1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,600 Speaker 1: February two thousand four, Maura Murray empties her bank account, 2 00:00:03,720 --> 00:00:08,520 Speaker 1: drives four hours from school, crashes her car, and vanishes. 3 00:00:09,080 --> 00:00:12,760 Speaker 1: Joined the search as an investigative reporter, uncovers new evidence, 4 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:17,400 Speaker 1: interrogates new witnesses, traces down new leads in this riveting 5 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:23,480 Speaker 1: new investigative series, The Disappearance of Maura Murray Saturday's seven 6 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:28,040 Speaker 1: sixth Central and nine eight Central on Oxygen, the new 7 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 1: network for crime Climb Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius 8 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:42,080 Speaker 1: XM Triumph Channel one thirty two. He is accused of 9 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 1: having tried to kill Desiree Turner. Prosecutors say she was 10 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 1: the victim of a vicious robbery at the hands of 11 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 1: two teen boys. According to court documents, the teen's planned 12 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 1: to rob and kill her. Des Race story is one 13 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 1: of survival. She was found laying in a ditch with 14 00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 1: a gunshot wounded the head. She works everything to gain 15 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:01,400 Speaker 1: as much quality for as she can, for her life 16 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:03,560 Speaker 1: will never be the same. I am so thankful to 17 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: be here today to alfe this Ray. Turner chose this 18 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 1: shirt to reflect how she felt that she was minutes 19 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:11,560 Speaker 1: away from walking out of a primary children's hospital. This 20 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:13,839 Speaker 1: is happy on it, and I'm happy to go home. 21 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:16,039 Speaker 1: I told me Dad that I am tougher than a bullet. 22 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:22,119 Speaker 1: A fourteen year old little girl thought they liked her. 23 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:27,200 Speaker 1: A fourteen year old little girl. I thought she was 24 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 1: having fun on snapchat with two guys a little bit 25 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:35,680 Speaker 1: older than her, so when they asked her to meet 26 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 1: up with them after school, she thought it was a 27 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:43,360 Speaker 1: great idea. She was reported missing that afternoon after school 28 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:47,560 Speaker 1: when she never came home. She was found shot in 29 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 1: the head, bleeding out and a gully. I mean and see, Grace, 30 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 1: this is crime stories. Thank you for being with us. 31 00:01:56,600 --> 00:02:02,560 Speaker 1: Needless to say, I want justice. I am talking about 32 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:11,679 Speaker 1: a beautiful little girl, Desiree. She's absolutely precious, dark brown hair, 33 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 1: big eyes, and I'm trying to imagine this girl. I 34 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 1: see the pictures of her in life, when she's whole 35 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 1: and healthy, and I'm trying to imagine her face down 36 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:29,120 Speaker 1: in a gully, a dried out ravine full of mud, 37 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:33,280 Speaker 1: shot in the back of the head. And I'm trying 38 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 1: to figure out why reporting now is that the boys 39 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 1: we're sick of her snapchatting them. They were quote annoyed, 40 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:55,520 Speaker 1: in fact, as they planned her murder ahead of time. 41 00:02:56,680 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 1: They texted each other saying things like, let's get this done. 42 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:08,800 Speaker 1: Bro joining me right now. It'sycho analyst from l A Dr. 43 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall, high profile criminal profiler Pat Brown with me 44 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 1: and Crime Stories investigative reporter Bobby Maxwell. Let's take it 45 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: from the top, Bobby, starting at a the beginning of 46 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:28,960 Speaker 1: the story. How did this go down? How did Desiree 47 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 1: end up face down in a muddy ravine? Well, Nancy, 48 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 1: it all started on snapchat. She was expecting to purchase 49 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 1: a knife from Colter Peterson and Jason Decker. Sorry, but 50 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 1: that's not where it started. It started with them snapchatting 51 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 1: and having this relationship. They live in the same small 52 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:50,760 Speaker 1: Utah town. True, the boys are older than her, their 53 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 1: sixteen and seventeen. She just turned fourteen. But they all 54 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:56,440 Speaker 1: knew each other. I mean in a town that's small, 55 00:03:56,560 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 1: like the community where I came from, you know everybody. 56 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 1: These were her friends. So they snapchatted and texted and 57 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:08,240 Speaker 1: all that, and it was just a good old time 58 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:11,680 Speaker 1: until they say, hey, we got a little pocket knife. 59 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 1: We know you want it, Come meet us at this 60 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:16,920 Speaker 1: canal after school. Okay, take it from there, Bobby, I 61 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:20,599 Speaker 1: want to establish these three were friends before the pocket 62 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:23,920 Speaker 1: knife came into the scene. Go ahead, Well, they actually 63 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 1: met on snapchat and and Desiree considered the boys her friends. 64 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:32,760 Speaker 1: They snapchatted a lot and um as many teens too, 65 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:36,160 Speaker 1: and the boys one of them in particular, Coulter Peterson, 66 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:38,479 Speaker 1: said that it got to be a little bit too much. 67 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 1: She was annoying by snapchatting. Now I want to go 68 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:44,120 Speaker 1: out to Pat Brown, criminal profiler. We have got two guys. 69 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 1: We've got Coulter Danny Peterson, seventeen years old. You know, 70 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:52,080 Speaker 1: he's about to graduate from high school. He is a 71 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 1: couple of months shy of being a legal adult. Then 72 00:04:56,160 --> 00:04:59,599 Speaker 1: you have the sixteen year old. The sixteen year old 73 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 1: is to me part and parcel of the whole thing. Now, 74 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:11,839 Speaker 1: that guy Jason Shay, as everybody called in, was in 75 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:16,920 Speaker 1: it just as much as the now eighteen year old. 76 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 1: Tell me about that dynamic. Pat Brown, Well, Nancy, Usually 77 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 1: what we have when we see a duo get involved 78 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 1: in something is we do see a stronger one of 79 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 1: the pair, and I do believe that is Peterson. Uh So, 80 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 1: we have somebody who's really coming up with the idea, 81 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 1: and somebody was willing to go along with it because 82 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:37,800 Speaker 1: it's pretty cool, and then he's gonna be buddies with 83 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:40,840 Speaker 1: them and they're gonna have this exciting time together. Obviously, 84 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:43,680 Speaker 1: either one of them could have said no, either one 85 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:46,479 Speaker 1: of them could have backed out. But the fact that 86 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:48,919 Speaker 1: they actually thought about it for a period of time 87 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:51,920 Speaker 1: and then planned it and then went through with it 88 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 1: pretty much means that you have two willing people. So 89 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:57,200 Speaker 1: I want to go I'm wanna move forward dot to 90 00:05:57,200 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall before I continue with the facts. The the 91 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 1: power play here between a seventeen year old now turning 92 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 1: eighteen year old and a sixteen year old and the 93 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:10,039 Speaker 1: fourteen year old little girl just turned fourteen that seemed 94 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:13,839 Speaker 1: to idolize these two. What's the dynamic there? What's so interesting? 95 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:15,720 Speaker 1: And Pat Brown took the words right out of my 96 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:20,120 Speaker 1: mouth that when boys kill often you see two males 97 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:24,160 Speaker 1: acting in concert and you see a stronger, sometimes older 98 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 1: male who has more sociopathic tendencies that mail than recruits 99 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:32,960 Speaker 1: a weaker mail. And I think the dynamic between the 100 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:36,039 Speaker 1: three of them is that the weaker mail complained to 101 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:40,159 Speaker 1: the stronger male that Desiree was bothering him. Now, knowing 102 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 1: how teenagers talk, I saw right through that too. I 103 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 1: like her, We're we're texting, we're snapchatting, but I don't 104 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:51,279 Speaker 1: want you to know how much I like Desiree. The 105 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:55,280 Speaker 1: older male seizes upon this in a cruel, malicious way 106 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 1: and says, hey, bro, I can take care of her 107 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:01,720 Speaker 1: for you. The weaker mail then says, well to himself, 108 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:04,279 Speaker 1: you know, maybe this is sort of unconscious internal dialogue. 