John Prine. 0:36:47.916 --> 0:36:50.196 Can you tell me about meeting him or encountering his 0:36:50.276 --> 0:36:54.476 songs for the first time. Yeah. I heard his first 0:36:54.476 --> 0:36:57.076 album on Atlantic, his debut record, and I was just 0:36:57.276 --> 0:37:00.356 absolutely floored. And I don't know when in the timeline, 0:37:00.956 --> 0:37:02.876 but I was playing the Gaslight and he was playing 0:37:02.916 --> 0:37:05.556 The Bitter End, And we ended up meeting in New 0:37:05.636 --> 0:37:08.796 York City in the village, and soon after we both 0:37:08.836 --> 0:37:12.276 played the Philadelphia Folk Festival together, and we just forged 0:37:12.276 --> 0:37:14.876 a friendship right away that was absolutely immediate. He was 0:37:14.876 --> 0:37:16.396 a fan of mine, I was a fan of his. 0:37:16.876 --> 0:37:19.836 Who was Angel the first song you did his? Yes, 0:37:20.316 --> 0:37:22.036 I knew of the first time I heard that song 0:37:22.076 --> 0:37:24.476 on his album, that I'd be cutting that song, and 0:37:24.516 --> 0:37:28.076 I just just astonished that someone of his age could 0:37:28.116 --> 0:37:31.756 crawl inside that woman who in that long time marriage 0:37:32.436 --> 0:37:36.956 and just so beautifully and succinctly. I mean, he's so 0:37:37.036 --> 0:37:40.676 much has been written, especially since he passed, But I 0:37:40.756 --> 0:37:44.276 mean the masterpiece of economy of that song, and how 0:37:44.316 --> 0:37:48.556 every line is just laden with meaning and you don't 0:37:48.796 --> 0:37:51.196 need to go in. It doesn't have to be a 0:37:51.236 --> 0:37:55.436 long story. It's just immediately there. And I sing that 0:37:55.516 --> 0:37:59.196 song for all the women when I was a young woman, 0:37:59.276 --> 0:38:02.036 for all the women that are stuck in marriages and 0:38:02.116 --> 0:38:05.156 can't leave if they wanted to try a different kind 0:38:05.156 --> 0:38:08.356 of life, or get a job, or have someone to 0:38:08.396 --> 0:38:12.036 talk to, just not I remember seeing the film The 0:38:12.076 --> 0:38:17.236 Bridges of Madison County and thinking that so perfectly described 0:38:17.276 --> 0:38:20.756 what Angel from Montgomery was about without giving it away, 0:38:20.796 --> 0:38:23.596 that moment when she makes a decision to not follow 0:38:23.596 --> 0:38:28.716 her bliss. So I sing the song for my mom's generation. 0:38:28.836 --> 0:38:31.076 I sing the song for women around the world that 0:38:31.196 --> 0:38:34.116 don't have the choice to get stay single, or get 0:38:34.116 --> 0:38:37.116 out of a bad marriage, or get an education. So 0:38:37.196 --> 0:38:41.836 it's taken on very mythic proportions for me. Another writer 0:38:41.876 --> 0:38:44.676 I wanted to ask you about was Richard Thompson. Oh, 0:38:44.716 --> 0:38:47.476 I'm so glad he's another guy that how could he 0:38:47.516 --> 0:38:50.236 write that dimming of the day in his early twenties. 0:38:50.396 --> 0:38:53.836 You know, give me a break. He's one of the 0:38:53.876 --> 0:38:57.956 greatest ones we have. I'm a huge fan of his, 0:38:58.156 --> 0:39:02.716 and he's as fascinating a person. He has a wonderful 0:39:02.756 --> 0:39:06.596 memoir that he just put out, and it's really his 0:39:06.756 --> 0:39:13.356 Sufi religion, his path going to the Sufi spirituality. Mixed 0:39:13.396 --> 0:39:16.316 in with all of it, the wonderful behind the scenes 0:39:16.876 --> 0:39:20.556 of what it was like to be creating an entirely 0:39:20.676 --> 0:39:24.876 new form of music by electrifying and making originals of 0:39:24.996 --> 0:39:28.956 Celtic traditions. It's just there's nobody like him. He's absolutely brilliant. 