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Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. For many people, hours

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Speaker 1: upon hours upon hours are spent in the gym, working out,

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Speaker 1: trying to make their so called temple a thing of beauty,

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Speaker 1: something that would be admired by everyone they came in

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Speaker 1: contact with, something that maybe other people desire to have

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Speaker 1: for themselves. The way we bear outside doesn't necessarily mean

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Speaker 1: that what we have within us it's going to be

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Speaker 1: very beautiful at all. As a matter of fact, you

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Speaker 1: can absolutely be rotten to the core. Or Today we're

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Speaker 1: going to talk about a thirty nine year old mama

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Speaker 1: and her death at the hands of her husband. I'm

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Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is Body Bags. Jackie Howard,

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Speaker 1: executive producer of Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, is joining

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Speaker 1: me today. Jackie, did you ever see something that's it's

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Speaker 1: it has a luster to it. It's something that you

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Speaker 1: think that you want, but you know, you look back

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Speaker 1: on it. I think many times as you get older

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Speaker 1: and you think, man, thank Heavens that I didn't acquire

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Speaker 1: that thing in my life. And unfortunately, in this case,

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Speaker 1: this is something that really turned bad and very ugly

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Speaker 1: after many years of marriage. Katie Bonnock was reported missing

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Speaker 1: to Florida police, and she had, before her disappearance, accused

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Speaker 1: her ex husband of physically abusing one of their children,

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Speaker 1: and she had gone to court to get a restraining

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Speaker 1: order against him, asking that the court send him for

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Speaker 1: counseling now. The night before she went missing, Katie Bonnach

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Speaker 1: dropped her children off at a friend's house. She was

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Speaker 1: on her way to her ex husband's home to pick

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Speaker 1: up some of her things, and that was the last

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Speaker 1: time Katie Bonnach was seen alive. The next day, police

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Speaker 1: officers visited Ian Bonnac, that was her ex husband, and

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Speaker 1: found that her car was still parked in his driveway,

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Speaker 1: her purse was inside, and neither of the individual was

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Speaker 1: expected to be at the residents Ian or Katie could

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Speaker 1: be found. Police left and the detectives came back and

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Speaker 1: found Katie Bonnack's car had been moved, and detectives went

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Speaker 1: for a search warrant. What can the simple move movement,

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Speaker 1: the moving of a card tell you to make you

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Speaker 1: so suspicious that you try to get a search warrant? Well,

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Speaker 1: it implies activity. You go there and you don't get

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Speaker 1: an answer at the door, and suddenly things are not

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Speaker 1: as they appeared upon the initial viewing, and so for investigators,

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Speaker 1: that's that's a huge red flag, particularly when you've got

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Speaker 1: a mama that's that's missing. We're talking about an individual

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Speaker 1: that's responsible for little lives, right, and you know that

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Speaker 1: makes it all the more urgent. How many times do

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Speaker 1: we hear about these cases where people will say, well,

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Speaker 1: they're an adult, they have a decision to make, they

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Speaker 1: can leave and all that sort of thing, and know

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Speaker 1: the police will delay in taking a missing person's report. However,

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Speaker 1: when you're talking about a mother that goes missing and

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Speaker 1: there's no explanation for it whatsoever, and you've got children

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Speaker 1: that are kind of out here without that support system

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Speaker 1: that every child deserves from their mother, it causes police

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Speaker 1: to be a bit more sensitive to what's going on.

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Speaker 1: It's more of a motivating factor. And when she's missing

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Speaker 1: and they come back and the cars have been rearranged,

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Speaker 1: they have to get an answer for that because they're

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Speaker 1: actively looking for her at that point in time, and

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Speaker 1: you begin to think, well, she's disappeared, she goes to

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Speaker 1: her ex husband's house, that's the last time she's known

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Speaker 1: to be alive or at least her last destination that

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Speaker 1: anyone knew of, and suddenly she just vaporizes and no

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Speaker 1: one can can find her anywhere. So is that enough

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Speaker 1: for probable cause for a warrant to enter somebody's residence

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Speaker 1: at that point in time? And the police have to

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Speaker 1: consider that they want to go find her at that

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Speaker 1: point in time, And it's at that juncture once they

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Speaker 1: get that warrant they can enter the residence that suddenly

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Speaker 1: things don't turn out the way they expected them to.

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Speaker 1: There's there's evidence of a struggle in the home. Her

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Speaker 1: rings are found there, which are her wedding ring and

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Speaker 1: her engagement ring. Who's going to remove those and and

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Speaker 1: have them there? You know, she was always known to

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Speaker 1: wear them. The police theorized that when she went to

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Speaker 1: the house, she actually took those items with her and

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Speaker 1: gave them to him. You know, is it to say

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Speaker 1: I don't want these anymore and you never know? You

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Speaker 1: never know? Is is that an act of provocation at

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Speaker 1: that point? Is that enough to make somebody angry to

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Speaker 1: the point where they're going to do great harm to

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Speaker 1: an individual? Besides the sign of a struggle that you mentioned,

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Speaker 1: police also found blood in ian bonnox trunk they used luminol.

