WEBVTT - Dr. Nicky Ali Jackson on treating the trauma that stems from being wrongfully convicted 0:00:07.000 --> 0:00:10.200 Welcome to Righteous Convictions with Jason Flam the podcast where 0:00:10.240 --> 0:00:12.520 I get to speak with people who see the wrong 0:00:12.560 --> 0:00:14.720 in the world and are driven to make it right. 0:00:15.520 --> 0:00:18.479 I guess today spent most of her academic career teaching 0:00:18.520 --> 0:00:21.759 and writing on issues of domestic violence and victimization, but 0:00:21.840 --> 0:00:25.200 after more than three decades in she met someone whose 0:00:25.239 --> 0:00:28.760 story of wrongful conviction opened her eyes to another kind 0:00:28.760 --> 0:00:34.280 of victim. I found that people who have been wrongly 0:00:34.320 --> 0:00:39.840 convicted have been really ignored in the space of victimology. 0:00:41.159 --> 0:00:45.480 The key differences in a domestic violence situation, the batterer 0:00:45.640 --> 0:00:49.920 is typically a significant other. In a wrongful conviction, the 0:00:50.000 --> 0:00:54.520 abuser is our criminal justice system. But the impact and 0:00:54.880 --> 0:01:01.600 the effects of the abuse really are quite parallel. Right 0:01:01.600 --> 0:01:26.039 now on Righteous Convictions, Dr Nikki Ali Jackson, Welcome back 0:01:26.080 --> 0:01:29.119 to Righteous Convictions with Jason Plant. My guest today has 0:01:29.160 --> 0:01:33.280 a PhD in victimization and as a criminal justice professor 0:01:33.400 --> 0:01:38.200 and warrior at Purdue University Northwest in Indiana. She started 0:01:38.200 --> 0:01:41.560 her career focused mainly on domestic violence. In fact, in 0:01:41.640 --> 0:01:45.840 two thousand and seven she published the first ever encyclopedia 0:01:45.920 --> 0:01:50.520 of domestic violence, but in two thousand sixteen she experienced 0:01:50.840 --> 0:01:53.720 an Aha moment, and I'll let her tell you about 0:01:53.760 --> 0:01:57.000 that later, But that moment led her to a career 0:01:57.040 --> 0:02:00.440 pivot that bridges the gap between victim and Asian and 0:02:00.520 --> 0:02:05.080 mass incarceration. Now she's hard at work writing some of 0:02:05.120 --> 0:02:08.320 the wrongs that come about as a result of rawful convictions. 0:02:09.080 --> 0:02:15.079 Dr Nikki Ali Jackson, Welcome to Righteous Convictions. Thank you. So, 0:02:15.720 --> 0:02:18.519 NICKI tell us how you got started on this incredible journey. 0:02:18.680 --> 0:02:22.280 Start at the very beginning, if you would. Okay, Well, 0:02:22.320 --> 0:02:25.000 I was actually I was born in Pakistan and my 0:02:25.080 --> 0:02:27.480 father is a professor, and we end up coming to 0:02:27.840 --> 0:02:31.440 Canada for him to finish up his PhD. And then 0:02:31.639 --> 0:02:35.960 he got a job at Ball State University. We moved 0:02:36.040 --> 0:02:40.120 to Muncy when I was I think I was five, 0:02:40.840 --> 0:02:44.480 and so I pretty much grew up in Muncy. And 0:02:44.560 --> 0:02:46.960 my father is an academic, so I grew up in 0:02:47.000 --> 0:02:50.919 this whole sphere of academia. My uncles are professors, so 0:02:51.160 --> 0:02:53.560 I was very fortunate. I went to a high school 0:02:53.560 --> 0:02:57.600 that was a laboratory school and my teachers were all professors, 0:02:57.919 --> 0:03:01.400 So again, academia, it was just right in front of 0:03:01.440 --> 0:03:05.760 my face. So I went to college and I started 0:03:05.760 --> 0:03:09.480 off as a social work major, and I recognized that 0:03:09.480 --> 0:03:13.400 that really wasn't what was of interest to me. And 0:03:13.480 --> 0:03:16.440 I end up taking a criminal justice course literally down 0:03:16.520 --> 0:03:18.760 the hall, and that was it. I had just like 0:03:18.919 --> 0:03:22.919 fell fallen in love with this course, and I changed 0:03:22.960 --> 0:03:26.960 my major after one criminal justice class. And then you 0:03:27.040 --> 0:03:30.000 end up as doctor Jackson. So how does that title 0:03:30.040 --> 0:03:35.560 figure into it? So I have my PhD in sociology 0:03:35.560 --> 0:03:39.960 with a criminal justice kind of concentration and my