0:39:29.476 --> 0:39:31.956 You know. It's one of my fantasies that you do 0:39:31.996 --> 0:39:36.276 an entire album of Richard Thompson songs. What a cool idea, 0:39:36.796 --> 0:39:39.316 you know, down where the Drunkard's roll or walking on 0:39:39.356 --> 0:39:43.516 the wire, misunderstood persuasion. I mean, there's so many that 0:39:43.596 --> 0:39:47.676 I love. You could do fifty two vincent black Lightning 0:39:47.716 --> 0:39:50.276 from the point of view the woman. Oh my god, 0:39:50.756 --> 0:39:53.436 that would be very original. That would be mighty, wouldn't it. 0:39:53.756 --> 0:39:56.596 I mean, it's a woman with red hair and a motorcycle. 0:39:56.636 --> 0:39:58.916 I don't I'd have to sing about a guy with 0:39:59.036 --> 0:40:01.676 a black hair on the motorcycle, but you could do 0:40:01.716 --> 0:40:05.156 it anyway you want it. That's my elevator, pitch Well suggested, 0:40:05.236 --> 0:40:08.236 because I just think he's phenomenal and he keeps growing 0:40:08.276 --> 0:40:10.876 and he's so a thick and if it was just 0:40:10.956 --> 0:40:14.156 his songwriting, that would be enough to put him in 0:40:14.196 --> 0:40:18.676 the top. But his singing style and his topics and 0:40:18.836 --> 0:40:23.716 his guitar playing, I mean, really thank you for reminding 0:40:23.756 --> 0:40:25.876 me to so I could just live in that moment 0:40:26.076 --> 0:40:29.276 with him. And you're a big Mose Allison fan. I 0:40:29.316 --> 0:40:32.436 am a huge Mose Allison fan. Now have you done 0:40:32.476 --> 0:40:35.956 a lot of his songs? Or I've only done Everybody's 0:40:35.996 --> 0:40:37.916 Crying Mercy? I did that on my third album in 0:40:38.036 --> 0:40:42.716 seventy three, and I had become a headliner. I first 0:40:42.756 --> 0:40:46.796 opened for Jackson Brown my first national tour in seventy four, 0:40:47.516 --> 0:40:50.876 one woman in thirteen guys in both bands on one bus. 0:40:51.316 --> 0:40:55.396 It was fifty cities of that. It was incredible. But 0:40:55.796 --> 0:40:58.676 after that I was able to headline and I invited 0:40:58.756 --> 0:41:01.396 Tom Waits to come and open the tour. So and 0:41:01.476 --> 0:41:04.356 somewhere in there I asked Mose Allison if he would 0:41:04.356 --> 0:41:07.196 like to do It was either three or six weeks together, 0:41:07.276 --> 0:41:10.156 probably three of colleges, and I know it was an 0:41:10.236 --> 0:41:14.156 unusual idea, but he I said, Mose, you know we could, 0:41:14.356 --> 0:41:16.236 You could make good money. I'll give you, I'll pay 0:41:16.236 --> 0:41:18.916 you more than what you're asking, and you can open 0:41:18.996 --> 0:41:21.396 up this whole market that needs to know about you. 0:41:21.876 --> 0:41:24.796 And he said yes, so selfishly. Just to be able 0:41:24.796 --> 0:41:26.556 to sit in the wings and listen to him every night, 0:41:26.556 --> 0:41:29.116 it was incredible and we were very good friends all 0:41:29.116 --> 0:41:32.596 the way through his life. I hear ideas of his 0:41:32.756 --> 0:41:36.476 sometimes in your music, including on this album, but other 0:41:36.556 --> 0:41:38.916 than the one song I Know You Haven't you haven't 0:41:38.916 --> 0:41:42.236 covered him. My older brother brought a record of his one. 0:41:42.316 --> 0:41:45.716 You know how you idolize your siblings sometimes when they're older. 0:41:45.716 --> 0:41:48.836 And he was dating someone from Bennington College and we 0:41:48.996 --> 0:41:52.276 came back to Christmas vacation and he brought the Birds 0:41:52.356 --> 0:41:56.836 and Freddie Hubbard and John Lee Hooker and later Jimmy Hendrix, 0:41:56.876 --> 0:41:59.636 but he brought Mose Allison's record. That's where I first 0:41:59.636 --> 0:42:02.476 heard it. I was like sixteen, and I just couldn't 0:42:02.476 --> 0:42:04.396 wait to be a beatneck and go to New York 0:42:04.436 --> 0:42:08.636 and hang out with guys with turtlenecks and berets and goatees, 0:42:10.116 --> 0:42:12.356 and I just think Mose is the coolest blues guy 0:42:12.356 --> 0:42:16.556 I've ever heard in