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Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey, y'all's justin Richmond. Today we have on the

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Speaker 1: show Rock and Roll Hall of Famer the person who

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Speaker 1: has one of my all time favorite singer songwriter albums,

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Speaker 1: Bonnie Rate. She's a ridiculous guitarist, gorgeous singer, wonderful interpreter

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Speaker 1: song and maybe even underrated as a songwriter herself. Bonnie

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Speaker 1: was offered her first record deal as a college student

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Speaker 1: in seventy one after a newsweek reporter saw her playing

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Speaker 1: an early gig in Greenwich Village, but it took almost

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Speaker 1: two decades before she peaked commercially. In eighty nine, her

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Speaker 1: tenth album, Nick of Time, debuted at number one and

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Speaker 1: earned three Grammys, including Album of the Year. She built

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Speaker 1: on that success over the next five years with two

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Speaker 1: more hit albums and even more top ten singles. In

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Speaker 1: addition to her commercial success, Bonnie has been a devout

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Speaker 1: advocate for preserving American blues music, bringing songs of the

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Speaker 1: masses from little known but classic songwriters. On today's episode,

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Speaker 1: Bruce Headlam talks to Bonnie Rate about her meticulous song

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Speaker 1: selection process in the inspiration behind the tunes she wrote

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Speaker 1: for her new album Just Like That. Bonnie also talks

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Speaker 1: about a somewhat awkward dinner she had with Prince and

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Speaker 1: how her slide guitar technique will forever be tied to

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Speaker 1: giving her brother the finger. This is broken record liner

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Speaker 1: notes for the digital age. I'm justin Richmond. Here's Bruce

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Speaker 1: Headlam and Bonnie Ray. Now, my wife is a huge

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Speaker 1: she loves Broadway and she grew up with your father's

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Speaker 1: recording of I think Carousel, the original cast recording. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: so I admit I was just watching some clips of

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Speaker 1: him on YouTube. First of all, you look a lot

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Speaker 1: like him, my goodness, thank you. But he ever says

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Speaker 1: that I have the same bump in my nose and

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Speaker 1: we have a broad Scottish face. So he's extremely handsome.

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Speaker 1: I didn't quite get that. But he's any any resemblance

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Speaker 1: I'm really proud of. Well. Also, he had a good

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Speaker 1: looking head of hair, as of course to you, thank

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Speaker 1: you very much. Yeah, he all the way un till

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Speaker 1: he was passed away. He had a lion's mane. Now

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Speaker 1: my wife described him as he was Hugh Jackman, big

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Speaker 1: strapping guy. Yep. Thank you for opening this interview paying

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Speaker 1: tribute to him, because I'm such a I'm so grateful

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Speaker 1: that I get to be his daughter, and my mom's too,

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Speaker 1: who is his music director, but they he was nobody

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Speaker 1: better as a leading man. We'll talk about you and

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Speaker 1: then we'll come back to him. It's been six years

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Speaker 1: since your last album. Yeah, what has that six years

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Speaker 1: been like for you? Well? Working backwards, we had the

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Speaker 1: little thing called a shutdown, so we couldn't get my

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Speaker 1: band together, we couldn't tour. We had to cancel altogether

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Speaker 1: four tours of my own and three with James Taylor

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Speaker 1: in Canada. We kept postponing them and that was frustrating

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Speaker 1: for somebody that's been on the road since I was twenty.

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Speaker 1: And then I finally had a window when everybody was

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Speaker 1: vaccinated and before the omicron surge in June and we

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Speaker 1: flew out and it had been over two years since

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Speaker 1: we played live, so I was really thrilled. So that

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Speaker 1: took care of last year and the year before was

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Speaker 1: just doing recordings from my house for various Democratic candidates

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Speaker 1: and farm aide and gun control benefits and lots of

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Speaker 1: musicians relief efforts, and you know, there was climate disasters

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Speaker 1: that needed fundraising force. So I was able to be

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Speaker 1: very busy but I missed cranking up my guitar and

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Speaker 1: planted drums. And then before that we did a couple

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Speaker 1: We did a year and a half with James opening

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Speaker 1: for him and Arenas we double build. You know, sang

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Speaker 1: a little bit on his set, he sang on mine.

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Speaker 1: And before that I did my usual two year album

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Speaker 1: tour with Digging Deep came out in twenty sixteen. It

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Speaker 1: was a two year extension because of the COVID and

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Speaker 1: I'm probably a two year extension to work with James.

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Speaker 1: So is it Touring does not get tiring for you.

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Speaker 1: You've done it so long, you do it so ferociously,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't get old. Well, if I was keeping the

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Speaker 1: same lifestyle I was the first seventeen years, I probably

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Speaker 1: would have been flat on my back and not able

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Speaker 1: to carry on the pace that I do. But as

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Speaker 1: accommodation to being older, we do it. We do two

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Speaker 1: shows in a row instead of three. Used to do

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Speaker 1: three and then one off and two and then one off.

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Speaker 1: So we do two on one off to rest my voice,

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Speaker 1: texting an email has made it really better for saving

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Speaker 1: my voice. I actually played a little bit longer show

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Speaker 1: because I used to do a lot of fundraising receptions

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Speaker 1: after the show too, which also wears out your voice.

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Speaker 1: So I would say the touring part is fun to

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Speaker 1: wake up in five cities a week, fun to have

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Speaker 1: an opening night every night, to prove to the crowd

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Speaker 1: that you're just as if not better than you were

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Speaker 1: a last time, at least as good. And you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm not gonna lie and say that it was. It's

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Speaker 1: as fun as it was the first few decades when

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Speaker 1: we could stay up and party and go to clubs

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Speaker 1: and sit in with bands and act like fools. But

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Speaker 1: it's really satisfying to play the shows. So the extra,

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Speaker 1: the twenty two hours in between the shows is the challenge.

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Speaker 1: But I've made it work for me as I you know,

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Speaker 1: I do yoga, I talk to my friends. I'm not

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Speaker 1: going to see as many of them on this tour,

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Speaker 1: but you know, FaceTime and texting and all that has

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Speaker 1: made it a lot more easy to be in touch

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Speaker 1: with your loved ones. So it's not draining if you

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Speaker 1: take care of yourself, and the bliss and the exaltation

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Speaker 1: and the blast of energy and tribal connection and joy

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Speaker 1: comes from the stage shows. So that I'd have to

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Speaker 1: say that as the driving force and also making a

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Speaker 1: living for twenty five people that would like to continue

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Speaker 1: to pay their heating bill. To get together with your

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Speaker 1: band and to get it to do this album? Is

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Speaker 1: it a matter of gathering all the songs together first?

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Speaker 1: What part of the process is that? Yeah, I mean

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Speaker 1: I start calling songs down from ideas that I've saved

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Speaker 1: over the years. There's certain songs on this record that

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Speaker 1: have been resting and waiting. Do they have their day

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Speaker 1: in court? And I look in earnest all the time.

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Speaker 1: I'm always listening to maybe twenty or thirty songwriters that

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Speaker 1: I really love the work of, some of whom are

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Speaker 1: well known and others are more obscure. And I love

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Speaker 1: the challenge of unearthing some unbelievably obscure jewel off of

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Speaker 1: somebody's early records. So it's a song hunt that unearthed

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Speaker 1: R and B chestnuts, current singer songwriters, old catalog from

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Speaker 1: other artists, lots of publishing submissions, and some of my own.

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Speaker 1: So you know, the process starts a couple of years

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Speaker 1: before we actually get in the studio, and then, like

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Speaker 1: the person that works on the term paper right before

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Speaker 1: it's due, that's when I write my songs is right.

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Speaker 1: When we go ready to go on the studio, I go, oh,

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Speaker 1: I better finish this because I have really high standards

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Speaker 1: and I don't make the cut off. And what do

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Speaker 1: you look for in a song? Has it changed over

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Speaker 1: the years. I'd like to say that it has changed,

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Speaker 1: but not really. The main thing that is on my

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Speaker 1: mind is not repeating myself. So finding something new to

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Speaker 1: say at twenty one albums is musically and lyrically very challenging.

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Speaker 1: So I've covered every aspect of broken love, longing for love,

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Speaker 1: I'm excited to be in love, you know, all of

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Speaker 1: that issue. And then there's some societal kind of songs,

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Speaker 1: and there's just chestnuts from the blues and reggae and

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Speaker 1: world music pantheon of our great artist that I love.

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Speaker 1: So I just kind of want to make it fresh

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Speaker 1: for myself and for my fans, and stretch a little

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Speaker 1: bit and do some feels on the record that are

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Speaker 1: going to add to my show when I go out

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Speaker 1: on the road. I write my own songs kind of

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Speaker 1: on assignment for what groove I'm missing and what topic

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Speaker 1: I'm not covering yet. So I want to be I

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Speaker 1: want to be new and interesting to myself, and I

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Speaker 1: think that pays off for the fans too. I found

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Speaker 1: your own songs on this record to be very different. Now,

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Speaker 1: your last album had one of your favorite songs of mine,

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Speaker 1: which is the Ones We Couldn't Be, which I think

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Speaker 1: is just should be way way up there for you

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Speaker 1: because it's a fantastic song, Thank You, Thank You. This

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Speaker 1: is at least two of the songs are very very

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Speaker 1: different though their narrative songs, and I can't remember you

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Speaker 1: ever writing that kind of song before their storytellers songs. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I was just going to ask you first about the

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Speaker 1: title track, which is just like that. Yeah. I deliberately

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Speaker 1: wanted to do something different, like a story song. I

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Speaker 1: mean quite quite a bit, inspired by my friend John Prine,

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Speaker 1: and even before he passed away, I had come up

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Speaker 1: with the ideas to do these two songs that are

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Speaker 1: kind of acoustic and story songs. I remember being very

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Speaker 1: moved by the gift of the Magi by O Henry

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Speaker 1: when I was a kid, and I love telling stories

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Speaker 1: that you have a twist a little bit in the ending,

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Speaker 1: and I love reading those. I'm a big short story reader.

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Speaker 1: But I found two incidents out in the world that

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Speaker 1: really inspired these songs. And back in twenty eighteen, I

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Speaker 1: saw a news program, evening News, that finished with a

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Speaker 1: human interest segment, as they often do to balance the

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Speaker 1: bad news with something hopeful, and that crew followed a

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Speaker 1: woman knocking on the door of the gentleman that had

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Speaker 1: received her son's heart as an organ donation, and they

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Speaker 1: were capturing that on camera, and that was emotional enough,

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Speaker 1: but he said, would you like to put your head

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Speaker 1: on my chest and listen to your son's heart? And

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Speaker 1: I lost it. I'm losing it now because it was

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Speaker 1: so moving to me what that must have been like

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Speaker 1: for both of those people. So I knew right then

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Speaker 1: I was going to write a song about it. And

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Speaker 1: I created a character that probably didn't even have any

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Speaker 1: idea that her son organ was going to be donated.

