Speaker 1: Hey fam, Hello sunshine. Today on the bright side, it's
Speaker 1: Wellness Wednesday. And if you've seen the headlines on microplastics
Speaker 1: and wondered should I be freaking out?
Speaker 2: Are they the silent polluters in our homes?
Speaker 1: Well, we're cutting through the panic with doctor Heather Leslie.
Speaker 2: She's here to tell us what.
Speaker 1: Actually matters, where microplastics are hiding, how they're affecting our health,
Speaker 1: and what we can do about it all. It's Wednesday,
Speaker 1: February nineteenth.
Speaker 3: I'm Danielle Robe and I'm Simone Boye and this is
Speaker 3: the bright side from Hello Sunshine.
Speaker 2: Danielle.
Speaker 3: I don't know about you, but I feel like I
Speaker 3: am constantly bombarded with headlines about the dangers of microplastics,
Speaker 3: and it's hard not to panic.
Speaker 1: Well, first of all, yes, and second of all, that's
Speaker 1: sort of the problem is that they're everywhere, Like they're
Speaker 1: in our water, our food, our clothes, even our air.
Speaker 1: And so for most of us who are thinking about
Speaker 1: our health, or our caid's health, or our parents' health
Speaker 1: on a daily basis, those headlines are really scary.
Speaker 3: Do you remember that movie Dark Waters from twenty nineteen, Yes, yes,
Speaker 3: absolutely so. Darkwaters is a film that's based on a
Speaker 3: true story about a lawsuit against the chemical company DuPont
Speaker 3: for polluting a town with unregulated chemicals, and it chronicles
Speaker 3: the mysterious deaths that followed Mark Ruffalo's in the film
Speaker 3: and Hathaways in the film. And for me, it was
Speaker 3: really eye opening about the dangerous consequences of these chemicals.
Speaker 3: And after I watched that movie, I made a lot
Speaker 3: of changes. I like throughout all of my teflon cookware
Speaker 3: that I got when I got married, and we switched
Speaker 3: to all non toxic stuff, And so I was feeling
Speaker 3: really energized about taking control over this issue. But then,
Speaker 3: like you were saying, when I started to realize how
Speaker 3: prevalent these microplastics are, I just feel defeated.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 3: I feel like, how can I possibly even make a
Speaker 3: dent in removing these these toxins for my life.
Speaker 1: So I do a lot of work with the Environmental
Speaker 1: Working Group, which is known as the EWG, and they
Speaker 1: talk about this a lot. And the reason I started
Speaker 1: working with them is because I felt so overwhelmed. I
Speaker 1: was so freaked out because these microplastics, they say they're
Speaker 1: messing with our hormones, our immune systems, some studies even
Speaker 1: say our fertility and so that panic is definitely real,
Speaker 1: but organizations like the EWG break it down, and so
Speaker 1: I think our guest today is also somebody who is
Speaker 1: going to break down this information in a way that
Speaker 1: feels like we're a little bit more in control and
Speaker 1: we can try and avoid some of these things and
Speaker 1: lessen our panic. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Doctor Heather Leslie is a scientist and truly a leading
Speaker 3: expert in the realm of microplastics. She was actually part
Speaker 3: of the team that first detected microplastics and human blood.
Speaker 3: If you can imagine how monumental that knowledge would have
Speaker 3: been at that time. I obviously have tons of questions.
Speaker 3: I want to get to the truth, I want to
Speaker 3: get past the panic, and I want to understand how
Speaker 3: these plastics are really affecting us. So let's bring her
Speaker 3: in joining us all the way from Amsterdam.
Speaker 2: It's doctor Heather Leslie.
Speaker 1: Doctor Leslie, welcome to the right side.
Speaker 4: Thank you very much.
Speaker 2: So we're going to get into all of the science
Speaker 2: and all the important stuff.
Speaker 1: But I have to ask you right off the bat,
Speaker 1: am I actually eating a credit cards worth of plastic
Speaker 1: every week?
Speaker 4: That's kind of fake news.
Speaker 5: I think we are eating something, but it's not exactly
Speaker 5: the same thing as a credit card a plastic.
Speaker 2: I feel so relieved hearing that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm glad.
Speaker 1: What exactly falls under the microplastics umbrella?
Speaker 2: What are we eating?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 5: Well, microplastics are a really complicated kind of toxicant because
Speaker 5: they're made up of so many different chemicals. You have
Speaker 5: the polymers, which I sometimes refer to as as spaghetti,
Speaker 5: but then you have additives, which I call the sauce.