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Speaker 1: That's how they found the blood by using luminol. So

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Speaker 1: as many times as you've explained this to me, Joe,

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Speaker 1: I need you to tell me again, walk me through this,

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Speaker 1: because I am amazed at what can be done with

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Speaker 1: the chemical reaction that we can see blood after someone

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Speaker 1: has tried to clean it up after a long time.

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Speaker 1: Walk me through the process again. It is really fascinating. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it really is. And there there's a couple of these

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Speaker 1: agents that are out there that we use in forensics. Lumino,

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Speaker 1: of course it's most famously known. There's another one called

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Speaker 1: blue Star, and they act basically the same way. The

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Speaker 1: principle is is that those things that can no longer

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Speaker 1: be seen with what we refer to in science with

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Speaker 1: the as with the unaided eye, as the way it's

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Speaker 1: generally phrase, particularly by forensic pathologists, can actually be revitalized

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Speaker 1: and brought back to life. And lumino is kind of

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Speaker 1: fascinating it It works in the same manner. It's a

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Speaker 1: chemical fluorescence is what is what actually happens, and it's

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Speaker 1: kind of the same principle as we see with flies

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Speaker 1: or as we stay down here in South lightning bugs

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Speaker 1: and it's the same the same principle that that that

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Speaker 1: that when the agent of luminol is applied to an

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Speaker 1: area that previously held blood, and no matter how minor

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Speaker 1: that deposit of blood might be, it will luminate us.

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Speaker 1: And what's happening is if you think about substance it's

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Speaker 1: called hemoglobin that's contained within our blood. Hemoglobin acts is

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Speaker 1: like a little vehicle that transports our RBC's, our red

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Speaker 1: blood cells, those the oxygenated blood cells that are kind

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Speaker 1: of moving through our system, and and it's it's bound

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Speaker 1: up with proteins. And one of the things with the

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Speaker 1: with the hemoglobin is that it it has traces of

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Speaker 1: minerals in in in it iron for instance, the mineral

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Speaker 1: iron is found in there, and the luminal actually reacts

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Speaker 1: with the iron, and so it'll it'll give you a

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Speaker 1: a snapshot and almost literally a snapshot, because when you

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Speaker 1: apply luminal to an area, you got about thirty pickens.

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Speaker 1: So the point of it is to document the location

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Speaker 1: of where you suspect blood is and the photographer that's there.

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Speaker 1: First off, you have to do it in the dark.

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Speaker 1: Take these photographs in the dark. You have to have

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Speaker 1: what's called long or extended shutter speed. The shutter has

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Speaker 1: to remain open because it's trying to grab all the

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Speaker 1: available light in order to document that image photographically. I

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Speaker 1: think a lot of people believe that with luminal first off,

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Speaker 1: that if you if you apply it to the area,

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Speaker 1: you're not going to be able to appreciate detail. Let

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Speaker 1: me tell something, Jackie. You can appreciate splash patterns. You

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Speaker 1: can appreciate the dynamics of blood as to the stain,

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Speaker 1: like we talked about velocity, where we've got low blow,

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Speaker 1: medium and high velocity blood staining that goes on. You

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Speaker 1: can appreciate that. You can appreciate what are called wipes

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Speaker 1: and swipes, particularly wipes, because what do people try to

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Speaker 1: do when when you can't see blood with the unaided eye,

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Speaker 1: like we just mentioned, Well, many times they try to

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Speaker 1: wipe it up. Maybe they've tried to drag a mop

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Speaker 1: through it, for instance, and you'll see these long swipes

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Speaker 1: and wipes that kind of go through it. And you

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Speaker 1: can pick up on that and what does that mean, Well,

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Speaker 1: it means that there was blood there, and it means

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Speaker 1: that there was probably an attempt to clean it up

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Speaker 1: at that point in time. And contrary to popular opinion,

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Speaker 1: just because you apply luminal to an area where you

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Speaker 1: believe blood was and you can verify that there was

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Speaker 1: blood there, do you know that the lumino doesn't actually

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Speaker 1: impact DNA to the degree that many people think. We

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Speaker 1: can still recover DNA in those environments, even though they're

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Speaker 1: not the best circumstances. You can still recover vible DNA

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Speaker 1: that you can use for typing. So it's it's a

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Speaker 1: wonderful substance. And it what it does is it actually

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Speaker 1: documents activity, and that's the most important thing because we're

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Speaker 1: not witnessed to these violent events that take place. There's

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Speaker 1: the old adage about blood will tell and blood does tell,

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Speaker 1: and it's it's it's interesting in sense that it's almost

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Speaker 1: like a historic record of what had occurred in that location,

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Speaker 1: and now somebody is attempted to alter it and moving forward,

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Speaker 1: they're they're hoping that they're going to completely disguise it.

