WEBVTT - Bloomberg Businessweek Weekend - February 7th, 2025 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:07.240 Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. 0:00:08.760 --> 0:00:12.800 This is Bloomberg Business Week Insight from the reporters and 0:00:12.960 --> 0:00:16.960 editors that bring you America's most trusted business magazine, plus 0:00:17.160 --> 0:00:20.959 global business, finance and tech news. The Bloomberg Business Week 0:00:20.960 --> 0:00:25.759 Podcast with Carol Masser and Tim Stenoveek on Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:26.840 --> 0:00:29.760 Hi, everyone, Welcome to the Bloomberg Business Week Weekend Podcast. 0:00:30.200 --> 0:00:33.440 Another busy week with investors contemplating the impact of US 0:00:33.560 --> 0:00:36.680 tariffs against its biggest trading partners, end of the role 0:00:36.720 --> 0:00:39.840 of Elon in the US government. It was a week 0:00:39.840 --> 0:00:43.760 two with a lot of earnings as Alphabet, Amazon, AMDARM, 0:00:43.960 --> 0:00:48.000 quoncom Ford, and Uber were among those that reported it 0:00:48.080 --> 0:00:48.960 kept us pretty busy. 0:00:49.159 --> 0:00:51.720 We also got another big read Friday on the US 0:00:51.840 --> 0:00:54.000 jobs market. All of the details can be found on 0:00:54.040 --> 0:00:57.160 the Bloomberg terminal and at Bloomberg dot com. You add 0:00:57.200 --> 0:00:59.400 it up and you've got a lot coming at financial 0:00:59.440 --> 0:01:02.080 markets and at leaders. So this hour we're going to 0:01:02.080 --> 0:01:04.959 get an update on trust of government, business media, and 0:01:05.040 --> 0:01:08.080 more with the CEO of the global pr and communications 0:01:08.080 --> 0:01:08.919 company Edelman. 0:01:09.160 --> 0:01:12.160 Plus we mentioned Elon a look at how his government 0:01:12.200 --> 0:01:14.800 takeover has been as swift as it has been chaotic, 0:01:15.319 --> 0:01:19.119 and understanding the possible land and resource grabs of President 0:01:19.200 --> 0:01:20.800 Trump's geopolitical plays. 0:01:21.280 --> 0:01:23.000 All of that to come. We begin, though, with the 0:01:23.040 --> 0:01:27.240 importance of trust, as political polarization and growing class divisions 0:01:27.480 --> 0:01:31.080 have led to a widespread loss of trust in large institutions. 0:01:31.480 --> 0:01:34.480 According to the Edelman Trust Barometer, now in its twenty 0:01:34.480 --> 0:01:38.000 fifth year, sixty one percent of respondents now hold grievances 0:01:38.000 --> 0:01:39.959 against government, business, and the rich. 0:01:40.200 --> 0:01:42.720 To help us understand the report's findings, we spoke with 0:01:42.880 --> 0:01:45.760 Edelman CEO, Richard Edelman, who had just returned from the 0:01:45.760 --> 0:01:48.480 World Economic Form in Davas, and there he got the 0:01:48.520 --> 0:01:50.240 pulse of global business leaders. 0:01:50.920 --> 0:01:54.800 So I think the American CEOs were quite bullish. They felt, 0:01:54.880 --> 0:01:59.280 you know, deregulation, lower taxes, a chance to you know, 0:02:00.160 --> 0:02:04.840 increase investment. Meanwhile, the European CEOs felt deeply depressed and 0:02:04.880 --> 0:02:07.800 they were nervous about trade, they were nervous about regulation. 0:02:07.920 --> 0:02:10.280 I heard one CEO tell me he has thirty five 0:02:10.360 --> 0:02:13.400 thousand data points to give to the EU on environmental 0:02:13.440 --> 0:02:18.919 regulation every year, and that's a huge burden. So also 0:02:19.440 --> 0:02:21.520 I would say it was a very business like Davos, 0:02:22.000 --> 0:02:25.240 you know, Other than Trump's last day appearance and Malay 0:02:25.280 --> 0:02:28.320 of Argentina. There were very few government leaders, so it 0:02:28.360 --> 0:02:30.000 was a much more business like Davos. 0:02:30.560 --> 0:02:32.639 It's interesting that you say that you're probably the second 0:02:32.639 --> 0:02:35.560 person to tell us that the mood of European CEOs 0:02:35.720 --> 0:02:36.480 was pretty gloomy. 