dissertation 0:03:40.360 --> 0:03:44.880 and my research has really focused on domestic violence. That's 0:03:44.880 --> 0:03:47.480 really where I've spent the bulk of my career is 0:03:47.520 --> 0:03:51.720 in the space of domestic violence. And you've published a 0:03:51.720 --> 0:03:55.360 couple of books on the sociological and psychological factors surrounding 0:03:55.400 --> 0:03:58.400 domestic violence as well. So what is it about this 0:03:58.480 --> 0:04:03.440 field that fascinates you? Particularly what I wanted to do 0:04:03.520 --> 0:04:05.800 in the space of domestic violence? And I think this 0:04:05.960 --> 0:04:08.400 is just who I am. I know that there's research 0:04:08.440 --> 0:04:10.480 out there, but I know that there's more work to 0:04:10.520 --> 0:04:13.480 be done. And back in the day, when I started 0:04:13.520 --> 0:04:17.840 doing research in the early nineties on DV issues, I 0:04:17.920 --> 0:04:22.000 recognized that males had been ignored. I recognized that same 0:04:22.040 --> 0:04:27.640 sex partners were were ignored in the in the literature. Therefore, 0:04:27.960 --> 0:04:32.240 I wanted to bring something to life which acknowledged a 0:04:32.480 --> 0:04:36.440 host of different types of victims of domestic violence. Keep 0:04:36.480 --> 0:04:38.760 in mind, when I was in college, I started in 0:04:40.560 --> 0:04:44.159 very long time ago. Domestic violence wasn't something people were 0:04:44.160 --> 0:04:48.560 talking about. Shelters were just starting to emerge. We just 0:04:48.640 --> 0:04:51.120 didn't know a whole lot about it. So back in 0:04:51.120 --> 0:04:54.599 in the early eighties, this was really a new area 0:04:55.200 --> 0:04:59.719 of victimology. So fast forward, you end up with the 0:04:59.760 --> 0:05:03.000 wor you're doing now in the wrong conviction space, and 0:05:03.040 --> 0:05:05.240 it seems like you made kind of a sudden career 0:05:05.240 --> 0:05:09.000 pivot here, although I'm sure there's all kinds of connections 0:05:09.040 --> 0:05:11.000 we can talk about and maybe you can help us 0:05:11.040 --> 0:05:14.240 connect those dots. So what is it that brought you here? 0:05:14.839 --> 0:05:18.880 I think I've always had this real care for people 0:05:18.880 --> 0:05:23.040 who are victimized, and I found that people who have 0:05:23.080 --> 0:05:27.880 been wrongly convicted have been really ignored in the space 0:05:28.120 --> 0:05:32.240 of victimology. And that is why I think my work, 0:05:32.760 --> 0:05:35.719 my research, all of the media that I do is 0:05:35.760 --> 0:05:39.320 really important because I want people to understand that they, 0:05:39.680 --> 0:05:43.920 just like domestic violence victims, have been victimized the key differences. 0:05:44.240 --> 0:05:48.120 In a domestic violence situation, the batterer is typically a 0:05:48.160 --> 0:05:52.880 significant other. In a wrongful conviction, the abuser is our 0:05:52.920 --> 0:05:57.600 criminal justice system. But the impact and the effects of 0:05:57.880 --> 0:06:01.800 the abuse really are parallel. And then, as I understand that, 0:06:01.839 --> 0:06:04.320 there was one case that really got under your skin 0:06:04.440 --> 0:06:07.440 and got your full attention and sent you down the 0:06:07.520 --> 0:06:14.240 path here on right now, tell us about Willie Donald. Sure, So, 0:06:14.400 --> 0:06:16.839 about six and a half years ago, I was reading 0:06:16.839 --> 0:06:19.160 an article in a newspaper about a man who had 0:06:19.160 --> 0:06:22.400 been wrongly convicted and released here in Indiana. He had 0:06:22.440 --> 0:06:25.840 spent almost twenty four years in prison for robberies and a 0:06:25.800 --> 0:06:28.760 a homicide he did not commit. I couldn't believe what 0:06:28.800 --> 0:06:32.120 I was reading. I've been a professor for so many years, 0:06:32.400 --> 0:06:35.640 and all of a sudden I understood that people had 0:06:35.640 --> 0:06:39.560 been wrongly convicted. But for whatever reason, this case just 0:06:40.040 --> 0:06:43.280 like literally stood out. Maybe seeing a picture of him 0:06:43.400 --> 0:06:49.000 in his prison