109 00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 1: While I like her, she's cute, but I really want 110 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 1: the admiration, the affection of this older guy. What am 111 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:13,240 Speaker 1: I going to do? And the evil side wins out. 112 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 1: He allows himself to be drawn in and groomed into 113 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 1: becoming a perpetrator, and so slowly, over time, these two 114 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:26,520 Speaker 1: males romanticized the idea of cruelty to the point where 115 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 1: they even contemplate slitting her throat. Nancy. This tells me 116 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:33,920 Speaker 1: that the older male really had all these fantasies of 117 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:37,040 Speaker 1: inflicting cruelty, and this is his m O in the world. 118 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 1: You know, I was wondering if you two were going 119 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:44,120 Speaker 1: to seize on that. The idea, the first mode of 120 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 1: killing the fourteen year old little girl between these two 121 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 1: guys was to slit her throat. Now Dr Bethany, Dr 122 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall joining me psychoanalyst out of l A and 123 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 1: right now criminal profile or Pat Brown Alonge with Bobby Maxwell. 124 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 1: Dr Bethany. When you slit the throat of the victim, 125 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 1: that is an entirely different psychological event than cheating someone 126 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 1: at thirty, completely different scenario. Why absolutely, because there's the 127 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:23,160 Speaker 1: infliction of pain and cruelty. This is not just wanting 128 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 1: to snuff her little life out. This is not wanting 129 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 1: to shoot her in the back of the head so 130 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 1: she does not know what's happening. This is wanting to 131 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 1: look the victim in the eye and her to know 132 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:38,840 Speaker 1: what's happening to her. See So, one of the things 133 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 1: we know about cruelty and sadism with sociopaths um is 134 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 1: that the the infliction of cruelty is very linked with 135 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:54,719 Speaker 1: sexual excitement for boys, aggression, sadism, and suse. But ever 136 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:57,240 Speaker 1: since I've known you, somehow everything has to do with sex. 137 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 1: I hope it seriously cruel people, How can that can 138 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 1: everything be about sex? Okay? Because I don't know that. 139 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:12,560 Speaker 1: It's hard to imagine now, yes it is. It's gone 140 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 1: through for those of us that have full time jobs 141 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 1: in nine year old twins, it's really hard to believe 142 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 1: that everything is about s e X. But go ahead 143 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 1: with your theory, Dr Mathanye, Okay, And it's not just mine. 144 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 1: This is really based on extensive research, and there's a psychoanalysts, 145 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 1: psychiatrists read Malloy out of San Diego, who writes really 146 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 1: beautifully about this, that with sociopathy there's a lot of 147 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 1: inner deadness, there's woredom that that that's okay, wait a minute, 148 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:45,560 Speaker 1: wait a minute. Okay, I'm just a trial lawyer, okay, 149 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:50,559 Speaker 1: sling around words like sycopathy and say no maxis m 150 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:54,400 Speaker 1: blah blah blah. You gotta break it down for us. Okay, now, 151 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:58,680 Speaker 1: so what did you just say? It's speaking regular people 152 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:04,680 Speaker 1: talk the sociopath. It's a spectrum disorder with narcissism. The 153 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:09,800 Speaker 1: sociopath is a more intense, severe version of the narcissist, 154 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:15,520 Speaker 1: the essential feature of which they cannot attach empathically with 155 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:19,840 Speaker 1: people around them, and they cannot feel happy and stimulated 156 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:23,439 Speaker 1: in life. They can't feel joyful simply from their own thoughts, 157 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:26,680 Speaker 1: their own creativity, their own feelings, or if you hurt 158 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:30,440 Speaker 1: somebody feelings, you might obsess on it. Sometimes I'll say 159 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:33,560 Speaker 1: something to a patient or to a friend and afterwards 160 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 1: all saying, oh, did that hurt their feelings? Maybe maybe 161 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 1: they thought I was critical of them. We human beings 162 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 1: care about others and we have a great emotional life 163 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:47,400 Speaker 1: that dictates that we care. But the sociopath has no 164 00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 1: emotional life. They are completely empty, they are completely dead. 165 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 1: That's why part of the description of the disorder we 166 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 1: read this in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental 167 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 1: Disorders is the they have a proneness to boredom. And 168 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 1: that's why we have a saying and Pat Brown, I'm 169 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:08,000 Speaker 1: sure has heard about this a lot, thrill kill. It's 170 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:10,720 Speaker 1: when the m O, the modus upper on die behind 171 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:15,079 Speaker 1: the killing, is to have thrill seeking behavior. So if 172 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 1: we go back, they'll just have to excuse me because 173 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:21,400 Speaker 1: we're having a pow wow. Here. I've got Pat Brown, 174 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 1: Bobby Maxwell, and Bethany Marshall, and I could listen to 175 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:28,319 Speaker 1: each one of them all day. Pat Brown, I think 176 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:31,640 Speaker 1: I get what Bethany, Dr Bethany psycho well less out 177 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 1: of l A is saying, Pat Brown. And she says 178 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:37,079 Speaker 1: thrill kill. When I think about this fourteen year old 179 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 1: little girl. I wonder I think maybe she had a 180 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:43,640 Speaker 1: crush on these guys and was like totally thrilled that 181 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:46,600 Speaker 1: they would have anything to do with her at all. 182 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 1: And to think that she could be an object of 183 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 1: a thrill kill? What is that, Pat Brown, you're the 184 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:54,840 Speaker 1: criminal profiler. Well, well, let's take a look at regular 185 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 1: life and then then we can move it on to sociopaths. 186 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 1: What i'd call psychopaths. Uh at Bethany's right at the 187 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 1: the it's kind of a continuum. So take a look 188 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 1: at any imbalance of power. For example, a recent stuff 189 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 1: we're hearing from Hollywood. Right, So, so you get a producer, 190 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:14,599 Speaker 1: a television producer. He's got the power. And then you 191 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 1: get the young ingenus and she goes to Hollywood and 192 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:21,360 Speaker 1: she is just absolutely thrilled, isn't she. She's so excited. 193 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:23,959 Speaker 1: She's young, she's not. She sees this big guy, Oh 194 00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 1: my god, he represents the movies. I can be in 195 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:28,880 Speaker 1: the movies. She has such putty in his hands. And 196 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:32,640 Speaker 1: he gets his thrill out of being able to control 197 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 1: and manipulate and have power over her. And so the 198 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:38,480 Speaker 1: two of them come together and each one of them 199 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:41,480 Speaker 1: gets their thrill in their own way, and unfortunately the 200 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 1: man with the power, he has more of the control. 201 00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 1: So now we move on to this particular incident, we 202 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:50,760 Speaker 1: have a similar situation, except with no extreme psychopath. Of 203 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 1: course we don't know. Some of the Hollywood guys are 204 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:56,800 Speaker 1: pretty psychopathic themselves, but perhaps not violent, but very psychopathic. 