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Speaker 1: For this week's Rewind, we're skipping episode 115 and jumping

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Speaker 1: straight into 116. Former contributors were part of the network

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Speaker 1: at the time these episodes originally aired, and we're choosing

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Speaker 1: not to platform them in any way moving forward. Thank

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Speaker 1: you for understanding. Hello, and welcome to Rewind with Karen

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Speaker 1: and Georgia.

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Speaker 2: This is the show where we look back on our

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Speaker 2: old episodes from 2018 with all new insights and case

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Speaker 2: updates and SEO search terms.

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Speaker 1: This episode originally came out on April 12th, 2018.

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Speaker 2: So let's listen to the intro of episode 116. Are

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Speaker 2: we doing it? Enough. Let's do it. Here we go. Ready? Ready? Okay.

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Speaker 2: Were you a cheerleader? Do I fucking look like I

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Speaker 2: was a cheerleader? Were you? Yes. Yeah, it doesn't make

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Speaker 2: a lot of sense. And looking back, I shouldn't have been. But...

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Speaker 2: If you start anything, ready, okay is a great way

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Speaker 2: to start. Ready, okay. This is my favorite murder, the podcast. Hey, cheerleaders. Hey,

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Speaker 2: cheerleaders and cheer don'ts. Get your herkies on. It's time

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Speaker 2: for your favorite true crime cheerleading podcast. My Favorite Murder.

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Speaker 3: It's time for the first 45 minutes of your first

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Speaker 3: true crime podcast.

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Speaker 2: Where there's no true crime, a lot of personal issues.

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Speaker 2: That's Georgia Hardstark. That's Karen Kilgara. And there's Stephen Ray Morris.

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Speaker 2: Hardstark Kilgara.

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Speaker 3: We're calling him now.

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Speaker 2: Stephen Hardstark Kilgara. Yeah, we've changed his name. Oh, Stephen,

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Speaker 2: we've legally changed your name. Stephen.

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Speaker 4: Cool.

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Speaker 2: We also enrolled you in a Montessori kindergarten just so

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Speaker 2: we could get the experience of being hyphenate parents. That's right.

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Speaker 5: Can I wash my feet?

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Speaker 1: Yes.

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Speaker 3: Did you see someone today on Twitter was like, Georgia,

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Speaker 3: I found this at a library and you weren't wrong.

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Speaker 3: And it's like a children's book called, like, Can I

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Speaker 3: Wash My Feet at Montessori? No. Or some fucking weird, like,

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Speaker 3: next level.

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Speaker 2: By Georgia Hardship. And it worked. You self-published, which is awesome.

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Speaker 2: That's right. And you planted it in a library.

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Speaker 3: I was like, someone's going to look in here, a

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Speaker 3: random murderino with a Twitter account.

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Speaker 2: Love it.

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Speaker 3: I think, as the kids say, this podcast has blazered itself.

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Speaker 2: I think this podcast has ripped the back out of

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Speaker 2: its own blazer.

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Speaker 3: Yes. They're cheap Mervin's blazers. It needs to calm down.

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Speaker 2: I just had a flash. Yeah. Of shopping Mervin's. So

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Speaker 2: anybody that's not from, I think it's California only. Okay.

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Speaker 3: I'm sure there's like equivalents at some place.

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Speaker 2: We'll hear about it. If Mervin's was in your town,

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Speaker 2: we'd like to know. But Petaluma had a Mervin's, which

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Speaker 2: is one of the only like larger stores in my town.

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Speaker 2: It's like a mini department store. Right.

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Speaker 3: It's like a mini cheap department store.

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Speaker 2: It was almost like the original Target, but it didn't

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Speaker 2: have cool things to buy. It just had like... Just

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Speaker 2: department store stuff though, like a JCPenney. Exactly. But almost

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Speaker 2: like lower rent than JCPenney. Like JCPenney was for the

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Speaker 2: rich kids. We were over at Mervin's. Uh, and that's

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Speaker 2: where you bought us, where everybody in my school and

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Speaker 2: town bought their first bra.

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Speaker 1: I was going to say, I stole my first bra

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Speaker 1: from Mervin's.

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Speaker 2: We were just trying to pass the fucking time.

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Speaker 3: Dude, the most boring thing in the world was going

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Speaker 3: shopping with your mom.

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Speaker 2: At Mervin's. At Mervin's. At Mervin's today.

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Speaker 3: I learned real quick that my mom would be like,

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Speaker 3: come shopping with me. I'll buy you a lipstick or whatever.

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Speaker 3: She'll buy me a little trinket, which is great. And

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Speaker 3: I'd be like, okay. But then I didn't realize that

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Speaker 3: meant four and a half hours of my mom in

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Speaker 3: the fucking dressing room. Yes. Like four and a half

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Speaker 3: literal hours.

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Speaker 2: Of her trying stuff on. Of her trying shit on.

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Speaker 2: And a fucking MAC lipstick is not worth it. So

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Speaker 2: she would get that out of you when you were

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Speaker 2: like more of a teen? A teen.

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Speaker 3: I think the last time it happened was when I

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Speaker 3: was 16 and had a fucking nervous breakdown on the

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Speaker 3: floor of the fucking.

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Speaker 3: Changing room of like the beige changing room at like

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Speaker 3: fucking bloomy bloomies what was it called blooming yeah blooming

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Speaker 3: dales blooming dales yeah can't oh god i'm sweating i'm

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Speaker 3: now sweating.

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Speaker 2: What's funny is my with my mom it was the

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Speaker 2: inverse or she would be like you need a new

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Speaker 2: blank for school or whatever so we go to close

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Speaker 2: time which was actually down the strip mall where my

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Speaker 2: mom worked close time no really she worked at the.

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Speaker 3: She, after a meeting, jokingly like did the kick her

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Speaker 3: leg up close time thing, but she was wearing a

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Speaker 3: tight skirt and fucking flew out her legs from underneath

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Speaker 3: her and landed on her fucking ass in a corporate office.

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Speaker 2: Did people go crazy laughing? I don't know. I can't

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Speaker 2: see Janet handling that well. I love her, but she's

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Speaker 2: a very formal lady. She's like, she's very like always

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Speaker 2: blown out. She's good with like a.

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Speaker 3: You know like a i love lucy style guffaw gat

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Speaker 3: like i hope so what's it called uh you know

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Speaker 3: a gaff a gaff a uh stunt stunt that's all

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Speaker 3: that's it oh okay i have a corrections corner hold.

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Speaker 6: On i'm telling my close i'm sorry god i forgot

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Speaker 6: i'm sorry go now i can't remember what it was

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Speaker 6: It was just that my mom would always be like,

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Speaker 6: you can get a new thing.

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Speaker 2: And that we would be in close time for like

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Speaker 2: 17 minutes because I had to look at every item

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Speaker 2: on every rack because things didn't always look good on me.

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Speaker 2: I had wide hips. I had a big butt, big boobs.

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Speaker 3: The fucking Irish back that I just learned about.

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Speaker 2: I had that fucking Irish back early where I was like,

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Speaker 2: what's happening?

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So I'd try things on. I'd be like, I want

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Speaker 2: to wear plaid this and checkered that because it was

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Speaker 2: the 80s. And everyone would be like, no, no, no, no.

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Speaker 2: Sales girls. Truly after like 15 minutes, my mom would

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Speaker 2: be like, Karen, I've been at work all day. We

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Speaker 2: have to go. And I'd be like, you wanted this.

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Speaker 2: I can't shop this way. I can't find my Pat

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Speaker 2: Benatar Love is a Battlefield outfit this way. And that's

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Speaker 2: why you hate shopping today. It is. I was truly scarred.

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Speaker 2: I was reverse scarred from you.

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Speaker 3: I'll go with you.

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Speaker 1: Shopping.

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Speaker 2: I'm really good at, this is going to look great

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Speaker 2: on you.

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Speaker 3: Like, no, it's not. And you try it on and

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Speaker 3: you're like, oh.

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Speaker 2: You're right. Okay. Can we make that plan in three months?

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Speaker 4: Sure.

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Speaker 2: Okay, great.

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Speaker 3: What's going to happen in three months?

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Speaker 2: Personal stuff.

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Speaker 3: You'll stop. You're stopping your compulsion of ripping clothes to

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Speaker 3: shreds in clothing stores.

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Speaker 2: And slapping whoever's in the dressing room with me just

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Speaker 2: to slap out.

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Speaker 3: She likes to bring a pair of scissors to clothing

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Speaker 3: stores and just absolutely shredding everything around her and she

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Speaker 3: doesn't want me to know about it.

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Speaker 2: If I try something on and it has like a

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Speaker 2: weird bump or the buttons don't close, I'll just cut

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Speaker 2: it up with large scissors. So it would be great

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Speaker 2: if you could comment. Come with me and help me.

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Speaker 3: I'd love to.

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Speaker 2: Okay, awesome. I'd love to. Corrections Corner. Corrections Corner, please.

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Speaker 2: Just real quick.

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Speaker 3: Remember how I kept yelling about, just call 911. Just

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Speaker 3: call 911.

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Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.

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Speaker 3: All of these, probably one person who works at 911.

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Speaker 2: You know, yes.

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Speaker 3: Emergency services was like, can you please tell everyone not

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Speaker 3: to call 9-1-1 for non-emergency things? And instead to find

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Speaker 3: their non-emergency police number.

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Speaker 2: Actually, that's not only is that a great point program.

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Speaker 3: I have.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Is that what you were going to say? Yes.

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Speaker 3: Go ahead. Sorry.

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Speaker 2: No, please. Your non-emergency emergency police station phone number into

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Speaker 2: your phone. That's right. Says police. So you can hit

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Speaker 2: it as fast as 9-1-1.

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Speaker 3: But you're not clogging up. Fuck.

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Speaker 2: Have you ever called 9-1-1?

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Speaker 3: No.

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Speaker 2: Wait, no. Yes, I did. When the gap that I

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Speaker 2: worked at in San Francisco and Market Street got robbed,

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Speaker 2: I had to call 911. I couldn't tell them what

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Speaker 2: streets we were on. I couldn't give them a specific address.

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Speaker 2: And basically what these guys did was just really fast

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Speaker 2: shoplifting and they pushed our security guard over as they left.

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Speaker 2: So it was.

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Speaker 3: So like grab and go kind of a thing.

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Speaker 2: It was a grab and go that it doesn't, I

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Speaker 2: don't think really count as a robbery in a major

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Speaker 2: metropolitan city. So they were kind of like, yeah, I

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Speaker 2: guess call us back if You know, like, call us back.

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Speaker 3: If you remember if they had a knife or something.

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Speaker 2: Exactly. It wasn't really a true emergency. Okay. All right.

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Speaker 2: What about you? I've called on, like, car accidents.

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Speaker 4: Oh.

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Speaker 2: And maybe a couple.

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Speaker 3: You know, a girl I lived with... This is not funny.

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Speaker 3: I don't know why I'm laughing. I lived with, like,

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Speaker 3: five girls one time when I was, like, 20. And

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Speaker 3: one of them.

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Speaker 2: Locked herself in the bathroom and proceeded to have a seizure. Oh.

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Speaker 3: Oh, no.

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Speaker 2: I'm like, yeah, it was not funny.

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Speaker 1: Why am I laughing?

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Speaker 3: It's pretty crazy.

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Speaker 2: Maybe it stresses you out to tell me, a person

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Speaker 2: who has seizures, about that story.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, or maybe I'm traumatized from it. But everything was fine.

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Speaker 2: But you didn't see it? She was fine. It was bad? Uh, no.

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Speaker 2: Was there a bloody mess? No, no, no, no, no.

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Speaker 2: She was fine. My thing is I'm always afraid.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: You can't, if you're, that's the thing that happens.

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Speaker 3: She like was embarrassed and wanted to hide it.

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Speaker 4: Exactly.

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Speaker 2: We could all tell. Yeah. And I would like kick

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Speaker 2: the door down. She was just like, can I please

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Speaker 2: privately slam my head against the tile? I don't want

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Speaker 2: to seem ugly in front of my friends. Um, That

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Speaker 2: also happens when people are choking. People always, if they

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Speaker 2: start choking, they get up from the table and go

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Speaker 2: to the bathroom. Shut up. Which you should not do.

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Speaker 2: If you're choking, stay around people so someone can give

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Speaker 2: you the Heimlich mirror.

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Speaker 3: I'm so scared of choking.

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Speaker 2: Have you ever eaten something alone and then you're like, the.

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Speaker 3: Way I just laughed when I was chewing, I should

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Speaker 3: have choked on that and died.

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Speaker 2: No? I don't think a lot when I'm eating alone.

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Speaker 2: It's a blur. There's a lot of noises. Yes. and

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Speaker 2: like crying. Speaking of being alone, this is my other

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Speaker 2: thing I wanted to tell you.

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Speaker 4: Okay.

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Speaker 2: Uh, okay.

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Speaker 3: Here's, this is what's wrong with me. And I feel

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Speaker 3: like this is a safe space. Everyone listening has been there.

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Speaker 3: I was, I'm listening again to the audio book of

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Speaker 3: I'll be gone in the dark by Michelle McNamara. Cause

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Speaker 3: I can't fucking get enough of it. Yep. And I'm

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Speaker 3: listening to it as I fall asleep at night. I

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Speaker 3: know as I don't fall asleep at night, I should say.

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Speaker 3: So like last week, I'm trying to fall asleep listening

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Speaker 3: to it, which is like the woman's voice you read,

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Speaker 3: it's like really kind of, it's really soothing and monotone.

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Speaker 3: But the writing is so deep and you're like in

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Speaker 3: it and I can imagine everything. And so I'm like

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Speaker 3: imagining someone breaking in and how they would do it,

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Speaker 3: which is really, I don't want to challenge anyone, but

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Speaker 3: it's kind of fucking hard in this apartment, right?

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And I'm laying next to Vince who's sleeping.

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Speaker 3: And then I remember that he's leaving the next day

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Speaker 3: for four fucking nights and I'm going to be alone

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Speaker 3: doing this. So the next day I texted my dad

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Speaker 3: and I, a 37 year old woman, had my daddy

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Speaker 3: fucking stay at my house while my husband was out

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Speaker 3: of town.

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Speaker 2: Did you really? Yes. That's incredible. Well, that's a testament

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Speaker 2: to how amazing that book is written. But you know

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Speaker 2: what's really funny, and you'll feel less alone? My sister's

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Speaker 2: best friend, Adrienne, who's like my sister, who has been

249
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Speaker 2: a listener since episode one, and then I found out

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Speaker 2: she was a murderino. Like, we both were like, wait, what?

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Speaker 2: And we've known each other for 20, well, now 40 years.

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Speaker 2: Good God. But she.

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Speaker 2: Called me specifically to say I'm halfway through. I'll be

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Speaker 2: gone in the dark. And I am freaking out. She goes, Karen,

255
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Speaker 2: I have read every true crime book there is. She goes,

256
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Speaker 2: I've never given a single shit. I've plowed through all

257
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Speaker 2: of Ann Rule. I've done it all. She goes, I

258
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Speaker 2: don't understand what's happening. I'm laying awake at night. I

259
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Speaker 2: am scared shitless. I can't stop thinking about how fucked

260
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Speaker 2: up this guy was. She's like, do you think he's

261
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Speaker 2: still alive? Like we were having this conversation where I've never,

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Speaker 2: she's the coolest, most.

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Speaker 3: Well, she's in fucking, she's in Northern California too. That's right.

264
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Speaker 2: That would scare the shit out of me. But he's

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Speaker 2: down here if he's alive.

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Speaker 3: You think so?

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Speaker 2: Yes. Yes, for sure. Why? Because that's the last place

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Speaker 2: he kills.

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Speaker 3: I keep going through my head being like, go through

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Speaker 3: your head of jobs and what would he be that

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Speaker 3: would make sense of why he was in those specific cities.

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Speaker 3: So I keep going through jobs and I keep going

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Speaker 3: through like, maybe he was a teacher.

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Speaker 2: Maybe he was a, you know, a teaching assistant.

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Speaker 3: Maybe he was a pilot because there was an Air

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Speaker 3: Force base in Irvine when I was a kid. Like,

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Speaker 3: which comes up in the book.

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Speaker 2: And cause there was also one right where like, I

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Speaker 2: think in Carmichael, right?

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Speaker 3: Or Lolita too. There was like, uh, for read the book.

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Speaker 3: My God, listen to it.

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Speaker 2: I think, I feel like everybody has.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: We're all, we're all done. You're a whole, Stephen just

285
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Speaker 2: turned his notebook over and I thought he was holding

286
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Speaker 2: up like a cute card. That's fine.

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Speaker 3: We'll be gone in the dark. He's like, you got

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Speaker 3: the fucking name wrong.

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Speaker 2: You assholes. You are so stupid. Uh, yeah. What if

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Speaker 2: it just said they caught him? They caught him guys.

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Speaker 2: It's happening right now. Georgia. It was your dad.

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Speaker 3: Georgia.

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Speaker 2: You invited him into your house. No, but it is

294
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Speaker 2: such a good book. It's like, and what I said

295
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Speaker 2: to Adrienne is because she is so good at boiling

296
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Speaker 2: it down. There's no extra writing, but also it's not sparse.

297
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Speaker 2: It's just the most concentrated, boiled down. Here's how it happened.

298
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Speaker 2: Here's this experience for people. And it's all that stuff.

299
00:13:03,730 --> 00:13:06,890
Speaker 2: Which I feel like part of this true crime wave

300
00:13:06,929 --> 00:13:10,360
Speaker 2: that's just happening to everybody right now is because this

301
00:13:10,420 --> 00:13:15,220
Speaker 2: is my personal theory, because it's all about. The monsters

302
00:13:15,300 --> 00:13:18,940
Speaker 2: hiding in plain view as like the wolves in sheep's clothing.

303
00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:21,840
Speaker 2: I'm obsessed with that thing where we are now starting

304
00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:26,780
Speaker 2: to see our government crack apart. Like people who claim

305
00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:28,340
Speaker 2: to be on one side claim to be on the other.

306
00:13:28,460 --> 00:13:32,590
Speaker 2: But in truth, they're bought by somebody. You don't even understand.

307
00:13:32,610 --> 00:13:37,349
Speaker 2: They have no fucking. No moral compass. None. Just sociopaths.

308
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Speaker 2: at large that where everyone's going, oh no, this, it

309
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Speaker 2: can't be this way. Like, and that's not even, that

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Speaker 2: is not partisan. That's like, I feel like there's a

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Speaker 2: different level of something happening where people are starting to

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Speaker 2: culturally publicly acknowledge that we have people, men and women

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Speaker 2: in our society that are true monsters that do not

314
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Speaker 2: seem like anything at all. They speak in low tones.

315
00:14:02,230 --> 00:14:05,170
Speaker 2: They look very pretty or attractive. They say the right things. Yep.

316
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Speaker 2: They make you feel great. Nothing about it. It's that

317
00:14:08,010 --> 00:14:11,010
Speaker 2: Ann Rule, Ted Buddy thing. Totally. You cannot see them coming.

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Speaker 2: And it's the scariest fucking thing in the world.

319
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Speaker 3: Well, it's the same thing with Ann Rule that Michelle

320
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Speaker 3: McNamara has where it's like, well, she's one of us.

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Speaker 3: Like I just like, I want to, when I finish

322
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Speaker 3: listening to it, I want to go have coffee with

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Speaker 3: her and talk about it. She's just so, she's herself

324
00:14:28,470 --> 00:14:30,430
Speaker 3: is so, and you can tell how like the book,

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Speaker 3: she describes how obsessed she is. And I totally fucking

326
00:14:34,110 --> 00:14:35,440
Speaker 3: get it. We totally get it.

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Speaker 2: Remember in the book when she talks about getting that big,

328
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Speaker 2: crazy amount of files that they kind of like snuck

329
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Speaker 2: out of the building? Yeah. One of my last conversations

330
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Speaker 2: with her, she told me about getting the mother load.

331
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Speaker 2: It was at a patent show I was on. She

332
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Speaker 2: was in the dressing room and she was like, we

333
00:14:52,220 --> 00:14:54,580
Speaker 2: just got this thing. And like, I just remember it

334
00:14:55,140 --> 00:14:57,380
Speaker 2: was a very brief conversation. And also I want to

335
00:14:57,420 --> 00:14:59,580
Speaker 2: say this. It's not like she and I were best friends.

336
00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:02,070
Speaker 2: I don't want to try to portray that as we

337
00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:05,050
Speaker 2: had some amazing relationship. I just knew her. We had

338
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Speaker 2: this conversation. I just remember her like total excitement. But

339
00:15:08,710 --> 00:15:11,790
Speaker 2: also it was this thing of like, like now we have...

340
00:15:12,550 --> 00:15:15,880
Speaker 2: We have 30 times more information. Yeah. And now we're

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00:15:15,890 --> 00:15:18,720
Speaker 2: really going to start to get into something. It's so

342
00:15:18,820 --> 00:15:23,400
Speaker 2: fucking nutso. Okay. Anyway. What else do you have? Oh,

343
00:15:23,740 --> 00:15:28,650
Speaker 2: this is very important. We found this out from people

344
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Speaker 2: on Twitter. No. Stephen and I have started a band.

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Speaker 3: Small foreign fashion.

346
00:15:35,670 --> 00:15:39,010
Speaker 2: Yes. Um, no, this was got, this got sent to

347
00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:43,520
Speaker 2: us as a story. Uh, I believe today on Twitter. Um,

348
00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:46,300
Speaker 2: and it's so amazing. So of course, uh, on the

349
00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:48,420
Speaker 2: mini soads, we've read a bunch of stories about people

350
00:15:48,470 --> 00:15:51,630
Speaker 2: finding things in walls. That's been a whole conversation. Um, um,

351
00:15:51,670 --> 00:15:54,090
Speaker 2: that we've been having. Then there was that story that

352
00:15:54,130 --> 00:15:56,870
Speaker 2: came through. That's incredibly tragic of a woman who fell

353
00:15:57,070 --> 00:16:00,250
Speaker 2: into her wall and then her body was discovered years later.

354
00:16:00,290 --> 00:16:02,530
Speaker 2: That baby, that story came through. A lot of people

355
00:16:02,570 --> 00:16:04,010
Speaker 2: sent it to us. We didn't really talk about it

356
00:16:04,050 --> 00:16:08,550
Speaker 2: cause it's just pure tragedy and it's such a suffocating,

357
00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:14,280
Speaker 2: terrible feeling literally. Um, but then this one came through today. Okay. Uh,

358
00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:18,680
Speaker 2: the headline of this story. Oh no. mystery monkey mummy

359
00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:22,920
Speaker 2: surfaces in Dayton's demolition. No, no one wrote that fucking,

360
00:16:23,300 --> 00:16:25,160
Speaker 2: what is it called? Alliteration?

361
00:16:25,380 --> 00:16:26,970
Speaker 3: No, yeah, but also what do they call them?

362
00:16:27,070 --> 00:16:31,430
Speaker 2: The headline? Yeah. That's not what I meant, but then

363
00:16:31,450 --> 00:16:32,989
Speaker 2: you said, I'm like, yeah, that's what it's called. Okay,

364
00:16:33,010 --> 00:16:35,770
Speaker 2: let me read this to you. So this happened in Minnesota.

365
00:16:35,790 --> 00:16:39,650
Speaker 2: Minnesotans long knew Dayton's as a store with just about everything,

366
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Speaker 2: and it's proving even more so.

367
00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:42,660
Speaker 1: Oh, no.

368
00:16:43,020 --> 00:16:45,640
Speaker 2: Tim Nelson wrote this, by the way. So, Tim, you're

369
00:16:45,660 --> 00:16:47,700
Speaker 2: just doing a great job. We're only two sentences in.

370
00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:51,760
Speaker 2: It's proving even more so as crews demolished the interior

371
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Speaker 2: of the iconic downtown Minneapolis store for redevelopment. The latest,

372
00:16:55,860 --> 00:16:59,160
Speaker 2: a dead monkey. What? A quote. We don't know a

373
00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:02,590
Speaker 2: lot about this monkey, but I can say that there

374
00:17:02,630 --> 00:17:06,919
Speaker 2: was a monkey found find a lot of pieces of

375
00:17:06,980 --> 00:17:09,570
Speaker 2: history like this in the Dayton's project as we redevelop

376
00:17:09,590 --> 00:17:14,129
Speaker 2: the building. What's historical about a monkey? Unfortunately, this was

377
00:17:14,170 --> 00:17:17,230
Speaker 2: one of the recent discoveries. Cruz had previously discovered a

378
00:17:17,270 --> 00:17:19,830
Speaker 2: wallet long ago stolen from an employee in 1969 and

379
00:17:19,869 --> 00:17:24,240
Speaker 2: found during demolition of a wall. Oh, that's fun. A

380
00:17:24,300 --> 00:17:26,699
Speaker 2: demolition worker submitted a photo of the dead monkey to

381
00:17:26,740 --> 00:17:29,900
Speaker 2: the Facebook group Old Minneapolis, so go join that.

382
00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:32,859
Speaker 3: So a bunch of old women, old ladies who were like, oh,

383
00:17:32,900 --> 00:17:34,110
Speaker 3: it's an old Minneapolis.

384
00:17:34,140 --> 00:17:34,310
Speaker 4: Haha!

385
00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:38,370
Speaker 2: They're trying to enter stuff on Facebook like, how does

386
00:17:38,490 --> 00:17:43,629
Speaker 2: this work? That was a robot grandma. I don't know

387
00:17:43,650 --> 00:17:45,810
Speaker 2: why I said it like that. And longtime customers and

388
00:17:45,850 --> 00:17:48,510
Speaker 2: employees respond with tales of pet shop on the store's

389
00:17:48,730 --> 00:17:51,740
Speaker 2: eighth floor and a monkey that went missing in the 60s.

390
00:17:51,810 --> 00:17:55,260
Speaker 3: Can you imagine how depressing a 1960s fucking pet shop

391
00:17:55,300 --> 00:17:57,520
Speaker 3: on the eighth floor of a department store was?

392
00:17:58,580 --> 00:18:02,020
Speaker 2: Imagine you're in a department store, like Mervin style, but

393
00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:03,560
Speaker 2: it's the 60s and they're like, oh, you can't. can

394
00:18:03,580 --> 00:18:05,300
Speaker 2: buy a monkey there, too. Do you need a bra?

395
00:18:05,340 --> 00:18:06,600
Speaker 2: Do you need some plates? No, it's happy.

396
00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:08,320
Speaker 3: It loves department stores.

397
00:18:08,540 --> 00:18:11,540
Speaker 2: It loves a cage. It just loves two feet of room.

398
00:18:13,500 --> 00:18:15,600
Speaker 2: We really don't know the story or the origin behind

399
00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:18,500
Speaker 2: this find. There are a lot of ideas and theories

400
00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:20,590
Speaker 2: right now, but none that we can say we understand

401
00:18:20,619 --> 00:18:21,109
Speaker 2: to be true.

402
00:18:21,180 --> 00:18:22,070
Speaker 3: I bet they're funny.

403
00:18:23,150 --> 00:18:27,110
Speaker 2: Oh, wait. Interestingly, Robbinsdale Mayor Reagan Murphy says he may

404
00:18:27,150 --> 00:18:30,710
Speaker 2: know the riddle of the monkey. My dad once stole

405
00:18:30,770 --> 00:18:33,220
Speaker 2: a monkey from a Dayton's display back in the 60s.

406
00:18:33,810 --> 00:18:34,570
Speaker 1: What?

