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Speaker 1: Conversations on life, style, beauty, and relationships. It's the Velvet's

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Speaker 1: Edge podcast with Kelly Henderson. Connor Beating is here the

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Speaker 1: founder of Man Talks. So I like to tell the

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Speaker 1: listeners a little bit about who they are listening to.

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Speaker 1: So can you give people kind of just the backstory

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Speaker 1: of how you got into what you're doing now? And

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Speaker 1: what is man Talks? Oh? Boy? Yeah, I mean the

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Speaker 1: the like short version is that I had a lot

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Speaker 1: going in my life. He was traveling the world, had

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Speaker 1: a great relationship, decent career going, and I was pretty miserable.

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Speaker 1: I was pretty out of control. Um it was you know,

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Speaker 1: behind the scenes. It was like one of those things

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Speaker 1: where if you met me on paper, it looked like

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Speaker 1: my life was great, but behind the scenes, I was

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Speaker 1: a disaster. You know, lots of cheating and infidelity and

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Speaker 1: drugs and alcohol. And I bottomed out, you know, I

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Speaker 1: hit rock bottom. And I didn't want people to know

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Speaker 1: because I bought into this. You know that what I

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Speaker 1: call the one rule of men, which is, you know,

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Speaker 1: if you're a man who's struggling, don't talk about it.

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Speaker 1: And um, and so I didn't. I moved all my

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Speaker 1: ship into storage, and I lived out the back of

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Speaker 1: my car for a few weeks. And you know, in

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Speaker 1: that moment, I kind of realized that how I was

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Speaker 1: living my life wasn't working. You know, this chameleon who

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Speaker 1: was trying to gain approval and validation and love and

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Speaker 1: acceptance from everybody that he met by changing who I was,

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Speaker 1: you know, by adapting different sort of personalities in order

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Speaker 1: to sort of get love from people. It wasn't working.

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Speaker 1: And um, so I just started to connect with other

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Speaker 1: men in my life. And I found a mentor. Thankfully,

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Speaker 1: he was already in my life. He's quite a bit older,

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Speaker 1: and he took me under his wing and and I

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Speaker 1: started to work with him. And he was well versed

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Speaker 1: and young and psychology and cognitive behavioral therapy and NLP

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Speaker 1: and Buddhism and and so I ended up spending like

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Speaker 1: two and a half years mentoring with him, like apprenticing

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Speaker 1: with him, and uh. And during that time, I started

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Speaker 1: to connect with other men in my life, and I

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Speaker 1: started to realize that a lot of guys were doing

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Speaker 1: the same thing that I was. You know, on the

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Speaker 1: outside things looked shiny and great, but behind the scenes,

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Speaker 1: ship was a mess. You know, It's almost like seeing

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Speaker 1: a beautiful car that is pristine on the outside, but

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Speaker 1: then on the inside, you know, the engines rusted in,

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Speaker 1: the frame is busted up and um, and so a

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Speaker 1: lot of them in my life. You know. I started

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Speaker 1: to realize that I only sort of knew them, I

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Speaker 1: knew the stuff that they wanted me to know. And

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Speaker 1: I realized how shallow and hollow a lot of my

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Speaker 1: friendships were. And it hit home in a this is

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Speaker 1: how maybe sort of just wrap up here, but it

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Speaker 1: hit home in a conversation with my close friends after,

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Speaker 1: you know, I bought himed out and I told him

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Speaker 1: everything that had been going on, you know, the mess

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Speaker 1: that I had created in my life. And I probably

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Speaker 1: talked at him for like a good half an hour

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Speaker 1: and just told him everything that was going on. It

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Speaker 1: was just he was very, uh, you know, cathartic in

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Speaker 1: a way. And then there was just this silence for

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Speaker 1: a few minutes, and I could see him sort of

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Speaker 1: grappling with something pretty big, and he looked at me

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Speaker 1: and he thanked me for sharing with him and just

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Speaker 1: being honest, and he proceeded to tell me that he

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Speaker 1: had tried to commit suicide about a month and a

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Speaker 1: half before, and I realized in that moment that I

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Speaker 1: knew everything about this guy. I thought I knew everything

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Speaker 1: about this guy. You know, he was one of my

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Speaker 1: closest friends. I knew what he liked to drink. I

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Speaker 1: knew this, you know, the type of scotch that he liked,

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Speaker 1: and the TV shows that he liked to watch. And

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Speaker 1: I knew his personality in and out. I knew the

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Speaker 1: type of women that he liked to date. You know,

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Speaker 1: we had great conversations, but I didn't know that he

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Speaker 1: was so unhappy and struggling so bad that he tried

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Speaker 1: to take his own life. And he didn't know that

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Speaker 1: my life was such a mess behind the scenes either.

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Speaker 1: And I started to see this pattern in so many

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Speaker 1: men's lives, where they're living on a kind of island,

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Speaker 1: you know, where they're trying to white knuckle uh their

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Speaker 1: way a lone ranger, their way through life, and it's

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Speaker 1: very lonely. And so there was something in that moment

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Speaker 1: that like clicked in me that was like, you can

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Speaker 1: do something about this. You know, you can change the

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Speaker 1: conversation that men have, You can change the dynamics and

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Speaker 1: the relationships that men have. That's possible because I saw

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Speaker 1: it happen in real time in my conversation with my buddy.

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Speaker 1: And he's still very alive today, and he's thriving, and

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Speaker 1: he's doing very well, and we have a very beautiful

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Speaker 1: relation ship. It's incredible. And and so I started to

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Speaker 1: change the way that I interacted with the men in

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Speaker 1: my life, and I got honest with them and transparent,

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Speaker 1: and I told them the ship that was going on

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Speaker 1: behind the scenes. And as a result, men just started

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Speaker 1: to slowly be honest back. You know, they started to

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Speaker 1: reveal the stuff that they didn't want society or their

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Speaker 1: girl friends, or their bosses or their families to know,

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Speaker 1: that they didn't want other men to know because they

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Speaker 1: thought that it made them weaker or less of a man.

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Speaker 1: And in doing so, what I found was that men

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Speaker 1: really came alive, you know, they really started to thrive

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Speaker 1: when they didn't have to hide these parts of them. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think it's funny because you've now created this business

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Speaker 1: called man talks, and that, to me is such a contradiction,

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Speaker 1: like those two words together, because most men that I've experienced,

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Speaker 1: especially when it comes to what you're talking about, like

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Speaker 1: the deep inner workings and the truth behind what's actually happening. Um,

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Speaker 1: they have a hard time talking. That's like, that's the

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Speaker 1: one thing that I feel like is a huge obstacle.

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Speaker 1: And I do resonate though with what you said. I

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Speaker 1: think a lot of us want to present you know,

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Speaker 1: like we have these um personas or especially with the

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Speaker 1: social media world, it's like we've created so much in

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Speaker 1: our society that thrives on this presentation of ourselves. And

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Speaker 1: so when you actually know what's going on with someone,

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Speaker 1: it's almost uncomfortable. You're like, whoa are you okay? Um?

