1 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:09,840 Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of Strictly Business, the podcast featuring 2 00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:12,360 Speaker 1: conversations with some of the brightest minds working in the 3 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:16,599 Speaker 1: media Business Today Variety co editor in chief Andrew Wallency. 4 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: Later this month, Hulu will debut the new original mini 5 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:25,439 Speaker 1: series Catch twenty two, an adaptation of the classic nine novel. 6 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:30,480 Speaker 1: Its executive producers include George Clooney, Steve Golan, an industry 7 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:33,600 Speaker 1: legend who recently passed away, as well as one of 8 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:38,200 Speaker 1: Steve's partners at their company, Anonymous Content. Today's guest Richard Brown, 9 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 1: as a veteran producer of programming like Catch twenty two, 10 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:45,640 Speaker 1: True Detective and Outlaw King. He's got great perspective to 11 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:49,239 Speaker 1: share what it's like navigating the fast changing market for 12 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:53,640 Speaker 1: premium entertainment. Thanks for coming in now. If you would 13 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 1: have told me, even I think five years ago, you're 14 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:00,640 Speaker 1: gonna do this Catch twenty two remake George Clooney is attached, 15 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 1: I immediately would assume, well, great, well, that'll work well 16 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:07,520 Speaker 1: on the awards circuit. It'll be a film, it'll be 17 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:11,399 Speaker 1: in consideration, it's sun Dance. Now that we're seeing it 18 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:15,960 Speaker 1: as a serialized television show, I mean, I guess would 19 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 1: you agree with my presumption that this would have been 20 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 1: unthinkable some time ago. Oh sure, I think that's certainly 21 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:24,760 Speaker 1: the case. Some everything's changed in the last five, six, seven, 22 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:28,039 Speaker 1: eight years quite radically. For me, it began to change 23 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:31,679 Speaker 1: when I heard about the Netflix deal to buy and 24 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 1: make House of Cards. Right, So when that deal happened, 25 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:38,680 Speaker 1: they a pre bought twenty six episodes of that show 26 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:41,640 Speaker 1: based on you know, David Fincher and Bo William and 27 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:45,039 Speaker 1: you know that the team who made that show's essential pitch, right, 28 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 1: and um. Prior to that, the best you could really 29 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:50,640 Speaker 1: hope for in television, I think was a pilot deal 30 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:52,240 Speaker 1: that was sort of the Gold's anim was to get 31 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 1: a pilot pilot deale, let's say, HBO or Showtime or 32 00:01:55,160 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 1: you know. And when Netflix bought that show about How 33 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 1: of Cards and committed to two seasons and in fact 34 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:05,120 Speaker 1: only to the US rights because at that point Netflix 35 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 1: only are played it also in the US their streaming 36 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:10,679 Speaker 1: service at least, and so the producers were able to 37 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:13,640 Speaker 1: sell the rest of the world, you know, separately, territory 38 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 1: by territory. It just seemed like it was transformative to 39 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 1: the television business, right because now it was a different 40 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:21,120 Speaker 1: set of rules. You know, Now everybody was have to 41 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:24,520 Speaker 1: adjust their business models to compete with Netflix if Netflix 42 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 1: were serious, which they clearly were, and meant business about 43 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 1: aggressively buying exciting, prestigious content. And so this was a 44 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 1: moment where, you know, I was quite frustrated with trying 45 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:39,520 Speaker 1: to make independent movies, um, and trying to find them 46 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:41,919 Speaker 1: find the money. It was always a struggle. You got 47 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 1: it done, but it was always a struggle. And I 48 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 1: was interested in, um, what the possibilities of television We're 49 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:51,400 Speaker 1: going to be in this new world of streaming. So 50 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:53,520 Speaker 1: when Netflix made that deal, I think Steve Goland and 51 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 1: I recognized this was a moment where possibly we could 52 00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 1: try new paradigms and new models of television. And this 53 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:01,960 Speaker 1: is where To Detect came from, because we developed True 54 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 1: Detective as a what used to be called a mini 55 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:07,240 Speaker 1: series and that people called perhaps limited series or events series, 56 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:10,240 Speaker 1: but we developed it as a film, which is to say, 57 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:13,639 Speaker 1: we developed the scripts internally, We attached a director to 58 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 1: direct all of its carri for Canaga, and then we 59 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:19,080 Speaker 1: attached Woody Harrison and Matthew McConaughey. It's a star in 60 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:22,920 Speaker 1: it before we made a deal with any broadcaster. So 61 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 1: the time we went out to meet the various broadcasters 62 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 1: and distributors, it was a pretty compelling proposition, and so 63 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:33,760 Speaker 1: we were able to choose the right home for the 64 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 1: project and not only legislate the economic terms, but also 65 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 1: legislate the creative methodology by which we'd make the show. 66 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:45,000 Speaker 1: And so we sensually made True Detective season one like 67 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 1: an eight hour movie and then cut it into episodes, 68 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:52,080 Speaker 1: which was atypical for television at that time. And because 69 