0:02:37.440 --> 0:02:40.280 Well, they're gloomy because I think they feel trapped between 0:02:40.320 --> 0:02:43.360 the US and China. They have big sales in China, cars, 0:02:43.360 --> 0:02:47.200 et cetera. Their energy costs are high, their regulation is high, 0:02:47.520 --> 0:02:52.600 and frankly, they're nervous about the German economy, the French economy, 0:02:52.680 --> 0:02:55.919 both of them wobbling along. So they don't have domestic 0:02:55.960 --> 0:02:57.280 demand like the US does. 0:02:58.240 --> 0:03:03.000 So it's interesting, as you know, we navigate from day 0:03:03.040 --> 0:03:05.239 to day, hour to hour the headlines that come out 0:03:05.240 --> 0:03:08.320 of the White House in the Oval Office, and so 0:03:08.600 --> 0:03:12.760 I am curious was there a perspective among the global 0:03:12.800 --> 0:03:16.079 CEOs are more importantly the American CEOs, that it's kind 0:03:16.080 --> 0:03:17.920 of a wait and see that we think some of 0:03:17.960 --> 0:03:22.600 it is a lot of talk, and that ultimately, as 0:03:22.639 --> 0:03:25.280 you said, policies will make business sense and they might 0:03:25.280 --> 0:03:28.360 not be as extreme as some of the conversations around 0:03:28.360 --> 0:03:28.680 them are. 0:03:29.880 --> 0:03:31.040 I think you can tell me I'm wrong. 0:03:31.120 --> 0:03:34.800 No, no, look, I think our trust barometer came out 0:03:35.160 --> 0:03:38.680 in time for Davos. And the thing that was so noteworthy, Carol, 0:03:38.800 --> 0:03:41.800 is that we see the world slipping into grievance, and 0:03:41.840 --> 0:03:44.280 then sixty percent of the world's moderate or high grievance, 0:03:44.360 --> 0:03:47.320 and especially in Germany, thirty five percent of people highly 0:03:47.320 --> 0:03:51.280 agrieve just before their elections. And why is that? It's inflation, 0:03:51.800 --> 0:03:54.800 it's the sense that my family won't be better off 0:03:54.800 --> 0:03:59.000 in the next generation, lack of hope, fear of job loss, 0:03:59.000 --> 0:04:02.560 to AI and so I think business has every way 0:04:02.600 --> 0:04:04.880 to solve this. You know, give me a good job, 0:04:04.960 --> 0:04:09.560 reskill me, have affordable products. That's the playbook. And CEOs 0:04:09.920 --> 0:04:12.480 need to make sure that it's about their business. 0:04:13.320 --> 0:04:15.800 Why do you think we see this happening around the world? 0:04:16.640 --> 0:04:18.719 You know, it's not This idea of grievance is not 0:04:19.720 --> 0:04:22.800 particular to one single country or one single region. What's 0:04:23.040 --> 0:04:26.480 Is this a post COVID phenomenon? Is it a rise 0:04:26.480 --> 0:04:30.320 of the cost of living phenomenon? Is it a globalization phenomenon? 0:04:30.520 --> 0:04:31.239 Is it all of the above? 0:04:31.240 --> 0:04:34.919 What is it? It's absolutely it's like dominoes, and so 0:04:35.320 --> 0:04:38.040 you know, you start with the mass class divide, and 0:04:38.120 --> 0:04:40.560 you have a battle for truth, and you have this 0:04:40.720 --> 0:04:44.080 problem of COVID five years on, where people mental health 0:04:44.120 --> 0:04:46.800 and other things, and then you have all the geopolitical 0:04:46.800 --> 0:04:49.479 issues and so all of this is a lot, and 0:04:49.880 --> 0:04:54.440 people feel continuously punched, and so I think they used 0:04:54.440 --> 0:04:57.400 to take it and just have fears, and then now 0:04:57.400 --> 0:05:00.520 they're aggrieved and they're prepared to fight back, and whether 0:05:00.560 --> 0:05:04.679 it's misinformation or even violence, this is what we start 0:05:04.720 --> 0:05:07.599 to see. And business has every reason to be concerned 0:05:07.640 --> 0:05:11.000 about this because business is distrusted by the highly aggrieved. 