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Speaker 1: You're none class.

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Speaker 2: Go next door.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, at least that's safe.

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Speaker 4: It's a private road. Keep out.

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Speaker 2: Kelsey and I are in a rural area on the

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Speaker 2: outskirts of Lakeland, Florida, looking for a woman named pam Reynolds.

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Speaker 4: Right here, CEO, I get the ledger delivered back here.

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Speaker 2: All we have is her address from nineteen eighty nine,

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Speaker 2: when she was the youngest juror on the Leo Schofield trial.

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Speaker 3: I'm not going to open any gates though, Oh you know'

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Speaker 3: hear any dogs there? Let's give it a try. I'm

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Speaker 3: not hearing anything, Okay.

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Speaker 4: Is this a kind of situation where we want to

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Speaker 4: leave a note or let's just go.

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Speaker 5: Oh hello, yeah, oh, hi sir. My name is Gilbert King,

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Speaker 5: and I'm a writer and I'm looking to see a

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Speaker 5: Pamela Reynolds. Does she live in this neighborhood or.

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Speaker 6: Who are you now?

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Speaker 5: My name is Gilbert King, and I'm a writer and

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Speaker 5: I'm researching a case from the nineteen eighties and there's

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Speaker 5: a woman named Pamela Reynolds who was who served on

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Speaker 5: a trial. And I don't know where she lives, but

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Speaker 5: we've tracked it down to back here. But we couldn't

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Speaker 5: figure out where she might be.

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Speaker 7: Oh, she's not here, right.

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Speaker 2: She was involved in.

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Speaker 5: A very big trial back in nineteen eighty nine.

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Speaker 8: She was, Yeah, she sat on a jury.

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Speaker 5: She was on the jury.

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Speaker 2: By the end of Leo's trial, there were only ten

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Speaker 2: jurors that deliberated and eventually convicted him. Many of these

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Speaker 2: ten jurors were already retired or nearing retirement age during

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Speaker 2: the trial in nineteen eighty nine, so when we tried

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Speaker 2: to track them down thirty years later, we weren't surprised

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Speaker 2: to find that many had passed away. But Pam Reynolds

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Speaker 2: was just twenty two years old when she was called

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Speaker 2: to serve on Leo's trial. We wanted to find her

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Speaker 2: to ask her what went on in that jury room,

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Speaker 2: what made those ten jurors vote to convict Leo?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, very nice, Yeah it is.

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Speaker 2: We find out that the man we are talking to

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Speaker 2: is Pam's dad, Kelsey, and I leave a card with him,

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Speaker 2: but we don't get a call. So we go back

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Speaker 2: to Pam's house a few more times. One time her

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Speaker 2: mom is there and she tells us Pam had a

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Speaker 2: hard time with the trial, has nightmares about it. We

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Speaker 2: aren't sure we'll hear from her. But then one day

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Speaker 2: we get a call and Kelsey goes to meet.

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Speaker 4: Pam Okay, testing, testing, testing.

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Speaker 8: I just need it to the Lakeland Square mall here

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Speaker 8: to meet Pamela Reynolds.

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Speaker 4: She lives one of the jurors that leads trial. And

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Speaker 4: I'm really hoping I can find the quiet space in

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Speaker 4: the mall.

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Speaker 8: Okay, Hi are you, Pamela?

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Speaker 4: I'm good. How are you so cute? How young are you?

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Speaker 7: Oh?

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Speaker 4: Thank you? I'm twenty three?

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Speaker 2: Really?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, well you know you were very young at the trial,

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Speaker 4: oh child?

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Speaker 9: Yeah, that was the way back when I'm the one

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Speaker 9: that I didn't believe in the capital punishment part where

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Speaker 9: you know, you send him up and let him burn

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Speaker 9: and whatever. I just didn't believe in that. And if

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Speaker 9: you think about it, I kind of saved the guy's

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Speaker 9: life if he's going to get all is he getting

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Speaker 9: out or what.

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Speaker 3: Do you?

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Speaker 6: My maness move to have my feels so rustps sorry

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Speaker 6: lists In this valiity, I see relation.

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Speaker 4: Who water.

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Speaker 10: A bride?

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Speaker 9: Dspage to the world, who's holding.

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Speaker 4: The s.

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Speaker 6: To the warm soldings?

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Speaker 2: St Bone Valley Chapter four, Dog with a Bone. When

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Speaker 2: pam is twenty two. She's by far the youngest juror

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Speaker 2: on the case, and she takes her role seriously.

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Speaker 9: Back then, I was more quiet and I took notes.

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Speaker 9: I remember taking notes.

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Speaker 2: She listened to all of the testimony. She watched John

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Speaker 2: Aguero's aggressive theatrics, Jack Edmund's folksy style, She heard about

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Speaker 2: Leo Senior's premonition, Alice Scott's eyewitness testimony, Leo's temper and

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Speaker 2: volatile relationship with Michelle, And after two weeks of testimony,

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Speaker 2: this is what she thought of Leo.

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Speaker 11: I don't know.

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Speaker 9: To me, he just didn't I didn't feel like he

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Speaker 9: did it or whatever.

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Speaker 2: When Kelsey sent me this interview to listen to, I

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Speaker 2: was not expecting to hear that Pam didn't think Leo

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Speaker 2: did it, but she still voted to convict him. I

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Speaker 2: try to imagine Pam going back into the jury room

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Speaker 2: after the trial to deliberate on Leo's case. I can

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Speaker 2: see her sitting at a table surrounded by people she

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Speaker 2: probably considered to be the adults.

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Speaker 12: In the room.

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Speaker 9: It was scary because I was the only young one

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Speaker 9: on the jury too.

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Speaker 2: Pam was told during the jury questioning process that a

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Speaker 2: guilty verdict must be unanimous. She knew that even her

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Speaker 2: single vote to acquit Leo would have been enough to

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Speaker 2: deadlock the jury and trigger a mistrial. When the jury

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Speaker 2: was deliberating, Pam went along with the majority to convict Leo. Then,

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Speaker 2: since the judge Davis read their verdict in court and

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Speaker 2: she watches Leo tell the jury that they've made a

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Speaker 2: big mistake, that he's an innocent man, Pam and the

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Speaker 2: other jurors go back to deliberate again, this time to

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Speaker 2: recommend either life in prison for Leo Schofield or the

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Speaker 2: death penalty. When forced to consider voting to put Leo

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Speaker 2: to death, Pam finds herself outnumbered again, but this time

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Speaker 2: she can't bring herself to go along with the majority.

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Speaker 9: I remember one part where they wanted to send him

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Speaker 9: up to be, you know, on that electric care, but

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Speaker 9: I didn't want it to so they changed that for

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Speaker 9: me because of me. I thought that was interesting.

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Speaker 2: All that was needed to sentence a defendant to death

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Speaker 2: in Florida at the time was a simple majority of jurors.

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Speaker 1: Voting in favor.

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Speaker 2: This is different from a conviction, which requires a unanimous vote.

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Speaker 2: But instead of going along with the Pam speaks her

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Speaker 2: mind and says she doesn't believe Leo should be executed.

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Speaker 2: She thinks the other jurors felt a little sorry for her,

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Speaker 2: or maybe they admire this twenty two year old for

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Speaker 2: sticking to her beliefs. For whatever reason, Pam says, they

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Speaker 2: switched their.

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Speaker 9: Votes, but they changed it for me so that way,

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Speaker 9: you know, it wouldn't bother me. I guess maybe I

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Speaker 9: thought it was nice all those jurors that did that.

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Speaker 2: Instead of voting to send Leo to the electric chair,

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Speaker 2: they vote for life in prison. Pam may be the

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Speaker 2: single most important reason why Leo didn't die in the

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Speaker 2: electric chair.

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Speaker 9: I just hope he gets out if he's you know,

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Speaker 9: I mean for sure, if he's not guilty, I mean

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Speaker 9: they need to get him out of there.

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Speaker 2: I mean thirty years.

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Speaker 11: That's awful for a guy.

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Speaker 12: Shoot.

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Speaker 13: Hi, I'm Jason Flamm, CEO and founder of Lava for

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Speaker 13: Good podcasts, Home to Bone Valley, Wrongful Conviction, The War

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Speaker 13: on Drugs, and many other great podcasts. Today we're asking you,

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Speaker 2: Bone Valley is sponsored by Stand Together. Stand Together is

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Speaker 2: a philanthropic community that partners with America's boldest change makers

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Speaker 2: to tackle the root causes of our country's biggest problems,

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Speaker 2: including the failed War on drugs that has criminalized addiction,

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Speaker 2: fueled over incarceration, and shattered communities. At eleven years old,

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Speaker 2: Scott Strow drank his first beer. At fifteen, Scott went

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Speaker 2: to a mental health facility because of suicidal thoughts, where

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Speaker 2: he tried cocaine. Like many others who experience addiction, Scott

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Speaker 2: was using drugs and alcohol to numb the pain he

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Speaker 2: was trying to numb childhood trauma. In his early twenties,

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Speaker 2: Scott was invited into a boxing gym by a friend.

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Speaker 2: That's where he discovered the healing power of sport and

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Speaker 2: community that helped propel him towards sobriety. In two thousand

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Speaker 2: and six, Scott founded the Phoenix, a free, sober active

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Speaker 2: for their lives through fitness. The program restores compassion to

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Speaker 2: a system that has long relied on locking people up

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Speaker 2: to solve the addiction crisis. Scott Strode as one of

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Speaker 2: many entrepreneurs partnering with Stand Together to drive solutions in education,

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Speaker 2: health care, poverty, and criminal justice. To learn more about

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Speaker 2: addiction and the War on Drugs, listen to The War

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Speaker 2: on Drugs Poser podcast on Apple Podcasts or wherever you

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Speaker 2: get your podcasts.

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Speaker 8: Hitting Record, Testing Testing. All right, ready, Okay, I'm ready.

