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Speaker 1: Hi, Curse Up listeners, I know you miss me on

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Speaker 1: your feed. Don't worry. We're working on an all new

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Speaker 1: season of Curse Of coming out later this year. In

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Speaker 1: the meantime, if you can't stop thinking about the shocking

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Speaker 1: stories you heard about America's Next Top Model, you'll definitely

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Speaker 1: want to check out our new docuseries from E Dirty

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Speaker 1: Rotten Scandals. In the series, you'll hear from the America's

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Speaker 1: Next Top Model participants you heard from on Curse Of,

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Speaker 1: and a few you didn't like former A and TM

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Speaker 1: judge Janis Dickinson. Dirty Rotten Scandals unveils the dark underbelly

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Speaker 1: of the long running TV series through the untold stories

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Speaker 1: of former contestants, and shows what happens when a golden

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Speaker 1: opportunity for aspiring models unravels into a harrowing saga of exploitation,

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Speaker 1: shattered dreams, and resilience. You can find the two part

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Speaker 1: docuseries Dirty Rotten Scandals America's Next Top Model on E

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Speaker 1: Network check your local TV provider schedule. Is Cycle eighteen,

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Speaker 1: the British Invasion season of America's Next Top Model.

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Speaker 2: It's raining so hard, this is really windy, It's so so.

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Speaker 1: High up like I just We're on the deck of

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Speaker 1: the Macaw Tower, eleven hundred foot building. A and TM

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Speaker 1: Judge j Manuel just told the remaining five models of

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Speaker 1: the season.

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Speaker 3: The Macaw Tower is the home of the tallest bungee

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Speaker 3: jump in the world.

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Speaker 1: And that the top deck of this building, way out

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Speaker 1: on the ledge seven hundred and sixty feet up, is

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Speaker 1: the location for today's photo shoot.

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Speaker 4: We turn up at this bloody tower and it is

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Speaker 4: raining hard.

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Speaker 1: Maybe even haling, who knows it was definitely hailing. That's

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Speaker 1: Sophie Sumner, who you heard in the tape psyching herself

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Speaker 1: up to go out on that ledge, knowing full well

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Speaker 1: that one slippery wrong step combined with a horn its malfunction,

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Speaker 1: could send her flying into the pavement seven hundred and

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Speaker 1: fifty feet below. You met Sophie a few episodes ago.

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Speaker 1: She's the British model who said signing the A and

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Speaker 1: TM contract basically meant the show owned you. On her

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Speaker 1: season she walked a light pink Bob Very twenty twelve.

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Speaker 1: It was a season she went on to win, but

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Speaker 1: on this day she was ready to walk off set

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Speaker 1: and just go home.

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Speaker 4: We're in a brand new continent that most of us

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Speaker 4: have never been to and we go out on that

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Speaker 4: stupid ledge or something.

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Speaker 5: I am terrified of.

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Speaker 1: Height Cycle eighteen pit models from the UK against models

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Speaker 1: from the US, and Sophie wasn't new to this. She'd

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Speaker 1: competed on Britain's Next Top Model before A and TM,

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Speaker 1: But the photoshoot she did on that show looked like

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Speaker 1: school picture Dad compared to this drake in simple, long

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Speaker 1: black dresses with exaggerated shoulder pads and hairstyles that were

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Speaker 1: straight out of the Capitol beauty salon. On Honger Games.

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Speaker 1: The models worth for represent the strength and power of Macau,

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Speaker 1: but at this moment they were looking anything but strong.

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Speaker 4: I stepped out there and I have never to this

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Speaker 4: day been that terrified on the side of a building,

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Speaker 4: like slipping all over the place with rain coming down

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Speaker 4: god knows how high up.

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Speaker 1: Up to this point, Sophie had pretty much trusted the production.

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Speaker 1: Sure some of the photoshoots were over the top, but

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Speaker 1: she didn't think the show would ever put her in

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Speaker 1: harm's way. Now standing on that slippery seven hundred foot ledge,

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Speaker 1: she wasn't so sure. According to Sophie, under normal circumstances

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Speaker 1: in these weather conditions. The skywalk they were posing on

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Speaker 1: would be closed to the public.

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Speaker 4: I don't know if it's before the photo shoot or after,

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Speaker 4: but it definitely had been closed to the public. It

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Speaker 4: was definitely unsafe. It was not okay.

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Speaker 5: Ken Mook was there.

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Speaker 4: They were like, you know, we should really close it

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Speaker 4: type thing, and I remember him or somehow I overheard

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Speaker 4: something that he was like, no, we're doing.

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Speaker 6: This no matter what.

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Speaker 1: And so I also went out there.

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Speaker 7: With the knowledge that this wasn't safe and we shouldn't

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Speaker 7: be out there now.

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Speaker 1: I have to say this legally, I can't confirm if

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Speaker 1: Ken Max said that or not, but it is what

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Speaker 1: Sophie remembers. Okay, if you'll hear that until we turn around,

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Speaker 1: imagine being out on a ledge. You're terrified of heights.

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Speaker 1: You think the situation isn't safe, and in your mind,

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Speaker 1: the only thing keeping you from falling to your imminent

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Speaker 1: death is the harness you're clinging to. And then you

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Speaker 1: hear the photographer tell you to hold a pose.

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Speaker 8: Sorry someone without holding it.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'll get the harness a little bit further

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Speaker 1: away from my body. If you can stop holding the harness,

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Speaker 1: you mean, the thing keeping her from falling off this

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Speaker 1: slippery seven hundred and sixty foot leg. I was just shaking, crying.

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Speaker 4: It's so awful, right because you actually have no choice.

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Speaker 7: You're going home because you didn't see the photo shoot.

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Speaker 9: I feel like we've got good shots.

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Speaker 1: Sophie didn't know it then, but the shaking, the crying,

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Speaker 1: the pure of terror and panic in her eyes was

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Speaker 1: all by design. You see heights. What's her biggest fear?

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Speaker 9: If someone had a particular fear, we would find out

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Speaker 9: in the costings.

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Speaker 1: That's Andrew Patterson, the creative producer for A and TM

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Speaker 1: cycles fifteen through twenty. He and his team came up

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Speaker 1: with every photoshoot the models did, including this one. He

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Speaker 1: was the reason they were up there struggling to look

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Speaker 1: strong and beautiful while being pelted with freezing rain. Andrew

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Speaker 1: had designed this photo shoot to get this very reaction

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Speaker 1: out of the models.

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Speaker 9: You go through the casting falls and you'd be like, okay, well,

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Speaker 9: this one's scared of heights, so maybe this cycle we

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Speaker 9: should do a photo shoot which is one hundred stories

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Speaker 9: in the air.

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Speaker 1: He was there that day to see how his little

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Speaker 1: experiment unfolded.

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Speaker 9: It is pissing down with rain. It is so cold

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Speaker 9: out there. I think there might have been slight icicles,

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Speaker 9: like literally, like the girls are getting pelted by ice

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Speaker 9: and they're in tears and they're crying, and you know,

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Speaker 9: girls are going out there and they're slipping and they're falling.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, if the models wanted to blame anyone other than

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Speaker 1: themselves were signing up for this. Andrew was the guy,

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Speaker 1: but that didn't mean he didn't have a heart.

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Speaker 9: I'm a nice guy, and you know, I'm trying to like,

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Speaker 9: you know, warm them up, and I'm like, you know,

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Speaker 9: consoling them, like, oh sweetheart, it's okay, you can do this.

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Speaker 9: Don't worry, don't worry, don't worry.

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Speaker 1: But A and TM's executive producer Ken Mack wasn't having it.

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Speaker 9: And I get a tap in the back of my

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Speaker 9: shoulder from Ken Mock say, Andrew, stop it, stop it.

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Speaker 9: We want to see these girls cry. This is going

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Speaker 9: to make great television. Stop consoling them, play it out,

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Speaker 9: let them be as it is.

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Speaker 1: Maybe and a shoot. In the real world, it would

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Speaker 1: be kind even expected for a creative producer to comfort

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Speaker 1: the scared talent. But this wasn't the real world. This

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Speaker 1: was reality TV. You want to beyond, Some want to

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Speaker 1: beyond some. Welcome to the Curse of America's Next Top Model.

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Speaker 1: I'm Bridget Armstrong. Even though reality TV is supposed to

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Speaker 1: be real, we all know, at least these days, it's

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Speaker 1: really about telling a story, and A and TM was

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Speaker 1: no exception. The show presented itself as a look behind

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Speaker 1: the curtain, a window into what it took to be

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Speaker 1: a high fashion model. But America's Next Top Model was

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Speaker 1: always a reality TV show first and a modeling competition second.