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Speaker 1: Normally have to get permission, but she was responsible for

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Speaker 1: the death of her child and was so mortified when

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Speaker 1: she came out of her whatever coomar or healing, she

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Speaker 1: just left town and disappeared. And the song is about

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Speaker 1: the recipient of her son's heart as a child spending

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Speaker 1: twenty years trying to find her so he could share

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Speaker 1: that with her that she gave him life, and she

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Speaker 1: gave life to them both. It's interesting that you flipped

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Speaker 1: it from the original story. You made the woman the

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Speaker 1: person in the house who didn't know this was happening. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of YouTube videos it turns out, of

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Speaker 1: families meeting each other for the first time that received Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I didn't know about it. You know, when something moves

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Speaker 1: me that much. Was These are the first two songs

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Speaker 1: I had to write for the record. And I knew

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Speaker 1: that I had some other songs saved up that are

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Speaker 1: we going to put in this time, But that song

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Speaker 1: was just very powerful for me to write, and the

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Speaker 1: idea of redemption and being able to finally have some

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Speaker 1: grace and forgive yourself that you don't have to be

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Speaker 1: going through having killed somebody accidentally in a car to

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Speaker 1: feel that way. And it's all the ways that our

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Speaker 1: lives are turned around by an act of grace and

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Speaker 1: love from someone else. And I learned about it from Angel,

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Speaker 1: from Montgomery and from Donald and Lydia, and you know,

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Speaker 1: all the great story songs of Dylan's early records and

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Speaker 1: Jackson Brown and so many others in the folk tradition.

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Speaker 1: I'm really hoping that it resonates with people because it's

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Speaker 1: it sure did with me. How is it different writing

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Speaker 1: this kind of story song. First of all, you're doing

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Speaker 1: some fingerpicking, which we don't often hear, which is lovely

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Speaker 1: to hear. Did it start on the guitar? Did it

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Speaker 1: start with the lyrics? How did you approach this song?

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Speaker 1: Was it different? I wrote the lyrics when I came

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Speaker 1: off the road and I had a break back in

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Speaker 1: twenty nineteen in the winter, and I wrote both of

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Speaker 1: this acoustic songs, and I knew that I was going

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Speaker 1: to be on the guitar because I normally write the

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Speaker 1: songs like the ones we Couldn't Be or All at Once,

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Speaker 1: which is another story song that I wrote years ago.

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Speaker 1: I think it's on luck of the draw. But I

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Speaker 1: wrote the lyrics they were like they like people say.

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Speaker 1: It's a bit of a cliche to say they kind

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Speaker 1: of channeled through me, but that was I had a

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Speaker 1: very kind of sacred intention with wanting to make this

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Speaker 1: story real and I knew. I knew before I set

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Speaker 1: the words down that it was going to end with

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Speaker 1: this woman's life being changed. And it was fun painting

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Speaker 1: in the details, you know, and just making it just right.

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Speaker 1: Because I don't write that often, so it was very satisfying.

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Speaker 1: At no time was I under pressure. I waited to

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Speaker 1: put the music until right before the album, and that

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Speaker 1: is when playing the fingerpicking style, which I knew I

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Speaker 1: was going to do this song. And because I love

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Speaker 1: Jackson's records and John Prine's first album like his others,

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Speaker 1: but his first album is an absolute masterpiece. And it

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Speaker 1: just shows the power of hearing Bob Dylan and Joan

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Speaker 1: Baez when I was a kid and picked up the guitar,

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Speaker 1: and just the power of a voice in one guitar,

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Speaker 1: and I played that music and John Prine was in

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Speaker 1: my heart when I was writing that song. We should

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Speaker 1: talk a bit about your musical background. If you came

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Speaker 1: from a musical family, your mother pianist, your father this

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Speaker 1: Broadway star. What did you get from each of them

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Speaker 1: in terms of music? I would say that because they

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Speaker 1: were a partnership. She helped select his material for his concerts,

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Speaker 1: She helped get his clothes together, he had, you know,

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Speaker 1: they were golfing partners. He was his rehearsal pianist, his

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Speaker 1: music director, and directed the orchestra with her head playing

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Speaker 1: the piano at his concerts, so I hear them together,

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Speaker 1: giving me the joy of music. Both my brothers and

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Speaker 1: I sitting there just in the other rooms of the

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Speaker 1: house listening to my dad warm up and then practice

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Speaker 1: songs for different functions that he was going to be doing,

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Speaker 1: either light opera or the Broadway shows he was about

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Speaker 1: to do, to practice to get used to those or

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Speaker 1: his concerts. So we got a wide range of everything

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Speaker 1: from Frank Sinatra to Nat King Cole and Tony Bennett

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Speaker 1: to Ella Fitzgerald to Mahela Jackson to classical music. So

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Speaker 1: I got the love of a wide range of music

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Speaker 1: from both my folks exposing us to it at a

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Speaker 1: very young age. So my mom was also a really

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Speaker 1: good singer, and I wanted to play piano like she did,

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Speaker 1: and took lessons for five years, and I just gave

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Speaker 1: up because my teacher wouldn't let me play pop songs

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Speaker 1: and I really wanted to play Motown and Beatles songs,

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Speaker 1: and so I would do that at home and then

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Speaker 1: lag behind when I was supposed to play my classical

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Speaker 1: piece for him. So I jettisoned the piano and picked

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Speaker 1: up the guitar, which I had started to learn when

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Speaker 1: I was about nine years old because I emulated my

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Speaker 1: camp counselors. Every summer Moll my dad was in summer Stock,

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Speaker 1: we would go to this camp in the Adirondacks the

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Speaker 1: way from La to Adderdics and the counselors were caught

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Speaker 1: up in the folk revival of the sixties, so Joan Bayez,

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Speaker 1: Pete Seeger, Peter Paul, and Mary King Centrio Odetta. Those

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Speaker 1: were heroes to me, and I taught myself to play

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Speaker 1: off those records, which I begged for it Christmas, along

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Speaker 1: with my guitar. So I was a little folky and

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Speaker 1: ended up getting more interested in the guitar after I

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Speaker 1: didn't take guitar lessons with By then, I had sort

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Speaker 1: of enjoyed picking things out by ear, and so I

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Speaker 1: got my love of the instrument from my mom and

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Speaker 1: my love of singing probably from my dad. It's interesting

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Speaker 1: you sort of combine them because you're a performer like

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Speaker 1: your dad, but like your mother, you're constantly on the

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Speaker 1: lookout for the right song. You're the manager at the

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Speaker 1: same time. Yeah, and you've helped a lot of songwriters

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Speaker 1: careers by looking for these things. That's a treasure for

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Speaker 1: me because I happened to love the songwriter's original demos

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Speaker 1: of the songs they give me, I have a whole

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Speaker 1: collection of them, but some of them wouldn't have the

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Speaker 1: kind of a voice that would get a record deal.

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Speaker 1: So I feel like I have an obligation to be

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Speaker 1: able to make these beautiful pieces of music sing and

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Speaker 1: exposed to a broader audience. I mean not only opening

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Speaker 1: doors for them as a in their career, but I

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Speaker 1: mean I can't imagine being such a talented songwriter and

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Speaker 1: have nobody hear your tune. So you know, I come

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Speaker 1: from the Judy Collins, Ella Fitzgerald, Frank Sinatra's school of

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Speaker 1: interpreting other people's material and making it my own. But

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Speaker 1: you're also write, Yeah, you're reminding me because I grew

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Speaker 1: up in southern Ontario and Shirley Ikart used to I

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Speaker 1: was too young, but my sister used to go see her.

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Speaker 1: So she was an example of someone whose career you

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Speaker 1: really made. Yeah, and she had a pretty good I

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Speaker 1: think she had a pretty good following in Canada and

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Speaker 1: she's still making it. She was still making wonderful records.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, that song that she wrote kind of changed

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Speaker 1: my life. But you don't sing it correctly because it's

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Speaker 1: it's really something to talk about. Oh, oh, there you go.

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Speaker 1: Canadians don't understand your version at all. And she didn't

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Speaker 1: sing like that on the demo either, so there you go. No,

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Speaker 1: that would be a very limited audience if she sang

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Speaker 1: like that. Yeah, just Canadians, and there's not that many

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Speaker 1: of us. I have a Canadian in my band now.

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Speaker 1: He's from Winnipeg originally, but he lives in Nova, Scotia,

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Speaker 1: Glenn Patcha, and he is a secret weapon of this

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Speaker 1: new album. He's just an incredibly soulful keyboard player but

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Speaker 1: a great singer as well. So I'm a big, big

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Speaker 1: fan of Canadian musicians and comedians. We'll be right back

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Speaker 1: with more from Bonnie Rate than Bruce Head Them. After

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Speaker 1: a break, we're back with more from Bonnie Rate and

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Speaker 1: Bruce Headlam. So was there one particular song that you

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Speaker 1: listen to or you played in the guitar that sort

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Speaker 1: of said to you, I want this to be my life?

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Speaker 1: You know, I was plaintively playing all those joan by

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Speaker 1: his songs, all my trials, everything on her first couple

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Speaker 1: of albums Odetta's songs, and then I just felt hard

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Speaker 1: for Bob Dylan. Taught myself to play all of those

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Speaker 1: in my room and sang so earnestly, with absolutely no

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Speaker 1: desire or need to play for other people. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I led the songs are on the campfire at camp

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Speaker 1: As an assistant counselor, I'd help put on the talent

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Speaker 1: shows on Saturday nights with kids doing musicals. But playing

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Speaker 1: music for me was just a solitary, wonderful emotional outlet.

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Speaker 1: And I just loved the sound that the guitar makes

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Speaker 1: when it's in your lap and through the sound hole

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Speaker 1: and singing and playing it's just so such a release

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Speaker 1: and you go so deep. So I can't really say

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Speaker 1: there was one tune that made me want to go

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Speaker 1: do it for a living. But one of the best

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Speaker 1: inspirations was I took a semester off from college, and

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Speaker 1: my folks said, Okay, you're on your own or not

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Speaker 1: supporting you if you take a semester off. So I

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Speaker 1: got to get a job, and I worked for the

347
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Speaker 1: American Friend Service Committee as a transcriptionist in Philadelphia. And

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Speaker 1: I went to a club and I saw some young

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Speaker 1: folk singer, a woman opening for the main act at

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Speaker 1: a little tiny club called a second front, and I said,

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Speaker 1: you know what, I could be doing this instead of typing.

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Speaker 1: You know, I like the AFSC, but come on, how

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Speaker 1: much is she getting paid? So I found out I

354
00:19:26,556 --> 00:19:30,236
Speaker 1: could just make pin money and support myself, and that's

355
00:19:30,236 --> 00:19:32,876
Speaker 1: how my career took off. It wasn't really a desire

356
00:19:32,916 --> 00:19:37,276
Speaker 1: to become a musical powerhouse or have a career in music.

