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Speaker 1: app now credd SRD SORR. Hey there, and welcome to
Speaker 1: another episode of Thinking Sideways. I am Steve as usual
Speaker 1: joint by Devin and Joe, and this week we're gonna
Speaker 1: talk about something that is classified as a miracle by
Speaker 1: the Catholic Church. So that makes it a mystery, does
Speaker 1: because not everybody believes that the Church is right, and
Speaker 1: this is known as the Miracle of the Son or
Speaker 1: the Miracle of Fatima. I do want to say that
Speaker 1: this was a listener's suggestion suggested by Mel, so thank you,
Speaker 1: Mel appreciated this was a good one. So Here's what
Speaker 1: happened is, according to accounts by witnesses, on the October
Speaker 1: nineteen seventeen, as promised, a miracle took place. And what
Speaker 1: that miracle was was that the sun appeared to dance
Speaker 1: across the sky, to move closer to and then farther
Speaker 1: away from the earth, and to shine in many different colors.
Speaker 1: So that that is the miracle itself right there. Before
Speaker 1: we talk about the miracle and the mushrooms, there's some
Speaker 1: backstory we should cover that, so let's get that part first.
Speaker 1: But quick disclaimer. Yeah, okay, So this story deals with
Speaker 1: Catholic faith and religious iconography and practices, and I am
Speaker 1: by no means an expert in that, and I've done
Speaker 1: my best here, but if I flubb something, give me
Speaker 1: a little bit of a little bit of room here. Uh.
Speaker 1: And also, as always with stories that are seated in
Speaker 1: religious faith, I don't want anybody to take what we're
Speaker 1: saying is in any way, shape or form mocking. That's
Speaker 1: not the intention. We're simply talking about the subject at hand.
Speaker 1: This is not, you know, something we're talking overarching about
Speaker 1: the Catholic or any other religious faith. Just understand that
Speaker 1: we love everyone except for Nazis. Yeah, lots of things.
Speaker 1: We can't go into that now, okay, so let's go
Speaker 1: into this instead. So our story takes place in the
Speaker 1: little town of Fatima in Portugal. There were in the
Speaker 1: spring of nineteen sixteen or nine seventeen, excuse me, three children.
Speaker 1: It's ten year old Lucia Santos and her cousins, seven
Speaker 1: year old Jacinta and nine year old Francisco Marto. They
Speaker 1: were watching Lucia's father's flock of sheep in an area
Speaker 1: that is locally known as covid Aria. I hope, I
Speaker 1: that's I think that's what I remember hearing it, but
Speaker 1: I could be wrong. But translated that translates to the
Speaker 1: cove of Irene in English. The accounts of their day vary.
Speaker 1: There's a whole as with it. A story like this
Speaker 1: and of this age. There's always variations because they're like
Speaker 1: you know, ten and seven right well, and so most
Speaker 1: of the stories they say that they lead the flock
Speaker 1: to the cove and then they ate their lunch and
Speaker 1: they played. Some versions say they spent time under a
Speaker 1: large tree. Others say that they spent time in a
Speaker 1: cave to avoid a rainstorm. Either way, at around noon,
Speaker 1: the three children said their rosaries their prayers, and at
Speaker 1: that point they said they saw an apparition which was
Speaker 1: bright light that to them looked like lightning. But they
Speaker 1: said that was weird because it wasn't cloudy, which means
Speaker 1: that must not have been raining. Probably I'm thinking this
Speaker 1: is the non rain storm because it was raining, it
Speaker 1: might have just been lightning, right exactly, so, but no, okay,
Speaker 1: So there's so in this accounting, it seems that maybe
Speaker 1: this is a non raining version, so that that bright
Speaker 1: light happens, and in it they see a figure and
Speaker 1: they approached that figure. The figure doesn't immediately identify itself,
Speaker 1: but eventually they would come to to find out that
Speaker 1: Bruce Willis, it's not Bruce Willis. Eventually they would come
Speaker 1: to discover that it was the Virgin Mary, the mother
Speaker 1: of Jesus. She told the children that she wanted them
Speaker 1: to and she gave them a set of instructions. Those
Speaker 1: instructions were to say they're rosaries every day and to
Speaker 1: come back to that location on thet of each month
Speaker 1: for a total of six months, and in exchange, she
Speaker 1: would share not only her identity because at this point
Speaker 1: don't know who she is, but they would She would
Speaker 1: also impart to them knowledge. She would give them some
Speaker 1: visions and then eventually they would ask through their meetings,
Speaker 1: they would then ask, you know, for proof, and then
Speaker 1: that's where the miracle of the sun happened. It was
Speaker 1: on the seventh month. So once Mary has done sharing
Speaker 1: her vision, she rises into the sky and halo of
Speaker 1: bright light and disappears into the distance, and that's their
Speaker 1: first encounter with the Virgin Mary. They do need to
Speaker 1: point out so as Devin briefly mentioned, they are ten,
Speaker 1: nine and seven, so their accountings. How accurate this is,
Speaker 1: it is hard to say. The other problem with it
Speaker 1: is that all of this story primarily and its written
Speaker 1: form comes from Lucia Santos, because she would write down
Speaker 1: an accounting of what happened in her visions twenty some
Speaker 1: years after the fact, so a little bit of fact
Speaker 1: in fiction time. It's hard to piece the two apart um.
Speaker 1: But she said, at least in the accounting, is that
Speaker 1: this was not the first time that the children had
Speaker 1: been visited by an apparition. In the prior year nineteen sixteen,
Speaker 1: they had been visited by an angel on three separate occasions,
Speaker 1: which appears to be in preparation for their meeting with
Speaker 1: Mary screen the Holy screaming that maybe it UM. Now
Speaker 1: I'm gonna I've truncated the heck out of the encounters
Speaker 1: and what was said, and if anybody's interested in that,
Speaker 1: will put a link on the website that has the
Speaker 1: text included. You may also be familiar with UM, a
Speaker 1: televised rendition of this story. Yes that I will not
Speaker 1: say exactly what it is, but you probably have seen it.