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 1: the first season of True Detective had such a large impact, 70 00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:57,400 Speaker 1: I think it opened up space to play around with 71 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 1: different models of TV, different paradigm, different structures, different episode lengths, 72 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 1: different you know. So Catch twenty two is the six 73 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 1: episode six hour series, which I think a few years 74 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 1: ago nobody would have been that interested in the sixth 75 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 1: hour series. Are there other formats still that you think 76 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 1: are worth experimenting with it? You're looking for the netflix 77 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 1: is and hbos of the world to try, uh, anthology 78 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 1: series or things I'm not even thinking of. I think 79 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:27,839 Speaker 1: the space that's opened up is a space where you 80 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 1: can tell stories that are too long to be movies 81 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 1: but don't perhaps want to be ongoing, you know, multi 82 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 1: season TV series, so the space of six, eight or 83 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:41,240 Speaker 1: ten hour stories. And so in the case of Catch 84 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 1: twenty two, you know, Mike Nichols made a film from 85 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 1: Catch twenty to in ninetevent and obviously might Nichols was 86 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:49,720 Speaker 1: a genius, But the film is not not great. It's good. 87 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:52,080 Speaker 1: I mean, that's great moments in it. But I think 88 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 1: our takeaway Luke and David and I and originally was 89 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:58,920 Speaker 1: that perhaps it's very difficult. It's a very difficult book 90 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:01,360 Speaker 1: to adapt into a two movie. It's a very dense 91 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 1: and complex circular structure, and so we thought that perhaps 92 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 1: given six or eight or ten hours, we could figure 93 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:11,159 Speaker 1: out how to tell Catch twenty two, and that's in 94 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:14,279 Speaker 1: fact what we have attempted to do. When you watch 95 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 1: Catch twenty two True Detective as well, there is something 96 00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:23,919 Speaker 1: so filmmak about every scene, every It just doesn't feel 97 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 1: like a TV show would have felt five ten years ago. 98 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:31,559 Speaker 1: Do you think you've kind of blown the doors open 99 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:35,520 Speaker 1: in terms of inviting TV producers of all types to 100 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:39,719 Speaker 1: really kind of approach that that blurred line between film 101 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 1: and television series in a whole new way. I mean, 102 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 1: I think it's always interesting to try and find a 103 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:47,599 Speaker 1: sweet spot between film and TV, right, to see how 104 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:51,560 Speaker 1: close you can bring film and TV. Obviously, the distinction 105 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:55,159 Speaker 1: in in traditional movies and traditional TV has been that 106 00:05:55,839 --> 00:06:00,840 Speaker 1: TV is generally, generally, you know, traditional television has been 107 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:04,279 Speaker 1: run by creatively run by the writer producer, whereas, of 108 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 1: course films are traditionally creatively run by the director. And 109 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 1: both of those models make plenty of sense, but they 110 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 1: also both have limitations, right. The limitation in the film 111 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:18,200 Speaker 1: has been sometimes that the writer is devalued and less 112 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:21,799 Speaker 1: of like, less central to the role of making the film. 113 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:24,480 Speaker 1: Once the script is ready to shoot, the director sort 114 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:28,080 Speaker 1: of takes over and makes the movie. And in obviously 115 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:32,479 Speaker 1: not always, but typically and in television, the writer producers 116 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:34,839 Speaker 1: really like the captain of the ship, right, And so 117 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 1: the directors who are coming into direct episodes are very 118 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:41,760 Speaker 1: often sort of working within parameters that have been predefined 119 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 1: and decisions have been made creat decisions have been made 120 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 1: already by the producer writer, So you're not necessarily maximizing 121 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:51,719 Speaker 1: the role of the director as a as a visionary 122 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:54,280 Speaker 1: who has a command of the tools of cinema. So 123 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 1: from in my understanding, my sense of things is that 124 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 1: there wasn't very little cinema and TV because the methodology 125 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:03,479 Speaker 1: of making TV didn't really allow for that. So this 126 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:08,039 Speaker 1: sort of hybrid model of making episodic, this hybrid model 127 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 1: that's you know, neither traditional television nor traditional filmmaking, I 128 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 1: think allows you to find, look for and hopefully find 129 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 1: a kind of sweet spot. The first piece of that 130 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 1: is elevating the role of the director. In this case 131 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:23,840 Speaker 1: of True Detective, the idea was, of course to have 132 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:26,560 Speaker 1: one director directing the whole season, and you can have 133 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 1: a kind of elevated cinematic grammar. And in the case 134 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 1: of Catch twenty two, we have three directors, but it 135 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 1: was three directors really working as one director, George and 136 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 1: Grant and Alan all sort of working as a team. 137 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 1: So and we shot it like a movie. Really we 138 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 1: blocked shot it, We crossboarded and shot the whole thing, 139 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 1: and so, you