0:05:11.520 --> 0:05:14.160 It's different than most because business is the most component 0:05:14.160 --> 0:05:16.920 and most ethical except for the highly aggrieved. So business 0:05:17.000 --> 0:05:19.240 has to try to pull people back from this cliff 0:05:19.560 --> 0:05:21.839 and make people feel as if they have good jobs, 0:05:21.960 --> 0:05:24.400 they can get well paid, they will be reskilled and 0:05:24.440 --> 0:05:25.120 can compete. 0:05:25.240 --> 0:05:28.359 So what's the problem. Is it that workers aren't sharing 0:05:28.520 --> 0:05:32.520 in the profits? I mean, you know, we're an earning season, 0:05:32.560 --> 0:05:36.280 we see it. I mean companies are doing well, and 0:05:36.400 --> 0:05:40.040 is it a case that they're not sharing all of 0:05:40.040 --> 0:05:41.800 those with their workers. 0:05:41.920 --> 0:05:45.680 Well, here's an example. In Japan, there hasn't been really 0:05:45.720 --> 0:05:48.520 a raise for workers for thirty years, okay, and so 0:05:48.760 --> 0:05:51.520 you get the idea of why people in the lowest 0:05:51.560 --> 0:05:55.560 coretile of income feel deeply aggravated relative to the higher. 0:05:55.560 --> 0:05:59.360 So why aren't CEOs appreciating those workers at that level? 0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:01.720 I think that they are in the sense that they 0:06:01.839 --> 0:06:05.440 use them, they put them in jobs. But the truth is, 0:06:06.760 --> 0:06:11.400 there's been outsourcing, there's been globalization, there's now AI. All 0:06:11.400 --> 0:06:15.600 of this is towards cost and effectiveness, and so CEOs 0:06:15.600 --> 0:06:17.920 are balancing a lot of these factors. But they do 0:06:18.000 --> 0:06:21.240 want employees to work hard and be satisfied, and the 0:06:21.320 --> 0:06:22.240 key to that is pay. 0:06:22.920 --> 0:06:26.680 We saw CEOs stand behind the president at the inauguration, 0:06:27.680 --> 0:06:30.599 some exactly, not all. We saw many prominent ones there. 0:06:31.520 --> 0:06:36.440 In general, we have seen some CEOs share their views politically, 0:06:36.520 --> 0:06:39.040 more so in recent weeks, in recent months than we're 0:06:39.080 --> 0:06:42.240 sort of accustomed to. You said, there's this idea that 0:06:42.240 --> 0:06:45.880 they're cheering deregulation, they're cheering lower taxes. But what about 0:06:45.880 --> 0:06:50.240 the chaos that's associated with the administration thus far. Is 0:06:50.240 --> 0:06:53.440 it a distraction to them? Is it what you get 0:06:53.520 --> 0:06:56.359 with Donald Trump because we knew that in the first term, 0:06:56.760 --> 0:06:59.680 or is it something that concerns them because they need 0:06:59.680 --> 0:07:03.640 to make decisions about their businesses in China, in Canada, 0:07:03.720 --> 0:07:04.320 in Mexico. 0:07:04.960 --> 0:07:09.440 I think CEOs need to argue for agenda items that 0:07:09.600 --> 0:07:12.320 suit their business. So, for example, if trade is a 0:07:12.400 --> 0:07:14.320 key part of your business, you should go out and 0:07:14.360 --> 0:07:16.440 advocate for a free trade and say this is going 0:07:16.480 --> 0:07:18.800 to cause inflation, or it's going to make my supply 0:07:18.880 --> 0:07:21.920 chain inefficient, or it's actually going to cost jobs in America. 0:07:22.000 --> 0:07:25.320 But also the non American companies need to make the 0:07:25.360 --> 0:07:28.920 case for investing in the US, putting more manufacturing here, 0:07:29.280 --> 0:07:34.240 making sure that it's aligned to the president's agenda. It's both. 0:07:34.600 --> 0:07:37.120 But I don't believe that ceo should stick their heads 0:07:37.200 --> 0:07:39.320 up and be very political. I think they should do 0:07:39.360 --> 0:07:40.080 their businesses. 0:07:40.320 --> 0:07:42.000 But you know, I want to go back to what 0:07:42.040 --> 0:07:45.680 you said, sixty one percent globally have a moderate or 0:07:45.720 --> 0:07:47.920 high sense of grievance, which is defined by a belief 0:07:47.920 --> 0:07:50.520 that government and business make their lives harder and serve 0:07:50.640 --> 0:07:53.880 narrow interests and wealthy people benefit unfairly from the system. 