my life. Incredible. So the eighties, 0:42:16.916 --> 0:42:20.236 your career, or Warner's career wasn't going so well, let 0:42:20.236 --> 0:42:22.036 me put it that way, and then you had this 0:42:22.196 --> 0:42:27.036 incredible tear when you went to Capital and they signed 0:42:27.036 --> 0:42:29.076 you for some small deal for one hundred and fifty 0:42:29.116 --> 0:42:31.596 thousand or something, not even that one hundred twenty five 0:42:31.636 --> 0:42:34.596 I think. But all we needed was the budget. That 0:42:34.716 --> 0:42:37.396 was the budget we were going to make the record with. Well, 0:42:37.716 --> 0:42:40.236 that was the best one hundred twenty five thousand dollars 0:42:40.316 --> 0:42:43.796 Capitol Records ever spent. Well what did they know? I mean, 0:42:43.836 --> 0:42:45.596 they knew that if we were going to make a 0:42:45.636 --> 0:42:48.116 really simple record that it doesn't cost you know, I 0:42:48.156 --> 0:42:50.876 just make records live mostly, it doesn't shouldn't cost that 0:42:50.956 --> 0:42:53.236 much to make. I don't do big productions or anything. 0:42:53.756 --> 0:42:57.756 And Joe Smith signed me to Warners in seventy one, 0:42:57.796 --> 0:43:00.796 and he signed me to Capitol and eighty eight, So 0:43:01.036 --> 0:43:03.556 that was part of it. But to have a new label, 0:43:04.476 --> 0:43:07.196 some of which are people that some of the people 0:43:07.276 --> 0:43:10.636 came over from Warners with Joe, but they had something 0:43:10.636 --> 0:43:14.196 to prove. They knew that I was really changing my 0:43:14.236 --> 0:43:16.276 life and wanting to make a really great record, and 0:43:17.036 --> 0:43:20.156 my pairing with Don was was real kismet. It was great. 0:43:20.636 --> 0:43:24.116 What else changed you think that made it suddenly possible 0:43:24.156 --> 0:43:27.076 for people to hear you in a different way. Well, 0:43:27.196 --> 0:43:29.276 Number one, I think it was a switch and label 0:43:29.316 --> 0:43:32.396 and have a very enthusiastic team that had something to prove. 0:43:33.916 --> 0:43:36.556 H one and was just starting. And I would have 0:43:36.676 --> 0:43:40.116 never been played on MTV because I was forty years 0:43:40.116 --> 0:43:43.516 old so and not a babe. So VH one needed 0:43:43.596 --> 0:43:48.156 some new artists to showcase their new adult channel. You know, 0:43:48.716 --> 0:43:50.636 I don't know. You can't call it an adult channel. 0:43:50.636 --> 0:43:52.356 What can you call it mature? I don't know what 0:43:52.356 --> 0:43:54.676 it could call it. It's just not the kids channel. 0:43:55.556 --> 0:43:58.476 I think the fact that I got sober and eighty 0:43:58.516 --> 0:44:03.676 seven and was much healthier and happier and had written 0:44:03.716 --> 0:44:06.036 some songs, and you know, I had a particularly good 0:44:06.076 --> 0:44:08.916 batch of tunes and a great partner and Don was 0:44:09.836 --> 0:44:12.676 and all of those things coupled with the fact that 0:44:12.836 --> 0:44:16.716 radio actually had formats that would play me. That is 0:44:16.756 --> 0:44:19.996 a huge change from the middle of the eighties and before. 0:44:21.036 --> 0:44:23.636 There's no way that Tracy Chapman would have won Album 0:44:23.716 --> 0:44:27.516 the Year in nineteen eighty one, or eating Eatie Brickell 0:44:27.636 --> 0:44:30.636 or the Thunderbirds or Robert Cray having big hit records 0:44:30.676 --> 0:44:35.236 like that. So things have changed and the burgeoning American 0:44:35.356 --> 0:44:38.356 I'm seen kind of what was happening right about that time. 0:44:39.156 --> 0:44:41.036 Are there still outlets that are going to play your 0:44:41.116 --> 0:44:43.556 new stuff, that are going to say, here's the new 0:44:43.636 --> 0:44:46.236 bonny rate? Yes, I think so, I mean there's only 0:44:46.316 --> 0:44:48.916 I mean, I don't get mainstream