uniform, um looked really um just it 0:06:49.080 --> 0:06:51.919 was a very sad photo to look at. He was 0:06:52.000 --> 0:06:54.800 super vulnerable, and I just I wanted to know more 0:06:54.839 --> 0:06:58.000 about this man. I called our prosecutor, who was a 0:06:58.120 --> 0:06:59.880 very good friend of mine. He was at my wedding 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:03.760 twenty seven years ago, and I asked him, I said, Bernie, 0:07:03.880 --> 0:07:07.000 did this guy commit this crime? And he said he 0:07:07.080 --> 0:07:12.440 did not innocent, and I asked him, what are you doing? What? What? 0:07:12.440 --> 0:07:15.240 What is the state doing? And after I screamed, you 0:07:15.320 --> 0:07:17.320 locked up the wrong guy. Oh my god, you locked 0:07:17.400 --> 0:07:19.680 up the wrong guy for twenty four years, and he's like, yeah, 0:07:19.680 --> 0:07:22.040 we did. And I'm like, what are you gonna do 0:07:22.160 --> 0:07:26.640 for him? And they're really The answer was nothing, There's 0:07:26.680 --> 0:07:29.800 nothing we're gonna do for him. And I was outraged. 0:07:29.840 --> 0:07:31.360 I have to tell you, it takes a lot to 0:07:31.360 --> 0:07:35.360 get me that angry. I was angry. I was on fire. 0:07:35.840 --> 0:07:38.400 You lock a kid up at twenty two, you release 0:07:38.520 --> 0:07:40.880 him at the age of forty six, and there's nothing, 0:07:41.440 --> 0:07:45.600 there's zero you're doing to help this man. It was 0:07:45.720 --> 0:07:48.640 just it was mind boggling. And that's when I reached 0:07:48.640 --> 0:07:52.320 out to the attorney and asked to meet with Mr 0:07:52.360 --> 0:07:56.360 Donald UM and thankfully Mr Donald agreed to meet with 0:07:56.400 --> 0:08:00.480 me and UM. We met in a diner, and UM 0:08:00.520 --> 0:08:05.600 I learned of what had happened to him, his entire ordeal. Um. Actually, 0:08:05.640 --> 0:08:08.280 I learned pretty I thought I learned it all, but 0:08:08.360 --> 0:08:10.640 every time I speak to him, I learned another little 0:08:10.680 --> 0:08:14.080 piece of the of the ordeal. And I get more 0:08:14.120 --> 0:08:18.280 annoyed and more aggravated every time I hear something um 0:08:18.320 --> 0:08:22.560 about his case or other people's cases. So Mr Donald 0:08:22.640 --> 0:08:27.480 shared um the fact that he had been wrongly convicted 0:08:27.680 --> 0:08:32.520 on a mistake and witness identification. And Mr Donald's picture 0:08:33.360 --> 0:08:35.959 was in this photo lineup, and it should the photo 0:08:36.000 --> 0:08:38.480 shouldn't have even been in there. It was a photo 0:08:38.520 --> 0:08:42.000 from when he was picked up by the police for 0:08:42.520 --> 0:08:45.880 what they believed was an auto theft. When the police 0:08:46.000 --> 0:08:50.480 recognized that the car had not been stolen, the damage 0:08:50.480 --> 0:08:52.720 had already been done. They had already taken his photo 0:08:53.080 --> 0:08:56.440 and they put it into wherever they store it. And 0:08:56.480 --> 0:09:00.080 then they brought that photo out into this lineup, and 0:09:00.760 --> 0:09:06.000 for whatever reason, two women picked Mr Donald out, even 0:09:06.000 --> 0:09:10.840 though he did not match the description of the actual 0:09:11.360 --> 0:09:16.440 perpetrator based on five different witnesses testimony. I mean, five 0:09:16.480 --> 0:09:20.000 different witnesses had described him in a whole different way 0:09:20.360 --> 0:09:23.280 than what Mr Donald looked like. All right, so you've 0:09:23.360 --> 0:09:26.680 just met with this guy, he's told you this this 0:09:26.800 --> 0:09:30.280 unreal story. You've seen what happened to him. What did 0:09:30.320 --> 0:09:33.320 you do next? Well, the first thing I did was 0:09:33.360 --> 0:09:36.680 sitting my my truck and I just broke down crying. 