Speaker 5: So it's a sort of a cocktail of chemicals that
Speaker 5: are in a microplastic. So one piece of plastic you
Speaker 5: can have four hundred different chemicals in there.
Speaker 1: What are the primary sources of microplastics? Are they solely
Speaker 1: the result of larger plastics breaking down or are there
Speaker 1: other ways that they enter the environment.
Speaker 5: Well, most of them are just shreds that are just
Speaker 5: eroding off of our plastic stuff. But you do have
Speaker 5: some microplastics that are we call them primary microplastics, and
Speaker 5: they're manufactured to be microplastics. You see that sometimes in
Speaker 5: cosmetics or personal care product they make microbeads put in there,
Speaker 5: and that's an example of intentionally made plastic that are
Speaker 5: micro sized.
Speaker 1: And is there a breakdown primarily a result of time, heat,
Speaker 1: physical wear, and tear.
Speaker 2: What are the key processes at play?
Speaker 4: Those are good key processes.
Speaker 5: So when you have a UV light like sunshine on plastic,
Speaker 5: it breaks it down a little bit faster. But nothing's
Speaker 5: linear with breakdown of plastics. Sometimes you know something will
Speaker 5: crack and it will break. But then to really break down,
Speaker 5: to completely mineralize, to go back to the earth, let's
Speaker 5: say it takes hundreds of years, if not longer.
Speaker 3: Doctor Leslie Danielle threw out that headline at you at
Speaker 3: the top of this conversation, and you responded saying it's
Speaker 3: fake news. And for me, that's what I really want
Speaker 3: to get out of this conversation, not just for me
Speaker 3: and my family, but also for our listeners. I really
Speaker 3: want to cut through the panic here and try to
Speaker 3: understand what is a healthy amount of awareness about this
Speaker 3: issue and what is an unhealthy amount of fear around microplastics.
Speaker 3: What is a healthy perspective on this, What is a
Speaker 3: healthy way to view how these toxins are impacting us?
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, I think no amount of fear is healthy.
Speaker 5: So fear is just bad for us, bad for your health. Basically,
Speaker 5: so turn down the fear. It is a serious issue though,
Speaker 5: and I spent a lot of years my life working
Speaker 5: on this, and I hope I didn't waste that time.
Speaker 5: I do think that our world, in our bodies with
Speaker 5: the world, are getting polluted with a lot of different chemicals,
Speaker 5: and this is you know, some people don't mind having
Speaker 5: a lot of chemicals in their bodies. Some of us
Speaker 5: still put chemicals in our body on purpose that aren't
Speaker 5: good for us. And I think everybody should be free
Speaker 5: to just choose, but when it comes to pollution, you
Speaker 5: don't really have too much freedom to choose, or there's
Speaker 5: limitations to that, and that's where it gets to be
Speaker 5: a bit problematic, where you you know, you really want
Speaker 5: to be able to choose what goes into your body.
Speaker 5: And microplastics are made up of many different components, so
Speaker 5: polymers and a lot of chemicals, and some of them
Speaker 5: are harmless, but some of them can cause toxic effects
Speaker 5: like hormone disruption or neurotoxicity. And one of the ones
Speaker 5: that the microplastics are getting known for is their ability
Speaker 5: to cause inflammation. So it's an immune system response and
Speaker 5: what we don't want in our bodies is inflammation, especially
Speaker 5: on the long term, because a long term inflammation is
Speaker 5: like a prelude to a lot of chronic diseases. So
Speaker 5: I think it's just prudent to when you signal something
Speaker 5: on the horizon that there's some indications that there's a
Speaker 5: problem with toxicity, that we just try to limit our
Speaker 5: exposure to these components, and we really have to keep
Speaker 5: on doing the research to deliver the answers. Just that
Speaker 5: science is a bit slow to deliver all the answers
Speaker 5: at once.
Speaker 3: Well that's not always a bad thing. I'd rather slow
Speaker 3: and accurate versus fast and untrue.
Speaker 4: Definitely.
Speaker 3: So I want to underscore something that you just said.
Speaker 3: You said that the priority is to limit exposure, because
Speaker 3: at this point it feels like completely cutting off exposure
Speaker 3: to microplastics just seems unrealistic. So what does it look
Speaker 3: like to limit our exposure to these microplastics.
Speaker 5: Yeah, so I think it's what you said. It's impossible
Speaker 5: to fully limit your exposure to microplastics on the planet Earth.
Speaker 4: So what I do.