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Speaker 1: And we've gotten like to where we can't be not

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Speaker 1: okay um. But do you think that that is tougher

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Speaker 1: for men than it is for women to just admit

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Speaker 1: like they're not okay, they don't have it all figured out,

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Speaker 1: there's real ship going on that they're not addressing. Like,

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Speaker 1: is that just a real struggle for men? I think

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Speaker 1: generally yes, I think as a general statement, yes, I

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Speaker 1: think that culturally, socially, um, you know, men are expected

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Speaker 1: to to sort of hold that stuff down on a

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Speaker 1: little bit more, you know, and and we can sort

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Speaker 1: of point fingers in all kinds of directions about what

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Speaker 1: the causality of that is. But I think that generally speaking,

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Speaker 1: in our modern culture, not necessarily historically, but in our

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Speaker 1: modern culture, women certainly have a much stronger and more

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Speaker 1: robust community than men. Now women have their own challenges,

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Speaker 1: you know, with the emergence of social media and the

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Speaker 1: and the impacts of that on young girls. But but

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Speaker 1: certainly for men, um you know, post industrial we we

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Speaker 1: have disbanded the kind of close kinship that we used

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Speaker 1: to carry, you know, and and the and the camaraderie

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Speaker 1: and the brotherhood that that we used to have, and

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Speaker 1: it's and and so you see a lot of men

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Speaker 1: that have friends, for sure, but if you really dug in,

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Speaker 1: a lot of those guys don't have other men that

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Speaker 1: they can talk to about the real challenges of their lives.

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Speaker 1: You know, that the childhood abuse that they experienced, the

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Speaker 1: problems that they're having with their marriage, or you know

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Speaker 1: the fact that they're you know, their parents has just

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Speaker 1: been diagnosed with some form of you know, terminal cancer,

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Speaker 1: and really talk about the emotional weight of what's happening

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Speaker 1: in their lives. And so men have a very particular

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Speaker 1: relationship with power and powerlessness and socially it's not um

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Speaker 1: at all. I don't know exactly how to like put

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Speaker 1: this forward, but I think that you know, men are

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Speaker 1: pressured a little bit too from other men and from women. Right,

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Speaker 1: it's a collective thing, but pressured a little bit to

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Speaker 1: just figure it out, you know, to deal with it,

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Speaker 1: to sort of suck it up. And and there's a

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Speaker 1: ton of reasons for that. Right, We've had to go

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Speaker 1: fight wars, We've had to We've gone and done, you know,

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Speaker 1: atrocious things throughout history. We've we've also sacrificed ourselves in

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Speaker 1: order to build the world that we live in. You know,

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Speaker 1: if you if you look at a lot of the

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Speaker 1: infrastructure that's been put in place, you know, men have

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Speaker 1: built that. You know, they've built the roads, they've built

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Speaker 1: the factories, they've built the things that allow our world

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Speaker 1: to function. And there's a price to pay for that,

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Speaker 1: you know, and for good or for worse, you know,

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Speaker 1: whether it's the right thing or the wrong thing, or

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Speaker 1: however we want to put that, but there's been a

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Speaker 1: price that's that's been paid for that. And so I

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Speaker 1: think a lot of men struggle to find that sense

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Speaker 1: of closeness, but they really want it, you know, they

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Speaker 1: really want to be able to feel connected to something

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Speaker 1: larger than themselves. And you know, I think that the

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Speaker 1: way of men uh and and the sort of essence

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Speaker 1: of masculinity is meant to be communal, you know, it's

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Speaker 1: not meant to be in isolation. And it's only recently

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Speaker 1: within the last sort of hundred years that we've idolized

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Speaker 1: this lone ranger archetype. You know, Historically, men ventured off

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Speaker 1: together and learned how to be men together. And I

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Speaker 1: think there's a resurgence of that that has started to

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Speaker 1: manifest again within our culture, where there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: men realizing that they don't know how to be good

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Speaker 1: at being a man. They don't know how to be

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Speaker 1: good at being a father or a husband, and so

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Speaker 1: they're searching. It's like, well, how do I do this?

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Speaker 1: You know, like what am I missing? And maybe that's

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Speaker 1: because they didn't have a father figure, or they didn't

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Speaker 1: have good men in their lives, or they've been carrying

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Speaker 1: pain that no one has taught them how to to

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Speaker 1: deal with to carry, but they're in there, they're in search.

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Speaker 1: So again, maybe a little bit bigger of an an

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Speaker 1: answer than than necessary, But I feel like it's it's helpful.

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Speaker 1: I want to come back. You mentioned the dynamics or

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Speaker 1: the battle between power and powerlessness that I'm fascinated with.

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Speaker 1: I want to circle back to that. But yesterday I

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Speaker 1: posted this on my Instagram, but on your website on

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Speaker 1: man talks dot Com, you say it's not therapy, it's training,

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Speaker 1: And I literally I was like, oh my god, like

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Speaker 1: I was taken aback. I could not think of something

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Speaker 1: more hot than a guy just like in training. Like

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Speaker 1: with It's like what you just described though, like this

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Speaker 1: group of men learning how to do ship Like to me,

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Speaker 1: that is like, oh my god, that is so hot. Um.

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Speaker 1: But I feel like what I also heard and what

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Speaker 1: you just said is the fact that maybe they don't

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Speaker 1: know how to do like men don't know how to

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Speaker 1: do things, bringing in a lot of shame instead of

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Speaker 1: being like, oh, I'm going to learn how to go

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Speaker 1: do that? Like is that a dynamic you face with

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Speaker 1: people coming to you a lot? Yeah, there's I mean,

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Speaker 1: there's there's a good question. There's a few parts in

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Speaker 1: there that I think are important. One is, you know,

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Speaker 1: there is a stigma around therapy and it's not super

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Speaker 1: appealing to most men. It's just not. It wasn't appealing

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Speaker 1: to me. It's not something I wanted to go do

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Speaker 1: generally because it's for us as men, it's a sign

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Speaker 1: that there's something broken, right. It's like why do you

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Speaker 1: take the car to the mechanic. You take the car

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Speaker 1: to the mechanic when when ship's not working properly right,

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Speaker 1: And so if you're going to a therapist, it's a

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Speaker 1: sign that like something's broken and you need help fixing

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Speaker 1: it and you haven't been able to figure it out yourself.

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Speaker 1: So that's that's kind of the approach that a lot

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Speaker 1: of men have, for better or for worse. It's not

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Speaker 1: you know, we could discuss whether that's good or bad.

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Speaker 1: But I think taking a different approach knowing that for

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Speaker 1: a lot of men, therapy, you know, sitting and talking

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Speaker 1: it's not appealing for them. But what is appealing is

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Speaker 1: a more masculine oriented kind of like you're gonna train,

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Speaker 1: you're gonna learn ship, you know, just like you would

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Speaker 1: if you were going to train your body or you

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Speaker 1: gonna train your mind for you know, to learn a

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Speaker 1: specific task. And I think what's what's real is that

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Speaker 1: things like self compassion are a skill. There are a skill,

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Speaker 1: and so many of us have not been taught the

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Speaker 1: skill to be compassionate towards ourselves, and so we beat

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Speaker 1: the ships. And I think that that approach is much

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Speaker 1: more palatable for us as men to be able to say,

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Speaker 1: there's certain skills I just haven't hot in life, you know.

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Speaker 1: I haven't been taught how to be compassionate towards myself,

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Speaker 1: or how to be in relationship and communicate properly or

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Speaker 1: initiate you know, sex with my partner or whatever that is. Right,

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Speaker 1: there's just certain skills that we haven't learned. There's no

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Speaker 1: shame in that, and even dealing with shame as a skill,

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Speaker 1: you know. And so so I think when we take

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Speaker 1: that approach, it's it's less about trying to deal with

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Speaker 1: the stigma of therapy, and it's more about speaking to

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Speaker 1: men though directly, you know, and speaking to in a

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Speaker 1: way that is uh, that is meaningful to us, you know,

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Speaker 1: where it's like, oh, yeah, I actually I do want

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Speaker 1: to go learn skills. And I can see how there's

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Speaker 1: a return on investment to learning some of these skills

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Speaker 1: in my relationship, in my work environment, in my life.