0:07:53.920 --> 0:07:56.760 I'm waiting for like the deluge of emails of like 0:07:56.960 --> 0:08:00.240 yeah we got that, Carol, Like that explains politics that 0:08:00.280 --> 0:08:02.960 are going on, But like Richard, how do. Is it 0:08:03.160 --> 0:08:06.000 just a case of paying workers more. I'm not saying 0:08:06.160 --> 0:08:09.000 just I don't mean that, but I mean, is that 0:08:09.120 --> 0:08:13.640 the fix? Because there are a lot of disillusioned individuals 0:08:14.040 --> 0:08:15.920 here in the United States and around the globe, I 0:08:15.920 --> 0:08:18.200 think just feel completely left behind. 0:08:18.520 --> 0:08:22.840 So inflation is corrosive. Got to get inflation under control 0:08:22.880 --> 0:08:25.080 so that people feel as if when they run hard, 0:08:25.320 --> 0:08:27.920 they're not running into the wind. Second, they got to 0:08:27.920 --> 0:08:29.680 feel as if they have a chance for the future 0:08:29.680 --> 0:08:35.240 rescaling upskilling core. And then third is pay and continuous 0:08:35.559 --> 0:08:37.920 ability to get to a better place. 0:08:38.000 --> 0:08:41.199 It seems like such an easy fix. Why then aren't 0:08:41.240 --> 0:08:44.600 we getting there? Like paying workers more. We've had guests 0:08:44.600 --> 0:08:47.040 on right talking about a living wage, and then some 0:08:47.960 --> 0:08:49.840 why aren't we Why isn't it being done? 0:08:49.960 --> 0:08:54.560 Because we're not taking full advantage of what's possible. AI 0:08:54.720 --> 0:08:58.040 is actually an enhancement tool for workers to be able 0:08:58.120 --> 0:09:00.559 to produce more. I mean, in my business, can see 0:09:00.760 --> 0:09:03.840 how much faster people turn out press releases and message 0:09:03.840 --> 0:09:06.560 points and things like this. Everyone's got to put AI 0:09:07.000 --> 0:09:10.520 into their workflows. Also, we've got to be sure this 0:09:10.640 --> 0:09:13.680 reskilling thing so that everyone feels as if he or 0:09:13.720 --> 0:09:16.000 she can compete, not just the twenty two year old 0:09:16.120 --> 0:09:16.960 is just out of school. 0:09:17.600 --> 0:09:19.600 I feel like we've talked reskilling for years. 0:09:19.679 --> 0:09:22.080 Yeah, true, but we've never done it. We've never done 0:09:22.080 --> 0:09:24.920 it in an effective way. And also, business can't do 0:09:25.000 --> 0:09:27.760 this alone. Business should do this with government and NGOs. 0:09:27.800 --> 0:09:33.000 And the secret here is NGOs non governmental organizations. They're local. 0:09:33.240 --> 0:09:38.240 They're also actually believable for the high grievance people business 0:09:38.280 --> 0:09:41.479 is not. So business should partner with community organizations. 0:09:41.600 --> 0:09:45.680 We were supposed to see reskilling after NAFTA, and obviously 0:09:45.720 --> 0:09:48.320 that didn't happen to the extent that many people thought 0:09:48.320 --> 0:09:50.320 it would or were told that it would. How do 0:09:50.400 --> 0:09:54.679 these workers use AI if they're not in part of 0:09:54.720 --> 0:09:57.240 the knowledge economy, or if they're not writing press releases, 0:09:57.240 --> 0:09:59.320 if they're not writing message points like what is the 0:09:59.360 --> 0:10:02.440 way that for people to embrace AI rather than be 0:10:02.480 --> 0:10:03.040 scared of it. 0:10:03.240 --> 0:10:06.120 So one of our clients, Honeywell, is using AI on 0:10:06.160 --> 0:10:08.840 the factory floor and making their workers more productive. That's 0:10:08.880 --> 0:10:13.160 the key to the future. And actually blue collar workers 0:10:13.920 --> 0:10:17.679 have much less job risk than white collar in insurance 0:10:17.720 --> 0:10:20.920 and other things where they're repetitive skills. So blue collar 0:10:20.960 --> 0:10:24.680 workers could thrive This is a very important message that 0:10:24.720 --> 0:10:27.520 most people haven't absorbed, and we need to keep telling this. 0:10:27.800 --> 