0:09:36.840 --> 0:09:39.760 After I met Mr Donald, literally left the diner, sat 0:09:39.800 --> 0:09:42.520 in my truck and was like, oh my god, this 0:09:42.559 --> 0:09:45.000 man has been locked up for twenty four years. He 0:09:45.080 --> 0:09:49.360 doesn't probably trust, he doesn't know me. How am I 0:09:49.400 --> 0:09:52.640 going to gain his trust? What am I gonna do? 0:09:53.000 --> 0:09:56.840 Remember I worked with domestic violence victims, not people who've 0:09:56.840 --> 0:09:59.600 been wrongly convicted. And yet here I'm sitting at this 0:09:59.679 --> 0:10:02.680 bread us with this man making all of these promises 0:10:02.720 --> 0:10:05.800 to him. I'm going to get a compensation bill started 0:10:05.840 --> 0:10:08.319 here in Indiana. I'm gonna do X, Y and Z. 0:10:08.559 --> 0:10:10.520 I'm gonna do this. And I'm sitting in my car 0:10:11.000 --> 0:10:16.000 literally having a complete ugly cry because I don't know 0:10:16.600 --> 0:10:19.760 what I'm gonna do, how I'm gonna do it. But 0:10:19.840 --> 0:10:22.480 I made a promise to Mr Donald, and I keep 0:10:22.520 --> 0:10:39.400 my word. The Pacers Foundation is a proud supporter of 0:10:39.400 --> 0:10:42.960 this episode of rawfle Conviction and of the Last Mile organization, 0:10:43.000 --> 0:10:46.679 which provides business and tech training to help incarcerated individuals 0:10:46.679 --> 0:10:50.720 successfully and permanently re enter the workforce. The Pacers Foundation 0:10:50.800 --> 0:10:53.960 is committed to improving the lives of Hoosiers across Indiana, 0:10:54.080 --> 0:10:57.880 supporting organizations that are dedicated primarily to helping young people 0:10:57.920 --> 0:11:00.640 and students. For more information on the work of the 0:11:00.640 --> 0:11:04.520 Pacers Foundation or the Last Bile Program, visit Pacers Foundation 0:11:04.559 --> 0:11:16.360 dot org or the Last Mile dot org. Once I 0:11:16.520 --> 0:11:20.440 heard about Mr Donald's ordeal and the fact that there 0:11:20.480 --> 0:11:24.959 were no reparations for this man or any man or 0:11:25.080 --> 0:11:28.000 woman in the state of Indiana who had been exonerated, 0:11:28.440 --> 0:11:33.000 I just couldn't believe what I was hearing. So what 0:11:33.080 --> 0:11:37.720 I did is I literally got home. I emailed Barry 0:11:37.800 --> 0:11:40.640 Scheck with the Innocence Project and said, I need some 0:11:40.720 --> 0:11:43.400 help here. I didn't think he was going to respond 0:11:43.440 --> 0:11:46.000 to me because he doesn't know me and doesn't know 0:11:46.320 --> 0:11:49.400 my university. And in the next morning I got a 0:11:49.400 --> 0:11:52.240 response from Mr Check and said, thank you for being 0:11:52.240 --> 0:11:54.840 a voice for the voiceless in Indiana, and our office 0:11:54.840 --> 0:12:01.040 will help you in any way we can. I decided 0:12:01.240 --> 0:12:04.559 I wanted to reach senators and I sit onto prison boards. 0:12:04.600 --> 0:12:06.720 So what I did was I went up to my 0:12:06.760 --> 0:12:09.720 prison boards and looked to see what senators are sitting 0:12:09.760 --> 0:12:13.440 on the board. So I emailed the senator and I 0:12:13.520 --> 0:12:19.080 emailed another senator and a state rep. And had them 0:12:19.120 --> 0:12:23.080 come to a dinner before I even talked to the 0:12:23.080 --> 0:12:26.160 Innocence Project. So I decided, we're going to meet him 0:12:26.200 --> 0:12:30.360 one day. I'm gonna bring three exonorees with me and 0:12:30.840 --> 0:12:34.320 they're going to tell their stories too, who were from 0:12:34.400 --> 0:12:40.280 Illinois who had been the victims of the Chicago torture case. 0:12:40.960 --> 0:12:44.440 Once spent thirty even years wrongly convicted, another was twenty 0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:46.959 eight years in prison. And then I had Mr Donald, 0:12:47.200 --> 0:12:50.160 who was still really nervous. You have to also understand 0:12:50.240 --> 0:12:53.800 Mr Donald had only been out of prison for a 0:12:53.880 --> 0:12:56.760 few days after I met him. I mean, it wasn't 0:12:56.880 --> 0:12:59.440 very long, you know, after he got out when I 0:12:59.480 --> 0:13:03.240 met him. So you've got three legislators, three exonorees including 0:13:03.320 --> 0:13:05.680 Mr Donald, and you've got an attorney from the Innocence 0:13:05.720 --> 0:13:09.719 Project and you're all sitting down together. That's quite an 0:13:09.760 --> 0:13:14.880 extraordinary