know, not not we didn't covet out 140 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 1: any episodes. It was it was one giant shoot. I'm 141 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 1: also wondering, as you work with the Netflix is of 142 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 1: the world. There seems to be the leading streaming services, 143 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 1: you know, snapping up the elusive services of big producers 144 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:08,760 Speaker 1: like a Shonda Rhymes, Ryan Murphy. What does that mean 145 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 1: for a producer like yourself in terms of the opportunities 146 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 1: out there? Could we see you you know, for instance, 147 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:17,239 Speaker 1: work with just one company or how do you play 148 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 1: this new field? I mean, for me, it's always um 149 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:23,400 Speaker 1: being about material. And I think one of the things 150 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 1: I learned from Steve Golan, who I work with for 151 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 1: many years, UM was really, you know, it's all about 152 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 1: it's all about the material. Stupid to be simplistic about it. Right. So, 153 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 1: as a producer and as a creative producer, my job 154 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:39,280 Speaker 1: initially to identify a story that I want to tell, 155 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 1: whether I find the idea or writer brings me the idea, 156 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:45,480 Speaker 1: or a filmmaker, and I finally it is together. The 157 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:49,559 Speaker 1: mission is to develop a script or scripts that are 158 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 1: that are great and compelling. And once you have a 159 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 1: compelling script, then perhaps you can attract you know, the 160 00:08:56,240 --> 00:08:58,959 Speaker 1: necessary talents to bring it to life, whether that be 161 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:03,080 Speaker 1: the director or the actors, and then ultimately the broadcasters 162 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:06,440 Speaker 1: and network, the studio, the finance, um and then the audience. Right. 163 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:09,640 Speaker 1: So for me, it always starts with just developing great materials. 164 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 1: So my I see my job as Initially, UM all 165 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 1: about developing with writers, developing great material which will then 166 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:20,880 Speaker 1: in turn attract filmmakers and actors and distributors and eventually 167 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:23,000 Speaker 1: the audience. So nothing really changes, right, it's still the 168 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:27,960 Speaker 1: same model. Well, you could still have a deal with 169 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 1: Netflix for a lot of money and just exclusively provide 170 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 1: for them. I mean, are you willing to do that? 171 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:37,559 Speaker 1: Or is what you're saying the nature of the creativity 172 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 1: involved has to lead you to different kinds of companies. 173 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:43,120 Speaker 1: I mean, never say never, right, if someone offers the 174 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:46,400 Speaker 1: right deal with the right distributor, like that's saying, Netflix 175 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 1: off is the right deal, you might look at you 176 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 1: You obviously would look at that. But personally, I've enjoyed 177 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:54,760 Speaker 1: so far at least um project by project choosing the 178 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:58,200 Speaker 1: right home and typically, again, this was something that Steve 179 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:01,079 Speaker 1: felt strongly about. Steve girl An on am us UM. 180 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:03,840 Speaker 1: Typically we try to control the rights up to the 181 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 1: point where we know exactly what we're doing, we know 182 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:07,320 Speaker 1: who's making it, we know it's going to be in it, 183 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:09,280 Speaker 1: we know how much roughly we need to make it, 184 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:13,439 Speaker 1: and then based on on on the set of assumptions, 185 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:18,840 Speaker 1: we know who the right partners are. Going to be 186 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:21,440 Speaker 1: because it's not necessarily the right same partners to each project, right. 187 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 1: You know, Netflix was for sure the right partner for 188 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 1: Outlooking because it was just very obvious they had an 189 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:31,680 Speaker 1: extraordinary enthusiasm and appetite for it, and they weren't scared 190 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:34,360 Speaker 1: of the scale of it. They loved the filmmaker. Um 191 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 1: and that platform seemed like the perfect platform for a 192 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:40,200 Speaker 1: project of that of that sort of ambition and the 193 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:43,440 Speaker 1: fact that it wafers. Was it in theater? Is at all? Yeah? 194 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 1: A few theaters? Yeah? I mean you know that it 195 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:48,680 Speaker 1: goes into a few theaters and Netflix, um film model, 196 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:52,080 Speaker 1: you know, not that many, certainly enough to qualify for 197 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:55,319 Speaker 1: awards consideration. Um and is at all you care? I mean, 198 00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 1: in other words, where do you draw the line? It 199 00:10:56,920 --> 00:11:01,839 Speaker 1: seems like different creatives have different demands or interests as 200 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:06,760 Speaker 1: far as exposure to the theater for their content. I 201 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:08,599 Speaker 1: think one has to be honest and just realize the 202 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:12,680 Speaker 1: world is changing, you know. Um, Watching a film on 203 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 1: TV when I was a kid meant looking at a 204 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 1: little box in a corner. Right now, watching a film 205 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:22,200 Speaker 1: at home means, you know, very often for many people 206 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 1: it's a much much larger screen, and so that the 207 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:27,839 Speaker 1: experience a little closer to the experience of going to 208 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:30,840 Speaker 1: the cinema, of course, the difference being that you're not 209 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 1: with a bunch of stranger You're not a room of strangers. Right. 