407
00:18:35,330 --> 00:18:37,950
Speaker 2: They decided to bring it back after it shat all

408
00:18:38,010 --> 00:18:40,950
Speaker 2: over my dad's friend's bedroom while they were at school.

409
00:18:41,130 --> 00:18:43,719
Speaker 2: It says the word shat in this newspaper article. Explain

410
00:18:43,740 --> 00:18:45,760
Speaker 2: my face right now. Georgia's baffled.

411
00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:47,740
Speaker 3: Horrified confusion, I would call it.

412
00:18:47,740 --> 00:18:49,979
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. You just don't know what's going on.

413
00:18:51,619 --> 00:18:54,720
Speaker 2: They returned it by letting it loose in the store.

414
00:18:55,100 --> 00:18:58,220
Speaker 2: That is probably, this is probably that monkey.

415
00:18:58,240 --> 00:18:59,750
Speaker 3: He just outed his dad so hard.

416
00:18:59,790 --> 00:19:03,220
Speaker 2: It's hilarious. It's hilarious. And now they're having a huge

417
00:19:03,420 --> 00:19:07,959
Speaker 2: influx of leasing inquiries. Congratulations, everybody, at the Dayton's renovation.

418
00:19:07,980 --> 00:19:11,050
Speaker 2: That's the best fucking story of all time. I am

419
00:19:11,210 --> 00:19:14,929
Speaker 2: baffled and I love it. I wonder if someone if

420
00:19:14,970 --> 00:19:16,950
Speaker 2: it's shadow over that room, they released in the store.

421
00:19:17,270 --> 00:19:19,469
Speaker 2: The manager gets there the next morning. It's shadow over

422
00:19:19,490 --> 00:19:21,909
Speaker 2: the store. He takes the monkey, strangles it with his

423
00:19:21,950 --> 00:19:22,949
Speaker 2: own hands, sticks.

424
00:19:24,910 --> 00:19:26,830
Speaker 3: Man overpower a monkey?

425
00:19:27,290 --> 00:19:31,230
Speaker 2: No. Scratch his fucking eyes out. Monkeys are 10 times

426
00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:33,240
Speaker 2: more powerful than people. Second question.

427
00:19:34,580 --> 00:19:36,180
Speaker 1: Why is he in a display?

428
00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:38,660
Speaker 3: Don't put live animals in a display and a fucking

429
00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:40,360
Speaker 3: pet store on the sixth floor, everyone.

430
00:19:40,380 --> 00:19:43,410
Speaker 2: Yeah, but remember when like Melanie Griffith's mother, Tippi Hedren,

431
00:19:43,490 --> 00:19:45,990
Speaker 2: had her own tiger? There was some weird shit going

432
00:19:46,130 --> 00:19:48,310
Speaker 2: on in like the 60s and 70s with people and

433
00:19:48,430 --> 00:19:53,810
Speaker 2: like exotic pets that could actually be controlled. For sure. Goodbye, everybody.

434
00:19:53,830 --> 00:19:54,929
Speaker 3: Let's go think about it.

435
00:19:54,970 --> 00:19:56,570
Speaker 2: We're going to go look it up. See you later.

436
00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:00,610
Speaker 3: Don't laugh into your coffee mug. Don't laugh into your

437
00:20:00,619 --> 00:20:03,430
Speaker 3: KCRW coffee mug.

438
00:20:04,550 --> 00:20:06,870
Speaker 2: Now it's a horse. Click clock, click clock. Karen turned

439
00:20:06,910 --> 00:20:08,870
Speaker 2: into a demon horse. Click clock, click clock.

440
00:20:09,430 --> 00:20:13,409
Speaker 3: Listen, I look and listen. I put some extra oxygen

441
00:20:13,430 --> 00:20:16,240
Speaker 3: in the air for us. So we get a little wacky.

442
00:20:17,260 --> 00:20:18,620
Speaker 2: Hi, everybody.

443
00:20:22,820 --> 00:20:24,300
Speaker 1: OK, we are back.

444
00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:26,760
Speaker 2: And there's updates. I know.

445
00:20:26,780 --> 00:20:30,930
Speaker 1: It is so bananas that 12 days after this episode aired,

446
00:20:31,690 --> 00:20:37,730
Speaker 1: authorities arrested Joseph James D'Angelo Jr. on April 24th, 2018,

447
00:20:37,730 --> 00:20:41,280
Speaker 1: and were able to identify him as the Golden State Killer, which.

448
00:20:42,340 --> 00:20:43,659
Speaker 2: The ultimate update, actually.

449
00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:44,420
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah.

450
00:20:44,500 --> 00:20:46,880
Speaker 2: That's the one everyone's always looking for. Totally.

451
00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:49,460
Speaker 1: I mean, I can't believe it. It's like, in this episode,

452
00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:51,900
Speaker 1: we're saying, like, what was his job? What did he do?

453
00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:53,980
Speaker 1: It turns out he was a cop. Not for long,

454
00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:57,000
Speaker 1: but he fucking was. And that is like, that was,

455
00:20:57,359 --> 00:21:00,899
Speaker 1: I remember just wanting all the information when this came out. Yes.

456
00:21:01,100 --> 00:21:01,560
Speaker 1: Oh my God.

457
00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:03,610
Speaker 2: It was like all the theories that we had heard

458
00:21:03,660 --> 00:21:08,110
Speaker 2: over the years, all those discussions. What a fascinating kind

459
00:21:08,150 --> 00:21:10,149
Speaker 2: of like thing to let, it really actually felt to

460
00:21:10,210 --> 00:21:12,950
Speaker 2: me like a timeline shift. Yeah. There were so many

461
00:21:13,030 --> 00:21:18,270
Speaker 2: big things that happened around that time, obviously, but huge things,

462
00:21:18,310 --> 00:21:21,469
Speaker 2: not just like, oh, one big thing or, one big change,

463
00:21:21,530 --> 00:21:23,930
Speaker 2: but it just felt like it just kept coming. Yeah.

464
00:21:23,970 --> 00:21:27,370
Speaker 1: And I remember like, what, like just, it opened this

465
00:21:27,430 --> 00:21:31,630
Speaker 1: door to solving these cases and it has a lot

466
00:21:31,670 --> 00:21:33,260
Speaker 1: of them. I wish there were more, but, and I

467
00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:36,220
Speaker 1: think there will be, but these like suddenly cold cases

468
00:21:36,300 --> 00:21:40,899
Speaker 1: had a way of being solved without ever needing a suspect,

469
00:21:41,500 --> 00:21:43,700
Speaker 1: which I think, well, I mean, you need a suspect

470
00:21:44,020 --> 00:21:47,320
Speaker 1: to get their DNA and compare, but you can get

471
00:21:47,380 --> 00:21:51,649
Speaker 1: that suspect by whittling down their family tree. I mean,

472
00:21:51,730 --> 00:21:55,090
Speaker 1: it's like suddenly evening the playing field with these monsters.

473
00:21:55,310 --> 00:22:00,330
Speaker 2: Yeah. And there's now people like Michelle McNamara, who they

474
00:22:00,369 --> 00:22:04,700
Speaker 2: take it upon themselves to apply their expertise and what

475
00:22:04,740 --> 00:22:07,800
Speaker 2: they do best to help move these cold cases along

476
00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:12,280
Speaker 2: that would otherwise just sit there. Like this was a predator,

477
00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:16,280
Speaker 2: a serial rapist, a serial killer. So many, I mean,

478
00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:19,900
Speaker 2: just like this man, it was just as, just destruction.

479
00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:22,200
Speaker 2: And it was like, oh, well, it's a cold case.

480
00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:24,739
Speaker 2: We'll never know. Maybe he's dead. That was like the

481
00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:27,370
Speaker 2: main theory that people would say. He's probably dead now.

482
00:22:27,830 --> 00:22:30,570
Speaker 2: And instead, he's just hanging out in Citrus Heights or

483
00:22:30,590 --> 00:22:33,050
Speaker 2: wherever his house was, like living life.

484
00:22:33,410 --> 00:22:36,629
Speaker 1: So bonkers. It's so bonkers. And yeah, if you haven't

485
00:22:36,690 --> 00:22:39,300
Speaker 1: read I'll Be Gone in the Dark, I mean, you

486
00:22:39,340 --> 00:22:42,480
Speaker 1: need to listen to the audiobook, read the book. It

487
00:22:42,580 --> 00:22:45,340
Speaker 1: is terrifying, but the fact that he was caught makes

488
00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:48,290
Speaker 1: it A little less so. I remember having my dad

489
00:22:48,490 --> 00:22:50,690
Speaker 1: spend the night when Vince was out of town while

490
00:22:50,730 --> 00:22:52,650
Speaker 1: I was listening to this book. There was a window

491
00:22:52,810 --> 00:22:54,770
Speaker 1: up in the loft, that loft window.

492
00:22:54,790 --> 00:22:55,210
Speaker 2: Yeah.

493
00:22:55,290 --> 00:22:57,910
Speaker 1: That I was like, sure, he was going to fucking

494
00:22:58,530 --> 00:23:00,950
Speaker 1: come through and kill me. Like, I was so scared.

495
00:23:00,970 --> 00:23:01,050
Speaker 2: Yeah.

496
00:23:01,850 --> 00:23:03,810
Speaker 1: Because a book is so incredible.

497
00:23:04,010 --> 00:23:07,370
Speaker 2: I mean, and that's, this is a predator who, like,

498
00:23:08,050 --> 00:23:12,169
Speaker 2: made his specialty this exact kind of break-in idea. Like,

499
00:23:12,340 --> 00:23:13,600
Speaker 2: everyone's worst nightmare.

500
00:23:13,619 --> 00:23:13,699
Speaker 4: Yeah.

501
00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:15,639
Speaker 2: That's the thing you lay in bed at night and

502
00:23:15,660 --> 00:23:18,320
Speaker 2: just go, God, I have... And this guy played on

503
00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:22,300
Speaker 2: all those fears times a million. I remember Patton talking

504
00:23:22,340 --> 00:23:25,100
Speaker 2: to me about when he learned about what they would

505
00:23:25,180 --> 00:23:28,070
Speaker 2: find the rope in the couch cushions and that idea

506
00:23:28,109 --> 00:23:30,960
Speaker 2: that he'd already been there. He was planning this for days.

507
00:23:33,250 --> 00:23:34,149
Speaker 2: It's just so beyond.

508
00:23:34,450 --> 00:23:38,030
Speaker 1: That and people who he never intruded into their homes

509
00:23:38,230 --> 00:23:40,880
Speaker 1: found that stuff too, because He was planning it just

510
00:23:40,980 --> 00:23:43,520
Speaker 1: like knowing he'd get a chance at one of the houses.

511
00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:43,920
Speaker 2: Yeah.

512
00:23:44,380 --> 00:23:46,359
Speaker 1: So it wasn't just the victims that found that. And

513
00:23:46,380 --> 00:23:48,639
Speaker 1: then that one is crazy. Also the fact that the

514
00:23:48,660 --> 00:23:51,210
Speaker 1: thing that he would do where the victim would think

515
00:23:51,350 --> 00:23:55,449
Speaker 1: he left because he'd be quiet for an hour and

516
00:23:55,490 --> 00:23:58,690
Speaker 1: then they'd start to stir and he'd like clear his throat.

517
00:23:59,430 --> 00:24:06,000
Speaker 1: Like pure fucking like levels of evil. I just can't

518
00:24:06,020 --> 00:24:06,859
Speaker 1: wrap my brain around.

519
00:24:06,980 --> 00:24:11,060
Speaker 2: It's like he figured out how to scare people the most,

520
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:16,239
Speaker 2: how to scare women the most. And just what an

521
00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:19,550
Speaker 2: insane kind of before and after for that case and

522
00:24:19,590 --> 00:24:22,090
Speaker 2: the way that case turned out. And the fact that

523
00:24:22,130 --> 00:24:26,250
Speaker 2: we had anything, like had anything to do with it

524
00:24:26,330 --> 00:24:29,010
Speaker 2: at all in the conversation is so weird to me

525
00:24:29,530 --> 00:24:33,040
Speaker 2: because it's so old. We watched it on cold case files.

526
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:36,340
Speaker 2: We watched it on forensic files. Like we all knew

527
00:24:36,380 --> 00:24:39,630
Speaker 2: this case in all different parts and pieces. Yeah. Over

528
00:24:39,670 --> 00:24:41,330
Speaker 2: the years, since the 90s. Totally.

529
00:24:41,369 --> 00:24:43,230
Speaker 1: About the piece of like, and I think you and

530
00:24:43,250 --> 00:24:45,770
Speaker 1: I probably brought it up on our first, like during

531
00:24:45,810 --> 00:24:47,930
Speaker 1: our first true crime meeting of the guy who would

532
00:24:47,990 --> 00:24:52,179
Speaker 1: put dishes on the back of the spouse of the man.

533
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:55,920
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, the fact that we started this podcast

534
00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:58,810
Speaker 1: right when this was all happening and coming to an,

535
00:24:58,980 --> 00:25:04,120
Speaker 1: you know, a crescendo is, is. so fortuitous and so interesting.

536
00:25:04,210 --> 00:25:06,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just, it's such a time and place. It's

537
00:25:06,260 --> 00:25:08,980
Speaker 2: almost like smelling a perfume, but it's this story. Yeah.

538
00:25:10,220 --> 00:25:12,179
Speaker 2: So you're just like, oh my God, yes, I remember

539
00:25:12,900 --> 00:25:15,159
Speaker 2: being super stressed and feeling like, oh my God, we

540
00:25:15,180 --> 00:25:18,590
Speaker 2: have to answer this. We somehow have to like be

541
00:25:18,619 --> 00:25:22,990
Speaker 2: in this conversation because for me personally, the East Area

542
00:25:23,050 --> 00:25:27,390
Speaker 2: Rapist was such a thing in Sacramento. Right. And that

543
00:25:27,550 --> 00:25:33,169
Speaker 2: then becoming The Golden State Kill. Like that, two separate people,

544
00:25:33,190 --> 00:25:36,070
Speaker 2: the cases that were done in San Luis Obispo and

545
00:25:36,630 --> 00:25:40,210
Speaker 2: Santa Barbara and further. It's just so weird. It's like,

546
00:25:40,690 --> 00:25:42,550
Speaker 2: if you wrote it like that as a movie, people

547
00:25:42,570 --> 00:25:46,740
Speaker 2: would say it's not realistic that that Southern California serial

548
00:25:46,780 --> 00:25:49,160
Speaker 2: killer is also the East Area Rapist. And it's like, nope,

549
00:25:49,700 --> 00:25:49,950
Speaker 2: he is.

550
00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:54,060
Speaker 1: Well, that and the fact that you knew Michelle McNamara,

551
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:55,859
Speaker 1: and I was such a big fan of hers already

552
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:57,140
Speaker 1: in her blog.

553
00:25:57,160 --> 00:25:57,850
Speaker 2: Yes, that blog.

554
00:25:59,710 --> 00:26:00,070
Speaker 3: I know.

555
00:26:00,210 --> 00:26:01,709
Speaker 1: Just that weird little... That.

556
00:26:01,450 --> 00:26:04,639
Speaker 2: Blog was the only hit I would get if I

557
00:26:04,700 --> 00:26:09,659
Speaker 2: wasn't watching cold case files or something. And it was

558
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:15,959
Speaker 2: so innovative because she was basically applying her brain, but

559
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:20,120
Speaker 2: also her passion for this, what is going on here?

560
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:22,820
Speaker 2: Why aren't people talking about it? Or whatever she would do,

561
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:25,790
Speaker 2: all those cold cases and all those Or just kind

562
00:26:25,810 --> 00:26:29,030
Speaker 2: of those hanging unsolved ones that bothered her. Yeah. It

563
00:26:29,070 --> 00:26:30,830
Speaker 2: was such good work. Totally.

564
00:26:31,609 --> 00:26:34,310
Speaker 1: Should we just really quickly give an update on the

565
00:26:34,369 --> 00:26:38,820
Speaker 1: very much less serious mummified monkey story?

566
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:43,000
Speaker 2: We got mummified monkey and, really quick, I have a

567
00:26:43,020 --> 00:26:45,960
Speaker 2: correction corner. Oh, okay. It's so old, such an old

568
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:48,860
Speaker 2: concept that we have to bring back because I said

569
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:51,450
Speaker 2: Melanie Griffin's mother had a tiger.

570
00:26:51,470 --> 00:26:51,550
Speaker 4: Yeah.

571
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:55,300
Speaker 2: And I was incorrect. She had a lion in the house.

572
00:26:55,380 --> 00:26:56,160
Speaker 1: How would you know, though?

573
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,159
Speaker 2: She had a lion. But also, it's different in a

574
00:26:59,180 --> 00:27:01,800
Speaker 2: way of, like, the MGM Grand thing, where it's, like, it's,

575
00:27:01,820 --> 00:27:05,050
Speaker 2: to me, almost crazier, scarier, because it's more cartoonish.

576
00:27:06,180 --> 00:27:09,590
Speaker 1: That's, like, there's photos. Go look at the photos online,

577
00:27:09,609 --> 00:27:13,109
Speaker 1: you guys, of, like, this cute little child, Melanie Griffith, like,

578
00:27:13,690 --> 00:27:18,070
Speaker 1: diving into a fucking pool with a full-grown lion. A lion.

579
00:27:18,090 --> 00:27:18,209
Speaker 4: Yeah.

580
00:27:20,790 --> 00:27:23,350
Speaker 2: Just like Malibu in the 70s. It was a crazy place.

581
00:27:23,430 --> 00:27:23,650
Speaker 2: I know.

582
00:27:23,670 --> 00:27:26,930
Speaker 1: Like, I think of Moe. If Moe were that size,

583
00:27:26,950 --> 00:27:30,150
Speaker 1: I would be gone. Like, even just his playfulness. He'll, like,

584
00:27:30,190 --> 00:27:32,790
Speaker 1: hit me in the face in the morning. Yes. I'd

585
00:27:32,970 --> 00:27:35,090
Speaker 1: bleed out if he were that size.

586
00:27:35,210 --> 00:27:38,430
Speaker 2: It was a cat scratch fever epidemic that.

587
00:27:38,350 --> 00:27:39,050
Speaker 1: Would break out.

588
00:27:40,230 --> 00:27:43,250
Speaker 2: Ridiculous. He'd be so cute. There's no... Reason in the

589
00:27:43,290 --> 00:27:45,270
Speaker 2: world to be like, I think I should live with

590
00:27:45,310 --> 00:27:46,709
Speaker 2: a lion. That's insane.

591
00:27:46,730 --> 00:27:49,169
Speaker 1: I think any wild animal, like, you know what I mean?

592
00:27:49,190 --> 00:27:51,370
Speaker 1: Like any of those wild animals when people are like

593
00:27:51,430 --> 00:27:54,669
Speaker 1: gung ho and like I collect whatever it is and

594
00:27:54,710 --> 00:27:59,640
Speaker 1: it's like an illegally obtained like animal that needs like.

595
00:28:00,220 --> 00:28:05,750
Speaker 1: sources of heat and food and entertainment that you have

596
00:28:05,770 --> 00:28:07,090
Speaker 1: to buy on the dark web.

597
00:28:07,190 --> 00:28:09,810
Speaker 2: And other animals to feed them that you have to

598
00:28:09,830 --> 00:28:10,620
Speaker 2: buy on the dark web.

599
00:28:10,630 --> 00:28:13,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm trying not to piss off snake and reptile

600
00:28:13,100 --> 00:28:15,800
Speaker 1: people because I do think that makes sense. But when

601
00:28:15,820 --> 00:28:19,550
Speaker 1: you're getting into a fucking crocodile over here.

602
00:28:19,830 --> 00:28:20,109
Speaker 3: Okay.

603
00:28:20,140 --> 00:28:23,050
Speaker 2: So, but back to what you're trying to say about

604
00:28:23,670 --> 00:28:26,650
Speaker 2: the mummified monkey story, which I completely forgot about.

605
00:28:26,890 --> 00:28:31,230
Speaker 1: Same, same. There's still no concrete explanation for the mummified

606
00:28:31,290 --> 00:28:33,980
Speaker 1: monkey that was found. The best theory is that the

607
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:37,619
Speaker 1: animal was a squirrel monkey. So that's a lot smaller

608
00:28:37,660 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 1: than what I was picturing.

609
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:41,200
Speaker 2: I was picturing like a silverback gorilla. Totally.

610
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 1: Just in a wall. Got tigers and we've got gorillas.

611
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:45,680
Speaker 2: All the big ones.

612
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:48,460
Speaker 1: The best theory is that it was a squirrel monkey

613
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:51,100
Speaker 1: from Dayton's old pet shop or pet display in the

614
00:28:51,140 --> 00:28:53,830
Speaker 1: 1960s because that's what they did. Possibly the same monkey

615
00:28:53,970 --> 00:28:56,710
Speaker 1: that two boys once stole, brought home, and then released

616
00:28:56,770 --> 00:28:58,650
Speaker 1: back into the store.

617
00:28:58,670 --> 00:29:00,290
Speaker 2: They were like, sorry, we didn't mean it.

618
00:29:00,670 --> 00:29:01,330
Speaker 1: Oh, shit.

619
00:29:01,530 --> 00:29:03,890
Speaker 2: Too hard. Can you imagine? It's hard enough to have

620
00:29:03,910 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 2: dogs or cats. You have a fucking monkey in your house. No.

621
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:11,740
Speaker 2: It's like a person that just is slightly less reasonable

622
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:12,720
Speaker 2: than like a five-year-old.

623
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:15,820
Speaker 1: I have a problem too with like diapers on pets.

624
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 2: Yeah.

625
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:20,460
Speaker 1: Even though I know it's necessary for a lot of animals,

626
00:29:20,660 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 1: but like it just makes me sad.

627
00:29:22,700 --> 00:29:25,100
Speaker 2: I know. They don't belong there. They should be able

628
00:29:25,140 --> 00:29:27,790
Speaker 2: to free shit and piss wherever they want. That's right.

629
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,670
Speaker 1: And Cookie does. Okay.

630
00:29:31,030 --> 00:29:33,090
Speaker 2: We should get into these stories because both of these

631
00:29:33,130 --> 00:29:37,410
Speaker 2: stories from this episode are amazing. But this one, that's

632
00:29:37,430 --> 00:29:39,890
Speaker 2: the wrong word. I always use the same words over

633
00:29:39,910 --> 00:29:43,660
Speaker 2: and over when I describe these horrific, brutal cases that

634
00:29:43,700 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 2: are just, we've just described them all. This one, though,

635
00:29:46,860 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 2: a child killer, essentially.

636
00:29:50,020 --> 00:29:50,910
Speaker 1: Yeah, in the 1800s.

637
00:29:51,020 --> 00:29:53,510
Speaker 2: Let's get into George's story about Jesse Pomeroy.

638
00:30:03,050 --> 00:30:06,890
Speaker 3: Who goes first tonight, Stephen, on this lovely hot evening?

639
00:30:06,910 --> 00:30:09,270
Speaker 2: Steve. Shit, I don't know either, Stephen. I think I

640
00:30:09,310 --> 00:30:10,500
Speaker 2: went first last time, didn't I?

641
00:30:10,530 --> 00:30:11,270
Speaker 3: I want to go first.

642
00:30:11,330 --> 00:30:11,630
Speaker 6: Do it.

643
00:30:11,670 --> 00:30:14,190
Speaker 2: Can I? Yeah, of course. Just because, look.

644
00:30:15,570 --> 00:30:15,850
Speaker 4: Listen.

645
00:30:15,870 --> 00:30:17,690
Speaker 3: I had a can and a half of sparkling wine,

646
00:30:17,710 --> 00:30:19,280
Speaker 3: so I can tell a story still.

647
00:30:19,460 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 2: Yes.

648
00:30:20,820 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 3: All right.

649
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 2: Okay. A can and a half of sparkling wine.

650
00:30:27,010 --> 00:30:28,830
Speaker 3: Classy as fuck. As fuck.

651
00:30:28,870 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 2: That's whom I am. Congratulations. Congratulations to you because I

652
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 2: have to tell you something. Okay. You were right about something.

653
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:36,959
Speaker 3: You know what?

654
00:30:36,980 --> 00:30:38,460
Speaker 2: Can we just sit in that for one second? I know.

655
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 2: I knew you'd want to. It doesn't happen that often.

656
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,420
Speaker 2: Just hearing the words. Okay, thanks.

657
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:48,060
Speaker 3: Karen, you were 100% right. The Alienist is a good show.

658
00:30:49,180 --> 00:30:50,540
Speaker 2: Yes! You were right.

659
00:30:50,700 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 3: It's fucking great. I have two episodes left.

660
00:30:52,380 --> 00:30:55,540
Speaker 2: I can't wait. But I love it. That's what I

661
00:30:55,580 --> 00:30:58,240
Speaker 2: watched while Vince was out of town. So good, right?

662
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 2: So good. Because it's giving you enough of your true

663
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:03,620
Speaker 2: crime or your crime that wasn't true, I don't think.

664
00:31:03,780 --> 00:31:07,240
Speaker 2: Maybe based on true, but also there's like the visuals.

665
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 3: Of that show.

666
00:31:07,340 --> 00:31:07,830
Speaker 2: It's gorgeous.

667
00:31:07,940 --> 00:31:10,180
Speaker 3: And fucking fanning Dakota.

668
00:31:10,350 --> 00:31:13,250
Speaker 2: She's nailing it. Nailing it. Do you think she puts

669
00:31:13,290 --> 00:31:16,430
Speaker 2: drops in her eyes to make her pupils be cartoonishly

670
00:31:16,470 --> 00:31:18,670
Speaker 2: large like that? I wonder if it's the lighting guy.

671
00:31:19,510 --> 00:31:22,030
Speaker 3: Me lighting human it doesn't have to be a guy

672
00:31:22,330 --> 00:31:25,690
Speaker 3: that's right well it is based on true shit because

673
00:31:25,730 --> 00:31:27,240
Speaker 3: here's how i know they went and did something and

674
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:29,120
Speaker 3: i was like what is that thing they're talking about

675
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:32,260
Speaker 3: looked it up this is the story of the boston

676
00:31:32,300 --> 00:31:36,530
Speaker 3: boy fiend jesse pomeroy holy fuck yeah i'm going there

677
00:31:37,810 --> 00:31:40,450
Speaker 3: what's wrong i didn't do this guy i didn't did you.

678
00:31:41,540 --> 00:31:43,960
Speaker 5: I looked it up and you did the smiley face.

679
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 2: No, no, no. Tell it into this.

680
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:45,500
Speaker 1: Okay.

681
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:47,979
Speaker 2: So Karen and I, hold on. Steven tried to go

682
00:31:48,070 --> 00:31:48,830
Speaker 2: off mic with this.

683
00:31:48,870 --> 00:31:50,630
Speaker 3: Cause he's like, I don't want to, I don't want

684
00:31:50,650 --> 00:31:52,470
Speaker 3: to fucking throw it. Cause so see Karen and I

685
00:31:52,490 --> 00:31:54,770
Speaker 3: both today, apparently had to text Steven to go.

686
00:31:54,790 --> 00:31:58,430
Speaker 2: Did we do this already? Yeah. Let's hear it. Well, no, I...

687
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:00,140
Speaker 2: It doesn't matter anyway. I know it doesn't.

688
00:32:00,220 --> 00:32:03,000
Speaker 5: Well, the visuals I sent, because I think you originally

689
00:32:03,060 --> 00:32:04,860
Speaker 5: wanted to do this and then you didn't.