group. What happened at that dinner and what was 0:13:14.920 --> 0:13:18.520 the outcome? We talked about the problem and what's needed 0:13:18.520 --> 0:13:24.199 here in Indiana. One of the senators really was interested 0:13:24.440 --> 0:13:27.400 in well, they all were interested, but one took action 0:13:27.600 --> 0:13:29.720 and he said, I'm going to connect you with some 0:13:29.800 --> 0:13:32.800 folks at Indianapolis. So he took me to the capitol 0:13:33.320 --> 0:13:35.640 and he let me speak to all these different people 0:13:35.800 --> 0:13:40.880 about what I wanted done here in Indiana and through 0:13:40.920 --> 0:13:44.479 the Innocence Project of New York. One of their attorneys, 0:13:44.720 --> 0:13:47.960 Beth Powers, she came to Indiana and she met with 0:13:48.000 --> 0:13:52.480 me and we worked on We had conversations basically about 0:13:52.559 --> 0:13:57.000 what needed to be done in terms of a compensation packet. 0:13:58.120 --> 0:14:02.280 After hearing about Mr Donald's or deal, I realized that 0:14:02.320 --> 0:14:06.560 they needed money first and foremost right and initially the 0:14:06.600 --> 0:14:10.680 bill um that was drafted was for dollars per year 0:14:10.840 --> 0:14:14.559 of wrongful conviction. I told them I was not going 0:14:14.600 --> 0:14:18.280 to accept that. They also initially in the bill had 0:14:18.320 --> 0:14:22.600 it where the exonrees, our current exonres would not be 0:14:22.680 --> 0:14:28.520 eligible for compensation. It's only for future exonrees. That's unacceptable. 0:14:29.080 --> 0:14:32.440 So a year later, came back to the table, met 0:14:32.480 --> 0:14:36.200 one of the authors of the bill, State Rep. Greg 0:14:36.240 --> 0:14:40.560 Stuart Walt, who was very passionate about making things right 0:14:40.840 --> 0:14:45.280 for people who've been wrongly convicted. He and another Senator 0:14:45.600 --> 0:14:49.080 drafted the bill. Beth Powers flew in from New York. 0:14:49.640 --> 0:14:53.600 I came and I invited our prosecutor from Lake County 0:14:53.720 --> 0:14:55.920 to come. I thought it would be really important to 0:14:55.920 --> 0:14:59.120 have a prosecutor sitting at that table. So we all 0:14:59.120 --> 0:15:01.800 sat around and we talked about what the tenants of 0:15:01.840 --> 0:15:06.160 the bill should look like. I didn't agree with some 0:15:06.280 --> 0:15:10.960 pieces of the bill, and I was told that, um, 0:15:11.000 --> 0:15:14.120 even though I wasn't happy with some of the the 0:15:14.240 --> 0:15:17.560 elements of the bill, that it would not get past 0:15:18.080 --> 0:15:21.440 if I added the pieces that I wanted particularly, and 0:15:21.520 --> 0:15:25.080 that bill ended up being HB eleven fifty, which was 0:15:25.120 --> 0:15:29.040 signed into law in twenty nineteen, making Indiana one of 0:15:29.160 --> 0:15:32.600 thirty five states with a law to compensate the roughly convicted, 0:15:33.960 --> 0:15:36.880 which of course still means that there's fifteen that don't 0:15:36.920 --> 0:15:43.160 have one, which is absolutely mind blowing and terrible. Anyway, 0:15:43.200 --> 0:15:45.680 as great as it is that that law was finally 0:15:46.400 --> 0:15:49.320 passed and signed, you've said that you feel the bill 0:15:49.440 --> 0:15:52.600 is still flawed. What are some of the things you'd 0:15:52.600 --> 0:15:57.280 want changed. I did not like the fact that these 0:15:57.320 --> 0:16:01.960 axonrerees would have to choose between mean compensation and litigation. 0:16:02.760 --> 0:16:09.360 I absolutely still and angry about that piece of the bill. 0:16:10.200 --> 0:16:14.840 We are re victimizing these victims that we've already stolen 0:16:14.880 --> 0:16:18.240 so many years from and I wanted it to be 0:16:18.480 --> 0:16:22.160 where they get compensation from the State of Indiana, but 0:16:22.240 --> 0:16:27.960 they also were able to pursue civil litigation. I explained 0:16:28.200 --> 0:16:32.960 to the people sitting at the table that listen, if 0:16:33.000 --> 0:16:34.880 you and I got hit by a car, we have 0:16:35.000 --> 0:16:38.400 the right to sue that driver. We have that right. 