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Speaker 2: After Kelsey and I read through Leo's transcript, we still

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Speaker 2: don't have a clear picture of the state's theory. There

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Speaker 2: seem to be so many gaps in their timeline from

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Speaker 2: the night Michelle disappeared, So let's break it down.

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Speaker 8: We'll start with the times both the state and the

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Speaker 8: defense agree on. At nine five pm, Leo's at Buddy

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Speaker 8: Anderson's house when he gets the call from Michelle. She

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Speaker 8: says she's clocked off work and is about to drive

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Speaker 8: over in the Mazda and pick him up. Leo tells

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Speaker 8: her to meet him at Vince Rayner's house, should take

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Speaker 8: her about fifteen minutes to get there from Sparky's gas station,

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Speaker 8: where she's calling from.

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Speaker 2: But about three hours later, Michelle still hasn't shown up Vince's,

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Speaker 2: so Leo calls the Sheriff's department. The call went through

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Speaker 2: at twelve forty three am. It's recorded and documented, and

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Speaker 2: Leo can be heard talking with Vince while he's on hold.

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Speaker 10: You're checking the fifty's in jail and not they're going

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Speaker 10: to transform me back to the chefs upon the file

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Speaker 10: and missing chest.

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Speaker 2: Assistant State Attorney John Aguero uses this twelve forty three

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Speaker 2: am call to establish Leo's state of mind that night.

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Speaker 2: He suggests that you can hear the anger in Leo's

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Speaker 2: voice that Leo was so furious at his wife he'd

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Speaker 2: end up stabbing her twenty six times within the hour.

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Speaker 2: Listen closely.

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Speaker 10: I doubt whether says they should be just fucking arm

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Speaker 10: and means he is. God help her, because I can't

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Speaker 10: afford to fucking worry about this kind of little shit.

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Speaker 10: You know, the rightest little problem is fucking cut me out.

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Speaker 10: I don't know why, but they just thing I hate

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Speaker 10: this failing, fucking hate it. She was on her way here.

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Speaker 10: Why I'm tripping outlands? How I could have knew it.

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Speaker 8: I've listened to this call so many times, and I've

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Speaker 8: tried to hear it the way Aguero wanted the jury

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Speaker 8: to hear it. But Leo's furious, but I just can't.

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Speaker 8: To me, he just sounds scared or worried.

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Speaker 2: After this call to the Sheriff's office, Aguero says that

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Speaker 2: Leo leaves Vince's house and then somehow someway, he locates

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Speaker 2: Michelle and the Mazda.

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Speaker 8: Aguero doesn't offer any theory about how or where this

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Speaker 8: reunion between Leo and Michelle occurred because he has no witnesses.

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Speaker 8: But according to Aguero's timeline, this reunion had to have

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Speaker 8: happened between about one am and one thirty because at

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Speaker 8: around one thirty am, Leo's neighbor, Alice Scott, enters the picture.

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Speaker 2: Since Alice is the only witness who claims to have

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Speaker 2: seen anything related to the murder itself, Aguero's case hinges

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Speaker 2: on her testimony of where and when Michelle was killed,

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Speaker 2: So sometime around one thirty Am, Alice Scott is supposedly

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Speaker 2: sitting at her bathroom window when she sees Leo and

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Speaker 2: Michelle drive up in the orange Mazda and walk inside

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Speaker 2: their trailer.

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Speaker 8: Alice Scott's statements are not consistent. Her story about what

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00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:22,200
Speaker 8: she saw that night changes each time she tells it,

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Speaker 8: but in the version she gives at trial, she says,

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Speaker 8: when Leo and Michelle get home, they start fighting, and

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Speaker 8: this apparently goes on for about twenty minutes, then all

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Speaker 8: goes quiet. Alice says she sees Leo walk out of

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Speaker 8: the trailer, get in the Mazda, and drive off. She

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Speaker 8: says he's gone for another twenty minutes.

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Speaker 2: After he returns, Alice says Leo spent five or ten

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Speaker 2: minutes in the trailer before bringing out the heavy object.

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Speaker 2: He puts the heavy object, what's assumed to be Michelle's body,

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Speaker 2: in the back of the Mazda and drives off. It's

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Speaker 2: around two twenty am when Alice says she sees Leo

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Speaker 2: carrying the object out, but.

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Speaker 8: Two twenty is another important time. That's when David saw

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Speaker 8: Michelle's dad told police that Leo showed up at his house,

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Speaker 8: woke him up and told him his daughter was missing.

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Speaker 2: So the Times don't line up. The statements of Alice

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Speaker 2: Scott and David Salm put Leo in two places at

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Speaker 2: once at two twenty.

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Speaker 8: Am, and then Leo's mom testifies she had driven Leo

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Speaker 8: to David's house. So Aguero basically says that Leo gets

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00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:36,760
Speaker 8: in touch with his parents and they immediately agreed to

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Speaker 8: become accessories to a murder, and then right away they

250
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Speaker 8: come up with this master plan. They're going to get

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Speaker 8: rid of Michelle's body and craft a false.

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Speaker 2: Alibi, so to recap. According to Aguero, Leo and Michelle

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Speaker 2: start fighting at one point thirty and it goes on

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Speaker 2: for about twenty minutes. He says, Leo kills his wife

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00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:01,720
Speaker 2: in a fit of raid and drives away to call

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00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:05,320
Speaker 2: his parents for help. Then Leo goes back to the trailer,

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00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:09,160
Speaker 2: puts the body in the Mazda, and drives off. He

258
00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:12,880
Speaker 2: meets up with his parents, switches vehicles, and shows up

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00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:14,680
Speaker 2: at Michelle's dad's house with his.

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Speaker 8: Mom, and Aguero said, this all happened within one hour.

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Speaker 8: That just doesn't make sense to me.

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00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:27,680
Speaker 2: Then around three am, Leo and his mom drive up

263
00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:30,320
Speaker 2: to two patrol cars parked at a gas station on

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Speaker 2: Comby road. Both Leo and the state agree on this.

265
00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:38,320
Speaker 2: It's documented in the police reports, but according to Aguero,

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00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:42,520
Speaker 2: they're not actually out looking for Michelle. He says the

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Speaker 2: Schofields are just driving around in the middle of the

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00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:49,120
Speaker 2: night to fake an alibi. When Leo and his mom

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00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:52,840
Speaker 2: saw the police officers, Aguero says they were really on

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Speaker 2: their way to meet up with Leo Senior at the

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00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:58,000
Speaker 2: Canal to help get rid of Michelle's body.

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00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:01,920
Speaker 8: Aguero brings the Laffoons to the stand to support this

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00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:06,080
Speaker 8: version of events. Remember, Randy and Mary Laffoon are the

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Speaker 8: couple that live down the street from Leo and Michelle.

275
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Speaker 8: At first, they say they didn't see or hear anything

276
00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:16,800
Speaker 8: on the night Michelle was murdered. But then fifteen months later,

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00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:20,520
Speaker 8: Aguero talks to them at the suggestion of Alice Scott,

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00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:24,639
Speaker 8: and suddenly they say they remember seeing the Mazda or

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00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:28,160
Speaker 8: Leo Senior's pickup truck near where Michelle's body was found.

280
00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:32,639
Speaker 2: How is it that, fifteen months after the murder, they

281
00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:36,480
Speaker 2: now remember all these details that they didn't remember until

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00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:41,360
Speaker 2: Laguero spoke to them. The Laffoons also changed their story

283
00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:44,719
Speaker 2: depending on who they're talking to, and they can't remember

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00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:46,760
Speaker 2: specific details or dates.

285
00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:50,960
Speaker 8: And then there's the issue of the crime scene or

286
00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:55,880
Speaker 8: the supposed crime scene Leo and Michelle's trailer, the place

287
00:17:55,920 --> 00:18:00,200
Speaker 8: where Leo supposedly stabbed Michelle twenty six times, or the

288
00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:03,639
Speaker 8: medical examiner says she would have lost five pints of blood.

289
00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:08,800
Speaker 2: Alice Scott, Leo's neighbor, says she sees Leo bring a

290
00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:12,800
Speaker 2: carpet cleaner inside his trailer the next morning, and she

291
00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:15,840
Speaker 2: sees him cleaning the carpet through his open front door.

292
00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:20,200
Speaker 2: If this is true, Leo must have done a remarkable

293
00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:23,639
Speaker 2: job scrubbing the scene because not a single trace of

294
00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:27,480
Speaker 2: Michelle's blood is found in the trailer. No blood on

295
00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:30,680
Speaker 2: the walls or ceiling, no blood on the carpet or

296
00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:34,359
Speaker 2: seeped into the floorboards. Not one speck of blood was

297
00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:38,600
Speaker 2: found in the kitchen or the bathroom either. One of

298
00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:41,879
Speaker 2: the crime scene technicians testified that the carpet did not

299
00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:44,760
Speaker 2: look clean, and that he found no evidence that it

300
00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:48,680
Speaker 2: was recently cleaned. If it had been, there should have

301
00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:52,160
Speaker 2: been some kind of detergent on the carpet, but there wasn't.

302
00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:57,760
Speaker 8: To address this, Aguero pivots, he suggests that Leo could

303
00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:01,160
Speaker 8: have steamed all the blood out of the carpet using

304
00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:07,280
Speaker 8: water alone. I'm pretty sure this is impossible. Plus, wouldn't

305
00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:10,040
Speaker 8: there be blood in the carpet cleaner. The state never

306
00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:13,320
Speaker 8: mentions any effort to locate the cleaner and test for blood.

307
00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:16,440
Speaker 8: And I find it hard to believe that any crime

308
00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:20,280
Speaker 8: scene technician walked into that trailer and concluded that a

309
00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:24,920
Speaker 8: brutal stabbing took place there. Nine or ten investigators went

310
00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:28,080
Speaker 8: in to search the trailer, but the only thing they

311
00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:31,000
Speaker 8: took out was a three by four inch piece of carpet.