690
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:07,170
Speaker 2: Because it's horrible. Because it's horrible.

691
00:32:07,230 --> 00:32:12,110
Speaker 5: And the final visuals were the giggler and the smiley

692
00:32:12,130 --> 00:32:12,870
Speaker 5: face killer.

693
00:32:13,050 --> 00:32:15,110
Speaker 3: And it doesn't matter too, because the episode we posted

694
00:32:15,130 --> 00:32:18,180
Speaker 3: from Boston isn't this one. So it's only to those

695
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:20,260
Speaker 3: people in Boston in the audience who are turning this

696
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 3: off right now.

697
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:24,020
Speaker 2: Okay, great. But they wouldn't, because now it's your turn

698
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:26,140
Speaker 2: to tell the story. That's my turn. This is almost like,

699
00:32:27,460 --> 00:32:31,550
Speaker 2: what is it? The Curacao movie. Wait, so at the

700
00:32:31,570 --> 00:32:33,310
Speaker 2: show you did do the... Do you think you did this?

701
00:32:33,330 --> 00:32:34,650
Speaker 2: You did the smiley face. All I know.

702
00:32:34,910 --> 00:32:35,410
Speaker 3: No, no, no, no.

703
00:32:35,870 --> 00:32:38,570
Speaker 2: I mean, anything's possible, you guys. All I know is

704
00:32:38,630 --> 00:32:41,479
Speaker 2: I know the Jesse Palmori picture where he's got one

705
00:32:41,500 --> 00:32:43,580
Speaker 2: goosey eye. Yeah, I think you did it. But I

706
00:32:43,620 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 2: could have just looked at it. I do that kind

707
00:32:45,820 --> 00:32:48,280
Speaker 2: of thing where I'm like, look at that weird illustration

708
00:32:48,300 --> 00:32:50,700
Speaker 2: of a bad boy killer in the end. I remember.

709
00:32:50,740 --> 00:32:52,750
Speaker 2: But I was so deep into this by then. It

710
00:32:52,770 --> 00:32:54,890
Speaker 2: was five o'clock. I want to hear it all. Okay.

711
00:32:55,050 --> 00:32:58,670
Speaker 2: I want to hear you tell it to me. I

712
00:32:58,710 --> 00:33:02,300
Speaker 2: don't remember it. Perfect. Because I don't either. Except for

713
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:03,460
Speaker 2: the eye. Okay.

714
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:05,360
Speaker 3: Except for the eye. You know this face. This photo,

715
00:33:05,420 --> 00:33:07,860
Speaker 3: this drawing, it's not a photo. It's a drawing of

716
00:33:07,900 --> 00:33:10,590
Speaker 3: a boy who's got like a milky weird eyes, like a,

717
00:33:10,770 --> 00:33:12,510
Speaker 3: you know, looks 12 or 13 in the photo.

718
00:33:12,610 --> 00:33:12,709
Speaker 4: Okay.

719
00:33:12,730 --> 00:33:13,550
Speaker 3: This is who we're talking about.

720
00:33:13,670 --> 00:33:17,910
Speaker 2: Yeah. This is Jesse Harding Pomeroy.

721
00:33:17,930 --> 00:33:21,070
Speaker 3: He was born into a lower middle class family in

722
00:33:21,130 --> 00:33:23,920
Speaker 3: one of the worst slums of South Boston at the

723
00:33:23,940 --> 00:33:27,500
Speaker 3: time in the late 1800s. Charlestown, had to look it up.

724
00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:28,940
Speaker 3: So I didn't say Charleston.

725
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:29,660
Speaker 2: Oh.

726
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 3: Charlestown.

727
00:33:31,100 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 2: Good one.

728
00:33:32,130 --> 00:33:36,290
Speaker 3: Massachusetts. It's the oldest neighborhood in Boston. So Jesse is

729
00:33:36,350 --> 00:33:41,970
Speaker 3: born on November 29th, 1859. Let's fucking go back there.

730
00:33:42,010 --> 00:33:45,350
Speaker 3: That's all the way back. That's way far back. He's

731
00:33:45,390 --> 00:33:48,730
Speaker 3: the second of two children. His dad, Thomas, is a

732
00:33:48,750 --> 00:33:53,280
Speaker 3: fucking asshole and a veteran of the Civil War. Drinks,

733
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:56,590
Speaker 3: has a horrible temper. He beats Jesse with a horse

734
00:33:56,670 --> 00:33:59,650
Speaker 3: whip or leather belts all the time, often making him

735
00:33:59,770 --> 00:34:01,450
Speaker 3: strip completely before he beats him.

736
00:34:01,750 --> 00:34:04,810
Speaker 2: Ruth Ann Snowman was his mother. She was a seamstress.

737
00:34:04,890 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 3: She adored Jesse. And throughout all of this shit going on,

738
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:11,779
Speaker 3: she never fucking wavered on her thinking on defending him.

739
00:34:12,219 --> 00:34:18,029
Speaker 2: Oh, but come on. OK, lady. Well, sometimes denial is helpful.

740
00:34:18,090 --> 00:34:19,490
Speaker 2: That's true. Okay.

741
00:34:19,950 --> 00:34:22,450
Speaker 3: So he had been a sick baby, left him kind of...

742
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 3: There's all these different accounts of what... Okay, here's what

743
00:34:25,219 --> 00:34:27,560
Speaker 3: I'm going to tell you I found the most times

744
00:34:27,620 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 3: about what was wrong with him.

745
00:34:28,580 --> 00:34:28,900
Speaker 2: Okay.

746
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:31,940
Speaker 3: Because there's so many accounts. It said that he was

747
00:34:31,980 --> 00:34:34,460
Speaker 3: sick as a baby, which left him scrawny and frail.

748
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:36,820
Speaker 3: But it also said that he had a large body,

749
00:34:37,100 --> 00:34:41,440
Speaker 3: oversized body, huge fucking head. His dome was like banana size,

750
00:34:41,460 --> 00:34:42,660
Speaker 3: like so large.

751
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:42,819
Speaker 2: Okay.

752
00:34:43,219 --> 00:34:46,100
Speaker 3: He's had some large, like weird features. I just watched

753
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:48,940
Speaker 3: the Andre, uh, the giant documentary last night. So I'm

754
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:53,430
Speaker 3: like picturing his hand holding a fucking, a fucking beer bottle.

755
00:34:53,450 --> 00:34:56,170
Speaker 2: When it looks like a Barbie toy in a big hand.

756
00:34:56,450 --> 00:34:59,290
Speaker 2: Bless his heart. How sad would it be if you

757
00:34:59,330 --> 00:35:02,149
Speaker 2: had a huge body, but you were still scrawny? Yeah.

758
00:35:02,310 --> 00:35:04,770
Speaker 3: That sucks. Maybe that, maybe his head was normal size

759
00:35:04,810 --> 00:35:07,650
Speaker 3: and his body was scrawny. So it looked like he

760
00:35:07,670 --> 00:35:08,290
Speaker 3: had a giant head.

761
00:35:08,469 --> 00:35:12,180
Speaker 2: Maybe he was a gray alien. Anyway, maybe he.

762
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:16,220
Speaker 3: Was a psychopath. Um, scrawny and fail. It's reported that quote,

763
00:35:16,300 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 3: many people, according to some accounts, including his father, it said, uh,

764
00:35:21,100 --> 00:35:24,700
Speaker 3: could barely look at him without a shutter because his

765
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:28,989
Speaker 3: right eye, uh, maybe due to illness or a reaction

766
00:35:29,030 --> 00:35:33,069
Speaker 3: to a smallpox vaccine. One thing says about, uh, an accident. We,

767
00:35:33,230 --> 00:35:36,529
Speaker 3: it's just hard to tell. I'm sure historians yelling at

768
00:35:36,550 --> 00:35:39,810
Speaker 3: me right now that he had a thick, White film

769
00:35:40,130 --> 00:35:41,290
Speaker 3: covering his pupil.

770
00:35:41,350 --> 00:35:45,000
Speaker 2: So he had one white, milky, like marble eye. Got it.

771
00:35:47,030 --> 00:35:48,410
Speaker 3: Might have had a cleft palate.

772
00:35:48,489 --> 00:35:50,319
Speaker 2: I just want to say really quick, that just made

773
00:35:50,340 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 2: me think of Jimmy Pardo and his Smile Train. You

774
00:35:52,660 --> 00:35:55,239
Speaker 2: know Jimmy Pardo on Never Not Funny Podcast. He does

775
00:35:55,340 --> 00:35:58,750
Speaker 2: all this like... every year he does the podcast with

776
00:35:58,770 --> 00:36:00,930
Speaker 2: on and he raises all this money for smile train

777
00:36:01,390 --> 00:36:04,779
Speaker 2: and smile train goes out and gives anybody that can't

778
00:36:04,820 --> 00:36:07,359
Speaker 2: afford the surgery to fix it. They go fix them.

779
00:36:07,380 --> 00:36:09,319
Speaker 2: That's the most gorgeous thing I've ever heard in my life.

780
00:36:09,340 --> 00:36:11,219
Speaker 2: It's very, very cool. It's very sweet.

781
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:11,540
Speaker 1: Okay.

782
00:36:11,580 --> 00:36:11,779
Speaker 3: Sorry.

783
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:13,779
Speaker 2: I just wanted to say that. No positive thing.

784
00:36:14,340 --> 00:36:17,770
Speaker 3: Can you just every couple, every page add in a

785
00:36:17,830 --> 00:36:19,670
Speaker 3: fucking positive thing, please.

786
00:36:19,890 --> 00:36:22,230
Speaker 2: Cause this is a really depressing story. This is a

787
00:36:22,250 --> 00:36:24,009
Speaker 2: bad one. Yeah, but I'm doing it. Okay. Do it.

788
00:36:24,469 --> 00:36:28,270
Speaker 3: Um, So everyone said that there was something wrong with Jesse,

789
00:36:28,330 --> 00:36:29,970
Speaker 3: that he wasn't quite right.

790
00:36:30,850 --> 00:36:32,810
Speaker 2: He got bullied and teased a lot at school.

791
00:36:33,030 --> 00:36:37,049
Speaker 3: A neighbor said that at five years old, and here's

792
00:36:37,090 --> 00:36:39,990
Speaker 3: where I lose all fucking sympathy, Jesse stabbed a cat

793
00:36:40,010 --> 00:36:40,840
Speaker 3: and threw it in the river.

794
00:36:41,140 --> 00:36:41,259
Speaker 4: Oh.

795
00:36:41,739 --> 00:36:47,880
Speaker 2: Goodbye. If he had a bad eye and a cleft palate, he...

796
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:53,000
Speaker 2: Had a shitty time at school every single goddamn day.

797
00:36:53,100 --> 00:36:54,030
Speaker 2: I agree. You're right.

798
00:36:54,260 --> 00:36:57,589
Speaker 3: Every day in South fucking Boston, he got teased mercilessly.

799
00:36:58,190 --> 00:37:01,310
Speaker 2: Shitty. Yes. And pets also disappeared from their home all

800
00:37:01,330 --> 00:37:04,940
Speaker 2: the time. That's a bad sign. He was a loner.

801
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:08,100
Speaker 3: He never played or really spoke with other children in

802
00:37:08,140 --> 00:37:10,030
Speaker 3: the neighborhood. Maybe because they fucking bullied him.

803
00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:11,480
Speaker 2: Maybe because they were assholes. Yeah.

804
00:37:11,900 --> 00:37:14,840
Speaker 3: He preferred to spend his time alone reading dime novels.

805
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:17,500
Speaker 3: His favorite was a series based on a man named

806
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 3: Simon Gurdie. He was a renegade white dude amongst the

807
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:25,779
Speaker 3: Shawnee Indians. And he let they all went on a

808
00:37:25,820 --> 00:37:29,670
Speaker 3: front on frontier settler massacres in the 1780s. And they

809
00:37:29,710 --> 00:37:33,069
Speaker 3: made a fucking like serial dime store novels about this.

810
00:37:33,370 --> 00:37:38,950
Speaker 2: Wow. Yeah. He was on Native American side. Yeah. Wow. Massacred. Shit.

811
00:37:38,989 --> 00:37:39,149
Speaker 4: Yeah.

812
00:37:39,850 --> 00:37:42,190
Speaker 2: Which is like something they talk about in The Alienist.

813
00:37:42,710 --> 00:37:43,549
Speaker 2: That's exactly right.

814
00:37:43,570 --> 00:37:44,390
Speaker 1: Oh, it's so creepy.

815
00:37:44,790 --> 00:37:45,950
Speaker 2: Oh, so they took pieces.

816
00:37:46,050 --> 00:37:46,729
Speaker 3: They must have.

817
00:37:46,950 --> 00:37:47,210
Speaker 6: Awesome.

818
00:37:47,310 --> 00:37:51,950
Speaker 3: Okay, here we go. And the stories are full of

819
00:37:52,050 --> 00:37:54,700
Speaker 3: blood and sex and gore and wars and battle and

820
00:37:54,739 --> 00:37:57,580
Speaker 3: crazy shit. And this little kid is reading this stuff.

821
00:37:57,600 --> 00:37:59,779
Speaker 3: So it's like video games now. Like, did it do

822
00:37:59,900 --> 00:38:00,620
Speaker 3: it or did it not?

823
00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:04,900
Speaker 2: We don't know. Or Us with Stephen King. I mean,

824
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:07,660
Speaker 2: I read Stephen King way too young. Yeah. Yeah.

825
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:11,940
Speaker 3: Yeah, but that wasn't real. It was like campy and

826
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:12,500
Speaker 3: kind of.

827
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:20,629
Speaker 2: I wish someone had told me that. Oh, shit, Karen. Wait,

828
00:38:20,670 --> 00:38:20,880
Speaker 2: so you.

829
00:38:21,370 --> 00:38:23,610
Speaker 4: You didn't know cars can't talk? I've been trying to

830
00:38:23,650 --> 00:38:26,110
Speaker 4: light shit on fire with my eyes for years. I know,

831
00:38:26,130 --> 00:38:28,090
Speaker 4: that's why you get headaches. My daddy actually used to

832
00:38:28,150 --> 00:38:29,609
Speaker 4: say that when I would get mad. He'd go, don't

833
00:38:29,770 --> 00:38:31,029
Speaker 4: give me those fire starter eyes.

834
00:38:31,110 --> 00:38:32,430
Speaker 2: Oh, shit.

835
00:38:33,989 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 3: Okay, so Jesse's first reported attack... took place in the

836
00:38:39,140 --> 00:38:41,750
Speaker 3: boston suburb of chelsea which was across the river from

837
00:38:41,770 --> 00:38:44,750
Speaker 3: where they lived he goes over chelsea um jesse had

838
00:38:44,850 --> 00:38:48,210
Speaker 3: just turned 12 years old oh he's a fucking baby

839
00:38:48,290 --> 00:38:53,960
Speaker 3: baby it's around christmas time of 1871 and jesse somehow

840
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:56,819
Speaker 3: entices a small boy named billy pain to come with

841
00:38:56,860 --> 00:39:00,020
Speaker 3: him to a remote area and as soon as they're

842
00:39:00,060 --> 00:39:03,569
Speaker 3: alone and don't worry i don't get too detailed. Okay. Uh,

843
00:39:03,989 --> 00:39:06,830
Speaker 3: Jesse forces the child to take off all his clothes,

844
00:39:06,969 --> 00:39:09,850
Speaker 3: just like his fucking dad does. And then he ties

845
00:39:09,890 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 3: him up and takes a rope and flogs the child. Um,

846
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:18,980
Speaker 3: the kid, once he's, uh, and then Jesse leaves, once

847
00:39:19,020 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 3: the kid is found, he's too traumatized to give police

848
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:23,770
Speaker 3: a good description of who attacked him. I think just

849
00:39:23,790 --> 00:39:26,489
Speaker 3: said he was a teenager or something like that because

850
00:39:26,510 --> 00:39:28,069
Speaker 3: he also looked, he was tall and looked old for

851
00:39:28,110 --> 00:39:31,030
Speaker 3: his age two months later and this is like this

852
00:39:31,090 --> 00:39:33,299
Speaker 3: is so crazy because it's such a quick succession of

853
00:39:33,340 --> 00:39:38,020
Speaker 3: attacks yeah two months later in february of 1872 jesse

854
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:42,200
Speaker 3: led seven-year-old tracy hayden to the same area promising that

855
00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:44,900
Speaker 3: they were going to quote see the soldiers.

856
00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:47,620
Speaker 2: Because that's where they were fought.

857
00:39:48,890 --> 00:39:53,190
Speaker 3: He repeated his first assault on Tracy, as well as

858
00:39:53,310 --> 00:39:57,850
Speaker 3: on his next victim in May of 1872, eight-year-old Robert Mayer,

859
00:39:58,330 --> 00:40:00,440
Speaker 3: who he lured away by promising him a trip to

860
00:40:00,500 --> 00:40:05,219
Speaker 3: see the circus. In this attack, the boy said that

861
00:40:05,500 --> 00:40:08,839
Speaker 3: the assailant, who he couldn't describe, sexually pleasured himself while

862
00:40:08,860 --> 00:40:10,120
Speaker 3: inflicting his beating.

863
00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:12,009
Speaker 2: And he achieved success.

864
00:40:12,540 --> 00:40:16,739
Speaker 3: Sexual satisfaction at the height of the boy's suffering.

865
00:40:17,020 --> 00:40:19,380
Speaker 2: God, he's so young to be doing that.

866
00:40:19,460 --> 00:40:23,140
Speaker 3: Something is going on at home or other places.

867
00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:25,850
Speaker 2: Some bad, bad stuff.

868
00:40:26,630 --> 00:40:29,330
Speaker 3: I feel like it takes years for people to equate

869
00:40:30,370 --> 00:40:31,270
Speaker 3: pain and sex.

870
00:40:32,460 --> 00:40:32,740
Speaker 2: Right.

871
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:34,680
Speaker 3: You know what I mean? Like, that happens when kids

872
00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:37,350
Speaker 3: are older in their teens and 20s because it takes

873
00:40:37,630 --> 00:40:39,710
Speaker 3: so fucking long to get to that place where your

874
00:40:39,750 --> 00:40:42,350
Speaker 3: brain is like, these are the things that turn me

875
00:40:42,489 --> 00:40:43,049
Speaker 3: on and make me come.

876
00:40:43,070 --> 00:40:46,009
Speaker 2: Except for if your dad is stripping you and beating you.

877
00:40:46,050 --> 00:40:48,050
Speaker 3: Well, it's that your dad is stripping you and beating

878
00:40:48,070 --> 00:40:50,279
Speaker 3: you so often that it happened by the time he

879
00:40:50,300 --> 00:40:50,480
Speaker 3: was 12.

880
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:51,160
Speaker 2: Yeah.

881
00:40:51,219 --> 00:40:53,180
Speaker 3: So I'm not telling myself something was going on his

882
00:40:53,219 --> 00:40:55,000
Speaker 3: entire fucking life to get him there.

883
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:57,759
Speaker 2: Yeah. It's so dark. I know. Okay.

884
00:40:58,100 --> 00:40:59,819
Speaker 3: And I'm doing it. It does look like Steven keeps

885
00:40:59,860 --> 00:41:03,330
Speaker 3: holding up a fucking... no fucking cue card for.

886
00:41:03,110 --> 00:41:04,989
Speaker 2: It literally looks like in the corner of our it

887
00:41:05,010 --> 00:41:07,989
Speaker 2: looks like steven's like 30 seconds 30 seconds to commercial

888
00:41:09,030 --> 00:41:09,509
Speaker 2: i think it's.

889
00:41:09,450 --> 00:41:12,650
Speaker 5: Because this i upgraded my notebook to be a lot bigger.

890
00:41:13,370 --> 00:41:16,250
Speaker 6: Oh so it looks like well let's write some messages

891
00:41:16,350 --> 00:41:19,830
Speaker 6: on there yeah tell me anything um just right you're

892
00:41:19,850 --> 00:41:23,250
Speaker 6: doing great george no one is horrified by this no

893
00:41:23,330 --> 00:41:25,670
Speaker 6: one thinks no one's gonna stop listening to this podcast

894
00:41:25,690 --> 00:41:27,049
Speaker 6: because of this yeah.

895
00:41:26,770 --> 00:41:29,569
Speaker 2: This is actually what people listen for oh great okay

896
00:41:30,070 --> 00:41:34,110
Speaker 2: great Not great. However, uh, okay.

897
00:41:34,219 --> 00:41:37,799
Speaker 3: So then he took off, left the boy alive. So

898
00:41:37,940 --> 00:41:41,200
Speaker 3: keeping with his 60 to 90 day cycle, Jesse, then, uh,

899
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:47,430
Speaker 3: in mid July of 1872, lures seven-year-old Johnny Balk to

900
00:41:47,850 --> 00:41:53,610
Speaker 3: the outhouse on the Powderhorn Hill in Boston, excuse me, uh,

901
00:41:54,190 --> 00:41:57,719
Speaker 3: With this promise of two bits for running an errand.

902
00:41:57,780 --> 00:41:59,160
Speaker 3: He's like, come on over here.

903
00:41:59,380 --> 00:42:00,340
Speaker 2: Two bits. Two bits.

904
00:42:00,460 --> 00:42:02,800
Speaker 3: Don't know how much that is. The assault was similar

905
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:05,160
Speaker 3: to the previous ones. The boy was stripped, bound, whipped

906
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:10,540
Speaker 3: and beaten until Jesse achieved orgasm. Then he said he'd

907
00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:13,480
Speaker 3: kill the boy if he ever told anyone and he

908
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:17,620
Speaker 3: got the fuck out of there. The public starts going bananas.

909
00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:21,310
Speaker 3: They flip out. They start calling him the mysterious boy fiend.

910
00:42:21,430 --> 00:42:23,610
Speaker 3: The police are under pressure to capture him, but they

911
00:42:23,630 --> 00:42:25,610
Speaker 3: didn't have very much of a description to go on

912
00:42:25,650 --> 00:42:28,290
Speaker 3: other than the attacker was a teenage boy with brown hair.

913
00:42:28,530 --> 00:42:29,730
Speaker 3: That's all they fucking had.

914
00:42:29,820 --> 00:42:30,140
Speaker 2: Wow.

915
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:32,600
Speaker 3: Yeah. So like all the teenage boys got rounded up

916
00:42:32,660 --> 00:42:34,660
Speaker 3: and they were like parading them in front of the

917
00:42:34,700 --> 00:42:37,800
Speaker 3: victims and they couldn't identify any of them. The city

918
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:41,360
Speaker 3: of Chelsea offers a thousand dollar reward and the police

919
00:42:42,570 --> 00:42:43,810
Speaker 3: launch an investigation.

920
00:42:43,830 --> 00:42:44,549
Speaker 1: Okay.

921
00:42:44,950 --> 00:42:45,109
Speaker 4: Okay.

922
00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:47,819
Speaker 2: The attacks stop at.

923
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:50,390
Speaker 3: This point just for a little while in late July,

924
00:42:50,690 --> 00:42:53,870
Speaker 3: possibly due to turmoil in the Pomeroy house when Jesse's

925
00:42:53,950 --> 00:42:57,970
Speaker 3: father takes off and leaves Ruth to provide for herself

926
00:42:58,030 --> 00:43:01,650
Speaker 3: and her sons. There's like not information about why he

927
00:43:01,690 --> 00:43:03,940
Speaker 3: left or what, but kind of good riddance.

928
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:07,100
Speaker 2: Yeah, for real. But it could also be.

929
00:43:07,980 --> 00:43:11,460
Speaker 3: So they end up moving, and that could be because

930
00:43:11,580 --> 00:43:14,259
Speaker 3: the dad left, but it could also be because there

931
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:17,950
Speaker 3: was a description of the, quote, boy torturer in the paper,

932
00:43:18,090 --> 00:43:20,690
Speaker 3: and she possibly read it, recognized it as her son,

933
00:43:20,770 --> 00:43:23,330
Speaker 3: and was like, yeet, we're getting the fuck out of

934
00:43:23,350 --> 00:43:23,970
Speaker 3: this neighborhood.

935
00:43:24,530 --> 00:43:28,930
Speaker 2: And this was long ago enough that if your description

936
00:43:28,950 --> 00:43:31,560
Speaker 2: got put in the paper and you left town and

937
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:34,410
Speaker 2: just moved, like, a neighborhood over, no one would find you.

938
00:43:34,460 --> 00:43:35,140
Speaker 3: And no one knew you.

939
00:43:35,340 --> 00:43:35,540
Speaker 4: Yes.

940
00:43:35,620 --> 00:43:36,259
Speaker 3: At the next neighborhood.

941
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:36,360
Speaker 2: Yeah.

942
00:43:36,380 --> 00:43:36,540
Speaker 4: Totally.

943
00:43:36,580 --> 00:43:36,920
Speaker 2: Totally.

944
00:43:38,020 --> 00:43:40,359
Speaker 3: Um, it's not like, what's that app we have where

945
00:43:40,380 --> 00:43:42,220
Speaker 3: we can talk to our neighbors about weird shit.

946
00:43:42,060 --> 00:43:43,500
Speaker 2: In the neighborhood? Fucking Nextdoor.

947
00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:44,339
Speaker 3: Do you love it?

948
00:43:45,210 --> 00:43:49,609
Speaker 2: My neighborhood, it's filled with paranoid lunatic retirees who are like,

949
00:43:49,870 --> 00:43:54,529
Speaker 2: who's stealing the oranges off my tree? It's insanity. I

950
00:43:54,830 --> 00:43:59,080
Speaker 2: read it. I read, laugh and delete them every single day. Well,

951
00:43:59,140 --> 00:44:00,000
Speaker 2: this wasn't happening.

952
00:44:00,020 --> 00:44:00,200
Speaker 4: Okay.

953
00:44:00,219 --> 00:44:00,960
Speaker 2: Then. Then.

954
00:44:02,090 --> 00:44:05,630
Speaker 3: She, okay, so Ruth rents a small storefront in South

955
00:44:05,690 --> 00:44:08,870
Speaker 3: Boston for her dressmaking shop. She opens a dressmaking shop.

956
00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:13,090
Speaker 3: In August of 1872, the three of them, the mom

957
00:44:13,110 --> 00:44:15,520
Speaker 3: and sons, move to a flat across the street from

958
00:44:15,580 --> 00:44:18,660
Speaker 3: the shop. And the boys help out in the shop.

959
00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:21,799
Speaker 3: And the move coincides almost exactly with the end of

960
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:25,000
Speaker 3: the Chelsea attacks and the beginning of the South Boston attacks.

961
00:44:25,460 --> 00:44:28,719
Speaker 2: So... Yeah. And this is where Marky Mark comes into

962
00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:29,780
Speaker 2: this story. That's right.

963
00:44:30,260 --> 00:44:32,220
Speaker 3: Do a fucking, I dare you to do an accent

964
00:44:32,260 --> 00:44:36,759
Speaker 3: right now. That's all I can do. It was the

965
00:44:36,780 --> 00:44:38,399
Speaker 3: best anyone's ever done.

966
00:44:38,420 --> 00:44:41,009
Speaker 2: I don't understand the Boston accent. I can't do it

967
00:44:41,030 --> 00:44:43,069
Speaker 2: and I can't hear it in my head. I don't

968
00:44:43,110 --> 00:44:44,489
Speaker 2: get it. I had it when I was trying to

969
00:44:44,530 --> 00:44:47,930
Speaker 2: get Charlestown, but it's gone and I won't try it.