Speaker 5: Also is to take small steps to where it's living
Speaker 5: more aligned with what I really want my body to
Speaker 5: be in contact with. So you can think about it
Speaker 5: in your home. Next time you buy a blanket, you
Speaker 5: don't have to buy a polyester blanket or nylon clothing,
Speaker 5: or any kind of interior carpets or curtains, anything that
Speaker 5: you're bringing into your home furniture. If it's not plastic,
Speaker 5: it's not going to shed plastic. And if it's not plastic,
Speaker 5: it won't be carrying plastic additives in it. And sometimes
Speaker 5: the solution to a problem can also bring other problems
Speaker 5: with it, so you have to pay attention.
Speaker 1: But yeah, how close are we to understanding the long
Speaker 1: term health effects of microplastics?
Speaker 5: I think the long term health effects are a long
Speaker 5: way away in our understanding. What we will first find
Speaker 5: out is what happens at a cellular level, because toxicity
Speaker 5: testing in a laboratory will look at, you know, really
Speaker 5: zoom in on something very molecular level. But then how
Speaker 5: that all pans out for the individual body or a
Speaker 5: whole population of people. That takes a lot of time
Speaker 5: and a lot of resources, and it's just a question
Speaker 5: of whether we're going to be investing that. One thing
Speaker 5: I can say is that if diseases pop up that
Speaker 5: are from environmental factors, they often pop up in occupationally
Speaker 5: exposed people. So people may be working in a workplace
Speaker 5: where there's a lot of plastic dust that they're inhaling,
Speaker 5: or in another way, they're swallowing a lot of chemicals,
Speaker 5: or they're breeding it in. And these populations are sometimes
Speaker 5: the populations where we first see diseases arising. So that
Speaker 5: could accelerate some of our understanding, but I hope it
Speaker 5: doesn't get to that point that people are getting really acutely,
Speaker 5: very sick from this stuff.
Speaker 3: So would you explain what exactly is happening in our
Speaker 3: bodies when microplastics invade our organs and our bloodstream.
Speaker 5: So a few years ago, we published a paper that
Speaker 5: showed plastics to be floating around in our bloodstream, and
Speaker 5: of course your blood goes everywhere in your body, so
Speaker 5: it will be present in all of your tissues and
Speaker 5: organs as well. And we were a bit surprised how
Speaker 5: much we did find. I mean, it's a preliminary study
Speaker 5: that has since been redone and with similar results, so
Speaker 5: it seems like we do have exposure in there. And
Speaker 5: if a microplastic is in a bloodstream, and I've looked
Speaker 5: at microplastics in blood samples under a microscope, and you
Speaker 5: can see that your immune cells are really active, so
Speaker 5: they immediately sense there's an invader and they will go
Speaker 5: and attack this piece of plastic. And these immune cells
Speaker 5: have enzymes inside which they try to break down the
Speaker 5: plastic because they're treating the plastic particle like a bacteria.
Speaker 5: But the problem is that plastics, unlike bacteria, don't succumb
Speaker 5: to an enzyme attack. So after a few days, the
Speaker 5: cell gives up and the enzymes get released into whatever
Speaker 5: tissue is nearby that can also cause an inflammation, and
Speaker 5: then the plastic still remains there. And I don't know
Speaker 5: how long it will take for a body to eliminate
Speaker 5: the plastic that it receives today. Nobody, I think, knows
Speaker 5: that yet, but we do know that the rate of
Speaker 5: absorption of these plastics is certainly faster than the rate
Speaker 5: that we are able to eliminate them. Otherwise we wouldn't
Speaker 5: be finding them in our bodies, in all these organs
Speaker 5: that you see in the news and also in our
Speaker 5: study in the bloodstream.
Speaker 1: When did this first pop up, and maybe even particularly
Speaker 1: in American culture, did something change in industry or was this.
Speaker 2: Always the case?
Speaker 1: We were always ingesting a ton of microplastics, and only
Speaker 1: in the last ten twenty years are we studying it. Yeah.
Speaker 5: Well, the very first signals of microplastics was in the
Speaker 5: Sergasso Sea and that was the end of the sixties.
Speaker 5: But there were also patents for using pulverized plastic in
Speaker 5: makeup like blush and things like that, those who go
Speaker 5: back to the fifties. Even so, it's been on some
Speaker 5: people's radars, but certainly hasn't been on mainstream radar until
Speaker 5: fairly recently. And one of the people who was really
Speaker 5: instrumental in bringing it to the public was Captain Charles Moore,
Speaker 5: also from California, who went out sailing on the Pacific
Speaker 5: Ocean and stumbled across old toothbrushes and bottles and toys
Speaker 5: that were floating in the middle of the Pacific Ocean,
Speaker 5: and he thought, that's crazy, what are these things doing here?