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Speaker 1: I can see how my life is going to improve,

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Speaker 1: Like the masculine essence within us wants freedom, but it

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Speaker 1: also wants to expand, and there's a deep craving within

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Speaker 1: men to expand, to be better, to be sigger than

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Speaker 1: we currently are right now. And and how we do

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Speaker 1: that is by learning skills, right by learning new skills

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Speaker 1: that we didn't have before. So yeah, I just wanted

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Speaker 1: to drop that in there. Yeah, I think it's interesting because, um,

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Speaker 1: I've been kind of on my own healing journey for

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Speaker 1: about a decade now, and one of the programming things

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Speaker 1: that I've really had to work through of like letting go,

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Speaker 1: was just expecting myself how to know things that I

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Speaker 1: had never been taught how to do, Like I just

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Speaker 1: have this idea that I should walk in because I'm

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm forty now, but like at the time,

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Speaker 1: I was like, oh, I'm thirty whatever, I should know

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Speaker 1: how to do this, And there was so much shame

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Speaker 1: for me in admitting that I didn't, that I would

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Speaker 1: pretend like I did, you know, fake it till you

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Speaker 1: make it kind of thing, And like the order I get,

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Speaker 1: the more I'm like, it's okay not to know how

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Speaker 1: to do things. And actually the greatest strength that we

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Speaker 1: have is walking into a scenario and be like I

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Speaker 1: don't know how to do this, Like, but I'm willing

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Speaker 1: to learn and taking the steps to learn a new

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Speaker 1: thing or learn a new tool, And like, you know,

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Speaker 1: our parents all did the base they could, but maybe

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Speaker 1: they didn't give us a lot of the tools that

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Speaker 1: we need to be successful adults. And so like, I

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Speaker 1: don't know, like I feel okay now, I guess leaning

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Speaker 1: into that, but I'm wondering if there's a difference, like

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Speaker 1: if it's easier for me as a woman to just

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Speaker 1: sort of admit I don't know how to do this,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to go ask for help, then would be

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Speaker 1: for a man, because that seems like some of the

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Speaker 1: dynamics have faced in my relationships with men. Yeah, so

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Speaker 1: this is this is a this is like a bigger

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Speaker 1: question that does tie into power and powerlessness. But I

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Speaker 1: think the way that I would approach this is for

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Speaker 1: most men against socially culturally, even within our current culture

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Speaker 1: right now, our our value is often tethered to our competency,

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Speaker 1: our capability. Right how capable are you as a man

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Speaker 1: to perform a certain task or duty? How capable are

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Speaker 1: you as a man to acquire resources. How capable are

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Speaker 1: you of you know, developing certain skill sets, and so

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Speaker 1: when a man isn't doesn't feel very capable at something, right,

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Speaker 1: So just imagine, you know, a guy gets into a

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Speaker 1: relationship at thirty for the first time, or you know,

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Speaker 1: he's he's twenty one or twenty two years old, you've

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Speaker 1: never had sex before, and there's a ton of pressure

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Speaker 1: because that man feels like he should be capable at it,

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Speaker 1: he should be very competent, but he has no real experience,

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Speaker 1: and so it creates this sort of pressure within his

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Speaker 1: system where he's like, oh, I should be good at this,

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Speaker 1: I should be great at this, but I haven't had

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Speaker 1: any experience at it. And so a lot of guys, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think I think it is different for

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Speaker 1: women because there isn't that sort of social pressure, cultural

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Speaker 1: um narrative that ties that ties worth and value to competence.

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Speaker 1: And for men in masculinity, historically that has been true. Right.

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Speaker 1: The more capable and the more competent a man is,

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Speaker 1: the more value he has socially and culturally, and the

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Speaker 1: more he's actually desired by women. So, if you're a

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Speaker 1: very capable and competent man in business as an example,

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Speaker 1: or a very capable and competent and relationship. You're very desirable, right,

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Speaker 1: You're wanted by women. And so men have organized themselves

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Speaker 1: in some capacity to to like we you know, we

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Speaker 1: see that. We're like, Okay, you want competence, got it.

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Speaker 1: I gonna be very competent. And that causes all kinds

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Speaker 1: of problems where you know, we hide in securities. We

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Speaker 1: don't want to talk about not feeling competent because all

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Speaker 1: of that. As soon as we don't feel competent, we

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Speaker 1: often feel powerless. And you know Richard Rore, who's a

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Speaker 1: Franciscan monk, very interesting character. He's got a great quote

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Speaker 1: because he's worked with a lot of men over the decades,

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Speaker 1: and he says, unless a male, unless the man is

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Speaker 1: is brought on the journey of powerlessness, he will always

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Speaker 1: abuse power. Right, So, unless a man is brought on

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Speaker 1: the journey of powerlessness, he will always abuse power. And

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Speaker 1: so we as men. If you look at initiation, these

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Speaker 1: types of experiences that have been baked in the culture

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Speaker 1: throughout history, they were generally meant to do a couple

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Speaker 1: of things. One, you know, put men in put men

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Speaker 1: into a contact with death in some form to bring

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Speaker 1: him into a situation of powerlessness where he had to

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Speaker 1: he got to experience something bigger than him and he

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Speaker 1: couldn't conquer, that he couldn't defeat, that he couldn't overcome.

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Speaker 1: And that does something to us as men where we

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Speaker 1: start to reconcile with and understand that the power that

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Speaker 1: we hold physically, mentally, um within society, within culture, that

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Speaker 1: there's a real responsibility to that, that we actually have

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Speaker 1: a very real responsibility to learn how to um stewart

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Speaker 1: that power in some way to be capable at um

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Speaker 1: understanding our power and its effects within culture. So again,

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Speaker 1: maybe a bigger answer, but but I think that that's

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Speaker 1: those are some of the things that play into it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean there's so many things. I feel like we

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Speaker 1: could tangent off on that because it's like, as we

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Speaker 1: were talking, I was thinking to myself, it is true,

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Speaker 1: and I'm not even sure I was aware of this

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Speaker 1: own thought process in my head, but you know, I

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Speaker 1: really do gravitate towards a man who can lead, and

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Speaker 1: that that's very attractive to me as a woman. And

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Speaker 1: so and that even goes in sex, like you kind

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Speaker 1: of want to be let or we like I do

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Speaker 1: as a feminine, natured person. And so it's interesting because

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Speaker 1: I don't. I don't think I really identified the pressure

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Speaker 1: that that must be before you were just explaining it

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Speaker 1: that way, because it's the same as like everyone's human

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Speaker 1: and we're all coming into this world knowing nothing, and

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Speaker 1: so then you know, we have these skill sets, but

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Speaker 1: also we have to learn, and so some of us

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Speaker 1: again were given tools, some of us weren't. And so

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Speaker 1: I do I'm hearing the pressure of that in such

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Speaker 1: a different way. How do you how would you say,

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Speaker 1: as a man like you leaned into that and taken

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Speaker 1: on the responsibility of that while also combating your own

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Speaker 1: shame for not doing it perfectly. Mm hmmm, Yeah. I

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Speaker 1: think over the years, I've started to see that as

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Speaker 1: something very rewarding. You know, the twenty one year old

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Speaker 1: than me, I didn't want any responsibility, right, didn't care

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Speaker 1: about being capable, didn't care about leading, didn't care about

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Speaker 1: any of those things. Um, because I was very immature,

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Speaker 1: you know, and I and that that responsibility felt restrictive

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Speaker 1: to me. It didn't feel like freedom. It felt like

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Speaker 1: it felt like a prison, you know. And I didn't

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Speaker 1: want that responsibility, and so over the years, I've started

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Speaker 1: to be and have a different relationship to responsibility itself,

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Speaker 1: have a different responsibility to being capable and being competent

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Speaker 1: and being in leadership positions and finding that I really

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Speaker 1: love that, you know, I really enjoy that, and I

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Speaker 1: and I see the value in it, you know. And

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Speaker 1: there's still times where I'm like, I don't want this

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Speaker 1: responsibility and I don't want to be a voice in

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Speaker 1: men's space or leading men or supporting them in their

387
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Speaker 1: marriages or doing anything. There's still times where that comes up.