312
00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:34,280
Speaker 8: It had a small stain on it. They tested it

313
00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:37,359
Speaker 8: and said that they couldn't even determine what kind of

314
00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:41,240
Speaker 8: stain it was. Could have been blood, or it could

315
00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:44,560
Speaker 8: have been vodka or rust. They were in there for

316
00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:47,280
Speaker 8: four or five hours and that's all they found.

317
00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:50,680
Speaker 2: And when asked why they didn't remove more of the

318
00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:53,080
Speaker 2: carpeting in the trailer to see if any blood had

319
00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:56,640
Speaker 2: soaked into the padding beneath it, the crime scene technician

320
00:19:56,800 --> 00:19:59,600
Speaker 2: testified they didn't do that because it would have ruined

321
00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:04,400
Speaker 2: the flow. Think about that. The state claims that Michelle

322
00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:07,680
Speaker 2: was stabbed twenty six times in there. They can't find

323
00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:11,200
Speaker 2: any blood, and they're worried about damaging the floor in

324
00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:15,480
Speaker 2: a single wide trailer. When I look at the reports

325
00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:19,280
Speaker 2: and the photos, I'm convinced that detectives and crime scene

326
00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:23,200
Speaker 2: technicians knew what their own eyes were telling them. The

327
00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:25,480
Speaker 2: trailer was not the crime scene.

328
00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:30,760
Speaker 8: And then there's the Mazda. It's found broken down on

329
00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:34,480
Speaker 8: I four, more than six miles away from where Michelle's

330
00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:35,520
Speaker 8: body is discovered.

331
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Speaker 2: Aguero offers no explanation for that. Who was driving and

332
00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:42,280
Speaker 2: where were they going?

333
00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:47,040
Speaker 8: Aguero never presents a theory to answer any of those questions.

334
00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:50,920
Speaker 8: Maybe he could have crafted a more coherent story if

335
00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:54,760
Speaker 8: he wasn't tied to the testimony of Alice Scott, Aguero's

336
00:20:54,760 --> 00:21:00,280
Speaker 8: star witness, the neighborhood busybody. And let's be straight, Alice

337
00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:04,320
Speaker 8: Scott is not a credible witness. Her story changed multiple

338
00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:07,720
Speaker 8: times throughout the investigation and even during the trial.

339
00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:11,960
Speaker 2: And I've always wondered about this. If Alice was the

340
00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:14,880
Speaker 2: type of neighbor to call the cops on kids riding

341
00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:18,000
Speaker 2: bikes on her lawn, why wouldn't she call the police

342
00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:20,679
Speaker 2: the night she heard her neighbor screaming bloody murder? At

343
00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:24,160
Speaker 2: two am, And how is it that none of Leo's

344
00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:27,640
Speaker 2: other neighbors reported hearing anything like that when they were

345
00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:28,760
Speaker 2: questioned by police.

346
00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:33,680
Speaker 8: And then Alice's husband, Ricky Scott, would tell a newspaper

347
00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:38,040
Speaker 8: reporter twenty years after Michelle's death that even he didn't

348
00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:41,560
Speaker 8: believe Alice's story, he says he knew how she twisted

349
00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:45,840
Speaker 8: the truth. Ricky said, quote, she took a little something

350
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:50,680
Speaker 8: and exaggerated like she always did. And Alice's sister in law,

351
00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:54,080
Speaker 8: Linda Sells, would tell the same reporter that Alice will

352
00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:56,560
Speaker 8: say anything to be the center of attention.

353
00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:00,919
Speaker 2: On top of that, when Alice herself was confronted by

354
00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:04,359
Speaker 2: the reporter on the inconsistencies in her story, like that

355
00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:06,600
Speaker 2: she couldn't see what she said she saw from her

356
00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:12,480
Speaker 2: bathroom window, she changed her story yet again. Twenty years

357
00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:16,439
Speaker 2: after Michelle's death, Alice said that her vantage point from

358
00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:20,880
Speaker 2: the bathroom window wasn't good enough, so she'd walked onto

359
00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:24,680
Speaker 2: her porch to observe the commotion. This is not what

360
00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:25,919
Speaker 2: she said a trial.

361
00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:31,120
Speaker 8: She also told the reporter quote, if Aguero had done

362
00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:35,040
Speaker 8: what he was supposed to and executed Leo Schofield, we

363
00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:37,400
Speaker 8: wouldn't have to be dealing with this mess now.

364
00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:46,399
Speaker 2: For prosecutor John Aguero, defending the state's timeline wasn't going

365
00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:50,040
Speaker 2: to be easy, and he knew it, but destroying Leo's

366
00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:55,400
Speaker 2: alibi defense by challenging Leo's Senior's credibility would be much easier.

367
00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:00,439
Speaker 2: Leo's father and the alleged vision from God that led

368
00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:03,119
Speaker 2: him to Michelle's body three days after she was killed,

369
00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:07,720
Speaker 2: had become the elephant in the courtroom. Aguero argued that

370
00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:11,200
Speaker 2: Leo Senior knew exactly where the body was, and since

371
00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:13,960
Speaker 2: he couldn't call God as a witness, he just let

372
00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:17,080
Speaker 2: Leo Senior's premonition hang in the courthouse air for the

373
00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:22,080
Speaker 2: jury to ponder. John Aguero was stuck on Leo Senior's premonition.

374
00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:27,560
Speaker 14: John was very a very straightforward man.

375
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:31,639
Speaker 2: Officer Richard Kachadourian of the Lakeland Police Department was on

376
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:33,960
Speaker 2: duty when Leo and his father first went down to

377
00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:37,920
Speaker 2: the station to report Michelle missing. He also heard first

378
00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:40,920
Speaker 2: hand of Leo Senior's premonition when he called to offer

379
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:45,520
Speaker 2: his condolences to the family. Katchadorian remembers that even after

380
00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:49,119
Speaker 2: the trial ended, John Aguero was still focused heavily on

381
00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:49,960
Speaker 2: Leo Senior.

382
00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:53,639
Speaker 14: Every time I went to State Attorney's office, would mee

383
00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:55,360
Speaker 14: end of the hall a little bit, and John would

384
00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:57,119
Speaker 14: be at the desk and his classes on, and I

385
00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:01,280
Speaker 14: stick my head in and John, how you do anything new?

386
00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:04,280
Speaker 14: And we chitchat for a minute, and he told me, said,

387
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:08,119
Speaker 14: mister Schofield, dodge the bullet on this one, because he

388
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:12,639
Speaker 14: felt mister Schofield was involved in this, at least in

389
00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:17,080
Speaker 14: the disposal of the body. He told me a number

390
00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:19,600
Speaker 14: of times, Richard, when I get the time, I'm going

391
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:21,680
Speaker 14: to go back into an historical case and put him

392
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:22,080
Speaker 14: in jail.

393
00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:27,600
Speaker 2: The narrative about Leo Senior and his strange vision rippled

394
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:31,200
Speaker 2: through the press and the community. It's often the first

395
00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:34,440
Speaker 2: thing people mention when we asked them about the Schofield case.

396
00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:38,640
Speaker 15: The whole thing has struck me really about this case

397
00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:40,440
Speaker 15: was the father.

398
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,359
Speaker 2: This is Joe Zarbo. He was working at the Polk

399
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:46,640
Speaker 2: County Sheriff's office in nineteen eighty seven.

400
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:49,080
Speaker 15: Obviously he's involved in it. Somehow.

401
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:52,639
Speaker 2: Joe was at the crime scene that day Michelle's body

402
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:56,440
Speaker 2: was found. Not long after Michelle's murder, he left his

403
00:24:56,600 --> 00:25:00,320
Speaker 2: job as a deputy and became a private investigator. In

404
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:02,960
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety two, while Leo was trying to get his

405
00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:06,000
Speaker 2: case looked at again, Joe's Arbo was brought in to

406
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:09,479
Speaker 2: re examine Leo's case, and one of his first steps

407
00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:11,159
Speaker 2: was to interview Leo in prison.

408
00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:14,760
Speaker 15: I know that one time during the interview, I believe

409
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:18,000
Speaker 15: he was he started to cry a little bit and

410
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:20,520
Speaker 15: he asked me, he said, do you believe me? And

411
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:22,600
Speaker 15: I told him, I said, it doesn't make any difference

412
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:24,560
Speaker 15: whether I believe or not. I don't know if he

413
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:26,399
Speaker 15: did it or not. Leo, I said, I can't prove it.

414
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:29,920
Speaker 15: I'm not here trying to get Leo off. I'm just

415
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:33,159
Speaker 15: looking at the whole thing all over again, you know,

416
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:34,400
Speaker 15: as a fresh set of eyes.

417
00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:40,440
Speaker 2: But Joe's Arbo also couldn't shake Leo Senior's premonition from.

418
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:42,679
Speaker 15: What he said, God told me where she was. I mean,

419
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:44,240
Speaker 15: it was just weird.

420
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:48,200
Speaker 2: Especially weird was where he found the body.

421
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:51,720
Speaker 15: It was well off the road a little bit, you know,

422
00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:53,520
Speaker 15: at that time. I can remember there was a lot

423
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:56,840
Speaker 15: of heavy brush, you know, between the roadway and where

424
00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:00,240
Speaker 15: she was found. It's not something that you're to be

425
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 15: walking down the street and look over and see a

426
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:05,680
Speaker 15: body laying there. Okay, have you gone out there crime

427
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:06,800
Speaker 15: scene or where it was?

428
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:13,280
Speaker 2: And these are definitely not the same fuck pos, But

429
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:15,080
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, we'd been there.

430
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,080
Speaker 5: If you were to count those poles off, just I counted.

431
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:21,320
Speaker 2: It was one of the first places Kelsey and I

432
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:24,680
Speaker 2: went to in Lakeland. We brought along the police reports

433
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:27,720
Speaker 2: with all the distances measured out. It was one of

434
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,919
Speaker 2: those sweltering afternoons in Polk County when you get out

435
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:33,399
Speaker 2: of the air conditioned car and you're blasted by the

436
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:37,480
Speaker 2: heat and humidity of the Florida summer. Kelsey and I

437
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,639
Speaker 2: are walking along State Road thirty three trying to locate

438
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:43,760
Speaker 2: the exact spot where Leo's senior found Michelle's body.