Speaker 4: And he's been.
Speaker 5: Also studying microplastics in the sea as well, so he
Speaker 5: really put it on the map.
Speaker 1: I would say, we have to take a quick break,
Speaker 1: but we'll be right back with doctor Heather Leslie. And
Speaker 1: we're back with doctor Heather Leslie.
Speaker 3: Well, doctor Leslie, we also have to give you your
Speaker 3: flowers because you are a leading expert in this space,
Speaker 3: and you're known for your pioneering research in identifying and
Speaker 3: quantifying microplastics in human bloodstream for the very first time,
Speaker 3: which is huge. And you also led the EU's first
Speaker 3: research project on marine plastic pollution, which you were just
Speaker 3: speaking about the prevalence of microplastics in marine pollution. How
Speaker 3: much has changed from your vantage point? How has the
Speaker 3: prevalence of microplastics in society evolved since you started doing
Speaker 3: this work.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I really noticed a lot of more attention than
Speaker 5: compared to the past. I mean sometimes I'm sitting on
Speaker 5: the train and I hear some people talking about cleaning
Speaker 5: products or microplastics in their toothpaste. And it's not just
Speaker 5: because of my research, but also because of NGOs that
Speaker 5: amplify the message and they take the research that they
Speaker 5: put it out there in their platforms, and I think
Speaker 5: there's a lot of awareness now.
Speaker 4: School kids seem to know just as much as I know.
Speaker 5: If I speak to them, they're full of knowledge and
Speaker 5: also solutions and they're very very concerned, so they're very
Speaker 5: easy also to make their changes. You know, they love nature,
Speaker 5: they love animals, and they're willing to do something for it.
Speaker 3: Well, I have two kids, and I think about just
Speaker 3: how hard it is to limit their exposure to microplastics.
Speaker 3: I mean, plastic seems to be the prevailing material that
Speaker 3: companies use to create products for children. It's in the toys,
Speaker 3: it's in the sippy cups, it's in the plastic plates.
Speaker 3: And I know that I should be reaching for stainless steel,
Speaker 3: But I'd love to hear any alternatives that you might
Speaker 3: have for parents out there who are looking to limit
Speaker 3: exposure in their own home.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a good point.
Speaker 5: Children are also, that's an early life stage, and they
Speaker 5: are more sensitive than adults to a lot of these
Speaker 5: hormone disrupting chemicals and possibly also the microplastics itself. So
Speaker 5: we've seen some studies coming out about baby bottles that
Speaker 5: you know, especially when you heat up plastic or have
Speaker 5: warm liquids or warm food in plastic containers, that's really
Speaker 5: when processes go a little faster and you get even
Speaker 5: more exposure. So, as I said, if there's no plastic
Speaker 5: in the product, it won't come out into your food
Speaker 5: or it won't be exposed to your child to plastic.
Speaker 5: It's very difficult, but I think it's okay to start
Speaker 5: with one thing and slowly work your way up to
Speaker 5: seeing how far you can get, see how jazzed up
Speaker 5: you can get. To reduce your plastic exposure. A lot
Speaker 5: of kids will put things in their mouths. You have
Speaker 5: the stuffed animals, and I think, you know, we can't
Speaker 5: just reduce the amount of joy that kids get from
Speaker 5: having their toys, but we can start to, especially for
Speaker 5: really young age groups that put a lot of things
Speaker 5: into their mouths, try to reduce the amount of things
Speaker 5: that are made of plastic and look for more natural
Speaker 5: materials than natural dyes and things like that. But I
Speaker 5: feel sorry for parents because it seems like a big
Speaker 5: mountain of work to do, just like for adults, but
Speaker 5: for children it's a special case.
Speaker 2: Yes, it's very intimidating.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and I'm here really to say not to be intimidated.
Speaker 5: I think just to do the best you can to
Speaker 5: set the intention. Whenever you make a choice, maybe it'll
Speaker 5: enter your head and you'll be able to choose a
Speaker 5: different option. And that's the way to go. Because we
Speaker 5: can't change everything overnight. But there are so many things
Speaker 5: that we can do, and I think a lot of
Speaker 5: people look towards the government and waiting for them to
Speaker 5: change things for us. And it's also an American style
Speaker 5: of thinking to just think for yourself to get it
Speaker 5: done without help, you know, And I really admire that.
Speaker 5: I think that's the way to go because in my experience,
Speaker 5: I've talked a lot with governments, but I think they're
Speaker 5: going to be the last ones. After all the companies
Speaker 5: have changed and all the people like us have changed
Speaker 5: into a new way of living, then they're going to
Speaker 5: catch up and they'll regulate it all for us. But
Speaker 5: you know, I really think that we have to be
Speaker 5: ahead of the game to draw us into the future
Speaker 5: of living a less plasticized life.