357
00:19:37,316 --> 00:19:39,436
Speaker 1: I was always going to be a social activist and

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Speaker 1: it kind of fell into my lap just because I

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Speaker 1: happen to have the inspiration of seeing this girl that's

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Speaker 1: I said. But if she can do that, I can

361
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Speaker 1: do I'm at least that good, you know. And did

362
00:19:49,596 --> 00:19:51,396
Speaker 1: you make as much money as you would have as

363
00:19:51,436 --> 00:19:54,076
Speaker 1: a translator? Oh, I think I've done a little bit

364
00:19:54,076 --> 00:19:56,556
Speaker 1: better than I've been a better social activist as well,

365
00:19:56,596 --> 00:19:59,876
Speaker 1: I had more reach. But yeah, I mean right off

366
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Speaker 1: the bat, I was very lucky to be dating somebody

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Speaker 1: that was also a manager of some great blues artists

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Speaker 1: that it's the Great Sunhouse, Mississippi jo Unhurt and then

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Speaker 1: Mississippi Fred McDowell, who I got to meet and hang

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Speaker 1: out with all these legendary blues guys, which is why

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Speaker 1: I took a semester off because a lot of them

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Speaker 1: were elderly, and I knew they weren't going to live

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Speaker 1: forever and I could always go back to college. So

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Speaker 1: I had a kind of an opening slot with a

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Speaker 1: lot of these little gigs. And you know the gas

376
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Speaker 1: lad I opened for Fred mcdowellan and my hero John Hammond,

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Speaker 1: and I had no expectation to have the guy from

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Speaker 1: Newsweek come down and give me a review. And next

379
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Speaker 1: thing I know, I was getting record deal offers. Wow.

380
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Speaker 1: So nobody more surprised than my folks and me. Was

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Speaker 1: that your first exposure to blues music? No. I became

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Speaker 1: a complete blues fan at fourteen when I Joan by

383
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Speaker 1: his Vanguard Records was like mecca for me. You know,

384
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Speaker 1: So anything on Vanguard I wanted to listen to. And

385
00:21:01,236 --> 00:21:05,876
Speaker 1: the Blues at Newport sixty four had Reverend Gary Davis,

386
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Speaker 1: John Lee Hooker, John Hammond, Dave Van Ronk, n McGee,

387
00:21:09,676 --> 00:21:14,956
Speaker 1: Sonny Terry, the Great Mississippi, John Hurt, and Reverend Gary Davis.

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Speaker 1: It was a great record, and I taught myself to play.

389
00:21:17,556 --> 00:21:20,476
Speaker 1: I'd never heard anything like John Hurt. I didn't know

390
00:21:20,556 --> 00:21:22,556
Speaker 1: white guys could sing the blues. And I was a

391
00:21:22,636 --> 00:21:26,316
Speaker 1: huge fan of Chuck Barry, Little, Richard Pat's Domino and

392
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Speaker 1: Ray Charles. So I was already in the R and

393
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Speaker 1: B soul music lane like the Beatles were in the

394
00:21:32,836 --> 00:21:36,356
Speaker 1: Rolling Stones. And when the Stones turned, everybody onto Muddy

395
00:21:36,356 --> 00:21:39,596
Speaker 1: Waters and how and Wolf. I signed up really just

396
00:21:39,716 --> 00:21:41,996
Speaker 1: like the rest of us. You know, Now, when did

397
00:21:41,996 --> 00:21:46,036
Speaker 1: the slide guitar start for you? I was about fifteen.

398
00:21:46,316 --> 00:21:49,396
Speaker 1: I had heard about bottle like guitaris to read sing

399
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Speaker 1: Out magazine. I didn't have income to be able to

400
00:21:52,036 --> 00:21:55,236
Speaker 1: go buy records or because I didn't take guitar lessons.

401
00:21:55,316 --> 00:21:57,796
Speaker 1: I did know though, that the that you tuned the

402
00:21:57,796 --> 00:22:00,476
Speaker 1: guitar to an open tuning because my grandpa taught me

403
00:22:00,996 --> 00:22:03,436
Speaker 1: some hymns on a Hawaiian lap steel, and he said,

404
00:22:03,436 --> 00:22:05,836
Speaker 1: all you have to do is move the bar, you know,

405
00:22:05,956 --> 00:22:07,636
Speaker 1: from this position to this and you get the four

406
00:22:07,716 --> 00:22:11,476
Speaker 1: cord in the five corner. It's a cake. So I

407
00:22:11,556 --> 00:22:14,796
Speaker 1: soaked the label off a chorused and cold bottle to

408
00:22:14,836 --> 00:22:16,956
Speaker 1: put on my middle finger, which is not actually very

409
00:22:16,956 --> 00:22:20,836
Speaker 1: practical for slide, and I just tried to imitate what

410
00:22:20,916 --> 00:22:22,956
Speaker 1: I heard on the records. When I was about fourteen

411
00:22:22,996 --> 00:22:25,676
Speaker 1: or fifteen years old, including Little Red Rooster by the

412
00:22:25,756 --> 00:22:28,436
Speaker 1: Rolling Stones. Now we should say bb King said you

413
00:22:28,476 --> 00:22:32,516
Speaker 1: were the best, I think, the best damn slide player around.

414
00:22:32,756 --> 00:22:36,436
Speaker 1: So you've got lots of ploddeds. Yeah, I can. I

415
00:22:36,436 --> 00:22:38,516
Speaker 1: can go to my grave with that one right there.

416
00:22:38,836 --> 00:22:40,956
Speaker 1: I mean, if I never got another review, that was

417
00:22:40,996 --> 00:22:44,796
Speaker 1: the one that I was not expecting any treasure. And

418
00:22:44,876 --> 00:22:47,676
Speaker 1: you mentioned you use the slide of your second finger,

419
00:22:47,876 --> 00:22:52,156
Speaker 1: which is not unheard of, but it's unusual. Yeah, it's

420
00:22:52,156 --> 00:22:55,556
Speaker 1: not optimum because actually it's great to be able to

421
00:22:55,916 --> 00:22:59,996
Speaker 1: finger the other parts of the chords when you're not

422
00:23:00,036 --> 00:23:02,756
Speaker 1: just playing the slide, you know, So it's it's it's

423
00:23:02,796 --> 00:23:05,556
Speaker 1: more limiting. But I had never seen anyone do it

424
00:23:05,596 --> 00:23:07,436
Speaker 1: in La. I grew up in La and we used

425
00:23:07,596 --> 00:23:09,636
Speaker 1: what we call flip the bird all that time when

426
00:23:09,676 --> 00:23:12,036
Speaker 1: I was a tough little tomboy and I had older brother,

427
00:23:12,116 --> 00:23:16,276
Speaker 1: and I would do this this particular position with my hand,

428
00:23:16,996 --> 00:23:20,956
Speaker 1: which isolate your middle finger, and that's the finger that

429
00:23:21,036 --> 00:23:23,876
Speaker 1: seemed really natural to me to put the slide on.

430
00:23:23,956 --> 00:23:26,836
Speaker 1: And in fact you hold I won't make that finger,

431
00:23:26,916 --> 00:23:30,316
Speaker 1: but you hold the bottleneck on in the position that's

432
00:23:30,356 --> 00:23:33,996
Speaker 1: actually the position I'm talking about so well, we've now

433
00:23:34,036 --> 00:23:37,396
Speaker 1: discovered the secret of you or great slide work flipping

434
00:23:37,396 --> 00:23:41,076
Speaker 1: the bird to your brother, which I showcased on the

435
00:23:41,396 --> 00:23:45,236
Speaker 1: David Frost Afternoon Show, my first show ever on TV.

436
00:23:45,436 --> 00:23:48,076
Speaker 1: My bass player of freebo and I like in seventy

437
00:23:48,076 --> 00:23:50,436
Speaker 1: two or something like that, and Robert Klein was the

438
00:23:50,476 --> 00:23:53,196
Speaker 1: guest host, and I had opened for him at a

439
00:23:53,316 --> 00:23:56,356
Speaker 1: university show and he played harmonic as everybody knows. He

440
00:23:56,396 --> 00:23:59,276
Speaker 1: had a great bit about I can't stop my leg

441
00:23:59,356 --> 00:24:02,516
Speaker 1: and a spoof on being a blues guy, and he

442
00:24:02,596 --> 00:24:05,276
Speaker 1: asked me about it, and I remember being smart alecky

443
00:24:05,316 --> 00:24:07,476
Speaker 1: and I was holding my finger like that the whole

444
00:24:07,516 --> 00:24:10,476
Speaker 1: time in this day even Frost show. And then I

445
00:24:10,476 --> 00:24:12,876
Speaker 1: went home and asked my friends if they saw it.

446
00:24:12,916 --> 00:24:14,756
Speaker 1: They went, oh, yeah, I can't believe you did that.

447
00:24:15,476 --> 00:24:19,836
Speaker 1: Ah youth. Yeah, you surprised yourself by getting a record

448
00:24:19,836 --> 00:24:24,396
Speaker 1: deal and then you had these critically lauded albums through

449
00:24:24,436 --> 00:24:27,396
Speaker 1: the seventies. Tell me what was that time like for you.

450
00:24:28,196 --> 00:24:30,756
Speaker 1: I was having a blast. I mean I built my

451
00:24:30,796 --> 00:24:33,796
Speaker 1: following from opening for my heroes and folk clubs to

452
00:24:33,916 --> 00:24:36,836
Speaker 1: being on festivals and being on the one or the

453
00:24:37,036 --> 00:24:40,436
Speaker 1: opening act at three o'clock and next thing, and as back,

454
00:24:41,036 --> 00:24:44,396
Speaker 1: eventually being asked a headline a couple of nights, and

455
00:24:44,436 --> 00:24:47,356
Speaker 1: then I drew poorly, and then I drew better, and

456
00:24:47,396 --> 00:24:50,556
Speaker 1: then I would open for Cat Stevens or James Taylor,

457
00:24:50,596 --> 00:24:54,116
Speaker 1: and you know the benefit of having someone manage and

458
00:24:54,156 --> 00:24:57,476
Speaker 1: booked me that was already had acts that he could

459
00:24:57,476 --> 00:24:59,196
Speaker 1: just call up. And I was cheap, you know. I

460
00:24:59,236 --> 00:25:01,596
Speaker 1: played my own guitar, didn't need a band. I played

461
00:25:01,596 --> 00:25:04,156
Speaker 1: a little blues, I played a little folk music, so

462
00:25:04,236 --> 00:25:07,996
Speaker 1: I was not threatening to the main act. And next thing,

463
00:25:07,996 --> 00:25:10,156
Speaker 1: you know, I was building my own following so slow

464
00:25:10,156 --> 00:25:13,156
Speaker 1: and steady. I got the record deal that came out.

465
00:25:13,436 --> 00:25:15,916
Speaker 1: I couldn't afford a band till after my third album,

466
00:25:16,676 --> 00:25:19,916
Speaker 1: and it was really touring most of the time to

467
00:25:19,916 --> 00:25:23,956
Speaker 1: build up my following, and mostly in colleges. So I'm

468
00:25:24,116 --> 00:25:27,636
Speaker 1: feeling the harvest of that, all that legwork and giving

469
00:25:27,716 --> 00:25:30,876
Speaker 1: up personal life, you know, time at home, because people

470
00:25:30,876 --> 00:25:33,396
Speaker 1: are still coming to see me, you know, five decades later,

471
00:25:33,396 --> 00:25:35,396
Speaker 1: and a lot of them write letters and say I

472
00:25:35,436 --> 00:25:39,236
Speaker 1: saw you at Case Western Reserve in nineteen seventy six

473
00:25:39,316 --> 00:25:41,316
Speaker 1: or I was you know, I was in the audience

474
00:25:41,316 --> 00:25:44,796
Speaker 1: in Schwanksville, Pennsylvania. And you know, all of these people

475
00:25:44,836 --> 00:25:48,356
Speaker 1: that spent their twenties and thirties, they've stayed loyal with me.