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Speaker 1: But for the most part, I've I've found that when

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Speaker 1: we find something that asks us to develop a certain

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Speaker 1: level of competence where we are forced to lead ourselves,

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Speaker 1: forget everybody else, forget relationships, forget the world, where we're

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Speaker 1: forced to lead us in an effective manner, that there's

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Speaker 1: a really deep purpose in that, a very very deep purpose.

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Speaker 1: It actually gives our life meaning, right, It gives our

395
00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:11,040
Speaker 1: life meaning because we start to say, not why am

396
00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:15,399
Speaker 1: I here? But and and not not? Where is not?

397
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Speaker 1: Where is purpose? But where do I actually derive a

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Speaker 1: sense of meaning? And generally speaking, we find meaning as

399
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Speaker 1: human beings by being competent at something that is a

400
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Speaker 1: contribution to society, to the greater good, to other people.

401
00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:32,960
Speaker 1: And so when we as men can start to see that,

402
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Speaker 1: there's a sense of meaning, a sense of purpose, a

403
00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:41,240
Speaker 1: sense of fulfillment in developing competence and developing um skills

404
00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:47,440
Speaker 1: that allow us to contribute to our kids, to our partners,

405
00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:51,280
Speaker 1: to community, to our business, to society. There's something richly

406
00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:54,320
Speaker 1: rewarding in that that brings our soul online a little

407
00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:57,240
Speaker 1: bit more, you know, that brings our hearts alive, because

408
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Speaker 1: we feel like we are contributing to the greater hole

409
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Speaker 1: rather than just sort of like a wash in the ocean.

410
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Speaker 1: You know. So, how do I deal with the shame

411
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Speaker 1: of not not being having not been there? I mean,

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Speaker 1: that was a long that was a long journey. You know.

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Speaker 1: I think I did shadow work. I learned about young

414
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Speaker 1: in psychology. I mean, you know, I I think it's

415
00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:26,040
Speaker 1: I think all of that happened in the process of

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Speaker 1: of really trying to find a sense of meaning in

417
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Speaker 1: my life and trying to find a sense of where

418
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Speaker 1: do I not fit in, but where do I want

419
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Speaker 1: to contribute? And that's oftentimes where a man is going

420
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Speaker 1: to really feel like he fits in is where he's

421
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Speaker 1: being of contribution and where he feels very capable of

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Speaker 1: being of contribution. And that's valuable, you know, there's there's

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Speaker 1: again there's something um appealing about it, and there's something

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Speaker 1: valuable in it for for us as men, and and

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Speaker 1: the shame of not having it is like, you know,

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Speaker 1: admit that you feel ashamed that you that you don't

427
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:09,080
Speaker 1: feel like you contribute. And I had to do that,

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Speaker 1: you know, I was like, I don't feel ten twelve

429
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:13,800
Speaker 1: years ago, I was like, I don't feel like I

430
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:17,879
Speaker 1: give anything to the world really, you know, and I

431
00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:20,480
Speaker 1: don't feel like I'm adding value to the people around me.

432
00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:23,280
Speaker 1: And I feel like I'm taking, you know, And I was,

433
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:25,639
Speaker 1: I really was. I was just taking from the people

434
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:28,760
Speaker 1: around me constantly, and I wasn't giving back to them,

435
00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:32,159
Speaker 1: and I wasn't contributing, and and so you know, the

436
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:34,520
Speaker 1: shame of that was hard, and it was challenging to

437
00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:40,520
Speaker 1: be to admit the truth, you know, that that who

438
00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:42,960
Speaker 1: I was and who I had become as a man

439
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:46,879
Speaker 1: was somebody that wasn't adding value to other people's lives,

440
00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:52,480
Speaker 1: that was generally taking, manipulating, lying, cheating, and to come

441
00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:56,119
Speaker 1: not really too sure how to phrase this necessarily, but

442
00:24:56,119 --> 00:25:00,840
Speaker 1: but to center myself around the truth that not only

443
00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:03,480
Speaker 1: was that true, but I wanted to shift it, you know,

444
00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 1: I wanted to change it, and that that was possible

445
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:08,560
Speaker 1: that I could be, that I could be someone who

446
00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:12,679
Speaker 1: could contribute, and I could be somebody who offered value

447
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:15,919
Speaker 1: to the people's lives and had value inherently. But that

448
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:18,760
Speaker 1: was something that I needed to build and develop, and

449
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:21,440
Speaker 1: that was going to take time and discipline and rigor

450
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:25,159
Speaker 1: and and it wasn't going to be easy. But you know,

451
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:27,200
Speaker 1: I wrote in my book, like do the hard things

452
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:29,720
Speaker 1: or the hard things do you? In general? You're not

453
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:31,439
Speaker 1: gonna like it when the hard things of life, when

454
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:33,480
Speaker 1: the hard parts of life do you, You're not gonna

455
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 1: enjoy it, you know. And life still gonna do that. Sometimes,

456
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,440
Speaker 1: it's still gonna mess you up. You know, it's still

457
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:41,920
Speaker 1: gonna throw your curveballs. But but you will be far

458
00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:46,480
Speaker 1: more prepared for the ship that life, God, universe source.

459
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:52,960
Speaker 1: You know, politics, society throws at you. If you are

460
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:57,919
Speaker 1: embracing uh, the hardship, you know, if you're choosing to

461
00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,639
Speaker 1: do that in a meaningful way. Every single day, cold

462
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:03,760
Speaker 1: showers working out when you don't want to first thing

463
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:08,440
Speaker 1: in the morning, developing skills that are challenging but but rewarding,

464
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:11,520
Speaker 1: Like all of that is is going to sharpen you

465
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:16,680
Speaker 1: as a man, and that's meaningful. Yeah, it's so interesting

466
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:20,159
Speaker 1: to hear you talk about not Um. Let me think

467
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 1: about how I want to phrase this. Well, I mean,

468
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:25,680
Speaker 1: we hear a lot about toxic masculinity right now, and

469
00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 1: I mean we can probably do eight million podcasts on

470
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:33,359
Speaker 1: this those two words. But um, I feel like from women,

471
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:35,480
Speaker 1: and this is what I hear a lot from a

472
00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:38,720
Speaker 1: lot of my listeners, is this frustration with guys like

473
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:43,199
Speaker 1: guys suck, guys are assholes. Um. And I've really like

474
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:46,240
Speaker 1: this is like a new thing that I'm really letting

475
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:49,440
Speaker 1: go of that narrative because when you're experiencing men who

476
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:53,080
Speaker 1: are treating you like like they're acting like assholes, it's

477
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:56,040
Speaker 1: very hard not to get in that mindset. And I

478
00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 1: think you know that can go vice versa. I'm sure

479
00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:01,359
Speaker 1: that men have a narrative about women too, But um,

480
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:03,360
Speaker 1: I do think that that is like a big thing

481
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:05,720
Speaker 1: that women are, you know, just like well, all guys

482
00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:08,320
Speaker 1: are assholes or all guys are just going to cheat

483
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,240
Speaker 1: or we just are supposed to get like on board

484
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:13,680
Speaker 1: with guys looking at porn and all of these things

485
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:16,159
Speaker 1: that like don't feel good as a woman or as

486
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:18,919
Speaker 1: a partner. And it's interesting for me to hear you

487
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:20,800
Speaker 1: talk about like the time in your life before you

488
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:25,600
Speaker 1: made this transition not being satisfied, like looking at that

489
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 1: and being like I was doing all these things and

490
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,920
Speaker 1: on paper, you know, life looked a certain way and

491
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:33,960
Speaker 1: I was presenting, but like, deep down inside, I wasn't

492
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:36,639
Speaker 1: fulfilling my purpose. And so is there a shift and

493
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:39,879
Speaker 1: how you actually feel like even though the work is

494
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:41,880
Speaker 1: hard and you're like having to take a deep dive

495
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:45,320
Speaker 1: on things you're not proud of, is the reward worth it?