0:10:30.280 And we also need optimism back in this country. We 0:10:30.320 --> 0:10:32.760 need to make sure that people believe again that the 0:10:33.600 --> 0:10:36.400 country can do better, because in the moment there's this 0:10:36.480 --> 0:10:40.440 inundation of negativity. And I think competence and ethics will 0:10:40.440 --> 0:10:42.120 get you so far. But if you want to run 0:10:42.160 --> 0:10:44.880 an eight minute mile, it's aspirational for me these days, 0:10:44.960 --> 0:10:46.559 but I have to believe that I can. 0:10:48.040 --> 0:10:50.080 Yeah, I think it's I think it's fascinating that we 0:10:50.160 --> 0:10:53.040 also at the same time, I've been talking about American exceptionalism, 0:10:53.160 --> 0:10:55.160 like in comparison to what's going on in Europe and 0:10:55.200 --> 0:10:57.560 so on and so forth, But there's so many people 0:10:57.600 --> 0:11:01.080 in our society that don't feel that. Talk about stock market, well, 0:11:01.160 --> 0:11:02.400 well not everybody's in the market. 0:11:02.480 --> 0:11:04.439 Only half the people are in the market, correct. 0:11:04.559 --> 0:11:06.640 And I look in my world people I talk to 0:11:06.679 --> 0:11:08.480 a younger generation of like, I'm not going to have kids. 0:11:08.520 --> 0:11:09.920 How am I going to afford kids? I can't even 0:11:09.920 --> 0:11:11.680 buy a house, Like it's just crazy. 0:11:12.000 --> 0:11:15.480 But again, the chance to get to optimism is based 0:11:15.520 --> 0:11:19.720 on specific actions, and if there's a national reskilling campaign 0:11:19.840 --> 0:11:22.640 or even by cities. I think this is interesting, Carol. 0:11:22.679 --> 0:11:26.840 The trust has gone local. Trust in my mayor my company. 0:11:27.040 --> 0:11:30.319 My CEO is much higher than anybody else. So this 0:11:30.400 --> 0:11:32.319 is a channel that companies should use. 0:11:32.679 --> 0:11:35.000 There you have it, Edelman CEO, Richard Edelman. 0:11:35.200 --> 0:11:38.679 Coming up on Bloomberg Business Week, Elon Musk's Doze disruption 0:11:38.840 --> 0:11:40.960 and his impact in just a few short weeks. 0:11:41.280 --> 0:11:43.239 That's next. This is Bloomberg. 0:11:43.960 --> 0:11:47.520 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us 0:11:47.600 --> 0:11:51.040 live weekday afternoons from two to five pm Eastern. Listen 0:11:51.080 --> 0:11:54.600 on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app, 0:11:54.760 --> 0:11:57.640 or watch us live on YouTube. 0:11:58.520 --> 0:12:01.400 Now to two well known tech companies, both with government 0:12:01.440 --> 0:12:05.240 contracts and huge tech billionaires connected to each. We are 0:12:05.280 --> 0:12:07.480 talking about Palenteer and SpaceX. 0:12:07.720 --> 0:12:11.040 Palenteer share soaring to a record following earnings this past 0:12:11.080 --> 0:12:13.760 week after the company gave a full year revenue forecast 0:12:13.800 --> 0:12:18.360 that exceeded analyst estimates, driven by quote untamed organic growth 0:12:18.360 --> 0:12:20.240 and demand for its AI software. 0:12:20.440 --> 0:12:23.400 And then they're SpaceX and its founder Elon Musk and 0:12:23.440 --> 0:12:27.000 his Doze teams seemingly taking over of the US government. 0:12:27.480 --> 0:12:30.440 It's a move that sparked concern among various unions now 0:12:30.520 --> 0:12:33.320 urging the courts to block Doze from getting treasury and 0:12:33.400 --> 0:12:34.000 labor data. 0:12:34.640 --> 0:12:36.760 We knew we needed a roundtable on this, and so 0:12:36.800 --> 0:12:39.400 we caught up with a Bloomberg Business Week columnist Max 0:12:39.480 --> 0:12:43.839 Chafkin and Bloomberg News technology reporter Kurt Wagner. Max kicking 0:12:43.840 --> 0:12:46.680 it off with Palenteer and why it's garnering so much 0:12:46.720 --> 0:12:48.040 interest from investors. 0:12:48.559 --> 0:12:49.720 So two things. 