205 00:12:57,080 --> 00:13:00,160 Speaker 1: But here we have this Peterson and his buddy and 206 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:02,360 Speaker 1: this young girl. And and of course you remember Bacter 207 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:05,679 Speaker 1: being fourteen years old. How giddy you are when you're fourteen. 208 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:08,320 Speaker 1: You know, everything is so exciting, you know everything new, 209 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:11,080 Speaker 1: especially guy and the other thing. Pat Brown at fourteen, 210 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 1: you would never think, Wow, maybe I shouldn't go meet 211 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:17,400 Speaker 1: two guys alone and a deserted canal space. But you 212 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 1: know what that is not? They don't. They don't say 213 00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 1: behind the school. They meet at their friends houses. Most 214 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:25,720 Speaker 1: of the time they come home. You know, they're just 215 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:28,760 Speaker 1: having fun with what they considered guys that are just 216 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 1: a little bit older. Pat, even I at my age, 217 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:34,839 Speaker 1: I will say, be out of town traveling for work, 218 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 1: and I go, okay, I'm gonna go jogging now, and 219 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:41,679 Speaker 1: I'll joggle end up completely alone summer totally unfamiliar. I'm like, oh, 220 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:43,880 Speaker 1: I'll just go ten more minutes before I turn out, 221 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:48,040 Speaker 1: and I think, what the hey am I thinking? Hey, guys, 222 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 1: holding on one moment, I want to pause very quickly 223 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:53,800 Speaker 1: and thank our sponsor, our partner who is making our 224 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:58,000 Speaker 1: program today possible. As we look for motive and understanding 225 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:01,199 Speaker 1: and the shooting of this fot in your old little girl, 226 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:07,679 Speaker 1: it's legal Zoom. 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Be sure to intercode Nancy in 240 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 1: the referral box at checkout legal zoom dot com and 241 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:15,640 Speaker 1: live back to Utah, where now we learn that one 242 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:19,080 Speaker 1: of the young men they soon to be eighteen year old, 243 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 1: admits shooting a fourteen year old girl in the back 244 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 1: of the head quote because she was annoying him on Snapchat. 245 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:32,120 Speaker 1: And Bobby Maxwell is joining me Crime Stories investigative reporter 246 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:35,160 Speaker 1: along with profile or Pat Brown and Dr Bethany Marshall, 247 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:39,600 Speaker 1: psychoanalyst out of l A. Bobby Maxwell, this was a 248 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 1: very well planned shooting of the fourteen year old girl, 249 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 1: Desiree Turner. They planned this far in advance. What facts 250 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 1: lead you to believe that, Mobby, Well, they actually had. 251 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 1: They were playing games, video games when they were making 252 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 1: the decision. Um one said they were annoyed with Desiree 253 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:02,200 Speaker 1: and and um uh Jason said, well, we can easily 254 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 1: get rid of her. Um. So it took several days 255 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:07,040 Speaker 1: that first I wanted to do it with the slashing 256 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:10,400 Speaker 1: of the throat, and um they thought actually shooting her 257 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 1: would be um less noise or less distraction. So they 258 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:17,720 Speaker 1: they actually went through those different steps. So you're right, 259 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 1: it wasn't just like an instant thought. They calculated and 260 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:23,760 Speaker 1: planned this all out. Not only that they actually go 261 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:27,040 Speaker 1: to one of their older brother's room and steal a 262 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:32,800 Speaker 1: twenty two caliber gun out from under his mattress. Uh, 263 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 1: you know, Pat Brown criminal profile or with us, that 264 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 1: is cold and calculated. And not only that, after they 265 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:43,040 Speaker 1: shoot her and leave her to bleed out, a fourteen 266 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:47,160 Speaker 1: year old little girl just turned they steal her iPhone, 267 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:49,880 Speaker 1: they steal her devices, They still her backpack, and I 268 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:52,120 Speaker 1: think she had fifty five dollars on her. They steal 269 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 1: all of that, taking what they want out of it, 270 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 1: and discarding some of it in a dumpster. I mean, 271 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:02,360 Speaker 1: that is incredibly telling. I would have asked. One official 272 00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 1: said the motivation was greed. Well, you know, I don't 273 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:08,600 Speaker 1: know that I buy that particular motivation at all. I mean, 274 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:11,880 Speaker 1: first of all, we cannot believe anything that Peterson says. 275 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 1: Let's let's look at this ridiculous Snapchat claim. Oh she 276 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 1: bought she was bothering us on Snapchat, so that's why 277 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 1: we killed her. Okay, this is called blaming the victim. 278 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:24,080 Speaker 1: You know Snapchat, you can just block somebody, you know, 279 00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 1: So first of all, the could have done that. Uh. 280 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:29,159 Speaker 1: And Secondly, even if she was annoying on Snapchat, of 281 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 1: course this isn't really a reason to kill somebody. So 282 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:33,919 Speaker 1: I don't believe that for a minute. You know what, 283 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 1: when I don't like somebody's emails or texts, don't ever answer. 284 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:40,120 Speaker 1: I don't even read them. I just keep going. I've 285 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:42,639 Speaker 1: got about three thousand unran right now my iPhone. F 286 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:47,480 Speaker 1: y I. So, you know, kill her, sheet her in 287 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:51,359 Speaker 1: the head, Dr Bethany Marshall, because they are quote annoyed, 288 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:54,480 Speaker 1: that's their word, not mine, and leave her to die, 289 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:59,840 Speaker 1: and Dr Bethany to steal her stuff, to steal her backpacks, 290 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:02,560 Speaker 1: to her iPod, steal her money, a little bit of 291 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:05,160 Speaker 1: money she had on her, and then take what they 292 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 1: want out of her backpack and throw her stuff in 293 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:09,960 Speaker 1: a dumpster. What does that say to you? But that 294 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:13,000 Speaker 1: helped me. They wanted to degrade and to humiliate her. 295 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 1: Um when they say she was bothering me, Not only 296 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:21,560 Speaker 1: is it minimizing the crime, minimizing their heinous actions and 297 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 1: as Pat said, blaming the victim, but they're trying to 298 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:27,400 Speaker 1: imply that she was coming after them in some way, 299 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:30,640 Speaker 1: that she wanted them, and so in that way, they're 300 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 1: trying to humiliate and disgrace her, the idea of just 301 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:38,480 Speaker 1: taking her iPhone, and it's as if she's their toy, 302 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 1: their object um, she's bending to their will. They can 303 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:44,960 Speaker 1: do whatever they want with her and Nancy. At the 304 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:47,800 Speaker 1: beginning of the show, you talked about her lying face 305 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:50,439 Speaker 1: down in the gully and trying to imagine what that 306 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:53,320 Speaker 1: was like. They walked away from a fourteen year old 307 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:58,640 Speaker 1: lying face down in the dirt, bleeding out. This shows 308 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:02,160 Speaker 1: utter attempt for the victim, and the fact that they 309 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:05,879 Speaker 1: planned and schemed while they were playing video games tells 310 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:07,720 Speaker 1: me that this was a joke to them. This was 311 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:12,480 Speaker 1: a game. They enjoyed this. How does it get to 312 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:17,879 Speaker 1: be that life means nothing? I mean, how does a 313 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 1: seventeen year old and a sixteen year old. They've gone 314 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:25,440 Speaker 1: through regular school, they had a nice school um, they 315 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 1: had home, they had a family that took care of them. 316 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:31,760 Speaker 1: It reminds me a little bit of the Columbine shooter 317 