210 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 1: I don't think the theatrical experience will go away, because 211 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 1: I think people still want to get out of their 212 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 1: homes and go do something right. And getting out of 213 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:41,760 Speaker 1: out of your house and going to see a film, 214 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:45,319 Speaker 1: you know, with your husband, wife, boyfriend, girlfriend, kids, et cetera, 215 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:48,240 Speaker 1: is you know, it's still one of the best ways 216 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 1: you can have an evening's entertainment, whether necessarily going broke. 217 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:55,320 Speaker 1: I mean, concerts now are extraordinarily expensive, and the theater 218 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:58,120 Speaker 1: and other forms of entertainment. I think the movie going 219 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:00,719 Speaker 1: experience is a great and be affordable, and I think 220 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:03,240 Speaker 1: it's a core part of American culture and global culture 221 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:05,320 Speaker 1: in fact, so I don't think it goes away, but 222 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:07,320 Speaker 1: I think certainly it co exists, and I think the 223 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 1: experience of watching a film at home. Now that the 224 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:12,400 Speaker 1: experience of watching a film at home is so much 225 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:16,520 Speaker 1: better than it used to be, it's fine, um. And 226 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 1: I really admire what Netflix have done because they've they've 227 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:21,959 Speaker 1: they're making a lot of films that other people perhaps wouldn't. 228 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 1: They're taking risk the people wouldn't, and I think the 229 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:27,440 Speaker 1: films are being very widely seen by a much much 230 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 1: larger audience than would be possible if those films were, 231 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:33,920 Speaker 1: you know, beholden to the theatrical model. M You know, 232 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:36,760 Speaker 1: we've talked a number of times in this conversation about 233 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:39,920 Speaker 1: Steve Golan, who we should explain for for those who 234 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 1: don't know. And if you're in Hollywood, you knew the 235 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:45,840 Speaker 1: man because he was a legend, was associated with award 236 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:49,680 Speaker 1: winning films like Spotlight The Revenant was really replicating that 237 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 1: success in television with Mr Robot thirteen reasons Why not 238 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 1: um talk about your association with him, which goes back 239 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:01,199 Speaker 1: not quite to the beginning of anonymous content. But how 240 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:03,959 Speaker 1: did this all come together? For you guys? I knew 241 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 1: Steve from by His first company was called Propaganda, which 242 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 1: was a music video and commercial production company. I think 243 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:14,360 Speaker 1: Steve pioneered the model of helping to develop directors from 244 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 1: music videos and commercials into features. So he worked with 245 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:20,880 Speaker 1: Spike Jones, for example, as a commercial director, and then 246 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:23,360 Speaker 1: produced Bike's first movie, being John Malkovich, and this was 247 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 1: a model that Steve kind of I think pioneered one thing. 248 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 1: Just to say, right off the bat, Steve was a 249 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 1: visionary and all aspects of his career, he was ahead 250 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 1: of the curve um. So I met him socially around 251 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 1: that time because I was living in Los Angeles. I've 252 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:41,040 Speaker 1: moved here from the UK in my early twenties. I 253 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 1: was working in music, so I was working on at 254 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:45,800 Speaker 1: that time music videos with some of these great young 255 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:49,840 Speaker 1: directors like Spike Jones and Michelle Gandry, and most of 256 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:53,080 Speaker 1: those directors were represented by Propaganda. So I just knew 257 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 1: Steve from around and from being in the same ecosystem 258 00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:58,160 Speaker 1: as him. And a few years later, once I've begun 259 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:02,720 Speaker 1: to transition from music into film, I called Steve and 260 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 1: said I was going to be a producer. And Steve said, 261 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 1: you know words the effect of, you know, you're an idiot. 262 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:10,439 Speaker 1: Why would you Why would you do that? It's the 263 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 1: worst job in the world. And I told him, you know, 264 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:15,480 Speaker 1: I was in fact going to do it anyway, and 265 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 1: he's the Okay, fine, come to do it with me. 266 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 1: Just sort of classic Steve. You know, Steve backed me 267 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:22,240 Speaker 1: more or less from the beginning of my producer my 268 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:27,520 Speaker 1: producing life. And yeah, he started off as a first 269 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:30,200 Speaker 1: look overall deal with Anonymous, and that was early in 270 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 1: anonymous his life, after he'd left Propaganda and started Anonymous. 