0:12:49.840 --> 0:12:52.920 One is AI. This is a company that has sort 0:12:52.920 --> 0:12:55.680 of made its embrace of AI sort of central to 0:12:55.880 --> 0:12:58.560 how it talks about what it does. This is a 0:12:58.559 --> 0:13:03.480 company that makes software that helps governments and big companies 0:13:03.600 --> 0:13:06.480 organized data. So so part of it is that this 0:13:07.000 --> 0:13:09.920 general sense that big companies and the government are going 0:13:09.920 --> 0:13:13.280 for AI. And the second part is related to the 0:13:13.320 --> 0:13:16.319 other thing you mentioned, which is Elon Musk Donald Trump, 0:13:16.679 --> 0:13:21.240 this sense that the Trump administration is likely to embrace 0:13:21.640 --> 0:13:25.720 things like Palenteer. I think both because you have Doge 0:13:25.720 --> 0:13:27.320 and you have Elon Musk saying we need to make 0:13:27.520 --> 0:13:31.360 things more efficient. Palanteer has a value proposition there. But also, 0:13:31.440 --> 0:13:34.160 of course there is a political connection. You know, Palenteer 0:13:34.360 --> 0:13:37.280 co founded by Peter Teel Peter Teel still a major 0:13:37.679 --> 0:13:41.160 shareholder in this company. You know, they are going to 0:13:41.280 --> 0:13:44.000 have you would think at least some kind of inside 0:13:44.120 --> 0:13:48.360 lane in terms of trying to get additional contracts, both 0:13:48.400 --> 0:13:51.320 because of the relationships with the Teal network, because of 0:13:51.320 --> 0:13:53.440 their AI stuff, and because of Teal himself. 0:13:53.520 --> 0:13:56.760 Okay, speaking of government contractors, Palentteer is a government contractor, 0:13:56.840 --> 0:14:02.719 so too is SpaceX. SpaceX founder Tesla, the guy who 0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:05.680 built Tesla Co'm fair to say, Elon Musk they have 0:14:05.880 --> 0:14:08.360 or had relationships with President Trump. So that's where we 0:14:08.360 --> 0:14:10.080 want to go, and we want to bring in Kurt Wagner. 0:14:10.400 --> 0:14:12.600 What do we know about all that Elon and his 0:14:12.640 --> 0:14:15.040 team of engineers and others linked to his own company 0:14:15.800 --> 0:14:19.240 and the DOGE team. What exactly they're doing at what 0:14:19.360 --> 0:14:22.520 parts of the US government, what they're asking, and what 0:14:22.560 --> 0:14:23.640 they're trying to accomplish. 0:14:25.040 --> 0:14:27.440 Generally, what you can assume is that Elon and his 0:14:27.520 --> 0:14:30.360 team are are taking a bit of a forceful approach, right. 0:14:30.360 --> 0:14:33.240 I Mean, we saw stories come out about them, you know, 0:14:33.440 --> 0:14:36.720 essentially bullying their way into having full access to the 0:14:36.760 --> 0:14:41.240 Treasury Department's payment system. We saw them, you know, single 0:14:41.240 --> 0:14:44.520 handedly closed USAID right, like this idea that they could 0:14:44.560 --> 0:14:46.960 go in and just sort of say, hey, this agency, 0:14:47.360 --> 0:14:50.760 this this federal agency, we don't think they're doing a 0:14:50.800 --> 0:14:53.280 good job, and we're just gonna you know, shut them 0:14:53.320 --> 0:14:56.960 down right then and there. And we hear these sort 0:14:57.000 --> 0:15:01.160 of horror stories come out from employees of these you know, 0:15:01.200 --> 0:15:03.560 different agencies, sort of saying, hey, we're trying to maybe 0:15:03.600 --> 0:15:05.880 stop this this group of people, We're trying to make 0:15:05.920 --> 0:15:09.800 sure that they have appropriate you know, access levels to 0:15:10.240 --> 0:15:13.760 read this classified information, and essentially they're just forcing. 0:15:13.480 --> 0:15:14.040 Their way through. 