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:36,600 Speaker 1: because it was a middle class, upper middle class area. 318 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:42,119 Speaker 1: They wanted for nothing and life meant nothing. It was 319 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:44,560 Speaker 1: like a video game to them. I hadn't thought of 320 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:49,440 Speaker 1: it that way. To shoot this girl over snapchatting Bethany, 321 00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:51,480 Speaker 1: and I keep thinking, um, when you say it was 322 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:55,240 Speaker 1: a game to them, Um, we think about the Menendez brothers, 323 00:19:55,359 --> 00:20:00,639 Speaker 1: Columbine DC Sniper again, all these cases where men act 324 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:04,639 Speaker 1: in concert, where an older, stronger male recruits a younger male. 325 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:09,359 Speaker 1: What we do see is total in consideration towards life. 326 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:13,199 Speaker 1: It says, it's as if people do not exist in 327 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 1: the excitement of just picking people off is the m O. 328 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:19,920 Speaker 1: And you know, one one thing that all these crimes 329 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:23,119 Speaker 1: have in common is the humiliation of the victim. I 330 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:27,120 Speaker 1: mean the victims. I'll never forget, um, Jose and Kitty Menendez, 331 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 1: how the Menendez boys said that the father molested them. 332 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:34,399 Speaker 1: I mean, they basically made the worst accusation they could 333 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:37,919 Speaker 1: towards their father to cover up their own heinous crime. 334 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:41,520 Speaker 1: And now, in their own like pickie Uni, small town, 335 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:45,760 Speaker 1: small minded kind of way, these two boys are saying, well, 336 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:49,840 Speaker 1: Desiree bothered us. It's always the victim's fault, and they 337 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 1: always they always claim that the victim wanted them, not 338 00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:56,919 Speaker 1: the other way around. Well, Desiree was texting us, she 339 00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:00,440 Speaker 1: was snapchatting us, she was bothering us. When you full 340 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 1: well they were obsessed with her. It was the other 341 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:07,399 Speaker 1: way around, you know. Speaking of what happened to the girl, 342 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 1: twenty two caliber weapon was stolen from one of their 343 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 1: older brothers out from under his mattress. If he knew 344 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:18,439 Speaker 1: about it, if he gave it to them, he's in 345 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:22,159 Speaker 1: trouble too. But the fact that he stole it from 346 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:25,119 Speaker 1: under their match under the brothers mattress indicates to me, 347 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:27,439 Speaker 1: if that's true, that the brother did not know about it. 348 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:36,719 Speaker 1: The bullet was lodged in little Desires brain with several 349 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:41,800 Speaker 1: other fragments still in her head when she was found. 350 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:49,439 Speaker 1: And another creepy fact that just makes my blood boil 351 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:55,760 Speaker 1: is that the second one. Um, there's Coulter Peterson and 352 00:21:55,840 --> 00:22:00,920 Speaker 1: then there is the other one. Jason Decker. Decker wanted 353 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:05,639 Speaker 1: to ask. He asked if he could keep the bullet 354 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 1: casing as a memento Bethany, and the bullet casing was 355 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:15,720 Speaker 1: found actually found on his window sill. I mean in 356 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:21,440 Speaker 1: my children's room. They have their soccer uh trophies, They 357 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:25,840 Speaker 1: have little mementos about Harry Potter and Disney. They have 358 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:31,760 Speaker 1: their wands of course photos from school, um class photos, 359 00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 1: That's what they have on their shelves. This guy has 360 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:38,520 Speaker 1: a bullet casing. Bethany helped me. We know, when I've 361 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:41,639 Speaker 1: read that, the fact that he kept the bullet casing 362 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:45,879 Speaker 1: as a memento, I thought about what we know about 363 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:48,959 Speaker 1: serial killers that often they keep a trophy. You know, 364 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:51,919 Speaker 1: there's a lock of hair, there's an item of clothing, 365 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:55,639 Speaker 1: there's a photograph. Well remember with the BTK killer he had, 366 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 1: he had made that tape, He had all these mementos 367 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 1: of clothing, and it made me wonder if these two 368 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 1: boys had not been caught, if they were on their 369 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:07,879 Speaker 1: way to becoming serial killers. I know that sounds dramatic, 370 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 1: but this is often how it starts. It's the person 371 00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:13,679 Speaker 1: you don't suspect. It's the person from the good upbringing, 372 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:17,119 Speaker 1: the person who wears what we call the mask of sanity. 373 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 1: They look normal on the surface, but you peep beneath 374 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:24,240 Speaker 1: the surface and there's all these a barren, deviant, bizarre 375 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:27,960 Speaker 1: behavioral patterns like keeping the shell casing, and you begin 376 00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:30,879 Speaker 1: to think, what would the trajectory have been if this 377 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:34,960 Speaker 1: person had not been caught, What other mementos, what other victims? 378 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:39,280 Speaker 1: Because he seemed to take such great pride in this crime, 379 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:42,000 Speaker 1: you know, Alan, do you that is? Hold on? I've 380 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:44,480 Speaker 1: got to be bring Pat Brown in on this. But Alan, 381 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:47,200 Speaker 1: before I get Pat Brown in on keeping the twenty 382 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:52,040 Speaker 1: two shell casing, That's exactly how Tara grins dad's killer 383 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:55,879 Speaker 1: went under the radar for so long. We're talking about 384 00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:59,920 Speaker 1: the hometown and beauty queen and Oscilla that was kid 385 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 1: napped and murdered years ago. Her body has never been found. 386 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:06,600 Speaker 1: I'll never forget the chill that went down my spine 387 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:10,080 Speaker 1: when I went through her home with her mother. The 388 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:14,080 Speaker 1: guy that killed her was one of her students, high 389 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:18,200 Speaker 1: school students years before she went missing, and stayed under 390 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:21,320 Speaker 1: the radar, and nobody suspected him. And what Dr Bethany's 391 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:23,760 Speaker 1: saying is if these two had not been apprehended, what 392 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:27,360 Speaker 1: would be next? Alan? What about Tara Grinstead? The suspects 393 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:29,960 Speaker 1: in the Tara Grinstead killing stayed under the radar for 394 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:33,040 Speaker 1: about a dozen years while some other people probably knew 395 00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 1: about it. These guys just um just went undetected. And 396 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:39,520 Speaker 1: it is the could have the same thing could have 397 00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 1: happened with with these young men well, and also in 398 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 1: Tara Grinstead, Alan, they were willing to let somebody else 399 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:49,560 Speaker 1: i A the boyfriend or the principle or whoever take 400 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:52,359 Speaker 1: the fall for a tar is kidnap and murder. That 401 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 1: was fine with them as they sat back and had 402 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:56,680 Speaker 1: a beer on the sofa. You know, they didn't care. 403 00:24:56,840 --> 00:25:00,280 Speaker 1: Somebody else could have definitely gone down for murder, but 404 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,520 Speaker 1: that did not bother them. So, Pat Brown, you are 405 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:08,480 Speaker 1: the world renowned criminal profiler, and that's a fact. Pat. 406 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:11,440 Speaker 1: What do you make of these two and the one 407 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:16,000 Speaker 1: asking to keep the bullet casing after the bullet goes 408 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:18,960 Speaker 1: into this little girl's brain, Well, you can see how 409 00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:23,000 Speaker 1: how this has been like the most exciting, amazing thing 410 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:25,359 Speaker 1: he's ever done in his life. And that is the 411 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:28,679 Speaker 1: problem with serial killers and why we uh tend to 412 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:32,360 Speaker 1: not understand that when you cross a line like this, 413 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:35,800 Speaker 1: there's no going back. And I've always I've argued against 414 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:40,040 Speaker 1: the FBI's original uh statement where their definition a serial 415 00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:42,480 Speaker 1: killer is a person who has committed three kills with 416 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 1: downtime in between. So they did not actually label uh 417 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,320 Speaker 1: somebody a serial killer until they've done that or or 418 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:51,320 Speaker 1: or if they found us, say a woman who'd been 419 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:53,400 Speaker 1: raped and murdered and thrown in the bushes, they go, oh, 420 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 1: we don't know if it's just a one off killing. 