476
00:25:48,396 --> 00:25:52,476
Speaker 1: So my recollection of that time is six albums in

477
00:25:52,596 --> 00:25:55,596
Speaker 1: seven years and ten months on the road. Wow, and

478
00:25:55,756 --> 00:25:57,996
Speaker 1: one woman and a bunch of guys. And I was

479
00:25:58,076 --> 00:26:00,676
Speaker 1: like Gidget. You know, they told Gidget she couldn't surf,

480
00:26:00,756 --> 00:26:04,236
Speaker 1: and she was eventually accepted by the guy's community. And

481
00:26:04,316 --> 00:26:06,396
Speaker 1: I felt that way about being a leader of a

482
00:26:06,436 --> 00:26:08,756
Speaker 1: band and playing lead guitar. I don't think of you

483
00:26:08,796 --> 00:26:13,196
Speaker 1: as a Gidget type. Maybe a gidget who's flipping off everybody. Yeah,

484
00:26:13,196 --> 00:26:15,916
Speaker 1: I went from Gidget when I was thirteen, or Soda

485
00:26:16,516 --> 00:26:18,876
Speaker 1: Amanda Blake I thought was really great because she had

486
00:26:18,916 --> 00:26:21,516
Speaker 1: red hair and she didn't have to get married and

487
00:26:21,596 --> 00:26:24,556
Speaker 1: she owned a saloon, so that I was not lost

488
00:26:24,636 --> 00:26:26,996
Speaker 1: on me. I went, you know what, I'm not the

489
00:26:27,036 --> 00:26:30,076
Speaker 1: wife and mother type, but I'm just gonna It was

490
00:26:30,116 --> 00:26:32,356
Speaker 1: a dream come true to be handed a career like that,

491
00:26:32,396 --> 00:26:34,636
Speaker 1: and I've never had a day where I don't know

492
00:26:34,676 --> 00:26:39,996
Speaker 1: how lucky I am. You also showcased some female composers

493
00:26:40,396 --> 00:26:42,916
Speaker 1: earlier in your career. People who don't have a big

494
00:26:42,916 --> 00:26:49,236
Speaker 1: following now like Sippy Wallace and Yvonne Blake and clips Arose.

495
00:26:50,076 --> 00:26:52,276
Speaker 1: Was that delivered on your part? Was this something that

496
00:26:52,356 --> 00:26:55,676
Speaker 1: interested you about blues history? Well? To me as a

497
00:26:55,716 --> 00:26:59,196
Speaker 1: blues fan, the classic blues singers were just all fantastic

498
00:26:59,236 --> 00:27:03,316
Speaker 1: and so different. But I loved that Sippy wrote songs

499
00:27:03,396 --> 00:27:05,636
Speaker 1: from kind of a as a young feminist in my

500
00:27:05,716 --> 00:27:09,916
Speaker 1: early twenties, you know, in that late lateeen to hear

501
00:27:09,996 --> 00:27:11,676
Speaker 1: you can make me do what you want to do.

502
00:27:11,716 --> 00:27:13,796
Speaker 1: But you got to know how, you know, it was

503
00:27:13,836 --> 00:27:17,396
Speaker 1: just so saucy and women be wise, keep your mouth shut,

504
00:27:17,596 --> 00:27:20,636
Speaker 1: don't advertise your man. You know, all the feminists were going.

505
00:27:20,716 --> 00:27:22,756
Speaker 1: You know, how could you say that sisters would never

506
00:27:22,876 --> 00:27:25,356
Speaker 1: steal each other's man? I said, what what world are

507
00:27:25,396 --> 00:27:28,156
Speaker 1: you living in? You know? You know, if you talk

508
00:27:28,196 --> 00:27:30,316
Speaker 1: about your baby, you tell me he's so fine. Don't

509
00:27:30,316 --> 00:27:32,996
Speaker 1: be surprised if I come up check him out sometime.

510
00:27:33,116 --> 00:27:36,436
Speaker 1: You know. So Sippy, I had no idea that she

511
00:27:36,556 --> 00:27:39,276
Speaker 1: was still alive, and so to actually record her songs

512
00:27:39,276 --> 00:27:42,196
Speaker 1: because I loved her music above all the classic blues

513
00:27:42,236 --> 00:27:45,316
Speaker 1: singers and find out that she was alive and become

514
00:27:45,396 --> 00:27:47,596
Speaker 1: friends with her at the ann Arbor Blues and Jazz

515
00:27:47,636 --> 00:27:51,356
Speaker 1: Festival and go on and tour together for fifteen years.

516
00:27:51,676 --> 00:27:54,756
Speaker 1: It was just an incredible gift. So, you know, something

517
00:27:54,796 --> 00:27:58,116
Speaker 1: that I had an intention, it was musically driven, ended

518
00:27:58,196 --> 00:28:01,356
Speaker 1: up being a benefit culturally for me and for her

519
00:28:01,556 --> 00:28:05,796
Speaker 1: just to expose her to a wider, wider audience. And

520
00:28:06,356 --> 00:28:08,316
Speaker 1: that is a great joy for me to take people

521
00:28:08,316 --> 00:28:11,236
Speaker 1: that are under a shaded I mean, Clypso music is

522
00:28:11,436 --> 00:28:14,276
Speaker 1: one of my other favorites and Clipso Rose is a

523
00:28:14,356 --> 00:28:16,996
Speaker 1: huge star in that world. And Van Dyke Parks is

524
00:28:17,036 --> 00:28:19,476
Speaker 1: the one that turned me onto that song. So on

525
00:28:19,476 --> 00:28:21,636
Speaker 1: the record, I was working with him in Little George

526
00:28:21,676 --> 00:28:24,116
Speaker 1: and you know we did that song. What's she going

527
00:28:24,156 --> 00:28:26,396
Speaker 1: to do? If I can't repeat it here? But there's

528
00:28:26,396 --> 00:28:29,196
Speaker 1: a little bit of some double untender lyrics, as it

529
00:28:29,476 --> 00:28:32,636
Speaker 1: often is in the blues and Clypso music. What was

530
00:28:32,676 --> 00:28:34,796
Speaker 1: Sippy Wallace like? What was she like as a person.

531
00:28:35,596 --> 00:28:40,196
Speaker 1: She had an incredibly great laugh which she loved to laugh,

532
00:28:40,356 --> 00:28:44,156
Speaker 1: left a kid around, but she was very religious. And

533
00:28:44,236 --> 00:28:47,556
Speaker 1: you know I was meeting on her sixties or late sixties.

534
00:28:47,556 --> 00:28:50,716
Speaker 1: She had recovered from a stroke and she was you

535
00:28:50,876 --> 00:28:52,636
Speaker 1: had been in a wheelchair for a while, but was

536
00:28:52,676 --> 00:28:56,076
Speaker 1: walking slowly, and she was only going to do gospel

537
00:28:56,156 --> 00:28:59,276
Speaker 1: music after she stopped. You know, the whole blues industry

538
00:28:59,276 --> 00:29:02,556
Speaker 1: went downhill when there was the depression and the Second

539
00:29:02,596 --> 00:29:05,036
Speaker 1: World War. They needed the vinyl for other things, and

540
00:29:05,196 --> 00:29:08,076
Speaker 1: the black music industry was the one that took the hit.

541
00:29:08,676 --> 00:29:11,876
Speaker 1: So she really was settled on this plane. In church,

542
00:29:12,356 --> 00:29:14,516
Speaker 1: she played organ and piano in the church and led

543
00:29:14,556 --> 00:29:18,196
Speaker 1: the choir. And she heard that I had done one

544
00:29:18,196 --> 00:29:20,876
Speaker 1: of her songs, and her manager, who had kind of

545
00:29:20,916 --> 00:29:23,596
Speaker 1: brought her out of retirement and nursed her back to

546
00:29:24,356 --> 00:29:26,596
Speaker 1: you know, the idea of playing in public again after

547
00:29:26,636 --> 00:29:29,396
Speaker 1: her stroke. She was only going to do a gospel

548
00:29:29,436 --> 00:29:31,436
Speaker 1: song at the anne of her Blues and Jazz festival,

549
00:29:31,796 --> 00:29:34,196
Speaker 1: and I was going to pay tribute to her. And

550
00:29:34,236 --> 00:29:38,956
Speaker 1: then we rehearsed it in my trailer. We were soprano, saxophone,

551
00:29:38,956 --> 00:29:42,156
Speaker 1: and my guitar singing her own song, and she started

552
00:29:42,156 --> 00:29:44,556
Speaker 1: to rock back and forth, and she said, well, maybe

553
00:29:44,556 --> 00:29:49,676
Speaker 1: I'll just do that one. So she was playful and wise,

554
00:29:49,956 --> 00:29:53,356
Speaker 1: and I asked her lots of questions about men, about

555
00:29:53,396 --> 00:29:55,076
Speaker 1: what it was like to be on the road when

556
00:29:55,076 --> 00:29:57,836
Speaker 1: she was a young woman with mostly men. I mean,

557
00:29:57,876 --> 00:30:00,036
Speaker 1: did she get hit on? Did they treat her with respect?

558
00:30:00,396 --> 00:30:02,756
Speaker 1: What was it like to be widowed by her husband

559
00:30:02,796 --> 00:30:06,196
Speaker 1: dying so relatively early? And did she miss being married?

560
00:30:06,276 --> 00:30:08,716
Speaker 1: And you know, I asked her about Jesus and asked

561
00:30:08,716 --> 00:30:11,916
Speaker 1: her about racism and Jim Crow, And it was an

562
00:30:11,956 --> 00:30:16,356
Speaker 1: incredible to have her as my kind of like a

563
00:30:16,436 --> 00:30:19,836
Speaker 1: grandmother or an elderly aunt, to give me a window

564
00:30:19,876 --> 00:30:24,076
Speaker 1: on her world musically and culturally. Did it help you

565
00:30:24,156 --> 00:30:26,156
Speaker 1: in those years when you were the woman on the

566
00:30:26,236 --> 00:30:29,876
Speaker 1: road usually opening for men and I'm sure getting hit on?

567
00:30:29,996 --> 00:30:32,996
Speaker 1: And well, I was just my own boss, you know.