970
00:44:48,030 --> 00:44:53,410
Speaker 3: Okay. On August 17th, 1872, seven-year-old George Pratt was wandering

971
00:44:53,430 --> 00:44:56,839
Speaker 3: around South Boston shoreline looking for a Treasure?

972
00:44:56,860 --> 00:44:59,920
Speaker 2: A little boy looking for treasure. Oh, no.

973
00:44:59,960 --> 00:45:01,760
Speaker 3: Sorry, I ruined that word for you.

974
00:45:01,780 --> 00:45:02,209
Speaker 2: That's okay.

975
00:45:02,530 --> 00:45:04,629
Speaker 3: When he was approached by an older boy who offered

976
00:45:04,670 --> 00:45:08,130
Speaker 3: him 25 cents to help him run an errand, Jesse

977
00:45:08,190 --> 00:45:11,549
Speaker 3: binds and tortures the boy, and this time, so it

978
00:45:11,610 --> 00:45:13,170
Speaker 3: starts to escalate at this point.

979
00:45:13,230 --> 00:45:15,020
Speaker 2: Okay.

980
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:18,940
Speaker 3: He bites chunks of flesh from the boy's body and

981
00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:20,520
Speaker 3: also stabs him with needles.

982
00:45:20,540 --> 00:45:25,160
Speaker 2: Fuck. I know. And this kid's 12 who's doing this.

983
00:45:25,850 --> 00:45:28,070
Speaker 3: Less than a month later, Jesse kidnaps and assaults a

984
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:32,420
Speaker 3: six-year-old boy named Harry Austin, stripped and beaten like his

985
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:36,160
Speaker 3: previous victims. But this time, it escalates. He takes out

986
00:45:36,180 --> 00:45:40,540
Speaker 3: his pocket knife and stabs the child under each arm.

987
00:45:41,410 --> 00:45:45,930
Speaker 3: I guess it wasn't a deep stab. And he goes

988
00:45:45,989 --> 00:45:49,669
Speaker 3: to try to castrate the boy, but someone comes by

989
00:45:49,710 --> 00:45:51,009
Speaker 3: just at that moment and he runs off.

990
00:45:51,270 --> 00:45:52,410
Speaker 2: Good God, thank God.

991
00:45:52,489 --> 00:45:56,280
Speaker 3: I know, right? Then six days after this, of six,

992
00:45:56,300 --> 00:46:00,219
Speaker 3: like this is a fucking fiend. This person is mad.

993
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:01,910
Speaker 3: He's a sexual psychopath.

994
00:46:01,989 --> 00:46:02,529
Speaker 2: That's right.

995
00:46:02,630 --> 00:46:04,290
Speaker 3: At 12, doing these things.

996
00:46:04,310 --> 00:46:04,750
Speaker 2: Horrible.

997
00:46:05,190 --> 00:46:08,570
Speaker 3: Six days after Austin was attacked, Jesse lures Joseph Kennedy,

998
00:46:08,590 --> 00:46:10,830
Speaker 3: who was seven, into the marshes near the bay and

999
00:46:11,110 --> 00:46:15,170
Speaker 3: viciously beats him. Like Austin, attacked with a knife. And

1000
00:46:15,210 --> 00:46:19,250
Speaker 3: Jesse forces the boy to kneel and recite the Lord's Prayer,

1001
00:46:19,290 --> 00:46:20,370
Speaker 3: but with obscenities.

1002
00:46:20,390 --> 00:46:20,460
Speaker 4: Yes.

1003
00:46:21,030 --> 00:46:23,870
Speaker 2: Which is such a childish, weird thing to do. You

1004
00:46:24,510 --> 00:46:26,940
Speaker 2: know what's funny? When you first started talking about this,

1005
00:46:26,980 --> 00:46:29,439
Speaker 2: I was like, I wonder if this guy's Catholic. This

1006
00:46:29,580 --> 00:46:30,420
Speaker 2: boy's Catholic.

1007
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:35,360
Speaker 3: I wonder, like, maybe something was going on in his home. Like,

1008
00:46:35,420 --> 00:46:37,700
Speaker 3: not just with his dad, obviously, but in his school

1009
00:46:37,780 --> 00:46:39,180
Speaker 3: or at church.

1010
00:46:39,540 --> 00:46:41,910
Speaker 2: Some creepy priest somewhere along the line.

1011
00:46:41,969 --> 00:46:42,350
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1012
00:46:42,410 --> 00:46:43,890
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1013
00:46:43,950 --> 00:46:45,590
Speaker 3: As much as people want to think, like, you're born

1014
00:46:45,630 --> 00:46:48,450
Speaker 3: this way. You're born evil. It's not a thing.

1015
00:46:48,469 --> 00:46:48,549
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1016
00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:52,719
Speaker 2: I mean, if he's a sociopath, he wouldn't care if

1017
00:46:52,820 --> 00:46:54,490
Speaker 2: he's hurting people, but it does.

1018
00:46:54,530 --> 00:46:56,750
Speaker 3: If you don't become a sociopath, you don't, you're not

1019
00:46:56,850 --> 00:46:59,610
Speaker 3: born a sociopath. You become a sociopath.

1020
00:46:59,650 --> 00:47:02,430
Speaker 2: No, I think you're born a sociopath. Is it nature

1021
00:47:02,469 --> 00:47:05,270
Speaker 2: or nurture? Let's decide right now. Let's debate it. Let's,

1022
00:47:05,370 --> 00:47:06,250
Speaker 2: let's debate it.

1023
00:47:09,770 --> 00:47:14,049
Speaker 3: Good lead okay six okay six days later like the

1024
00:47:14,090 --> 00:47:16,650
Speaker 3: fact that he thought that reciting the lord's prayer but

1025
00:47:16,690 --> 00:47:21,209
Speaker 3: with obscenities was like part of the torture shows what

1026
00:47:21,250 --> 00:47:24,529
Speaker 3: a child he was and how and how uh.

1027
00:47:27,210 --> 00:47:31,780
Speaker 2: How off his understanding of I don't know. I just,

1028
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:33,719
Speaker 2: I have to say to me, when you just said

1029
00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:35,350
Speaker 2: that fact, it kind of made my heart race a

1030
00:47:35,370 --> 00:47:37,089
Speaker 2: little bit. Oh, cause it's like, you're going to get

1031
00:47:37,170 --> 00:47:40,370
Speaker 2: like fucking say the boys during the Lord's prayer. The

1032
00:47:40,390 --> 00:47:41,569
Speaker 2: boy refused to do it.

1033
00:47:41,690 --> 00:47:41,930
Speaker 1: Yes.

1034
00:47:43,090 --> 00:47:43,230
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1035
00:47:43,270 --> 00:47:47,140
Speaker 2: That's very like, that's, that's so taboo. It's, it's like

1036
00:47:47,500 --> 00:47:51,340
Speaker 2: a consecrated, that's not the right word, but it's holy thing.

1037
00:47:51,460 --> 00:47:54,169
Speaker 2: It's like, you're talking to God. So it's like you're saying,

1038
00:47:54,310 --> 00:47:58,510
Speaker 2: fuck you, God. Oh, no. Which is not allowed in 1860, whatever.

1039
00:47:59,630 --> 00:48:02,489
Speaker 3: Can you sample that track of Karen saying, fuck you, God,

1040
00:48:02,510 --> 00:48:04,890
Speaker 3: and just put a fucking hard techno beat and then

1041
00:48:05,489 --> 00:48:07,239
Speaker 3: send it to her school that she went to, her

1042
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:08,299
Speaker 3: Catholic school she went to?

1043
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:13,460
Speaker 2: Good vibrations. Fuck you, God. Oh, my God.

1044
00:48:13,500 --> 00:48:15,140
Speaker 1: That would be amazing.

1045
00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:16,480
Speaker 2: This is not funny.

1046
00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:17,319
Speaker 3: No, it's not.

1047
00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:21,239
Speaker 2: Six days later, five-year-old... It's actually stressing me out.

1048
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:21,480
Speaker 3: I'm sorry.

1049
00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:23,960
Speaker 2: Are you okay? No, no, no. I mean, because it's just...

1050
00:48:24,140 --> 00:48:26,120
Speaker 2: It's bad. It's bad. I know.

1051
00:48:26,420 --> 00:48:26,700
Speaker 4: No, no.

1052
00:48:26,719 --> 00:48:28,880
Speaker 2: Go ahead. Okay. Stressing in a good way.

1053
00:48:30,239 --> 00:48:33,219
Speaker 3: Six days later, a five-year-old boy named Robert Gould was

1054
00:48:33,660 --> 00:48:37,459
Speaker 3: found lashed to a post near railroad tracks in South

1055
00:48:37,500 --> 00:48:40,550
Speaker 3: Boston and he told about an older boy who lured

1056
00:48:40,590 --> 00:48:42,950
Speaker 3: him to the remote area with a promise to see soldiers.

1057
00:48:43,489 --> 00:48:45,190
Speaker 3: And then when they were alone, the boy stripped him

1058
00:48:45,230 --> 00:48:46,150
Speaker 3: and beat him and.

1059
00:48:47,910 --> 00:48:51,509
Speaker 3: Slashed him. And this kid, Robert, was finally able to

1060
00:48:51,550 --> 00:48:53,660
Speaker 3: give the police their first good lead in the case

1061
00:48:53,820 --> 00:48:56,779
Speaker 3: after all these victims. He described his attacker as a

1062
00:48:56,840 --> 00:49:00,319
Speaker 3: large boy with an eye like a white marble.

1063
00:49:00,739 --> 00:49:03,780
Speaker 2: Oh, okay. I wonder why none of these other boys,

1064
00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:06,270
Speaker 2: he must have hid it from them somehow. I think

1065
00:49:06,330 --> 00:49:09,390
Speaker 2: they were really traumatized, too. Yeah, I guess that's true.

1066
00:49:09,410 --> 00:49:11,810
Speaker 2: I don't think they could talk about it, maybe.

1067
00:49:12,130 --> 00:49:12,390
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1068
00:49:12,450 --> 00:49:15,230
Speaker 2: Who knows? So horrible. The Boston police.

1069
00:49:15,530 --> 00:49:19,300
Speaker 3: Okay. So then, uh, they're like, great. They fucking conduct

1070
00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:22,500
Speaker 3: a classroom by classroom search of the Boston school system.

1071
00:49:22,540 --> 00:49:24,819
Speaker 3: They even go to Jesse's fucking school, but somehow they

1072
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:28,760
Speaker 3: didn't see him. And then for an unknown reason, maybe guilt,

1073
00:49:28,969 --> 00:49:30,230
Speaker 3: maybe toying with them.

1074
00:49:30,290 --> 00:49:31,149
Speaker 2: Who the fuck knows?

1075
00:49:31,190 --> 00:49:33,790
Speaker 3: Maybe he was 12 and didn't have, wasn't thinking the

1076
00:49:33,810 --> 00:49:37,279
Speaker 3: way we think. In fact, on his way home from

1077
00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:40,040
Speaker 3: school that day, Jesse walks into the South Boston police

1078
00:49:40,080 --> 00:49:44,569
Speaker 3: station where detectives are sitting and questioning the victim, Joe Kennedy.

1079
00:49:44,590 --> 00:49:48,850
Speaker 3: He's Joe spots Jesse from across the room. And in

1080
00:49:48,890 --> 00:49:51,850
Speaker 3: the meantime, Jesse's like, for some reason, like bad ideas,

1081
00:49:51,870 --> 00:49:53,529
Speaker 3: like fucking crab walking out of there.

1082
00:49:53,550 --> 00:49:53,970
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1083
00:49:54,330 --> 00:49:58,830
Speaker 3: Fucking Joe Kennedy is like, that's fucking him and starts

1084
00:49:58,850 --> 00:49:59,629
Speaker 3: yelling at that.

1085
00:49:59,670 --> 00:50:00,069
Speaker 2: That's him.

1086
00:50:00,810 --> 00:50:02,770
Speaker 3: And so the police grab him.

1087
00:50:03,210 --> 00:50:03,430
Speaker 4: Okay.

1088
00:50:03,690 --> 00:50:05,610
Speaker 3: A few other victims were able to identify Jesse as

1089
00:50:05,630 --> 00:50:08,580
Speaker 3: their attacker, including one from the Chelsea neighborhood who exclaimed,

1090
00:50:09,060 --> 00:50:12,400
Speaker 3: that's the boy who cut me. Shit. Later that night

1091
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:15,960
Speaker 3: during questioning, he confessed to all the crimes and he's,

1092
00:50:16,260 --> 00:50:19,100
Speaker 3: but he later recants all of that, but he is arrested.

1093
00:50:20,060 --> 00:50:21,969
Speaker 3: And due to his age, he's sentenced to the state

1094
00:50:22,050 --> 00:50:25,950
Speaker 3: reform school at Westboro for the term of his minority

1095
00:50:26,070 --> 00:50:30,370
Speaker 3: six years. Oh, so he's 12 years old and they're like,

1096
00:50:30,850 --> 00:50:32,800
Speaker 3: You did all this horrible stuff. You're going to a

1097
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:33,620
Speaker 3: reformatory school.

1098
00:50:33,940 --> 00:50:34,180
Speaker 1: Okay.

1099
00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:34,560
Speaker 3: That's it.

1100
00:50:35,020 --> 00:50:35,359
Speaker 2: The end.

1101
00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:40,540
Speaker 3: No. Unfortunately. Do you want it to be?

1102
00:50:40,560 --> 00:50:44,339
Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, no. Jesse is a star inmate.

1103
00:50:44,590 --> 00:50:46,549
Speaker 3: He applies himself to his studies, but of course he's

1104
00:50:46,630 --> 00:50:48,930
Speaker 3: bullied by the other children. And his mother is like,

1105
00:50:49,010 --> 00:50:50,870
Speaker 3: hell if I can know he didn't do it. And

1106
00:50:50,930 --> 00:50:56,370
Speaker 3: she hardcore petitions for his parole. And it's confirmed before

1107
00:50:56,410 --> 00:51:01,219
Speaker 3: he even spent two years there. So Jesse, he's now 13,

1108
00:51:01,219 --> 00:51:07,540
Speaker 3: is quietly paroled into his mother's custody on February 6th, 1874.

1109
00:51:07,620 --> 00:51:09,850
Speaker 2: These pieces of the story are coming back to me.

1110
00:51:10,780 --> 00:51:13,719
Speaker 2: Like the thing in the police station where I'm like,

1111
00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:15,510
Speaker 2: I think I did do this at a live show.

1112
00:51:15,590 --> 00:51:18,170
Speaker 2: I think you did. But my brain is such that

1113
00:51:18,390 --> 00:51:21,089
Speaker 2: it's also a very new experience where I'm like, he

1114
00:51:21,130 --> 00:51:22,430
Speaker 2: did not get paroled.

1115
00:51:22,450 --> 00:51:23,910
Speaker 3: Did you do it at New York?

1116
00:51:24,190 --> 00:51:28,690
Speaker 2: In New York? I don't fucking know. Who cares? Let's

1117
00:51:28,710 --> 00:51:30,450
Speaker 2: just talk. Let's just talk.

1118
00:51:30,469 --> 00:51:31,650
Speaker 1: That's what our podcast is called now.

1119
00:51:31,670 --> 00:51:35,509
Speaker 2: That's what it's about. Let's just talk. We love talking. Okay,

1120
00:51:35,530 --> 00:51:39,380
Speaker 2: so he's paroled. And then in April... On April 22nd, 1874.

1121
00:51:39,380 --> 00:51:40,000
Speaker 3: All right.

1122
00:51:40,219 --> 00:51:44,300
Speaker 2: This list gets bummer. Okay.

1123
00:51:44,719 --> 00:51:46,660
Speaker 3: I mean, not that it hasn't been. Two boys playing

1124
00:51:46,700 --> 00:51:51,080
Speaker 3: in the marshes between South Boston and Savin, near South Boston.

1125
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:52,879
Speaker 2: Say it. Savin Hill.

1126
00:51:53,989 --> 00:51:54,339
Speaker 3: Spell it.

1127
00:51:54,510 --> 00:51:55,260
Speaker 2: S-A-V-I-N.

1128
00:51:55,590 --> 00:51:55,710
Speaker 4: Oh.

1129
00:51:55,930 --> 00:51:57,770
Speaker 2: Savin. Savin or Savin.

1130
00:51:57,830 --> 00:51:58,430
Speaker 3: Savin Hill.

1131
00:51:58,650 --> 00:52:01,109
Speaker 2: Or a third option that we could never anticipate. That's

1132
00:52:01,170 --> 00:52:06,509
Speaker 2: not spelled the way it sounds. Or, yeah, it's, it's seven. Seven. Okay,

1133
00:52:06,530 --> 00:52:08,049
Speaker 2: go ahead. They discover the.

1134
00:52:08,030 --> 00:52:10,390
Speaker 3: Body of a young boy lying on his back in

1135
00:52:10,430 --> 00:52:10,750
Speaker 3: the mud.

1136
00:52:10,770 --> 00:52:15,330
Speaker 2: I know. So little boys find a dead little boy? Yeah.

1137
00:52:16,350 --> 00:52:18,990
Speaker 3: Police are summoned and the boy is identified as Horace

1138
00:52:19,090 --> 00:52:21,210
Speaker 3: Millen of South Boston.

1139
00:52:21,630 --> 00:52:24,549
Speaker 2: He's four years old. I know. I'm sorry.

1140
00:52:25,160 --> 00:52:28,620
Speaker 3: His throat's been cut and his body had numerous stab wounds,

1141
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:30,520
Speaker 3: around 33 total.

1142
00:52:30,860 --> 00:52:31,300
Speaker 2: Whoa.

1143
00:52:31,380 --> 00:52:33,060
Speaker 3: He'd also been sexually mutilated.

1144
00:52:33,080 --> 00:52:36,950
Speaker 2: Fucking... Escalation. Escalation. Yeah.

1145
00:52:37,630 --> 00:52:40,950
Speaker 3: Police found footprints nearby that led back to a wharf

1146
00:52:40,969 --> 00:52:44,350
Speaker 3: a half a mile away. And there, they, like, follow

1147
00:52:44,370 --> 00:52:46,989
Speaker 3: the fucking footprints. And they're like, hey, anyone around here

1148
00:52:47,030 --> 00:52:50,560
Speaker 3: see anything this morning? And a bunch of witnesses recall

1149
00:52:50,680 --> 00:52:55,420
Speaker 3: a young teenager walking around with Horace. The boys, the

1150
00:52:55,460 --> 00:52:58,400
Speaker 3: two boys, the teenager and Horace, then jump from the wharf.

1151
00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:01,500
Speaker 3: The older boy helps this little companion down.

1152
00:53:01,520 --> 00:53:03,049
Speaker 2: And then.

1153
00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:06,080
Speaker 3: He takes the older boy's hand and together they walk

1154
00:53:06,140 --> 00:53:10,170
Speaker 3: away across the marshes towards where Horace's body had been found.

1155
00:53:10,469 --> 00:53:14,090
Speaker 2: Awful. I know. And also very Mary Bell. Yeah, exactly.

1156
00:53:14,110 --> 00:53:17,330
Speaker 2: Mary Bell is like always mentioned in this kind of,

1157
00:53:17,969 --> 00:53:20,540
Speaker 2: in his articles. Yeah, it's that same thing. And she was,

1158
00:53:21,020 --> 00:53:25,319
Speaker 2: she was being basically sexually tortured. Totally. There's no way

1159
00:53:25,360 --> 00:53:25,820
Speaker 2: he wasn't.

1160
00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:26,100
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1161
00:53:26,219 --> 00:53:28,920
Speaker 3: I mean, even just like his, what his dad was

1162
00:53:28,940 --> 00:53:31,279
Speaker 3: doing to him. It was way more than that.

1163
00:53:31,420 --> 00:53:35,640
Speaker 2: Yes. Yeah. Not that that's an excuse. This is horror. Okay,

1164
00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:36,799
Speaker 2: here we go. All bad.

1165
00:53:38,480 --> 00:53:38,740
Speaker 1: Okay.

1166
00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:42,340
Speaker 3: This time, because of his record, though, the police fucking

1167
00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:45,940
Speaker 3: were like, we know who did this. They arrest Jesse

1168
00:53:46,020 --> 00:53:48,780
Speaker 3: at his home where they found blood on his clothes,

1169
00:53:49,080 --> 00:53:51,420
Speaker 3: scratches on his skin, and the sole of his boots

1170
00:53:51,560 --> 00:53:54,480
Speaker 3: matched the imprints left on the sand. And there was

1171
00:53:54,520 --> 00:53:56,560
Speaker 3: also marsh mud on his boots. And so when the

1172
00:53:56,580 --> 00:53:58,440
Speaker 3: police confronted him and asked him if he'd done it,

1173
00:53:58,520 --> 00:54:02,109
Speaker 3: he replied, I suppose so. Oh, nonplussed.

1174
00:54:02,230 --> 00:54:02,950
Speaker 2: I suppose so.

1175
00:54:04,810 --> 00:54:07,270
Speaker 3: His only request was that the police not tell his

1176
00:54:07,390 --> 00:54:09,710
Speaker 3: mother of his of the latest crime. So I think

1177
00:54:09,750 --> 00:54:13,069
Speaker 3: his mom was like crazy, probably religious and overprotective of him.

1178
00:54:13,090 --> 00:54:13,170
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1179
00:54:13,630 --> 00:54:17,879
Speaker 2: And, you know, that made him crazy, too. She also,

1180
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:19,839
Speaker 2: I bet, maybe had some guilt because the dad was

1181
00:54:19,880 --> 00:54:20,880
Speaker 2: so awful. Right.

1182
00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:24,400
Speaker 3: There's no way to correctly parent a child. I'm sorry

1183
00:54:24,460 --> 00:54:29,259
Speaker 3: to tell you guys. Georgia with parenting advice.

1184
00:54:30,550 --> 00:54:34,799
Speaker 2: She has cats. That equals one child. Right? That's what

1185
00:54:34,820 --> 00:54:36,320
Speaker 2: we agreed upon. One silent child.

1186
00:54:36,360 --> 00:54:41,600
Speaker 3: That's what we agreed on. A few days later, though,

1187
00:54:41,640 --> 00:54:46,210
Speaker 3: he takes back his confession, denies any wrongdoing, etc. So

1188
00:54:46,450 --> 00:54:50,670
Speaker 3: he's waiting trial. He's sitting in fucking jail waiting trial.

1189
00:54:51,530 --> 00:54:54,650
Speaker 3: And Ruth Pomeroy, his mommy fucking dearest.

1190
00:54:55,940 --> 00:54:59,620
Speaker 3: She continues to voraciously insist Jesse's innocent. She's forced to

1191
00:54:59,660 --> 00:55:05,920
Speaker 3: close her dress shop a month after Jesse's arrest because

1192
00:55:05,940 --> 00:55:09,299
Speaker 3: the public was pissed the fuck off, probably. And her

1193
00:55:09,340 --> 00:55:10,140
Speaker 3: shop's now vacant.

1194
00:55:10,989 --> 00:55:11,149
Speaker 4: Hi.

1195
00:55:11,170 --> 00:55:14,710
Speaker 3: How are you doing? Her shop's now vacant. I'm going

1196
00:55:14,730 --> 00:55:16,950
Speaker 3: to give you a clue. It's not a monkey that

1197
00:55:16,989 --> 00:55:17,310
Speaker 3: they find.

1198
00:55:18,830 --> 00:55:19,990
Speaker 2: Oh, no.

1199
00:55:20,010 --> 00:55:20,250
Speaker 5: Okay.

1200
00:55:20,730 --> 00:55:21,310
Speaker 2: Shop's vacant.

1201
00:55:21,390 --> 00:55:23,310
Speaker 3: It's rented out by the owner of a nearby grocery store.

1202
00:55:23,430 --> 00:55:25,850
Speaker 3: He starts renovations. Don't do that.

1203
00:55:26,969 --> 00:55:27,489
Speaker 2: Do it, though.

1204
00:55:27,690 --> 00:55:29,969
Speaker 3: In late July, a worker knocking down a wall in

1205
00:55:29,989 --> 00:55:33,489
Speaker 3: the cellar notices some bright fabric sticking out of a

1206
00:55:33,570 --> 00:55:35,180
Speaker 3: pile of ashes and rubbish.

1207
00:55:35,820 --> 00:55:36,200
Speaker 1: Rubbish.

1208
00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:39,460
Speaker 3: He reaches down and gives it a pull, and a

1209
00:55:39,560 --> 00:55:41,299
Speaker 3: child's skull rolls out.

1210
00:55:41,320 --> 00:55:50,439
Speaker 2: Ugh. For decades. Ay yi. The police were summoned. They're

1211
00:55:50,480 --> 00:55:53,760
Speaker 2: not called. They are summoned. They're not because there's no phones.

1212
00:55:54,760 --> 00:55:57,319
Speaker 2: The police have a long letter written to them that

1213
00:55:57,340 --> 00:55:59,700
Speaker 2: they received two months later. A tin can is held

1214
00:55:59,860 --> 00:56:03,320
Speaker 2: up with a string. The police are like... A line

1215
00:56:03,340 --> 00:56:09,200
Speaker 2: of children yelled down the street in great... What's that called? Oh, telephone?

1216
00:56:09,300 --> 00:56:12,009
Speaker 2: Telephone formation. No, it's not called that, though. Yeah, when

1217
00:56:12,030 --> 00:56:13,609
Speaker 2: you whisper into people's ears. Yeah, but there's no such

1218
00:56:13,630 --> 00:56:15,350
Speaker 2: thing as a telephone, so it's not called that.

1219
00:56:15,390 --> 00:56:15,589
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1220
00:56:16,530 --> 00:56:19,870
Speaker 2: Is this pre-telephone days? Isn't it? I don't know. Someone

1221
00:56:19,890 --> 00:56:23,660
Speaker 2: assigned a telephone person. A telephone scientist. We'd love to

1222
00:56:23,719 --> 00:56:24,879
Speaker 2: hear from you. Is that a thing?

1223
00:56:25,160 --> 00:56:27,950
Speaker 3: Email us. There's going to be some person. Actually, I

1224
00:56:28,010 --> 00:56:30,270
Speaker 3: am a telephone scientist and you're correct. Like it's going

1225
00:56:30,290 --> 00:56:31,290
Speaker 3: to be some sweet email.

1226
00:56:31,510 --> 00:56:33,730
Speaker 2: It's going to be... Not what we deserve. My name's

1227
00:56:33,790 --> 00:56:36,690
Speaker 2: Jan Edison, and my great-grandfather was Thomas Edison.

1228
00:56:36,710 --> 00:56:39,460
Speaker 3: Do you want a tour of my phone? Because everyone

1229
00:56:39,500 --> 00:56:41,900
Speaker 3: who emails us is nice. Like, we don't deserve how

1230
00:56:41,980 --> 00:56:42,819
Speaker 3: nice everyone is to us.

1231
00:56:42,860 --> 00:56:46,280
Speaker 2: No one attacks us. Never. Everyone's like, we think you're great.

1232
00:56:46,360 --> 00:56:49,280
Speaker 2: We get what you meant. And we forgive your stupidity.

1233
00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:52,299
Speaker 2: Here's the facts that you should be saying. Oh, God.