421 00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 1: And I would think to myself, wait a minute, who 422 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 1: does this. Who steps over the line to you know, 423 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:02,240 Speaker 1: to grab a girl off the street and rape and 424 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:05,320 Speaker 1: murder her, except a serial killer. So you have someone 425 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,000 Speaker 1: if they did it one time and loved it that much, 426 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:11,040 Speaker 1: they're going to do it again if they have the opportunity. 427 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:13,800 Speaker 1: So I'm all good, I'm okay with one pretty much. 428 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:16,359 Speaker 1: Will tell us where it's going. So the problem is 429 00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:18,200 Speaker 1: catching them before they do it two or three or 430 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:21,080 Speaker 1: four or maybe thirty more times. So we have these 431 00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:23,600 Speaker 1: two young men. This is not normal, I mean because 432 00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:26,920 Speaker 1: people say, well, maybe they had some problems. Problems, Uh yeah, 433 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:29,680 Speaker 1: some people have problems. They might go into the room 434 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:31,679 Speaker 1: and slam their door. They may yell at their parents, 435 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:35,320 Speaker 1: they may not want to do their homework. But to decide, well, 436 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 1: let's let's kill somebody. Hey, let's kill this girl. We know, 437 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:40,640 Speaker 1: let's think about it, let's plan it, let's go do it. 438 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:44,119 Speaker 1: When you're like that, you're a psychopathic and you're already 439 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:46,720 Speaker 1: you've crossed that line and you are extreme danger to 440 00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:49,440 Speaker 1: the community. Should never be out in the community again, 441 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:53,080 Speaker 1: you know, Pat Brown you were talking about, you do 442 00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:54,439 Speaker 1: it once, you get away with it, and you do 443 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 1: it again. I've got a comparison. I remember the first 444 00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:00,359 Speaker 1: time I was in front of a jury and I 445 00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:05,760 Speaker 1: had to tell them an opening statement what the defendant said, 446 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:10,040 Speaker 1: what the defendant had stated to police. And it was 447 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:15,840 Speaker 1: full of curse words, every slur on women, every curse 448 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 1: word you can think of. They said the P word, 449 00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:22,879 Speaker 1: the F word, the C word, the S word, everything. 450 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:27,800 Speaker 1: And I remember the moment, and I'm kind of feeling 451 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:30,560 Speaker 1: it right now that I stood in front the jury 452 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:33,639 Speaker 1: and I told them that, and they were shocked, and 453 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 1: it felt it tasted bad coming out of my mouth. 454 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 1: I had never said those words before. Guess what, pat 455 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:41,440 Speaker 1: the next time I had to do it. By the 456 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:43,200 Speaker 1: end of that trial, it was just coming right out, 457 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:46,720 Speaker 1: rapid fire. It didn't bother me anymore. And I saw 458 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:51,000 Speaker 1: that happening. It happened to me, and I had never 459 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 1: cursed before that, And then suddenly got really easy to do. 460 00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 1: Now once the twins were born, they're about turned ten, 461 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,840 Speaker 1: I said, that's it with the mouth, because I don't 462 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:04,399 Speaker 1: want to hear that from my children. I don't have 463 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:06,560 Speaker 1: a leg to stand on if I say it and 464 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:08,320 Speaker 1: then I can't fuss it them for doing it, and 465 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 1: it's it's not it's not becoming. So that's just a tiny, silly, 466 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:19,280 Speaker 1: little exampleing once you do something, it's easier to do 467 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:20,960 Speaker 1: it the next time. Then the next time, next thing, 468 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:24,000 Speaker 1: you don't even think about it anymore, especially if the results, 469 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 1: you know the results when you cross the line, and 470 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:30,120 Speaker 1: the results make you happy. In the case of a psychopathy, 471 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:32,480 Speaker 1: when they crossed the line to be able to manipulate somebody, 472 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 1: to get power over somebody, to abuse somebody, to come 473 00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:38,160 Speaker 1: out the winner. Because that's what it's really about. Psychopaths 474 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:40,680 Speaker 1: always feel that they didn't win enough when they were little, 475 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 1: you know, they couldn't get over on people, they couldn't 476 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:45,160 Speaker 1: get the responses they wanted. They didn't come out to 477 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:48,000 Speaker 1: be the superhero. So this is their way of having 478 00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 1: that moment in the sun, the same thing we see 479 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:52,000 Speaker 1: with with the mass murderers. That's their moment in the sun. 480 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:57,840 Speaker 1: Why keep mementos and we've seen I've seen serial killers 481 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 1: that keep for instance, the victims underwear. Everybody keeps mementos, 482 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:03,920 Speaker 1: don't If people get married, don't they keep the piece 483 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:05,959 Speaker 1: of that wedding cake and the flour and all that stuff. 484 00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:08,040 Speaker 1: Don't you go on a trip and bring back on 485 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:10,680 Speaker 1: garbage from from some other country and you know, stick 486 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 1: it on your stick it on your wall, you know, 487 00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:15,800 Speaker 1: your or your little ashtray that says, you know, Santa Fe, 488 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:19,160 Speaker 1: New Mexico or whatever. People always want mementos of their 489 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:22,080 Speaker 1: life because those are the special moments and their special moments. 490 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:24,120 Speaker 1: You know, we don't get momentos for no reason. They're 491 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:27,040 Speaker 1: the special tokens that when we look at back at them, 492 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:29,040 Speaker 1: you know, one walks to their house and they can 493 00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:32,400 Speaker 1: see those those things that were saved from that special day. 494 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:34,400 Speaker 1: It gives us an extra moment of pleasure to be 495 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:38,080 Speaker 1: able to relive that wonderful moment. So for a serial killer, 496 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:42,040 Speaker 1: no keeping something where you can go, yeah, I remember 497 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:44,560 Speaker 1: when I killed that girl. It was great. You know, 498 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:47,600 Speaker 1: that is their big, huge achievement and it will give 499 00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:50,920 Speaker 1: them that thrill over and over. Guys, I know that 500 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:56,040 Speaker 1: hearing much of this, it's hard sometimes, but the only 501 00:29:56,080 --> 00:30:01,200 Speaker 1: way to fight crime and to fight injustice is to 502 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:05,120 Speaker 1: tackle it head on, and that's what we are doing today. 503 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:12,320 Speaker 1: On Crime Stories, desires father says that his daughter right now, 504 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:19,240 Speaker 1: should be practicing her karate. She should be riding her horse. There. 505 00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:23,920 Speaker 1: We're from a very small town in northern Utah, out 506 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 1: in the country, beautiful countryside. She should be living like 507 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:32,280 Speaker 1: every other farm girl in this country. Instead, she was 508 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:35,520 Speaker 1: shot in the back of the head and left to 509 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 1: bleed out and die by two callous teens approaching adulthood. 