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Speaker 1: It prioritized drama and good characters over the best models,

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Speaker 1: and featured unrealistic and even dangerous photoshoots that no model

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Speaker 1: would ever do in the real industry, like dangling Sophie

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Speaker 1: off the side of a seven hundred foot building just

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Speaker 1: so we could see her freak out. They did that

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Speaker 1: to make great reality TV. So on this episode, we're

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Speaker 1: going to take a look at how the show achieved

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Speaker 1: that and what the cost was to the model. By

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Speaker 1: the time we get to the macau Tower photoshoot on

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Speaker 1: cycle eighteen, A and TM had already built a reputation

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Speaker 1: for wacky and extreme photoshoots, challenges, and runways. These are

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Speaker 1: the stunts that made A and TM iconic, and each

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Speaker 1: season they had to top the last. There are so

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Speaker 1: many outrageous photoshoots in A and TM history that I've

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Speaker 1: decided to make them into a little game. I'm calling it,

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Speaker 1: Did that really happened? My team and I came up

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Speaker 1: with the most ridiculous fictional runways and photoshoots we could

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Speaker 1: think of. I want you to guess which are the

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Speaker 1: ones we made up in which actually happened on A

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Speaker 1: and TM. Consider it a test of your top model knowledge. Okay,

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Speaker 1: let's start. Is it A the models pose inside a

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Speaker 1: meat locker lying on an ice block with nothing but

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Speaker 1: a bikini on. Or B the models are submerged in

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Speaker 1: a freezing cold pool for over forty five minutes, wearing

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Speaker 1: nothing but a thin gown. If you guess B, you

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Speaker 1: are correct. On cycle seven, the models have to pose

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Speaker 1: in water so cold one of the contestants, Carrie d English,

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Speaker 1: almost got hypothermia. Carry you're from Fargo.

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Speaker 10: Come on, this is real, real modeling, guys.

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Speaker 11: Being cold as there's a point where my body just

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Speaker 11: literally takes over, Like I feel like my skin and

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Speaker 11: everything that's just like pins and needles go. When the

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Speaker 11: camera got on me, you know, I try to just

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Speaker 11: take those shivers away and not let her show my face.

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Speaker 8: She was so cold knit, she was kind of convulsive.

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Speaker 3: As a model, you need to tell people when you've

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Speaker 3: passed your limit. It wasn't just that she was cold.

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Speaker 3: It wasn't just that her teeth were chattering. She had

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Speaker 3: reached the moment of hypo.

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Speaker 1: Fermil Yep, you heard that right after Tyra encouraged Carrie

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Speaker 1: D to stick it out because she's some fargo. Jay

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Speaker 1: Manuel blamed Carrie D for not saying she was literally

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Speaker 1: freezing sooner. Okay, that one was a little too easy.

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Speaker 1: Let's try another one, which is a real A and

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Speaker 1: TM photo shoot. Is it A the models are harnessed

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Speaker 1: to the wing of a low flying plane and full

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Speaker 1: lamb with aviator jackets and six inch chos. Or B

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Speaker 1: the models have to strut down a moving conveyor belt

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Speaker 1: in front of an audience while wearing full length gowns

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Speaker 1: and six inch chos. The answer is B. On cycle fifteen,

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Speaker 1: the models had to walk a conveyor belt in the

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Speaker 1: second Street tunnel in La I've never felt more embarrassed

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Speaker 1: at one time in my life.

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Speaker 7: I'd rather have natural labor again than do this.

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Speaker 2: I didn't come in here having a very good walk

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Speaker 2: in the first place, and I guess I started to

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Speaker 2: overthink it when come.

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Speaker 8: They are built when you go backwards, kind of bumpy,

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Speaker 8: so like I got on there and my shoes just

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Speaker 8: fulled right off.

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Speaker 7: But I still was smiling though.

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Speaker 11: Yeah, I'm still fears.

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Speaker 2: I'm still feared.

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Speaker 1: When you heard the audience go whoa, That was their

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Speaker 1: reaction to one of the models actually tripping and falling

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Speaker 1: off the runway. Okay, let's change the rules a little

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Speaker 1: bit and play two truths and a lie. I'll give

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Speaker 1: you three scenarios, two of which actually happened on A

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Speaker 1: and T M. The other was made up. Option A

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Speaker 1: the models do a photo shoot in Canada drenched in

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Speaker 1: maple syrup while wearing maple league. B the models do

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Speaker 1: a photo shoot in Japan in a tank of coyfish

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Speaker 1: while wearing Ramen noodles.

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Speaker 5: Or C.

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Speaker 1: The models do a photoshoot in Greece posing on top

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Speaker 1: of a giant bowl of Greek salad, wearing nothing but

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Speaker 1: a bikini. Now, remember two of these really happened on

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Speaker 1: A and TM. If you guessed A and C, you

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Speaker 1: are correct. Andrew told me the maple syrup photoshoot was

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Speaker 1: a last minute idea. The girls were supposed to do

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Speaker 1: a photo shoot for former A and TM judge and

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Speaker 1: supermodel Twiggy's clothing brand. At the time, Twiggy was living

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Speaker 1: in Canada, but when she canceled the day before the shoot,

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Speaker 1: Andrew and his team had to come up with something quick.

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Speaker 9: We started at six am, like, we're going to have

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Speaker 9: the girls in hair and makeup. I'll go, okay, what's

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Speaker 9: this country famous for? Maple syrup? Okay, all right, all right, okay,

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Speaker 9: maple leaves a maple syrup, and so we were like okay.

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Speaker 9: So literally from then we went outside and we grabbed

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Speaker 9: all these maple leaves and we had all these bikinis

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Speaker 9: and I started sewing maple leaves onto bikinis.

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Speaker 1: And the Greek salad photos. She well, that was Tyra's idea.

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Speaker 9: They're like, we're going to Greece and next cycle. I

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Speaker 9: was like, okay, that's pretty cool, and so we contacted

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Speaker 9: the tourism bureau and Greece and you know, typically that's

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Speaker 9: what would happen, is that one of the executives would

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Speaker 9: do deals with the tourism bureau of each country or

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Speaker 9: an airline to bring us all out there. In the

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Speaker 9: meeting with Tyra, I'm like, what do you think of Greece? Tira,

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Speaker 9: tell me the first thing that comes to your mind,

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Speaker 9: and she goes the Greek salad. And I was like,

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Speaker 9: oh my god, you don't think Greek mythology, you don't

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Speaker 9: think Medusa, you don't think all of these other beautiful things.

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Speaker 9: You think of a Greek salad. And she goes, Yep,

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Speaker 9: I want to throw the girls into a ball of

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Speaker 9: Greek salad. Andrew I was like, okay, well let me

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Speaker 9: let me talk to the group Jews and Bureer, just

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Speaker 9: see if I can win them over with this gride

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Speaker 9: r D. But it was it was very top model,

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Speaker 9: you know what I mean? To thre the girls into

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Speaker 9: a ball of Greek salad? Which was that first photo

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Speaker 9: shoot in.

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Speaker 1: Creet Okay, last question for extra credit, choose all that apply.

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Speaker 1: Which of these runways did a and TM feature that

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Speaker 1: actually caused the models bodily harm? Is it a a

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Speaker 1: floating runway where the models had to walk a rickety

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Speaker 1: runway that was floating in a pool while wearing six

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Speaker 1: inch heels Is it B a pendulum runway where the

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Speaker 1: models had to walk a runway while dodging a pendulum

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Speaker 1: swinging back and forth. Is it C a runway where

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Speaker 1: the models were placed inside a plastic bubble and told

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Speaker 1: to walk a twelve inch wide runway that was floating

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Speaker 1: over water. Or is it D a runway where the

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Speaker 1: contestants had to walk down the side of a building

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Speaker 1: in a harness that, my friends, was a trick question.

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Speaker 1: The answer is all for congratulations to our winners. As

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Speaker 1: a prize, you get to continue listening to this episode,

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Speaker 1: and you know what, I'm such a benevolent host.

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Speaker 6: Some of the.

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Speaker 1: Losers and these runways didn't just happen to be dangerous.

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Speaker 1: Freelance reporter Kate Taylor wrote an excellent piece all about

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Speaker 1: Top Model for Business Insider. She's a consulting producer for

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Speaker 1: this podcast. She told me she talked to an A

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Speaker 1: and TM crew member who told her the floating runway

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Speaker 1: was rickety on purpose.

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Speaker 12: I spoke with a producer actually who for the floating runways,

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Speaker 12: said that they had people go in and loosen the

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Speaker 12: runway even more to make it less safe because they're like, well,

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Speaker 12: it's going to be more interesting if someone falls. So

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Speaker 12: that was something that throughout the process seemed to be

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Speaker 12: you want to make good television, and at times aimes,

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Speaker 12: the good television came at the expense of the well

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Speaker 12: being of contestants.

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Speaker 1: Eugena Washington, who competed on that season cycle seven, was

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Speaker 1: one of the ones who fell on the runway.

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Speaker 13: As soon as I stepped on it with one foot,

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Speaker 13: I split.

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Speaker 10: I kept going after I fell off, I just keept going.

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Speaker 1: I'm freaking bleeding. Eugena still has the scar from that

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Speaker 1: to this day. Here she is talking with consulting producer

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Speaker 1: Oliver Twigs on his YouTube channel.