1234
00:56:52,340 --> 00:56:57,489
Speaker 2: We're so lucky. Okay. Police know... are pretty sure the

1235
00:56:57,510 --> 00:56:59,390
Speaker 2: skeleton belongs to. Because.

1236
00:56:59,910 --> 00:57:03,180
Speaker 3: Earlier that year, on March 18th, just six weeks after

1237
00:57:03,219 --> 00:57:06,200
Speaker 3: Jesse got out of that reformatory before his first murder

1238
00:57:06,320 --> 00:57:11,219
Speaker 3: of Horace, nine-year-old Katie Curran had disappeared.

1239
00:57:10,739 --> 00:57:12,950
Speaker 2: While running an errand in the neighborhood of the dress shop.

1240
00:57:13,610 --> 00:57:17,290
Speaker 3: The cops had searched the entire neighborhood, including the Pomeroy store,

1241
00:57:17,610 --> 00:57:19,930
Speaker 3: but stopped searching when another kid in the neighborhood told

1242
00:57:19,970 --> 00:57:23,930
Speaker 3: them that they'd seen a girl matching Katie's description get

1243
00:57:24,150 --> 00:57:25,150
Speaker 3: into a.

1244
00:57:25,200 --> 00:57:29,100
Speaker 2: Buggy with a strange man. Plus, they were like, Jesse...

1245
00:57:29,730 --> 00:57:33,130
Speaker 2: likes boys. So. Oh, right. It's not his MO. Right.

1246
00:57:33,780 --> 00:57:37,380
Speaker 3: So, but Katie's mother identifies the clothes that they found, um,

1247
00:57:38,240 --> 00:57:43,090
Speaker 3: as Katie's and an angry cat crowd gathers around the block.

1248
00:57:43,110 --> 00:57:46,470
Speaker 3: So they take Miss Palm, Mrs. Pomerantz Charles, the brother

1249
00:57:46,530 --> 00:57:48,630
Speaker 3: into custody for their safety. They ended up being there

1250
00:57:48,650 --> 00:57:49,650
Speaker 3: for like six fucking weeks.

1251
00:57:50,440 --> 00:57:53,670
Speaker 2: Whoa. Because people are just like, they've had it. Yeah.

1252
00:57:53,770 --> 00:57:55,530
Speaker 3: And they need to be witnesses in the trial, too.

1253
00:57:56,190 --> 00:57:58,690
Speaker 3: Jesse confesses to Katie's murder. He tells the chief of

1254
00:57:58,750 --> 00:58:00,740
Speaker 3: police that Katie had gone. So Katie had gone out

1255
00:58:00,780 --> 00:58:04,540
Speaker 3: that morning to buy a school thing, a school supply thing,

1256
00:58:05,440 --> 00:58:08,640
Speaker 3: but had gone into the Pomeroy store by mistake. She

1257
00:58:08,660 --> 00:58:10,979
Speaker 3: had asked Jesse if they had one. He was manning

1258
00:58:11,000 --> 00:58:12,960
Speaker 3: the counter alone. Remember how she was like, you guys

1259
00:58:12,980 --> 00:58:15,720
Speaker 3: got to work here. He lied and told her there

1260
00:58:15,760 --> 00:58:19,080
Speaker 3: was a store downstairs. And then he said that when

1261
00:58:19,120 --> 00:58:22,620
Speaker 3: she went downstairs, quote, I followed her, put my left

1262
00:58:22,740 --> 00:58:25,040
Speaker 3: arm around her neck, about her neck and my hand

1263
00:58:25,100 --> 00:58:27,840
Speaker 3: over her mouth. And with my knife in my right hand,

1264
00:58:27,880 --> 00:58:31,180
Speaker 3: I cut her throat. I then dragged her to and

1265
00:58:31,220 --> 00:58:34,360
Speaker 3: behind the water closet and put some stones and ashes

1266
00:58:34,440 --> 00:58:34,920
Speaker 3: on the body.

1267
00:58:36,410 --> 00:58:40,940
Speaker 2: So fucking crazy. It's so bad. And it is reminding

1268
00:58:40,960 --> 00:58:45,540
Speaker 2: me of The Alienist. Yeah. It's so parallel. It's amazing.

1269
00:58:45,560 --> 00:58:49,580
Speaker 3: Well, they go and interview him, remember, in his solitary

1270
00:58:49,620 --> 00:58:52,080
Speaker 3: confinement to try to find the killer in the show.

1271
00:58:52,100 --> 00:58:54,120
Speaker 2: That's right. Remember, that's why I found this. When he's

1272
00:58:54,140 --> 00:58:55,760
Speaker 2: on that chain and... Oh, my God. Yeah.

1273
00:58:55,780 --> 00:58:56,400
Speaker 1: That's right.

1274
00:58:56,700 --> 00:58:58,390
Speaker 2: Yeah. Guys, watch it.

1275
00:58:58,400 --> 00:59:04,160
Speaker 3: But Katie's body... Hatch did show signs that he had

1276
00:59:04,180 --> 00:59:06,240
Speaker 3: done more to her than he said. There had also

1277
00:59:06,260 --> 00:59:12,990
Speaker 3: been stab wounds and mutilation, much like the Millen kid. Later,

1278
00:59:13,140 --> 00:59:15,500
Speaker 3: when asked at an inquest why he'd done it, Jesse said,

1279
00:59:15,520 --> 00:59:19,560
Speaker 3: I don't know. I couldn't help it. It's here, said

1280
00:59:19,600 --> 00:59:22,620
Speaker 3: pointing to his head. It is here, he said while

1281
00:59:22,640 --> 00:59:23,500
Speaker 3: he pointed at his head.

1282
00:59:23,520 --> 00:59:23,580
Speaker 4: Oh.

1283
00:59:25,570 --> 00:59:29,080
Speaker 2: You said that twice to underline it. It's here.

1284
00:59:29,440 --> 00:59:30,460
Speaker 3: And that's not a quote.

1285
00:59:30,680 --> 00:59:33,560
Speaker 2: It is here. Which is so awkward.

1286
00:59:33,700 --> 00:59:33,939
Speaker 3: Okay.

1287
00:59:34,940 --> 00:59:36,390
Speaker 2: That's how people talk back then. I know.

1288
00:59:36,410 --> 00:59:40,669
Speaker 3: Especially in Boston. Especially in Boston. Very proper. Okay.

1289
00:59:41,680 --> 00:59:41,900
Speaker 2: OK.

1290
00:59:42,260 --> 00:59:46,180
Speaker 3: In December, Jesse's tried for the Millen murder and people

1291
00:59:46,220 --> 00:59:48,240
Speaker 3: are like, how the fuck did this happen? I guess

1292
00:59:48,260 --> 00:59:50,920
Speaker 3: this was not a normal thing. There had never been

1293
00:59:50,940 --> 00:59:53,280
Speaker 3: a boy serial killer before. He's the first fucking one

1294
00:59:53,820 --> 00:59:56,850
Speaker 3: in America. They wanted to know why he committed such atrocities.

1295
00:59:57,410 --> 01:00:00,870
Speaker 3: Tons of experts were hired and they all hypothesized what

1296
01:00:00,890 --> 01:00:01,590
Speaker 3: was wrong with him.

1297
01:00:02,660 --> 01:00:05,550
Speaker 2: People were like, it's crows back then. No one knew

1298
01:00:05,570 --> 01:00:07,530
Speaker 2: what the fuck was going on. It's the telephone. And

1299
01:00:07,570 --> 01:00:10,610
Speaker 2: that person was a witch and got drowned. It's these

1300
01:00:10,630 --> 01:00:13,110
Speaker 2: gas lamps they're trying to put into our homes. Exactly.

1301
01:00:13,150 --> 01:00:16,750
Speaker 2: There's no such thing as telephones. You're a witch.

1302
01:00:17,190 --> 01:00:21,070
Speaker 3: They ultimately, though, didn't think he was insane, just evil,

1303
01:00:21,270 --> 01:00:23,800
Speaker 3: and had no feelings for his victims and felt no

1304
01:00:23,860 --> 01:00:26,200
Speaker 3: remorse for any of his acts, which we all know

1305
01:00:26,240 --> 01:00:26,640
Speaker 3: that now.

1306
01:00:26,840 --> 01:00:30,900
Speaker 2: Come on. Um, and Ruth continues to fucking be like,

1307
01:00:30,960 --> 01:00:32,040
Speaker 2: he's innocent.

1308
01:00:32,140 --> 01:00:36,040
Speaker 3: And she was even like, uh, Katie's body was put

1309
01:00:36,060 --> 01:00:38,740
Speaker 3: in the cellar after she left the store by someone

1310
01:00:38,760 --> 01:00:40,940
Speaker 3: else to like frame her kid. She just wouldn't fucking

1311
01:00:40,980 --> 01:00:41,310
Speaker 3: buy it.

1312
01:00:41,420 --> 01:00:41,740
Speaker 2: Honey.

1313
01:00:41,760 --> 01:00:45,780
Speaker 3: I know, sweetie. The jury convicts Jesse on first degree

1314
01:00:45,820 --> 01:00:47,580
Speaker 3: murder with a recommendation of.

1315
01:00:47,620 --> 01:00:48,740
Speaker 2: Mercy because of his age.

1316
01:00:48,760 --> 01:00:51,590
Speaker 3: So he could have, they could have recommended death by hanging,

1317
01:00:51,630 --> 01:00:54,070
Speaker 3: but they were like, he's fucking 14 at this point.

1318
01:00:54,870 --> 01:00:58,360
Speaker 2: God. And so, but then the judge was like, nope.

1319
01:00:59,200 --> 01:01:02,580
Speaker 2: I sentenced him to be fucking hanged. Yep. Hanged.

1320
01:01:03,820 --> 01:01:06,860
Speaker 3: Uh, which, and, uh, everyone freaked out and was like,

1321
01:01:06,880 --> 01:01:10,770
Speaker 3: you can't hang a child. And so eventually his sentences

1322
01:01:10,850 --> 01:01:14,060
Speaker 3: commuted to life in solitary confinement. So on September 7th, 1876,

1323
01:01:14,050 --> 01:01:21,800
Speaker 3: just three months shy of his 17th birthday, uh, Okay,

1324
01:01:21,820 --> 01:01:23,660
Speaker 3: I was wrong about the age. Just three months shy

1325
01:01:23,680 --> 01:01:25,720
Speaker 3: of his 17th birthday, Jesse was taken to the state

1326
01:01:25,760 --> 01:01:29,530
Speaker 3: prison at Charlestown, where for the next 16 years, he

1327
01:01:29,590 --> 01:01:31,090
Speaker 3: lived in a 10 by 8 by 8 cell built

1328
01:01:31,110 --> 01:01:38,750
Speaker 3: in 1805. to How's the Insane. So you can't imagine

1329
01:01:38,830 --> 01:01:40,510
Speaker 3: it was fucking choice digs.

1330
01:01:41,170 --> 01:01:45,180
Speaker 2: And in that TV show, it's awful. It's like a dungeon, basically. Totally.

1331
01:01:45,220 --> 01:01:48,020
Speaker 2: And he's so fucking scary. How about that fucking actor

1332
01:01:48,060 --> 01:01:50,260
Speaker 2: who I didn't even think until this very moment was

1333
01:01:50,300 --> 01:01:53,060
Speaker 2: an actor because he was so scary in that part.

1334
01:01:53,440 --> 01:01:57,090
Speaker 2: Is he? Who is he? Who is he? Jesse Pomeroy.

1335
01:01:57,110 --> 01:01:59,310
Speaker 2: Great job, fictional Jesse Pomeroy.

1336
01:01:59,330 --> 01:01:59,850
Speaker 3: That's right.

1337
01:02:00,870 --> 01:02:02,689
Speaker 2: Okay, so he tries to escape all the time.

1338
01:02:02,790 --> 01:02:06,030
Speaker 3: Doesn't happen. But he also becomes a voracious reader, reads

1339
01:02:06,130 --> 01:02:08,530
Speaker 3: all 8,000 books in the prison library.

1340
01:02:08,550 --> 01:02:10,640
Speaker 2: Whoa. Which is like, you got time on your hand. Yeah,

1341
01:02:10,660 --> 01:02:13,460
Speaker 2: that's right. He learns French, German, Greek, Latin, all this

1342
01:02:13,500 --> 01:02:17,880
Speaker 2: other shit. And he becomes... What? And then he becomes

1343
01:02:17,920 --> 01:02:20,700
Speaker 2: Hannibal Lecter. Yeah. I mean, what the fuck?

1344
01:02:20,720 --> 01:02:21,300
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1345
01:02:21,480 --> 01:02:25,440
Speaker 2: Yeah. That's also insanely tragic. Isn't it? Because if his

1346
01:02:25,620 --> 01:02:29,040
Speaker 2: fucking father left him alone, he could have been, in

1347
01:02:29,080 --> 01:02:32,810
Speaker 2: my theory, a sociopath who doesn't hurt people. Right. But

1348
01:02:32,890 --> 01:02:35,689
Speaker 2: who was incredibly intelligent and then just kind of didn't

1349
01:02:35,730 --> 01:02:37,170
Speaker 2: care if he saw bad things happen.

1350
01:02:37,550 --> 01:02:39,280
Speaker 3: Or it's like, too, that you think, like, if he

1351
01:02:39,320 --> 01:02:43,420
Speaker 3: hadn't had these oddities about him that kids didn't fucking

1352
01:02:43,600 --> 01:02:46,560
Speaker 3: mercilessly bully him about, he wouldn't have been so angry

1353
01:02:46,600 --> 01:02:50,420
Speaker 3: and have so much anger to get out on children

1354
01:02:50,440 --> 01:02:52,240
Speaker 3: that were smaller than him. You know, they took it

1355
01:02:52,280 --> 01:02:54,580
Speaker 3: out on him. Whatever was going on in those kids' house,

1356
01:02:54,700 --> 01:02:55,960
Speaker 3: he took it out on smaller children.

1357
01:02:55,980 --> 01:02:56,060
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1358
01:02:56,140 --> 01:02:56,300
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1359
01:02:56,900 --> 01:02:59,760
Speaker 2: But the difference is like teasing and being mean is

1360
01:02:59,780 --> 01:03:02,570
Speaker 2: one thing. But what this guy did was like, he's

1361
01:03:02,610 --> 01:03:03,950
Speaker 2: a psychopath. Totally. Yeah.

1362
01:03:04,590 --> 01:03:08,830
Speaker 3: I mean, between home and school, though, he never had

1363
01:03:08,870 --> 01:03:12,330
Speaker 3: a moment of not being because they didn't just tease him.

1364
01:03:12,370 --> 01:03:14,230
Speaker 3: I'm sure they beat him up and shit. I'm not

1365
01:03:14,310 --> 01:03:17,950
Speaker 3: defending a fucking psych, like a serial killer.

1366
01:03:17,970 --> 01:03:21,190
Speaker 2: No, no, I know. But you are arguing nature versus nurture.

1367
01:03:21,350 --> 01:03:22,350
Speaker 2: I am never.

1368
01:03:22,370 --> 01:03:25,310
Speaker 3: I am doubling up on my birth control tonight because

1369
01:03:25,370 --> 01:03:26,990
Speaker 3: I am never having fucking children.

1370
01:03:27,010 --> 01:03:31,570
Speaker 2: Just take two extra. It'll be fine.

1371
01:03:32,270 --> 01:03:35,780
Speaker 3: I do think nature versus nurture. I think nature and nurture,

1372
01:03:36,140 --> 01:03:39,930
Speaker 3: but I don't think you can have... I don't think.

1373
01:03:40,130 --> 01:03:41,210
Speaker 2: All right. Anyways.

1374
01:03:41,350 --> 01:03:44,450
Speaker 3: How many semesters of psychology did I take at community college,

1375
01:03:44,470 --> 01:03:45,150
Speaker 3: do you suppose?

1376
01:03:46,130 --> 01:03:47,470
Speaker 2: Did you do half and then drop out?

1377
01:03:47,720 --> 01:03:50,760
Speaker 3: I probably took level one like three times and dropped

1378
01:03:50,840 --> 01:03:51,960
Speaker 3: out each time.

1379
01:03:51,980 --> 01:03:54,620
Speaker 2: You heard that story of the guy that got the

1380
01:03:54,820 --> 01:03:57,460
Speaker 2: fencing sword up his nose and touched his frontal lobe.

1381
01:03:57,520 --> 01:03:58,700
Speaker 3: Everyone loved that.

1382
01:03:58,780 --> 01:04:01,260
Speaker 2: Lost his long-term memory or whatever. Right.

1383
01:04:01,280 --> 01:04:04,340
Speaker 3: It was very fascinating. Phineas Gage.

1384
01:04:04,360 --> 01:04:05,870
Speaker 2: Okay. Is that him? Yeah.

1385
01:04:08,160 --> 01:04:09,120
Speaker 1: Okay.

1386
01:04:09,340 --> 01:04:11,520
Speaker 2: Wait, Phineas Gage is the guy that had the full-on

1387
01:04:11,620 --> 01:04:13,960
Speaker 2: railroad tie in his head, though. What were you talking about?

1388
01:04:14,220 --> 01:04:18,240
Speaker 2: There's one guy that got a fencing sword that went

1389
01:04:18,260 --> 01:04:20,510
Speaker 2: up his nose, touched his frontal lobe, and then every

1390
01:04:20,530 --> 01:04:22,550
Speaker 2: time you walked in the door, he'd be like, hi,

1391
01:04:22,570 --> 01:04:24,310
Speaker 2: good to see you. And then you'd leave, and one

1392
01:04:24,350 --> 01:04:25,850
Speaker 2: minute later, and he'd be like, oh my god, hi,

1393
01:04:25,870 --> 01:04:27,510
Speaker 2: good to see you. That must have been level two,

1394
01:04:27,530 --> 01:04:29,110
Speaker 2: because I don't know that guy.

1395
01:04:29,170 --> 01:04:31,300
Speaker 3: Karen, you must have gone further than me.

1396
01:04:31,430 --> 01:04:33,880
Speaker 2: But also, I don't think we even have to say

1397
01:04:33,920 --> 01:04:39,570
Speaker 2: this anymore, could be completely wrong about this. but we aren't. Okay. Greek, Latin,

1398
01:04:39,650 --> 01:04:40,090
Speaker 2: et cetera.

1399
01:04:40,450 --> 01:04:42,790
Speaker 3: Oh, and he becomes obsessed with learning about law in

1400
01:04:42,810 --> 01:04:44,990
Speaker 3: an attempt to get himself the fuck out of prison.

1401
01:04:45,010 --> 01:04:45,650
Speaker 4: Wow.

1402
01:04:45,690 --> 01:04:47,970
Speaker 2: All this shit happens, but it never works, obviously.

1403
01:04:49,550 --> 01:04:53,090
Speaker 3: Later, a commission of three psychiatrists, maybe our fucking dude

1404
01:04:53,110 --> 01:04:53,820
Speaker 3: from The Alienists.

1405
01:04:53,880 --> 01:04:55,120
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, that's right.

1406
01:04:55,260 --> 01:05:00,120
Speaker 3: And a prison physician studied him. And in 1914, after

1407
01:05:00,160 --> 01:05:03,000
Speaker 3: he'd spent 38 years in solitary, they found him to

1408
01:05:03,040 --> 01:05:07,860
Speaker 3: be sane and intelligent, but a cold, paranoid manipulator, utterly

1409
01:05:07,920 --> 01:05:12,520
Speaker 3: obsessed with his pardon. So the only person who visited

1410
01:05:12,540 --> 01:05:15,470
Speaker 3: him was his mother, who visited him every month until

1411
01:05:15,510 --> 01:05:19,740
Speaker 3: her death. around 1915 wow and then in the late

1412
01:05:20,300 --> 01:05:24,450
Speaker 3: 1920s jesse was the state's oldest prisoner whoa which is like.

1413
01:05:24,490 --> 01:05:26,690
Speaker 2: And you could there's photos there's like photographs of him

1414
01:05:27,010 --> 01:05:27,470
Speaker 2: he looks.

1415
01:05:27,310 --> 01:05:31,230
Speaker 3: Like just an old man yeah because he was just

1416
01:05:31,290 --> 01:05:35,170
Speaker 3: an old right man um i wonder what would happen

1417
01:05:35,190 --> 01:05:37,530
Speaker 3: if they had let him out he would have murdered

1418
01:05:37,570 --> 01:05:40,220
Speaker 3: people immediately go kill a child and albert fish would

1419
01:05:40,260 --> 01:05:42,680
Speaker 3: be like what's up real we're gonna be roomies i've

1420
01:05:42,720 --> 01:05:46,160
Speaker 3: got your needles this is a fucking sitcom yeah Got

1421
01:05:46,180 --> 01:05:51,660
Speaker 3: your needles. Okay.

1422
01:05:51,780 --> 01:05:51,940
Speaker 2: Okay.

1423
01:05:52,000 --> 01:05:54,400
Speaker 3: In 1916, 41 years into his fucking sentence. So he's

1424
01:05:54,420 --> 01:05:56,380
Speaker 3: like double the time he was alive.

1425
01:05:56,400 --> 01:05:57,220
Speaker 2: Yeah. Or out.

1426
01:05:58,080 --> 01:06:01,880
Speaker 3: Right. You know what I mean? Jesse's solitary confinement is lifted.

1427
01:06:01,960 --> 01:06:06,720
Speaker 3: He had spent the longest stretch in solitary confinement, second

1428
01:06:07,030 --> 01:06:09,030
Speaker 3: only to The Birdman of Alcatraz.

1429
01:06:09,050 --> 01:06:11,890
Speaker 2: Oh, that's right. Yeah. The Birdman of Alcatraz is a

1430
01:06:11,890 --> 01:06:14,189
Speaker 2: good movie by the by. I should watch it again.

1431
01:06:14,210 --> 01:06:19,530
Speaker 2: Clint Eastwood, Alcatraz. San Francisco. Birds. What more could you want? Listen,

1432
01:06:19,550 --> 01:06:22,830
Speaker 2: we're offering you so much. Look at that movie.

1433
01:06:24,050 --> 01:06:25,850
Speaker 3: Okay, we're coming to an end here, guys.

1434
01:06:25,910 --> 01:06:32,040
Speaker 2: Calm down. In 1929... Age 92. And then... He wrote

1435
01:06:32,080 --> 01:06:33,820
Speaker 2: books and shit, too. In 19... And I'm going to

1436
01:06:33,860 --> 01:06:35,520
Speaker 2: read you one now.

1437
01:06:35,540 --> 01:06:39,720
Speaker 3: Yes. In 1929, 71-year-old Jesse Pomeroy is removed from the

1438
01:06:39,760 --> 01:06:43,730
Speaker 3: general population at Charlestown, taken by automobile, his first and

1439
01:06:43,950 --> 01:06:48,310
Speaker 3: only ever fucking automobile ride... taken by auto meal auto

1440
01:06:48,330 --> 01:06:52,630
Speaker 3: meal yeah to an auto meal to an automatic uh

1441
01:06:52,670 --> 01:06:57,570
Speaker 3: to auto bridge water prison farm for medical care uh

1442
01:06:57,650 --> 01:07:00,140
Speaker 3: first only car ride first time being outside the prison

1443
01:07:00,180 --> 01:07:03,460
Speaker 3: in about 55 fucking years jesus and everyone was like

1444
01:07:03,540 --> 01:07:06,500
Speaker 3: he seemed non-fucking-plussed by it he just didn't give a

1445
01:07:06,520 --> 01:07:08,640
Speaker 3: shit didn't give a shit which is like fair enough

1446
01:07:08,680 --> 01:07:11,820
Speaker 3: your brain at that point has to be mush two

1447
01:07:11,840 --> 01:07:16,520
Speaker 3: years later After 58 years in prison, almost all of

1448
01:07:16,610 --> 01:07:19,890
Speaker 3: it spent in solitary confinement, Jesse Pomeroy, the boy fiend,

1449
01:07:19,990 --> 01:07:25,290
Speaker 3: dies at Bridgewater. He was dismissed in the press as, quote,

1450
01:07:25,310 --> 01:07:28,910
Speaker 3: the most friendless person in the world and, quote, a psychopath.

1451
01:07:31,430 --> 01:07:34,340
Speaker 3: His final wishes were that his body be cremated and

1452
01:07:34,480 --> 01:07:34,840
Speaker 3: his ashes.

1453
01:07:34,740 --> 01:07:36,370
Speaker 2: Scattered to the four winds. Wow.

1454
01:07:36,380 --> 01:07:36,450
Speaker 4: Wow.

1455
01:07:42,580 --> 01:07:45,180
Speaker 2: That's the story of boy fiend Jesse Pomeroy. Fuck.

1456
01:07:45,800 --> 01:07:46,340
Speaker 3: Boston.

1457
01:07:47,140 --> 01:07:50,500
Speaker 2: Sorry. That is the most nutso story. I know. I

1458
01:07:50,560 --> 01:07:53,100
Speaker 2: tried to do my best. I've not. It was great. Okay.

1459
01:07:53,820 --> 01:07:56,800
Speaker 2: It was fresh and new for me. I just wanted

1460
01:07:56,820 --> 01:07:58,200
Speaker 2: a chance to tell you. The funniest page of this

1461
01:07:58,260 --> 01:08:04,110
Speaker 2: podcast where it's always a new story for me. Jesus Christ.

1462
01:08:04,570 --> 01:08:05,750
Speaker 2: I pulled something out of my nose.

1463
01:08:06,850 --> 01:08:08,530
Speaker 3: I just really wanted to tell you you were right

1464
01:08:08,690 --> 01:08:11,990
Speaker 3: about the alienists. I kept going back to that. I'm like,

1465
01:08:12,010 --> 01:08:13,120
Speaker 3: why are you doing this story?

1466
01:08:13,160 --> 01:08:13,860
Speaker 2: It's so horrible.

1467
01:08:13,880 --> 01:08:15,140
Speaker 3: And it's like, Karen will like.

1468
01:08:15,220 --> 01:08:17,100
Speaker 2: The start of it. A hundred percent. I like the

1469
01:08:17,140 --> 01:08:20,080
Speaker 2: whole thing. But also because I feel like those are

1470
01:08:20,100 --> 01:08:22,590
Speaker 2: the stories. Those are the stories I like to talk

1471
01:08:22,610 --> 01:08:25,830
Speaker 2: about the most because it's long, long ago. So we

1472
01:08:25,850 --> 01:08:28,210
Speaker 2: don't have to be as sad as we normally feel. Right.

1473
01:08:28,390 --> 01:08:33,670
Speaker 2: Even though it's awful. And then there's that interest of, like,

1474
01:08:33,750 --> 01:08:36,390
Speaker 2: the way things were set up. This was, like, probably

1475
01:08:37,050 --> 01:08:40,849
Speaker 2: right when, like, police forces began. It's all that kind

1476
01:08:40,890 --> 01:08:43,970
Speaker 2: of stuff where everyone was learning. And I'm sure no

1477
01:08:44,130 --> 01:08:46,929
Speaker 2: one was going to go, oh, yeah, a 12-year-old's killing

1478
01:08:46,970 --> 01:08:49,970
Speaker 2: these kids. Like, no one. I'm sure they were like,

1479
01:08:50,070 --> 01:08:52,189
Speaker 2: a wolf is loose in Boston or whatever.

1480
01:08:52,210 --> 01:08:54,530
Speaker 3: I mean, I didn't get into how fucking bananas the

1481
01:08:54,570 --> 01:08:56,229
Speaker 3: press went over this at the time. Yeah.