510 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:47,280 Speaker 1: Take a listen to this. I am so thankful to 511 00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:49,920 Speaker 1: be here today, to the l A. I want to 512 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:53,360 Speaker 1: say thank you to all the doctors, nursis, techs, and 513 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:57,480 Speaker 1: therapists and stuff who have tea took such good care 514 00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:01,200 Speaker 1: of you and helped me get this far. Y. I 515 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:03,520 Speaker 1: also want to thank all of the people who have 516 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:06,680 Speaker 1: helped take care of my family, especially my mom and 517 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:10,520 Speaker 1: my dad. While I have been in the hospital, I 518 00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:13,200 Speaker 1: have been working really hard and still have a lot 519 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:15,200 Speaker 1: of work to do. I told my dad that I 520 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:18,240 Speaker 1: am tougher than a bullet. It is still with me today, 521 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:25,280 Speaker 1: but I am here and I get to go home today. 522 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:30,320 Speaker 1: People all over the world have been praying for me, 523 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:32,600 Speaker 1: some of them I note, and some I have never met, 524 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:39,560 Speaker 1: and they have never met me, but they cared for me, 525 00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 1: and they care for you. I would like others to 526 00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:45,480 Speaker 1: note that people are kind and they do care about 527 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:48,600 Speaker 1: us and are concerned about us, even when we may 528 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:51,600 Speaker 1: think no one is there. I will always be grateful, 529 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:55,960 Speaker 1: grateful for the kindness that has been shown to me 530 00:31:56,560 --> 00:32:01,200 Speaker 1: and my family. Thank you, Desiree. The little fourteen year 531 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:07,040 Speaker 1: old girl was put into a medically induced coma. It 532 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:10,640 Speaker 1: was too dangerous to remove the bullet from her brain 533 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:15,240 Speaker 1: or the fragments of bullet around it, so she will 534 00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:17,640 Speaker 1: live for life the rest of her life with that 535 00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:21,560 Speaker 1: in her head. If you were to see her right now, 536 00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:25,960 Speaker 1: she is either in a wheelchair or walks with a cane. 537 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:31,240 Speaker 1: Her father broke down as he described her a riding 538 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:36,480 Speaker 1: horseback trying to practice her karate. What her life would 539 00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:40,320 Speaker 1: have been now, he says through his tears. And he 540 00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:48,160 Speaker 1: actually apologized for breaking down crying, which was so poignant 541 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:55,640 Speaker 1: to me that desires father apologized for crying, and he said, 542 00:32:56,120 --> 00:33:01,280 Speaker 1: it's all about trying to give her quality of life now, 543 00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:07,760 Speaker 1: that's all it's about. Instead of horseback and karate, she's 544 00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:11,720 Speaker 1: just trying to learn to move her fingers right now. 545 00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:18,120 Speaker 1: To Dr Bethany, I remember and you lived through this 546 00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:23,160 Speaker 1: with me Bethany, when John David, my baby boy, one 547 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:27,440 Speaker 1: of my twins, had a horrible head injury, and we 548 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,000 Speaker 1: were in and out of doctors, in and out of 549 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:33,520 Speaker 1: the hospital. I would sleep with him in the hospital bed, 550 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:37,840 Speaker 1: and I wondered what was going to happen and how 551 00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:43,160 Speaker 1: could I help him? How could I help John David 552 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:50,000 Speaker 1: have a normal life. While I was blessed, he was blessed. 553 00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:53,920 Speaker 1: He's perfectly fine now, But I remember those nights in 554 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:57,200 Speaker 1: the hospital, laying awake, hearing the next shift of nurses 555 00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:00,360 Speaker 1: come on, wondering about what would happen with John David, 556 00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:04,440 Speaker 1: what would happen after I was gone, Who would take 557 00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:07,920 Speaker 1: care of him, what would become of him? I can 558 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:11,560 Speaker 1: imagine that's what's going through desires mom and Dad's head 559 00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:16,239 Speaker 1: right now. Bethany, Well, Nancy, you are preparing for him 560 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 1: to have a major disability, to be a special needs child. 561 00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:26,719 Speaker 1: Such a horrifying thought. And thank God, he's perfect. But Desiree, 562 00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:30,080 Speaker 1: as you just said, she's struggling to move her fingers, 563 00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:33,640 Speaker 1: she's struggling to be able to walk. Just getting through 564 00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:37,279 Speaker 1: the day is a major effort for her. So she 565 00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:40,520 Speaker 1: has a major trauma from this incident. Not only is 566 00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:44,800 Speaker 1: she traumatized, but now her story is exposed to the nation, 567 00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:48,080 Speaker 1: which is good for victims everywhere. But she has to 568 00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:53,280 Speaker 1: deal with social humiliation, um, social exposure, and the trauma 569 00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:57,240 Speaker 1: is not just for desiree, it's for her entire family 570 00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:00,520 Speaker 1: and not just worrying about what happened. But if you 571 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:04,319 Speaker 1: so beautifully suggested through your experience with John David, now 572 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:08,040 Speaker 1: they have to worry about her future, her financial survival, 573 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:13,400 Speaker 1: her psychological survival, her physical survival. You know, Pat Brown, 574 00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:19,960 Speaker 1: criminal profiler with me. I wonder if ever purps do 575 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:24,440 Speaker 1: things like this. I wonder if it ever dawns on them, 576 00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:30,080 Speaker 1: the wake of pain they leave behind. No, No, no, 577 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:33,839 Speaker 1: absolutely not. You know. That's the whole thing, is that 578 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:38,280 Speaker 1: for a psychopath who commited for horrific crime to injure 579 00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:41,239 Speaker 1: or kill someone, the simple fact that they could do 580 00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:43,880 Speaker 1: it in the first place means they don't have any 581 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:47,799 Speaker 1: concern for that person's feelings, for their families feelings. I 582 00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:50,560 Speaker 1: always remember the serial killer, Um, I'm gonna blank on 583 00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:53,800 Speaker 1: his name now, but he was asked by a because 584 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:56,400 Speaker 1: that's by the detectives, if he would tell the family 585 00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:59,080 Speaker 1: that the parents where their children were buried because they 586 00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:02,880 Speaker 1: hadn't discovered some of the bodies. And he said, you know, 587 00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:05,799 Speaker 1: taking get the parents of ease of mind, and he's 588 00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:08,080 Speaker 1: the serial killer. Look at the detectives. And he said, 589 00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:10,359 Speaker 1: if I'd cared about that, if I cared about the parents, 590 00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:14,640 Speaker 1: I wouldn't have killed their children. Too shy exactly. So 591 00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:18,719 Speaker 1: that kind of a person, it just doesn't care at all. 592 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:20,720 Speaker 1: And what really it offends me right at the moment 593 00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:24,520 Speaker 1: is that Peterson's lawyer right now is whining that they're 594 00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:29,719 Speaker 1: his his lovely boy, who committed this horrific crime. He's 595 00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:33,000 Speaker 1: doing really well, supposedly and whatever wherever he's at right now, 596 00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:34,879 Speaker 1: doing some studying and all that he thing he's going, 597 00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:38,640 Speaker 1: he's doing well well, with his life's improving. Do you think, really, 598 00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:42,080 Speaker 1: you know, do we care that he this this said 599 00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:44,200 Speaker 1: is essentially a killer. He does. He botched it, but 600 00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:48,320 Speaker 1: he was essentially a killer. That this killer is getting better, 601 00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:51,680 Speaker 1: his life is getting better, when this poor girl is 602 00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:53,239 Speaker 1: going to struggle all of her life with the with 603 00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:55,120 Speaker 1: the with the damage said he did to her. I mean, 604 00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:56,520 Speaker 1: it just makes it makes me ill. I kind of 605 00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:59,880 Speaker 1: wondered then when the lawyer said that with the the 606 00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:03,200 Speaker 1: the sing either I'm just listening to you. And I 607 00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:08,799 Speaker 1: remember so many times, Bethany, sitting in court, especially in 608 00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:15,560 