439
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:49,520
Speaker 4: Did you see any water?

440
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 3: Yeah?

441
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 10: There it is.

442
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:55,840
Speaker 1: It isn't hard to find, Okay, so that's got to

443
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 1: be that's got to be the body of water. I've

444
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 1: heard it described as a fishing pit, spate mining pit,

445
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 1: whatever it is.

446
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:06,359
Speaker 2: That's definitely the water. And it's exactly one hundred and

447
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:08,320
Speaker 2: fifteen feet from State.

448
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:13,120
Speaker 1: Road thirty three, So I guess in there is where

449
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:16,680
Speaker 1: Michelle's body would have been found back in nineteen eighty seven.

450
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:22,080
Speaker 1: It's a horrible place to end up.

451
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:29,720
Speaker 2: We've talked to a lot of people about this place

452
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:34,040
Speaker 2: and it comes up constantly. In the trial testimony, the prosecutor,

453
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:36,639
Speaker 2: John Aguero goes to great lengths to paint a picture

454
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:40,119
Speaker 2: of how remote the location is. But if you look

455
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:42,879
Speaker 2: at the aerial photos taken on the day Michelle was found,

456
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:45,720
Speaker 2: it's not as off the beaten path as the state

457
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:49,359
Speaker 2: makes it seem. In the photos, you see a long,

458
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:52,520
Speaker 2: narrow body of water that runs parallel to State Road

459
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:55,920
Speaker 2: thirty three. It can't be seen from the road because

460
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:58,440
Speaker 2: of the tree line and the thick palmetto bush is

461
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 2: guarding it. There's a dirt path as wide as a

462
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:04,639
Speaker 2: driveway that cuts from the road and leads right to

463
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:08,040
Speaker 2: the edge of the canal. The dirt road opens into

464
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 2: a clearing behind the tree.

465
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:13,720
Speaker 8: Line, right by the place you pull off. There's a

466
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:17,359
Speaker 8: sign there that says no dumping of rubbish. You can

467
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:19,399
Speaker 8: see it in the photos. I mean they tied the

468
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:21,880
Speaker 8: crime scene tape to that sign.

469
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:28,120
Speaker 2: There's garbage everywhere, empty beer bottles, cigarette butts, old tires,

470
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:32,399
Speaker 2: plastic tarps, and in the photos shown at trial, there

471
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 2: are tire tracks and footprints in the soil right next

472
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 2: to Michelle's bloodstains. When Jack Edmund asked one of the

473
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 2: crime scene technicians why no one bothered to analyze the

474
00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:45,160
Speaker 2: tire tracks or footprints, he was told there were just

475
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:49,720
Speaker 2: too many. It would have taken too long. Even Aguero

476
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:52,480
Speaker 2: has to pivot in his closing argument from the description

477
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:55,520
Speaker 2: of this place as remote and hard to find. He

478
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 2: admits that, yes, the location where Michelle's body was found

479
00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:01,959
Speaker 2: is both a lover's lie for teenagers as well as

480
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 2: a fishing spot.

481
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 8: There's just multiple stories told about this one little location,

482
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 8: and I think there's some validity on both sides. But

483
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:16,960
Speaker 8: it's definitely like a place that people would go, like,

484
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 8: people would go back there and fish there was like, yeah,

485
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 8: there was trash back there.

486
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 2: If you believe the defense, it makes perfect sense that

487
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 2: Leo Senior would look there. When Leo, his dad, and

488
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 2: Michelle's friends and family went searching for her, they were methodical,

489
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:35,960
Speaker 2: working backwards from where the MASDA was found on I four,

490
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 2: heading towards Sparky's gas station. They were all searching in

491
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 2: ditches off the side of the road. It seems like

492
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:45,600
Speaker 2: any member of the search party could have found her,

493
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 2: but all that was lost on the jury. The second

494
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:52,120
Speaker 2: Leo Senior told his own story about his vision from God.

495
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:56,880
Speaker 2: I looked into this phenomenon people saying that God led

496
00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:00,240
Speaker 2: them to finding a dead body. It turns out this

497
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 2: kind of thing isn't uncommon. There are plenty of reports

498
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 2: from homicide cases where witnesses claim that a higher power

499
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 2: led them to the discovery of important evidence or even

500
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 2: a body. I think these visions are similar to the

501
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:16,480
Speaker 2: stories you hear from people who just miss a flight

502
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:20,400
Speaker 2: that crashes, killing everyone on board. How can you not

503
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:25,840
Speaker 2: attribute some kind of divine intervention to such a traumatic event. Still,

504
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:29,320
Speaker 2: telling people that God led him to that spot does

505
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:33,840
Speaker 2: sound weird. There's no denying that. And so the suspicion

506
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 2: around Leo Senior's vision or premonition was its own gift

507
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 2: from God to the prosecutor. It made up the bulk

508
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:46,680
Speaker 2: of Aguero's closing argument, and all the innuendo around Leo's

509
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:51,800
Speaker 2: father was a devastating blow to Leo's case. And there

510
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 2: was one other thing Joe's Arbo was left wondering about.

511
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:59,720
Speaker 15: There was something that keeps popping into my head that

512
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:05,080
Speaker 15: Leo's father made a move on Michelle. Did you ever

513
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 15: hear anything like that?

514
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 2: No, we didn't, But there is something disturbing in Leo

515
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:15,640
Speaker 2: Senior's past. In April nineteen eighty seven, a couple months

516
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 2: after Michelle was murdered, Leo Senior was arrested and charged

517
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:23,640
Speaker 2: with sexually abusing a minor in Rhode Island. And this

518
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:27,480
Speaker 2: behavior it wasn't a one time thing. This is a

519
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:31,280
Speaker 2: pattern with Leo's father. He's serving a prison sentence in

520
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:35,920
Speaker 2: Idaho for a similar charge. I think this is one

521
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:39,160
Speaker 2: of the reasons Aguero was so fixated on Leo Senior.

522
00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:44,360
Speaker 2: John Aguero began his career prosecuting child abuse cases, and

523
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 2: he'd seen a lot of them. He knew the type. Perhaps,

524
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 2: in Aguero's mind, Leo Senior was such a bad guy,

525
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:55,680
Speaker 2: he just had to have been involved in Michelle's murder too.

526
00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 2: It even came up a trial during a bench conference

527
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 2: because of Leo Senior's arrest in nineteen eighty seven. Aguero

528
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 2: was aware of the charges, but he was reminded by

529
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:10,440
Speaker 2: the judge that he was prohibited from bringing it up

530
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:15,960
Speaker 2: before the jury. Leo Senior's history of sexual abuse while

531
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:20,240
Speaker 2: devastating is not evidence that he committed murder or helped

532
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:24,200
Speaker 2: dispose of the body, and it certainly is an evidence

533
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:46,720
Speaker 2: that Leo had anything to do with Michelle's death. It's

534
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety three. Leo's now been in prison for four years.

535
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:53,880
Speaker 2: He's trying to make the most of his time there,

536
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 2: so he gets his ged and he's thinking about enrolling

537
00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:01,600
Speaker 2: in paralegal courses through the University of Florida. He's also

538
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:04,160
Speaker 2: started working as a teaching aid for a life skills

539
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:09,080
Speaker 2: class where inmates learn communication skills, resume writing, and how

540
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 2: to balance a checkbook. Really, Leo is running the class

541
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 2: while the teacher supervises. One day, Leo learns that his

542
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:21,400
Speaker 2: supervising teacher has moved on and the prison is bringing

543
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 2: in someone new to run the program. Leo shows up

544
00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:28,120
Speaker 2: to work. He has a little office in the prison

545
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 2: and he gets a call from the guy who runs

546
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 2: the education program.

547
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:35,560
Speaker 16: He called on the intercoms in my computer. He says, Schofield,

548
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 16: please start at my office.

549
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:41,800
Speaker 2: He's about to be introduced to the new life skills teacher.

550
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:45,280
Speaker 2: Leo says that most of the teachers hired by the

551
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:49,040
Speaker 2: prison system are retirees, so he was expecting a seventy

552
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 2: five year old lady. When he makes it to the

553
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 2: education program office, the guy who runs the program points

554
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:57,120
Speaker 2: Leo to the new teacher, so.

555
00:33:57,600 --> 00:33:59,960
Speaker 11: The head of education assigned him to be my aide.

556
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 2: This is Chrissy Carter. She's a social worker and the

557
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:05,760
Speaker 2: new life Skills teacher.

558
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:09,640
Speaker 16: And I saw Chrissy for the first time, and because

559
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:12,280
Speaker 16: she was thirty one years old, and she was absolutely stunning.

560
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:16,319
Speaker 2: She's tall, blonde, and she's no old lady.

561
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:20,400
Speaker 11: The next time I saw him actually came into a class.

562
00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:24,480
Speaker 11: There was another teacher there giving a test. Leo was

563
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:28,160
Speaker 11: there helping that teacher organize the test. So he and

564
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:33,000
Speaker 11: I sat at the front and started talking, and I

565
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:35,440
Speaker 11: liked him, and we had stuff to talk about that

566
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:38,480
Speaker 11: was interesting, and the two hours just kind of flew by.

567
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 11: He's pretty funny, very sincere. He seemed different, you know,

568
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:47,839
Speaker 11: And one of the things I'd never do is ask

569
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:49,920
Speaker 11: at eBay why they're in or what's going on with that.

570
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 11: But somehow the topic of his case came up.

571
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:57,360
Speaker 2: Leo tells her he's been convicted of killing his wife, Michelle,

572
00:34:57,920 --> 00:34:59,360
Speaker 2: but that he's an innocent man.

573
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:02,960
Speaker 16: In the chain gang inmates will play games with girls

574
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:04,919
Speaker 16: and they'll say they're getting out in such and such

575
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:06,920
Speaker 16: a time, and then in that time comes up, they're.

576
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:07,319
Speaker 11: Not getting out.