0:15:14.080 --> 0:15:16.560 And so what I wrote about was just sort of 0:15:16.640 --> 0:15:19.560 the parallels between what we're seeing there and what we 0:15:19.680 --> 0:15:22.960 saw with the Twitter takeover, right, which was obviously a 0:15:23.080 --> 0:15:25.800 very brute force effort as well. Elon shows up, he 0:15:25.840 --> 0:15:28.000 brings his crew of people who are loyal to him 0:15:28.320 --> 0:15:31.360 and sort of just span out and start causing chaos 0:15:31.400 --> 0:15:34.120 and recon havoc. And I think we're seeing that now, 0:15:34.160 --> 0:15:37.760 but on the government scale, which is obviously a very 0:15:37.800 --> 0:15:40.560 different and I think a bit of a scarier situation 0:15:40.680 --> 0:15:41.120 for people. 0:15:41.280 --> 0:15:42.680 Max, I want to bring you in, I mean, in 0:15:42.760 --> 0:15:45.840 terms of when you guys talk about you know, Elon 0:15:46.240 --> 0:15:48.520 on the podcast and just you know, the coverage that 0:15:48.560 --> 0:15:49.320 you have done. 0:15:49.440 --> 0:15:49.520 That. 0:15:49.880 --> 0:15:51.800 On one hand, I think Elon's probably like this is 0:15:51.800 --> 0:15:53.640 pretty cool to ask, like, oh my god, I want 0:15:53.640 --> 0:15:54.040 to like. 0:15:54.040 --> 0:15:54.840 Fix this right. 0:15:55.040 --> 0:15:57.320 And on the other hand, I'm like, wait a minute, 0:15:57.320 --> 0:15:59.520 he's got to be like, look at what I have 0:15:59.600 --> 0:16:01.640 access too, Like, what do you think. 0:16:01.600 --> 0:16:02.200 Is his goal? 0:16:02.280 --> 0:16:04.600 What is you know he learning or wanting to learn 0:16:04.600 --> 0:16:08.520 in this process? Is it altruistic or is it. 0:16:07.800 --> 0:16:09.880 Well, I think you have a swirrel. 0:16:10.240 --> 0:16:11.320 It's probably both, right. 0:16:11.360 --> 0:16:13.960 I got both out, both a sense of altruism and 0:16:14.000 --> 0:16:17.120 a profit motivation, and I think for someone like Elon Musk, 0:16:17.160 --> 0:16:19.360 those two things are tangled up. You know, Elon Musk 0:16:19.600 --> 0:16:22.160 he believes, and I think this is a genuine belief, 0:16:22.160 --> 0:16:24.480 not a cynical belief put on to make money. But 0:16:24.520 --> 0:16:26.840 he believes that yes, humanity needs. 0:16:26.600 --> 0:16:28.040 To get to Mars. 0:16:28.080 --> 0:16:31.160 He needs we should spend tens of billions of dollars, 0:16:32.200 --> 0:16:34.640 you know, as a country put on a Mars mission, 0:16:34.640 --> 0:16:37.640 and that Elon Musk, having the market leading rocket, should 0:16:37.640 --> 0:16:40.160 get a large chunk of that money. Now, of course, 0:16:40.200 --> 0:16:43.280 like that raises some significant questions in terms of conflict 0:16:43.320 --> 0:16:46.000 of interest. And I'd say in addition to being a 0:16:46.040 --> 0:16:48.760 guy who's very motivated by these kind of big picture things. 0:16:48.920 --> 0:16:51.960 He is also a guy who tends not to pause 0:16:52.040 --> 0:16:54.600 much for concerns about conflict of interest, and that's kind 0:16:54.600 --> 0:16:57.880 of what we're seeing in some of these incidents over 0:16:57.920 --> 0:16:59.960 the past couple of weeks that Kurt's talking about. You know, 0:17:00.000 --> 0:17:06.159 so this actual like almost a physical confrontation between Musk's 0:17:06.200 --> 0:17:10.880 sort of representatives at DOGE going into USID and attempting 0:17:11.119 --> 0:17:13.439 to get access to these classified documents, and you had 0:17:13.520 --> 0:17:16.280 USAID personnel trying to stop them. 0:17:16.520 --> 0:17:16.760 Kurt. 0:17:16.760 --> 0:17:19.560 One thing that's unique about this situation, and it's not 0:17:19.680 --> 0:17:21.320 the you know it, certainly there are a lot of 0:17:21.320 --> 0:17:24.440 parallels as you write about between what happened at TESLA 0:17:24.640 --> 0:17:28.600 and what's happening right now with DOGE. He does report 0:17:28.920 --> 0:17:33.280 to the president ultimately in this and I'm wondering if 0:17:33.320 --> 0:17:36.960 that changes things at all for the Elon Musk playbook. 0:17:37.080 --> 0:17:37.800 What do you make of it? 0:17:38.720 --> 0:17:42.600 I mean, it feels like we haven't seen him, you know, 0:17:42.800 --> 0:17:46.040 slowed down at all to this point, right. I presume 0:17:46.600 --> 0:17:48.680 perhaps behind the scenes he's saying, Hey, I really want 0:17:48.680 --> 0:17:51.239 to cut this thing, and President Trump is saying no, no, no, 0:17:51.320 --> 0:17:55.080 don't touch that. I don't really see that maybe playing 0:17:55.119 --> 0:17:55.800 out in that way. 0:17:55.920 --> 0:17:56.080 Right. 