Speaker 1: Probably so continuing on UM so that the children hold
Speaker 1: up there into the deal. They pray the rosaries every day,
Speaker 1: and they plan to go back on the thirteenth of
Speaker 1: the month. And they do go back on the thirteenth
Speaker 1: of each month, and people, somehow word gets out about
Speaker 1: what they say they saw. I d told everybody, well
Speaker 1: at least one of them spilled the beans, and then
Speaker 1: word got around, and so witnesses, people who wanted to
Speaker 1: witness what the children were seeing, would show up on
Speaker 1: the thirteenth around noon to see it as well. It's
Speaker 1: unclear to me if anybody besides the children was seeing her.
Speaker 1: The accounts that I've read of this is that lots
Speaker 1: of people kept going back every month and more and
Speaker 1: more all the time, and nobody else ever saw the
Speaker 1: vision Mary besides the kids. That was my understanding as well.
Speaker 1: But it was also my understand that there were a
Speaker 1: number of people who believed that it was okay that
Speaker 1: they weren't being given the gift of seeing the kids
Speaker 1: interact with her or whatever was like proof enough that
Speaker 1: it was actually happening in their eyes at least. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Some people were also like, I can't see here, what's
Speaker 1: going on? Yeah, there's nothing going on here that's obviously
Speaker 1: not real, and they'd leave it off. Yeah, I guess
Speaker 1: I'm making if it is really you know, what's the
Speaker 1: point of being here? If you know she's not going
Speaker 1: to show yourself to me, I might as well go
Speaker 1: ahead and read about it later. Yeah, it's very time
Speaker 1: standing around here. Yeah. So, through these encounters, Mary would
Speaker 1: eventually share the visions with the children. Visions one and
Speaker 1: two where the visions of what heaven looked like and
Speaker 1: what hell looked like. Vision three is weird, and it
Speaker 1: didn't come out till the She didn't write and tell
Speaker 1: share what it was Lucia until the mid forties, maybe
Speaker 1: the late mid I thought it was like but the
Speaker 1: Church didn't release it until the sixties. Yeah, I thought
Speaker 1: it was like late thirties, but I could be wrong. Yeah. Again,
Speaker 1: I'm not sure, because the church sealed it right away
Speaker 1: and they wouldn't let it out because of course it
Speaker 1: was time sensitive, I guess because it was talked about
Speaker 1: the war, like you know, World War Two at that time.
Speaker 1: But it what's really weird about it is that it
Speaker 1: talks about the role of Russia in the world, and
Speaker 1: how if they I'm in my interpretation or understanding of this,
Speaker 1: how if they didn't take on Catholicism properly, they were
Speaker 1: going to lead the world down a wrong path? What's
Speaker 1: they kind of did? She was right well in the
Speaker 1: way she was, but a lot of people have interpreted
Speaker 1: her message and there's been ridicule of this third message.
Speaker 1: So I don't know what to think of it. It's
Speaker 1: very confusing to me, but I'm not very good with
Speaker 1: with these kind of theology things. So well, the thing
Speaker 1: about it is is that if she did indeed right
Speaker 1: it twenty years later, and I think she did that,
Speaker 1: it was well known by that point at what that
Speaker 1: what path Russia was on, So it's kind of it
Speaker 1: doesn't look that miraculous, like that miraculous of prediction really,
Speaker 1: even though lots of it came true. Well you know, uh,
Speaker 1: you read the papers, you get an idea you're writing, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it would be miraculous if in nineteen seventeen, though the
Speaker 1: Russian Revolution was happening and nobody knew that it was
Speaker 1: going to turn out to be hell on Earth and
Speaker 1: the way it did, right yeah, yeah, which and maybe
Speaker 1: maybe when she first wrote it, maybe she wrote had
Speaker 1: a version of early memo of it, and that's why
Speaker 1: the church seal didn't said, you can't write all this
Speaker 1: till later on. I have no idea. And the recording
Speaker 1: of it again, there are so many versions that it
Speaker 1: makes it really tough. Yeah, okay, I mean that we've
Speaker 1: started to fall down a is theological, Yeah, it is.
Speaker 1: It's a theological rabbit hole. We started to fall down that,
Speaker 1: and I think we need to kind of dance around
Speaker 1: that because that's not really the focus of the episode.
Speaker 1: The miracle of the sun itself is um. So this
Speaker 1: is uh. The children were told that on the thirteenth
Speaker 1: of October seventeen, that would have been the seventh month, right,
Speaker 1: that would be the seventh month, really really badass in
Speaker 1: her own work. To quote her directly, she didn't use
Speaker 1: that word. She did. Yeah, she was gonna make a
Speaker 1: miracle happen at noon. Yeah. Okay. So like with the appearances,
Speaker 1: the early visits of Mary, when the children we were
Speaker 1: talking about, people were showing up, A bunch of people
Speaker 1: showed up because this miracle. They blabbed and told everybody.
Speaker 1: We don't know how many people were really there. The
Speaker 1: it is recorded as somewhere between ten thousand and one
Speaker 1: hundred thousand people were there a lot. Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't know how big the covid irene was, but
Speaker 1: it seems to me it wasn't big enough for d Yeah,
Speaker 1: I really I don't. I don't think it could have
Speaker 1: sat that many. And that's like a hundred times more
Speaker 1: listeners than we have, so I don't think, yeah, that's
Speaker 1: not possible. I think that doesn't. That actually took me
Speaker 1: off as three three annoying little kids and had more listeners.
Speaker 1: But but no. So so all of these people show
Speaker 1: up to witness the miracle and accounts say, okay, again,
Speaker 1: this is where it varies. Either it started reigning the
Speaker 1: night before or the morning of the predicted miracle, but
Speaker 1: the rain would stop just before noon. The ground was
Speaker 1: wet with from the rain. And there are photos and
Speaker 1: you see people with umbrellas, but I think I've only
Speaker 1: seen one photo actually where people had umbrellas. I've seen
Speaker 1: two or three, but you know, it's it's not a
Speaker 1: time and an air where people had umbrellas with them.
Speaker 1: You know, it's part of fashion. So it's hard to say,
Speaker 1: but it looks like a clear day to me in
Speaker 1: those images. It doesn't look like it's cloudy. It actually
Speaker 1: kind of looks like a nice, bright sunny day, to
Speaker 1: be very honest. Sports ago, I understand the whether there
Speaker 1: was kind of nice. Yeah, and at that time of
Speaker 1: years we'll talk about later. It's not really a bad season.