577
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:10,520
Speaker 16: They'll make up some story. And I was not going

578
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 16: to do that with her. I'd already lost my life

579
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:16,440
Speaker 16: and wasn't in a mood for a game, and I

580
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 16: was very broken, and so I just laid it all

581
00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:21,640
Speaker 16: on the line for you know, everything that was happening,

582
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 16: and I told her this is the hill that I

583
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 16: have to climb.

584
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:28,600
Speaker 11: I was like, Okay, what is this all about.

585
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 2: Chrissy wants to believe him, and she likes him. She

586
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:35,719
Speaker 2: watches him teach the class, and they continue to get

587
00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:39,520
Speaker 2: to know each other. At the same time, Leo was

588
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:45,520
Speaker 2: also getting ready to go back to court. Those first

589
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:48,040
Speaker 2: few years in prison, he'd had plenty of time to

590
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:51,759
Speaker 2: think about his case and what went wrong. He began

591
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:55,439
Speaker 2: spending time in the prison library learning about possible next

592
00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 2: steps in the legal system for someone who claims to

593
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:03,800
Speaker 2: be wrongfully convicted. He started researching the appeals process, and

594
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:07,320
Speaker 2: he came to the realization that his defense attorney, Jack Edmund,

595
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 2: made a number of crucial mistakes at trial. So Leo

596
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:15,360
Speaker 2: starts to write up his own legal brief. It claims

597
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:19,239
Speaker 2: that Jack Edmund had provided ineffective assistance of counsel during

598
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 2: the trial. Basically, he didn't do his job properly and

599
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:29,759
Speaker 2: as a result, Leo's conviction should be thrown out. The

600
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:34,640
Speaker 2: court grants Leo adhering to argue his case. He tells

601
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 2: Chrissy and she decides to attend. Leo is given a

602
00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:46,359
Speaker 2: court appointed lawyer to help prepare the argument. Together, they

603
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:49,840
Speaker 2: point to twelve mistakes that Jack Edmund made in Leo's defense.

604
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:56,239
Speaker 2: Here are the three most crucial mistakes. First, Edmund didn't

605
00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:58,800
Speaker 2: meet with Leo until the night before his trial began,

606
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:04,879
Speaker 2: know the witnesses the evidence Leo's timeline, and Leo didn't

607
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:07,520
Speaker 2: learn about the evidence the state had against him until

608
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 2: the trial began. He had no idea what was coming. Second,

609
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:16,040
Speaker 2: Edmond failed to object to the twenty one witnesses the

610
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:22,160
Speaker 2: prosecution called to testify about Leo's character. These witnesses, again

611
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:25,960
Speaker 2: twenty one in total, gave testimony that had nothing to

612
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:28,799
Speaker 2: do with evidence that could prove whether or not Leo

613
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 2: committed the murder. Instead, they testified that Leo was someone

614
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:36,600
Speaker 2: who had a temper it should never have been allowed

615
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:40,120
Speaker 2: to open the state's case. Courts have decided this kind

616
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:44,600
Speaker 2: of testimony is deeply prejudicial to juries. There is one

617
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:48,480
Speaker 2: exception to this rule. Judges may allow testimony of prior

618
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:51,880
Speaker 2: bad acts when they occur between a defendant and the victim.

619
00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 2: So testimony about Leo hitting Michelle or dragging her by

620
00:37:56,040 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 2: the hair that could have been admissible, But the prosecutor,

621
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 2: John Aguero, was supposed to file something called a notice

622
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:07,840
Speaker 2: of intent so the judge could review the testimony and

623
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 2: decide whether or not it should be allowed. In Leo's case,

624
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:17,080
Speaker 2: John Aguero never did that. He introduced the testimony anyway,

625
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:23,640
Speaker 2: and Jack Edmond failed to object, and finally Edmond failed

626
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 2: by not calling Michelle's aunt Kathy to the stand. There

627
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:30,479
Speaker 2: were a number of important witnesses Edmund should have called

628
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:34,560
Speaker 2: but didn't, Leo and Michelle's landlord, who could have refuted

629
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:39,000
Speaker 2: the carpet cleaner testimony, and hospital and sheriff dispatchers who

630
00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:42,840
Speaker 2: could have corroborated Leo's efforts to find his wife. But

631
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:45,640
Speaker 2: none of these witnesses were as important to Leo's case

632
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:49,680
Speaker 2: as Michelle's aunt Cathy. She'd been on the receiving end

633
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:53,759
Speaker 2: of a call Leo made to Michelle's grandmother. This call

634
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:57,760
Speaker 2: was crucial, not because of what was said, but because

635
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:02,719
Speaker 2: of when it took place too. That's the time Leo

636
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:05,600
Speaker 2: told Detective Weeks he made the call, and that's the

637
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:09,720
Speaker 2: time Aunt Cathy said she spoke to Leo. Detective Weeks

638
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:14,320
Speaker 2: confirmed this and it's documented in his report. This is

639
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:18,600
Speaker 2: critical because two am is also the time Alice Scott

640
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:22,120
Speaker 2: told police she heard screaming from Leo and Michelle's trailer,

641
00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:25,640
Speaker 2: but Leo did not have a telephone in his trailer,

642
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:29,439
Speaker 2: so he couldn't have made the call from there. Leo

643
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:32,080
Speaker 2: claims he was at his parents' house all the way

644
00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:35,680
Speaker 2: across town when he made that call. This phone call

645
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:39,960
Speaker 2: could have been a major piece of evidence corroborating Leo's alibi.

646
00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 2: All these points against Edmund are presented at the hearing.

647
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:48,640
Speaker 2: Jack Edmund even testifies and he admits that he didn't

648
00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:52,520
Speaker 2: understand all the rules of evidence, so he falls on

649
00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:55,360
Speaker 2: his sword and admits to the court that he failed

650
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:58,160
Speaker 2: to effectively represent Leo Schofield at trial.

651
00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:00,640
Speaker 12: But none of it matters.

652
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:07,560
Speaker 2: Leo's motion is denied, and I believe.

653
00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:10,560
Speaker 16: Awe that I'm convicted because they didn't like who I was.

654
00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:13,359
Speaker 16: I don't believe anybody on that jury really believes I'm

655
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:16,200
Speaker 16: the harder. He didn't show any evidence of that. They

656
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:19,160
Speaker 16: believe that I was such a bad guy it didn't matter.

657
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:26,760
Speaker 2: After the hearing, Leo is handcuffed and transported back to prison,

658
00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:30,960
Speaker 2: and Chrissy approaches Leo's attorney, Bob Doyle. She asks if

659
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:32,200
Speaker 2: she can speak to him privately.

660
00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:35,719
Speaker 11: So we went to a little coffee shop and I

661
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:39,600
Speaker 11: was telling him, you know, here for Leo and interested

662
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:43,960
Speaker 11: in his case and looking at it, and you know,

663
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:45,719
Speaker 11: I told him that I was, you know, I.

664
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:46,399
Speaker 4: Like this guy.

665
00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:50,839
Speaker 2: Chrissy tells this to Leo's lawyer, Bob Doyle because she's

666
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:53,920
Speaker 2: hoping he'll lead her in the right direction, even if

667
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:56,080
Speaker 2: that means she should run away from Leo as fast

668
00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:59,719
Speaker 2: as she can. But instead, Doyle tells her.

669
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:04,520
Speaker 11: This, don't believe them, because you want to look at

670
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:04,959
Speaker 11: the case.

671
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:12,200
Speaker 2: Chrissy leaves the coffee shop, goes back to the Polk

672
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:15,759
Speaker 2: County Courthouse and walks into the clerk's office. She asks

673
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:17,399
Speaker 2: to see the files on Leo's case.

674
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 11: I just started looking and asking and looking and asking

675
00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:21,960
Speaker 11: some more.

676
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:27,040
Speaker 2: As Chrissy starts digging and asking questions, she starts seeing

677
00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 2: all the discrepancies. She was especially hung up on the

678
00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:34,719
Speaker 2: state's timeline. How is it possible for Leo to be

679
00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:38,120
Speaker 2: accounted for by friends, family, and deputies on the night

680
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:41,480
Speaker 2: Michelle had gone missing and still slip away to murder

681
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:44,320
Speaker 2: his wife, dispose of the body, and clean up a

682
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:45,080
Speaker 2: crime scene.

683
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:48,360
Speaker 11: Well, when you start looking at the case and you

684
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:51,560
Speaker 11: start putting the pieces together, nothing is adding up.

685
00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:55,799
Speaker 2: She reads the trial transcripts, then she begins digging into

686
00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:59,960
Speaker 2: the sheriff's reports and the files from the state attorney's office. Obviously,

687
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:04,200
Speaker 2: she has questions about Leo and Michelle's relationship, so she'd

688
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:07,360
Speaker 2: visit the prison to ask Leo about the case and

689
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:08,200
Speaker 2: about Michelle.

690
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:13,560
Speaker 11: No question was off limits, nothing was too difficult for

691
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:16,200
Speaker 11: him to share. Well, it might have been difficult, but

692
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:16,800
Speaker 11: he was willing.

693
00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:20,440
Speaker 2: After talking to Leo, she'd go back to the clerk's

694
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:23,320
Speaker 2: office to do more research. Then back she'd go to

695
00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:24,880
Speaker 2: run more questions by Leo.

696
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:30,200
Speaker 11: And his answer would always confirm that that was impossible

697
00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:32,799
Speaker 11: for those things that have happened, or clarify that maybe

698
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:33,839
Speaker 11: I didn't understand right.

699
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:38,120
Speaker 2: She kept doing this for months, going back and forth

700
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:40,760
Speaker 2: between the court files and visiting Leo at the prison.

701
00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:44,920
Speaker 2: After a while, Chrissy became certain that Leo couldn't have

702
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:49,160
Speaker 2: done this. But not only that, she realizes she's developing

703
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:50,040
Speaker 2: feelings for Leo.