0:17:56.160 --> 0:17:59.600 It feels like Trump has certainly given him a wide 0:18:01.320 --> 0:18:04.760 you know, birth or to go out and do this thing, 0:18:04.800 --> 0:18:06.560 and to do it in the way that he thinks 0:18:06.560 --> 0:18:08.520 he should. I think the point that I was trying 0:18:08.520 --> 0:18:11.600 to make earlier in the Tech column was that, you know, 0:18:11.680 --> 0:18:15.440 with Twitter, that was a private company that was purchased 0:18:15.480 --> 0:18:17.800 with private money, Right, Like, if he wants to sort 0:18:17.800 --> 0:18:21.280 of run that thing, aggressively, run it into the ground 0:18:21.320 --> 0:18:24.920 in certain cases, and deal with the consequences, that's his choice. 0:18:25.320 --> 0:18:27.879 The issue here is that all these decisions he is 0:18:27.920 --> 0:18:31.320 making and making them at an incredibly fast speed, have 0:18:31.560 --> 0:18:36.520 impact on you know, every US citizen, including nobody who 0:18:36.560 --> 0:18:38.960 voted for him, because he wasn't voted, he wasn't elected 0:18:39.040 --> 0:18:41.720 to this role, right, And so I think the distinction 0:18:41.840 --> 0:18:45.520 there is like, okay, private business, private ownership versus public funds, 0:18:45.560 --> 0:18:49.000 public you know impact. And that's I think the big 0:18:49.040 --> 0:18:50.160 thing that we need to keep in mind. 0:18:50.320 --> 0:18:52.800 That was Bloomberg Business we call him this Max Chafkin 0:18:52.880 --> 0:18:56.200 and Bloomberg News technology reporter Kurt Wagner. We should note, 0:18:56.200 --> 0:18:58.800 after our conversation with Max and Kurt. The White House 0:18:58.800 --> 0:19:02.320 said Elon Musk will determine himself if there are conflicts 0:19:02.320 --> 0:19:05.359 of interest between his own work reviewing federal spending and 0:19:05.440 --> 0:19:07.680 his overlapping empire of six companies. 0:19:07.800 --> 0:19:09.400 All right, We're going to stay with tech for a moment. 0:19:09.400 --> 0:19:11.119 We shift a little bit thanks to the world of 0:19:11.160 --> 0:19:14.280 social media and how our digital footprints are providing more 0:19:14.280 --> 0:19:17.520 information about ourselves, probably more than we realize. 0:19:17.600 --> 0:19:20.880 Columbia Business School professor Sandra Motts writes about this in 0:19:20.880 --> 0:19:23.960 her new book mind Masters, The Data Driven Science of 0:19:24.040 --> 0:19:27.560 Predicting and Changing Human Behavior. She went in on Meta's 0:19:27.640 --> 0:19:30.879 recent decision in January to end third party fact checking 0:19:31.240 --> 0:19:33.680 and what it means for user engagement and the fight 0:19:33.720 --> 0:19:34.880 against misinformation. 0:19:35.400 --> 0:19:38.040 Frankly, I think misinformation is just such a small piece 0:19:38.080 --> 0:19:40.040 of the entire puzzle because a lot of the information 0:19:40.080 --> 0:19:43.640 that's out there is not necessarily fake and not true, 0:19:43.960 --> 0:19:46.760 but it's just slant in so it's not necessarily that 0:19:46.840 --> 0:19:49.800 it's actually inaccurate, but it has like a certain angle 0:19:49.840 --> 0:19:52.240 and a certain spin that speaks to what we want 0:19:52.280 --> 0:19:55.280 to hear. And for me, that's even a bigger problem 0:19:55.280 --> 0:19:57.680 because it's much harder to regulate right. It's much harder 0:19:57.760 --> 0:20:01.480 to take down from contum model or as metas trying 0:20:01.480 --> 0:20:04.639 to do now just from a consensus among users. Right, 0:20:04.680 --> 0:20:07.120 that's an even higher bar when we think about these 0:20:07.160 --> 0:20:10.760 news that are maybe not factually inaccurate, but certainly tailored 0:20:10.760 --> 0:20:12.320