1482
01:08:57,260 --> 01:08:58,600
Speaker 2: It was unprecedented.

1483
01:08:59,020 --> 01:09:01,160
Speaker 3: And I think stories like this and fucked up stories

1484
01:09:01,180 --> 01:09:03,639
Speaker 3: like The Candyman and shit are like important because you.

1485
01:09:03,560 --> 01:09:04,139
Speaker 2: Can't just like.

1486
01:09:05,020 --> 01:09:07,840
Speaker 3: You have to, this exists and this is what happened.

1487
01:09:07,860 --> 01:09:09,900
Speaker 3: And we, you know, you have to, I don't have

1488
01:09:09,920 --> 01:09:12,679
Speaker 3: to tell you exactly what he did to his victims,

1489
01:09:12,740 --> 01:09:15,380
Speaker 3: but I, but it's a crazy fucking story.

1490
01:09:15,580 --> 01:09:19,360
Speaker 2: And it's a real thing that this is a human condition,

1491
01:09:19,380 --> 01:09:22,590
Speaker 2: even though it's extreme and rare. This is something people,

1492
01:09:22,870 --> 01:09:24,130
Speaker 2: human beings can do.

1493
01:09:24,330 --> 01:09:24,550
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1494
01:09:24,810 --> 01:09:26,670
Speaker 2: Which people have been in denial about. Right.

1495
01:09:26,689 --> 01:09:28,390
Speaker 3: Which is why we're obsessed with true crime is that

1496
01:09:28,630 --> 01:09:32,120
Speaker 3: we can't believe that humans are capable of this. So

1497
01:09:32,140 --> 01:09:33,820
Speaker 3: we want to know as much as possible because we're

1498
01:09:33,880 --> 01:09:34,929
Speaker 3: so compounded by it.

1499
01:09:35,020 --> 01:09:35,180
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1500
01:09:35,320 --> 01:09:37,800
Speaker 3: And so you can't skip over the really, really worst ones.

1501
01:09:38,490 --> 01:09:41,590
Speaker 3: Because those happen too. I mean, you can if you want.

1502
01:09:41,610 --> 01:09:43,810
Speaker 2: People are tuning in for that shit. Nobody wants that.

1503
01:09:44,110 --> 01:09:46,110
Speaker 2: Everyone's like, tell me the worst, please.

1504
01:09:46,130 --> 01:09:47,689
Speaker 3: Well, I was just thinking like all the people who

1505
01:09:47,710 --> 01:09:51,189
Speaker 3: are like, I have a baby boy and I can't,

1506
01:09:51,450 --> 01:09:53,870
Speaker 3: I can't listen to this stuff. And I'm like, all right, well,

1507
01:09:53,910 --> 01:09:56,840
Speaker 3: I have two baby nephews and I want to, I

1508
01:09:56,880 --> 01:09:59,720
Speaker 3: want to know about this shit. I'm fascinated. It horrifies me.

1509
01:09:59,920 --> 01:10:06,320
Speaker 2: I want. We all know babies. Quit bragging everybody. with

1510
01:10:06,360 --> 01:10:10,760
Speaker 2: that on their shirt. We all know babies. Quit holding

1511
01:10:10,780 --> 01:10:16,189
Speaker 2: your baby friendships over my head. I like what I like. Enough.

1512
01:10:17,110 --> 01:10:17,750
Speaker 3: Oh, wow.

1513
01:10:21,610 --> 01:10:23,760
Speaker 2: Okay, we're back. Are there any updates for this one?

1514
01:10:23,920 --> 01:10:26,900
Speaker 1: There are no updates, but there are some books written

1515
01:10:26,939 --> 01:10:31,370
Speaker 1: about him, one by him, an autobiography, which is very surprising.

1516
01:10:31,590 --> 01:10:31,810
Speaker 2: Yes.

1517
01:10:32,189 --> 01:10:36,250
Speaker 1: And a documentary called Jesse Pomeroy, The Boston Boy Fiend,

1518
01:10:36,310 --> 01:10:37,710
Speaker 1: which I haven't seen it. It looks like it's an

1519
01:10:37,810 --> 01:10:42,630
Speaker 1: upcoming independent documentary. So look out for that.

1520
01:10:43,010 --> 01:10:43,549
Speaker 2: That's cool.

1521
01:10:43,570 --> 01:10:48,400
Speaker 1: Very, very interesting. No other updates. So let's get into

1522
01:10:48,450 --> 01:10:51,960
Speaker 1: Karen's story about Ise Sagawa.

1523
01:10:58,770 --> 01:11:02,920
Speaker 2: Mine is another one of these stories, interestingly, that's so famous,

1524
01:11:03,160 --> 01:11:07,260
Speaker 2: I had to contact Stephen, because I was like, how

1525
01:11:07,300 --> 01:11:09,349
Speaker 2: did we not do this yet? And as I read it,

1526
01:11:09,380 --> 01:11:12,080
Speaker 2: I was like, I could hear your voice saying it.

1527
01:11:12,140 --> 01:11:14,100
Speaker 2: So I was like, this could be, I could be

1528
01:11:14,140 --> 01:11:19,790
Speaker 2: making a huge mistake. It's the story of Ise Sagawa,

1529
01:11:20,110 --> 01:11:24,690
Speaker 2: the Japanese cannibal who walks free. Wow. Do you know?

1530
01:11:24,710 --> 01:11:27,410
Speaker 2: I don't. And I know if I would have known

1531
01:11:27,450 --> 01:11:31,530
Speaker 2: if you'd done this. Get ready. To fucking scream. On

1532
01:11:31,850 --> 01:11:35,270
Speaker 2: the night of June 11th, 1981. By the way, Stephen

1533
01:11:35,290 --> 01:11:40,530
Speaker 2: helped me with most of this research with the chronology today.

1534
01:11:40,570 --> 01:11:44,389
Speaker 2: Thank you, Stephen. But then I also watched the beginning

1535
01:11:44,410 --> 01:11:48,269
Speaker 2: of an amazing documentary from Channel 4, Britain's Channel 4,

1536
01:11:48,270 --> 01:11:51,830
Speaker 2: a channel that makes incredible documentaries for TV called And

1537
01:11:51,870 --> 01:11:53,840
Speaker 2: there was a really old one that they had made

1538
01:11:54,040 --> 01:11:57,160
Speaker 2: about this guy. And it was called Excuse Me for Living,

1539
01:11:57,180 --> 01:12:00,080
Speaker 2: which is the name of one of the books he

1540
01:12:00,140 --> 01:12:00,820
Speaker 2: ended up writing.

1541
01:12:00,840 --> 01:12:02,870
Speaker 3: That's a great name.

1542
01:12:02,930 --> 01:12:05,769
Speaker 2: Isn't it the best? But then you when you find

1543
01:12:05,850 --> 01:12:08,290
Speaker 2: out what. I don't want him to own it. I

1544
01:12:08,330 --> 01:12:12,469
Speaker 2: know it's so good, but. It really goes crazy in

1545
01:12:12,520 --> 01:12:15,910
Speaker 2: depth on his side of things and kind of like

1546
01:12:16,229 --> 01:12:20,090
Speaker 2: whatever his experience. But it's really, really fascinating and really

1547
01:12:20,150 --> 01:12:22,370
Speaker 2: well put together and very old. It looks like you're

1548
01:12:22,410 --> 01:12:24,519
Speaker 2: watching footage from like the 50s. I love it.

1549
01:12:24,550 --> 01:12:26,729
Speaker 3: The older, the better, because then they can't like shit

1550
01:12:27,050 --> 01:12:31,870
Speaker 3: doesn't get like clouded and facts don't get published. unfacted

1551
01:12:32,170 --> 01:12:33,880
Speaker 3: yes let me hear I don't know anything about.

1552
01:12:33,740 --> 01:12:36,940
Speaker 2: It okay cool also in this documentary there's British people

1553
01:12:37,020 --> 01:12:40,640
Speaker 2: from what look like the 70s always a joy there's

1554
01:12:40,720 --> 01:12:44,070
Speaker 2: people named Colin with with wiry crazy hair that's going

1555
01:12:44,110 --> 01:12:47,050
Speaker 2: over to one side eyebrows yes there's a lot of

1556
01:12:47,189 --> 01:12:51,130
Speaker 2: action a lot of tweed love it highly recommend Okay,

1557
01:12:51,330 --> 01:12:55,320
Speaker 2: so on the night of June 11th, 1981, 25-year-old Dutch

1558
01:12:55,380 --> 01:12:59,920
Speaker 2: student Renée Hardeweld was studying at the Sorbonne in Paris,

1559
01:13:01,000 --> 01:13:05,290
Speaker 2: and she arrived at her classmate's flat thinking she was

1560
01:13:05,350 --> 01:13:09,390
Speaker 2: there to help him translate some German poetry for him.

1561
01:13:09,450 --> 01:13:12,990
Speaker 3: Never trust a German poet.

1562
01:13:14,430 --> 01:13:15,110
Speaker 1: There you go.

1563
01:13:16,020 --> 01:13:21,680
Speaker 2: She met the small, quiet 32-year-old Japanese student in one

1564
01:13:21,720 --> 01:13:25,979
Speaker 2: of their classes that they had together. She noticed he

1565
01:13:26,020 --> 01:13:31,400
Speaker 2: was isolated at the French university. He seemed awkward. He

1566
01:13:31,540 --> 01:13:36,330
Speaker 2: was slightly odd. He was very small. He was 4'9. Wow.

1567
01:13:36,630 --> 01:13:40,890
Speaker 2: So she felt compassion. Him being alone in a foreign city,

1568
01:13:41,900 --> 01:13:44,020
Speaker 2: she could empathize with. So when a group of her

1569
01:13:44,060 --> 01:13:47,080
Speaker 2: classmates made dinner plans, she invited him along.

1570
01:13:47,890 --> 01:13:48,970
Speaker 3: She's a sweet baby angel.

1571
01:13:49,150 --> 01:13:52,450
Speaker 2: Right. They had a long conversation that night on a

1572
01:13:52,610 --> 01:13:57,450
Speaker 2: full range of topics. And overall, for everybody, it was

1573
01:13:57,510 --> 01:14:01,590
Speaker 2: a success. So soon after, he asked Renee for help

1574
01:14:02,229 --> 01:14:05,230
Speaker 2: translating the German poetry that he had been struggling with.

1575
01:14:05,330 --> 01:14:07,950
Speaker 2: So she went over to his apartment to work on

1576
01:14:07,970 --> 01:14:10,910
Speaker 2: it with him. Go to a public place. Well, she

1577
01:14:10,950 --> 01:14:12,840
Speaker 2: thought they'd already hung. I know.

1578
01:14:12,960 --> 01:14:16,620
Speaker 3: I know. But like, I'm just saying. He was very small.

1579
01:14:16,640 --> 01:14:16,760
Speaker 4: Never.

1580
01:14:18,040 --> 01:14:20,320
Speaker 2: She's like, he's pocket-sized. There's no threat here.

1581
01:14:20,340 --> 01:14:21,439
Speaker 3: Public place.

1582
01:14:22,000 --> 01:14:24,519
Speaker 2: So the first night she goes over to help him

1583
01:14:24,580 --> 01:14:29,120
Speaker 2: translate his German poetry, the night ends very abruptly and oddly.

1584
01:14:29,880 --> 01:14:32,580
Speaker 2: Sends her a letter saying, sorry about everything last night.

1585
01:14:33,220 --> 01:14:35,540
Speaker 2: Can you please come back over tonight? I really need

1586
01:14:35,560 --> 01:14:37,690
Speaker 2: this help, and I would really appreciate it. So she

1587
01:14:37,700 --> 01:14:40,059
Speaker 2: goes back over, and that's the night of June 11th.

1588
01:14:40,090 --> 01:14:41,370
Speaker 3: Okay.

1589
01:14:42,830 --> 01:14:47,630
Speaker 2: So... She feels like she gets that this guy might

1590
01:14:47,650 --> 01:14:53,030
Speaker 2: be uncomfortable, maybe uncomfortable around women or whatever. So she's like,

1591
01:14:53,229 --> 01:14:55,480
Speaker 2: it's fine. She goes back over. She sits down at

1592
01:14:55,520 --> 01:15:00,300
Speaker 2: his desk, which leaves her with her back to the room.

1593
01:15:01,060 --> 01:15:05,059
Speaker 2: And as she is looking over the homework that he

1594
01:15:05,100 --> 01:15:07,400
Speaker 2: needs help with, he walks up behind her with a

1595
01:15:07,460 --> 01:15:09,460
Speaker 2: gun with a silencer on it and shoots her in

1596
01:15:09,500 --> 01:15:14,040
Speaker 2: the back of the head. Holy shit. He immediately faints. Oh,

1597
01:15:14,080 --> 01:15:17,380
Speaker 2: my God. When he wakes up, he has sex with

1598
01:15:17,400 --> 01:15:24,250
Speaker 2: her corpse and then tries to eat her. Because, it

1599
01:15:24,870 --> 01:15:28,709
Speaker 2: turned out, he was not a awkward.

1600
01:15:28,729 --> 01:15:30,929
Speaker 4: Four foot nine.

1601
01:15:31,530 --> 01:15:32,370
Speaker 2: He was four foot nine.

1602
01:15:32,390 --> 01:15:32,830
Speaker 3: I know.

1603
01:15:33,070 --> 01:15:37,049
Speaker 2: But he was not a tiny, powerless, awkward little man.

1604
01:15:37,470 --> 01:15:39,850
Speaker 2: He had been planning to kill her for quite some time. Oh,

1605
01:15:40,210 --> 01:15:45,760
Speaker 2: my God. Because... He wanted to eat her. What? The

1606
01:15:45,780 --> 01:15:49,320
Speaker 2: man's name was Ise Sagawa, and he had a lifelong

1607
01:15:49,460 --> 01:15:53,719
Speaker 2: obsession with cannibalism. He was born in 1949 to wealthy

1608
01:15:53,760 --> 01:15:54,900
Speaker 2: parents in Kobe, Japan.

1609
01:15:54,920 --> 01:15:56,049
Speaker 3: He was.

1610
01:15:57,310 --> 01:16:00,850
Speaker 2: Very premature, so premature that when his father held him

1611
01:16:00,870 --> 01:16:02,979
Speaker 2: for the first time, he held him in the palm

1612
01:16:02,990 --> 01:16:07,700
Speaker 2: of his hand. Oh, gosh. That tiny. That's so sad. Yeah.

1613
01:16:08,120 --> 01:16:11,060
Speaker 2: His strict but loving parents had another son one year

1614
01:16:11,120 --> 01:16:15,000
Speaker 2: later and raised them as twins because Issei was so

1615
01:16:15,120 --> 01:16:18,160
Speaker 2: small that he, being the older brother, looked like the

1616
01:16:18,220 --> 01:16:22,750
Speaker 2: younger brother. And as his brother grew up normally and fully,

1617
01:16:23,330 --> 01:16:27,570
Speaker 2: he was very skinny. He just like he just was tiny.

1618
01:16:28,210 --> 01:16:30,330
Speaker 2: And he was very, very self-conscious of it from a

1619
01:16:30,430 --> 01:16:35,710
Speaker 2: very early age. Aren't we all so fucking self-fucking conscious

1620
01:16:35,729 --> 01:16:37,130
Speaker 2: of our bodies at all times?

1621
01:16:37,170 --> 01:16:38,889
Speaker 3: And from a very early age.

1622
01:16:39,110 --> 01:16:42,420
Speaker 2: I'm watching this documentary and I'm like. it would be

1623
01:16:42,540 --> 01:16:45,740
Speaker 2: great to be tiny, skinny and four foot nine. Isn't

1624
01:16:45,760 --> 01:16:47,200
Speaker 2: that always the fuck?

1625
01:16:47,240 --> 01:16:50,890
Speaker 3: We're all now at this moment in time, just learning

1626
01:16:51,120 --> 01:16:58,630
Speaker 3: radical self-immolation acceptance. Excuse me. I've had two cans of

1627
01:16:58,930 --> 01:17:00,030
Speaker 3: fucking sparkling wine.

1628
01:17:00,110 --> 01:17:04,979
Speaker 2: If we could just learn to spontaneously combust ourselves into

1629
01:17:05,020 --> 01:17:05,540
Speaker 2: the stratosphere.

1630
01:17:05,560 --> 01:17:06,559
Speaker 3: Think of all the weight you.

1631
01:17:09,720 --> 01:17:11,120
Speaker 2: Just particles on fire.

1632
01:17:11,140 --> 01:17:11,540
Speaker 3: That's right.

1633
01:17:11,860 --> 01:17:16,960
Speaker 2: Okay. So he is obsessed with the fact he repeatedly

1634
01:17:17,000 --> 01:17:19,660
Speaker 2: in these documentaries talks about himself being ugly, being tiny,

1635
01:17:19,700 --> 01:17:24,670
Speaker 2: and being skinny. And also oddly, and they have... They

1636
01:17:24,710 --> 01:17:28,390
Speaker 2: have home movie footage in this Channel 4 documentary of

1637
01:17:28,850 --> 01:17:31,160
Speaker 2: his uncle used to come to their house and they

1638
01:17:31,180 --> 01:17:32,960
Speaker 2: would put on a play where the uncle played a

1639
01:17:33,200 --> 01:17:36,599
Speaker 2: man-eating giant. And the two little boys would play princes

1640
01:17:37,020 --> 01:17:39,189
Speaker 2: that he would, the giant would then grab up, put

1641
01:17:39,229 --> 01:17:42,190
Speaker 2: into a pot and eat and cook alive and eat.

1642
01:17:43,330 --> 01:17:47,650
Speaker 2: I have fucking chills. Really? That's creepy. Yeah, you have

1643
01:17:47,689 --> 01:17:49,870
Speaker 2: to see it. And he, in the documentary, when he

1644
01:17:49,930 --> 01:17:53,379
Speaker 2: talks about it, kind of makes this face like, why

1645
01:17:53,410 --> 01:17:58,160
Speaker 2: did he do that? Wait, they're interviewing him? Yes, dude. Yes.

1646
01:17:58,660 --> 01:17:59,260
Speaker 3: Okay, go on.

1647
01:17:59,439 --> 01:18:03,060
Speaker 2: It's part of how disturbing this story is, is he

1648
01:18:03,100 --> 01:18:07,880
Speaker 2: basically becomes famous for being a sexual psychopath. How have

1649
01:18:07,939 --> 01:18:09,460
Speaker 2: I never heard of this? Go on. Okay.

1650
01:18:10,380 --> 01:18:10,520
Speaker 3: So.

1651
01:18:11,439 --> 01:18:15,420
Speaker 2: Um, so he attributes that experience, but he also was he,

1652
01:18:15,700 --> 01:18:18,840
Speaker 2: so he became obsessed with this idea of man eating giants,

1653
01:18:18,979 --> 01:18:22,320
Speaker 2: monsters that could eat men, human beings, the idea of

1654
01:18:22,460 --> 01:18:25,460
Speaker 2: eating human flesh to the point where in first grade,

1655
01:18:25,560 --> 01:18:30,500
Speaker 2: he asked his teacher, um, about the moral repercussions of

1656
01:18:30,680 --> 01:18:34,400
Speaker 2: eating human flesh. Imagine now imagine those chills that.

1657
01:18:34,340 --> 01:18:34,680
Speaker 1: You would get.

1658
01:18:34,700 --> 01:18:37,560
Speaker 2: How old is a first grader? Seven. Okay.

1659
01:18:37,860 --> 01:18:41,070
Speaker 3: I'm looking at my seven year old nephew. Hey, Auntie Georgia.

1660
01:18:41,070 --> 01:18:43,090
Speaker 3: What's your stance on.

1661
01:18:42,880 --> 01:18:48,189
Speaker 2: Eating other people? If I wanted, I'd be like, oh,

1662
01:18:48,250 --> 01:18:51,719
Speaker 2: my God. You'd be shaking. You'd be like, excuse me.

1663
01:18:52,000 --> 01:18:55,120
Speaker 2: I'll be back in one second. Get away from me, Micah.

1664
01:18:55,280 --> 01:18:58,860
Speaker 2: You'd pull a Clary Starling out. May I use your phone, please?

1665
01:18:59,560 --> 01:19:00,200
Speaker 1: Oh, my God.

1666
01:19:00,220 --> 01:19:04,979
Speaker 2: That was beautiful, Karen. Thank you. He thought the idea,

1667
01:19:05,080 --> 01:19:06,380
Speaker 2: the reason he was so obsessed with it is that

1668
01:19:06,400 --> 01:19:09,270
Speaker 2: he thought that that if he could eat other human beings,

1669
01:19:09,410 --> 01:19:12,970
Speaker 2: it would fill him out and make him bigger, stronger,

1670
01:19:13,210 --> 01:19:15,450
Speaker 2: make him, he felt like he wasn't, he was only

1671
01:19:15,560 --> 01:19:19,360
Speaker 2: half there and that everybody else was fully formed. Oh man.

1672
01:19:19,420 --> 01:19:22,120
Speaker 2: So he got this idea and it became this obsession.

1673
01:19:22,140 --> 01:19:25,240
Speaker 2: If he could just consume someone else, it would fill

1674
01:19:25,280 --> 01:19:26,420
Speaker 2: him out and make him whole.

1675
01:19:26,520 --> 01:19:29,640
Speaker 3: I mean, I get, I think it's crazy and he's

1676
01:19:29,680 --> 01:19:34,090
Speaker 3: mentally ill, but I get the, from first grade on

1677
01:19:34,150 --> 01:19:35,210
Speaker 3: having this obsession.

1678
01:19:35,229 --> 01:19:35,639
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1679
01:19:35,650 --> 01:19:37,760
Speaker 2: The logic of it. Right. Yes, for sure.

1680
01:19:37,780 --> 01:19:40,900
Speaker 3: The logic of the crazy I fucking get. Well, I've

1681
01:19:40,920 --> 01:19:43,740
Speaker 3: been crazy and obsessed with a specific thing in my

1682
01:19:43,780 --> 01:19:45,380
Speaker 3: life many fucking times. Yeah.

1683
01:19:45,870 --> 01:19:47,530
Speaker 2: Well, and to the point where, like, when you have

1684
01:19:47,550 --> 01:19:50,620
Speaker 2: body dysmorphia, where when you see yourself one way, you

1685
01:19:50,660 --> 01:19:51,780
Speaker 2: literally cannot see.

1686
01:19:51,680 --> 01:19:54,140
Speaker 3: Yourself any other way. And you think everyone sees that.

1687
01:19:54,320 --> 01:19:56,940
Speaker 2: And obsesses on it when, in fact, everyone's just obsessing

1688
01:19:56,979 --> 01:20:02,480
Speaker 2: about themselves. But when you also have then some kind

1689
01:20:02,500 --> 01:20:07,670
Speaker 2: of a psychopathy... Then you're that obsession doesn't you don't

1690
01:20:07,689 --> 01:20:11,050
Speaker 2: get distracted by other things. You you continue to obsess

1691
01:20:11,090 --> 01:20:12,299
Speaker 2: on it to the point where then you begin to

1692
01:20:12,439 --> 01:20:16,000
Speaker 2: fantasize about it. And so then when he moved into adolescence,

1693
01:20:16,040 --> 01:20:21,230
Speaker 2: the obsession and the fantasies, they became intertwined, the sexual aspects.

1694
01:20:21,800 --> 01:20:25,380
Speaker 2: And the cannibalism became intertwined. So this is.

1695
01:20:25,460 --> 01:20:26,900
Speaker 3: Level three of psychology.

1696
01:20:27,100 --> 01:20:29,519
Speaker 2: This is... I am pretending to know what I'm talking

1697
01:20:29,540 --> 01:20:31,640
Speaker 2: about to the point where I'm starting to believe it.

1698
01:20:31,820 --> 01:20:34,090
Speaker 2: And it feels... Sounds great. Fucking great.

1699
01:20:34,150 --> 01:20:35,120
Speaker 3: Yeah. Sounds great.

1700
01:20:35,160 --> 01:20:38,450
Speaker 2: It's a true victory for me tonight. Okay. So when

1701
01:20:38,470 --> 01:20:39,150
Speaker 2: he's 15, he actually.

1702
01:20:42,620 --> 01:20:44,900
Speaker 2: It gets so bad he reaches out to a psychiatrist

1703
01:20:45,350 --> 01:20:49,310
Speaker 2: and he explains that he is having sexual fantasies involving

1704
01:20:49,350 --> 01:20:55,650
Speaker 2: murder and cannibalism. And he also tells them that it's

1705
01:20:55,729 --> 01:20:59,350
Speaker 2: focused on Western. They keep referring to them as Western women,

1706
01:20:59,370 --> 01:21:03,030
Speaker 2: but it's basically white women, tall, blonde, kind of Marilyn

1707
01:21:03,050 --> 01:21:07,960
Speaker 2: Monroe type women that are fully curvy and curvaceous. And

1708
01:21:08,000 --> 01:21:10,059
Speaker 2: that's what he's seeing is that would fill me up.

1709
01:21:10,140 --> 01:21:11,160
Speaker 2: That would make me whole.

1710
01:21:11,220 --> 01:21:11,509
Speaker 1: Got it.

1711
01:21:11,780 --> 01:21:16,590
Speaker 2: It's also symbolic. Once he spills the beans, he's too

1712
01:21:16,650 --> 01:21:19,480
Speaker 2: scared to go back. So he just never goes back again.

1713
01:21:20,270 --> 01:21:22,310
Speaker 2: And at one point, maybe a little later on, he

1714
01:21:22,390 --> 01:21:24,849
Speaker 2: also goes to his brother and confides in his brother

1715
01:21:25,189 --> 01:21:27,030
Speaker 2: that he wants to eat human flesh. And his brother's like,

1716
01:21:27,050 --> 01:21:29,730
Speaker 2: you fucking nut. And never talks about it again.

1717
01:21:29,750 --> 01:21:30,309
Speaker 1: Isn't that great?

1718
01:21:30,330 --> 01:21:31,769
Speaker 3: Because I was going to be like, well, he's so

1719
01:21:31,810 --> 01:21:34,299
Speaker 3: crazy or like mentally ill. He doesn't know to go

1720
01:21:34,310 --> 01:21:37,740
Speaker 3: get help. But then he fucking did. Like when I

1721
01:21:37,800 --> 01:21:39,400
Speaker 3: am starting to obsess about a thing, I know to

1722
01:21:39,439 --> 01:21:41,780
Speaker 3: go to a psychologist or a psychiatrist.

1723
01:21:41,939 --> 01:21:44,760
Speaker 2: Right. He did that. No, he did. He actually and

1724
01:21:44,800 --> 01:21:47,740
Speaker 2: he was young, too, which is really hard. It's hard

1725
01:21:48,040 --> 01:21:50,060
Speaker 2: when you're younger to be like. I'm going to get

1726
01:21:50,160 --> 01:21:52,320
Speaker 2: some professional involved.

1727
01:21:51,939 --> 01:21:54,189
Speaker 3: In any of this. Probably in the Japanese culture, too.

1728
01:21:54,610 --> 01:21:55,689
Speaker 2: Yes. That can't be a big.

1729
01:21:55,570 --> 01:21:56,630
Speaker 3: Thing, right?

1730
01:21:57,030 --> 01:21:59,510
Speaker 2: I don't know, but I'm saying yes very authoritatively.

1731
01:21:59,550 --> 01:22:01,890
Speaker 3: I bet someone will very nicely correct us.