704
00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:54,960
Speaker 11: We got along really well, you know, it seemed like

705
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:56,960
Speaker 11: we were kind of liking each other a little bit.

706
00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:00,200
Speaker 11: But he's in prison, you know, so the relationship ship,

707
00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:03,440
Speaker 11: the dating thing was like a little awkward. In addition

708
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:07,600
Speaker 11: to the obvious, you know, physical restrictions and living your

709
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:11,880
Speaker 11: life in a fish pool. Every kiss, every hug, everything

710
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:18,239
Speaker 11: we say, everything has been under someone's watch. There's no

711
00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:21,000
Speaker 11: hiding when you're in a relationship with someone in prison.

712
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:25,200
Speaker 11: We decided about four years into the relationship that we

713
00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:28,880
Speaker 11: were going to do this forever, prison or no prison.

714
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:32,120
Speaker 11: We were doing it. So we had to do an

715
00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:34,919
Speaker 11: application to get married in prison. I had to write

716
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:37,920
Speaker 11: a letter about why I wanted to marry him, you know,

717
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:40,719
Speaker 11: dear sir, I want to marr him because I love him,

718
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:44,360
Speaker 11: you know, sincerely. So we picked a date and my

719
00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 11: friend and I went shopping and I picked out a

720
00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:54,320
Speaker 11: dress and went to the prison chaplain and walked in

721
00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:58,800
Speaker 11: my dress that we'd picked out and we got married.

722
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:00,320
Speaker 7: There you go.

723
00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:13,520
Speaker 2: Obviously, Chrissy did not choose a simple life. She's struggling

724
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:17,160
Speaker 2: to explain this choice. But at the same time, she

725
00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:20,120
Speaker 2: didn't want to hide who she was, and so she

726
00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:22,360
Speaker 2: called her friends to tell them about this man that

727
00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:25,640
Speaker 2: she had married. One of them was her work friend,

728
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:26,840
Speaker 2: Cinda Williams.

729
00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:32,320
Speaker 7: Actually, I handled all of the crimes against children cases

730
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:35,520
Speaker 7: that came to our Sheriff's office, and that's how I

731
00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:36,200
Speaker 7: met Chrissy.

732
00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:40,120
Speaker 2: Cinda was an investigator in Henry County when she first

733
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:43,800
Speaker 2: met Chrissy. Chrissy was the social worker Cinda worked with

734
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:49,720
Speaker 2: on child abuse cases. Then their career paths diverged. Sinda

735
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:51,919
Speaker 2: went to work for the State Attorney's office in Palm

736
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:55,840
Speaker 2: Beach County, almost two hours east of Henry, but they

737
00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:59,640
Speaker 2: kept in touch and then one day Cinda gets this

738
00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:01,040
Speaker 2: call from Chrissy.

739
00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:03,759
Speaker 7: And she said, listen, I need to talk to you.

740
00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:07,320
Speaker 7: And I'm like, sure, what, And I figured it was

741
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:13,200
Speaker 7: about a case and she said I've met somebody and

742
00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:16,719
Speaker 7: I'm like, well, that's great, Chrissy, who is it? And

743
00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:19,560
Speaker 7: she goes, well, his name is Leo, and I said okay,

744
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:24,040
Speaker 7: and she said, and he's incarcerated at the Henry County

745
00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:25,200
Speaker 7: Correctional Facility.

746
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:25,759
Speaker 2: And I'm like.

747
00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:27,480
Speaker 15: What.

748
00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:30,400
Speaker 7: And then I said, well, why is he you know,

749
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:33,480
Speaker 7: why is he in prison? And she said, well, he's

750
00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:38,000
Speaker 7: accused of murdering his wife. And I was like stunned,

751
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:42,040
Speaker 7: and I said, you know, what are you doing? That's

752
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:45,120
Speaker 7: you know, kind of nuts. I said, you know, you

753
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:48,439
Speaker 7: have so much going for you. You're smart, you're you're

754
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:51,640
Speaker 7: you know, going forward in your career. Why would you

755
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:53,920
Speaker 7: do something like that? And she said, well, because I

756
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:57,520
Speaker 7: believe he's innocent. And I thought to myself, a lot

757
00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:01,920
Speaker 7: of people say these things all the time, and so

758
00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:05,440
Speaker 7: I was just kind of thrown by it. Because she

759
00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:08,400
Speaker 7: believed so strongly that he was innocent. I think that

760
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:12,120
Speaker 7: she wanted me, as her friend, to validate.

761
00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:15,600
Speaker 2: That, but Cinda wasn't going to be able to do that.

762
00:46:16,719 --> 00:46:20,239
Speaker 7: I told her, point blank, Chrissy, I cannot help you

763
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:22,680
Speaker 7: with this. It puts me in a terrible position.

764
00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:27,080
Speaker 2: Remember, Senda's a cop. She has to think about her career.

765
00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:29,640
Speaker 2: She can't be helping out a friend whose partner is

766
00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:30,160
Speaker 2: in prison.

767
00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:33,200
Speaker 7: Quite frankly didn't know what to say, and there wasn't

768
00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:37,320
Speaker 7: anything that I could do because Leo had been he

769
00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 7: had had a trial, and he had been convicted, and

770
00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:44,400
Speaker 7: he had been sentenced to prison, and there was no

771
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:46,840
Speaker 7: way that I could have gotten involved in that.

772
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:51,320
Speaker 11: At that point, when she knew I was involved with

773
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:55,359
Speaker 11: someone in prison, she cut ties with me. For her,

774
00:46:55,640 --> 00:47:01,480
Speaker 11: that was a big no no. She wanted her reputation

775
00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:07,040
Speaker 11: and her experience and to not have any cloud around her,

776
00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:09,040
Speaker 11: and she told me at the time that's why she

777
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:11,240
Speaker 11: was doing It was very, very painful.

778
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:14,800
Speaker 7: I was worried about her across the board.

779
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:17,719
Speaker 6: Did it seem out of character for her?

780
00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:26,640
Speaker 7: Yes, even though I think Christy is very caring and

781
00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:30,360
Speaker 7: very accepting of things, I kind of thought that that

782
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:32,520
Speaker 7: she was being sucked in.

783
00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:34,600
Speaker 11: That's how I felt.

784
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:38,879
Speaker 2: Sinda tries to keep her distance, but Chrissie keeps giving

785
00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:42,920
Speaker 2: her updates a new thing that she's learning about Leo's case, And.

786
00:47:43,239 --> 00:47:45,879
Speaker 7: Every time I spoke to her, I always thought she's

787
00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:49,160
Speaker 7: gonna tell me, Okay, I can't do this anymore, and

788
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:52,920
Speaker 7: you know this is not working out, and I'm just gonna,

789
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:54,680
Speaker 7: you know, forget about it.

790
00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:55,920
Speaker 15: But she never did.

791
00:47:57,120 --> 00:48:00,959
Speaker 2: By this point, Chrissy is completely obsessed with Leo's case.

792
00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:04,640
Speaker 2: She does everything she can to investigate it on her own,

793
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:09,800
Speaker 2: and then she reads something in the reports. She sees

794
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:13,240
Speaker 2: that there's evidence that can be analyzed for possible DNA.

795
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:18,440
Speaker 11: Trying to get the DNA tested took three years, hearings

796
00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:21,440
Speaker 11: and hearings and hearings. I think three thousand dollars that

797
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:23,520
Speaker 11: I had to pay for by myself. I'm a social worker,

798
00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:29,080
Speaker 11: you know. My salary was social work salary.

799
00:48:30,239 --> 00:48:33,880
Speaker 2: She's finally able to get Michelle's fingernail scrapings tested, but

800
00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:37,600
Speaker 2: it's been too long. The samples have degraded so they

801
00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:41,520
Speaker 2: couldn't draw any conclusive information from them. But there are

802
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:44,680
Speaker 2: also hairs that were found at the crime scene. Maybe

803
00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:47,719
Speaker 2: one of them belongs to the murderer. She tries to

804
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:50,759
Speaker 2: get those tested too, but the.

805
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:53,840
Speaker 11: State attorney, Johnny Guerrero, when we were in this process,

806
00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:54,880
Speaker 11: he had the hair.

807
00:48:55,239 --> 00:48:57,600
Speaker 15: Destroyed, so it was in the process.

808
00:48:57,719 --> 00:49:02,040
Speaker 11: In the process, the hair of samples that we wanted

809
00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:03,080
Speaker 11: to test were destroyed.

810
00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:08,400
Speaker 2: This is heartbreaking and infuriating to Chrissy. Why would they

811
00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:12,799
Speaker 2: destroy evidence? The state attorney says, it's just a routine disposal.

812
00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:16,640
Speaker 2: But to Chrissy, it feels like the state is intentionally

813
00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:19,840
Speaker 2: putting up roadblocks to stop Leo from getting a new trial.

814
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:24,120
Speaker 2: She doesn't give up. There's one more piece of physical

815
00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:26,120
Speaker 2: evidence that she can't stop thinking about.

816
00:49:29,640 --> 00:49:33,959
Speaker 11: Always always. The fingerprints was a big question in my mind,

817
00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:37,960
Speaker 11: because there's fingerprints in the car.

818
00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:46,320
Speaker 2: Those fingerprints were never identified. Investigators just knew they didn't

819
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:48,799
Speaker 2: belong to anyone whose prints should have been in the car.

820
00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:53,439
Speaker 2: They didn't match Leo or Michelle. The Prince also didn't

821
00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:57,360
Speaker 2: belong to Leo's father. In fact, no one else's fingerprints

822
00:49:57,400 --> 00:49:58,480
Speaker 2: were found in the Mazda.

823
00:49:59,560 --> 00:50:03,560
Speaker 11: This whose fingerprints are they?

824
00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:05,480
Speaker 7: I don't know. Nobody know.

825
00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:08,440
Speaker 11: Nobody can answer, Well, they have to be somebody's fingerprints.