Speaker 1: But regardless of what the weather was at noon, everyone
Speaker 1: looked up towards the sun because it was clear baby
Speaker 1: that so they looked up at the sun to see
Speaker 1: the miracle take place. And here's what they say they saw.
Speaker 1: People say they the sun appear as an opaque spinning
Speaker 1: disc in the sky. That the spinning wheel of death.
Speaker 1: I got on my computer sometimes. Yeah, but it goes
Speaker 1: much faster than that, so it doesn't have all the
Speaker 1: colors obvious. No, so it was a spinning disc in
Speaker 1: the sky. It was said to be significantly duller than normal,
Speaker 1: and it also supposedly cast multi colored lights on everything,
Speaker 1: so the landscape, the people, the surrounding clouds. Uh. The
Speaker 1: sun was also reported to koreem towards the landscape and
Speaker 1: the people, and then to bounce around in the surrounding
Speaker 1: or sky before going back to its normal position. The
Speaker 1: previously wet clothes of people who were there, as well
Speaker 1: as the ground from the rainstorm they were wet, dried
Speaker 1: out because the sun got closer and so it got
Speaker 1: warm and it dried them all out, so it was
Speaker 1: suddenly incompletely dry. But just like the earlier visions, not
Speaker 1: all of the people who were there say they a
Speaker 1: something happened. Some of the a lot of them would
Speaker 1: report one of those things, but not all of those things.
Speaker 1: But a great many people also said I didn't see anything,
Speaker 1: so I'm not insure entirely sure either. How long this
Speaker 1: whole thing lasted. Did it take a minute, did it
Speaker 1: take ten We don't know. But the people who were there,
Speaker 1: a great majority of them were convinced that it truly
Speaker 1: was a miracle proabn for ten minutes straight. I really
Speaker 1: hope that's really bad for you. Don't do that. We
Speaker 1: just had an eclipse. Everybody knows sun safety, good glasses,
Speaker 1: don't stare at the sun. Don't do it because it
Speaker 1: embarrasses the sun. Staring as rude. Good. So a lot
Speaker 1: of the information that we have about the miracle of
Speaker 1: the Sun was done because an Italian priest named father,
Speaker 1: Oh God help me here, John Demarci, Right, marcias the
Speaker 1: middle of the still allibles always just say it like
Speaker 1: I'm saying, Luigi, John Demarci. I mean, honestly, yes, we'll
Speaker 1: go with that. Sorry. So John de Marchi would research
Speaker 1: the miracle of the Sun, and he would interview a
Speaker 1: whole bunch of people who were there that day. Sadly,
Speaker 1: he didn't start doing this until six years after the fact,
Speaker 1: which is kind of a long time to get their
Speaker 1: stories straight. To let him grow. If you wander him, write,
Speaker 1: your stories will always grow. So he spent about seven
Speaker 1: years researching the miracle, and he actually wrote more than
Speaker 1: one book about it. But I'm going to take a
Speaker 1: couple of quotes of what people said they saw, and
Speaker 1: we're gonna share him here just so you can get it.
Speaker 1: Kind of a direct quote idea. I want you to
Speaker 1: to help me. So who wants to start? You want
Speaker 1: me to start? When you want can start. The Sun,
Speaker 1: at one moment, surrounded with scarlet flame, at another are
Speaker 1: old in yellow and deep purple, seemed to be an
Speaker 1: exceedingly swift and whirling movement, and at times appearing to
Speaker 1: be loose from the sky and to be approaching the
Speaker 1: earth strongly radiating heat. Nice, I'll do the next one,
Speaker 1: all right. The Sun's disc did not remain a mobile.
Speaker 1: This was not the sparkling of a heavenly body, for
Speaker 1: it spun round on itself in a mad whirld. When
Speaker 1: suddenly a clamor was heard from all the people. The sun,
Speaker 1: whirling seemed to loosen itself from the firmament and advance,
Speaker 1: threatening upon the earth, as if to crash to crush
Speaker 1: us with its huge fiery weight. The sensation during those
Speaker 1: moments was terrible. Mushrooms. Oh okay, my turn, I feel
Speaker 1: incapable of describing what I saw. I looked fixedly at
Speaker 1: the Sun, which seemed pale and did not hurt my eyes,
Speaker 1: looking like a ball of snow. Revolving on itself. It
Speaker 1: suddenly seemed to come down in a zigzag, menacing the earth. Terrified,
Speaker 1: I ran and hid myself among the people who are
Speaker 1: weeping and expecting the end of the world at any
Speaker 1: moment unquote. Yeah, So if I gotta say, you know,
Speaker 1: when the sun's crashing into the earth, I'm just gonna
Speaker 1: go hide in the crowd. That'll save me. I So
Speaker 1: there's yeah, no, I mean, but this kind of gives
Speaker 1: you an idea of the way, at least in their
Speaker 1: account recollections words things in their recollections, how they remembered
Speaker 1: what they saw and felt. So the Catholic Church, as
Speaker 1: we said, would eventually come to recognize and accept the
Speaker 1: miracle of the sun. They categorize it as an event
Speaker 1: of genuine supernatural character. That's evidently how their categorization. Catholics
Speaker 1: speak yep for miracles. This obviously, though, didn't happen right away.
Speaker 1: The Catholics, they actually going to have to look in Yeah,
Speaker 1: they actually investigate stuff crazy. But in nineteen thirty Pope
Speaker 1: Pious the eleventh would approve the whole thing. What's kind
Speaker 1: of funny, though, is that in nineteen fifty Pope Pious
Speaker 1: the twelfth, because it was Pious the eleventh and thirty,
Speaker 1: and then I think Pious the eleventh died in their
Speaker 1: nine so the twelve came on, so Pious the twelfth.
Speaker 1: Though in nineteen fifty he actually said that he also
Speaker 1: saw the miracle of the Sun in nineteen fifty while
Speaker 1: he was, you know, walking around. I can't remember what
Speaker 1: religious ceremony he was at, but he walked and he
Speaker 1: was in front of the statue of our Lady of Lards.
Speaker 1: I believes how you pronounced that one when he witnessed it,
Speaker 1: And he witnessed it three days in a row, which
Speaker 1: is funny, Like, hey, I want to get on the bandwagon.