496
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:47,719
Speaker 1: I guess I would be curious to know, like from

497
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:49,920
Speaker 1: a man's standpoint, how you would pitch that to men,

498
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:57,240
Speaker 1: because it sounds hardy. Yeah it is. I mean easy

499
00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:02,320
Speaker 1: is generally not meaningful. You know, easy is generally not fulfilling.

500
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:04,240
Speaker 1: It might be for a little bit, like you know,

501
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 1: I remember I played a lot of video games as

502
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:09,159
Speaker 1: a kid, and and I used to think, like I

503
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:11,359
Speaker 1: used to play this one game. Um, maybe some of

504
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:14,440
Speaker 1: your listeners remember it was called Golden I. Double O

505
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 1: seven was James Bond game on Nintendo since before yeah, right,

506
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 1: And there was a cheat code that would give you

507
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 1: the Golden Gun, right, and you could run through the

508
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:24,640
Speaker 1: video game and it was like a one shot kill.

509
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:28,800
Speaker 1: And I I worked so hard to get that cheet code,

510
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:30,639
Speaker 1: and and I thought that it was going to make

511
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,200
Speaker 1: the game so much fun. And then when I got

512
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:36,679
Speaker 1: the Golden Gun, the one shot kill and the invisibility

513
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:39,160
Speaker 1: right and the invincible nous, so you'd run through the game,

514
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:41,440
Speaker 1: you get shot as many times, you wouldn't die. It

515
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 1: was so boring. It was so boring because it was

516
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,800
Speaker 1: so easy. There was no challenge, there were no obstacles.

517
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 1: You just run through killing people. And and within an

518
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 1: hour of playing the game like that, I was like,

519
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:58,680
Speaker 1: this is terrible. And that's that's because we find a

520
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 1: sense of meaning and reward and fulfillment out of hardship,

521
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:07,000
Speaker 1: out of facing hard things. You know, Like my wife

522
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 1: is a marriage and family therapist, and we talk a

523
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:13,480
Speaker 1: lot about how the best couples aren't the ones that

524
00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:16,960
Speaker 1: that they're not the couples that don't have any conflict.

525
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,280
Speaker 1: There are the couples who have conflict and get through

526
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 1: it and come out the other side, okay, come out

527
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 1: the other side stronger. And so we as human beings

528
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:28,880
Speaker 1: need to know that we can go through hardship and

529
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:31,920
Speaker 1: come out the other side okay. And so we actually

530
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:35,040
Speaker 1: need to bake that into our lives, and when we do,

531
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:42,600
Speaker 1: it becomes very rewarding. Right. Our whole system, you know, neurologically, biologically, psychologically,

532
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 1: is designed to face and endure hardship and come out

533
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 1: the other side okay, stronger, faster, better, smarter, more well

534
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:54,000
Speaker 1: adapt And so when we don't give ourselves those opportunities

535
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:57,280
Speaker 1: to do that, we suffer. That's where suffering resides. You know,

536
00:29:57,280 --> 00:29:59,760
Speaker 1: there's a reason why monks sit in meditation for prolonged

537
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:01,719
Speaker 1: period of time. Right, It's not easy to go and

538
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 1: do that. And so you know, my my pitch to

539
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 1: men is is exactly what I just laid out before.

540
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:12,720
Speaker 1: It's like, you can go do the easy thing, but

541
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 1: somewhere inside of you, you're gonna know that that's boring,

542
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 1: it's unfulfilling, it's unrewarding, and you can live your life

543
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 1: like that, but it's it's probably not going to give

544
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 1: you what you want. You're probably not going to find

545
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 1: what it is that you're looking for. And it's not freedom.

546
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:34,040
Speaker 1: It's a cage, right, It's a trap. And I think

547
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:37,040
Speaker 1: almost all men know that, you know, I think almost

548
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 1: all men know the truth in that. And you know,

549
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 1: as for what you're saying about um, you know, men

550
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 1: and women and the narratives about men. I think the

551
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:52,840
Speaker 1: dating right now is a very interesting thing. I think

552
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 1: that's shifted. I think that I think the data. Yeah,

553
00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:01,720
Speaker 1: I think the dating apps have like just caused havoc

554
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 1: in male female relationships and just and I mean just

555
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 1: just in relationships in general, regardless of whether you know

556
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:10,960
Speaker 1: your gay, straight, or however you identify or whatever your

557
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:15,680
Speaker 1: sexual preferences. I think it's just made it difficult all around.

558
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 1: And you know, there are there are some men out

559
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:22,840
Speaker 1: there that you know are I think I just I

560
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 1: have a lot of sympathy and empathy because I understand

561
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:28,840
Speaker 1: men in a different way, and I've worked with tens

562
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 1: of thousands of men now over the years, and I

563
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 1: know that a man who is abusive has probably been abused,

564
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 1: and I know that a man who is lying and

565
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 1: cheating is probably hurting in some capacity. And I know

566
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 1: that a man who is stuck in addictions and watching

567
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:50,560
Speaker 1: porn every night, or smoking weed and numbing out. Is

568
00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:53,480
Speaker 1: is in pain and no one has taught him how

569
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 1: to deal with his pain, and no one has told

570
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 1: him your life could be a fucking lot better if

571
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 1: you dealt with that ship, you know, and really and

572
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:04,720
Speaker 1: really kind of got in his face and challenged him.

573
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:07,640
Speaker 1: You know, a lot of men aren't being challenged. They're

574
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:11,040
Speaker 1: sitting on the couch watching TV, playing video games, smoking weed,

575
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:13,960
Speaker 1: and they don't have anybody in their life that's challenging them.

576
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 1: And for the masculine, for men, that's boring, like that's

577
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 1: a that's a meaningless existence. And so we need people

578
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:25,520
Speaker 1: in our lives who challenge us. And that's what that's

579
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:29,120
Speaker 1: what real male friendship is is about. There's an essence

580
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,320
Speaker 1: of I'm going to challenge you, but I'm going to

581
00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 1: challenge you to be better than who you are today,

582
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:38,400
Speaker 1: and I'm going to challenge you to be the man

583
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:42,120
Speaker 1: that you have said you want to become, you know,

584
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:48,080
Speaker 1: And there's something absolutely wonderful and essential and beautiful within

585
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 1: that type of male relationship. So anyway, I love, no,

586
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 1: I love these answers. Are you kidding? I could do

587
00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 1: this all day. Um I I literally was just like

588
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 1: hearing about what you're saying, I see why it would

589
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 1: work man to man like that seems like such an

590
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 1: important relationship to have other men in your life. It's

591
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:12,280
Speaker 1: the same as us having you know, just female friends

592
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:14,280
Speaker 1: that you're really really honest with and that cheat you

593
00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:18,840
Speaker 1: straight because like I think about in my former relationships,

594
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:21,400
Speaker 1: I can't be the one saying all the things that

595
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:24,280
Speaker 1: you're saying to my partner and it really hit like

596
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 1: it's more just it doesn't doesn't land the same, and