826
00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:11,759
Speaker 11: So is it the tow truck driver or is it

827
00:50:12,719 --> 00:50:16,680
Speaker 11: a mechanic or is it a random person? Or It

828
00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:20,359
Speaker 11: was always bothered me. Obviously somebody was in the car,

829
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:21,720
Speaker 11: somebody knew something.

830
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:22,480
Speaker 1: Who was it?

831
00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:23,080
Speaker 4: What do they know?

832
00:50:26,560 --> 00:50:29,120
Speaker 2: So Chrissy keeps working at it, intent on trying to

833
00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:33,360
Speaker 2: figure out this piece of the mystery. At the same time, Cinda,

834
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:36,719
Speaker 2: Chrissy's cop friend, is working hard in her new job

835
00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:39,520
Speaker 2: as an investigator for the State Attorney's office in Palm

836
00:50:39,600 --> 00:50:43,840
Speaker 2: Beach County. Cinda had come from a small sheriff's office

837
00:50:43,880 --> 00:50:46,440
Speaker 2: in a rural county to Palm Beach County, which is

838
00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:51,000
Speaker 2: a larger, more metropolitan area, and there she meets a

839
00:50:51,080 --> 00:50:56,960
Speaker 2: young prosecutor. His name is Scott Cup. You might recognize

840
00:50:57,000 --> 00:51:00,719
Speaker 2: that name. He's now Judge Scott Cup, who first tipped

841
00:51:00,760 --> 00:51:03,319
Speaker 2: me to Leo Schofield's case by handing me a business card.

842
00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:06,480
Speaker 2: Can you talk about what Scott was like as a

843
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:09,120
Speaker 2: young prosecutor, you know, what kind of person he was

844
00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:10,160
Speaker 2: at that time in his life.

845
00:51:12,960 --> 00:51:17,600
Speaker 7: Yeah, well, let's see, he was aggressive.

846
00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:21,160
Speaker 2: I think aggressive is a word that I don't really

847
00:51:21,239 --> 00:51:23,800
Speaker 2: see him as that aggressive today, But back then he

848
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:24,719
Speaker 2: was a prosecutor.

849
00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:28,520
Speaker 7: Yes, he was a prosecutor. And I, well, I can

850
00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:32,560
Speaker 7: give you an example. I remember the first time that

851
00:51:32,680 --> 00:51:36,279
Speaker 7: he came down to my office and they had these

852
00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:42,160
Speaker 7: big glass windows that looked out over the courthouse, and

853
00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:44,400
Speaker 7: he looked at me and he said, I want you

854
00:51:44,520 --> 00:51:49,000
Speaker 7: to look outside. And I didn't know it, you know,

855
00:51:49,200 --> 00:51:51,840
Speaker 7: was wrong with him, but I'm like, okay, So I

856
00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:54,680
Speaker 7: looked outside and he says to me, do you see

857
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:58,920
Speaker 7: any orange Groves and I'm like no, and he's like, well,

858
00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:02,160
Speaker 7: do you see any like horse and buggies out there?

859
00:52:02,560 --> 00:52:05,360
Speaker 7: And I'm like no, and he goes, well, welcome to

860
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:10,920
Speaker 7: the big city. So I'm like thinking to myself, what

861
00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:15,879
Speaker 7: a jerk that. Ultimately, you know, I worked with him

862
00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:21,960
Speaker 7: on many many cases and we eventually started seeing each

863
00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:24,000
Speaker 7: other and then eventually we married.

864
00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:28,359
Speaker 2: Not too long after that, Cinda and Scott Cupp moved

865
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:32,160
Speaker 2: back to Hendry County. Sinda takes a job as captain

866
00:52:32,239 --> 00:52:35,879
Speaker 2: with the Sheriff's office. Cup takes off his prosecutor's hat

867
00:52:36,200 --> 00:52:38,719
Speaker 2: and sets up his defense practice in the tiny city

868
00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:42,760
Speaker 2: of LaBelle, Florida. Chrissy is also still in Henry County

869
00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:45,960
Speaker 2: doing social work. One day, she goes to visit one

870
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:48,399
Speaker 2: of her clients who's being held in the county jail.

871
00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:51,440
Speaker 11: One day, I was going into the jail and there

872
00:52:51,520 --> 00:52:53,640
Speaker 11: was an attorney next to me. We're both going through

873
00:52:53,680 --> 00:52:55,320
Speaker 11: the door at the same time. They have to buzz

874
00:52:55,360 --> 00:52:58,800
Speaker 11: you in, and when we got to the desk, we

875
00:52:58,960 --> 00:53:02,560
Speaker 11: both said we were there for the same person. So

876
00:53:02,680 --> 00:53:04,719
Speaker 11: we kind of looked at each other and he's like, oh,

877
00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:07,839
Speaker 11: that's my client. He introduced himself. It was Scott Cup.

878
00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:16,040
Speaker 12: We met, I, you know, seemed to me bright, pretty intelligent.

879
00:53:17,920 --> 00:53:21,640
Speaker 12: I had no idea that Chrissy Carter was Chrissy Schofield

880
00:53:22,440 --> 00:53:25,239
Speaker 12: at that time. She didn't she didn't lead with that.

881
00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:29,560
Speaker 2: Cup was the defense attorney. Chrissy was the social worker

882
00:53:29,680 --> 00:53:32,719
Speaker 2: working with the same client. They talk a bit about

883
00:53:32,760 --> 00:53:35,640
Speaker 2: their client and then both of them leave the jail

884
00:53:35,960 --> 00:53:36,920
Speaker 2: and go home for the day.

885
00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:41,840
Speaker 11: Apparently he told his wife that he met the social

886
00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:45,200
Speaker 11: worker for the same client and told her my name,

887
00:53:45,600 --> 00:53:52,120
Speaker 11: and she, from what he told me, cried and he's like,

888
00:53:52,239 --> 00:53:55,840
Speaker 11: what what just happened? He said, that's my friend Chrissy.

889
00:53:56,680 --> 00:53:59,319
Speaker 11: So that's how we all reconnected.

890
00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:05,400
Speaker 2: Become friendly, Chrissy, Cinda, and Sinda's husband, Scott Cup. And

891
00:54:05,520 --> 00:54:08,479
Speaker 2: it's not long before Chrissy starts sharing again about Leo,

892
00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:12,680
Speaker 2: and that's how Scott Cupp finds out that Chrissy is

893
00:54:12,800 --> 00:54:15,840
Speaker 2: married to a man convicted of murdering his wife.

894
00:54:16,840 --> 00:54:19,960
Speaker 12: And I just like kind of threw my hands up

895
00:54:20,040 --> 00:54:22,400
Speaker 12: and got oh my god. I had no idea she was.

896
00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:25,760
Speaker 2: A whack job, and so she was trying to involved

897
00:54:25,800 --> 00:54:26,600
Speaker 2: in this case.

898
00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:31,239
Speaker 12: Right, which I didn't. I several times said no, no, no, no,

899
00:54:31,680 --> 00:54:35,439
Speaker 12: no no. I just thought this was the typical guy

900
00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:39,640
Speaker 12: getting over on somebody who they met through the prison system,

901
00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:43,319
Speaker 12: convincing them for whatever reason, to marry them so they

902
00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:47,279
Speaker 12: can tool them, whether it's for money, or maybe get

903
00:54:47,360 --> 00:54:51,040
Speaker 12: them some representation to see if they can file something

904
00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:53,040
Speaker 12: on some quote unquote technicality.

905
00:54:53,120 --> 00:54:56,160
Speaker 2: And I want to know part of that. But Chrissy

906
00:54:56,280 --> 00:54:59,759
Speaker 2: is relentless. She's begging Sinda to tell Scott to just

907
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:01,600
Speaker 2: look at Leo's trial transcript.

908
00:55:02,719 --> 00:55:06,960
Speaker 7: I didn't push it and say, oh, well, she's my friend.

909
00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:11,120
Speaker 7: I said, you know, you talk to her, maybe you

910
00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:15,279
Speaker 7: can give her some advice and steer her in a

911
00:55:15,360 --> 00:55:19,000
Speaker 7: direction that you know she needs to go legally.

912
00:55:20,120 --> 00:55:24,000
Speaker 12: And then, and I'm not proud of this, but uh,

913
00:55:24,360 --> 00:55:27,160
Speaker 12: kind of coldly, I said, Okay, here's the deal. I'll

914
00:55:27,239 --> 00:55:29,959
Speaker 12: do it, but she's going to pay me, and she's

915
00:55:30,040 --> 00:55:34,480
Speaker 12: my client. I'm not representing her husband. Okay, I'm not

916
00:55:34,600 --> 00:55:36,560
Speaker 12: going into the prison to talk to this guy. I

917
00:55:36,600 --> 00:55:39,520
Speaker 12: don't know what the hell's going on, but just to

918
00:55:39,600 --> 00:55:43,000
Speaker 12: make this go away, I will review the transcript and

919
00:55:43,080 --> 00:55:48,000
Speaker 12: I'll explain to her why her quote unquote husband is

920
00:55:48,080 --> 00:55:51,000
Speaker 12: in prison for murder. And I thought that would be

921
00:55:51,040 --> 00:55:54,440
Speaker 12: the end of it. I just wanted this to stop

922
00:55:54,800 --> 00:55:58,000
Speaker 12: and just leave me alone about this, And quite frankly,

923
00:55:58,040 --> 00:56:00,799
Speaker 12: I may have said, and I don't want her coming

924
00:56:00,800 --> 00:56:01,560
Speaker 12: over here anymore.

925
00:56:02,120 --> 00:56:02,400
Speaker 4: Okay.

926
00:56:03,760 --> 00:56:06,360
Speaker 2: So Chrissy shows up at Scott Cup's office in LaBelle

927
00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:09,600
Speaker 2: one day with six binders and two thousand plus pages

928
00:56:09,640 --> 00:56:13,880
Speaker 2: of trial transcripts. She leaves them on his desk, and

929
00:56:14,000 --> 00:56:17,160
Speaker 2: later that afternoon he stays true to his word and

930
00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:23,759
Speaker 2: starts reading and reading into the night. The former prosecutor

931
00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:24,919
Speaker 2: is transfixed.