0:16:39.120 --> 0:16:41.880 We were injured and we want to be made as 0:16:41.920 --> 0:16:45.440 whole as we can through civil litigation. We are now 0:16:45.480 --> 0:16:49.200 telling axonorees in the State of Indiana, we're not going 0:16:49.240 --> 0:16:53.000 to make you whole through through litigation. So what's really 0:16:53.080 --> 0:16:57.000 happening at the end of the day is axonrees have 0:16:57.200 --> 0:17:04.399 to now choose between except in compensation or accepting a 0:17:04.440 --> 0:17:08.359 settlement or whatever they would get from a lawsuit. Um, 0:17:08.400 --> 0:17:11.160 they can't do both. And I was told that's because 0:17:11.160 --> 0:17:14.639 it's double dipping. I don't view it as double dipping. 0:17:15.000 --> 0:17:18.040 I think there's different parties that have injured them, and 0:17:18.280 --> 0:17:21.280 the state has injured them, and then there's also individual 0:17:21.320 --> 0:17:24.640 actors and agencies that have injured them. And I think 0:17:24.720 --> 0:17:29.880 those actors and those agencies have been given a passive. 0:17:29.960 --> 0:17:36.040 You will because if Exonoy takes compensation, no one's going 0:17:36.080 --> 0:17:39.800 to be held accountable in that particular agency that may 0:17:39.840 --> 0:17:44.320 have caused the wrongful conviction. That is outrageous. So I 0:17:44.359 --> 0:17:46.399 would love to see us come back to the table 0:17:46.560 --> 0:17:51.960 and remove that piece. And so those individuals who harmed 0:17:52.119 --> 0:17:56.040 Mr Donald or any exon e E. In the state 0:17:56.040 --> 0:18:00.760 of Indiana intentionally, they should be held accountable. We held 0:18:00.760 --> 0:18:03.560 a man in prison for something he didn't do, but 0:18:03.640 --> 0:18:09.160 then the actors who intentionally did something, we're not doing 0:18:09.200 --> 0:18:12.679 anything to them. That doesn't seem fair to me. So 0:18:12.880 --> 0:18:15.600 when you say actors, you're talking about the prosecutors here 0:18:15.640 --> 0:18:19.600 who are pretty much immune from being sued in these cases. Right, Yes, 0:18:19.760 --> 0:18:23.680 So I'm not a fan of absolute immunity for prosecutors. 0:18:23.760 --> 0:18:27.359 I think prosecutors they are untouchable. And I think that 0:18:27.520 --> 0:18:30.720 is a problem of a prosecutor who's a friend of 0:18:30.800 --> 0:18:34.480 mine said to me, Nikki, you have to understand that 0:18:34.600 --> 0:18:38.919 if we go with the absolute immunity, prosecutors are going 0:18:38.960 --> 0:18:40.879 to be afraid to prosecute. And I said, okay, so 0:18:41.000 --> 0:18:44.560 what's the problem. I think that's okay, then maybe it's 0:18:44.600 --> 0:18:46.840 going to scare you enough to say I'm only going 0:18:46.920 --> 0:18:51.760 to prosecute a case where I have, without question probable 0:18:51.840 --> 0:18:57.880 cause that this individual committed this crime, and unfortunately police, 0:18:58.640 --> 0:19:03.520 some police and prosecutors are very tunnel vision, and that's 0:19:03.520 --> 0:19:06.640 how we end up with one or two of our 0:19:06.640 --> 0:19:13.199 prison population being actually innocent. That's a huge problem. And 0:19:13.320 --> 0:19:16.880 I don't think prosecutors go into their careers saying, oh, 0:19:16.920 --> 0:19:19.560 I want to convict innocent people. I don't think that 0:19:19.680 --> 0:19:23.199 at all. But I do believe it happens, and it 0:19:23.240 --> 0:19:26.480 shouldn't happen. And I think there are times when prosecutors 0:19:26.480 --> 0:19:31.000 have information and they withhold that information. We know that now, um, 0:19:31.040 --> 0:19:34.679 and when you commit a Brady violation, you should be 0:19:34.720 --> 0:19:38.800 held accountable. You shouldn't have that absolute immunity. And I 0:19:38.840 --> 0:19:42.840 believe that the person you injured you should be able 0:19:42.920 --> 0:19:46.280 to sue you. You can charge them criminally, but they 0:19:46.280 --> 0:19:49.520 can't come back and get you civilly because you went 0:19:49.560 --> 0:19:53.320 after them knowing that they probably were innocent. I mean, 0:19:53.400 --> 0:19:56.280 I'm not saying prosecutors do that routinely, but I do 0:19:56.400 --> 0:19:59.040 believe it happens, and I believe it happens more than 0:19:59.359 --> 0:20:02.639 it should. So that's one fixed that's absolutely needed. What 0:20:02.800 --> 0:20:06.480 else do you feel needs to be fixed regarding this legislation? 