Speaker 1: I want to see a way more needs something you
Speaker 1: people do like it just seems a weird thing to
Speaker 1: forty years later, suddenly claimed to start seeing well, Pope
Speaker 1: Pius the twelve had a different name, and it was
Speaker 1: Pope the Overachiever. They called him. That did they um?
Speaker 1: All right, so let's go back to the day of
Speaker 1: the event. Though after everything settled down, everyone seems to
Speaker 1: have left and gone back of their lives as normal. Sadly,
Speaker 1: for Jacinta and Francisco Marto, they came down with influenza
Speaker 1: and died in nineteen nineteen. A lot of people we've
Speaker 1: talked about Lucia Santo's would end up devoting the rest
Speaker 1: of her life to religion. She lived as a sister
Speaker 1: until her death in two thousand and five. So she
Speaker 1: lived well into her nineties something like that. Yeah, she
Speaker 1: lived an amazingly long life. Um. And so that leads
Speaker 1: us with a question of you know what happened he did?
Speaker 1: Did people really see your miracle on that day in
Speaker 1: October nineteen seventeen or did they not. We're gonna look
Speaker 1: into it, but first we're gonna take a quick break,
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Speaker 1: a miracle. Alright, So theory time really is going to
Speaker 1: break down very simply into two theories. It's real or
Speaker 1: it's not. Okay, pretty much. That's really the only two
Speaker 1: directions this can go. So first off, let's be honest
Speaker 1: here and admit that none of us really actually know
Speaker 1: how deities work. And it is entirely possible, especially from
Speaker 1: a believer's perspective, that the Virgin Mary could have the
Speaker 1: power to alter human senses. So if you follow that
Speaker 1: train of logic, then it's possible that the sun did
Speaker 1: not actually move in the sky, but she made it
Speaker 1: appear to do that, which would be the equivalent of
Speaker 1: a heavenly parlor trick. I mean, that's that's it's a
Speaker 1: vision at that point, absolutely. I mean obviously in that
Speaker 1: sense too, it's real that that the sun really zigzag
Speaker 1: and come closer to the Earth. Well, obviously it didn't
Speaker 1: because billions of people would have seen that, correct. But still,
Speaker 1: you know, if the version of Mary, as you said,
Speaker 1: can actually make everybody see the same thing, it's akin
Speaker 1: to a mass hallucination. You know, you'll all be given
Speaker 1: the same thing, except of course not everybody saw it,
Speaker 1: but maybe it was customized to the level of the believer,
Speaker 1: and you know where you worthy of receiving it or not.
Speaker 1: We we we honestly can't say that we know the
Speaker 1: answer to that, right. One of the things that makes
Speaker 1: it look like not maybe so much is the well
Speaker 1: we've talked about this little bit, is that there's the
Speaker 1: photos and it looks like a bright sunny day. Problem
Speaker 1: is with the photos is we don't actually we don't
Speaker 1: know when they were taken. I always presumed at the
Speaker 1: beginning that those were taken before of the miracle, but
Speaker 1: we don't actually know if those photos weren't taken after
Speaker 1: the miracle had taken place. So that might explain why
Speaker 1: it's not wet while the people kneeling on the ground,
Speaker 1: because the ground is dried. They've dried, the sun has
Speaker 1: come out and is super bright. It happened the photos
Speaker 1: were taken afterwards, or they could have been taken long afterwards,
Speaker 1: because I mean, the you know, this didn't become a
Speaker 1: big story until after And that's one probably reporters and
Speaker 1: photographers studied going up there. Well, they were all their
Speaker 1: pre before the actual reporters because because word had spread
Speaker 1: across the country, across Portugal, so people came from all
Speaker 1: over the country. That's how we got to this summer
Speaker 1: between ten to a hundred thousand visitors, and part of
Speaker 1: those guys were part of the press. They also might
Speaker 1: be part of the problem, and they're the ones who
Speaker 1: were spreading the rumors of the size of the event.
Speaker 1: So it made That's why I say, I don't I
Speaker 1: mean probably know there was a thousand people there. I
Speaker 1: don't know, but there were reporters there who gave firsthand
Speaker 1: account reports was a decent little crowd, and no doubt
Speaker 1: it was exaggerated. That happens. Yeah, I mean, so that's
Speaker 1: really what I have here. I don't know if you
Speaker 1: guys have any more to add to the what could
Speaker 1: make it have actually been a real event. Well, I mean,
Speaker 1: when it comes down to it, there's no it's hard
Speaker 1: to like argue this right because we don't have proof. Clearly,
Speaker 1: the classic Catholic Church feels there proof is strong enough
Speaker 1: because they do. I mean, Joe was saying, like they
Speaker 1: really do actually investigate and actually try to find proof
Speaker 1: of these things, and you know, from multiple sources. But really,
Speaker 1: when it comes down to it, it's real just means
Speaker 1: hey take on faith that this deity did this thing right.
Speaker 1: So it's much easier to say, here's all of the
Speaker 1: reasons we think it's fake, but it could be real
Speaker 1: if you believe in that sort of thing. And I
Speaker 1: read there's one side. I know, I shared it with
Speaker 1: you guys that read. I at first thought it was
Speaker 1: it was on the side of this whole thing was fake,
Speaker 1: And it turned out I very quickly learned it was
Speaker 1: a debunking of the debunking of the story, and it
Speaker 1: actually yeah, and it had a whole lot of stuff
Speaker 1: of you know, information from the Bible and from scriptures
Speaker 1: to prove to counteract the negative claims were made. And
Speaker 1: the problem, I would say that the problem, but the
Speaker 1: difficulty is, of course, how do you say that that's
Speaker 1: not right? Because I don't know. So that's that's why
Speaker 1: this isn't interesting, right, is because we can well, I know,
Speaker 1: we're about to talk about here's all the reasons we
Speaker 1: think it's not it's not real. But yeah, there are
Speaker 1: plenty of people out there who have, you know, evidence
Speaker 1: or their version of evidence or whatever. It's a leap
Speaker 1: of faith. Yeah, that's what miracles are. Yes, and yeah, exactly,
Speaker 1: and so like the just a mere fact that all
Speaker 1: these people went there expecting to see it, they were,
Speaker 1: you know, wanting to see it, and they saw it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there you go, like you say, But that's where the
Speaker 1: others as not real. I am not about to disagree
Speaker 1: with the Vatican. So you guys are you guys are
Speaker 1: on your own? Okay, Well, from here on out, we're
Speaker 1: solo without Joe's I think it's just you because I
Speaker 1: also would like not to get killed by the Vatican.