597
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 1: then it becomes this really bad toxic dynamic of back

598
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:32,959
Speaker 1: and forth, like the nagging, the shutting down, the like

599
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 1: you know, all those things are in the past that

600
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 1: has for me because they haven't been relationships that work. Um,

601
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 1: but I think I do see the importance of like

602
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 1: that male almost like either mentor or just like accountability

603
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 1: partner to shoot you straight and just say like you're

604
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:53,040
Speaker 1: saying you want this or you say you're this kind

605
00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:55,240
Speaker 1: of man, and I see you doing X, Y and

606
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:57,600
Speaker 1: Z and that's not in line, Like are those are

607
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:00,800
Speaker 1: those relationships in your life? Have they become equally as

608
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:04,040
Speaker 1: valuable as any relationship I guess yeah. I mean those

609
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:07,920
Speaker 1: are you know, those are the relationships that I value,

610
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:11,840
Speaker 1: and those are kind of like the only relationships that

611
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 1: I want specifically from men in my inner circle, you know,

612
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 1: because it it provides a sense like there's a utility

613
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:21,279
Speaker 1: to that, you know, and it's a very sort of

614
00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:25,600
Speaker 1: analytical or like linear approach, but there's a utility to

615
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:28,879
Speaker 1: having men in your life as a man who are

616
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:32,920
Speaker 1: going to challenge you. You know, we in within I

617
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:36,240
Speaker 1: call it calling it calling you forward, rather than calling

618
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:39,399
Speaker 1: another guy out, which is generally about your own ego. Right,

619
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, I told him, I called him out,

620
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:43,399
Speaker 1: and you know, YadA, YadA, YadA. It's like, well, that's

621
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:46,359
Speaker 1: about you, that's about you feeling better about yourself. It's

622
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 1: about you bulls bolstering your own confidence and ego, whereas

623
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 1: calling somebody out is for them, it's about them. And

624
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:59,200
Speaker 1: it's because there's been an agreement put in place beforehand

625
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:03,399
Speaker 1: where each of you has said, I want to call

626
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:06,600
Speaker 1: you forward into the version of yourself that you have

627
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:09,879
Speaker 1: said you want to be as a father, as a man,

628
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:13,480
Speaker 1: as a husband, as a business leader. I'm going to

629
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:18,880
Speaker 1: hold you to that vision that you have of yourself

630
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 1: as a man. And that's so valuable, you know, because

631
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:28,399
Speaker 1: otherwise you're a man on an island trying to make

632
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:32,440
Speaker 1: your way closer to the type of husband, father, business leader, entrepreneur,

633
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:35,839
Speaker 1: you know, scientist, research or construction worker that you want

634
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:39,279
Speaker 1: to be. And and you're alone, there's no one, there's

635
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:41,680
Speaker 1: no one. They're saying, hey, you know, I've noticed that

636
00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:43,840
Speaker 1: you said you wanted to drink a little bit less.

637
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:45,880
Speaker 1: But the last couple of times we've gone out like

638
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:48,680
Speaker 1: you've been getting ship faced, Like what's going on you now?

639
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:51,360
Speaker 1: It seems like it seems like you're you're not holding

640
00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 1: up to what you said you want to do? Why

641
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:58,920
Speaker 1: and check in? And that's valuable because we we are

642
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:03,040
Speaker 1: a communal specie. You know, where we need community. We

643
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 1: thrive in community. Um So I would say that's it's

644
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:11,320
Speaker 1: essential and that it's the missing link that a lot

645
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:15,080
Speaker 1: of men need. It's why, you know, within the Man

646
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 1: Talks community, we built something called the Alliance. The Alliance,

647
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:21,560
Speaker 1: and an alliance is a is a group that is

648
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 1: specifically designed for the benefit of the people involved. And

649
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 1: so we've got hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of men

650
00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:30,200
Speaker 1: from around the world that are all a part of

651
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:34,000
Speaker 1: that membership of that group, and the sole purpose is

652
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:38,440
Speaker 1: to support one another in being the best versions of themselves,

653
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:41,680
Speaker 1: right to hold one another accountable. And the men in

654
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:45,800
Speaker 1: that group have found lifelong friendships, they've started businesses together,

655
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:50,200
Speaker 1: you know, they've saved marriages and relationships. They've you know,

656
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:53,359
Speaker 1: reconnected with kids that wouldn't talk to them. I mean,

657
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:55,960
Speaker 1: the results from that are are profound, and so it's

658
00:36:55,960 --> 00:37:01,920
Speaker 1: a it's a necessary part of a man's life. I

659
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:05,319
Speaker 1: love what you brought up earlier about um when you

660
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 1: see a man struggling with something, whether whatever it is, addictions, um, cheating,

661
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:14,200
Speaker 1: We've talked about infidelity a little bit. Um that you

662
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:19,840
Speaker 1: see a man hurting instead of like an asshole. And actually,

663
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:23,120
Speaker 1: I mean, all my good days I can look at

664
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:24,960
Speaker 1: it that way too. It's hard if you've been on

665
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:29,000
Speaker 1: the receiving end of that, because it's it's painful, you know. Um,

666
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:30,759
Speaker 1: I was listening to your podcast that you did with

667
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:33,840
Speaker 1: I think his name is Stephanos Offender. I don't know

668
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:36,600
Speaker 1: how to say his last name. That podcast is so good,

669
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 1: by the way, UM, if anyone wants to go Listener's

670
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:42,799
Speaker 1: on Man Talks podcast. But you guys both have this

671
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:46,799
Speaker 1: like story of maybe not being the most stand up guy.

672
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:49,040
Speaker 1: Like in relationships, there's a lot of cheating. There was

673
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:50,799
Speaker 1: a lot of all of that stuff. But as I

674
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:53,080
Speaker 1: listened to you tell your stories, and as someone who

675
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:54,680
Speaker 1: like I said, I've been on the other side of

676
00:37:54,719 --> 00:38:00,239
Speaker 1: that exact thing, and it's extremely painful, and um, the

677
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:02,759
Speaker 1: weird part was, and I really resonated with what you

678
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:04,640
Speaker 1: guys said, though you were like, yeah, but I always

679
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 1: loved my partner and I actually knew that, like being

680
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 1: on the other side of it. In every situation that

681
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:13,560
Speaker 1: I was in, you know it. And that's what even

682
00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:16,279
Speaker 1: makes it more frustrating, is because that makes the pain

683
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:20,280
Speaker 1: even greater, being like, but I know we were there,

684
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:23,160
Speaker 1: and like, I know you felt the same things. Um,

685
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:26,520
Speaker 1: but it's really their own trauma or past getting in

686
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:28,920
Speaker 1: the way. And so I guess what I'm wanting to

687
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:32,000
Speaker 1: talk about in the long, roundabout way is just like

688
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:34,640
Speaker 1: the trauma piece of all of this, Like I think

689
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:38,759
Speaker 1: so much maybe this is a sidal thing or maybe

690
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:41,719
Speaker 1: this is something men faced separately, but like we don't

691
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:45,680
Speaker 1: want to accept that we have to face the things

692
00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:48,080
Speaker 1: that happened in our past in order to do them differently.