271 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:36,840 Speaker 1: And he really taught me. I mean, he told I. 272 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 1: It occurred to me that the night at his memorial 273 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:43,920 Speaker 1: service that you know, I would say, the majority of 274 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 1: what I know about producing that has any value I 275 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:50,280 Speaker 1: learned from Steve. But it also occurred to me that 276 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:53,040 Speaker 1: many of the people in that room that night probably 277 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 1: feel that exact same way, which is a pretty extraordinary legacy, 278 00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 1: right that. You know, you so many people who are 279 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:03,080 Speaker 1: doing great things in our business, I think feel that 280 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:07,480 Speaker 1: they learned a key part of what they do from Steve, 281 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:09,360 Speaker 1: or did learn a key part of what they do 282 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:12,760 Speaker 1: from Steve. He was a leader, he was a good guy, 283 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:16,680 Speaker 1: He had great taste, He was effective. I think, um, 284 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:20,080 Speaker 1: someone once told me that, you know, the ideal partner 285 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 1: in this business, or perhaps any business, is someone who 286 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 1: has great taste, someone who is effective, and someone who's 287 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:28,920 Speaker 1: a decent human. And d was all three. And I 288 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:30,800 Speaker 1: think you often find people who are maybe two of 289 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:33,360 Speaker 1: the three. It's quite hard to find three of the three, 290 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 1: especially that decent human beings could arguments plenty of people 291 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 1: in this town and succeed precisely by not being a 292 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:40,960 Speaker 1: decent year. But I think that's the point, right. So 293 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 1: you get people who we've all come across them, people 294 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 1: who have perhaps good taste and are effective, but quite 295 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:50,000 Speaker 1: can be monsters, you know. I mean, it won't shock 296 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:52,960 Speaker 1: anyone to if I say, like Harvey for example, right, 297 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 1: great taste and highly effective, but you know, problematic person 298 00:15:57,160 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 1: understatement of the year, Yeah, you know, so um, you know. 299 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 1: And then there are people I think you have a 300 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 1: really good taste who are decent people, but probab probably 301 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:09,360 Speaker 1: find it difficult to be effective within you know, within 302 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:11,560 Speaker 1: Hollywood and making things happen and all of the you know, 303 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:15,240 Speaker 1: the challenges and difficulties that arise. And Steve was able 304 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:18,080 Speaker 1: to to to be extraordinarily effective in all parts of 305 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 1: his career whilst retaining his decency and his taste, you know. 306 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 1: I mean he would joke about, you know that he 307 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 1: wouldn't wouldn't wouldn't it be great to make you know, 308 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 1: superhero you know, franchises, But it just wasn't his taste. 309 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 1: So he never actually tried to do it. His taste 310 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 1: was much more hybrad than that, and ultimately he just 311 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 1: followed his taste and empowered everyone who worked with him 312 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 1: to do the same thing. And how did you work 313 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 1: alongside him exactly? I mean, where you just sort of 314 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 1: co producers or I'm just kidding, it was there a 315 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:50,280 Speaker 1: day to day anonymous content management in terms of what 316 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 1: you guys were doing as well. Anonymous has never been 317 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 1: very bureaucratic. It's always been, um, you know, quite loose 318 00:16:57,640 --> 00:16:59,960 Speaker 1: with Steve. Everyone sort of who's part of the kind 319 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 1: company has it's grown, has a key relationship with Steve, 320 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 1: and they speak to Steve about when they need help 321 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:07,160 Speaker 1: or they need advice, and Steve would would be there. 322 00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:10,679 Speaker 1: But more or less, it's quite entrepreneurial within the company. 323 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 1: So the different people who are making different things and 324 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 1: managing different people generally sort of follow their own ideas 325 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:20,240 Speaker 1: and vision. And then you know, as I say, Steve's 326 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:24,640 Speaker 1: a sort of mentor guide, you know, a friend when necessary. Um, 327 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:27,200 Speaker 1: so it was it was quite loose there. There is 328 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:29,639 Speaker 1: there is a weekly has always been a weekly meeting. 329 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 1: An anonymous reverend sort of catches up with what everyone 330 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:35,120 Speaker 1: else is doing, but it's UM. It's pretty loose as 331 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:38,919 Speaker 1: far as companies of the size it now is UM GO. 332 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:41,680 Speaker 1: I think that's the way Steve liked it. He liked 333 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 1: to empower people to find their own way and then 334 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 1: if they got in trouble, like go to him, which 335 00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:49,679 Speaker 1: I often did. Really cool. If I had a problem, 336 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:51,359 Speaker 1: I can go to Steve and he generally would have 337 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:55,240 Speaker 1: some pretty sound and pragmatic advice is to have had 338 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 1: to resolve it. So what what is the future now 339 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:02,199 Speaker 1: of Anonymous content without him? Is that? I think? I 340 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:04,399 Speaker 1: think it's a group of people who have who have 341 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:08,240 Speaker 1: learned from Steve that are there and and and there 342 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:12,320 Speaker 1: are inspired by who Steve was, and they will they 343 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:15,120 Speaker 1: will continue with the same ethos. You know, it will 344 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:17,760 Speaker 1: be difficult. It'll be difficult given that there is a 345 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:22,600 Speaker 1: there's a giant hole by Steve, you know, was UM. 346 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:25,359 Speaker 1: But I do think that everybody, all the key people 347 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:28,040 Speaker 1: that are anonymous, having UM learned from Steve and having 348 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:31,080 Speaker 1: you know, really cared about UM, the