568
00:30:33,116 --> 00:30:35,436
Speaker 1: I grew up with my dad having to my dad

569
00:30:35,556 --> 00:30:38,636
Speaker 1: mostly waiting to get another show. I mean, would he

570
00:30:38,676 --> 00:30:42,036
Speaker 1: would steady book himself in the summertime on the very

571
00:30:42,116 --> 00:30:46,756
Speaker 1: lucrative one star at touring in Carrousel, Oklahoma, Pajama game

572
00:30:47,116 --> 00:30:50,356
Speaker 1: shows that there there's a circuit of regional theater in

573
00:30:50,356 --> 00:30:52,796
Speaker 1: the summer, it's called summer Stock, And he would do

574
00:30:52,836 --> 00:30:55,156
Speaker 1: eight shows a week and for three months and just

575
00:30:55,196 --> 00:30:57,196
Speaker 1: be out there no air conditioning. Most of them are

576
00:30:57,236 --> 00:31:00,636
Speaker 1: intense in the round. But basically he didn't have a

577
00:31:00,716 --> 00:31:03,676
Speaker 1: chance to get a new He couldn't generate a new

578
00:31:03,756 --> 00:31:07,316
Speaker 1: show for himself. And I just noticed that, and I said,

579
00:31:07,356 --> 00:31:08,956
Speaker 1: you know what I'm gonna If I'm gonna do this,

580
00:31:09,876 --> 00:31:12,356
Speaker 1: I want to have total control over what I record

581
00:31:12,436 --> 00:31:15,316
Speaker 1: and when I released the record, and what the ticket

582
00:31:15,316 --> 00:31:18,396
Speaker 1: prices will be, and you know who I opened for

583
00:31:18,476 --> 00:31:21,956
Speaker 1: and who opens for me. And so I was much

584
00:31:21,996 --> 00:31:25,356
Speaker 1: more hands on self managing. You know, I needed a

585
00:31:25,356 --> 00:31:28,236
Speaker 1: booking agent and a tour manager, but the rest of

586
00:31:28,236 --> 00:31:31,316
Speaker 1: it I handled. So I think Sippy was more of

587
00:31:31,436 --> 00:31:34,116
Speaker 1: a woman of her time. She was very young when

588
00:31:34,156 --> 00:31:37,196
Speaker 1: she started, and then I think guys just took care

589
00:31:37,196 --> 00:31:39,916
Speaker 1: of her, you know, the guys, the music directors, but

590
00:31:40,156 --> 00:31:43,196
Speaker 1: they were always very respectful. She didn't have I think

591
00:31:43,236 --> 00:31:45,876
Speaker 1: she probably got married early to be able to be protected.

592
00:31:47,316 --> 00:31:49,396
Speaker 1: You talked about sort of being in control of your

593
00:31:49,396 --> 00:31:53,236
Speaker 1: own career, but then in the eighties your career took

594
00:31:53,276 --> 00:31:55,876
Speaker 1: this well, I'm not sure your career even took a dive.

595
00:31:56,036 --> 00:32:00,476
Speaker 1: Maybe record companies just changed their ways. But Warner Brothers

596
00:32:00,556 --> 00:32:03,916
Speaker 1: dropped you at the same time that I think Prince

597
00:32:04,036 --> 00:32:07,436
Speaker 1: was interested in working with you. Well within a few

598
00:32:07,476 --> 00:32:10,316
Speaker 1: years later. Yeah, I mean answer, I kind of veered

599
00:32:10,356 --> 00:32:12,476
Speaker 1: off when you asked me how I felt about the

600
00:32:12,636 --> 00:32:14,956
Speaker 1: seventies and my albums. You know, I would have liked

601
00:32:14,996 --> 00:32:18,596
Speaker 1: to have them promoted more. I mean, we always went

602
00:32:18,596 --> 00:32:20,276
Speaker 1: out of my way to have a good single on

603
00:32:20,316 --> 00:32:22,916
Speaker 1: the record, But I think because I didn't have a

604
00:32:22,996 --> 00:32:26,556
Speaker 1: manager and I didn't want to be directed at all

605
00:32:26,636 --> 00:32:28,596
Speaker 1: or told what to wear, and I didn't care about

606
00:32:28,636 --> 00:32:30,756
Speaker 1: having a hit single. I mean, my deal with Warners

607
00:32:30,796 --> 00:32:34,156
Speaker 1: was predicated on being an album artist. So it's something

608
00:32:34,196 --> 00:32:37,676
Speaker 1: that an Americana music now it's just not even thought of.

609
00:32:37,756 --> 00:32:40,796
Speaker 1: You know, if you straddle genres and you know you

610
00:32:40,796 --> 00:32:42,116
Speaker 1: don't want to have a you don't need to have

611
00:32:42,116 --> 00:32:45,036
Speaker 1: a commercial single off your record. That's people don't even

612
00:32:45,076 --> 00:32:47,996
Speaker 1: blink now. But back then they wanted you to be

613
00:32:48,076 --> 00:32:51,516
Speaker 1: able to promote a record. And when the record business

614
00:32:51,596 --> 00:32:55,956
Speaker 1: took off with Rumors and Thriller in Miami, Vice Soundtrack,

615
00:32:56,356 --> 00:32:59,676
Speaker 1: these were billion selling records and those of us that

616
00:32:59,756 --> 00:33:04,076
Speaker 1: were more moderate sellers just got pushed a little bit

617
00:33:04,116 --> 00:33:06,236
Speaker 1: to the side and they'd rather sign somebody else that

618
00:33:06,276 --> 00:33:08,276
Speaker 1: could bring in a more bang for their buck. They

619
00:33:08,276 --> 00:33:12,756
Speaker 1: were also absorbed big corporations, you know, Warner elector Atlantic, consolidated,

620
00:33:13,276 --> 00:33:16,836
Speaker 1: Warner Communications took over. There was a different set of

621
00:33:16,836 --> 00:33:21,956
Speaker 1: priorities in the eighties, so you know, they dropped t

622
00:33:22,156 --> 00:33:26,276
Speaker 1: Bone Burnett and Van Morrison and Arlo Guthrie and me,

623
00:33:26,436 --> 00:33:28,836
Speaker 1: and you know, we weren't bringing in the big bucks.

624
00:33:28,876 --> 00:33:32,236
Speaker 1: So the eighties weren't real friendly to my kind of music.

625
00:33:32,676 --> 00:33:35,756
Speaker 1: It wasn't a great political decade. There was this war

626
00:33:35,796 --> 00:33:39,516
Speaker 1: in Central America. It was alert to the right politically

627
00:33:39,996 --> 00:33:43,476
Speaker 1: and the consolidation of the record business, and it wasn't

628
00:33:43,516 --> 00:33:47,156
Speaker 1: until the end of the decade that the college radio

629
00:33:47,276 --> 00:33:51,836
Speaker 1: and album oriented rock and VH one came along. And

630
00:33:52,036 --> 00:33:55,996
Speaker 1: you know, Tracy Chapman had a number one record, Edie Brickell,

631
00:33:56,316 --> 00:34:00,036
Speaker 1: Robert Cray, the Fabulous Thunderbirds. My kind of music was

632
00:34:00,076 --> 00:34:03,036
Speaker 1: having hit a hit play, so I would it was

633
00:34:03,076 --> 00:34:04,756
Speaker 1: a good time for me to come back into the

634
00:34:04,796 --> 00:34:08,796
Speaker 1: four but I never expected to have that huge success.

635
00:34:08,796 --> 00:34:11,676
Speaker 1: I don't think anybody did. But you were back playing

636
00:34:11,756 --> 00:34:14,036
Speaker 1: solo shows, is that right? You didn't have a band

637
00:34:14,076 --> 00:34:16,876
Speaker 1: at that point. I played with my guitar player who

638
00:34:17,036 --> 00:34:19,276
Speaker 1: backed up on bass and sang harmony, and we would

639
00:34:19,316 --> 00:34:21,316
Speaker 1: do that in the months when we weren't with the

640
00:34:21,356 --> 00:34:25,796
Speaker 1: band in the summer and Prince approached me a couple

641
00:34:25,796 --> 00:34:29,036
Speaker 1: of years after I'd been dropped because I had a

642
00:34:29,076 --> 00:34:31,356
Speaker 1: record ready to come out and a tour with Stevie

643
00:34:31,396 --> 00:34:35,356
Speaker 1: Ray Vaughan, I had to cancel it, and he said,

644
00:34:35,396 --> 00:34:37,116
Speaker 1: you know you were treated badly, why don't you come

645
00:34:37,116 --> 00:34:39,116
Speaker 1: over with Paisley Park and make a record with me?

646
00:34:39,156 --> 00:34:41,756
Speaker 1: And we ended up trying to work on some things together,

647
00:34:41,836 --> 00:34:44,916
Speaker 1: but he had done the tracks all of himself in

648
00:34:44,996 --> 00:34:47,316
Speaker 1: a key that I don't sing in and lyrics that

649
00:34:47,396 --> 00:34:50,476
Speaker 1: I couldn't relate to. So we were going to work

650
00:34:50,516 --> 00:34:53,196
Speaker 1: together again in the future, but our schedules just didn't

651
00:34:53,196 --> 00:34:56,116
Speaker 1: work out. Was he a nice guy to work with

652
00:34:56,316 --> 00:34:59,436
Speaker 1: despite everything being in the wrong key. He was really

653
00:34:59,556 --> 00:35:02,436
Speaker 1: as fascinating as you read about him. He's very shy,

654
00:35:02,436 --> 00:35:04,516
Speaker 1: you know, when he ate dinner with him, he was like,

655
00:35:05,676 --> 00:35:08,196
Speaker 1: I felt uncomfortable because I'm pretty extroverted and he was

656
00:35:08,276 --> 00:35:12,116
Speaker 1: just really self conscious about looking down at his food

657
00:35:12,116 --> 00:35:13,636
Speaker 1: and putting the food in his mouth. So it was

658
00:35:13,716 --> 00:35:17,596
Speaker 1: kind of endearing. But what a badass though. You know.

659
00:35:17,596 --> 00:35:22,356
Speaker 1: It was just the combination of shy and sexually so forthright,

660
00:35:22,636 --> 00:35:25,836
Speaker 1: and you know the thing that all of us musicians

661
00:35:25,836 --> 00:35:28,996
Speaker 1: have in common is our love of music. So that's

662
00:35:29,036 --> 00:35:31,716
Speaker 1: what we just every time that we got together was

663
00:35:31,876 --> 00:35:35,676
Speaker 1: a couple of long evenings in LA and once in Minneapolis,

664
00:35:35,716 --> 00:35:39,596
Speaker 1: just huge floor to ceiling screens watching this. You know,

665
00:35:39,756 --> 00:35:42,996
Speaker 1: Staples Singers and Sly and the family Stone. I mean,

666
00:35:43,036 --> 00:35:45,916
Speaker 1: we just were Stone music fans, and that's what we

667
00:35:45,956 --> 00:35:49,156
Speaker 1: had in common. He was a great, great guy. Did

668
00:35:49,156 --> 00:35:51,796
Speaker 1: you ever just sit across from him and play guitar?