Speaker 2: It's a really important perspective shift. Thank you.
Speaker 1: I am really into trying to reduce toxins in my life.
Speaker 1: Cleaning products, makeup, even my mattress, bath towels. A few
Speaker 1: years ago really tried to do an overhaul. And I
Speaker 1: remember asking my physician when I was like at the
Speaker 1: beginning stages of this, if I made one swap today,
Speaker 1: what is the first thing that I should do? And
Speaker 1: this was just his personal perspective, but he said, deodorant
Speaker 1: because it's going right into your lymph nodes. If you
Speaker 1: could swap one thing, that would be my recommendation. So
Speaker 1: I say that all to say, I know this is
Speaker 1: a tough question, but if you could make the number
Speaker 1: one recommendation today, what is one way that we can
Speaker 1: reduce our exposure to microplastics?
Speaker 5: I would have to go with food. So processed food,
Speaker 5: like getting away from whole foods will get you into
Speaker 5: more microplastics and also other chemicals.
Speaker 4: I think it's for all around health.
Speaker 5: It's a really very very strong way to make a
Speaker 5: difference in your exposure. Of course, food is something is
Speaker 5: going right into our bodies, just like a deodorant through
Speaker 5: the skin.
Speaker 4: But I mean.
Speaker 5: Ingesting something is very direct way of getting it inside.
Speaker 5: I mean, just about two generations, I think the world
Speaker 5: has kind of switched to things that come in a package,
Speaker 5: and the packaging releases a lot of chemicals and also microplastics.
Speaker 5: If you rip something open, of course, plastic is going
Speaker 5: to get inside. Chewing gum is also made of plastic.
Speaker 5: You don't swallow it normally, but you could also avoid that.
Speaker 4: So yeah, I would say.
Speaker 5: Food is is a really big source of a lot
Speaker 5: of toxicity.
Speaker 4: At the same time as being something that keeps us alive.
Speaker 5: But I think if you can improve your food quality,
Speaker 5: I think it's the single most thing I would recommend.
Speaker 2: That is huge. Thank you for sharing that.
Speaker 3: It's time for another short break. We'll be right back
Speaker 3: with doctor Heather Leslie. And we're back with doctor Heather Leslie.
Speaker 3: Doctor Leslie, can we go through a few potential swaps
Speaker 3: for plastic with you?
Speaker 4: Sure?
Speaker 3: All right, let's talk about tea bags, paper coffee cups,
Speaker 3: you know the ones that you get at coffee shops.
Speaker 3: Are there any swaps for these?
Speaker 4: Oh?
Speaker 5: Sure yeah. Paper cups with the polyethylene lining, and the
Speaker 5: polyethylene will start to melt even before one hundred degrees
Speaker 5: celsius like boiling water temperature. So I would say if
Speaker 5: you don't need to buy a coffee in one of
Speaker 5: those cups, or if you can get it in a
Speaker 5: real cup or bring your on cup, it's much better.
Speaker 5: Tea bags also give off a lot of microplastics, and
Speaker 5: loose tea is lovely to use. You have a little
Speaker 5: tea egg or in my teapot, a teapot with a
Speaker 5: built in little filter.
Speaker 1: Last year we spoke with a doctor who told us
Speaker 1: to never ever microwave or reheat anything that's in plastic.
Speaker 1: What exactly happens when we microwave plastic? How bad is it?
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, that's another heating process.
Speaker 5: So the plastic gets warmed up, and that will encourage
Speaker 5: the chemicals that are in the plastic to leave and
Speaker 5: go in volatilized. They just evaporate and they go into
Speaker 5: your food. And then also the material is a little
Speaker 5: bit structurally damaged by every heating episode, so a little
Speaker 5: bit of microplastic will will be released. Then using plastic
Speaker 5: in a microwave is not a good idea. You can
Speaker 5: just put it in a glass container or ceramic container
Speaker 5: and heat it up.
Speaker 1: I think that one of the biggest scams of the
Speaker 1: twin first century was bottled water. Everybody thought that nodding
Speaker 1: your head, yes, we were doing a good thing by
Speaker 1: or a healthy thing by drinking water. And there's a
Speaker 1: ton of reasons that bottled water is bad, but microplastics
Speaker 1: has to be at the top of that list.
Speaker 2: Are you able to explain why it's.
Speaker 4: Very difficult to measure microplastics in water?