play. I don't think 0:44:48.956 --> 0:44:50.596 at all. I've only had a couple of songs that 0:44:50.676 --> 0:44:53.556 crossed over in the in that Nick of Time period 0:44:53.716 --> 0:44:56.356 with I Can't Make You Love Me and have a 0:44:56.396 --> 0:44:59.396 Heart maybe, And I think Thing called Love was a 0:44:59.516 --> 0:45:03.956 radio hit, but only on the adult album are adult 0:45:04.236 --> 0:45:09.036 oriented radio whatever, there's AC and AC light, adult content, 0:45:09.516 --> 0:45:12.916 adult contemporary light. Those stations that would play Nick of 0:45:12.956 --> 0:45:15.236 Time wouldn't play Thing called Love and vice versa. And 0:45:15.276 --> 0:45:20.116 I think nowadays there's tremendous competition, not just for styles 0:45:20.116 --> 0:45:24.396 of music, but four generations of music. I mean, every 0:45:24.396 --> 0:45:28.236 four years is another thirty artists that are vying for 0:45:28.316 --> 0:45:31.916 the same radio time. So I'm thank god I got 0:45:31.956 --> 0:45:34.676 my foot in the door in the nineties because I'm 0:45:34.716 --> 0:45:38.476 still played as a legacy artist on You know, I 0:45:38.516 --> 0:45:41.916 don't really study the formats of the stations that play me, 0:45:41.996 --> 0:45:44.276 but I just know that there's independent what we call 0:45:44.436 --> 0:45:47.836 FM stations that have been incredibly loyal to me and 0:45:48.556 --> 0:45:51.236 probably get a little play on college stations and maybe 0:45:51.316 --> 0:45:54.156 even country stations. I don't know, but there's a circuit 0:45:54.196 --> 0:45:57.316 that plays me just like they played John Hyatt, John Prine, 0:45:57.676 --> 0:46:02.316 Jackson Brown. Thank God. It's a little bit wildering to 0:46:02.396 --> 0:46:05.836 me that I mentioned the song off your last album 0:46:05.916 --> 0:46:08.836 with the ones we Couldn't Be, which, you know, to me, 0:46:08.996 --> 0:46:11.436 I don't see any reason why that's not as big 0:46:11.476 --> 0:46:15.396 a hit as I Can't Make You Love Me. Oh 0:46:15.436 --> 0:46:18.556 my gosh. You know, no one's ever mentioned that song really, 0:46:18.716 --> 0:46:21.636 really no. I mean, I'm very proud of it, but 0:46:21.676 --> 0:46:23.756 it's I just figured it's too personally, you know. I 0:46:23.796 --> 0:46:26.116 have a three or four songs like that that are 0:46:26.156 --> 0:46:30.196 on the keyboard and kind of contemplative, you know, not 0:46:30.396 --> 0:46:34.716 universal themes, but very personal, and they probably don't have 0:46:34.756 --> 0:46:37.076 the production or the musical style to cross over and 0:46:37.156 --> 0:46:39.836 be a single like that. I mean, there's a beautiful 0:46:39.836 --> 0:46:42.756 song called Wounded Hard. A couple of albums before that 0:46:42.876 --> 0:46:47.836 I thought was just a massive deepening for everybody to 0:46:47.876 --> 0:46:50.596 listen to. It's by Jude Johnston. But thank you for 0:46:50.636 --> 0:46:53.396 appreciating that. I just I wish in a perfect world 0:46:53.396 --> 0:46:56.796 that those every ballad could have a lot of showcase. 0:46:57.596 --> 0:47:01.396 So you've continued to put out albums great album since, 0:47:01.436 --> 0:47:04.836 like Fundamental and slip Stream, which I think did very 0:47:04.956 --> 0:47:08.156 very well for you. How was this new album different 0:47:08.156 --> 0:47:12.196 for you? Obviously the world was different. Yes, with COVID, 0:47:12.796 --> 0:47:15.476 was there a different thought going into this record? It's 0:47:15.476 --> 0:47:17.756 always the same for me. I find a ten or 0:47:17.796 --> 0:47:20.996 twelve best songs I can find and write some that 0:47:21.796 --> 0:47:24.356 say things that I can't find from other people. And 0:47:25.476 --> 0:47:29.516 I've got the same focus of looking for new things 0:47:29.516 --> 0:47:32.596 to say and new ways to say it and stretch 0:47:32.636 --> 0:47:36.156 if I can, and have a couple of surprises for people. 