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Speaker 13: I don't know if you can see this scar, but

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Speaker 13: this scar right.

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Speaker 1: This this Eugena sit up to show Oliver a nasty

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Speaker 1: scar on her knee.

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Speaker 14: Yes, with my real life body.

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Speaker 10: Okay, okay, because you're on this runway that's floating. And

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Speaker 10: so they put on ful corsets, pulled them as tired

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Speaker 10: as they could possibly pull them, so I could not breathe.

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Speaker 10: And then I had six inch stiletto hills, like needle

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Speaker 10: stiletto hills, So I'm walking on my fucking tippy toes.

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Speaker 10: And then the shoes are a size too big, and

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Speaker 10: they said go out there.

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Speaker 15: And poles it bit.

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Speaker 7: You better smiles in front.

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Speaker 10: Of all these lights in the dark under these conditions.

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Speaker 10: So as a human being, you're like this, I can

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Speaker 10: die because first I can't breathe, I can't walk. And

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Speaker 10: then the runways going like this on top of water,

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Speaker 10: and they're talking about get to the end and take

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Speaker 10: a good picture.

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Speaker 1: And the pendulum runway A and TM found mixer Jose

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Speaker 1: Torres was there that day and he remembers how it

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Speaker 1: all went.

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Speaker 16: Down that pendulum runway. The entire crew was on pins

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Speaker 16: and needles waiting for somebody, you know, and we don't

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Speaker 16: want somebody to get knocked off, but we're like it

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Speaker 16: was funny but not funny. And then the one girl

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Speaker 16: who got hit. I'm trying to remember who that was.

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Speaker 16: I can't remember.

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Speaker 1: Her name was Alexandra.

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Speaker 16: Oh yeah, she was so nice, but yeah, man, she

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Speaker 16: got hit. And it like you could just play like

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Speaker 16: that cartoon sound or somebody sort of like about to

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Speaker 16: teeter off the side and fall off, and you could

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Speaker 16: just hear like the bongo sound or whatever the wh

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Speaker 16: whoa whoa woa end off she went and crashed into

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Speaker 16: some lights and she cut up her knee and we're like,

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Speaker 16: oh God, no.

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Speaker 1: All of this, all of these wild photoshoots and challenges

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Speaker 1: happened before the cycle eighteen Makal Tower photo shoot you

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Speaker 1: heard at the top of this episode, and by the

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Speaker 1: time that aired, A and TM was past its heyday

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Speaker 1: and struggling to draw an audience as large as previous seasons.

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Speaker 1: A modeling competition where ten to fourteen girls battle it

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Speaker 1: out to see who's the best, was no longer cutting it.

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Speaker 1: Creative producer Andrew Patterson again was.

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Speaker 17: Very adamant that after cycle thirteen, she never wanted to

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Speaker 17: do a normal top model again, so she started with

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Speaker 17: short girls and then she went into high fashion and

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Speaker 17: then it progressed from there.

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Speaker 9: So when I started, there was always a theme.

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Speaker 1: There was the All Star season, the college season, the

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Speaker 1: British Invasion, and the seasons where they included guys. But

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Speaker 1: it wasn't just the season themes that had to up

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Speaker 1: the ante. It was the challenges, the photoshoots and the

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Speaker 1: runways themselves, which was not an easy task. By the

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Speaker 1: time Andrew started in twenty fifteen.

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Speaker 9: We were just trying to do things that hadn't been

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Speaker 9: done before, especially when I joined, they had already done

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Speaker 9: two hundred and fifty photo shoots on camera before, so

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Speaker 9: trying to come up with creative that they had never

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Speaker 9: been seen was not easy. I'd sit there and I'd

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Speaker 9: pitch things to Tire and she'd be like, oh no, honey,

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Speaker 9: we did that Citle two, Episode eight. I was like,

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Speaker 9: damn it, okay, And for each photo shoot I had

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Speaker 9: to come up with fifteen different options. When you look

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Speaker 9: at that, that's one hundred to one hundred and eighty

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Speaker 9: different options per cycle.

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Speaker 1: So would you say that you guys were sort of

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Speaker 1: encouraged to do these things that could cross some that

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Speaker 1: will say accident, so mis apps and far ofsome trip ups.

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Speaker 1: Were you encouraged to do that?

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Speaker 6: Yeah?

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Speaker 9: We were encouraged to make things spicy, make things like

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Speaker 9: they'd never been seen before. We thought it made good TV.

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Speaker 9: And a lot of this came down to wanting the

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Speaker 9: audience to go, wow, did you see this? Like, oh

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Speaker 9: my god, can you believe that they did this? Can

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Speaker 9: you believe that they did that? So we had to

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Speaker 9: come up with these elements of fear or these different

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Speaker 9: elements to see if the girls could have it or

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Speaker 9: be able to do the photo shoot, or go underwater

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Speaker 9: and hold their breath and be able to strike a pose,

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Speaker 9: or you know, can they smile while they have a

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Speaker 9: silkworm on them? Or are they able to hold it

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Speaker 9: together when they're you know, two hundred stories in the

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Speaker 9: air being thrown off the side of the building in

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Speaker 9: Pelking Rain.

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Speaker 1: Working models sometimes have to pose in a scary situation

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Speaker 1: or with a wild animal. Cindy Crawford posed Knew with

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Speaker 1: a Boa constrictor in the nineties. One time, Kate Upton

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Speaker 1: polls in a bikini in Antarctica while standing on an iceberg.

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Speaker 1: But those kinds of photoshoots are rare. Andrew work as

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Speaker 1: a fashion photographer in the real world before joining A

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Speaker 1: and TM. He told me professional photoshoots are almost always

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Speaker 1: the opposite of what we thought on top.

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Speaker 9: Model, coming from the real world of advertising. I've shot

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Speaker 9: campaigns for Louis Vuitton, I've shot campaigns for Chanel, Hugo Boss.

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Speaker 9: That's not how we do it. Top model is not

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Speaker 9: how we do it in the real world. And model's

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Speaker 9: pictures are very intimate. It's between them and the photographer.

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Speaker 9: It's when you have a connection with a photographer and

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Speaker 9: you really connect with them that you actually get beautiful images,

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Speaker 9: and not a lot of that goes on on Top Model.

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Speaker 9: There's intimate moments where you get you know, these beautiful

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Speaker 9: you know, big eyes and you get your reactions. Those

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Speaker 9: moments wouldn't work, you know, on America's Egg Top Model

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Speaker 9: because they just changed the channel and it'd be very boring,

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Speaker 9: you know, crazy, wacky, quirky, unusual photoshoots. Was to keep

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Speaker 9: the audience, and that was to keep ratings. That was

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Speaker 9: to keep you know, people wanting to watch the next

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Speaker 9: episode or you know, tuning into the next cycle. I

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Speaker 9: mean a lot of this stuff might not be realistic,

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Speaker 9: but it certainly added to the story in which we

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Speaker 9: were creating, and it added to the competitive element of

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Speaker 9: a competition reality show.

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Speaker 1: On cycle one, they did do semi realistic photoshoots and

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Speaker 1: the result most bands consider Cycle two to be the

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Speaker 1: real start of America's next Top Model. I don't think

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Speaker 1: A and TM would have lasted very long if it

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Speaker 1: would have remained realistic. A TM took the premise of

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Speaker 1: modeling and made it entertaining, and there's nothing wrong about

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Speaker 1: that project. Runway takes the art of designing clothes and

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Speaker 1: makes it competitive by presenting themed and timed challenges. The

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Speaker 1: issue with A and TM is that models you use

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Speaker 1: their faces and bodies to convey their talent, and that

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Speaker 1: means putting their bodies on the line, which seems even

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Speaker 1: more insidious when you consider they signed a contract that

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Speaker 1: says if they get hurt while carrying out these production

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Speaker 1: fever dreams, A and TM wouldn't owe them anything, not

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Speaker 1: even medical care once they left the show if they

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Speaker 1: got a long term injury. Many of the models signed

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Speaker 1: up to do these outrageous things because they thought it

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Speaker 1: would help them in the real modeling world, but as

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Speaker 1: we said over and over, for most of them, it didn't.

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Speaker 1: It actually made them a joke in the fashion industry.

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Speaker 1: After the break, we'll take a look at the casting

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Speaker 1: process and how from the very beginning A ANDTM was

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Speaker 1: thinking about the story, not the best models. There's a

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Speaker 1: process for creating the characters and personalities we love and

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Speaker 1: hate on reality TV. It starts in casting.

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Speaker 18: The unscripted world. You're dealing with everyday people and they

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Speaker 18: are not actors.

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Speaker 1: That's Raphael Doorball. He was a casting producer for America's

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Speaker 1: Next Top Model Cycles twenty one through twenty four. Those

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Speaker 1: were the seasons that included guys and girls. Thousands of

438
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,760
Speaker 1: wanna be contestants sent in audition tapes and showed up

439
00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:24,720
Speaker 1: to castings. Raphael was a part of the team who

440
00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:26,680
Speaker 1: looked for people who would pop on screen.