Speaker 5: I can say, but there are studies that have found
Speaker 5: just millions of them, you know, or at least hundreds
Speaker 5: of thousands in one liter.
Speaker 4: That's a lot.
Speaker 5: And I don't think you need a toxicologist to tell
Speaker 5: you that you don't want to be drinking water which
Speaker 5: has a quarter of a million microplastics in it. And
Speaker 5: the other thing about bottled water is it's usually tap
Speaker 5: waters from somewhere else, and it costs like two thousand
Speaker 5: times more than tap water, and we buy it because
Speaker 5: it's convenient, and sometimes we think it tastes good or
Speaker 5: it's better quality than our tap water. But I think
Speaker 5: you know, if you really want to have good drinking
Speaker 5: water which you can bring with you in your own
Speaker 5: bottle that doesn't have to be plastic, you can also
Speaker 5: look into filtering water at home. We're not very much money.
Speaker 5: The price that you pay for bottled water for a
Speaker 5: whole year will certainly pay for for a filtration unit.
Speaker 3: Of course, as I'm hearing you speak, I have all
Speaker 3: these images rushing to my mind of all the microplastics
Speaker 3: I've engaged with over the course of my thirty seven
Speaker 3: years on this earth. And there's one scene in particular
Speaker 3: that I'm thinking about where I visited a recycling plant
Speaker 3: when I was a journalist and was watching the process
Speaker 3: of breaking down all these plastic bottles into small, tiny
Speaker 3: pieces to then have them remade into new products. But
Speaker 3: when I'm hearing you speak, I'm questioning the impact of
Speaker 3: microplastics on recycling and sustainability efforts around the world. We
Speaker 3: kind of were under this impression that recycling and breaking
Speaker 3: down plastic and creating new products was a good thing.
Speaker 3: But what I'm hearing you say is that that's probably
Speaker 3: not a good thing.
Speaker 5: Recycling is a tricky one because it can work for
Speaker 5: certain types of plastics, like food contact material plastics which
Speaker 5: don't have a lot of additives in them. But it's
Speaker 5: very very tricky to bring back used plastic, know what's
Speaker 5: in it, and make something else out of it.
Speaker 4: It's also takes a lot of energy.
Speaker 5: There's a lot of worry with manufacturing that there might
Speaker 5: be some residual additives in it, so that's why a
Speaker 5: lot of people don't want to use that. And the
Speaker 5: other problem is that the material itself is not as functional,
Speaker 5: so to make something completely out of recycled plastic is
Speaker 5: really difficult, so you always have to add what we
Speaker 5: call virgin plastics with it in order to get functionality.
Speaker 5: So actually I think the things that nature recycles. I
Speaker 5: think nature is really good at recycling its own stuff.
Speaker 5: And when we are making our new.
Speaker 4: Fangled plastics, we have to also think about how it
Speaker 4: could be recycled too, And if we're not good at
Speaker 4: recycling it, maybe we should use a lot less of it.
Speaker 5: And of course there's some really good applications of plastic.
Speaker 5: We're using plastic just to do this interview, but I
Speaker 5: think there's a lot of plastic applications that are kind
Speaker 5: of low hanging fruit, you know, the things that are
Speaker 5: single use, and that there is a really good alternative
Speaker 5: for a lot of things are just overpackaged.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 5: If we're eating a lot of processed food, then there's
Speaker 5: extra packaging, you know. But if you buy the fruits
Speaker 5: and vegetables, they're packaged by nature, you know, and those
Speaker 5: those packages are going to be recycled also by nature
Speaker 5: very easily.
Speaker 3: Well, doctor Leslie, we have not stopped peppering you with questions,
Speaker 3: so clearly there's a lot of interest in this topic.
Speaker 3: And also there are so many opinions out there are
Speaker 3: going to be hard to know who to trust on this.
Speaker 3: So with that in mind, will you help us bust
Speaker 3: some microplastic myths I'll try.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 3: First up, we've been hearing that BPA free products are
Speaker 3: safer than traditional plastics.
Speaker 2: Is that true?
Speaker 5: Well, my big question when they say it's BPA free,
Speaker 5: I say, well, I want to know, not what's not
Speaker 5: in it.
Speaker 4: I want to know what is in it.
Speaker 5: And sometimes BPA has been taken out, but they put
Speaker 5: in something that's very very similar to BPA that also
Speaker 5: has similar toxicity.
Speaker 4: So BPA is something.