0:47:37.076 --> 0:47:39.196 So it wasn't really different. It's just we just had 0:47:39.236 --> 0:47:40.836 to wait a long time before I could get in 0:47:40.876 --> 0:47:44.316 the studio, and you know, there was no assurance that 0:47:45.036 --> 0:47:47.236 this year was going to actually the tour that we 0:47:47.316 --> 0:47:49.796 booked a year ago for this year. We didn't have 0:47:49.836 --> 0:47:51.956 any idea, and I guess we still don't know if 0:47:51.996 --> 0:47:54.836 it's going to one hundred percent happened, but it looks 0:47:54.836 --> 0:47:57.636 pretty good. So I called up May the Staples, and 0:47:57.636 --> 0:48:00.276 I called up Lucinda Williams, and I said, would you 0:48:00.396 --> 0:48:03.156 be my special guests? So the tour is kind of 0:48:03.156 --> 0:48:06.316 split with them, each one of them doing a different part, 0:48:06.476 --> 0:48:10.076 and the sales have been great so far. So going 0:48:10.116 --> 0:48:12.436 into this record, I just knew that I wanted to 0:48:12.436 --> 0:48:14.676 stretch a little bit and do those acoustic songs that 0:48:14.756 --> 0:48:17.756 are not about my personal life. And I also wanted 0:48:17.756 --> 0:48:22.276 to write a song about recovery, and just not just recovery, 0:48:22.316 --> 0:48:24.876 but the way the devil is on your shoulder trying 0:48:24.916 --> 0:48:26.636 to urge you to do the things that you know 0:48:26.676 --> 0:48:29.756 you shouldn't do, and what a slippery slope that is 0:48:30.276 --> 0:48:33.596 and musically waiting for you to blow, which is the 0:48:33.716 --> 0:48:36.596 music to that idea. That has some of the more 0:48:36.676 --> 0:48:39.596 adventurous musical arranging that I've ever come up with, So 0:48:39.996 --> 0:48:42.156 I'm proud of I'm especially proud of that one. And 0:48:42.196 --> 0:48:44.836 then Living for the Ones is the song I wanted 0:48:44.876 --> 0:48:47.236 to write about what we just went through in the 0:48:47.276 --> 0:48:49.836 last couple of years and all the people that we've lost. 0:48:49.956 --> 0:48:52.636 So I got a little bit of everything that I 0:48:52.676 --> 0:48:56.076 needed to say in there. Okay, we are anticipating all 0:48:56.076 --> 0:49:01.116 my questions, which is good. No, No, that's absolutely fine. 0:49:01.476 --> 0:49:04.756 But I do want to ask you about the other 0:49:04.796 --> 0:49:08.796 slower song, the story song on this which was down 0:49:08.796 --> 0:49:11.156 the hall. Tell me a bit about that. Well, that 0:49:11.196 --> 0:49:14.476 one was great journalism by the New York Times. Again, 0:49:14.556 --> 0:49:18.676 the Sunday magazine has some of the most incisive, unexpected stories, 0:49:18.676 --> 0:49:21.876 and I make room in my life to read cover 0:49:21.956 --> 0:49:25.436 to cover unless I'm too blown out by reading about 0:49:25.476 --> 0:49:29.396 war and poverty and starvation on a Sunday morning. So 0:49:29.516 --> 0:49:35.476 I saw this photo essay and a beautiful article in 0:49:35.516 --> 0:49:39.316 the New York Times magazine Sunday paper in May of 0:49:39.676 --> 0:49:45.476 twenty eighteen, and I just was devastated. When I finished, 0:49:45.556 --> 0:49:49.596 I just wept. I put it down and I just wept. 0:49:49.636 --> 0:49:51.476 And I don't even know if I went outside again 0:49:51.556 --> 0:49:54.276 that day. And it continued to stay with me and 0:49:54.356 --> 0:49:57.516 moved me so deeply, and I knew that it was 0:49:57.556 --> 0:50:00.196 going to be what I wanted to write a song about. 0:50:00.756 --> 0:50:03.716 And it had to do with a prison hospice program 0:50:03.716 --> 0:50:08.316 where in Vacaville, California. They have a program where volunt 0:50:09.356 --> 0:50:12.436 prisoners can volunteer to be of service on the hospice board. 