441
00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:30,480
Speaker 18: Some people are already amplified, they're pre turned. They come

442
00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:33,320
Speaker 18: in the door swinging, you know, and we're just steering them.

443
00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:37,359
Speaker 1: Like Brittany Brower from Cycle four. Brittany looked a lot

444
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:40,439
Speaker 1: like a young Janis Dickinson, something that probably made her

445
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:44,560
Speaker 1: stand out. Here's what she said happened during her casting process.

446
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:47,199
Speaker 19: I got called in a room probably with maybe like

447
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:49,000
Speaker 19: twenty to thirty other women.

448
00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:51,679
Speaker 7: They had to stand in a big circle and go

449
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:54,919
Speaker 7: around the room and say who we were and a

450
00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:57,800
Speaker 7: little bit about ourselves. And everyone was just kind of

451
00:24:57,840 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 7: going around the circle, and you know.

452
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:03,400
Speaker 4: Like, Hi, I'm Diana, I'm from you know, the North Carolina.

453
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:05,120
Speaker 1: I like pink flowers.

454
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,840
Speaker 19: And then she gets around to me and I'm like, hello,

455
00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:12,160
Speaker 19: I'm Riddy Alena Brower. I'm from Tallahassee, Florida. I'm twenty

456
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:16,480
Speaker 19: two years old. Go signoles, and I am so happy

457
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:20,000
Speaker 19: to be here. Michelle like stopped everybody.

458
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:24,160
Speaker 1: Michelle Mopp, the head casting director, and I.

459
00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:27,399
Speaker 19: Had a green abercromy skirt on, and she goes, you

460
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:29,480
Speaker 19: see green skirt here, you see green skirts, call me

461
00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:30,040
Speaker 19: green skirt.

462
00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:33,119
Speaker 1: She's like, you guys, see green skirt here. She's like,

463
00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:34,159
Speaker 1: that's the kind.

464
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:36,399
Speaker 7: Of energy we need from all of you.

465
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:40,439
Speaker 1: But not everyone comes in pre turned like Brittany. It

466
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:43,399
Speaker 1: was rare fail's job as a casting producer to identify

467
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:45,160
Speaker 1: that spark in a contestant.

468
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:50,159
Speaker 18: We are taking their personality and basically amplifying it.

469
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 1: Sometimes potential contestants need the casting producers to put that

470
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:55,920
Speaker 1: battery in their back.

471
00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:59,800
Speaker 18: So we're in the semi final stage and we're figuring out, okay,

472
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:03,640
Speaker 18: he's going to make casting. This one guy, it came

473
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:05,639
Speaker 18: out to where the producers were and he said, I

474
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:06,159
Speaker 18: can't do this.

475
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:08,080
Speaker 5: I can't do this, and he's freaking out. I was like,

476
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:09,200
Speaker 5: what's the matter, what's it going on?

477
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:11,440
Speaker 18: He's like, I can't say this one and this one's

478
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:13,320
Speaker 18: a bit and she just wants phony and blah blah blah,

479
00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:14,560
Speaker 18: and he had so much to say.

480
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,040
Speaker 1: The guy wanted out. He didn't think he could handle

481
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:21,679
Speaker 1: all the different personalities. But instead of seeing a quitter,

482
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:24,560
Speaker 1: Raphael saw the makings of great TV.

483
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:27,480
Speaker 18: I was like, oh god, you have strong feelings, okay,

484
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:31,199
Speaker 18: so oh right, well why are you telling me? And

485
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 18: he's like, I just have events. I can't I don't

486
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:34,000
Speaker 18: even want to be out there with them. I don't

487
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,359
Speaker 18: want to and he's getting all agitated, and I was like, well,

488
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:39,359
Speaker 18: I don't think you should be telling me this. Why

489
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:40,920
Speaker 18: don't you go say that to the face. It seems

490
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:42,440
Speaker 18: like you you know, you gotta a lot to.

491
00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:46,080
Speaker 5: Tell them, so tell them. So he did.

492
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 18: He went out there and he had stuff to say,

493
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:56,120
Speaker 18: and he made the cast. So casting producers, we literally

494
00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:57,679
Speaker 18: are creating people.

495
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:01,359
Speaker 1: Sarn Brown was still in high school when she was

496
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:03,800
Speaker 1: on cycle eleven of Top Model, and she looked like

497
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:07,159
Speaker 1: it on our season. She had this big, infectious smile

498
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,400
Speaker 1: that betrayed her age. She turned eighteen a month before

499
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:12,919
Speaker 1: she auditioned. She told me she was one of the

500
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:16,760
Speaker 1: ones who needed guidance, and that guidance started during the

501
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:17,360
Speaker 1: psyche bow.

502
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:22,359
Speaker 8: The psychologist proceders, so basically give us our character, which

503
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:24,480
Speaker 8: I didn't know at the time, but he started it

504
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:27,159
Speaker 8: off by saying like, wow, looked over all of your

505
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 8: stuff and I can see that you're a very confident person.

506
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:32,639
Speaker 8: Now looking back, I was like, oh, he was giving

507
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,880
Speaker 8: me my character or like what they wanted to portray

508
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:36,520
Speaker 8: me at.

509
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 13: And he also went with like, but I can see

510
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:42,960
Speaker 13: here also very reserved. In this situation.

511
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 8: You want to make sure that you lean more to

512
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:47,679
Speaker 8: that confidence side, that you lead more into this. I

513
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:50,159
Speaker 8: thought that, like, oh, well, he's telling me about myself

514
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 8: and affirming who I am and how was how kind?

515
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:55,360
Speaker 13: But yeah, no, and he was giving me my character.

516
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 8: Then that was followed up by the producer who then

517
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:01,960
Speaker 8: reiterated that was like, I know you like to read,

518
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:04,720
Speaker 8: and I know you're an introvert, but in this situation

519
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:06,679
Speaker 8: we needed to be very, very extroverted.

520
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,600
Speaker 1: Sharan told me she struggled with self esteem when she

521
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:16,080
Speaker 1: was younger. Her mom instilled a sense of confidence in her,

522
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:19,879
Speaker 1: taught her how to say positive affirmations. Maybe that's what

523
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:23,399
Speaker 1: producers picked up on, a sense of outward confidence that

524
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:27,199
Speaker 1: was still developing on the inside. Rafael told me it

525
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:30,119
Speaker 1: was their job to really get to know potential castmates

526
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:32,440
Speaker 1: beyond what they presented on the surface.

527
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:35,800
Speaker 18: You can tell they've never had a day of therapy

528
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 18: in their life because they want to suddenly tell me everything.

529
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 5: We learn a lot about people in a very short

530
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 5: period of time.

531
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:50,960
Speaker 1: It was a producer's job to make contestants feel comfortable

532
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:52,240
Speaker 1: enough to talk openly.

533
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 18: You're building a relationship or rapport with these people. So yeah,

534
00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 18: a big part of being a casting producer is building

535
00:28:59,080 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 18: trusts for sure.

536
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:04,720
Speaker 1: Tarn says she was an open book during her casting process.

537
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 1: Once the producers had an idea of who she was,

538
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:09,920
Speaker 1: or at least who they wanted her to be on

539
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:12,880
Speaker 1: the show, they started coaching her on what to do

540
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:15,320
Speaker 1: and say. They came up with something that made her

541
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 1: stand out in her audition where she met Tyra and

542
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 1: the Jays.

543
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:22,240
Speaker 8: Our first meeting with the judges, they were asked me, Okay,

544
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:23,480
Speaker 8: so what are you gonna do? And I was like,

545
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:27,000
Speaker 8: I just gonna go and leave me and say you know,

546
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 8: and they're like, no, you gotta come up with something.

547
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 8: I was like, Okay, was like, we wanted this to

548
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:35,880
Speaker 8: be memorable. So that's where the whole like Lucky abdwere

549
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:38,560
Speaker 8: came from because that was kind of like we talked

550
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 8: about that together.

551
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 1: The competition has started and I'm ready for it.

552
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:43,760
Speaker 8: And when the competition is on, I got my game

553
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 8: face on and I'm like, Hella, confidence.

554
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:47,680
Speaker 1: Are you convinced you've already won?

555
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 13: I know it, Tira, Oh tell me why?

556
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 12: Because I am America's next time model.

557
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 1: You guys just don't know it yet. And what is

558
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:58,480
Speaker 1: that in your hand? I'm lucky underwa.

559
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 8: The thing we've done so far, I've had them.

560
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 1: I always look it, she says. When producers were going

561
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 1: over her semi finals plan with her, she mentioned that

562
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 1: she had a pair of underwear that said America's next

563
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:14,680
Speaker 1: top Model across the butt. The producers loved them and

564
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 1: told her she should use that in front of the

565
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:21,000
Speaker 1: judging panel, and the little stunt worked. Sharon made it

566
00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:23,600
Speaker 1: into the house, but once she was in the house,

567
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:27,880
Speaker 1: producers told her she still needed to present her confident facade.