693
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:49,719
Speaker 1: Like I feel like a lot of people have that

694
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:52,400
Speaker 1: mentality of just like, well, I'm not going to be

695
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:56,239
Speaker 1: like my parents. Well if something was modeled to you,

696
00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:57,799
Speaker 1: like if you don't know a different way you're going

697
00:38:57,840 --> 00:38:59,680
Speaker 1: to do it, or if something happened to you or

698
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:02,359
Speaker 1: you know, whatever it is, like, so what would you

699
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:04,880
Speaker 1: say to speak to that? Because I do think a

700
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:10,360
Speaker 1: lot of this toxic masculinity stuff is just like unhealed trauma,

701
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:14,799
Speaker 1: unhealed wounds of some sort that we're in pain, but

702
00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:17,120
Speaker 1: we're not facing it and so we're just acting out

703
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:20,759
Speaker 1: on it. That was a lot, So whatever you take

704
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:26,520
Speaker 1: from that. No, No, it's good, it's good. Um. Yeah,

705
00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 1: I mean the toxic masculinity thing is is a whole

706
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:33,160
Speaker 1: other conversation, you know, just just to touch on that

707
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:38,360
Speaker 1: super briefly. I think if we separated, if we separated

708
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:42,719
Speaker 1: the masculinity from the men who are in pain, from

709
00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:46,680
Speaker 1: the men who are hurting or have received pain from

710
00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 1: from people in their lives, you you would label it

711
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:55,719
Speaker 1: as toxic, you know. Um, because the there is a

712
00:39:55,840 --> 00:40:00,759
Speaker 1: huge population of men that haven't been hot. How to

713
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:06,479
Speaker 1: metabolize break down, work with carry the pain that they've

714
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:10,359
Speaker 1: been given, you know, in childhood, in early adult you know,

715
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:14,480
Speaker 1: in relationship with women, etcetera. And you know, I am

716
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:17,399
Speaker 1: writing a book that comes out in January called Men's Work,

717
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:20,399
Speaker 1: And it's just all about the work that we as

718
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:24,120
Speaker 1: men can embark on in order to be self led,

719
00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 1: in order to lead ourselves more effectively in our lives

720
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:30,959
Speaker 1: and our careers, in in our relationships. And the book

721
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:34,080
Speaker 1: starts off with A man's work begins in pain. That's

722
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:36,600
Speaker 1: the very first line. A Man's Work begins in pain.

723
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:40,400
Speaker 1: And I say that because our work is men is

724
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:44,600
Speaker 1: to understand who do we become? We are hurting? Who

725
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:48,600
Speaker 1: do we become? Do we become the Do we become

726
00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:51,400
Speaker 1: just like our father, you know, who was abusive and

727
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:53,399
Speaker 1: who yelled at us and called us a stupid piece

728
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:57,160
Speaker 1: of shit? You know? Or us? Uh? Do we become

729
00:40:57,239 --> 00:41:01,680
Speaker 1: like him? Or do we do? We act in opposition

730
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:06,120
Speaker 1: and we become weak and feeble and disconnected from our anger,

731
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:09,080
Speaker 1: and we and we we disconnect from our anger so

732
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:11,440
Speaker 1: much that we become passive aggressive, and we let our

733
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:14,080
Speaker 1: partner walk all over us, and we have no boundaries,

734
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:18,520
Speaker 1: and we become needy and and and just generally dislike

735
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:22,040
Speaker 1: ourselves within relationship, right, who do we become? So we

736
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:25,880
Speaker 1: as men need to be taught and again, you know,

737
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:30,680
Speaker 1: just trying an initiation from before. We we used to

738
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:33,799
Speaker 1: be taught how to deal with pain. That's what initiation did.

739
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:36,200
Speaker 1: That was the other part of it. What's who are

740
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:38,520
Speaker 1: you as a man when you are suffering, when you're

741
00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:40,799
Speaker 1: in pain, when you're hurting, How do you act? How

742
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:44,320
Speaker 1: you respond? What most of us do in modern culture

743
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:47,640
Speaker 1: is we watch porn, right, We jerk off, we smoke weed,

744
00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:50,600
Speaker 1: we get high, we play video games, we get blitzed.

745
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:54,239
Speaker 1: We you know, we use women as an outlet to

746
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:56,759
Speaker 1: feel better about ourselves. I know, I mean I used

747
00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:59,239
Speaker 1: all of those, right, Or if you're really if you're

748
00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:02,359
Speaker 1: really hurting, you just use all of them, right, our combination, right,

749
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 1: we we watch right exactly exactly, And so so you know,

750
00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:14,279
Speaker 1: part of part of the training that most of us

751
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:18,160
Speaker 1: men haven't got in terms of how to actually be

752
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:22,760
Speaker 1: great at being a man is how to deal with pain.

753
00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:25,600
Speaker 1: And whether that's the pain of heartbreak, the pain of

754
00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:30,000
Speaker 1: loss and death, the pain of um, you know, not

755
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:33,399
Speaker 1: having a healthy body. Right, maybe you. Maybe you were

756
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:37,719
Speaker 1: porn into a body that that has had hardship and

757
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:40,960
Speaker 1: we know whether it's cancer or whatever it is, um

758
00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:44,080
Speaker 1: or the pain that you were given right the abuse

759
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:46,239
Speaker 1: your experienced at the hands of a family member or

760
00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:49,600
Speaker 1: a coach. Um, you know the amount of men. I'll

761
00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:52,879
Speaker 1: just I'll say one more thing. I used to do

762
00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:56,760
Speaker 1: live events where I would travel around North America and

763
00:42:57,160 --> 00:42:59,960
Speaker 1: I would um. At some point I would talk about

764
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:04,000
Speaker 1: out trauma. Trauma would come up and I would ask, man,

765
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:05,279
Speaker 1: you know, how many of you guys have been in

766
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:07,719
Speaker 1: a relationship with a woman who has experienced some form

767
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:11,680
Speaker 1: of sexual abuse or sexual trauma? And usually like eight

768
00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:14,799
Speaker 1: of the hands would go up in the room, and

769
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:16,719
Speaker 1: I would say, you know, we would discuss that for

770
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:18,839
Speaker 1: a little bit and talk about what that was like,

771
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:21,960
Speaker 1: and you know how they navigated that in the relationship

772
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:24,920
Speaker 1: with women, and you know if they knew how to

773
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:28,000
Speaker 1: to support her or have those conversations. And I said, now,

774
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:33,120
Speaker 1: how many of you have had some something similar happened

775
00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:36,040
Speaker 1: to you in your life as those women that you've dated,

776
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:40,280
Speaker 1: whether it's sexual or physical, or emotional or verbal, whether

777
00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:42,640
Speaker 1: it was a parent or a family member or a

778
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:47,880
Speaker 1: neighbor or coach or you know, somebody at school, and honestly,

779
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:52,080
Speaker 1: almost every single time, the exact same amount of hands

780
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:54,480
Speaker 1: would go up. Maybe different men from their hands up,

781
00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:57,640
Speaker 1: but for the most part, yeah, for the most part.

782
00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:01,279
Speaker 1: You know, men have experienced a bull and they've experienced

783
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:09,920
Speaker 1: you know, sexual abuse, verbal abuse, physical abuse of some kinds, neglect, abandonment, right, um,

784
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:14,400
Speaker 1: father is just piecing out and leaving and so or

785
00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:16,719
Speaker 1: I would you know, I would do an exercise, would

786
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:18,680
Speaker 1: have all the men stand in a big circle, and

787
00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:21,880
Speaker 1: I would, you know, say phrases like, take a step

788
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:25,040
Speaker 1: forward if you experienced physical abuse growing up, take a

789
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:28,280
Speaker 1: step forward, if you were bullied, take a step forward,

790
00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:30,920
Speaker 1: if you didn't have a father in your home, you know,

791
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:33,800
Speaker 1: take a step forward if you saw your mom be abused.