0:50:12.716 --> 0:50:16.236 And the photos that accompanied the interviews and the writing 0:50:16.236 --> 0:50:20.036 of Seleca's incredible writing for the piece, which was one 0:50:20.076 --> 0:50:23.556 of the most beautiful marriages of journalism and heart and 0:50:23.956 --> 0:50:27.316 human interest and redemption and grace, and those are the 0:50:27.356 --> 0:50:29.876 things that in the last couple of years, with the 0:50:29.996 --> 0:50:35.636 wrenching polarity and vitriol and climate nightmare and suffering and 0:50:35.756 --> 0:50:39.436 migration and black lives matter, it's unprecedented and I don't 0:50:39.436 --> 0:50:44.036 know how to handle it. So I was really moved 0:50:44.036 --> 0:50:47.556 by the impact of this story, and I knew I 0:50:47.556 --> 0:50:49.356 wanted to write a song from the point of view 0:50:49.356 --> 0:50:52.316 of someone I would make that decision that, you know, 0:50:52.516 --> 0:50:55.436 for no gain, no shortening of his sentence, no money. 0:50:56.156 --> 0:50:59.396 Just saw a guy being wheeled into the hospice ward 0:50:59.396 --> 0:51:02.436 and asked the nurse if his family he comes in 0:51:02.516 --> 0:51:04.516 at the end, and she said most of them don't 0:51:04.516 --> 0:51:07.116 have anybody, and he just, you know, what else has 0:51:07.116 --> 0:51:09.236 he got to do? He didn't have to volunteer it. 0:51:09.916 --> 0:51:12.596 I just put myself in his place and what it 0:51:12.636 --> 0:51:15.996 would be like for him to get over the tribal 0:51:16.796 --> 0:51:20.516 segregation and animosity of one population in the prison community 0:51:21.236 --> 0:51:23.516 has for the other, and they in the hospital. Word, 0:51:23.596 --> 0:51:27.996 everybody's the same. We all need human contact and love 0:51:28.036 --> 0:51:30.716 and care and someone to be with us at the end. 0:51:30.756 --> 0:51:33.636 And I just wanted to be able to write songs, 0:51:33.676 --> 0:51:38.396 these two songs about redemption and grace and forgiveness, and 0:51:39.236 --> 0:51:42.436 I think it's medicine for these difficult times and they're 0:51:42.436 --> 0:51:45.796 beautiful songs. Thank you so much for talking. Thank you, 0:51:46.036 --> 0:51:48.796 Thank you for appreciating what I do and making these 0:51:48.836 --> 0:51:55.116 great suggestions as well. Thanks the Bonny Rate for talking 0:51:55.116 --> 0:51:58.236 about the inspiration behind her new album Just like that. 0:51:59.036 --> 0:52:00.636 You can hear a new album and all of our 0:52:00.676 --> 0:52:03.596 favorite Bonnie Rate songs on my playlist at broken record 0:52:03.636 --> 0:52:07.076 podcast dot com. Be sure to subscribe to our YouTube 0:52:07.156 --> 0:52:10.636 channel YouTube dot com slash broken record Podcast, where you 0:52:10.676 --> 0:52:13.836 can find all of our new episodes. You can follow 0:52:13.916 --> 0:52:16.916 us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record is produced 0:52:16.916 --> 0:52:20.716 with help from Lea Rose, Jason Gambrel, Bent, Holiday, Eric Sandler, 0:52:20.796 --> 0:52:24.476 and Jennifer Sanchez, with engineering help from Nick Chafee. Our 0:52:24.516 --> 0:52:28.676 executive producer is Mia Lobell. Broken Record is a production 0:52:28.676 --> 0:52:31.436 of Pushkin Industries. If you like this show and others 0:52:31.436 --> 0:52:35.436 from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is 0:52:35.476 --> 0:52:39.316 a podcast subscription that offers bonus content an uninterrupted ad 0:52:39.316 --> 0:52:42.396 free listening for four ninety nine a month. Look for 0:52:42.436 --> 0:52:46.036 Pushkin Plus on Apple Podcasts subscriptions, and if you like 0:52:46.076 --> 0:52:48.636 the show, please remember to share, rate, and review us 0:52:48.676 --> 0:52:51.436 on your podcast app Our theme musics by Kenny Beats. 0:52:51.716 --> 0:52:52.756 I'm justin Richmond.