Speaker 1: Find you too, I'll finish this one on my own,
Speaker 1: going ahead and leave, okay, not really Okay, Well, let's
Speaker 1: go on to the second theory, though, which is that
Speaker 1: it did not actually happen. Comes home first and foremost.
Speaker 1: I think we all know that the sun does not
Speaker 1: normally move radically through the sky, and as Joe said earlier,
Speaker 1: nobody else on the planet or even the surrounding countryside
Speaker 1: reported seeing the sun fly all over. Yeah. I would
Speaker 1: think that it would be pretty obvious. So that is
Speaker 1: an immediate strike against the story. Uh. If you remember
Speaker 1: I talked about supposedly there was a big rainstorm right
Speaker 1: before and how it ended just before the miracle. Well,
Speaker 1: I actually was able to pull historical rainfall records from
Speaker 1: the area. Turns out, in nineteen seventeen, in that area
Speaker 1: of Portugal, they got a total of thirty three millimeters,
Speaker 1: which is about an inch and a half of rain
Speaker 1: that month, and the month before it was only nine
Speaker 1: millimeters or point three five of an inch. So the
Speaker 1: accounting say the ground was sodden from all of the
Speaker 1: rain that fell. Well, that seems to me like that
Speaker 1: would that would take a lot more rain than what's
Speaker 1: listed here. And this is the rain over the course
Speaker 1: of a month. I don't know, I mean technically, yes,
Speaker 1: of course of a month. It could have all been
Speaker 1: one one rainy day. Fair And granted we live in
Speaker 1: a pretty rainy place, and you know, an inch and
Speaker 1: a half of rain doesn't sound like a ton, but uh,
Speaker 1: you know, you remember, like the first rain after a
Speaker 1: big drought, how the ground just doesn't soak anything up.
Speaker 1: It's just kind of like sits on top of it
Speaker 1: for a little bit. I mean, you know, it's possible
Speaker 1: if it was a kind of a droughty time. But
Speaker 1: I agree, I think it's I just think the accounts
Speaker 1: of this, this torrential rain storm might be a bit overblown.
Speaker 1: Well here's another thing to think about, is if they
Speaker 1: don't get a lot of rain there an inch of
Speaker 1: rain or even a half of inch of rain. It's
Speaker 1: one day. That seems like a lot, right, But but
Speaker 1: to us it seems like nothing. True, So that's possible
Speaker 1: to actual even for us. And an inch and half
Speaker 1: in a day is a substantial amount, I suppose. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we just got a whole bunch of it today and
Speaker 1: it came down and just droves. Yeah, so let's let's
Speaker 1: keep talking. We've we've talked about the photos a couple
Speaker 1: of times. I do want to point out one thing
Speaker 1: to everybody, which is when you look up the Miracle
Speaker 1: of the Sun online, you will find a photo out
Speaker 1: there that was found in the nineteen fifties that is
Speaker 1: taken on the day of the Miracle of the Sun.
Speaker 1: At least it says it was taken on the day
Speaker 1: of the Miracle of the Sun. And the sun looks weird,
Speaker 1: almost looks like somebody's put a twirl blur filter on
Speaker 1: the Sun. It's kind of it's kind of turns on itself.
Speaker 1: Take a little photoshopping, might have got down. No, it's
Speaker 1: actually not of that day. It is of a solar eclipse.
Speaker 1: So it is a weird light effect caused by the
Speaker 1: solar eclipse that happened many years later. So if you
Speaker 1: see that, and like I kept seeing the same one,
Speaker 1: come up where someone I love this when people get
Speaker 1: into MS paint or whatever and they draw the arrow
Speaker 1: and then they it's it'sn't red and the text isn't
Speaker 1: red on top of it, kept same one over and
Speaker 1: over and over, but it is it is not from
Speaker 1: that time. So I would just want to have you
Speaker 1: understand that from from the outset. Well, you'll be happy
Speaker 1: to know that MS paint no longer exists. Yes, I
Speaker 1: am actually very happy about that. Uh So here's here's
Speaker 1: another explanation of why this might not be real and
Speaker 1: what people saw. This is a good explanation of what
Speaker 1: people saw, which putting it very simply is staring at
Speaker 1: the sun is bad for you and you shouldn't do it.
Speaker 1: We've all looked at the sun momentarily by accident, and
Speaker 1: you get that burned after image of the sun on
Speaker 1: your retinas, and then you know, you look around and
Speaker 1: that spot moves around. So it is entirely possible that
Speaker 1: these people were staring at the sun in anticipation, well
Speaker 1: past the point of normal sanity and when it affected
Speaker 1: their eyes. So when they were looking around the sun
Speaker 1: seemed to change and or move, and believe it or not,
Speaker 1: there are actually accounts out there of people who in
Speaker 1: some um some religious event, we're told to stare at
Speaker 1: the sun to receive some message, and they stared at
Speaker 1: it way too long, and a couple of people have
Speaker 1: gone blind, but a lot but more of them have
Speaker 1: actually suffered serious vision damage. Can't you stare at the sun?
Speaker 1: Because I've never stared at it for more than a
Speaker 1: millisecond myself, I think, yeah, I think that if you
Speaker 1: stare at it for a minute, you're in trouble unless
Speaker 1: you use your hand to kind of block it out
Speaker 1: a little bit of it and you're getting that that
Speaker 1: light bend things. Don't do that. I'm sorry. I knew
Speaker 1: a guy when I was in school. He was arc welding,
Speaker 1: and he was arc welding without the mass and he
Speaker 1: did it for about a minute and a half and
Speaker 1: he burned his eyes and he had to lay around
Speaker 1: with you know, his eyes closed and cold compresses on
Speaker 1: his eyes for about a week. He never did it again.