Speaker 1: murder cases or um child abuse, rape cases, I would 609 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:17,440 Speaker 1: sit I would never do it so the jury could 610 00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:20,440 Speaker 1: see me do it, but I would look at the 611 00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:27,799 Speaker 1: defendant and just wonder do they have any idea what 612 00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:30,840 Speaker 1: they've done? Because so many people, for the rest of 613 00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:35,719 Speaker 1: their lives are going to be flailing, Like jump off 614 00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:37,000 Speaker 1: a cruise ship and you're out in the middle of 615 00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:40,239 Speaker 1: the ocean. You're flailing as giant waves rush over you, 616 00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:44,800 Speaker 1: flailing to just get through it. And I think, Bethany, 617 00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:48,080 Speaker 1: and again, you've lived through this with me the years 618 00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:54,000 Speaker 1: after my fiance's murder, just flailing, trying, trying to hold on, 619 00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:57,040 Speaker 1: sometimes just one more day, trying to get through it. 620 00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:01,319 Speaker 1: That's that's what's happening here. And you know, Nancy, I 621 00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:03,719 Speaker 1: want to talk about an aspect of the flailing you 622 00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:06,160 Speaker 1: you described it so beautifully, like being dropped in the 623 00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:11,000 Speaker 1: middle of the ocean. When somebody experiences trauma like you did, 624 00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:15,879 Speaker 1: like this family, has anything in the present that remotely 625 00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:20,399 Speaker 1: reminds them of the original trauma will put them right 626 00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:23,880 Speaker 1: back into a flashback, as if it's happening again. Like 627 00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:27,279 Speaker 1: I imagine if John Paul even bumps his head or 628 00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:31,080 Speaker 1: falls down, you think he's injured as he was in 629 00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:34,040 Speaker 1: the original injury, or when you read about these crimes, 630 00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:38,600 Speaker 1: it's as if you're a star. He got it in 631 00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:42,839 Speaker 1: his head he wanted to do lacrosse. Okay, I thought 632 00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:46,200 Speaker 1: I had scared him away from football. But some kid 633 00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:48,520 Speaker 1: as a start across. I'm like, when I agree if 634 00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:53,040 Speaker 1: I didn't even know what lacrosse was. Okay, anyway, so 635 00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:56,320 Speaker 1: you know, I go to Dicks. I want to be normal. 636 00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:00,120 Speaker 1: I get him all and I'm buying this path in 637 00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:02,759 Speaker 1: that pad and this pad and something for the mouth 638 00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:05,040 Speaker 1: and something for the head. And then I stand on 639 00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:10,920 Speaker 1: the sidelines watching him. I mean, he kicked but on 640 00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:13,760 Speaker 1: the lacrosse field. But you know when he came off, 641 00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:15,919 Speaker 1: and I was sitting there trying not to break into 642 00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:19,239 Speaker 1: tears because I mean, I knew you not see this, 643 00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:21,680 Speaker 1: just like two or three years after the head injury, 644 00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:25,040 Speaker 1: and he came out of the field at the end 645 00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:27,839 Speaker 1: and he done really well. He said, Mom, you know what, 646 00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:29,360 Speaker 1: I want to play a sport where you don't have 647 00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:31,920 Speaker 1: to wear all the stuff. I don't like it, and 648 00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:34,000 Speaker 1: I turned around. I looked at this guy said, thank 649 00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:37,520 Speaker 1: you God. It was just like you said, Bethany, it 650 00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:41,759 Speaker 1: was horrible. Well, so, Nancy, that's the flashback. You know. 651 00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:45,879 Speaker 1: With PTSD, they say that the victims have flashbacks as 652 00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:48,880 Speaker 1: if it's happening again. You probably were in the middle 653 00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:54,200 Speaker 1: of a flashback when John David was playing playing his sports, 654 00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:57,560 Speaker 1: and that's what's going to happen with this family. Let's 655 00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:00,920 Speaker 1: say this little girl gets her iPhone back and somebody 656 00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:04,520 Speaker 1: snapchats her. Can you imagine how they're going to feel. 657 00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:08,239 Speaker 1: They're going to imagine there are perpetrators at the other 658 00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:11,120 Speaker 1: end of the phone snapchatting her. They are going to 659 00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:17,279 Speaker 1: have panic attacks, anxiety, depression, fearfulness, isolation. These are not 660 00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:21,279 Speaker 1: just fancy world's words from the DSNN, the Diagnostic and 661 00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:26,680 Speaker 1: Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. These are very real syndromes. 662 00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:29,440 Speaker 1: And Nancy, you know because you have experienced it yourself. 663 00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:32,719 Speaker 1: It's as if you're back in the original trauma again. Well, 664 00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:36,160 Speaker 1: I was gonna ask you something else, Bethany, because when 665 00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:40,080 Speaker 1: that happened with John David, and I remember when it happened. 666 00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:42,640 Speaker 1: I don't know how I did it, because then he 667 00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:45,759 Speaker 1: already weighed. I forgot how much. I couldn't get an 668 00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:48,560 Speaker 1: elevator fast enough to get him to the hospital. And 669 00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:54,720 Speaker 1: I carried him four flights of stairs in my arms, 670 00:40:55,320 --> 00:41:00,839 Speaker 1: four flights of stairs, wooden stairs in my arms, with 671 00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:05,600 Speaker 1: me screaming, I don't even know who could hear me to? 672 00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:07,759 Speaker 1: Somebody help me get my card so I can I 673 00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:10,839 Speaker 1: can wait on an ambulance. And when he was out 674 00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:12,800 Speaker 1: on that Lacrosse Ville and when I was in a hospital, 675 00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:15,880 Speaker 1: it felt like Keith was getting murdered all over again. 676 00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:19,439 Speaker 1: So I don't understand what triggers that. But I'm thinking 677 00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:22,760 Speaker 1: about these parents of this girl. Every time her phone 678 00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:25,319 Speaker 1: goes bling, don't gonna think she's gonna get shot in 679 00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:29,480 Speaker 1: my head again. So what triggers it is that anything 680 00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:33,239 Speaker 1: that is even slightly similar to the original trauma. That's 681 00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:36,520 Speaker 1: why we have the term cumulative trauma. It's when one 682 00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:40,120 Speaker 1: bad thing happens, then another bad thing happens that reminds 683 00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:42,600 Speaker 1: you of the original trauma. So, like you said, just 684 00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:45,440 Speaker 1: her cell phone girl going off, that could send them 685 00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:47,920 Speaker 1: right back into it. Like for you with John Paul 686 00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:51,480 Speaker 1: with the head injury. You had already had experienced your 687 00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:56,239 Speaker 1: fiancee being murdered, so loss of life that's similar, potential damage, 688 00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:59,680 Speaker 1: loss of an attachment system that's important to you. It's 689 00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:02,840 Speaker 1: all of these similarities that stir up the anxiety of 690 00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:12,480 Speaker 1: the original event. Bobby Maxwell, Crime Stories, investigative reporter. The 691 00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:16,160 Speaker 1: only thing that I have known to do, other than 692 00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:20,759 Speaker 1: to try to save the twins from anything that could 693 00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:25,799 Speaker 1: hurt them, is to fight. I don't know if that's 694 00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:29,200 Speaker 1: normal or not, but to fight in court, fight crime, 695 00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:34,360 Speaker 1: to take the abuse, take the heat, keep going blah blah. 696 00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:41,040 Speaker 1: What is happening now with these two perpetrators? Where does 697 00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:45,719 Speaker 1: it stand? Bobby Maxwell? Well just UM. A little over 698 00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:49,960 Speaker 1: a week ago, Calter Peterson UM actually pled guilty to 699 00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:53,759 Speaker 1: attempt to aggregated murder. Um. They are not going to 700 00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:58,040 Speaker 1: give him a sentence until after Shason Decker's trial, which 701 00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:02,319 Speaker 1: starts in February. UM. A big concern is they want 702 00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:05,799 Speaker 1: to move them to separate facilities that they can't have 703 00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:08,480 Speaker 1: a conversation about backing each other up or whatever. So 704 00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:11,000 Speaker 1: they're they're afraid that too much information could be passed. 