669
00:35:52,196 --> 00:35:54,516
Speaker 1: I played guitar on some of the tracks that he

670
00:35:54,556 --> 00:35:57,396
Speaker 1: had put together for us to poss for me to try,

671
00:35:57,676 --> 00:36:00,556
Speaker 1: and so I did that, but it was a thwarted

672
00:36:00,836 --> 00:36:03,436
Speaker 1: It wasn't a fully realized collaboration because I told him

673
00:36:03,476 --> 00:36:06,276
Speaker 1: I appreciated the interest, but I wanted to be fifty

674
00:36:06,316 --> 00:36:09,316
Speaker 1: fifty and and there's some things happen were you know,

675
00:36:09,396 --> 00:36:11,516
Speaker 1: I was injured and I had to get over a

676
00:36:11,556 --> 00:36:14,076
Speaker 1: thumb injury. So we had to postpone the sessions, and

677
00:36:14,276 --> 00:36:16,876
Speaker 1: so he went ahead and just got some songs from

678
00:36:16,876 --> 00:36:18,716
Speaker 1: his vault or wrote some songs that he thought I

679
00:36:18,756 --> 00:36:22,916
Speaker 1: would relate to, but they just weren't in my wheelhouse. So,

680
00:36:23,476 --> 00:36:25,676
Speaker 1: you know, just I wish we could have worked together

681
00:36:25,716 --> 00:36:28,836
Speaker 1: because I had great admiration for him. We have to

682
00:36:28,836 --> 00:36:30,876
Speaker 1: take a quick break, but we'll be right back with

683
00:36:30,956 --> 00:36:37,436
Speaker 1: more from Bonnie Ray. We're back with the rest of

684
00:36:37,436 --> 00:36:41,276
Speaker 1: Bruce's conversation with Bonnie Ray. I do want to talk

685
00:36:41,276 --> 00:36:43,836
Speaker 1: about some of the songwriters you've worked with and just

686
00:36:43,916 --> 00:36:47,596
Speaker 1: your first encounters, and I have to start with John Prine.

687
00:36:47,916 --> 00:36:50,196
Speaker 1: Can you tell me about meeting him or encountering his

688
00:36:50,276 --> 00:36:54,476
Speaker 1: songs for the first time. Yeah. I heard his first

689
00:36:54,476 --> 00:36:57,076
Speaker 1: album on Atlantic, his debut record, and I was just

690
00:36:57,276 --> 00:37:00,356
Speaker 1: absolutely floored. And I don't know when in the timeline,

691
00:37:00,956 --> 00:37:02,876
Speaker 1: but I was playing the Gaslight and he was playing

692
00:37:02,916 --> 00:37:05,556
Speaker 1: The Bitter End, And we ended up meeting in New

693
00:37:05,636 --> 00:37:08,796
Speaker 1: York City in the village, and soon after we both

694
00:37:08,836 --> 00:37:12,276
Speaker 1: played the Philadelphia Folk Festival together, and we just forged

695
00:37:12,276 --> 00:37:14,876
Speaker 1: a friendship right away that was absolutely immediate. He was

696
00:37:14,876 --> 00:37:16,396
Speaker 1: a fan of mine, I was a fan of his.

697
00:37:16,876 --> 00:37:19,836
Speaker 1: Who was Angel the first song you did his? Yes,

698
00:37:20,316 --> 00:37:22,036
Speaker 1: I knew of the first time I heard that song

699
00:37:22,076 --> 00:37:24,476
Speaker 1: on his album, that I'd be cutting that song, and

700
00:37:24,516 --> 00:37:28,076
Speaker 1: I just just astonished that someone of his age could

701
00:37:28,116 --> 00:37:31,756
Speaker 1: crawl inside that woman who in that long time marriage

702
00:37:32,436 --> 00:37:36,956
Speaker 1: and just so beautifully and succinctly. I mean, he's so

703
00:37:37,036 --> 00:37:40,676
Speaker 1: much has been written, especially since he passed, But I

704
00:37:40,756 --> 00:37:44,276
Speaker 1: mean the masterpiece of economy of that song, and how

705
00:37:44,316 --> 00:37:48,556
Speaker 1: every line is just laden with meaning and you don't

706
00:37:48,796 --> 00:37:51,196
Speaker 1: need to go in. It doesn't have to be a

707
00:37:51,236 --> 00:37:55,436
Speaker 1: long story. It's just immediately there. And I sing that

708
00:37:55,516 --> 00:37:59,196
Speaker 1: song for all the women when I was a young woman,

709
00:37:59,276 --> 00:38:02,036
Speaker 1: for all the women that are stuck in marriages and

710
00:38:02,116 --> 00:38:05,156
Speaker 1: can't leave if they wanted to try a different kind

711
00:38:05,156 --> 00:38:08,356
Speaker 1: of life, or get a job, or have someone to

712
00:38:08,396 --> 00:38:12,036
Speaker 1: talk to, just not I remember seeing the film The

713
00:38:12,076 --> 00:38:17,236
Speaker 1: Bridges of Madison County and thinking that so perfectly described

714
00:38:17,276 --> 00:38:20,756
Speaker 1: what Angel from Montgomery was about without giving it away,

715
00:38:20,796 --> 00:38:23,596
Speaker 1: that moment when she makes a decision to not follow

716
00:38:23,596 --> 00:38:28,716
Speaker 1: her bliss. So I sing the song for my mom's generation.

717
00:38:28,836 --> 00:38:31,076
Speaker 1: I sing the song for women around the world that

718
00:38:31,196 --> 00:38:34,116
Speaker 1: don't have the choice to get stay single, or get

719
00:38:34,116 --> 00:38:37,116
Speaker 1: out of a bad marriage, or get an education. So

720
00:38:37,196 --> 00:38:41,836
Speaker 1: it's taken on very mythic proportions for me. Another writer

721
00:38:41,876 --> 00:38:44,676
Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you about was Richard Thompson. Oh,

722
00:38:44,716 --> 00:38:47,476
Speaker 1: I'm so glad he's another guy that how could he

723
00:38:47,516 --> 00:38:50,236
Speaker 1: write that dimming of the day in his early twenties.

724
00:38:50,396 --> 00:38:53,836
Speaker 1: You know, give me a break. He's one of the

725
00:38:53,876 --> 00:38:57,956
Speaker 1: greatest ones we have. I'm a huge fan of his,

726
00:38:58,156 --> 00:39:02,716
Speaker 1: and he's as fascinating a person. He has a wonderful

727
00:39:02,756 --> 00:39:06,596
Speaker 1: memoir that he just put out, and it's really his

728
00:39:06,756 --> 00:39:13,356
Speaker 1: Sufi religion, his path going to the Sufi spirituality. Mixed

729
00:39:13,396 --> 00:39:16,316
Speaker 1: in with all of it, the wonderful behind the scenes

730
00:39:16,876 --> 00:39:20,556
Speaker 1: of what it was like to be creating an entirely

731
00:39:20,676 --> 00:39:24,876
Speaker 1: new form of music by electrifying and making originals of

732
00:39:24,996 --> 00:39:28,956
Speaker 1: Celtic traditions. It's just there's nobody like him. He's absolutely brilliant.

733
00:39:29,476 --> 00:39:31,956
Speaker 1: You know. It's one of my fantasies that you do

734
00:39:31,996 --> 00:39:36,276
Speaker 1: an entire album of Richard Thompson songs. What a cool idea,

735
00:39:36,796 --> 00:39:39,316
Speaker 1: you know, down where the Drunkard's roll or walking on

736
00:39:39,356 --> 00:39:43,516
Speaker 1: the wire, misunderstood persuasion. I mean, there's so many that

737
00:39:43,596 --> 00:39:47,676
Speaker 1: I love. You could do fifty two vincent black Lightning

738
00:39:47,716 --> 00:39:50,276
Speaker 1: from the point of view the woman. Oh my god,

739
00:39:50,756 --> 00:39:53,436
Speaker 1: that would be very original. That would be mighty, wouldn't it.

740
00:39:53,756 --> 00:39:56,596
Speaker 1: I mean, it's a woman with red hair and a motorcycle.

741
00:39:56,636 --> 00:39:58,916
Speaker 1: I don't I'd have to sing about a guy with

742
00:39:59,036 --> 00:40:01,676
Speaker 1: a black hair on the motorcycle, but you could do

743
00:40:01,716 --> 00:40:05,156
Speaker 1: it anyway you want it. That's my elevator, pitch Well suggested,

744
00:40:05,236 --> 00:40:08,236
Speaker 1: because I just think he's phenomenal and he keeps growing

745
00:40:08,276 --> 00:40:10,876
Speaker 1: and he's so a thick and if it was just

746
00:40:10,956 --> 00:40:14,156
Speaker 1: his songwriting, that would be enough to put him in

747
00:40:14,196 --> 00:40:18,676
Speaker 1: the top. But his singing style and his topics and

748
00:40:18,836 --> 00:40:23,716
Speaker 1: his guitar playing, I mean, really thank you for reminding

749
00:40:23,756 --> 00:40:25,876
Speaker 1: me to so I could just live in that moment

750
00:40:26,076 --> 00:40:29,276
Speaker 1: with him. And you're a big Mose Allison fan. I

751
00:40:29,316 --> 00:40:32,436
Speaker 1: am a huge Mose Allison fan. Now have you done

752
00:40:32,476 --> 00:40:35,956
Speaker 1: a lot of his songs? Or I've only done Everybody's

753
00:40:35,996 --> 00:40:37,916
Speaker 1: Crying Mercy? I did that on my third album in

754
00:40:38,036 --> 00:40:42,716
Speaker 1: seventy three, and I had become a headliner. I first

755
00:40:42,756 --> 00:40:46,796
Speaker 1: opened for Jackson Brown my first national tour in seventy four,

756
00:40:47,516 --> 00:40:50,876
Speaker 1: one woman in thirteen guys in both bands on one bus.

757
00:40:51,316 --> 00:40:55,396
Speaker 1: It was fifty cities of that. It was incredible. But

758
00:40:55,796 --> 00:40:58,676
Speaker 1: after that I was able to headline and I invited

759
00:40:58,756 --> 00:41:01,396
Speaker 1: Tom Waits to come and open the tour. So and

760
00:41:01,476 --> 00:41:04,356
Speaker 1: somewhere in there I asked Mose Allison if he would

761
00:41:04,356 --> 00:41:07,196
Speaker 1: like to do It was either three or six weeks together,

762
00:41:07,276 --> 00:41:10,156
Speaker 1: probably three of colleges, and I know it was an

763
00:41:10,236 --> 00:41:14,156
Speaker 1: unusual idea, but he I said, Mose, you know we could,

764
00:41:14,356 --> 00:41:16,236
Speaker 1: You could make good money. I'll give you, I'll pay

765
00:41:16,236 --> 00:41:18,916
Speaker 1: you more than what you're asking, and you can open

766
00:41:18,996 --> 00:41:21,396
Speaker 1: up this whole market that needs to know about you.

767
00:41:21,876 --> 00:41:24,796
Speaker 1: And he said yes, so selfishly. Just to be able

768
00:41:24,796 --> 00:41:26,556
Speaker 1: to sit in the wings and listen to him every night,

769
00:41:26,556 --> 00:41:29,116
Speaker 1: it was incredible and we were very good friends all

770
00:41:29,116 --> 00:41:32,596
Speaker 1: the way through his life. I hear ideas of his

771
00:41:32,756 --> 00:41:36,476
Speaker 1: sometimes in your music, including on this album, but other

772
00:41:36,556 --> 00:41:38,916
Speaker 1: than the one song I Know You Haven't you haven't

773
00:41:38,916 --> 00:41:42,236
Speaker 1: covered him. My older brother brought a record of his one.

774
00:41:42,316 --> 00:41:45,716
Speaker 1: You know how you idolize your siblings sometimes when they're older.