Speaker 1: I didn't think he was smart as trying to start with,
Speaker 1: but he never did it again. I mean, he was
Speaker 1: lucky that he didn't do serious lasting damage to his eyes. So,
Speaker 1: but if you think about it, that would then tell
Speaker 1: you why these people are seeing these things. You know
Speaker 1: why it seems to move and grow and dance around,
Speaker 1: the dance around the skies as you looked at that
Speaker 1: after images moving around, and you know it's that dog
Speaker 1: of if you, if you are a true believer enough,
Speaker 1: you will be given the vision. So that encourages these
Speaker 1: people to do it longer than they really should have.
Speaker 1: Is doc moother right term for that? I don't know that. Actually,
Speaker 1: dogma might not be the right term there. Yeah, maybe not.
Speaker 1: I'll strike the word dogma from the record. I just
Speaker 1: put something or another. Yes, there we go. Um okay.
Speaker 1: Next up in this theory section, and this is pretty
Speaker 1: simple and easy to riff on, is um group speaker
Speaker 1: that that mass belief group think. People are going, oh
Speaker 1: my god, do you see that next thing? And everybody's
Speaker 1: like ticking. No, I must be okay, yeah, I must
Speaker 1: not be blessed enough yeah to see something right, Oh dang,
Speaker 1: don't want to seem unblessed. Well, yeah, of course, yeah
Speaker 1: I see it. Yeah, Oh my gosh, it's spinning right
Speaker 1: at me. It's so scary it's it's the same thing
Speaker 1: is that you see. You guys have read about or
Speaker 1: seeing those experiments where people will be in the city
Speaker 1: and they'll just stare at the top of a building
Speaker 1: and then people crowd around him, and slowly they build
Speaker 1: the crowd and then let's walk away, and the crowd
Speaker 1: will just actually because they're all trying to figure out
Speaker 1: what's out there. The one I like is the one
Speaker 1: in the waiting room where they like, every time a
Speaker 1: noises made, everybody stands up, and then they introduced like
Speaker 1: one person and everybody else gets called into the doctor's office,
Speaker 1: and that person is still like habitually standing up and
Speaker 1: down as the noises being made, even though they have
Speaker 1: no idea why they're doing it. It's crazy. Humans are crazy,
Speaker 1: and he never thinks to ask, like, why are you
Speaker 1: people standing up? Yeah, we easily, we easily follow instruction.
Speaker 1: It turns out it doesn't even have to be an
Speaker 1: actual instruction. We just mirror people's behavior. That's kind of scary. Yeah. Um,
Speaker 1: So the next two parts of this are more they're
Speaker 1: less addressing the movement of the sun and more they're
Speaker 1: talking about that reported color changing. Because if you remember
Speaker 1: the people reported the sun seemed much paler than normal,
Speaker 1: and then there's the color changes that are going on.
Speaker 1: One count or one set of reporting says that possibly
Speaker 1: what's going on is that sand from the Sahara Desert
Speaker 1: is pulled up into the atmosphere and then blown across
Speaker 1: at that time at that place, so it's blotting out
Speaker 1: the sun. And then as that, you know, as it
Speaker 1: thins out, the silica or the crystalline structure of the
Speaker 1: sand is actually creating reflections or refractions of the lights.
Speaker 1: It's acting like a prism. And that could but be
Speaker 1: what these people are seeing that are causing these big
Speaker 1: bands of color or these these casts of color on
Speaker 1: not only the clouds, but maybe the people in the
Speaker 1: ground around them. What about like, I mean, this happens
Speaker 1: in Portland a lot where it'll be raining, but you
Speaker 1: look up and you're like, there's not a cloud above me,
Speaker 1: and what's going on? And then you look at this
Speaker 1: sun you go, oh, look at that cool rainbow dancing
Speaker 1: around over there. I mean, what about something like that,
Speaker 1: especially if it had been raining prior and we will
Speaker 1: that's actually the next up in this section. Oh we
Speaker 1: got that dog not Yeah, Well, the one thing I
Speaker 1: do want to say real quick though about the whole
Speaker 1: duster sand thing, is that if that was what it was,
Speaker 1: I would expect to have found more accounts of this
Speaker 1: kind of colored light. Yeah. But the thing about it is, though,
Speaker 1: is that, you know, you would think it would happen
Speaker 1: more often, not just that one day. But let's say
Speaker 1: there was an especially you know, big sandstorm that day
Speaker 1: and conditions were sets that way more than usually got
Speaker 1: sucked up into the jet stream or whatever. But the
Speaker 1: fact that and the fact of the matter is is
Speaker 1: that people all over the place in Portugal, Spain, wherever
Speaker 1: it could have seen this, but everybody else was just
Speaker 1: doing their jobs or else they were taking a napsis
Speaker 1: or whatever. You know, only in this one place where
Speaker 1: there are thousands of people standing there staring up in
Speaker 1: the sky. You know, although I will say that it's
Speaker 1: a pretty incredible coincidence that that giant sandstorm happened to happen.
Speaker 1: Maybe that's the miracle. Maybe it was the miracle, and
Speaker 1: that was America is a natural miracle. Yeah, maybe maybe not,
Speaker 1: I don't know. So let's move to what Joe was
Speaker 1: just talking about. The sun dogs, which helped me out here.
Speaker 1: Do either of you know how to print par helion?