quality of what 349 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 1: they do will continue along the same lines. UM. I 350 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 1: myself a few months ago made a decision to to 351 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:40,720 Speaker 1: actually leave an honest to stop my own company, which 352 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:43,439 Speaker 1: is I'm in the middle of doing, and Steve was 353 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 1: it wouldn't be surprisingly genuine listening to this that he 354 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:50,480 Speaker 1: was extremely supportive of that venture. So I'm sort of 355 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 1: in the middle of UM stepping out and I'm starting 356 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 1: my own company, but I remain partners with Anonymous on 357 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:01,720 Speaker 1: many existing projects and ventures. Interesting, but so it sounds 358 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:03,800 Speaker 1: like a big step for you. What what prompted it? 359 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:06,480 Speaker 1: You know, I was approached by some some people who 360 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:08,560 Speaker 1: I had a good relationship with who often to back me, 361 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 1: and it felt like this would be a moment to 362 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:13,919 Speaker 1: try and see if I was capable of building something 363 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 1: on my own. Having been with Steve for more Anonymous 364 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:22,240 Speaker 1: for fourteen years, it felt like, you know, I should, 365 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 1: I should try. So I'm going to try. Yeah, I 366 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 1: may mess it up, but I'm going to give it 367 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:29,440 Speaker 1: a shot. To give it a shot, you gotta respect that. 368 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:31,480 Speaker 1: But I'm curious, is there do you have a vision 369 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 1: of what you want to build? Is it in the 370 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:37,159 Speaker 1: same sort of production slash management format. There won't be 371 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:38,879 Speaker 1: a management component to it. It's going to be a 372 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:42,359 Speaker 1: production company, and I want to make films and TV 373 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:47,639 Speaker 1: and docuseries. Also UM document documentaries and docuseriies. But you know, 374 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:50,800 Speaker 1: I think that the area I'm most excited about UM 375 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:53,840 Speaker 1: is limited series. It's the sort of six eight ten 376 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:57,159 Speaker 1: hour events series that we've discussed already, This notion of 377 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:00,480 Speaker 1: filmmaker driven to TV in which the film maker is 378 00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:04,280 Speaker 1: central and it's a real collaboration between a filmmaker and 379 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:06,720 Speaker 1: a writer and a producer to working together to try 380 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:09,600 Speaker 1: and try and make it's a It's a relatively new 381 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:12,399 Speaker 1: form um. I mean, there was a period in the 382 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:15,000 Speaker 1: seventies and early eighties and in America where mini series 383 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 1: had a life and a currency which went away. But 384 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 1: this new you know, epoch of it feels like a 385 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:25,160 Speaker 1: more elevated version, right, It's a more cinematic version of 386 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:27,359 Speaker 1: what TV can be. And this interests me a lot. 387 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:30,240 Speaker 1: So this is I think my main focus. Well, I mean, 388 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 1: you've clearly established you know how to deliver on these 389 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:38,479 Speaker 1: limited series. Uh. Do you think, though, as sometimes happens 390 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 1: in the business, where a certain kind of content from 391 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:45,160 Speaker 1: genre or sub genre, has its moment in the sun 392 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 1: and then the sun fades just as quickly, or do 393 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 1: you think it's going to have sort of real staying power. 394 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:53,639 Speaker 1: We're going to see a lot more of us. I 395 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:55,760 Speaker 1: can't say for sure, but it certainly seems that there's 396 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:58,439 Speaker 1: a large global appetite for these sort of you know, 397 00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:01,879 Speaker 1: limit limited series. It seems like, and I hear this 398 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:05,119 Speaker 1: is often from people wherever whenever I'm traveling, that people 399 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:09,000 Speaker 1: seem to be really excited about episodic content that they 400 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:11,359 Speaker 1: know has an ending, even if it comes back in 401 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:14,399 Speaker 1: another series in a different form, like if you anthologize it, 402 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:17,479 Speaker 1: for example. I think people it seems like having not 403 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 1: had that option for many years, I mean, the younger 404 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 1: generation never having never had it. This idea of you know, 405 00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:27,679 Speaker 1: a series with the beginning, middle and an end seems 406 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 1: to have a lot of traction. And as long as 407 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:33,760 Speaker 1: that's the case, I'll continue to try and make those shows. 408 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:37,880 Speaker 1: And I mean it seems though that limited series come 409 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:42,000 Speaker 1: from a limited supply of molds. I mean, for instance, 410 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:45,600 Speaker 1: we were talking earlier almost ingest about you know, superhero 411 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 1: content or movies, and that wasn't what you were Steve 412 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:52,679 Speaker 1: was about. But could you try something like that for 413 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:55,399 Speaker 1: a genre like superheroes and just I'm just curious how 414 00:21:55,480 --> 00:22:01,480 Speaker 1: brought a palette you're approaching limited series space with I 415 00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:04,639 Speaker 1: can only follow my own taste, right, So it's a 416 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:07,439 Speaker 1: question always of finding the story that excites you, the 417 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:10,159 Speaker 1: story that But some producers, by the way, don't define 418 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:12,359 Speaker 1: it by their own tast I just that's the only 419 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:13,880 Speaker 1: way I know how to do it right. Sure, if 420 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:17,199 Speaker 1: I was trying to develop or maker series or a 421 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:20,320 Speaker 1: movie with something that I didn't understand or love, I 422 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:22,080 Speaker 1: wouldn't be very good at it, right. I wouldn't be 423 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:24,200 Speaker 1: any value or used to the process. I don't think. 