775
00:41:45,716 --> 00:41:48,836
Speaker 1: And he was dating someone from Bennington College and we

776
00:41:48,996 --> 00:41:52,276
Speaker 1: came back to Christmas vacation and he brought the Birds

777
00:41:52,356 --> 00:41:56,836
Speaker 1: and Freddie Hubbard and John Lee Hooker and later Jimmy Hendrix,

778
00:41:56,876 --> 00:41:59,636
Speaker 1: but he brought Mose Allison's record. That's where I first

779
00:41:59,636 --> 00:42:02,476
Speaker 1: heard it. I was like sixteen, and I just couldn't

780
00:42:02,476 --> 00:42:04,396
Speaker 1: wait to be a beatneck and go to New York

781
00:42:04,436 --> 00:42:08,636
Speaker 1: and hang out with guys with turtlenecks and berets and goatees,

782
00:42:10,116 --> 00:42:12,356
Speaker 1: and I just think Mose is the coolest blues guy

783
00:42:12,356 --> 00:42:16,556
Speaker 1: I've ever heard in my life. Incredible. So the eighties,

784
00:42:16,916 --> 00:42:20,236
Speaker 1: your career, or Warner's career wasn't going so well, let

785
00:42:20,236 --> 00:42:22,036
Speaker 1: me put it that way, and then you had this

786
00:42:22,196 --> 00:42:27,036
Speaker 1: incredible tear when you went to Capital and they signed

787
00:42:27,036 --> 00:42:29,076
Speaker 1: you for some small deal for one hundred and fifty

788
00:42:29,116 --> 00:42:31,596
Speaker 1: thousand or something, not even that one hundred twenty five

789
00:42:31,636 --> 00:42:34,596
Speaker 1: I think. But all we needed was the budget. That

790
00:42:34,716 --> 00:42:37,396
Speaker 1: was the budget we were going to make the record with. Well,

791
00:42:37,716 --> 00:42:40,236
Speaker 1: that was the best one hundred twenty five thousand dollars

792
00:42:40,316 --> 00:42:43,796
Speaker 1: Capitol Records ever spent. Well what did they know? I mean,

793
00:42:43,836 --> 00:42:45,596
Speaker 1: they knew that if we were going to make a

794
00:42:45,636 --> 00:42:48,116
Speaker 1: really simple record that it doesn't cost you know, I

795
00:42:48,156 --> 00:42:50,876
Speaker 1: just make records live mostly, it doesn't shouldn't cost that

796
00:42:50,956 --> 00:42:53,236
Speaker 1: much to make. I don't do big productions or anything.

797
00:42:53,756 --> 00:42:57,756
Speaker 1: And Joe Smith signed me to Warners in seventy one,

798
00:42:57,796 --> 00:43:00,796
Speaker 1: and he signed me to Capitol and eighty eight, So

799
00:43:01,036 --> 00:43:03,556
Speaker 1: that was part of it. But to have a new label,

800
00:43:04,476 --> 00:43:07,196
Speaker 1: some of which are people that some of the people

801
00:43:07,276 --> 00:43:10,636
Speaker 1: came over from Warners with Joe, but they had something

802
00:43:10,636 --> 00:43:14,196
Speaker 1: to prove. They knew that I was really changing my

803
00:43:14,236 --> 00:43:16,276
Speaker 1: life and wanting to make a really great record, and

804
00:43:17,036 --> 00:43:20,156
Speaker 1: my pairing with Don was was real kismet. It was great.

805
00:43:20,636 --> 00:43:24,116
Speaker 1: What else changed you think that made it suddenly possible

806
00:43:24,156 --> 00:43:27,076
Speaker 1: for people to hear you in a different way. Well,

807
00:43:27,196 --> 00:43:29,276
Speaker 1: Number one, I think it was a switch and label

808
00:43:29,316 --> 00:43:32,396
Speaker 1: and have a very enthusiastic team that had something to prove.

809
00:43:33,916 --> 00:43:36,556
Speaker 1: H one and was just starting. And I would have

810
00:43:36,676 --> 00:43:40,116
Speaker 1: never been played on MTV because I was forty years

811
00:43:40,116 --> 00:43:43,516
Speaker 1: old so and not a babe. So VH one needed

812
00:43:43,596 --> 00:43:48,156
Speaker 1: some new artists to showcase their new adult channel. You know,

813
00:43:48,716 --> 00:43:50,636
Speaker 1: I don't know. You can't call it an adult channel.

814
00:43:50,636 --> 00:43:52,356
Speaker 1: What can you call it mature? I don't know what

815
00:43:52,356 --> 00:43:54,676
Speaker 1: it could call it. It's just not the kids channel.

816
00:43:55,556 --> 00:43:58,476
Speaker 1: I think the fact that I got sober and eighty

817
00:43:58,516 --> 00:44:03,676
Speaker 1: seven and was much healthier and happier and had written

818
00:44:03,716 --> 00:44:06,036
Speaker 1: some songs, and you know, I had a particularly good

819
00:44:06,076 --> 00:44:08,916
Speaker 1: batch of tunes and a great partner and Don was

820
00:44:09,836 --> 00:44:12,676
Speaker 1: and all of those things coupled with the fact that

821
00:44:12,836 --> 00:44:16,716
Speaker 1: radio actually had formats that would play me. That is

822
00:44:16,756 --> 00:44:19,996
Speaker 1: a huge change from the middle of the eighties and before.

823
00:44:21,036 --> 00:44:23,636
Speaker 1: There's no way that Tracy Chapman would have won Album

824
00:44:23,716 --> 00:44:27,516
Speaker 1: the Year in nineteen eighty one, or eating Eatie Brickell

825
00:44:27,636 --> 00:44:30,636
Speaker 1: or the Thunderbirds or Robert Cray having big hit records

826
00:44:30,676 --> 00:44:35,236
Speaker 1: like that. So things have changed and the burgeoning American

827
00:44:35,356 --> 00:44:38,356
Speaker 1: I'm seen kind of what was happening right about that time.

828
00:44:39,156 --> 00:44:41,036
Speaker 1: Are there still outlets that are going to play your

829
00:44:41,116 --> 00:44:43,556
Speaker 1: new stuff, that are going to say, here's the new

830
00:44:43,636 --> 00:44:46,236
Speaker 1: bonny rate? Yes, I think so, I mean there's only

831
00:44:46,316 --> 00:44:48,916
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't get mainstream play. I don't think

832
00:44:48,956 --> 00:44:50,596
Speaker 1: at all. I've only had a couple of songs that

833
00:44:50,676 --> 00:44:53,556
Speaker 1: crossed over in the in that Nick of Time period

834
00:44:53,716 --> 00:44:56,356
Speaker 1: with I Can't Make You Love Me and have a

835
00:44:56,396 --> 00:44:59,396
Speaker 1: Heart maybe, And I think Thing called Love was a

836
00:44:59,516 --> 00:45:03,956
Speaker 1: radio hit, but only on the adult album are adult

837
00:45:04,236 --> 00:45:09,036
Speaker 1: oriented radio whatever, there's AC and AC light, adult content,

838
00:45:09,516 --> 00:45:12,916
Speaker 1: adult contemporary light. Those stations that would play Nick of

839
00:45:12,956 --> 00:45:15,236
Speaker 1: Time wouldn't play Thing called Love and vice versa. And

840
00:45:15,276 --> 00:45:20,116
Speaker 1: I think nowadays there's tremendous competition, not just for styles

841
00:45:20,116 --> 00:45:24,396
Speaker 1: of music, but four generations of music. I mean, every

842
00:45:24,396 --> 00:45:28,236
Speaker 1: four years is another thirty artists that are vying for

843
00:45:28,316 --> 00:45:31,916
Speaker 1: the same radio time. So I'm thank god I got

844
00:45:31,956 --> 00:45:34,676
Speaker 1: my foot in the door in the nineties because I'm

845
00:45:34,716 --> 00:45:38,476
Speaker 1: still played as a legacy artist on You know, I

846
00:45:38,516 --> 00:45:41,916
Speaker 1: don't really study the formats of the stations that play me,

847
00:45:41,996 --> 00:45:44,276
Speaker 1: but I just know that there's independent what we call

848
00:45:44,436 --> 00:45:47,836
Speaker 1: FM stations that have been incredibly loyal to me and

849
00:45:48,556 --> 00:45:51,236
Speaker 1: probably get a little play on college stations and maybe

850
00:45:51,316 --> 00:45:54,156
Speaker 1: even country stations. I don't know, but there's a circuit

851
00:45:54,196 --> 00:45:57,316
Speaker 1: that plays me just like they played John Hyatt, John Prine,

852
00:45:57,676 --> 00:46:02,316
Speaker 1: Jackson Brown. Thank God. It's a little bit wildering to

853
00:46:02,396 --> 00:46:05,836
Speaker 1: me that I mentioned the song off your last album

854
00:46:05,916 --> 00:46:08,836
Speaker 1: with the ones we Couldn't Be, which, you know, to me,

855
00:46:08,996 --> 00:46:11,436
Speaker 1: I don't see any reason why that's not as big

856
00:46:11,476 --> 00:46:15,396
Speaker 1: a hit as I Can't Make You Love Me. Oh

857
00:46:15,436 --> 00:46:18,556
Speaker 1: my gosh. You know, no one's ever mentioned that song really,

858
00:46:18,716 --> 00:46:21,636
Speaker 1: really no. I mean, I'm very proud of it, but

859
00:46:21,676 --> 00:46:23,756
Speaker 1: it's I just figured it's too personally, you know. I

860
00:46:23,796 --> 00:46:26,116
Speaker 1: have a three or four songs like that that are

861
00:46:26,156 --> 00:46:30,196
Speaker 1: on the keyboard and kind of contemplative, you know, not

862
00:46:30,396 --> 00:46:34,716
Speaker 1: universal themes, but very personal, and they probably don't have

863
00:46:34,756 --> 00:46:37,076
Speaker 1: the production or the musical style to cross over and

864
00:46:37,156 --> 00:46:39,836
Speaker 1: be a single like that. I mean, there's a beautiful

865
00:46:39,836 --> 00:46:42,756
Speaker 1: song called Wounded Hard. A couple of albums before that

866
00:46:42,876 --> 00:46:47,836
Speaker 1: I thought was just a massive deepening for everybody to

867
00:46:47,876 --> 00:46:50,596
Speaker 1: listen to. It's by Jude Johnston. But thank you for

868
00:46:50,636 --> 00:46:53,396
Speaker 1: appreciating that. I just I wish in a perfect world

869
00:46:53,396 --> 00:46:56,796
Speaker 1: that those every ballad could have a lot of showcase.