1732
01:22:02,270 --> 01:22:06,070
Speaker 2: Hopefully. Okay, so it's not until he's 23 and he's

1733
01:22:06,130 --> 01:22:10,380
Speaker 2: still living at his parents' house that he finally acts

1734
01:22:10,580 --> 01:22:14,019
Speaker 2: on these obsessions. A young German woman moved into the

1735
01:22:14,060 --> 01:22:18,480
Speaker 2: neighborhood and... He sees her and he's like, this is

1736
01:22:18,540 --> 01:22:24,639
Speaker 2: my chance. He starts obsessing on her and he's obsessed

1737
01:22:24,660 --> 01:22:25,920
Speaker 2: with biting her butt.

1738
01:22:26,540 --> 01:22:26,860
Speaker 4: Okay.

1739
01:22:27,040 --> 01:22:30,460
Speaker 2: So one night he breaks into her apartment. He only

1740
01:22:30,520 --> 01:22:34,460
Speaker 2: has an umbrella in his hand. He's wearing a Frankenstein mask.

1741
01:22:35,420 --> 01:22:39,040
Speaker 2: But remember, he's four foot nine. That's scary. It's horrifying.

1742
01:22:39,680 --> 01:22:42,820
Speaker 2: He goes into her room. She's asleep. And he's standing

1743
01:22:42,840 --> 01:22:45,890
Speaker 2: there trying to figure out what to do first. And

1744
01:22:45,930 --> 01:22:49,219
Speaker 2: his knee touches her leg and he wakes her up.

1745
01:22:50,729 --> 01:22:53,590
Speaker 2: So a tiny Frankenstein with an umbrella is standing next

1746
01:22:53,610 --> 01:22:56,410
Speaker 2: to her bed. She starts screaming. He freaks out. He

1747
01:22:56,450 --> 01:22:59,019
Speaker 2: goes to run away. She grabs him by the hands

1748
01:22:59,220 --> 01:23:01,340
Speaker 2: and wrestles him to the ground and.

1749
01:23:01,300 --> 01:23:02,020
Speaker 1: Calls the cops.

1750
01:23:02,939 --> 01:23:05,660
Speaker 2: So the cops come. They arrest him.

1751
01:23:05,820 --> 01:23:07,000
Speaker 3: What the fuck?

1752
01:23:07,300 --> 01:23:12,470
Speaker 2: On attempted rape charges. But then... Issei's father is very

1753
01:23:12,550 --> 01:23:16,490
Speaker 2: rich and has a big influential fancy job so the

1754
01:23:16,530 --> 01:23:20,169
Speaker 2: father pays off this German woman to drop the charges

1755
01:23:20,189 --> 01:23:22,290
Speaker 2: so she takes the money and she's like see you

1756
01:23:22,310 --> 01:23:27,530
Speaker 2: later alligator and nothing else happens except for they send

1757
01:23:27,590 --> 01:23:32,650
Speaker 2: him to a psychiatrist again but like this time now

1758
01:23:32,689 --> 01:23:36,290
Speaker 2: the whole family knows he goes to the psychiatrist the

1759
01:23:36,310 --> 01:23:38,950
Speaker 2: psychiatrist gets downloaded all the shit that's going on with

1760
01:23:39,010 --> 01:23:45,590
Speaker 2: him And the psychiatrist comes back and tells him or

1761
01:23:45,630 --> 01:23:48,549
Speaker 2: his parents or whatever that he is a sexual psychopath

1762
01:23:48,670 --> 01:23:52,450
Speaker 2: and extremely dangerous. Oh, my God. They're like, thanks a million.

1763
01:23:52,870 --> 01:23:53,470
Speaker 2: And they do nothing.

1764
01:23:53,610 --> 01:23:54,590
Speaker 3: Later days.

1765
01:23:54,890 --> 01:23:59,189
Speaker 2: So five years later, in 1977, Isay moves to Paris

1766
01:23:59,290 --> 01:24:02,680
Speaker 2: to pursue his Ph.D. in comparative literature at the Sorbonne.

1767
01:24:02,850 --> 01:24:06,640
Speaker 3: I mean, I didn't graduate. I didn't finish community college.

1768
01:24:07,300 --> 01:24:08,799
Speaker 3: And I'm not a sexual sadist.

1769
01:24:09,950 --> 01:24:13,189
Speaker 2: Both of those things are true. Two truths and a lie.

1770
01:24:13,360 --> 01:24:20,380
Speaker 2: Let's hear that lie. That's crazy. Well, also, he's clearly

1771
01:24:21,260 --> 01:24:26,360
Speaker 2: very high level intelligence. So there's so much going on.

1772
01:24:26,400 --> 01:24:27,420
Speaker 3: Okay, so I don't feel bad.

1773
01:24:27,780 --> 01:24:31,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, don't feel bad at all. He's surrounded by, now

1774
01:24:31,080 --> 01:24:34,520
Speaker 2: he's in Paris though, surrounded by the objects of his

1775
01:24:34,540 --> 01:24:42,479
Speaker 2: sadistic murderous fantasies everywhere he looks there's these big huge

1776
01:24:42,760 --> 01:24:46,920
Speaker 2: comparatively western women that he has been spending all of

1777
01:24:46,979 --> 01:24:50,500
Speaker 2: his young life in japan obsessing over and thinking about

1778
01:24:50,600 --> 01:24:53,670
Speaker 2: and rarely seeing now he's fucking smack dab in the

1779
01:24:53,710 --> 01:24:59,650
Speaker 2: middle oh shit so in 1979 he basically is he's

1780
01:24:59,810 --> 01:25:02,060
Speaker 2: of course still thinking about it he's like he wants

1781
01:25:02,100 --> 01:25:03,640
Speaker 2: to do it he knows he has to it's his

1782
01:25:03,720 --> 01:25:08,520
Speaker 2: obsession Then in 1979, the American actress Jean Seberg commits

1783
01:25:08,600 --> 01:25:11,580
Speaker 2: suicide in her car in Paris. And it's right near

1784
01:25:11,620 --> 01:25:16,140
Speaker 2: his apartment. And so he sees that as a sign

1785
01:25:16,439 --> 01:25:21,650
Speaker 2: that now it's time to start committing. No. Basically to

1786
01:25:21,670 --> 01:25:22,530
Speaker 2: make his fantasy come true.

1787
01:25:22,550 --> 01:25:23,429
Speaker 3: No, it's not.

1788
01:25:23,750 --> 01:25:23,950
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1789
01:25:24,350 --> 01:25:24,530
Speaker 3: So.

1790
01:25:25,229 --> 01:25:29,830
Speaker 2: Throughout that year, he started hiring sex workers to come

1791
01:25:29,850 --> 01:25:31,610
Speaker 2: back to his apartment, but he never had the guts

1792
01:25:31,650 --> 01:25:34,769
Speaker 2: to do anything out of control in any way that

1793
01:25:34,810 --> 01:25:38,960
Speaker 2: anybody reported or anybody knew about. But then one day,

1794
01:25:38,979 --> 01:25:45,740
Speaker 2: Rene Hardvelt walks into his classroom and he is immediately

1795
01:25:45,780 --> 01:25:48,320
Speaker 2: obsessed with her. He thinks she's beautiful. He starts drawing

1796
01:25:48,360 --> 01:25:51,849
Speaker 2: pictures of her and he begins to plan her murder

1797
01:25:52,910 --> 01:25:57,060
Speaker 2: so that he can eat her. Oh, my God. So

1798
01:25:57,120 --> 01:25:58,979
Speaker 2: we skip back to the night where he shoots her.

1799
01:25:59,260 --> 01:25:59,820
Speaker 2: He faints.

1800
01:26:00,180 --> 01:26:00,759
Speaker 1: Poor babe.

1801
01:26:00,840 --> 01:26:03,700
Speaker 2: When he comes to, he rapes the corpse. Then he

1802
01:26:03,760 --> 01:26:06,660
Speaker 2: tries to tear her flesh with his teeth. Oh, my God.

1803
01:26:06,680 --> 01:26:09,940
Speaker 2: But it doesn't work. He can't do it. So he leaves,

1804
01:26:10,150 --> 01:26:12,910
Speaker 2: and he goes and buys a butcher knife. What the fuck?

1805
01:26:12,930 --> 01:26:17,910
Speaker 2: He comes back to his apartment. He cuts her up

1806
01:26:18,189 --> 01:26:23,400
Speaker 2: and cooks some of her flesh. Oh, my God. And... Then,

1807
01:26:23,500 --> 01:26:26,360
Speaker 2: on the night of June 12th, he takes a cab

1808
01:26:26,680 --> 01:26:30,160
Speaker 2: carrying two big, huge, heavy suitcases to a place called

1809
01:26:30,240 --> 01:26:32,930
Speaker 2: Bois de Boulogne. I think I pronounced that right. That

1810
01:26:32,950 --> 01:26:34,970
Speaker 2: sounded gorgeous. Thank you. It sounded right.

1811
01:26:35,430 --> 01:26:35,890
Speaker 1: Boulogne.

1812
01:26:36,550 --> 01:26:40,050
Speaker 2: It's a public park, okay, in Paris that has a

1813
01:26:40,090 --> 01:26:43,760
Speaker 2: big lake. And his plan, it's 830 at night. His plan,

1814
01:26:43,780 --> 01:26:46,769
Speaker 2: he's going to take these two suitcases that have her

1815
01:26:47,210 --> 01:26:49,570
Speaker 2: cut up body parts in them and put them into

1816
01:26:49,610 --> 01:26:53,510
Speaker 2: the lake. No, honey. But he doesn't know that there's

1817
01:26:53,550 --> 01:26:57,939
Speaker 2: a restaurant lakeside. Oh, shit. So as he is struggling

1818
01:26:57,979 --> 01:27:00,440
Speaker 2: with two huge heavy suitcases trying to pull them down

1819
01:27:00,479 --> 01:27:03,210
Speaker 2: to the lake. All these people witness him.

1820
01:27:03,220 --> 01:27:05,480
Speaker 3: And they're like eating their fucking chicken Diane.

1821
01:27:06,420 --> 01:27:09,090
Speaker 2: And they're like, look at their French onion soup.

1822
01:27:09,120 --> 01:27:10,519
Speaker 3: Tiny Japanese man.

1823
01:27:10,560 --> 01:27:12,969
Speaker 2: And their baguettes. That's right. And they see a tiny

1824
01:27:12,990 --> 01:27:16,790
Speaker 2: Japanese man struggling, struggling, struggling with two suitcases to the

1825
01:27:16,850 --> 01:27:20,070
Speaker 2: point where he struggles for so long to get them

1826
01:27:20,130 --> 01:27:23,729
Speaker 2: down into the water. He finally gives up near the

1827
01:27:23,850 --> 01:27:25,689
Speaker 2: edge of the lake, lays down on the bench and

1828
01:27:25,729 --> 01:27:26,390
Speaker 2: goes to sleep.

1829
01:27:26,910 --> 01:27:27,050
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1830
01:27:27,770 --> 01:27:30,710
Speaker 2: When he wakes up, he sees an old man opening

1831
01:27:30,770 --> 01:27:34,719
Speaker 2: one of the suitcases. When the old man sees what's inside,

1832
01:27:35,400 --> 01:27:39,960
Speaker 2: he starts screaming and Issei gets up and calmly walks away.

1833
01:27:39,979 --> 01:27:43,460
Speaker 2: Holy shit. And disappears. How the fuck have I never

1834
01:27:43,520 --> 01:27:46,660
Speaker 2: heard of this banana story? Isn't it crazy? Yeah. Um,

1835
01:27:46,800 --> 01:27:52,800
Speaker 2: I've heard, I have heard like large, uh, swaths. Yes. That's,

1836
01:27:52,979 --> 01:27:54,920
Speaker 2: it's cause I was waving my hand. You were like

1837
01:27:54,939 --> 01:27:58,360
Speaker 2: doing a paintbrush. I've swathed it, but I never knew

1838
01:27:58,380 --> 01:28:02,740
Speaker 2: these fucking nuts of details. So he just fucking hightails

1839
01:28:02,780 --> 01:28:06,600
Speaker 2: it out of there slowly, which just creeps me out. Yeah. Yeah. Um,

1840
01:28:07,460 --> 01:28:11,650
Speaker 2: so they, they basically, all those witnesses call the police,

1841
01:28:11,660 --> 01:28:15,030
Speaker 2: the police, um, They all say, yep, we saw a

1842
01:28:15,070 --> 01:28:17,550
Speaker 2: cab drop this guy off. He tried to do this, whatever.

1843
01:28:17,910 --> 01:28:20,870
Speaker 2: They find the cab driver. The cab driver is like, yeah,

1844
01:28:20,890 --> 01:28:22,660
Speaker 2: I assumed I was taking him to the train station

1845
01:28:22,680 --> 01:28:25,440
Speaker 2: because he had these two huge suitcases. And they're like,

1846
01:28:25,540 --> 01:28:28,099
Speaker 2: what's his address? So they go to his address. He's

1847
01:28:28,160 --> 01:28:30,880
Speaker 2: walking out as the police are walking up and he

1848
01:28:30,920 --> 01:28:34,769
Speaker 2: just immediately confesses to everything. So they don't, there's, he's

1849
01:28:34,830 --> 01:28:37,809
Speaker 2: just arrested and taken in. But then the police have

1850
01:28:37,830 --> 01:28:39,439
Speaker 2: to go up into his apartment Oh, no. And what

1851
01:28:39,479 --> 01:28:44,380
Speaker 2: they find up there is the grisliest, grossest scene. There's more? Yes, because... Well,

1852
01:28:44,540 --> 01:28:45,599
Speaker 2: because he had cut.

1853
01:28:45,439 --> 01:28:46,080
Speaker 3: Up her body.

1854
01:28:46,160 --> 01:28:46,280
Speaker 4: Oh, no.

1855
01:28:46,380 --> 01:28:48,900
Speaker 2: And so there was wrapped up body parts in his refrigerator.

1856
01:28:49,439 --> 01:28:52,860
Speaker 2: And there's cooked body parts on plates on his kitchen table,

1857
01:28:53,600 --> 01:28:57,720
Speaker 2: along with a plate of peas. No. Like, it was

1858
01:28:57,760 --> 01:29:00,019
Speaker 2: like he had set up this whole dinner. And he

1859
01:29:00,320 --> 01:29:04,810
Speaker 2: had been, like, kind of, you know... eating, eating for days.

1860
01:29:05,010 --> 01:29:09,849
Speaker 2: Oh my God. So he is held in prison in Paris,

1861
01:29:10,530 --> 01:29:12,280
Speaker 2: but his father, his rich father gets him a high

1862
01:29:12,300 --> 01:29:17,120
Speaker 2: powered attorney. Um, he, uh, comes in front of the judge,

1863
01:29:17,180 --> 01:29:23,140
Speaker 2: judge Louis Brugere, I think, uh, accent a goo. And

1864
01:29:23,540 --> 01:29:28,179
Speaker 2: that judge declares that anybody who would prepare in advance

1865
01:29:28,240 --> 01:29:32,520
Speaker 2: to kill any, someone, um, could not be mentally sound.

1866
01:29:33,380 --> 01:29:39,000
Speaker 2: And so he believes that Asagawa is suffering from advanced dementia.

1867
01:29:39,460 --> 01:29:42,480
Speaker 2: And he orders him to be confined indefinitely to the

1868
01:29:42,560 --> 01:29:46,689
Speaker 2: Henri Collant Asylum for the Criminally Insane. There's no trial.

1869
01:29:47,630 --> 01:29:53,180
Speaker 2: So while he's in the asylum, Japanese writer... uh, in

1870
01:29:53,240 --> 01:29:59,360
Speaker 2: a Hiko Yamota, hopefully interviews him, uh, about these crimes

1871
01:29:59,439 --> 01:30:02,509
Speaker 2: and about his life. And, uh, all of the, they

1872
01:30:02,520 --> 01:30:06,510
Speaker 2: have a bunch of conversations, talk a bunch, and eventually

1873
01:30:06,570 --> 01:30:11,969
Speaker 2: they turn, um, all of that into a biography about

1874
01:30:12,110 --> 01:30:16,250
Speaker 2: Sagawa called in the fog. And when that biography comes

1875
01:30:16,390 --> 01:30:21,050
Speaker 2: out in Japan, it fucking sells out nationwide. Holy shit. Um,

1876
01:30:22,080 --> 01:30:25,290
Speaker 2: What the fuck? But since no murder charge is ever

1877
01:30:25,350 --> 01:30:28,450
Speaker 2: brought against him in France, the French authorities end up

1878
01:30:28,689 --> 01:30:33,410
Speaker 2: deporting Sagawa back to Japan. And he's sent to a

1879
01:30:33,430 --> 01:30:40,040
Speaker 2: place called the Matsuzawa Hospital. His father's forced to resign

1880
01:30:40,100 --> 01:30:43,240
Speaker 2: from his high-power job. His mother attempts suicide. So this,

1881
01:30:43,280 --> 01:30:49,099
Speaker 2: of course, is horrible for the family. Yeah. But Issei

1882
01:30:49,160 --> 01:30:51,700
Speaker 2: is becoming a cult phenomenon. So when the book sells,

1883
01:30:51,880 --> 01:30:55,200
Speaker 2: people are fascinated and they say that they think the

1884
01:30:55,260 --> 01:30:58,960
Speaker 2: theory is because Western women are just a kind of

1885
01:30:59,000 --> 01:31:03,740
Speaker 2: a conceptualized object over there. He became like an antihero. Oh,

1886
01:31:04,400 --> 01:31:06,780
Speaker 2: my God. So it was it was like this thing

1887
01:31:06,820 --> 01:31:10,099
Speaker 2: of it wasn't. it wasn't personal to anybody because none

1888
01:31:10,120 --> 01:31:12,220
Speaker 2: of these women looked like any of them. So it

1889
01:31:12,240 --> 01:31:15,200
Speaker 2: was just this kind of, um, yeah, it was just

1890
01:31:15,300 --> 01:31:17,980
Speaker 2: kind of the perfect objectification where people could just be

1891
01:31:18,060 --> 01:31:21,470
Speaker 2: fascinated by the grisly hideousness of the crime.

1892
01:31:21,490 --> 01:31:23,410
Speaker 3: Like it was the murder of an idea, not an

1893
01:31:23,530 --> 01:31:26,809
Speaker 3: actual woman whose family was mourning her.

1894
01:31:26,890 --> 01:31:30,809
Speaker 2: It was like, he wanted to murder this idea. And

1895
01:31:31,400 --> 01:31:37,040
Speaker 2: with that, the media went berserk. And at one point, um,

1896
01:31:37,780 --> 01:31:40,900
Speaker 2: the the magazine it's a french magazine called perry match

1897
01:31:41,700 --> 01:31:46,190
Speaker 2: and it publishes previously unseen shocking photos of her of

1898
01:31:46,630 --> 01:31:50,770
Speaker 2: renee's dismembered corpse it's such a scandal a reporter actually

1899
01:31:50,790 --> 01:31:54,050
Speaker 2: gets arrested for it and a million copies of the

1900
01:31:54,090 --> 01:31:56,940
Speaker 2: magazine are seized by the authorities oh my god so

1901
01:31:56,979 --> 01:31:59,639
Speaker 2: they fucking go round that shit up can you find

1902
01:31:59,680 --> 01:32:00,480
Speaker 2: it online.

1903
01:32:02,820 --> 01:32:07,580
Speaker 3: I didn't look I wouldn't look either.

1904
01:32:07,260 --> 01:32:11,610
Speaker 2: I saw the plate of peas in one of the

1905
01:32:11,630 --> 01:32:14,130
Speaker 2: documentaries and I was like I'm never going to get

1906
01:32:14,170 --> 01:32:15,750
Speaker 2: that plate of peas out of my head on that

1907
01:32:15,790 --> 01:32:19,920
Speaker 2: dinner table that's plenty for me But it was that

1908
01:32:20,540 --> 01:32:25,260
Speaker 2: it was that kind of insane media frenzy that kind

1909
01:32:25,280 --> 01:32:28,560
Speaker 2: of was making making it popular and so well known. Well,

1910
01:32:28,600 --> 01:32:33,150
Speaker 2: then on August 12th, 1986, Sagawa is set free from

1911
01:32:33,170 --> 01:32:36,390
Speaker 2: the mental hospital that he was sent to. due to

1912
01:32:36,430 --> 01:32:39,610
Speaker 2: lack of evidence against him because the French authorities had

1913
01:32:39,670 --> 01:32:41,780
Speaker 2: all the evidence and they locked it up.

1914
01:32:41,990 --> 01:32:44,479
Speaker 3: They lock him up in Japan. It's not, yeah.

1915
01:32:44,689 --> 01:32:47,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, it doesn't. So basically he's got the, he's got

1916
01:32:47,140 --> 01:32:49,620
Speaker 2: the juice to get him out. Shit. His family gets

1917
01:32:49,660 --> 01:32:53,820
Speaker 2: him out. Three years later, um, a man in Japan

1918
01:32:53,900 --> 01:32:57,140
Speaker 2: abducts and kills four girls. He basically, this guy goes

1919
01:32:57,280 --> 01:33:01,460
Speaker 2: on a murder spree and the media goes to Sagoa

1920
01:33:01,600 --> 01:33:04,400
Speaker 2: and asked him to weigh in on the killer and,

1921
01:33:05,040 --> 01:33:11,030
Speaker 2: And from there, he starts to become a media celebrity.

1922
01:33:11,310 --> 01:33:16,210
Speaker 2: He starts becoming a columnist for newspapers. After In the Fog,

1923
01:33:16,229 --> 01:33:19,219
Speaker 2: which was his first book, he writes 18 more books

1924
01:33:19,450 --> 01:33:23,590
Speaker 2: about himself, cannibalism, his murder. All of it.

1925
01:33:23,740 --> 01:33:25,460
Speaker 3: You've got to be a psychopath if you can write

1926
01:33:25,460 --> 01:33:27,479
Speaker 3: 18 fucking books, man.

1927
01:33:27,520 --> 01:33:28,100
Speaker 2: For real.

1928
01:33:28,180 --> 01:33:29,920
Speaker 3: I'm not, like, joking about writing books.

1929
01:33:29,960 --> 01:33:31,300
Speaker 1: Like, that's crazy.

1930
01:33:31,360 --> 01:33:33,080
Speaker 2: No, and also all about himself.

1931
01:33:33,100 --> 01:33:33,240
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1932
01:33:33,260 --> 01:33:38,969
Speaker 2: So, like, so crazy, crazy self-obsession. He also appears on

1933
01:33:39,050 --> 01:33:45,590
Speaker 2: television shows and begins to work the lecture circuit. No. Yeah. Eventually,

1934
01:33:46,390 --> 01:33:49,330
Speaker 2: and this is the part where I watched the Channel

1935
01:33:49,330 --> 01:33:53,120
Speaker 2: 4 documentary, and then there was another... another documentary, um,

1936
01:33:53,200 --> 01:33:55,630
Speaker 2: from 2007. And I think it was also a British

1937
01:33:55,750 --> 01:33:59,850
Speaker 2: one from channel five. Um, but I might just be

1938
01:33:59,870 --> 01:34:03,729
Speaker 2: saying that cause the other one was from channel four, but, uh,

1939
01:34:04,170 --> 01:34:08,700
Speaker 2: that also interviewed him and much older. And, um, he

1940
01:34:08,800 --> 01:34:16,240
Speaker 2: started starring in porno, sadomasochistic porn, where he, uh, would

1941
01:34:16,300 --> 01:34:20,160
Speaker 2: be getting beat up, tied up, slapped around by big

1942
01:34:21,530 --> 01:34:25,269
Speaker 2: western women white women oh my god one of the

1943
01:34:25,310 --> 01:34:29,020
Speaker 2: pornos that he stars in featured him having a relationship

1944
01:34:29,100 --> 01:34:32,000
Speaker 2: with a dutch woman where they actually go to like

1945
01:34:32,020 --> 01:34:35,420
Speaker 2: this theme park that's that's dutch themed so it is

1946
01:34:35,500 --> 01:34:39,540
Speaker 2: like beyond the bounds of good of bad taste beyond

1947
01:34:39,560 --> 01:34:43,340
Speaker 2: the bounds of exploitation like he enjoys the fact that

1948
01:34:43,420 --> 01:34:48,380
Speaker 2: he is he is like this disgusting celebrity for this

1949
01:34:48,420 --> 01:34:52,240
Speaker 2: crime family yes Yeah, that's what everyone, all the people,

1950
01:34:52,460 --> 01:34:55,840
Speaker 2: the talking heads in these documentaries, the cops. And there's

1951
01:34:56,000 --> 01:35:00,939
Speaker 2: a there's a really amazing professor, a professor that they

1952
01:35:00,979 --> 01:35:03,849
Speaker 2: talk to from Cambridge who's like all of his books

1953
01:35:03,890 --> 01:35:05,269
Speaker 2: are immoral garbage.

1954
01:35:05,750 --> 01:35:09,189
Speaker 3: So does the judge who in France, does he get

1955
01:35:09,810 --> 01:35:12,530
Speaker 3: talk shit on who like was like, he's just crazy.

1956
01:35:12,550 --> 01:35:13,229
Speaker 3: Let's send him away.

1957
01:35:14,550 --> 01:35:16,800
Speaker 2: It doesn't seem like it. No, none of those things

1958
01:35:16,860 --> 01:35:19,620
Speaker 2: really seem to be connected in any way.

1959
01:35:19,650 --> 01:35:21,969
Speaker 3: Like if he had been brought to trial in France,

1960
01:35:22,070 --> 01:35:25,200
Speaker 3: then maybe... But basically, I'm not fucking blaming French people.

1961
01:35:25,260 --> 01:35:27,019
Speaker 3: Just that one judge or it's like you got to

1962
01:35:27,060 --> 01:35:29,090
Speaker 3: let other people decide if he's crazy or not.

1963
01:35:29,310 --> 01:35:32,370
Speaker 2: Maybe it was his theory and there wasn't enough like

1964
01:35:32,430 --> 01:35:34,050
Speaker 2: psychological evidence to argue it.

1965
01:35:34,130 --> 01:35:35,070
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1966
01:35:35,350 --> 01:35:37,880
Speaker 2: But I mean, yeah, that's I think that that was

1967
01:35:37,910 --> 01:35:41,040
Speaker 2: the beginning of the breakdown. Also, if his dad had

1968
01:35:41,080 --> 01:35:43,220
Speaker 2: enough money and this is, again, just a theory of

1969
01:35:43,280 --> 01:35:46,300
Speaker 2: mine I'm making up on the spot. he might've just

1970
01:35:46,340 --> 01:35:49,269
Speaker 2: paid that judge off. And he's just like, yeah, it's better.

1971
01:35:49,350 --> 01:35:50,710
Speaker 2: He would have gotten hit the trial.

1972
01:35:50,729 --> 01:35:52,250
Speaker 3: If it had gone to trial, he would have had

1973
01:35:52,490 --> 01:35:54,729
Speaker 3: a fucking great attorney and would have gotten them off anyway.

1974
01:35:54,750 --> 01:35:55,630
Speaker 3: So it wouldn't have mattered.