Speaker 1: I believe is that that's that's the kind of event
Speaker 1: that a sun dog is. So those of you who
Speaker 1: don't know, sun dogs are kind of a rainbow. But
Speaker 1: they happen in rings around the sun. They form rings
Speaker 1: or halos where and they only happen when there's sufficient
Speaker 1: ice crystals in the upper atmosphere too. Again, just like
Speaker 1: with the sand theory, refract and reflect the light and
Speaker 1: turn it kind of into a prism effect. And by
Speaker 1: the way, the moon does it off also occasionally. Usually,
Speaker 1: but they're they're pretty hard to see. Yeah, I'm some
Speaker 1: pretty good ones that they stood out pretty good. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: but yeah, I mean it's but it's the same effect
Speaker 1: that there's enough cold ice crystals up there to to
Speaker 1: create that, hey, or the prism effect. Uh. And sometimes
Speaker 1: sun dogs will fully circle the sun. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I think I showed you guys that photo I took
Speaker 1: several years back where I've actually got had to hold
Speaker 1: up my hand in front of my camera to block
Speaker 1: out the sun and then you can see the full
Speaker 1: degree ring. And sun dogs typically they start out uh God,
Speaker 1: is I think they Yeah, they start out they cycle
Speaker 1: from orange in the center and then they go out
Speaker 1: towards blue as they get farther away from the center
Speaker 1: of the circle. Yeah, but there are also other ones
Speaker 1: which are much cooler looking, and these have to be
Speaker 1: at a perfect degree angle apparently. But on the left
Speaker 1: and the right side you'll get these giant arcs that
Speaker 1: are super bright and so they're kind of a warped
Speaker 1: diamond shape and they are phenomenal. I saw a photo
Speaker 1: not but three weeks ago, and it was somebody up
Speaker 1: on some ski slope and everybody at slope just stopped
Speaker 1: because it was just so bright and so clear, and
Speaker 1: there's just really cool sun dog. So that kind of
Speaker 1: thing is the other one that people are like, Listen,
Speaker 1: maybe the sun moving around wasn't real, but maybe people
Speaker 1: really did see colors, but not knowing how to explain it,
Speaker 1: that's what they say. Well, maybe it was a combination
Speaker 1: of a couple of things, right, I mean, I think
Speaker 1: it's safe to say it's possible that it was a
Speaker 1: sun dog or something like that. Again, do sun dogs
Speaker 1: typically happen at noontime? Yeah? Yeah, sun dogs are not
Speaker 1: as far. I mean, the one that I saw like
Speaker 1: around noon it just you know, in general, maybe it
Speaker 1: was or whatever. Again, a pretty big coincidence and lucky
Speaker 1: for those kids that something happened on that day. But um,
Speaker 1: but you know, and then a combination with a bunch
Speaker 1: of people being like, oh my god, that's so cool,
Speaker 1: that's that's a miracle and staring at the sun even more,
Speaker 1: and then you know, it's it kind of helps explain
Speaker 1: why some people maybe didn't see anything because they were like,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to look at the sun, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: glance at it, and they didn't see any thing. Other
Speaker 1: people saw these dancing things because they were staring at
Speaker 1: the sun and burning their eyes, and other people just
Speaker 1: saw light. And I mean, I don't know if that
Speaker 1: helps explain all the different experience it could, you know,
Speaker 1: doing things differently, because people always do different things differently
Speaker 1: from one another, even an event like that. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's that old thing if we could all go to,
Speaker 1: you know, see a speaker talk and only one of
Speaker 1: us might see the bird that lands on the side
Speaker 1: of the stage because we're looking here and there, I'm
Speaker 1: doing something or I'm drinking my coke or whatever it is.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean, it's possible that that's why there
Speaker 1: are all those different accounts. I the sun Dog is
Speaker 1: the only thing that I can really get behind in
Speaker 1: this entire story. I think that it's an amazing, amazing
Speaker 1: coincidence that all of these people were here, as we
Speaker 1: said before, maybe that's the real miracles that they all
Speaker 1: happen to be in one place at the right time
Speaker 1: to see it. Oh yeah, and just an amazing and
Speaker 1: coincidence or or and uh, you know, I think this
Speaker 1: has some supports that we'll see as little friends, Francisco Marto,
Speaker 1: we're actually little entrepreneurs that they were selling kool aid
Speaker 1: at that at the place that they want and let's
Speaker 1: say the mushroom with mushroom mushrooms, and so I think
Speaker 1: that you know, that's what it was. It was air
Speaker 1: got ergo, Yeah, I got because everybody came and they
Speaker 1: had to eat the bread, and everyone was like, we're
Speaker 1: doing we're going a new communion. So here's your little
Speaker 1: pieces of bread, and everybody got like a little high
Speaker 1: and then yeah, well yeah, if if if there were,
Speaker 1: if there actually that's conceivable, even though again it's a
Speaker 1: remarkable coincidence, but it's conceivable because then that explains why
Speaker 1: some people didn't experience it because some people would have
Speaker 1: brought their own bread, you know, far away, and other
Speaker 1: people ate some bots of bread locally and ate it
Speaker 1: and and got hot. Yeah, gott have been something like that,
Speaker 1: and and some people know and some people are going
Speaker 1: to eat more bread and get a bigger dose, you know.
Speaker 1: And so that would explain why there was a big
Speaker 1: variety and what people saw. Some people really saw a
Speaker 1: lot of wild stuff, and some people not quite so much,
Speaker 1: and again some not at all. So I don't even
Speaker 1: I don't even know that you necessarily want to pin
Speaker 1: it on her or the other two children. But it
Speaker 1: could be that somebody was there selling something and it
Speaker 1: was you know, it'd gone south. Yeah, a lot of
Speaker 1: things go bad and have the hustory effects on people
Speaker 1: back in those days and the days before refrigeration. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it's hard. It's hard to say exactly what happened
Speaker 1: that day because I know that all the research has
Speaker 1: been done on it. Uh. And there was a guy
Speaker 1: named Kevin mclu who wrote a book about this, like
Speaker 1: you know, back in the eighties, and he saw just
Speaker 1: about all the accounts and he said he'd never seen
Speaker 1: some many contradictory statements as about what happened there. So
Speaker 1: it's really kind of hard to say exactly what happened,
Speaker 1: whether it's a miracle or not. It's hard to say
Speaker 1: even what happened. You know. It's weird. Yeah, it picks.
Speaker 1: It turns out I picked two stories in a row
Speaker 1: that have the same flaw in them, because last episode
Speaker 1: that I did was the t w A story. All
Speaker 1: those conflicting witness stories. Yeah, I mean that's and that's
Speaker 1: these are you know, ninety years apart or eighty years apart.