0:20:06.960 --> 0:20:11.080 The other piece that, you know that's problematic with our 0:20:11.200 --> 0:20:16.200 compensation bill is the actual application of the bill. Um. 0:20:16.600 --> 0:20:21.000 So the way that exonorees would if they decided to 0:20:21.040 --> 0:20:24.680 take compensation, they have to fill out an application. And 0:20:25.280 --> 0:20:28.520 you can imagine this isn't really an easy task for 0:20:28.640 --> 0:20:31.920 somebody who's been locked up for decades, who's probably trying 0:20:31.920 --> 0:20:36.280 to navigate a computer learning how to you know, Google, 0:20:36.480 --> 0:20:40.400 use word and everything else. But you know it's all electronic. 0:20:40.720 --> 0:20:44.479 I'm sure you could probably downloaded and print it. But 0:20:44.680 --> 0:20:48.440 again some axonorees will have to have some help, right, 0:20:49.040 --> 0:20:53.480 But regardless of that part of it, the reality is 0:20:53.880 --> 0:20:59.920 the axonre ee has to prove his or her factual innocence. 0:21:01.280 --> 0:21:06.240 Think about that, The exonary has to prove his or 0:21:06.280 --> 0:21:09.439 her factual innocence. So what the state is saying is 0:21:09.480 --> 0:21:13.760 that if you want to receive compensation, the burden is 0:21:13.920 --> 0:21:19.159 on you to prove that you're factually innocent. Well, do 0:21:19.200 --> 0:21:24.000 you think axsonorees have money for DNA experts or other 0:21:24.080 --> 0:21:29.439 forensic experts. Know they don't. So basically what we're doing, 0:21:29.880 --> 0:21:34.120 they're being retried for this crime. They've already been exonerated 0:21:34.400 --> 0:21:37.480 and now we're saying, if you want to receive the 0:21:37.760 --> 0:21:43.480 fifty dollars per year of your wrongful incarceration, then you're 0:21:43.520 --> 0:21:47.399 going to have to prove to this board that you 0:21:47.440 --> 0:21:51.800 were wrongly convicted and you are factually innocent. That's a 0:21:51.840 --> 0:21:56.080 heavy burden for an exonery. It's a really big hurdle, 0:21:56.720 --> 0:22:00.560 and I would believe that it might detour some honorees 0:22:00.720 --> 0:22:06.040 from applying. Well, I mean, I I just don't understand 0:22:06.280 --> 0:22:11.760 why it's so challenging. You know, there aren't that many eggshonorees. 0:22:12.080 --> 0:22:15.080 Will there be more coming out of Indiana prisons? Of 0:22:15.119 --> 0:22:17.639 course there will be, hopefully there will be. We know 0:22:17.760 --> 0:22:20.520 there are innocent men and women sitting in prison. We 0:22:20.640 --> 0:22:23.880 need to get them out of prison. But again, it's 0:22:24.119 --> 0:22:27.400 very difficult to get them out. It's easy to get 0:22:27.440 --> 0:22:30.400 them in, but it's really a challenge to get them out. 0:22:53.000 --> 0:22:57.840 I sit on to prison boards and last week we 0:22:57.880 --> 0:23:00.400 had a board meeting and I was at the Indiana 0:23:00.440 --> 0:23:03.959 State Prison, and I was very grateful that the warden 0:23:04.040 --> 0:23:07.520 allowed me to speak about this new initiative that I 0:23:07.600 --> 0:23:11.080 have established. But one of the things that I wanted 0:23:11.119 --> 0:23:14.720 to impress upon all of the board members sitting at 0:23:14.960 --> 0:23:20.199 the Indiana State Prison, including wardens from other prisons, is 0:23:20.200 --> 0:23:24.120 that we have innocent people sitting in prison, and because 0:23:24.119 --> 0:23:27.240 we have innocent people sitting in prison, we need to 0:23:27.280 --> 0:23:30.320 do better and we've got to make sure that we 0:23:30.400 --> 0:23:33.640 help these folks get out of prison. And I heard 0:23:33.640 --> 0:23:37.840 somebody say, well, we don't have that many, and I 0:23:37.920 --> 0:23:42.480 was like, wow, one is too many. I mean