932
00:56:26,200 --> 00:56:31,600
Speaker 12: And I got to the end of the States case

933
00:56:33,040 --> 00:56:36,040
Speaker 12: and closed up binder and just sat there, and I

934
00:56:37,480 --> 00:56:42,600
Speaker 12: think I maybe even outset. Holy shit, this guy didn't

935
00:56:42,640 --> 00:56:43,840
Speaker 12: do it. He couldn't have done it.

936
00:56:47,719 --> 00:56:51,040
Speaker 2: All the overwhelming evidence of Leo's guilt that he expected

937
00:56:51,080 --> 00:56:55,160
Speaker 2: to find in the transcript, it just isn't there. And

938
00:56:55,280 --> 00:56:58,719
Speaker 2: as an experienced prosecutor, he knows it when he sees it.

939
00:57:00,280 --> 00:57:02,840
Speaker 2: Cupp hadn't even read as far as the defense's case,

940
00:57:03,239 --> 00:57:06,320
Speaker 2: and it was already obvious to him that Leo Schofield

941
00:57:06,600 --> 00:57:11,319
Speaker 2: was wrongly convicted. He finishes the transcript and he's even

942
00:57:11,400 --> 00:57:15,080
Speaker 2: more convinced that Leo is an innocent man, and now

943
00:57:15,800 --> 00:57:21,240
Speaker 2: the aggressive prosecutor turned defense attorney is invested. He starts

944
00:57:21,280 --> 00:57:24,400
Speaker 2: poking around to see if there's any physical evidence recovered

945
00:57:24,400 --> 00:57:28,680
Speaker 2: from the original investigation of Michelle's murder. He's not interested

946
00:57:28,760 --> 00:57:31,720
Speaker 2: in any of that bad character evidence or premonition stuff.

947
00:57:32,200 --> 00:57:37,720
Speaker 2: He wants actual forensic evidence, of course, with DNA evidence destroyed.

948
00:57:38,240 --> 00:57:40,320
Speaker 2: He learns what Chrissy has been stuck on for the

949
00:57:40,400 --> 00:57:41,200
Speaker 2: past decade.

950
00:57:42,240 --> 00:57:45,320
Speaker 12: There was a few prints that were found inside the

951
00:57:45,440 --> 00:57:48,240
Speaker 12: vehicle that went unidentified at the time.

952
00:57:49,440 --> 00:57:52,960
Speaker 2: He doesn't understand why detectives didn't do more with the prince.

953
00:57:54,200 --> 00:57:59,320
Speaker 12: Why not expand out? Let's brainstorm, who's got connects to

954
00:57:59,400 --> 00:57:59,880
Speaker 12: that area?

955
00:58:00,800 --> 00:58:00,960
Speaker 4: You know?

956
00:58:01,280 --> 00:58:04,200
Speaker 12: Who are our guys that we know could be, as

957
00:58:04,240 --> 00:58:07,400
Speaker 12: they say on TV, good for this? Why didn't they

958
00:58:07,440 --> 00:58:08,800
Speaker 12: do that? Why wasn't that done?

959
00:58:12,400 --> 00:58:15,680
Speaker 2: Scott Cupp calls up to Tallahassee to the Florida Department

960
00:58:15,680 --> 00:58:17,920
Speaker 2: of Law Enforcement to see if they still have a

961
00:58:18,000 --> 00:58:21,960
Speaker 2: copy of the fingerprints on file. They do, and they

962
00:58:22,040 --> 00:58:26,000
Speaker 2: send him a copy on an index card. Then Cup

963
00:58:26,120 --> 00:58:28,320
Speaker 2: has to decide what to do next.

964
00:58:29,560 --> 00:58:32,560
Speaker 12: At that point, I really didn't know. I like to

965
00:58:32,680 --> 00:58:36,120
Speaker 12: ruminate on things and try to figure out what's the

966
00:58:36,160 --> 00:58:37,280
Speaker 12: best way to go forward.

967
00:58:38,320 --> 00:58:40,600
Speaker 2: Well, he doesn't really get the time to think about

968
00:58:40,640 --> 00:58:43,800
Speaker 2: it because he gives Chrissy the card and Chrissy kind

969
00:58:43,840 --> 00:58:46,640
Speaker 2: of goes behind Scott's back and meets up with Cinda,

970
00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:49,160
Speaker 2: who's now a police captain in Henry County.

971
00:58:50,120 --> 00:58:55,000
Speaker 7: I remember Chrissy wanting to talk to me and coming

972
00:58:55,080 --> 00:59:02,080
Speaker 7: to me and telling me that she had a fingerprint

973
00:59:03,760 --> 00:59:06,920
Speaker 7: and that nobody ran it, and I'm.

974
00:59:06,880 --> 00:59:09,280
Speaker 11: Like, please, please, please figure out a way.

975
00:59:10,240 --> 00:59:14,640
Speaker 7: Chrissy's pretty tenacious, you know. Chrissie's like a dog with

976
00:59:14,720 --> 00:59:18,320
Speaker 7: a bone. She has a cause and she follows through.

977
00:59:19,560 --> 00:59:21,280
Speaker 7: So she handed it to me and she goes here

978
00:59:21,360 --> 00:59:23,640
Speaker 7: it is. And I kind of laughed at her and

979
00:59:23,720 --> 00:59:28,800
Speaker 7: I said, what are you doing with this? And she said,

980
00:59:29,760 --> 00:59:33,960
Speaker 7: could you just see if this print comes back to anybody?

981
00:59:35,120 --> 00:59:38,920
Speaker 7: And I thought to myself, well, apparently it doesn't, because

982
00:59:39,120 --> 00:59:40,160
Speaker 7: nobody's pursued this.

983
00:59:41,360 --> 00:59:42,680
Speaker 11: I didn't know how she was going to do it.

984
00:59:42,920 --> 00:59:44,560
Speaker 11: I was just begging her, begging her, begging her, and

985
00:59:44,640 --> 00:59:45,760
Speaker 11: she said, I'll look into it.

986
00:59:47,200 --> 00:59:48,520
Speaker 7: I said, oh, right, give it to me.

987
00:59:49,840 --> 00:59:50,400
Speaker 13: I did that.

988
00:59:51,880 --> 00:59:55,680
Speaker 7: Probably because at that point I thought, if Chrissy doesn't

989
00:59:55,720 --> 00:59:59,760
Speaker 7: leave me, alone. This is gonna finally make her shut up.

990
01:00:00,800 --> 01:00:04,560
Speaker 7: And so I took the fingerprint and I handed it

991
01:00:04,680 --> 01:00:07,200
Speaker 7: to one of my crime scene detectives and I said

992
01:00:07,240 --> 01:00:10,040
Speaker 7: to him, is there any way that you can find

993
01:00:10,120 --> 01:00:13,320
Speaker 7: out by running this through the database if this comes

994
01:00:13,400 --> 01:00:17,760
Speaker 7: back to anyone? And he said sure, And if you

995
01:00:17,840 --> 01:00:21,040
Speaker 7: want me to be perfectly honest, I thought it was

996
01:00:21,080 --> 01:00:24,840
Speaker 7: going to come back as nothing. Not that I wanted

997
01:00:24,880 --> 01:00:29,760
Speaker 7: it to, but I thought that it would be something

998
01:00:30,400 --> 01:00:34,840
Speaker 7: that was already done and this was just another dead

999
01:00:34,960 --> 01:00:37,960
Speaker 7: end avenue. And again I thought that she was grasping

1000
01:00:38,040 --> 01:00:38,680
Speaker 7: at straws.

1001
01:00:39,680 --> 01:00:42,040
Speaker 13: But he.

1002
01:00:43,640 --> 01:00:46,000
Speaker 7: Came back to me three days later and he said,

1003
01:00:46,960 --> 01:00:55,200
Speaker 7: there's a hit. And I'm like, really, all right, who

1004
01:00:55,240 --> 01:00:58,080
Speaker 7: does it come back to? And he said, a guy

1005
01:00:58,200 --> 01:01:00,800
Speaker 7: named Jeremy Scott, Jerry Scott.

1006
01:01:00,800 --> 01:01:01,919
Speaker 2: Who the fucks Jeremy Scott?

1007
01:01:04,320 --> 01:01:05,000
Speaker 7: Holy shit.

1008
01:01:16,720 --> 01:01:19,800
Speaker 2: Bone Valley is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts

1009
01:01:19,960 --> 01:01:24,520
Speaker 2: in association with Signal Company Number One. Our executive producers

1010
01:01:24,560 --> 01:01:29,720
Speaker 2: are Jason Flahm and Kevin Wordiskak. Kornhaber is our senior producer.

1011
01:01:30,560 --> 01:01:34,920
Speaker 2: Britz Spangler is our sound designer. Roxandra Guidy is our editor.

1012
01:01:35,960 --> 01:01:40,440
Speaker 2: Fact Checking by Maximo Anderson. Our producer and researcher is

1013
01:01:40,600 --> 01:01:45,200
Speaker 2: Kelsey Decker. Our theme song, The One Who's Holding the Stars,

1014
01:01:45,560 --> 01:01:48,160
Speaker 2: is performed by Lee Bob and The Truth. It was

1015
01:01:48,200 --> 01:01:51,480
Speaker 2: written by Leo Schofield and Kevin Herrick in Florida's Hardy

1016
01:01:51,560 --> 01:01:55,960
Speaker 2: Correctional Institution. Bone Valley is written and produced by me

1017
01:01:56,320 --> 01:02:01,120
Speaker 2: Gilbert King. You can follow the show on Instagram, Facebook,

1018
01:02:01,280 --> 01:02:04,720
Speaker 2: and Twitter at Lava for Good. To see photos and

1019
01:02:04,800 --> 01:02:08,320
Speaker 2: documents from our investigation and exclusive behind the scenes content,

1020
01:02:08,720 --> 01:02:11,680
Speaker 2: visit Lava for Good dot com slash Bone Valley