792
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:36,359
Speaker 1: And again, by the end of it, all of these

793
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:39,759
Speaker 1: men had come together in a circle. And so you know,

794
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:42,880
Speaker 1: the amount of pain that most men are carrying and

795
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 1: don't know how to deal with is substantial. You know,

796
00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:48,560
Speaker 1: the things that they've seen, the things that they've experienced,

797
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:53,120
Speaker 1: the things that they've gone through, and no one's no

798
00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:56,839
Speaker 1: one's really tutored them or or taught them like you

799
00:44:56,880 --> 00:45:01,000
Speaker 1: can be a more You can be a stronger, more complete,

800
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:06,320
Speaker 1: more capable man in your relationship, in your work environment,

801
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:09,360
Speaker 1: in your mission in life if you learn how to

802
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:13,840
Speaker 1: carry this pain more effectively, and that's the mission, you know,

803
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:16,719
Speaker 1: that's really that's if I could sum up like what

804
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:19,880
Speaker 1: I'm up to, that's really what it's all about, because

805
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:22,320
Speaker 1: I think that that allows a man to step into

806
00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:25,239
Speaker 1: his own greatness. It frees him. It teaches him that

807
00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:27,759
Speaker 1: it's okay for him to be in pain, and he

808
00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:29,960
Speaker 1: doesn't need to hide that from the world. You know,

809
00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:32,240
Speaker 1: he can talk about it with other men. He can

810
00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:34,719
Speaker 1: learn how to to deal with it. He doesn't have

811
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:37,200
Speaker 1: to be reactive to it and take it out in

812
00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:41,239
Speaker 1: his relationship. So yeah, I love that idea of just

813
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:44,919
Speaker 1: like men are not taught anymore how to deal with pain.

814
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:47,520
Speaker 1: And I actually think that's like a societal thing too.

815
00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:49,760
Speaker 1: We could say that for everyone, because we're so pain

816
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:53,120
Speaker 1: averse that it's like all we teach each other is

817
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:56,120
Speaker 1: how to medicate it away, like go get a drink,

818
00:45:56,320 --> 00:45:58,719
Speaker 1: go all the stuff you said, you know, like get

819
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:02,319
Speaker 1: in another relationship. If heartbroken. It's just like that's what

820
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:06,080
Speaker 1: we teach And so it is really sad because there's

821
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:08,760
Speaker 1: going to be pain in life, like life on life's

822
00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:14,120
Speaker 1: terms is painful. If we learn how to process through

823
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:16,680
Speaker 1: that pain, there's always growth and learning in there too,

824
00:46:16,719 --> 00:46:19,080
Speaker 1: if we choose to look at it that way, you know,

825
00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:23,919
Speaker 1: but or not and not react or medicated away. But um, well,

826
00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:26,000
Speaker 1: I just love the work that you're doing. And I,

827
00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:28,120
Speaker 1: like I said, I've mentioned the podcast a couple of times.

828
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:31,319
Speaker 1: I'm a big fan. I've been listening a lot, um,

829
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:33,600
Speaker 1: So tell us a little bit about what people can

830
00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:37,000
Speaker 1: find if they do go listen to the Man Talks podcast. Yeah,

831
00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:40,120
Speaker 1: I mean we I've had some interesting guests, like I

832
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:45,360
Speaker 1: have whim Hoff coming on soon, the Breath guy, Yeah,

833
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:51,200
Speaker 1: he's phenomenal. I've had sex therapists, astrophysicists, um, you know,

834
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:55,320
Speaker 1: psychologists and coaches and entrepreneurs on the on the show.

835
00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:59,319
Speaker 1: And it's all through the lens of how, you know,

836
00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:01,360
Speaker 1: how do you become how do you define and become

837
00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:04,160
Speaker 1: the best version of yourself as the man, as a father,

838
00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:06,719
Speaker 1: as a husband, you know, as a partner, as a

839
00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:10,239
Speaker 1: business leader or entrepreneur or whatever it is. Uh, And

840
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:13,000
Speaker 1: so that's really what we're all about. It's there's a

841
00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:16,200
Speaker 1: there's a big focus and on relationship, whether that's the

842
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:20,000
Speaker 1: your intimate relationship, but more specifically the relationship you have

843
00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:23,600
Speaker 1: to yourself. How do you lead yourself more effectively in

844
00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:26,520
Speaker 1: whatever you're up to in life? And then what do

845
00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:29,080
Speaker 1: you guys? Is there anything coming up on Man Talks?

846
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:31,120
Speaker 1: Do you have any retreats coming up? And you said

847
00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:35,520
Speaker 1: you do retreats pretty often, right, Yeah, yeah, we have

848
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:37,880
Speaker 1: one coming up in New York. So we have a

849
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:41,520
Speaker 1: live event coming up in New York and uh um

850
00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:44,040
Speaker 1: that will be coming out soon. So people could you know,

851
00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:45,600
Speaker 1: if they're on the website, they can just sign up

852
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:49,279
Speaker 1: and we'll we'll send you more information. Um. And then yeah,

853
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:51,600
Speaker 1: I mean we have the The Alliance, which is a great,

854
00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:54,480
Speaker 1: great resource. And then I have my book coming out

855
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:58,839
Speaker 1: in January, which is gonna be it's gonna be fun.

856
00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:00,919
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be doing a little book tour and going

857
00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:03,880
Speaker 1: around and talking about it and you have to have

858
00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:05,560
Speaker 1: you back on when the books coming out and talk

859
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:09,120
Speaker 1: about this. But that sounds amazing. And then also I

860
00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:11,319
Speaker 1: know you're on Instagram at Man Talks. It's a great

861
00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:13,839
Speaker 1: account for you guys. It's also great for ladies like

862
00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:17,760
Speaker 1: I love following anything that has to do with relationships,

863
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:20,120
Speaker 1: and I think it's really interesting to hear from a man,

864
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:24,120
Speaker 1: like a more man's perspective, because, like I said earlier

865
00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:26,080
Speaker 1: in this podcast, there's a lot of things that I

866
00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:28,080
Speaker 1: don't think about because it's not the lens that I

867
00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:30,520
Speaker 1: see the world through. So it's really helpful to me

868
00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:34,320
Speaker 1: to have more empathy and grace with any partners or

869
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:36,279
Speaker 1: friends that I have, just to hear it from a

870
00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:39,839
Speaker 1: male perspective. Yeah, well I do. I do have quite

871
00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:42,120
Speaker 1: a few women to follow me, and I actually have

872
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:48,320
Speaker 1: a program coming out called Understanding men um for Women. Yeah.

873
00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:50,720
Speaker 1: Over over the years, I've just had so many women

874
00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:55,120
Speaker 1: ask questions. Yeah, and I was like, Okay, well I

875
00:48:55,120 --> 00:48:57,160
Speaker 1: I need to just be able to address some of

876
00:48:57,200 --> 00:49:00,880
Speaker 1: these um and so I'm excited about that. I'm excited

877
00:49:00,920 --> 00:49:04,000
Speaker 1: to dive into that's gonna be fun, amazing with Connor.

878
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:05,839
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for being here. Like I said,

879
00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:07,120
Speaker 1: I could talk to you all day because I have

880
00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:09,120
Speaker 1: so many questions and maybe I'll just take that course.

881
00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:13,239
Speaker 1: That sounds like a good program for any women who

882
00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:15,480
Speaker 1: have a lot of questions for you. Go check out

883
00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:17,800
Speaker 1: Connor I'll put all his information in the show notes

884
00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:19,960
Speaker 1: and Connor again, thank you so much for being here.

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00:49:20,719 --> 00:49:23,759
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to The Velvet's Edge podcast with Kelly Henderson,

886
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:26,400
Speaker 1: where we believe everyone has a little velvet and a

887
00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:30,600
Speaker 1: little edge. Subscribe for more conversations on life, style, beauty

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00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:34,359
Speaker 1: and relationships. Search Velvet's Edge wherever you get your podcasts.