424 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:28,239 Speaker 1: Um and certainly that that. I think Steve was that 425 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 1: way through his career. So and he attracted people to 426 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:32,360 Speaker 1: work with him who also felt that way. So that's 427 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:34,520 Speaker 1: the ecosystem and the culture that I've lived in for 428 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:37,440 Speaker 1: most of my career. Um And you know, by the way, 429 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:39,359 Speaker 1: sometimes your taste lets you down. It's not like you 430 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:41,120 Speaker 1: know your taste is always right, but at least it's 431 00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:43,159 Speaker 1: your taste right, So at least if you fail, that 432 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:46,520 Speaker 1: you fail based on your own ideas and feelings, rather 433 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:50,120 Speaker 1: than trying trying to second guess the market, for example, 434 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:52,119 Speaker 1: which I wouldn't really know how to do, you know, 435 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:54,119 Speaker 1: I don't. I often hear people saying the market wants this, 436 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:56,600 Speaker 1: the market wants that. I just I just don't know 437 00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 1: how to do that. I mean, I how to find 438 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:00,439 Speaker 1: things that excite me. And if I or if they 439 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:04,120 Speaker 1: excite me, they might excite other people. I would hope 440 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 1: that would excites some other people too. And certainly that 441 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:09,040 Speaker 1: starts with and again we alluded to this, but if 442 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 1: the story excites me and the script excites me, then 443 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:15,960 Speaker 1: one hopes that it excites a filmmaker, then it excites actors, um. 444 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:18,040 Speaker 1: And then once you start to put that together, then 445 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:23,399 Speaker 1: hopefully that the end result excites the audience. UM. But 446 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:27,040 Speaker 1: that's the that the short answers is just about finding 447 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:29,240 Speaker 1: stories you care about, stories you'll do anything to tell 448 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:31,679 Speaker 1: because it's really hard, you know, I mean, there are 449 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:33,840 Speaker 1: harder jobs in the world. They don't understand, like you know, 450 00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:37,760 Speaker 1: we're not you know, we're not we're not curing diseases here. 451 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:40,440 Speaker 1: But it's hard, you know, it's there's so many obstacles 452 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 1: to any things made, as you very well know, and 453 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:45,840 Speaker 1: sometimes it takes years and you have to be really 454 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:48,520 Speaker 1: committed to spend years. But when you're the guy who 455 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 1: did True Detective, doesn't that sort of make some obstacles 456 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:54,399 Speaker 1: fall away, maybe some, maybe some in the sense that 457 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:56,800 Speaker 1: when you're chasing the rights to the thing, you have 458 00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 1: more credibility, you have more legitimacy, but at the same 459 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:02,400 Speaker 1: time not that much, because you still have to then 460 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 1: develop the thing and make it great, and you still 461 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:06,640 Speaker 1: have to choose make the right choices along the way. 462 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:09,720 Speaker 1: It's who's gonna who's gonna who are going to be 463 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 1: your partners in it, both creatively and from a business 464 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 1: point of view. And it's not like, you know, if 465 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:18,440 Speaker 1: you're the producer of true deetective doesn't mean that someone's 466 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:20,360 Speaker 1: calling you and saying I will finance your next thing, 467 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:23,480 Speaker 1: whatever it is. It doesn't. That's unfortunately not how it works. 468 00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:25,639 Speaker 1: You then have to you know, when you next go 469 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 1: out with something, people are gonna listen. So so perhaps 470 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 1: there is less resistance. There's a bit more accessibility. I mean, really, 471 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:35,600 Speaker 1: to be a good producer, I think you need taste 472 00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 1: and access. Taste being the taste the ability to identify 473 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:44,440 Speaker 1: interesting ideas, interesting filmmakers, interesting writers, etcetera, etcetera. And then 474 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:47,879 Speaker 1: access being the ability to access you know, money, distribution 475 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:51,000 Speaker 1: and and the industry at large. Right, even just the 476 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:55,720 Speaker 1: ability to for example, um, get these true detective scripts 477 00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:57,399 Speaker 1: in front of carry food canugurt? Right, that was just 478 00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:00,080 Speaker 1: a question of knowing carry and having enough credibility. He 479 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 1: would look at it when it came his way. Or 480 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 1: the same thing with George and Catch twenty two. Right 481 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 1: when I when you called Brian Lord and you've you've, 482 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:09,200 Speaker 1: you've made a few things. He's more likely perhaps to 483 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 1: take seriously the phone call um. But at the end 484 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:15,879 Speaker 1: of the day, even if you're taken more seriously, the 485 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:19,000 Speaker 1: material has to speak for