568
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:30,240
Speaker 13: The camera makes you look smaller, so we need you

569
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:32,640
Speaker 13: to be figger with all of your actions. If there's

570
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 13: anything going on, make sure you're the first one there.

571
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:37,320
Speaker 8: Tyra loved your like. They would keep telling me that

572
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 8: Tyra loved your confidence. Tyra loves your confidence. Love and

573
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 8: so just camping it up, and they did it in

574
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:45,560
Speaker 8: a way where you felt like you were getting a

575
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:50,800
Speaker 8: private meeting with producers at the time, realizing that I

576
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:54,680
Speaker 8: was being pushed or manipulated a coach that away, I

577
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:57,360
Speaker 8: just thought that it was like a big sister trying

578
00:30:57,360 --> 00:30:59,240
Speaker 8: to put me on a game of how to you know,

579
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 8: how to show up.

580
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:06,000
Speaker 1: Creating characters in reality TV isn't specific to A and TM.

581
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 1: Audiences need characters to know who to identify with, who

582
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:12,520
Speaker 1: to root for, and who to root agains. Often the

583
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 1: characters play into archetypes or stereotypes we already know that

584
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 1: makes them memorable. Professor Amanda Kline teaches about reality television

585
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 1: at East Carolina University. She says, creating character is what

586
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:29,040
Speaker 1: makes the story stick. This is sort of a fundamental

587
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:29,720
Speaker 1: human need.

588
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:33,440
Speaker 15: The way people make sense of the world is through categories,

589
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 15: putting things into places that help them make sense. Why

590
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:43,800
Speaker 15: it's important on reality TV is they need to establish

591
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:48,360
Speaker 15: character and story right away, and so to do that,

592
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 15: they need people to appear as certain character types.

593
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 1: You've heard me refer to former contestants as the girl

594
00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:00,680
Speaker 1: next door, the wild child, or the villain. This association

595
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:05,480
Speaker 1: on A and TM was by design. Here's A and

596
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:08,480
Speaker 1: TM casting producer Raphael dr ball. Again, this is.

597
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 18: Certain formula that you that's a comfort, that's the reason

598
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:14,760
Speaker 18: why you tune in and get excited to watch. And

599
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 18: I think the most exciting thing about Top Model was

600
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:21,040
Speaker 18: you always obviously had a different cast that was very

601
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 18: different from the last, but you also kind of always

602
00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 18: got that same formula as well. So you know, you

603
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 18: always got like the country girl guy, you know, who's

604
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 18: in the middle of nowhere, who has no modeling experience whatsoever.

605
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:37,280
Speaker 18: Then you got like the hot jock that was thrown

606
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 18: in there, who's super confident and whatever.

607
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:41,480
Speaker 5: And maybe the beauty queen.

608
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 18: You know, you got the girl who's like did every

609
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 18: pageant and you fil them all together and like like,

610
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 18: how is this going to work? You know, that's what

611
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:51,760
Speaker 18: makes it interesting to watch and fun, and that's what

612
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:52,440
Speaker 18: we looked for.

613
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:56,520
Speaker 1: Remember Brittany from cycle four, the one Michelle Mott called

614
00:32:56,560 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 1: Green Skirt Well on her season, she was loud, she

615
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:03,240
Speaker 1: liked to have fun, and she liked to drink, sometimes

616
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 1: to the detriment of her competition performance. There was a

617
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 1: challenge where the models had to interact with representatives from

618
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:12,920
Speaker 1: Cover Girl at a party. In the episode, Brittany seemed

619
00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:15,880
Speaker 1: more interested in getting drunk than actually impressing the people

620
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 1: from Cover Girl, or at least that's how the producers

621
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:23,000
Speaker 1: made it look. They were developing a character. Brittany was

622
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:25,760
Speaker 1: the party girl. There's people from magazines.

623
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 18: I want to try one of those things El magazines

624
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:29,960
Speaker 18: comes holid in.

625
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:34,280
Speaker 1: Oh that's a drink I had. Then there was another

626
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:37,040
Speaker 1: time when the models went out and Brittany got wasted.

627
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:41,320
Speaker 1: She was dancing on the table. But Brittany wasn't the

628
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 1: only one who got drunk that day. UV Gomez told

629
00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 1: me she did too, And.

630
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:49,920
Speaker 14: We were all at this cute little restaurant and I

631
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:56,240
Speaker 14: drank too much and didn't eat at all, and I was.

632
00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 1: Like, ooh, I'm not feeling good.

633
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:02,440
Speaker 14: And I think the producers saw that, and they pulled

634
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:05,240
Speaker 14: me to the side and they like snuffed me out

635
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:08,399
Speaker 14: because they already had the drunk girl. There couldn't be two,

636
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 14: so they completely edited all of that out. I even

637
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:16,799
Speaker 14: think I might have gotten sick, but they were like

638
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:22,040
Speaker 14: protecting me, like guarded the bathroom, told me to turn

639
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:26,280
Speaker 14: my mic off. They just didn't want to film any

640
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 14: of that because they had Brittany.

641
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:32,840
Speaker 1: Producers liked their characters to be neat. It helps the

642
00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:36,240
Speaker 1: audience follow the storyline. We weren't watching A and TM

643
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:39,160
Speaker 1: because we wanted to see complicated characters wrestling with their

644
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:41,759
Speaker 1: inner natures. If we wanted that, we could have turned

645
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:47,600
Speaker 1: to HBO. I asked Brittany if that drunk party girl

646
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:50,680
Speaker 1: character followed her after the show, if it hurt her

647
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:54,080
Speaker 1: chances in the industry, and she said it didn't really

648
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:58,640
Speaker 1: affect her, But Sharon wasn't so lucky. In addition to

649
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:02,440
Speaker 1: meeting country girls, jocks, and party girls, A and TM

650
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:07,359
Speaker 1: needed villains. The characters we laugh act, not with the

651
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:10,680
Speaker 1: ones we love to hate. Sharan had been told to

652
00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:13,680
Speaker 1: play up her confidence, but on screen it came across

653
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 1: as annoying. Remember I told you Sharon's mom taught her

654
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:21,000
Speaker 1: to say affirmations. Sharon always wanted to be on A

655
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:24,000
Speaker 1: and TM, so at home, her mother would tell her

656
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:27,560
Speaker 1: you are America's next top model. My mom taught me

657
00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:32,120
Speaker 1: a version of this, naming it and claiming it. Producers

658
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:33,840
Speaker 1: thought it would be a good idea to have Sharon

659
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 1: repeat that mantra once she got into the house. It's

660
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:40,759
Speaker 1: one thing to have your mom tell you you're going

661
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:43,799
Speaker 1: to be America's next top Model. Baby, it's another thing

662
00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:46,640
Speaker 1: to keep repeating it to everyone you meet. On the

663
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:49,719
Speaker 1: first episode of a show where everyone also thinks they're

664
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:51,480
Speaker 1: going to be America's next top model.

665
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:54,040
Speaker 12: I believe I am america Start top Model.

666
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:56,480
Speaker 1: I won't get this. I want this so bad, so.

667
00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:58,720
Speaker 12: Let me start my introducing Myself's my name is Sharon,

668
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:00,960
Speaker 12: I am as next top Model.

669
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:02,319
Speaker 13: I really, my.

670
00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:05,320
Speaker 12: Name is Sharon, and I am America's next top model.

671
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:06,919
Speaker 18: Oh christ and this stuff that I can I ask

672
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:08,440
Speaker 18: you the m because you have it all in the bags.

673
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:11,720
Speaker 8: Yes, very confident with myself, but I don't want anybody

674
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 8: to read it as like being cocky or arrogant.

675
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:17,279
Speaker 1: But kaki and arrogant was exactly how she came off.

676
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:21,040
Speaker 1: Sharan gave the producers what they wanted, but the character

677
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:23,240
Speaker 1: they'd created for her wasn't likable.

678
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:27,440
Speaker 11: Oh Searon, she's always wild and over the top and

679
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:28,080
Speaker 11: get crazy.

680
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:31,360
Speaker 2: I find that kind of propulsive and most girls.

681
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:35,800
Speaker 1: Producers were setting Sharan up to be the season's first villain.

682
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:39,280
Speaker 1: They already laid the foundation of her being cocky and annoying.

683
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:45,840
Speaker 1: They drove it home by making her a bully. You

684
00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:49,040
Speaker 1: already know reality TV producers often stir the pot to

685
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:53,200
Speaker 1: get drama going between cast members. Cycle eleven, the cycle

686
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:57,360
Speaker 1: Sharan was on, featured A and TM's first openly trans contestant.

687
00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:00,560
Speaker 1: Her name is Isis. We're going to talk about the

688
00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:03,600
Speaker 1: way A and TM handled gender identity later on in

689
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 1: this season. For now, we're going to focus on the

690
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:10,279
Speaker 1: storyline between Isis and Sharon. And I'll say this, the

691
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:13,160
Speaker 1: situation we saw on the show did not make Sharan

692
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 1: look good. Cycle eleven premiered in two thousand and eight.