Speaker 1: And look, we're having the same problem when we have
Speaker 1: lots and lots of witnesses. Human beings haven't changed that
Speaker 1: I was gonna say that, not that much. They haven't
Speaker 1: changed at all. Yeah, I really haven't changed. I gotta
Speaker 1: say that. During the time all this was happening, in
Speaker 1: the months leading after the big miracle, She's mother was
Speaker 1: actually pretty skeptical herself. Oh yeah, I think she ever
Speaker 1: got She called a childish nonsense, called her her daughter
Speaker 1: nothing but a fake. Actually, her family once she was
Speaker 1: an adult, they they kind of semi disowned her because
Speaker 1: they're like, oh yeah, no, she she lives in a
Speaker 1: fantasy land, Like they really went against her that whole time. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that was a friar who knew who really well, his
Speaker 1: name was, what was his name? Mario di Alveda. Olivera
Speaker 1: gave an interview to the UK Sunday Times in two
Speaker 1: thousand and talked about her she was still alive at
Speaker 1: the time and if she died as she said in
Speaker 1: two thousand five, and he said that she experienced religious hallucinations,
Speaker 1: and he also said that she lives in the delirious
Speaker 1: world of infantile fantasies. Uh. And this is like, you know,
Speaker 1: again fairly recently, and this is somebody who knew her well. Uh,
Speaker 1: it might just be that just the power of suggestion.
Speaker 1: All these people came there expecting and wanting to see
Speaker 1: a miracle, and so damn it they you know, most
Speaker 1: of us saw something well, and and her, the way
Speaker 1: that she clung to it in a way could be
Speaker 1: partially explained by the death of her cousins, because if
Speaker 1: you read the transcripts of what was said between the
Speaker 1: children and Mary, uh, they you know, they ask is
Speaker 1: is Lucia going to go to heaven? Is Jacinta going
Speaker 1: to go to heaven? And all and Francisco or wait,
Speaker 1: is thesnesscouh And she says, yes he will, but he's
Speaker 1: got a prey to his rosaries a lot. And then
Speaker 1: but in that text, it's hinted at that those two children,
Speaker 1: the younger too, are going to go much sooner than
Speaker 1: she is, and so that there could be some kind of,
Speaker 1: you know, some religious form of survivors guilt there that
Speaker 1: has made her just hang on to it so firmly
Speaker 1: for so long. And then when she has to write
Speaker 1: about it, she may have been so far into it
Speaker 1: that she didn't know what to do. And so because
Speaker 1: her writings, people have said they borrow a lot from
Speaker 1: a lot of other religious scriptures and are kind of
Speaker 1: a repeat of that kind of information. So, I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't know what that says, but I mean, maybe
Speaker 1: she just was so far in that by the time
Speaker 1: she thought maybe I should get out of this, she
Speaker 1: didn't really see a way to to step away from
Speaker 1: it anymore and just had to, you know, fully commit
Speaker 1: I don't know, Yeah, I think yeah, And that and
Speaker 1: it was her deal. I mean, she couldn't really back
Speaker 1: away from it. She couldn't obviously come clean and say
Speaker 1: it was all bus and I just let everybody astray,
Speaker 1: especially when she devoted her life to the church so much. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that that would be really not a good career move. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And also because it turns out, I mean, according to
Speaker 1: look at that that that same friar I was. I
Speaker 1: just mentioned a moment ago Mario Olivia that he also
Speaker 1: said that he believed those two kids died from religious
Speaker 1: fasting and not from the flu. Really yeah, yeah, he
Speaker 1: did say that in the same interview he said, d
Speaker 1: card quit. It could be that they were so weakened
Speaker 1: by fasting that when the flu came along they would
Speaker 1: have survived, but since they were so weak, they died.
Speaker 1: And maybe maybe after all that, after fanatically convincing the
Speaker 1: cousins to the point where while they died, I can't exactly, like,
Speaker 1: you know, say, oh never mind, change my mind, Kevin,
Speaker 1: Do you have any other final thoughts before we wrapped
Speaker 1: this one up? Because I mean, I think I've said
Speaker 1: what I feel it is. I think she saw the
Speaker 1: Virgin Mary. You know, I don't know, I feel like
Speaker 1: we need to say that, Okay, I feel like one
Speaker 1: of us has to be pro her. I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: we can't all say we think she just made the
Speaker 1: whole thing up. We can, I mean, we could. I
Speaker 1: think we just did. But I just don't think. I mean,
Speaker 1: I I think there's a lot tied up in this,
Speaker 1: and I am not willing to say, like, no, she
Speaker 1: definitely didn't see anything, but I'm not willing to say
Speaker 1: that she totally saw everything she said, especially with the
Speaker 1: premonitions and stuff like that. I mean, you know, when
Speaker 1: we say visions, yeah, when you know, I just don't don't.
Speaker 1: I think that probably came later. But I believe that
Speaker 1: they believe they saw something great. One thing about it
Speaker 1: is is, yeah, there are people out there who are
Speaker 1: delusional they sincerely believe what they're what they're saying. But
Speaker 1: there are also people who just say, he doesn't have
Speaker 1: to necessarily be delusional, they just have to have it's
Speaker 1: the words conviction is the word I'm going to use.
Speaker 1: They are very convinced believe and their faith, and that
Speaker 1: is what it is, and that is informing how they're
Speaker 1: seeing and operating in the world. All right, Well, we're
Speaker 1: gonna wrap up on that. So if you have any
Speaker 1: thoughts or theories of your own, you're welcome to share
Speaker 1: that with us. You can do that by sending us
Speaker 1: an email at Thinking Sideways Podcast at gmail dot com.
Speaker 1: We have a website, Thinking sideways podcast dot com where
Speaker 1: we will have this story and some of the links,
Speaker 1: as well as a list of all prior stories. There's
Speaker 1: a separate page for those. We've got merchandise on there
Speaker 1: for shirts and mugs and all that good stuff, so
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Speaker 1: but anyway, if you can rate and review the show,
Speaker 1: please do so. We appreciate that that helps other people
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Speaker 1: you answer all of the questions and then you can
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Speaker 1: where all of the post episode conversations happen the group,
Speaker 1: not the page. I'll give you a hint. The answers
Speaker 1: are yes, I will. And every week there we go perfect, perfect.
Speaker 1: Now you just give it away the keys of the Kingdom.
Speaker 1: Good job. We are also on Twitter Thinking Sideways, where
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Speaker 1: there's also post episode discussions as well as a whole
Speaker 1: bunch of other stuff that happens there. And that's really
Speaker 1: all of it. So I think we're gonna wrap this
Speaker 1: one up and we will talk to everybody next week.
Speaker 1: I'm going to ascend from I'm going to go stare
Speaker 1: at the sun. It's a good thing. It's nighttime right now. Bye, guys.
Speaker 1: Ye