1975
01:35:55,830 --> 01:35:57,450
Speaker 2: I mean the whole, but the whole thing is so

1976
01:35:57,490 --> 01:36:00,530
Speaker 2: insane and disgusting because he did it. He said he

1977
01:36:00,590 --> 01:36:03,530
Speaker 2: did it. The evidence proves he did it. He took

1978
01:36:03,590 --> 01:36:06,650
Speaker 2: this life and then defiled it the worst way he

1979
01:36:06,689 --> 01:36:09,640
Speaker 2: possibly could. And then just kind of nothing happened. So

1980
01:36:09,960 --> 01:36:14,080
Speaker 2: in these documentaries, he's, He's telling people about him. He

1981
01:36:14,200 --> 01:36:18,960
Speaker 2: loves talking about himself, you can tell, laughing. And he says,

1982
01:36:19,340 --> 01:36:22,720
Speaker 2: he claims that he has no desire to murder anyone,

1983
01:36:22,760 --> 01:36:25,880
Speaker 2: but he still wants to eat a woman. So it's

1984
01:36:25,960 --> 01:36:30,190
Speaker 2: not the murder he tries to rationalize, but it's just

1985
01:36:30,490 --> 01:36:33,350
Speaker 2: the eating of the flesh. And he also, you clearly,

1986
01:36:33,410 --> 01:36:37,910
Speaker 2: he has romanticized and rationalized this idea, that whole theory of,

1987
01:36:38,360 --> 01:36:40,940
Speaker 2: if I just eat someone, I will be whole and

1988
01:36:40,960 --> 01:36:43,809
Speaker 2: all that stuff is basically kind of his like calling

1989
01:36:43,850 --> 01:36:46,370
Speaker 2: card of like, here's why I did it. And it's

1990
01:36:46,410 --> 01:36:49,210
Speaker 2: almost poetic how I needed this because I'm so small

1991
01:36:49,229 --> 01:36:50,110
Speaker 2: and ugly. Poor me.

1992
01:36:50,410 --> 01:36:50,769
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1993
01:36:50,950 --> 01:36:52,740
Speaker 3: When it's like, yeah.

1994
01:36:52,860 --> 01:36:53,080
Speaker 1: Okay.

1995
01:36:53,120 --> 01:36:56,830
Speaker 2: Go on. In 2009, he gave advice and interview advice.

1996
01:36:56,850 --> 01:37:00,250
Speaker 2: So vice did a whole story about him. Um, which

1997
01:37:00,490 --> 01:37:03,310
Speaker 2: I didn't watch because after the second documentary I watched,

1998
01:37:03,410 --> 01:37:05,610
Speaker 2: I was like, I've had it with this guy. Yeah.

1999
01:37:05,790 --> 01:37:08,530
Speaker 2: But Steven told me a super hilarious part. Do you

2000
01:37:08,560 --> 01:37:10,110
Speaker 2: want to tell everybody that part? Okay.

2001
01:37:10,720 --> 01:37:13,240
Speaker 5: So yeah, when I was reading or looking at this interview, my,

2002
01:37:14,120 --> 01:37:16,040
Speaker 5: the part that really stuck out to me was the

2003
01:37:16,080 --> 01:37:19,479
Speaker 5: interviewer at some point, I think like third of the

2004
01:37:19,520 --> 01:37:21,519
Speaker 5: way through, he said, I'm just going to plot ahead

2005
01:37:21,540 --> 01:37:23,380
Speaker 5: with these questions so I can get the fuck out

2006
01:37:23,400 --> 01:37:23,660
Speaker 5: of here.

2007
01:37:24,479 --> 01:37:27,660
Speaker 2: That's how creepy this guy is. Oh my God. And

2008
01:37:27,720 --> 01:37:30,300
Speaker 2: at the beginning of the, excuse me for living documentary,

2009
01:37:30,580 --> 01:37:34,500
Speaker 2: it's really beautifully and amazingly shot. He's getting a haircut,

2010
01:37:34,939 --> 01:37:37,099
Speaker 2: but he's just staring into the camera as someone cuts

2011
01:37:37,140 --> 01:37:39,220
Speaker 2: his hair. And I swear to God, he doesn't blink

2012
01:37:39,300 --> 01:37:43,560
Speaker 2: for like two minutes. It's really, really fucking unnerving. And

2013
01:37:43,620 --> 01:37:45,140
Speaker 2: very strange. I don't want to watch it.

2014
01:37:45,200 --> 01:37:46,240
Speaker 3: I want to see a photo.

2015
01:37:46,500 --> 01:37:48,139
Speaker 2: Yeah, you have to look at it. But but when

2016
01:37:48,180 --> 01:37:50,760
Speaker 2: Steven sent me that text, I was just like, holy shit,

2017
01:37:50,780 --> 01:37:54,290
Speaker 2: like it must he must be so much even more. Yeah.

2018
01:37:54,790 --> 01:37:58,430
Speaker 2: After because he's still alive. He is still free. Both

2019
01:37:58,470 --> 01:37:59,429
Speaker 2: his parents died.

2020
01:37:59,490 --> 01:38:00,630
Speaker 3: Famous. Yes.

2021
01:38:01,030 --> 01:38:04,940
Speaker 2: He doesn't have any money. Um, like he, he had

2022
01:38:04,960 --> 01:38:08,440
Speaker 2: to pay off his parents' debts and, you know, he wasn't,

2023
01:38:08,520 --> 01:38:10,780
Speaker 2: he was like living in whatever state run housing for

2024
01:38:10,820 --> 01:38:15,520
Speaker 2: a while or whatever, but, but basically he's living free

2025
01:38:15,820 --> 01:38:17,770
Speaker 2: and he's kind of doing whatever he wants and people

2026
01:38:17,810 --> 01:38:21,490
Speaker 2: are still talking to him about his crime, uh, even

2027
01:38:21,530 --> 01:38:25,930
Speaker 2: to this day. Oh, also in, in that, um, vice interview,

2028
01:38:25,950 --> 01:38:30,560
Speaker 2: I read a thing where he said, um, uh, would

2029
01:38:30,600 --> 01:38:34,420
Speaker 2: love to be killed by a beautiful woman or he

2030
01:38:34,439 --> 01:38:36,520
Speaker 2: would love to drown in female saliva.

2031
01:38:36,550 --> 01:38:36,610
Speaker 4: Ew!

2032
01:38:39,110 --> 01:38:43,210
Speaker 2: And that, my friend, is Japanese cannibal Ise Sagawa.

2033
01:38:45,500 --> 01:38:47,420
Speaker 3: What the fucking fuck?

2034
01:38:47,460 --> 01:38:50,420
Speaker 2: Isn't that nuts? Yes. There's lots of things you can

2035
01:38:50,460 --> 01:38:52,920
Speaker 2: watch with that guy in it talking about himself.

2036
01:38:53,040 --> 01:38:54,360
Speaker 3: I just want to see a photo of him, but

2037
01:38:54,380 --> 01:38:55,740
Speaker 3: I don't want to watch anything.

2038
01:38:55,890 --> 01:38:58,230
Speaker 2: Okay. Is that fair? We'll get you a photo. I'll

2039
01:38:58,290 --> 01:38:59,610
Speaker 2: email you a photo later tonight.

2040
01:38:59,630 --> 01:39:00,330
Speaker 3: I would love that.

2041
01:39:00,390 --> 01:39:07,929
Speaker 1: Okay, perfect. Okay, we're back. Wow, Karen, any updates?

2042
01:39:08,300 --> 01:39:11,259
Speaker 2: The only update to this case is that in November

2043
01:39:11,280 --> 01:39:16,099
Speaker 2: of 2022... Issei Sagawa died from complications of pneumonia at

2044
01:39:16,300 --> 01:39:18,000
Speaker 2: age 73, and that's it.

2045
01:39:18,160 --> 01:39:21,060
Speaker 1: It makes me a little relieved for, you know, like,

2046
01:39:21,120 --> 01:39:23,700
Speaker 1: deep down in my heart that he's not walking the

2047
01:39:23,740 --> 01:39:26,680
Speaker 1: earth anymore in a way that was, like, freaky that

2048
01:39:26,720 --> 01:39:27,219
Speaker 1: he was.

2049
01:39:27,640 --> 01:39:30,750
Speaker 2: Him getting away with it was just... It's unsettling.

2050
01:39:31,030 --> 01:39:31,550
Speaker 3: Yes, it is.

2051
01:39:31,990 --> 01:39:34,730
Speaker 2: And weird, and, like, it's what makes me fascinated about, like,

2052
01:39:35,310 --> 01:39:38,130
Speaker 2: trying to learn about psychopaths and sociopaths, where it's, like,

2053
01:39:38,250 --> 01:39:41,260
Speaker 2: they don't, like... They can do stuff like that, keep

2054
01:39:41,340 --> 01:39:43,880
Speaker 2: on going, write a book, be on talk shows. That's

2055
01:39:43,939 --> 01:39:44,519
Speaker 2: the idea.

2056
01:39:44,540 --> 01:39:51,460
Speaker 1: And still admit he's still interested on TV shows. Not changing,

2057
01:39:51,500 --> 01:39:53,400
Speaker 1: not knowing that he needs to keep that to himself.

2058
01:39:53,560 --> 01:39:59,500
Speaker 1: I keep meaning to read that psychopath book. Not a biography, what.

2059
01:39:59,460 --> 01:40:01,620
Speaker 2: Is it called? Is it The Sociopath Next Door?

2060
01:40:01,880 --> 01:40:04,280
Speaker 1: That's the one. I keep wanting to read that.

2061
01:40:04,360 --> 01:40:09,460
Speaker 2: It's so good. It's really skinny. It's incredibly good writing,

2062
01:40:09,540 --> 01:40:13,060
Speaker 2: but technical, like you're really learning something, but it's not long,

2063
01:40:13,160 --> 01:40:16,190
Speaker 2: which of course, that's all, that's all it can do.

2064
01:40:18,090 --> 01:40:21,990
Speaker 2: Then welcome to the ADHD book club. 50 pages or less, please.

2065
01:40:22,030 --> 01:40:25,400
Speaker 1: I'm literally reading an ADHD book right now from Scattered Minds.

2066
01:40:26,340 --> 01:40:31,059
Speaker 2: We'll do Jesse Pomeroy's autobiography, this short, A Sociopath Next Door,

2067
01:40:31,140 --> 01:40:33,179
Speaker 2: very short, and whatever you're reading.

2068
01:40:33,240 --> 01:40:34,439
Speaker 1: An ADHD workbook.

2069
01:40:36,220 --> 01:40:38,479
Speaker 2: Every page has one thing on it. They're like, wait, no, no, no,

2070
01:40:38,500 --> 01:40:39,719
Speaker 2: come back. Yeah, stop.

2071
01:40:40,020 --> 01:40:40,220
Speaker 4: Yeah.

2072
01:40:40,540 --> 01:40:43,260
Speaker 1: Okay, let's get into our fucking hoorays.

2073
01:40:50,330 --> 01:40:51,050
Speaker 2: Oh, God.

2074
01:40:51,530 --> 01:40:51,759
Speaker 4: Yeah.

2075
01:40:51,910 --> 01:40:56,920
Speaker 3: I need a fucking hooray Silkwood shower after this episode.

2076
01:40:56,939 --> 01:41:00,680
Speaker 2: How about we fucking hooray ourselves out of out of

2077
01:41:00,720 --> 01:41:03,020
Speaker 2: all those bad vibes right now? Let's do it. OK.

2078
01:41:03,270 --> 01:41:05,350
Speaker 2: This is something that I found a guy that I

2079
01:41:05,390 --> 01:41:11,309
Speaker 2: follow on Twitter named Adam Jeskowitz. Jeskowitz. Yeah. He tweeted

2080
01:41:11,350 --> 01:41:17,040
Speaker 2: this this afternoon and I can't stop watching it. So

2081
01:41:17,340 --> 01:41:19,780
Speaker 2: apparently on the Lakers, I'm about to talk about basketball,

2082
01:41:19,800 --> 01:41:22,500
Speaker 2: which I know nothing about. Get ready. Okay. We're going

2083
01:41:22,520 --> 01:41:23,900
Speaker 2: into a totally new territory.

2084
01:41:24,060 --> 01:41:25,820
Speaker 3: I'm ready. I'm scared.

2085
01:41:25,850 --> 01:41:28,690
Speaker 2: I'm here with you. Stay with me.

2086
01:41:28,710 --> 01:41:30,729
Speaker 3: Let's do it.

2087
01:41:30,890 --> 01:41:33,830
Speaker 2: Apparently the Los Angeles Lakers. Heard of them. That's a

2088
01:41:33,850 --> 01:41:35,030
Speaker 2: team here in our city.

2089
01:41:35,370 --> 01:41:36,650
Speaker 3: Heard of it.

2090
01:41:36,810 --> 01:41:41,160
Speaker 2: There is a guy who last night played in the

2091
01:41:41,200 --> 01:41:45,750
Speaker 2: game of basketball. Okay. He spent 10 years in something

2092
01:41:45,790 --> 01:41:48,650
Speaker 2: called the G League. Okay. So he basically was like

2093
01:41:48,870 --> 01:41:53,030
Speaker 2: a farm team, is what I'm assuming, for basketball. Spent

2094
01:41:53,030 --> 01:41:56,200
Speaker 2: 10 years playing in it. And last night, they brought

2095
01:41:56,240 --> 01:41:58,900
Speaker 2: him up to the big leagues and he played his

2096
01:41:59,000 --> 01:42:03,070
Speaker 2: first basketball. game as a Los Angeles Laker against Houston.

2097
01:42:03,630 --> 01:42:08,760
Speaker 2: He scored fucking 19 points. People were chanting MVP. He

2098
01:42:08,840 --> 01:42:12,700
Speaker 2: just keeps hitting threes. You have to see there is

2099
01:42:12,939 --> 01:42:15,820
Speaker 2: all good things. I don't know. Yes, it's the best. Amazing.

2100
01:42:15,880 --> 01:42:18,220
Speaker 2: There is a one minute video that I retweeted onto

2101
01:42:18,260 --> 01:42:22,080
Speaker 2: my Twitter that I started watching and I couldn't stop crying.

2102
01:42:22,100 --> 01:42:25,969
Speaker 2: And This is what I love. Adam Jaskowicz, who tweeted

2103
01:42:25,990 --> 01:42:28,610
Speaker 2: it originally, wrote, even if you don't enjoy basketball, this

2104
01:42:28,689 --> 01:42:31,830
Speaker 2: is pretty lovely. Dude fought for a decade for this moment,

2105
01:42:31,970 --> 01:42:35,349
Speaker 2: and when it finally happened, it was perfect. He's also

2106
01:42:35,390 --> 01:42:38,440
Speaker 2: a volunteer tutor to kids and seems like a genuinely

2107
01:42:38,460 --> 01:42:42,220
Speaker 2: good person. And in this video, his teammates are up

2108
01:42:42,300 --> 01:42:45,840
Speaker 2: off the bench fucking screaming. It is like one of

2109
01:42:45,860 --> 01:42:48,720
Speaker 2: the most inspirational, beautiful things I've ever seen. And as

2110
01:42:48,760 --> 01:42:53,050
Speaker 2: someone who like, you know, I've lived... In Los Angeles

2111
01:42:53,110 --> 01:42:56,370
Speaker 2: for 24 fucking years, I have tried to do things

2112
01:42:56,470 --> 01:42:59,350
Speaker 2: and given up about four different times. Oh, yeah. And

2113
01:42:59,390 --> 01:43:01,090
Speaker 2: to see a thing like that, where this is a

2114
01:43:01,130 --> 01:43:04,150
Speaker 2: guy that just plugged along and then walked out on

2115
01:43:04,170 --> 01:43:08,720
Speaker 2: the court and nailed it. And he's he's in his 30s,

2116
01:43:08,760 --> 01:43:12,280
Speaker 2: I think. So which is, you know, for an NBA player,

2117
01:43:12,700 --> 01:43:16,070
Speaker 2: not young. Just fucking incredible. Like if you get a chance,

2118
01:43:16,410 --> 01:43:18,150
Speaker 2: even if you don't give a shit about sports, look

2119
01:43:18,189 --> 01:43:20,599
Speaker 2: it up. You will fucking love this story. Okay. It's

2120
01:43:20,680 --> 01:43:22,479
Speaker 2: the best. I love it. It made me so happy.

2121
01:43:22,500 --> 01:43:25,040
Speaker 2: You're crying right now. I did a light cry. I

2122
01:43:25,080 --> 01:43:31,590
Speaker 2: just fucking really relate his name again. And he, congratulations,

2123
01:43:32,110 --> 01:43:35,610
Speaker 2: LA Laker, Andre Ingram, because the world fucking loves you

2124
01:43:35,650 --> 01:43:39,370
Speaker 2: right now. Suddenly we care about fucking basketball. They made

2125
01:43:39,430 --> 01:43:39,889
Speaker 2: us care.

2126
01:43:39,910 --> 01:43:42,950
Speaker 3: I have, I too want to shout out two Instagrams

2127
01:43:42,970 --> 01:43:45,679
Speaker 3: that are making me happy or like social media things.

2128
01:43:46,900 --> 01:43:54,370
Speaker 3: One is this, I, I follow this fucking body positive model, uh,

2129
01:43:55,040 --> 01:44:00,490
Speaker 3: on Instagram name, uh, Allie Tate. who posts these photos

2130
01:44:00,550 --> 01:44:06,650
Speaker 3: of herself that are so, she's what one would call

2131
01:44:06,689 --> 01:44:07,790
Speaker 3: a plus size.

2132
01:44:07,570 --> 01:44:09,300
Speaker 2: Model, which means she looks like a normal woman.

2133
01:44:09,320 --> 01:44:12,820
Speaker 3: Right. And she posts photos of herself in beautiful clothing.

2134
01:44:12,880 --> 01:44:15,160
Speaker 3: She posts photos of herself in bathing suits and she

2135
01:44:15,240 --> 01:44:19,600
Speaker 3: has my body. She has a normal woman's body and

2136
01:44:19,660 --> 01:44:22,019
Speaker 3: she's so positive about it. She posts these photos where

2137
01:44:22,060 --> 01:44:25,450
Speaker 3: she's naked and bending over and there's rolls. And it's

2138
01:44:25,550 --> 01:44:28,170
Speaker 3: just made me look at my own body and be like,

2139
01:44:29,570 --> 01:44:32,120
Speaker 3: Just because you have those things doesn't mean it's unattractive.

2140
01:44:32,140 --> 01:44:35,400
Speaker 2: And it's been really wonderful. And she seems really sweet.

2141
01:44:35,479 --> 01:44:40,760
Speaker 3: So that's Allie Tate. The other one that's not body positive,

2142
01:44:41,000 --> 01:44:43,880
Speaker 3: but it's been making me fucking crack up. And I

2143
01:44:43,920 --> 01:44:47,630
Speaker 3: think It's brand new. It's called Honest Couple.

2144
01:44:47,870 --> 01:44:48,969
Speaker 2: Oh, yes. That's Jake Wiseman.

2145
01:44:48,990 --> 01:44:51,970
Speaker 3: Jake Wiseman created this fucking Instagram account.

2146
01:44:52,030 --> 01:44:52,889
Speaker 2: It's so funny.

2147
01:44:52,950 --> 01:44:56,750
Speaker 3: He takes fucking like stock photos of couples that just

2148
01:44:56,790 --> 01:44:59,310
Speaker 3: look like the most annoying couples you've ever seen in

2149
01:44:59,330 --> 01:45:03,550
Speaker 3: your life and posts the honest caption of what one

2150
01:45:03,590 --> 01:45:04,730
Speaker 3: of them is really thinking.

2151
01:45:05,390 --> 01:45:07,330
Speaker 2: And I just cannot get enough of it. And I

2152
01:45:07,370 --> 01:45:10,000
Speaker 2: love it so much. So I think he needs to,

2153
01:45:10,420 --> 01:45:11,320
Speaker 2: it needs to be a thing.

2154
01:45:11,340 --> 01:45:11,480
Speaker 3: Yeah.

2155
01:45:11,500 --> 01:45:13,600
Speaker 2: It's so hilarious. It's like two people. It looks like

2156
01:45:13,620 --> 01:45:16,379
Speaker 2: they're on a hike and they're taking a selfie of themselves.

2157
01:45:16,400 --> 01:45:17,700
Speaker 2: They're both smiling. It's gorgeous.

2158
01:45:17,740 --> 01:45:18,730
Speaker 3: Like stock photo.

2159
01:45:18,740 --> 01:45:20,950
Speaker 2: And then underneath it, it says he hasn't made her

2160
01:45:20,970 --> 01:45:21,870
Speaker 2: come in two years.

2161
01:45:22,670 --> 01:45:26,010
Speaker 3: He made me cry three minutes after this photo was taken.

2162
01:45:26,189 --> 01:45:28,370
Speaker 3: It's just like, or her friends are the least funny

2163
01:45:28,410 --> 01:45:30,080
Speaker 3: people I've ever met in my life. It's just this

2164
01:45:30,900 --> 01:45:33,020
Speaker 3: he was like i'm sick of these photos of like

2165
01:45:33,180 --> 01:45:35,120
Speaker 3: perfect couples and then you find out they broke up

2166
01:45:35,140 --> 01:45:38,400
Speaker 3: a week later so here's what's really fucking happening it's.

2167
01:45:38,160 --> 01:45:40,300
Speaker 2: So hilarious it's the best he's so funny and also

2168
01:45:40,340 --> 01:45:42,480
Speaker 2: watch corporate on comedy central because he's one of the

2169
01:45:42,560 --> 01:45:45,800
Speaker 2: one of the stars that's right yeah great stand-up comic.

2170
01:45:45,460 --> 01:45:50,070
Speaker 3: He is really funny oh matt engelbretson too of course matt.

2171
01:45:49,850 --> 01:45:53,350
Speaker 2: Calm down matt you're tall you're tall you've got it

2172
01:45:53,370 --> 01:45:53,849
Speaker 2: shut up.

2173
01:45:58,670 --> 01:46:01,030
Speaker 1: Okay, we're back, and I love how obsessed we are

2174
01:46:01,189 --> 01:46:02,340
Speaker 1: with basketball.

2175
01:46:02,400 --> 01:46:06,080
Speaker 2: I mean, here's the thing, though. If you get a good, like,

2176
01:46:06,280 --> 01:46:09,120
Speaker 2: underdog story, I'll pay attention to any sport.

2177
01:46:09,580 --> 01:46:10,280
Speaker 1: You love those.

2178
01:46:10,400 --> 01:46:14,580
Speaker 2: That's my favorite. And just a quick update about Andre Ingram,

2179
01:46:14,860 --> 01:46:16,850
Speaker 2: which I know you've been waiting on pins and needles.

2180
01:46:16,890 --> 01:46:17,410
Speaker 1: Yes.

2181
01:46:17,550 --> 01:46:20,490
Speaker 2: But he did get a little more NBA time after

2182
01:46:20,530 --> 01:46:24,229
Speaker 2: that perfect Lakers debut. He scored 19 points in his

2183
01:46:24,270 --> 01:46:28,100
Speaker 2: first NBA game on April 10th, 2018. played one more

2184
01:46:28,140 --> 01:46:31,840
Speaker 2: game that season. His full NBA career was brief, but

2185
01:46:31,860 --> 01:46:35,720
Speaker 2: the story didn't disappear. And the NBA still lists that

2186
01:46:35,740 --> 01:46:39,660
Speaker 2: 19-point debut as his career high. He also kept on

2187
01:46:39,700 --> 01:46:42,940
Speaker 2: playing in the G League where he started. So coming in,

2188
01:46:42,979 --> 01:46:45,700
Speaker 2: getting it done in a couple games, and then leaving again,

2189
01:46:45,979 --> 01:46:48,040
Speaker 2: not the worst thing you can do for a professional

2190
01:46:48,060 --> 01:46:48,719
Speaker 2: sports career.

2191
01:46:48,880 --> 01:46:50,740
Speaker 1: In a young man's game, too. It gives me hope

2192
01:46:50,780 --> 01:46:53,380
Speaker 1: about whatever skills I don't. have yet.

2193
01:46:53,620 --> 01:46:55,900
Speaker 2: Getting back to roller derby the way you've always talked about.

2194
01:46:55,920 --> 01:46:57,120
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly.

2195
01:46:57,280 --> 01:47:00,600
Speaker 2: So this episode was originally titled Robot Grandma, but if

2196
01:47:00,640 --> 01:47:03,439
Speaker 2: we were naming it today, there are just a plethora

2197
01:47:03,479 --> 01:47:06,179
Speaker 2: of choices that we could use. Like, of course, Ready OK.

2198
01:47:06,200 --> 01:47:09,920
Speaker 1: Yep, you must. We could do Stephen Hardstar Kilgariff, which

2199
01:47:10,479 --> 01:47:10,880
Speaker 1: I fucking love.

2200
01:47:10,920 --> 01:47:12,260
Speaker 2: Which is what we would do.

2201
01:47:12,580 --> 01:47:14,299
Speaker 1: Absolutely. Absolutely.

2202
01:47:15,300 --> 01:47:17,360
Speaker 2: Demon Horse, which is what you said I sounded like

2203
01:47:17,420 --> 01:47:19,559
Speaker 2: when I was laughing in my coffee mug. Yeah.

2204
01:47:20,650 --> 01:47:22,310
Speaker 1: Radical self-immolation.

2205
01:47:22,790 --> 01:47:25,610
Speaker 2: Yes. That's right. You know that word that pops into

2206
01:47:25,630 --> 01:47:27,130
Speaker 2: your head when you can't think of.

2207
01:47:29,470 --> 01:47:31,250
Speaker 2: You meant radical self-acceptance.

2208
01:47:31,270 --> 01:47:32,090
Speaker 1: Self-acceptance.

2209
01:47:32,229 --> 01:47:32,509
Speaker 3: Who?

2210
01:47:32,770 --> 01:47:34,690
Speaker 1: I don't know what that is. I've never heard of it.

2211
01:47:34,990 --> 01:47:38,210
Speaker 2: Listen, we used to speak so freely on this show. God.

2212
01:47:38,630 --> 01:47:39,269
Speaker 1: We really did.

2213
01:47:39,510 --> 01:47:42,570
Speaker 2: So fun. Well, that's it for this episode of Rewind.

2214
01:47:42,790 --> 01:47:46,229
Speaker 1: Let's go and say goodbye from 2018.

2215
01:47:48,979 --> 01:47:50,320
Speaker 3: Thanks for listening, you guys.

2216
01:47:50,900 --> 01:47:54,240
Speaker 2: Was this a three fucking hour episode? That was nuts.

2217
01:47:54,660 --> 01:47:56,939
Speaker 3: It feels like it. It was a three can fucking

2218
01:47:56,960 --> 01:47:58,969
Speaker 3: sparkling wine episode.

2219
01:47:58,990 --> 01:48:01,450
Speaker 2: That's how you know. Georgia's threw half a six pack

2220
01:48:01,470 --> 01:48:08,950
Speaker 2: of wine and feeling fine. Feeling myself. Feeling fine. Sink it, Georgia's.

2221
01:48:09,450 --> 01:48:12,040
Speaker 2: That's a basketball cheer. It's all full fucking circle. It

2222
01:48:12,100 --> 01:48:15,599
Speaker 2: comes back to fucking cheerleading. We always bring it back

2223
01:48:15,800 --> 01:48:19,510
Speaker 2: around for you, the listener. We love you. Stay sexy.

2224
01:48:19,680 --> 01:48:25,939
Speaker 2: And don't get murdered. Goodbye. Oh, Elvis. He's right there. Elvis,

2225
01:48:26,600 --> 01:48:27,200
Speaker 2: you want a cookie?

2226
01:48:28,900 --> 01:48:30,500
Speaker 1: Good boy.