Speaker 5: You don't want to have in your plastic, in your
Speaker 5: water bottles or in your baby bottles. It's another endocrine
Speaker 5: disrupting chemical, but you don't want them to replace it
Speaker 5: like a chemical substitution that's just as bad as what
Speaker 5: you used to have, like jumping from the frying pan
Speaker 5: into the fire.
Speaker 2: Are all plastics created equal?
Speaker 5: No, There's some that are more environmentally damaging or more
Speaker 5: dangerous to your health than others.
Speaker 4: And you know, you have food.
Speaker 5: Contact plastic, which they really try to make non toxic,
Speaker 5: but then you have some types of plastic that not
Speaker 5: paying attention to toxicity at all, and they really go
Speaker 5: for it. And so there's definitely differences. There's at least
Speaker 5: ten thousand different types of plastic on the market, different recipes.
Speaker 1: While we're on the topic of food, there's also been
Speaker 1: concerns of microplastics in seafood, and especially shellfish, because we
Speaker 1: usually eat the entire animal, microplastics included. Unfortunately, one study
Speaker 1: found that people who eat large amounts of seafood and
Speaker 1: jest up to eleven thousand microplastic particles a year.
Speaker 2: Should we avoid seafood.
Speaker 5: Well, yeah, and seafood especially filter feeders like muscles and oysters.
Speaker 5: They can really filter out a lot of microplastics. And indeed,
Speaker 5: you're eating the whole animal, and if it hasn't had
Speaker 5: a chance to get rid of its guts, you're going
Speaker 5: to have some microplastics in it. So it's I think,
Speaker 5: you know, you can enjoy seafood. Sometimes there's also other
Speaker 5: issues about with different things in the sea with seafood,
Speaker 5: like mercury. Sometimes depends where the seafood comes from, and
Speaker 5: if it's from a relatively clean area, then it's fine.
Speaker 5: I think the study you mean was a Belgian study
Speaker 5: which was in a not very clean area of the
Speaker 5: North Sea. So you know, everything in moderation. I would say,
Speaker 5: what about.
Speaker 2: The clothes in our closets.
Speaker 3: There's a good chance the majority of my closet right
Speaker 3: now is made up of plastic fabrics that contain plastic
Speaker 3: like polyester and nylon. Should we be avoiding synthetic fabrics altogether.
Speaker 5: Yeah, Synthetic fabrics are a really good source of plastic exposure.
Speaker 5: Your clothing is next to your skin, so that's your
Speaker 5: biggest organ So any chemicals that are in those fabrics,
Speaker 5: especially when they're new, will be leaching out in into
Speaker 5: your skin, and microplastics will be coming off with the
Speaker 5: microfibers with wear and tear, so you can breed them
Speaker 5: in and they can also enter the wastewater systems and
Speaker 5: your surface water with the.
Speaker 4: Laundering of them.
Speaker 5: So if you want to reduce your microplastic posure through
Speaker 5: your clothes, you can just think about next time you
Speaker 5: go shopping if you can find something that has more
Speaker 5: natural ingredients in it, so cotton or linen or wool clothing.
Speaker 5: I would personally avoid nylon. There's also research being done
Speaker 5: here in the Netherlands about nylon, and this was with
Speaker 5: lung cells and the lung cells really didn't like to
Speaker 5: be near the nylon, so when they were growing in
Speaker 5: the laboratory on their own, and there was nylon fibers
Speaker 5: put in there, or even water where nylon fibers had
Speaker 5: been present, that was enough to stop them from growing.
Speaker 5: And it doesn't say you're going to get sick, but
Speaker 5: it's just another signal that I think, you know, no
Speaker 5: paralysis by analysis. I just want to do something now.
Speaker 5: If I don't need this product, I'm not going to
Speaker 5: bring it into my home. And the other thing about toxicology,
Speaker 5: which I should say which might be comforting, is we
Speaker 5: always say the dose makes the poison. So a little
Speaker 5: bit of poison is manageable, and it's only during a
Speaker 5: cross exposure to to something that's really toxic are you
Speaker 5: going to really see health effects. So I think it's
Speaker 5: it's also a case of do you feel like changing
Speaker 5: or does it not matter too much to you? You know,
Speaker 5: And for the things you feel like changing, it's going
Speaker 5: to be easy to find an alternative. It's just kind
Speaker 5: of raise your awareness first, and then that affects all
Speaker 5: the choices that you make.
Speaker 2: Here on in Okay, what about makeup?
Speaker 3: How bad is the microplastic content in lipstick, lipbalm, mascara,
Speaker 3: even eyeliner.