you 0:23:42.520 --> 0:23:44.959 should have seen my face, Like really, I mean, this 0:23:45.040 --> 0:23:48.440 wasn't a private conversation, it wasn't during the entire board meeting, 0:23:48.680 --> 0:23:51.720 but somebody just did say to me, it doesn't happen 0:23:51.800 --> 0:23:57.639 that often. That's really a really horrific statement. It's like, 0:23:58.080 --> 0:24:00.239 what are you saying to me? What if it was 0:24:00.280 --> 0:24:02.679 your mother, what if it was your brother, what if 0:24:02.720 --> 0:24:06.760 it was your child? That one would be too many? 0:24:06.840 --> 0:24:08.760 And do you feel like you got through to them? 0:24:08.800 --> 0:24:12.719 I mean, did what you were saying actually land and 0:24:12.800 --> 0:24:18.000 didn't make any difference? I think I I think I 0:24:18.040 --> 0:24:20.679 think I think I got to some of them. I 0:24:20.680 --> 0:24:24.040 think some of them were really listening to me um, 0:24:24.280 --> 0:24:27.880 and I don't think they understood not. I mean, obviously 0:24:27.920 --> 0:24:30.240 they all care, they're human beings and they do care, 0:24:30.640 --> 0:24:33.000 but I think they just didn't understand that this is 0:24:33.040 --> 0:24:36.919 a real problem. And you know they refer to the 0:24:37.000 --> 0:24:41.520 inmates as offenders, right, that's what we we go from 0:24:41.520 --> 0:24:44.320 prisoners to offenders to inmates. We have all these different 0:24:44.480 --> 0:24:47.639 terms for people who are locked up in in prisons, 0:24:48.359 --> 0:24:51.600 and when somebody uses the term offender, I stopped them 0:24:51.640 --> 0:24:55.760 because they're not all offenders. They're not They're all prisoners, 0:24:56.080 --> 0:24:59.280 but they're not all offenders. So I don't like the 0:24:59.440 --> 0:25:03.160 use of the word offender to describe people who are 0:25:03.840 --> 0:25:07.560 in a carceral state. Okay, let's talk numbers, because I 0:25:07.600 --> 0:25:11.720 know you've crunched these statistics. How many wrongfully convicted are 0:25:11.840 --> 0:25:17.919 currently incarcerated conservatively, Conservatively, there's about a hundred sixty six 0:25:18.000 --> 0:25:22.680 thousand people who are sitting in our prisons who are 0:25:22.760 --> 0:25:25.919 and this is so important for your audience to understand. 0:25:26.240 --> 0:25:30.240 These are people who are factually innocent, not that they 0:25:30.320 --> 0:25:34.359 have they're they're sitting in prison because the police didn't 0:25:34.400 --> 0:25:38.359 properly mirandize them, that they were wrongly convicted because of 0:25:38.400 --> 0:25:42.600 a technicality. They're in prison and they didn't commit the crime. 0:25:43.240 --> 0:25:46.520 That nothing to do with it. And that's this is 0:25:46.560 --> 0:25:49.800 a low guestimate about a hundred sixty six thousand people. 0:25:50.359 --> 0:25:54.040 And that's out of a total which this number should 0:25:54.080 --> 0:25:59.199 shock everyone into action, over two million people in prison, right, 0:26:00.359 --> 0:26:02.880 I think we've dropped to two point one Now we're 0:26:02.920 --> 0:26:06.080 down to two point one d because of COVID, So 0:26:06.440 --> 0:26:09.880 we we have lost some UM, which is a good 0:26:09.920 --> 0:26:13.680 thing UM because we we did see releases of inmates 0:26:13.760 --> 0:26:16.760 during UM during the COVID period. So the last I 0:26:16.800 --> 0:26:19.399 looked a few months ago, there were two point one million. 0:26:20.440 --> 0:26:23.960 I mean, I'm not gonna lie. This wasn't really an 0:26:24.040 --> 0:26:27.760 interest of mine when I was in school, when I 0:26:27.800 --> 0:26:31.280 was teaching. I mean, as a professor for decades, I 0:26:31.320 --> 0:26:34.600 should have been talking more about these issues. And until 0:26:34.640 --> 0:26:37.919 I met Mr Donald, I don't think it really hit me. 0:26:38.000 --> 0:26:40.679 And here I am somebody who's you know, supposed to 0:26:40.680 --> 0:26:45.000 be you know, educated and as an expert, has a PhD. 0:26:45.359 --> 0:26:48.560 And if I don't get it, how could a lay 0:26:48.600 --> 0:26:51.080