870
00:46:57,596 --> 00:47:01,396
Speaker 1: So you've continued to put out albums great album since,

871
00:47:01,436 --> 00:47:04,836
Speaker 1: like Fundamental and slip Stream, which I think did very

872
00:47:04,956 --> 00:47:08,156
Speaker 1: very well for you. How was this new album different

873
00:47:08,156 --> 00:47:12,196
Speaker 1: for you? Obviously the world was different. Yes, with COVID,

874
00:47:12,796 --> 00:47:15,476
Speaker 1: was there a different thought going into this record? It's

875
00:47:15,476 --> 00:47:17,756
Speaker 1: always the same for me. I find a ten or

876
00:47:17,796 --> 00:47:20,996
Speaker 1: twelve best songs I can find and write some that

877
00:47:21,796 --> 00:47:24,356
Speaker 1: say things that I can't find from other people. And

878
00:47:25,476 --> 00:47:29,516
Speaker 1: I've got the same focus of looking for new things

879
00:47:29,516 --> 00:47:32,596
Speaker 1: to say and new ways to say it and stretch

880
00:47:32,636 --> 00:47:36,156
Speaker 1: if I can, and have a couple of surprises for people.

881
00:47:37,076 --> 00:47:39,196
Speaker 1: So it wasn't really different. It's just we just had

882
00:47:39,236 --> 00:47:40,836
Speaker 1: to wait a long time before I could get in

883
00:47:40,876 --> 00:47:44,316
Speaker 1: the studio, and you know, there was no assurance that

884
00:47:45,036 --> 00:47:47,236
Speaker 1: this year was going to actually the tour that we

885
00:47:47,316 --> 00:47:49,796
Speaker 1: booked a year ago for this year. We didn't have

886
00:47:49,836 --> 00:47:51,956
Speaker 1: any idea, and I guess we still don't know if

887
00:47:51,996 --> 00:47:54,836
Speaker 1: it's going to one hundred percent happened, but it looks

888
00:47:54,836 --> 00:47:57,636
Speaker 1: pretty good. So I called up May the Staples, and

889
00:47:57,636 --> 00:48:00,276
Speaker 1: I called up Lucinda Williams, and I said, would you

890
00:48:00,396 --> 00:48:03,156
Speaker 1: be my special guests? So the tour is kind of

891
00:48:03,156 --> 00:48:06,316
Speaker 1: split with them, each one of them doing a different part,

892
00:48:06,476 --> 00:48:10,076
Speaker 1: and the sales have been great so far. So going

893
00:48:10,116 --> 00:48:12,436
Speaker 1: into this record, I just knew that I wanted to

894
00:48:12,436 --> 00:48:14,676
Speaker 1: stretch a little bit and do those acoustic songs that

895
00:48:14,756 --> 00:48:17,756
Speaker 1: are not about my personal life. And I also wanted

896
00:48:17,756 --> 00:48:22,276
Speaker 1: to write a song about recovery, and just not just recovery,

897
00:48:22,316 --> 00:48:24,876
Speaker 1: but the way the devil is on your shoulder trying

898
00:48:24,916 --> 00:48:26,636
Speaker 1: to urge you to do the things that you know

899
00:48:26,676 --> 00:48:29,756
Speaker 1: you shouldn't do, and what a slippery slope that is

900
00:48:30,276 --> 00:48:33,596
Speaker 1: and musically waiting for you to blow, which is the

901
00:48:33,716 --> 00:48:36,596
Speaker 1: music to that idea. That has some of the more

902
00:48:36,676 --> 00:48:39,596
Speaker 1: adventurous musical arranging that I've ever come up with, So

903
00:48:39,996 --> 00:48:42,156
Speaker 1: I'm proud of I'm especially proud of that one. And

904
00:48:42,196 --> 00:48:44,836
Speaker 1: then Living for the Ones is the song I wanted

905
00:48:44,876 --> 00:48:47,236
Speaker 1: to write about what we just went through in the

906
00:48:47,276 --> 00:48:49,836
Speaker 1: last couple of years and all the people that we've lost.

907
00:48:49,956 --> 00:48:52,636
Speaker 1: So I got a little bit of everything that I

908
00:48:52,676 --> 00:48:56,076
Speaker 1: needed to say in there. Okay, we are anticipating all

909
00:48:56,076 --> 00:49:01,116
Speaker 1: my questions, which is good. No, No, that's absolutely fine.

910
00:49:01,476 --> 00:49:04,756
Speaker 1: But I do want to ask you about the other

911
00:49:04,796 --> 00:49:08,796
Speaker 1: slower song, the story song on this which was down

912
00:49:08,796 --> 00:49:11,156
Speaker 1: the hall. Tell me a bit about that. Well, that

913
00:49:11,196 --> 00:49:14,476
Speaker 1: one was great journalism by the New York Times. Again,

914
00:49:14,556 --> 00:49:18,676
Speaker 1: the Sunday magazine has some of the most incisive, unexpected stories,

915
00:49:18,676 --> 00:49:21,876
Speaker 1: and I make room in my life to read cover

916
00:49:21,956 --> 00:49:25,436
Speaker 1: to cover unless I'm too blown out by reading about

917
00:49:25,476 --> 00:49:29,396
Speaker 1: war and poverty and starvation on a Sunday morning. So

918
00:49:29,516 --> 00:49:35,476
Speaker 1: I saw this photo essay and a beautiful article in

919
00:49:35,516 --> 00:49:39,316
Speaker 1: the New York Times magazine Sunday paper in May of

920
00:49:39,676 --> 00:49:45,476
Speaker 1: twenty eighteen, and I just was devastated. When I finished,

921
00:49:45,556 --> 00:49:49,596
Speaker 1: I just wept. I put it down and I just wept.

922
00:49:49,636 --> 00:49:51,476
Speaker 1: And I don't even know if I went outside again

923
00:49:51,556 --> 00:49:54,276
Speaker 1: that day. And it continued to stay with me and

924
00:49:54,356 --> 00:49:57,516
Speaker 1: moved me so deeply, and I knew that it was

925
00:49:57,556 --> 00:50:00,196
Speaker 1: going to be what I wanted to write a song about.

926
00:50:00,756 --> 00:50:03,716
Speaker 1: And it had to do with a prison hospice program

927
00:50:03,716 --> 00:50:08,316
Speaker 1: where in Vacaville, California. They have a program where volunt

928
00:50:09,356 --> 00:50:12,436
Speaker 1: prisoners can volunteer to be of service on the hospice board.

929
00:50:12,716 --> 00:50:16,236
Speaker 1: And the photos that accompanied the interviews and the writing

930
00:50:16,236 --> 00:50:20,036
Speaker 1: of Seleca's incredible writing for the piece, which was one

931
00:50:20,076 --> 00:50:23,556
Speaker 1: of the most beautiful marriages of journalism and heart and

932
00:50:23,956 --> 00:50:27,316
Speaker 1: human interest and redemption and grace, and those are the

933
00:50:27,356 --> 00:50:29,876
Speaker 1: things that in the last couple of years, with the

934
00:50:29,996 --> 00:50:35,636
Speaker 1: wrenching polarity and vitriol and climate nightmare and suffering and

935
00:50:35,756 --> 00:50:39,436
Speaker 1: migration and black lives matter, it's unprecedented and I don't

936
00:50:39,436 --> 00:50:44,036
Speaker 1: know how to handle it. So I was really moved

937
00:50:44,036 --> 00:50:47,556
Speaker 1: by the impact of this story, and I knew I

938
00:50:47,556 --> 00:50:49,356
Speaker 1: wanted to write a song from the point of view

939
00:50:49,356 --> 00:50:52,316
Speaker 1: of someone I would make that decision that, you know,

940
00:50:52,516 --> 00:50:55,436
Speaker 1: for no gain, no shortening of his sentence, no money.

941
00:50:56,156 --> 00:50:59,396
Speaker 1: Just saw a guy being wheeled into the hospice ward

942
00:50:59,396 --> 00:51:02,436
Speaker 1: and asked the nurse if his family he comes in

943
00:51:02,516 --> 00:51:04,516
Speaker 1: at the end, and she said most of them don't

944
00:51:04,516 --> 00:51:07,116
Speaker 1: have anybody, and he just, you know, what else has

945
00:51:07,116 --> 00:51:09,236
Speaker 1: he got to do? He didn't have to volunteer it.

946
00:51:09,916 --> 00:51:12,596
Speaker 1: I just put myself in his place and what it

947
00:51:12,636 --> 00:51:15,996
Speaker 1: would be like for him to get over the tribal

948
00:51:16,796 --> 00:51:20,516
Speaker 1: segregation and animosity of one population in the prison community

949
00:51:21,236 --> 00:51:23,516
Speaker 1: has for the other, and they in the hospital. Word,

950
00:51:23,596 --> 00:51:27,996
Speaker 1: everybody's the same. We all need human contact and love

951
00:51:28,036 --> 00:51:30,716
Speaker 1: and care and someone to be with us at the end.

952
00:51:30,756 --> 00:51:33,636
Speaker 1: And I just wanted to be able to write songs,

953
00:51:33,676 --> 00:51:38,396
Speaker 1: these two songs about redemption and grace and forgiveness, and

954
00:51:39,236 --> 00:51:42,436
Speaker 1: I think it's medicine for these difficult times and they're

955
00:51:42,436 --> 00:51:45,796
Speaker 1: beautiful songs. Thank you so much for talking. Thank you,

956
00:51:46,036 --> 00:51:48,796
Speaker 1: Thank you for appreciating what I do and making these

957
00:51:48,836 --> 00:51:55,116
Speaker 1: great suggestions as well. Thanks the Bonny Rate for talking

958
00:51:55,116 --> 00:51:58,236
Speaker 1: about the inspiration behind her new album Just like that.

959
00:51:59,036 --> 00:52:00,636
Speaker 1: You can hear a new album and all of our

960
00:52:00,676 --> 00:52:03,596
Speaker 1: favorite Bonnie Rate songs on my playlist at broken record

961
00:52:03,636 --> 00:52:07,076
Speaker 1: podcast dot com. Be sure to subscribe to our YouTube

962
00:52:07,156 --> 00:52:10,636
Speaker 1: channel YouTube dot com slash broken record Podcast, where you

963
00:52:10,676 --> 00:52:13,836
Speaker 1: can find all of our new episodes. You can follow

964
00:52:13,916 --> 00:52:16,916
Speaker 1: us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record is produced

965
00:52:16,916 --> 00:52:20,716
Speaker 1: with help from Lea Rose, Jason Gambrel, Bent, Holiday, Eric Sandler,

966
00:52:20,796 --> 00:52:24,476
Speaker 1: and Jennifer Sanchez, with engineering help from Nick Chafee. Our

967
00:52:24,516 --> 00:52:28,676
Speaker 1: executive producer is Mia Lobell. Broken Record is a production

968
00:52:28,676 --> 00:52:31,436
Speaker 1: of Pushkin Industries. If you like this show and others

969
00:52:31,436 --> 00:52:35,436
Speaker 1: from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is

970
00:52:35,476 --> 00:52:39,316
Speaker 1: a podcast subscription that offers bonus content an uninterrupted ad

971
00:52:39,316 --> 00:52:42,396
Speaker 1: free listening for four ninety nine a month. Look for

972
00:52:42,436 --> 00:52:46,036
Speaker 1: Pushkin Plus on Apple Podcasts subscriptions, and if you like

973
00:52:46,076 --> 00:52:48,636
Speaker 1: the show, please remember to share, rate, and review us

974
00:52:48,676 --> 00:52:51,436
Speaker 1: on your podcast app Our theme musics by Kenny Beats.

975
00:52:51,716 --> 00:52:52,756
Speaker 1: I'm justin Richmond.