itself. Right. The first thing 486 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:22,600 Speaker 1: I really learned early on. The first movie I produced 487 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:25,720 Speaker 1: was as as the lead producer, was a film in 488 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 1: England called forty four Inch Chest and it was written 489 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:30,600 Speaker 1: by the same guys who are at Sexy Beast, which 490 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:32,200 Speaker 1: I thought. I was a huge fan of that film, 491 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:35,360 Speaker 1: and so I immediately sort of tracked down the rights 492 00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:39,359 Speaker 1: as an option another script by them, and Steve was 493 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:41,720 Speaker 1: my It was the first one made with Steve. It 494 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:44,679 Speaker 1: was my partner and helped me get it going, and 495 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 1: we brought a director onto the project who was a 496 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:49,800 Speaker 1: friend of both mine and Steve's. I called Malcolm Venville, 497 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:53,520 Speaker 1: who was a big commercial director anonymous still is. And um, 498 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:55,400 Speaker 1: you know, Malcolm and I have been friends for quite 499 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:56,880 Speaker 1: some time and we were able to get the money 500 00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:58,879 Speaker 1: and go and make the movie with John Hurt and 501 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:01,000 Speaker 1: Ray Winston and he and mc shane and this Tom 502 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:04,680 Speaker 1: Wilkinson's extraordinary cast, and we were shooting in England. At 503 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:08,040 Speaker 1: some point Malcolm and I were giving interview together just 504 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:11,679 Speaker 1: one of the one of the UK magazines trades, and 505 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:13,639 Speaker 1: the interview has said to Malcolm, so is the reason 506 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,159 Speaker 1: you wanted to make this film with Richard because he 507 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:20,000 Speaker 1: was your friend? Malcolm said absolutely not. I guess well 508 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 1: why then? He said, because he had a red hot 509 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:24,439 Speaker 1: script in his hand and the sort of light one 510 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:25,800 Speaker 1: out of my head where I thought, well, that's it. 511 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:27,639 Speaker 1: That's the whole game. The whole game is just to 512 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:29,480 Speaker 1: have a great material. And have a great material, you 513 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:31,639 Speaker 1: have to go out and find it and fight for it. 514 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:34,800 Speaker 1: And ideally you have to have development money because you 515 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:36,400 Speaker 1: need to have the ability to turn the idea into 516 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:39,399 Speaker 1: a script. And Steve a was understood that Golding and 517 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:42,359 Speaker 1: understood and the necessity of being able to develop an 518 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:45,880 Speaker 1: ass So, speaking of gray material, one last question, will 519 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:50,080 Speaker 1: we see more true? Detective? It's an open question. I 520 00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:53,120 Speaker 1: think it's going to depend on Nick's appetite to continue. 521 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:55,199 Speaker 1: A lot of yea, Nick is a lot of the 522 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:58,560 Speaker 1: writer UM and the executive producer of the show UM. 523 00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:00,560 Speaker 1: And then if he comes up with an idea that 524 00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:03,359 Speaker 1: excites him and excites HBO, that that's what it's going 525 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:04,960 Speaker 1: to comes down too. But I think there's definitely an 526 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:08,199 Speaker 1: appetite HBO to continue if Nick wants to continue and 527 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:12,359 Speaker 1: has an idea. It seemed rare that a series like 528 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:14,720 Speaker 1: that which kind of had a misstep, it felt, in 529 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,639 Speaker 1: the season two, but bounced back in season three. Do 530 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,800 Speaker 1: you feel it's kind of back where it should have 531 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:23,040 Speaker 1: been all along? Yeah? I think so. The misstep was 532 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:25,520 Speaker 1: perhaps to do with changing their methodology, right, So it 533 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:28,439 Speaker 1: went from this season one was very much made in 534 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,400 Speaker 1: a singular way as a sort of TV film hybrid, 535 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:36,719 Speaker 1: and season two was more traditional, more traditional TV model UM, 536 00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:39,560 Speaker 1: and you know, maybe just being honest honestly, I think 537 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:42,280 Speaker 1: the scripts probably weren't as good, and then season three 538 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:45,080 Speaker 1: they were so again great material, right, So the scripts 539 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:48,080 Speaker 1: were great and it led to ultimately the whole every 540 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:50,359 Speaker 1: aspect of it was better because the material was better, 541 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:53,280 Speaker 1: you know, that's the fundamental thing I think. I mean, 542 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:54,919 Speaker 1: if the scripts aren't in on the page, in on 543 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:57,160 Speaker 1: the stage I think is what David Mannett once said, 544 00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:01,239 Speaker 1: and it's probably not wrong. Absolutely well. Looking forward to 545 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:05,200 Speaker 1: whether it's True Detective or other limited series to come, 546 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:08,280 Speaker 1: whether from Anonymous or your new venture. Looking forward to 547 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:10,720 Speaker 1: seeing what you do next. Thanks, thanks for coming in. 548 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:16,639 Speaker 1: This has been another episode of Strictly Business. Tune in 549 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:20,240 Speaker 1: next week for another helping a scintillating conversation with media 550 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:23,240 Speaker 1: movers and shakers, and please make sure you subscribe to 551 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:27,359 Speaker 1: the podcast to hear future episodes. Also leave a review 552 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:32,320 Speaker 1: in Apple Podcast let us know how we're doing. H