705 00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:13,879 Speaker 1: That they're trying to separate them and at this point. 706 00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:17,040 Speaker 1: The next thing will be Chason's trial in February. Uh, 707 00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:21,799 Speaker 1: and they'll both get their sentence. Yeah. What they're doing 708 00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:25,440 Speaker 1: right there, Pat Brown, is they have let one of 709 00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:30,560 Speaker 1: the guys played, and that would be coult or Danny Peterson, 710 00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:34,520 Speaker 1: the one who's turning eighteen. He's pled, but his sentence 711 00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:37,360 Speaker 1: has been withheld. Part of his play arrangement was that 712 00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:41,239 Speaker 1: he would testify truthfully in the trial of the codefendant 713 00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:45,279 Speaker 1: Jason Decker. So if he gets up there on the 714 00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:50,360 Speaker 1: stand and b s's and lies bye bye, a guilty 715 00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:53,600 Speaker 1: play and sentence he's going to He's going to trial 716 00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:57,640 Speaker 1: and then he'll get the max. The max, which is 717 00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:01,640 Speaker 1: probably life plus twenty would be my us to run consecutively. 718 00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:08,080 Speaker 1: So we'll see how this shakes out. Jason Decker, the 719 00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:12,239 Speaker 1: one who kept the shell casing is a quote memento 720 00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:14,839 Speaker 1: of shooting a child in the back of the head. 721 00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:18,280 Speaker 1: That one won't plead. He's gonna make everybody go through 722 00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:23,520 Speaker 1: a trial. As I referred to them on Daily Mail TV, 723 00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:30,520 Speaker 1: minions from Hell, Pat Brown, minions from Hell. Oh absolutely, 724 00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:33,000 Speaker 1: And unfortunately, I think what happened with the police deal 725 00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:35,879 Speaker 1: is Peter film. But just may not get that much time, 726 00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:38,640 Speaker 1: which is really frightening because if they lower that time 727 00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:40,680 Speaker 1: and I've I've heard even down to something like six 728 00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:43,960 Speaker 1: heres possibly, which is which is terrifying, because what's he 729 00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:46,480 Speaker 1: gonna be twenty three years old as you know, psychopath 730 00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:49,359 Speaker 1: back down on the street of violent psychopath killer, Uh 731 00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:52,480 Speaker 1: you know, twenty three years old as now. I wouldn't 732 00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:55,440 Speaker 1: say this. I'm simply quoting at three three year old 733 00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:57,640 Speaker 1: man straight out of jail. He'll be full of piston vinegar, 734 00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:00,960 Speaker 1: ready to go. Ah, well here, you know. That's the 735 00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:03,200 Speaker 1: that's one of the problems when we have people thinking 736 00:45:03,239 --> 00:45:05,560 Speaker 1: that they're going to do their time, that's good enough 737 00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:07,120 Speaker 1: and somehow to when you teach them something. When it 738 00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:10,080 Speaker 1: comes down to a psychopathic what what as you pointed out, 739 00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:13,719 Speaker 1: probably serial killer if he had the opportunity, they're the 740 00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:15,640 Speaker 1: only amount of time that is good for them is 741 00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:18,839 Speaker 1: all time. In other words, these are people you can 742 00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:21,920 Speaker 1: never release back into society and have them be safe. 743 00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:23,840 Speaker 1: What it's really scary is when they're in prison and 744 00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:26,520 Speaker 1: when they deal with the going through psychotherapy, is they 745 00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:28,839 Speaker 1: learn more tricks, learn more tricks, how to get over 746 00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:30,920 Speaker 1: on people, learn more tricks, how to get away with 747 00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:33,359 Speaker 1: prime to put these people back out of the street again, 748 00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:35,799 Speaker 1: and you're just you know, you know, it's it's like 749 00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:38,560 Speaker 1: ticking time bomb, and it's it's really ridiculous to release 750 00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:41,120 Speaker 1: them back into society. It simply is, you know, I 751 00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:44,359 Speaker 1: don't think these guys think about their future, like what's 752 00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:46,880 Speaker 1: going to happen? What is going to happen to them? Like, 753 00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:49,239 Speaker 1: let's just say they ain't going to go to an 754 00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:51,480 Speaker 1: Ivy Lake school and get their NBA at Wharton. Okay, 755 00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:54,160 Speaker 1: let's just go with that for now. But speaking of 756 00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:57,399 Speaker 1: the feature dot dot Aanthany, I have got to think 757 00:45:57,480 --> 00:46:02,000 Speaker 1: of something good. I have to think something good because 758 00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:04,279 Speaker 1: I think that's why the state never has to prove 759 00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:08,880 Speaker 1: motive in crimes. I can only stay in their heads 760 00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:11,520 Speaker 1: for so long and then I just want to run 761 00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:14,919 Speaker 1: out and how like an animal. Give me something good. 762 00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:18,319 Speaker 1: Dr Bethany, tell me that this girl can start her 763 00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:21,560 Speaker 1: life I over again. Tell me there is a way. Well, 764 00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:24,560 Speaker 1: what I think is good is that human beings are 765 00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:28,280 Speaker 1: remarkably resilient. They really are. And we hear the doom 766 00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:31,520 Speaker 1: and gloom side of victims of sexual abuse and trauma, 767 00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:35,239 Speaker 1: and uh, sadistic acts such as this. We look at 768 00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:38,080 Speaker 1: the dark side sometimes in the field of psychotherapy, but 769 00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:40,320 Speaker 1: we also are trained to look at the bright side, 770 00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:44,439 Speaker 1: which is the human spirit is indomitable. Look at your relationship, 771 00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:48,000 Speaker 1: um with John David and him being on the cross 772 00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:51,200 Speaker 1: field and you being so proud of watching him. Sure 773 00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:53,960 Speaker 1: you were frightened and traumatized when you saw him, but 774 00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:57,040 Speaker 1: on the other hand, everybody has survived and you're leading 775 00:46:57,040 --> 00:47:00,640 Speaker 1: a beautiful family life together. This little girl, say, has 776 00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:05,439 Speaker 1: a father who adores her. His life is devoted to her. Now, 777 00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:08,200 Speaker 1: did you see the little sister who is pushing her wheelchair. 778 00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:11,440 Speaker 1: She's surrounded by family who loves her. And in the end, 779 00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:14,880 Speaker 1: love really does conquer all. It's our attachment systems in 780 00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:17,239 Speaker 1: which we feel safe and secure and we know that 781 00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:21,160 Speaker 1: we're loved. That that's what causes healing. You know what, Bethanie, 782 00:47:21,719 --> 00:47:25,640 Speaker 1: You're so right when I see the family surrounding this 783 00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:30,440 Speaker 1: girl and I hear her stay, I'm tougher than a bullet. 784 00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:34,680 Speaker 1: You know what, If that little girl, Desiree Turner can 785 00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:38,319 Speaker 1: get up on her cane and say I'm tougher than 786 00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:41,640 Speaker 1: a bullet, then so can the rest of US, and 787 00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:49,719 Speaker 1: with that I'm signing off. Goodbye friend. Do you find 788 00:47:49,719 --> 00:47:52,840 Speaker 1: yourself obsessing over unsolved mysteries? Do you wish there was 789 00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:55,320 Speaker 1: a group of people just like you to talk motives 790 00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:58,200 Speaker 1: and alibies with. If so, join the crime Con Cold 791 00:47:58,239 --> 00:48:01,000 Speaker 1: Case Club and work alongside x birts and fellow crime 792 00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:03,520 Speaker 1: sleuths to help uncover new leads and theories in the 793 00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:06,719 Speaker 1: cold cases they adopt. Their first cold case focuses on 794 00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:09,759 Speaker 1: the mysterious disappearance of nursing student Maura Murray in two 795 00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:12,640 Speaker 1: thousand four, and it's free to join thanks to Oxygen. 796 00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:15,560 Speaker 1: Sign up now or find more info at club dot 797 00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:19,080 Speaker 1: crime con dot com. That's club dot crime con dot com.