Speaker 5: Women who wear lipstick apparently eat several kilos of it
Speaker 5: during a lifetime. So if there's plastic in there, and
Speaker 5: I have looked at that and also Lipbam, there's a
Speaker 5: lot of plastic components in that. So if you can
Speaker 5: find brands that are more from the natural cosmetics lines,
Speaker 5: then you will be reducing your amounts of exposure, especially
Speaker 5: toothpaste and lipstick and lip ball, but also anything that
Speaker 5: to put on your face. We know that microplastics have
Speaker 5: a really hard time going through the skin, but the
Speaker 5: chemicals that are in microplastics will be able to be
Speaker 5: absorbed by the skin in many cases.
Speaker 1: I just want to share a resource because it's the
Speaker 1: only thing that's helped me. Ewg dot org, slash skin deep.
Speaker 1: You can put in all of your ingredients, brands, personal
Speaker 1: care products and see all of that stuff and try
Speaker 1: and make a swap because it's really hard to look
Speaker 1: things up product by product without it. This is my
Speaker 1: last question for you. You are probably the only expert that
Speaker 1: I have heard that makes this feel less overwhelming, and
Speaker 1: I can imagine that people listening are still going to
Speaker 1: walk away feeling a little doom and gloom. Here as
Speaker 1: someone who's knee deep in the research. How do you
Speaker 1: remain optimistic on this.
Speaker 5: Well, one of the advices that I got from someone
Speaker 5: was to never be a pessimist, because pessimists never get
Speaker 5: anything done. So he recommended being an optimist. And I
Speaker 5: also do really do have a vision for how we
Speaker 5: can do things better for our planet and for our
Speaker 5: kids and for our own health.
Speaker 4: And I'm I.
Speaker 5: Think it's it's really fun to just stop and think
Speaker 5: about the world that I want, thinking about when I
Speaker 5: wake up, where do I want to wake up, who's there,
Speaker 5: what stuff is there? What am I going to do today?
Speaker 5: What am I going to do this evening? What am
Speaker 5: I going to do this weekend? All of these things
Speaker 5: that you know, we don't often stop to think about
Speaker 5: what we really want, what kind of materials do we want?
Speaker 5: What kind of buildings are we living in and working in.
Speaker 5: You can really have a wonderful time with yourself just
Speaker 5: being quiet and thinking about how it would feel to
Speaker 5: live in that world. That's the first step, and then
Speaker 5: you can think of what can I do today that's
Speaker 5: a little bit like that world, you know, And I
Speaker 5: see a lot of people all doing that, taking small
Speaker 5: steps because it's too overwhelming to get it all done
Speaker 5: even this year. You know, it's just it's a question
Speaker 5: of small steps with a real intention, using your imagination
Speaker 5: to go in the direction that you really feel good
Speaker 5: about going in. Make it fun, and you're not going
Speaker 5: to enjoy anything any less. You're going to enjoy things
Speaker 5: more when you're more aligned with what you really want
Speaker 5: in deep in your heart. And that's something that we
Speaker 5: don't really talk about very much. It's kind of uncomfortable
Speaker 5: because we think, well, what I want is so far
Speaker 5: from what I have, or all sorts of things that
Speaker 5: can make us anxious. But really go back into the
Speaker 5: vision of your future, the way you want your.
Speaker 4: Today to be, and see how far you can get.
Speaker 4: And it's a wonderful process and I think.
Speaker 5: If anybody out there listening will try it. It's very
Speaker 5: empowering because you're not outsourcing your power to somebody else,
Speaker 5: some company who has to reformulate, some advertiser who has
Speaker 5: to advertise something else to you, or to the government
Speaker 5: that has to fix everything, but really just in your
Speaker 5: own individual life doing it your way.
Speaker 3: Well, you really are changing the world with your intentionality,
Speaker 3: optimism and insights.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, doctor Leslie.
Speaker 4: Thank you too.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much.
Speaker 3: Doctor Heather Leslie is a scientist and leading expert in
Speaker 3: microplastics based in Amsterdam.
Speaker 2: That's it for today's show.
Speaker 1: Tomorrow, we're joined by the hilarious author, comedian and TV
Speaker 1: host Chelsea Handler. Her new book, I'll Have What She's
Speaker 1: Having is out next Tuesday, February twenty fifth.
Speaker 3: Join the conversation using hashtag the bright Side and connect
Speaker 3: with us on social media at Hello Sunshine on Instagram
Speaker 3: and at the bright Side Pod on TikTok Oh. And
Speaker 3: feel free to tag us at simone Voice and at
Speaker 3: Danielle Robe.
Speaker 1: And then follow the bright Side on the iHeartRadio app,
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 2: See you tomorrow, folks, Keep looking on the bright side.