693
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:20,960
Speaker 1: The way society talks about gender identity and trans people

694
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:24,120
Speaker 1: today still isn't great, but two thousand and eight might

695
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:27,080
Speaker 1: as well have been the stone age. On the first episode,

696
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:30,120
Speaker 1: when it was revealed that Isis is trans, some of

697
00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:32,920
Speaker 1: the girls in the house were uncomfortable. Some of them

698
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:36,680
Speaker 1: were downright mean. A group of girls were portrayed as

699
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:40,440
Speaker 1: bullying Isis, and Sharon was in that group. The first

700
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:43,400
Speaker 1: photoshoot of the season was a voting shoot. Remember it

701
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:45,840
Speaker 1: was two thousand and eight. When it was their turn,

702
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 1: each model had to look sexy at the ballot booth

703
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:51,600
Speaker 1: with the wind machine blowing in their face. Peek A

704
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:54,840
Speaker 1: and TM a group of models were staged in Isis's

705
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 1: shoot behind the booth as if they were spying on her.

706
00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:02,480
Speaker 1: Sharon was in that group of models and Jessa heads up,

707
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 1: this isn't nice to hear.

708
00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:06,680
Speaker 3: So obviously you have the street that is see true.

709
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:09,520
Speaker 3: You got the cameras, so you have no privacy and

710
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 3: you guys are still spying on her. Remember you're in

711
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:12,520
Speaker 3: the shot.

712
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:15,600
Speaker 8: That's the funniest thing that's in my head, like trying

713
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:17,759
Speaker 8: to be said, reality.

714
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:22,600
Speaker 1: Is she's a man. That was Sharon who said reality

715
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:26,280
Speaker 1: is she's a man and a cut In confessional, Sharon

716
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:29,080
Speaker 1: and the other models made jokes about Isis. They caught

717
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:31,719
Speaker 1: her sweaty and said she looked Harry, but in the

718
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:35,479
Speaker 1: scene it's unclear who's saying what. Either way, it made

719
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:38,440
Speaker 1: Searan look like the ring leader. She came across as

720
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:41,839
Speaker 1: a mean bully. But according to Sharon, what we saw

721
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 1: on the show isn't the full picture.

722
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:46,000
Speaker 13: Ices was doing her photo shoot and we were behind

723
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:46,720
Speaker 13: the photo booths.

724
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:50,480
Speaker 20: First of all, we were placed there, and so they

725
00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:54,640
Speaker 20: hands picked all of ironically the black and brown girls

726
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:58,600
Speaker 20: to go on her photo shoot, and they placed us

727
00:38:58,680 --> 00:38:59,680
Speaker 20: behind her.

728
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:02,880
Speaker 1: Word she was shooting, there was one white model.

729
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:06,680
Speaker 8: They did that to make that scene as if she

730
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:09,640
Speaker 8: was being taunted and bullied during her shoot.

731
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:12,400
Speaker 1: Sharon says they were standing there for a long time

732
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:14,799
Speaker 1: and they started to crack your mama jokes on each other,

733
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:19,719
Speaker 1: including isis. It was immature, for sure, but Charon swears

734
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:21,720
Speaker 1: they weren't just picking on isis.

735
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:25,439
Speaker 20: When you cut out one portion of it and only

736
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:26,879
Speaker 20: show another portion.

737
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 8: Of it, it looks like something that is not. And

738
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:32,440
Speaker 8: now the whole world thinks that all of those girls,

739
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:34,880
Speaker 8: black and brown girls that were back there our caddy,

740
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:38,279
Speaker 8: our gossiping, our taunted, when it was actually the opposite.

741
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:41,919
Speaker 1: It didn't just make them look like bullies. It made

742
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:45,440
Speaker 1: them look like bigots, because that's the plot line A

743
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 1: and TM wanted. Later in that same episode, we see

744
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:53,960
Speaker 1: Sharon's confessional and she appears to be ranting about isis isis.

745
00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:55,960
Speaker 8: Is over the time, America's next top model is not

746
00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:56,919
Speaker 8: going to be a drag queen.

747
00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:02,320
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, it's not That's the line we all remember.

748
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:06,200
Speaker 1: Sharan By she told me that behind the scenes, producers

749
00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:08,719
Speaker 1: asked her a question and told her to repeat it

750
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:09,640
Speaker 1: back to them.

751
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:12,360
Speaker 8: I was asked, what do you think about a drag

752
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:14,640
Speaker 8: queen being America's next top model.

753
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:18,040
Speaker 13: But when you're asked a question in a way, you're

754
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 13: told you have to repeat the question back.

755
00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:24,520
Speaker 1: That's pretty standard in these reality TV confessionals. If so,

756
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:27,879
Speaker 1: producers can cut their questions and the contestants' answers will

757
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:32,120
Speaker 1: still make sense. Sharon says she didn't voluntarily call Isis

758
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:35,799
Speaker 1: a drag queen. She was asked do you think America's

759
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:38,719
Speaker 1: next top model will be a drag queen? And then

760
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:41,879
Speaker 1: asked to repeat her answer in a neutral and sassy way.

761
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:46,520
Speaker 1: She says the producers chose her sassy response. Sharan told

762
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:48,480
Speaker 1: me that if she was asked to do this today,

763
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:52,160
Speaker 1: she would say no, She'd tell them Isis is a woman,

764
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:55,480
Speaker 1: not a drag queen. But this was filmed twenty years

765
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:58,280
Speaker 1: ago when Sharan was still in high school. She didn't

766
00:40:58,320 --> 00:40:59,960
Speaker 1: have the understanding she has now.

767
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:03,160
Speaker 13: If I have the knowledge to correct them and correct

768
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:05,759
Speaker 13: how I referred to her in that moment, then I

769
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:09,640
Speaker 13: would have. But I did it. I was a young girl.

770
00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:12,719
Speaker 8: I ain't know no better, and I was also kind

771
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:15,799
Speaker 8: of prompted to answer the question in such a way.

772
00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:22,560
Speaker 1: This scene of Sharon bullying Isis put the nail in

773
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:26,680
Speaker 1: her coffin. She was already annoying and arrogant. Now she

774
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:29,440
Speaker 1: was being mean, and to top it all off, she

775
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:31,640
Speaker 1: bombed when it was her time in front of the camera.

776
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:35,520
Speaker 3: Hey Sean, it's looking a little convoluted.

777
00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:39,880
Speaker 5: And in a way, it's not pretty.

778
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:44,160
Speaker 1: On that episode, during the elimination, when Tyra announced the

779
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:46,880
Speaker 1: girls who would go to the next round, Isis was

780
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:50,720
Speaker 1: called out second, which is pretty high praise. Sharon, however,

781
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:53,839
Speaker 1: was sent home packing. It was the same day as

782
00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:56,040
Speaker 1: the high school graduation she'd missed to be on a

783
00:41:56,120 --> 00:42:00,319
Speaker 1: and TM. Sharon was devastated, but she cheered herself up

784
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:03,880
Speaker 1: even though she went home early. She'd beaten out thousands

785
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:06,719
Speaker 1: of girls and made it on her favorite show. The

786
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:09,880
Speaker 1: real depression didn't kick in until weeks later, when she

787
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:11,239
Speaker 1: saw her ended on television.

788
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:14,759
Speaker 13: My family threw a watch party, and so we all

789
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:18,080
Speaker 13: got together, I like my uncle's house, and everybody was

790
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:19,880
Speaker 13: so excited, and we made a big event and a

791
00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:22,160
Speaker 13: big party out of it. And I was excited to because

792
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:24,600
Speaker 13: never did across my mind that things would be, you know,

793
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:26,080
Speaker 13: edited in such a way.

794
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 8: I didn't know that I was eliminated early on, and

795
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:30,560
Speaker 8: I know that my family and stuff didn't know that,

796
00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:32,160
Speaker 8: so that was maybe a little nervous about that.

797
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:35,799
Speaker 13: But as everything started airing, initially they would shelby and

798
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:37,160
Speaker 13: we'd be like, yeah, that's.

799
00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:42,320
Speaker 8: And then as they kept going on, sargiest, silent, silent,

800
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:44,840
Speaker 8: and I could feel the energy in the room.

801
00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:46,280
Speaker 13: My heart dropped.

802
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:49,759
Speaker 1: Sharan found out with the rest of the world and

803
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:53,000
Speaker 1: a room filled with her family and friends that she

804
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:55,600
Speaker 1: was Cycle eleven's first villain.

805
00:42:57,160 --> 00:43:00,480
Speaker 8: And it was a very kind of like ten situation

806
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:02,440
Speaker 8: since in the air, and it.

807
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:07,400
Speaker 13: Was very confusing. You're questioning reality or you're questioning what happened,

808
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:11,320
Speaker 13: and you're questioning your truth and what you knew also happened.

809
00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:14,120
Speaker 13: And it was heartbreaking because it wasn't a true reflection

810
00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:15,600
Speaker 13: of who I was.

811
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:19,720
Speaker 1: It didn't matter to A and TM producers who Charon

812
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:24,239
Speaker 1: really was, because Charon was a character in a story.

813
00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:27,160
Speaker 1: It was a story of an over confident bully who

814
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:29,480
Speaker 1: gets what's coming to her when she flops in the

815
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:32,720
Speaker 1: first photo shoot and is eliminated. It was a tidy

816
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:35,280
Speaker 1: character arc that started the season off.

817
00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:35,720
Speaker 5: With a bang.

818
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:39,040
Speaker 1: We have no way of knowing if Sharon was sent

819
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:41,800
Speaker 1: home that week because she actually had the worst photo,

820
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:45,239
Speaker 1: or if she was sent home because that made the

821
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:49,200
Speaker 1: best story. And that's because a lot of what we

822
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:51,480
Speaker 1: saw on A and TM was an illusion.

823
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:54,759
Speaker 16: I've heard producers talk where they were like, Yeah, this

824
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:57,799
Speaker 16: girl's boring, she's terrible TV. What do we want to do?

825
00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:00,800
Speaker 16: Photo shoot? You know, every thing is still on the

826
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:04,480
Speaker 16: up and up. Maybe their photo that's chosen is not the.

827
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:06,480
Speaker 5: Best photo, is not their best photo.

828
00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:12,520
Speaker 1: After the break, you'll hear how the producers created the

829
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:25,120
Speaker 1: version of reality we saw on the show. Reality competition

830
00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:28,400
Speaker 1: shows are not always there. That was certainly true on

831
00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:31,880
Speaker 1: A and TM. What made the show entertaining wasn't just

832
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:35,319
Speaker 1: the photo shoots. It was the drama, the personalities the

833
00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:39,120
Speaker 1: models brought to the set. But the best models didn't

834
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:43,080
Speaker 1: always make the best reality TV. So producers had a

835
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:46,040
Speaker 1: way of getting rid of contestants who weren't entertaining enough.

836
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:48,280
Speaker 1: Here's hown mixer Jose Taurus.

837
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:51,319
Speaker 16: I've heard producers talk where they were like, Yeah, this

838
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:54,360
Speaker 16: girl's boring, she's terrible TV. What do we want to do?

839
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:55,440
Speaker 1: Photo shoot?

840
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:57,920
Speaker 16: You know, everything is still on the up and up.

841
00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:01,800
Speaker 16: Maybe their photo that's chosen is not the best photo

842
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:03,600
Speaker 16: is not their best photo.

843
00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:07,239
Speaker 1: That's why so many of y'all's fades were getting sent home.

844
00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:11,799
Speaker 1: Early producers had the right to use creative license in

845
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:15,560
Speaker 1: tailor and competition how they fawt fit, meaning the most

846
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:20,440
Speaker 1: talented model didn't always win. Oftentimes the person with the

847
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:25,960
Speaker 1: best story or best TV personality did. When someone wasn't

848
00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:29,000
Speaker 1: delivering what the producers needed to make good TV, or

849
00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:32,200
Speaker 1: when the producers were done with their storyline, they would

850
00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:35,520
Speaker 1: pick a model's worst photo and say it was their best.

851
00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:41,000
Speaker 1: I asked ANTM creative producer Andrew Patterson about this. Was

852
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:45,000
Speaker 1: it always the best person winning? And was it always

853
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:46,600
Speaker 1: the worst person being sent home?

854
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:49,360
Speaker 5: Hena, Hena.

855
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:55,240
Speaker 1: Now, I'm not saying every elimination was predetermined for the plot.

856
00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 1: Producers couldn't manipulate everything. You still had to be a

857
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:03,560
Speaker 1: talent in order to progress in the competition. It's just

858
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:07,719
Speaker 1: that the talented models who also had interesting personalities or

859
00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:10,520
Speaker 1: the best stories were usually the ones who made it

860
00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:12,879
Speaker 1: to the finale. And when it was time to get

861
00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:16,520
Speaker 1: rid of a lackluster contestant, producers had other ways of

862
00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:20,759
Speaker 1: tipping the scales. I asked casting producer Raphael d'Orval how

863
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:22,960
Speaker 1: that worked. He didn't want to give me an example

864
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:26,520
Speaker 1: from A and Tom, so he used RuPaul's drag Race

865
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:27,200
Speaker 1: to explain.

866
00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:31,040
Speaker 18: Let's say you're a contestant on Roopuol's drug Race, right

867
00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:36,280
Speaker 18: and let's say, for what are reason you're not rising

868
00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:39,239
Speaker 18: to the occasion on the show, and you're just not

869
00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:43,720
Speaker 18: stepping up as an interesting personality on the show right now,

870
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:47,279
Speaker 18: if you're just falling flat and producers are freaking out,

871
00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:49,240
Speaker 18: They're like, oh God, we gotta got.

872
00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:52,480
Speaker 5: Read this person. They're bringing the whole show down now

873
00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:54,120
Speaker 5: we know about this person.

874
00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:59,200
Speaker 18: So when you're vetting these people who listen, let's just say,

875
00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:01,600
Speaker 18: and there's always a season, whether it's somebody who doesn't

876
00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:02,320
Speaker 18: know how to sew.

877
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:06,000
Speaker 1: He's referring to sewing challenges. Drag Race is also a

878
00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:11,080
Speaker 1: competition reality show. Contestants are expected to perform, dance, sing, act,

879
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:15,920
Speaker 1: and occasionally sew their own costumes. Every contestant has their strengths,

880
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:19,160
Speaker 1: but inevitably there's always some queen on the show who

881
00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:20,800
Speaker 1: doesn't even know how to thread a needle.

882
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:24,040
Speaker 18: So if you're going on the show and you don't

883
00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:26,880
Speaker 18: know how to sew, it's going to be very difficult

884
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:29,560
Speaker 18: for you if there's a challenge that you have to

885
00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:32,919
Speaker 18: sew not one, not two, but three different outfits, which

886
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:37,480
Speaker 18: has happened on the show. So let's just say the

887
00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:41,759
Speaker 18: powers that bio like, Ooh, this girl's rough. She's killing us.

888
00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:44,400
Speaker 18: This is not going to work. So I'm trying to

889
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:47,759
Speaker 18: get rid of Brittany. I guess our next challenge has

890
00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:52,200
Speaker 18: to be a sewing challenge. Maybe we're on episode four,

891
00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:55,839
Speaker 18: and maybe the big sewing challenge wasn't supposed to happen

892
00:47:55,920 --> 00:48:00,319
Speaker 18: until episode six, was switching up the game, and now

893
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:04,400
Speaker 18: we're making the sewing challenge episode four, So there's always

894
00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:07,759
Speaker 18: ways to kind of do what you need to do.

895
00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:11,920
Speaker 1: For whatever reason, Rafael didn't want to spill the t

896
00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:15,520
Speaker 1: on A and TM. Maybe he's a Tyra Banks loyalist.

897
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:19,120
Speaker 1: Maybe he's still under his NBA. But in case you're

898
00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:23,320
Speaker 1: having trouble deciphering his drag Race riddle, Rafael is saying

899
00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:26,680
Speaker 1: A and TM had a way of producing the results

900
00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:32,280
Speaker 1: they wanted in the competition. Producers designed the photo shoots

901
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:36,200
Speaker 1: and runways. They also knew the contestants' weaknesses. So if

902
00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:38,799
Speaker 1: there was a boring model who took decent pictures but

903
00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:43,120
Speaker 1: had a horrible runway walk. Surprise, surprise, that runway date

904
00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:47,279
Speaker 1: plan for week eight is happening today. The boring model

905
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:49,720
Speaker 1: would trip over her heels and get sent home promptly

906
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:52,240
Speaker 1: by the judges, and they didn't even have to select

907
00:48:52,239 --> 00:48:55,120
Speaker 1: her worst photo to get rid of her. I'm not

908
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:58,279
Speaker 1: trying to make the producers sound like evil masterminds who

909
00:48:58,400 --> 00:49:01,840
Speaker 1: wanted to torture and sabotage them models. They were doing

910
00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:05,719
Speaker 1: their jobs, creating a show that was entertaining and memorable.

911
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:09,640
Speaker 1: I've said it before and I'll say it again. Watching

912
00:49:09,719 --> 00:49:13,879
Speaker 1: twelve perfectly nice and talented models compete in intimate photoshoots

913
00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:17,919
Speaker 1: and realistic runways would have been boring. It was fun

914
00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:21,840
Speaker 1: to watch Brittany drink and dance on tables. It's riveting

915
00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:24,200
Speaker 1: to see a bunch of scared models hanging off the

916
00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:27,239
Speaker 1: side of a seven hundred foot building. It was satisfying

917
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:32,160
Speaker 1: to see Sharon get eliminated first. Before the contestants, it

918
00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:36,400
Speaker 1: was a different story. They knew the show would be edited. However,

919
00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:38,759
Speaker 1: most of them thought they would get a fair shake

920
00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:42,080
Speaker 1: in the competition, but A and TM used them like

921
00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:45,840
Speaker 1: pieces on a chessboard. There were heroes and villains, and

922
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:48,600
Speaker 1: the producers moved them around or knocked them off the

923
00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:53,880
Speaker 1: board to fit the story they wanted to tell. Here's

924
00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:55,600
Speaker 1: sound mixer Jose Torres.

925
00:49:56,480 --> 00:50:01,200
Speaker 16: Top model. Honestly, a lot of those were just like

926
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:04,480
Speaker 16: cogs in the machine. You know, they got looked at

927
00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:09,640
Speaker 16: as there were a commodity, there were a product. They

928
00:50:09,640 --> 00:50:11,520
Speaker 16: were brought on to be part of a TV show.

929
00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:15,000
Speaker 16: If they had a good experience, great, and if they didn't,

930
00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:19,000
Speaker 16: that's a shame, you know, it's too bad. That was

931
00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:20,440
Speaker 16: the mentality.

932
00:50:20,560 --> 00:50:23,160
Speaker 1: Being a contestant on A and TM meant you might

933
00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:25,480
Speaker 1: get dangled off the side of a building, thrown in

934
00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:27,880
Speaker 1: a pool of water, or on top of a Greek salad.

935
00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:30,440
Speaker 1: You might be made to look like a drunk or

936
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:33,400
Speaker 1: a villain. But it was supposed to all be worth

937
00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:39,759
Speaker 1: it because even if you didn't win, you got a portfolio.

938
00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:44,400
Speaker 1: Aspiring models often paid thousands of dollars to get professional

939
00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:48,359
Speaker 1: photos they could send out to agents. Your portfolio could

940
00:50:48,440 --> 00:50:52,040
Speaker 1: jump start your career. Here's Tyra talking to the contestants

941
00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:54,040
Speaker 1: about the power of a good portfolio.

942
00:50:55,239 --> 00:50:58,239
Speaker 21: I booked twenty five fashion shows in Paris off of one, two,

943
00:50:58,680 --> 00:51:02,439
Speaker 21: three photo, So you have four seen how.

944
00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:02,880
Speaker 8: A leg up?

945
00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:07,120
Speaker 1: Okay, Tyra Poppins. But the point is, the promise of

946
00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:10,160
Speaker 1: the portfolio is why a lot of these women allowed

947
00:51:10,160 --> 00:51:12,520
Speaker 1: themselves to be dangled off the side of a building

948
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:16,160
Speaker 1: or covered in live bees, because if they could look

949
00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:19,839
Speaker 1: fierce while they did it, that photo could be their

950
00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:23,759
Speaker 1: golden ticket. But after they were eliminated, a lot of

951
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:27,440
Speaker 1: contestants found out their A and TM portfolio was a

952
00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:31,799
Speaker 1: glorified coffee table book. They were a joke to modeling agencies.

953
00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:34,279
Speaker 1: Here's Kenya Hill from cycle four.

954
00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:36,759
Speaker 6: I already knew by the time it ended like this

955
00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:43,440
Speaker 6: is a TV show, but I was expecting the modeling

956
00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:46,400
Speaker 6: industry to embrace me with open arms because this is

957
00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:48,000
Speaker 6: America's Next Top Model.

958
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:51,080
Speaker 1: After the show, Kenya moved to New York, ready to

959
00:51:51,120 --> 00:51:54,040
Speaker 1: take on the industry A and TM photos in hand.

960
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:56,719
Speaker 1: But like a lot of the models I've spoken to,

961
00:51:57,120 --> 00:51:58,560
Speaker 1: she was in for it rude awakening.

962
00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:02,680
Speaker 6: I couldn't even used my portfolio from America's Next Top

963
00:52:02,680 --> 00:52:06,040
Speaker 6: Model in my actual portfolio because the pictures from the

964
00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:10,040
Speaker 6: show were so over the top, so overly edited, overly styled,

965
00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:15,000
Speaker 6: overly made up, it was for TV. Real modeling portfolios

966
00:52:15,040 --> 00:52:19,800
Speaker 6: didn't look like how our pictures looked. The retouching was insane.

967
00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:23,200
Speaker 6: That is not how photos actually look in magazines.

968
00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:27,120
Speaker 1: Kenya eventually became a working model, but she had to

969
00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:30,640
Speaker 1: build her career herself. These days, she coaches new models

970
00:52:30,640 --> 00:52:33,000
Speaker 1: who are trying to break into the industry. She says

971
00:52:33,000 --> 00:52:34,719
Speaker 1: this her mission to give them more than A and

972
00:52:34,719 --> 00:52:42,640
Speaker 1: TM gave her. Before Kenya was cast on ANTM, she'd

973
00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:45,440
Speaker 1: been a fan, and she fully bought into the premise.

974
00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:48,880
Speaker 1: She thought A and TM was really a competition to

975
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:52,480
Speaker 1: find and make the best model. As a teenager, I

976
00:52:52,520 --> 00:52:55,880
Speaker 1: did too, I think we all did. But once Kenya

977
00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:59,000
Speaker 1: left Top Model and launched her career, she realized the

978
00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:02,560
Speaker 1: show wasn't it all like the real modeling industry.

979
00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:07,160
Speaker 6: The average person watching the show would be, oh, yep,

980
00:53:07,200 --> 00:53:08,120
Speaker 6: that's a photo.

981
00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:11,000
Speaker 21: Shoot, that's the modeling industry, and so I think like

982
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:15,879
Speaker 21: the entire country took that as Yep, this is real.

983
00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:18,960
Speaker 21: This is the modeling industry through and through, and it's

984
00:53:19,040 --> 00:53:20,440
Speaker 21: just not true.

985
00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:23,319
Speaker 6: It's just not the case. So much of it was

986
00:53:23,440 --> 00:53:26,640
Speaker 6: just TV. It was pure entertainment.

987
00:53:27,080 --> 00:53:31,560
Speaker 1: And something America found very entertaining were racist stereotypes and

988
00:53:31,680 --> 00:53:34,239
Speaker 1: A and TM was among the best to ever do it.

989
00:53:35,120 --> 00:53:40,600
Speaker 1: That's what we'll get into on the next episode. Thanks

990
00:53:40,640 --> 00:53:43,000
Speaker 1: for listening to the Curse of America's Next Top Model.

991
00:53:43,520 --> 00:53:46,400
Speaker 1: We really appreciate the support. We'd love for you to

992
00:53:46,640 --> 00:53:49,239
Speaker 1: really show your support by subscribing to our show on

993
00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:52,200
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts and don't forget to leave us a five

994
00:53:52,239 --> 00:53:55,279
Speaker 1: star rating and review. If you love the show, tell

995
00:53:55,280 --> 00:53:58,240
Speaker 1: your group, chat, your co workers, your friends, your mama

996
00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:01,239
Speaker 1: to check us out, and if you jo maybe keep

997
00:54:01,239 --> 00:54:04,480
Speaker 1: that one to yourself. Thanks again to all of our listeners.

998
00:54:05,239 --> 00:54:07,640
Speaker 1: The Curse of America's Next Top Model is a production

999
00:54:07,719 --> 00:54:11,040
Speaker 1: of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group, in

1000
00:54:11,080 --> 00:54:15,400
Speaker 1: partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by

1001
00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:19,240
Speaker 1: Nancy Glass, hosted and senior produced by me Bridget Armstrong.

1002
00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:23,600
Speaker 1: Our story editor is Monique Leboard, also produced by Ben

1003
00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:29,200
Speaker 1: Fetterman and Andrea Denning. Associate producers are Alisha Key, Kristin Melcurrie,

1004
00:54:29,360 --> 00:54:33,920
Speaker 1: and Curry Richmond. Consulting producers are Oliver TwixT and Kate Taylor.

1005
00:54:34,400 --> 00:54:38,480
Speaker 1: Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Kriincheck. Audio

1006
00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:41,520
Speaker 1: editing and mixing by Andrew Callaway and Matt del Vecchio.

1007
00:54:42,080 --> 00:54:44,600
Speaker 1: The Curse of America's Next Top Model theme music was

1008
00:54:44,600 --> 00:54:49,000
Speaker 1: composed by Oliver Bains. Music library provided by mid Music.

1009
00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:53,520
Speaker 1: Special thanks to everyone we interviewed for this podcast, especially

1010
00:54:53,520 --> 00:54:56,920
Speaker 1: the models for sharing their stories. And For more podcasts

1011
00:54:56,920 --> 00:55:01,319
Speaker 1: from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app podcast or wherever you

1012
00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:04,960
Speaker 1: get your podcasts. Also check out the Glass podcast Instagram

1013
00:55:05,480 --> 00:55:08,759
Speaker 1: at Glass Podcasts for Curse of America's Next Top Model,

1014
00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:10,520
Speaker 1: behind the scenes content and more.