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Speaker 1: So you've got this blood that that's found at the scene,

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Speaker 1: and most notably when they encountered the blood in the trunk,

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Speaker 1: the ex husband actually stated that well, that that blood

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Speaker 1: was there as a result of groceries and well, okay, groceries,

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Speaker 1: what do you mean are you saying that you've got

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Speaker 1: leaking ground beef or leaking pot roast that was back there?

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Speaker 1: And to another point, somebody says something like, well, this

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Speaker 1: is not human blood, this is animal blood. Well okay,

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Speaker 1: well we can make a determination about that because there's

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Speaker 1: actually testing that we do relative to determination of blood

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Speaker 1: within the constant of the forensic prology, which is the

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Speaker 1: study of blood, which is is pretty dynamic. We think

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Speaker 1: about everything that we can do because the steps along

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Speaker 1: that continuum relative to the blood that we have at

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Speaker 1: a scene, we have to think about first off, is

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Speaker 1: is what we're seeing is it blood? Because you can't

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Speaker 1: just walk up and say, yeah, there's blood here. You don't,

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Speaker 1: I mean, no no investigator worth their salt would ever

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Speaker 1: do that. I think I've said before, I've seen areas

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Speaker 1: that appear to be blood that turned out to be

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Speaker 1: melted chocolate. And I've seen things that I thought were

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Speaker 1: chocolate that turned out to be blood. So you can't

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Speaker 1: just eyeball in area and say it's blood. So you

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Speaker 1: have to test it to see if in fact it's blood.

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Speaker 1: And then the next step that you go to is

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Speaker 1: you test it and see if it's animal or human,

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Speaker 1: and then from there you try to narrow it down

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Speaker 1: to what human that blood belongs to, if in fact

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Speaker 1: it is human blood. So through this process of typing,

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Speaker 1: and then of course you can take it down to

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Speaker 1: really fine point when you get to DNA analysis and

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Speaker 1: you can be very very specific with you. Years gone by,

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Speaker 1: all we had was type where we would do the

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Speaker 1: various blood types. But nowadays you can put a very

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Speaker 1: very fine point on it. This is totally off topic,

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Speaker 1: but who in the world thought, Hey, if I sprayed

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Speaker 1: this chemical on blood, I'll bet I can see it

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Speaker 1: under a black light. That's actually a pretty interesting story,

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Speaker 1: and it goes back I guess, I think if I'm

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Speaker 1: not mistaken, that this kind of illuminescence was first discovered

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Speaker 1: all the way back I think in like the nineteen

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Speaker 1: twenties by German scientists. It's like anything that kind of

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Speaker 1: happens where you kind of bump up against discoveries in

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Speaker 1: science and and suddenly you you find something like this.

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Speaker 1: I can only imagine and I'm kind of super imposing

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Speaker 1: my thoughts about this relative to scientific discovery. You think

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Speaker 1: about some scientists that's in a lab somewhere and he

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Speaker 1: discovers this agent that he can apply to blood and luminess,

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Speaker 1: and you think, well, that's that's kind of fascinating. Let's

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Speaker 1: move on to the next thing. But he documents and

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Speaker 1: then moving forward in time, you get into like the

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Speaker 1: nineteen thirties and you've actually got a forensic scientist that

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Speaker 1: looks at this and says, hey, you know what, I

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Speaker 1: think that we could use this discovery from back in

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Speaker 1: the twenties to actually appreciate what was happening at a

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Speaker 1: crime scene. And sure enough, they did it. They began

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Speaker 1: to apply it in the thirties. Of course, it wasn't

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Speaker 1: something that was widely known about at that time, and

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Speaker 1: it takes time for these tests to evolve over over

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Speaker 1: a period of time, and eventually it just kind of

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Speaker 1: got into our cannon, you know, our scientific cannon that

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Speaker 1: this is something that you're going to that you're going

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Speaker 1: to apply and and use. Now you know, the everyday

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Speaker 1: person knows about luminal so it's another one of those

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Speaker 1: great things, a mistake that turned into a great discovery. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're you're absolutely right, and that's it's fantastic tool. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So back to the case. When police talked to the

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Speaker 1: husband about the blood that was found in this trunk,

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Speaker 1: he said, she's not missing. You don't have a body.

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Speaker 1: He blamed the blood as you mentioned earlier on oh

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Speaker 1: I brought in groceries. It could have been the meat

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Speaker 1: that seemed But then he told police said he didn't

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Speaker 1: believe that blood was found in the hallway. When investigators

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Speaker 1: continued their search, they found a burn pile on the property,

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Speaker 1: and inside they found part of a jawbone and a tooth.

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Speaker 1: So we're going to have that discussion that we always

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Speaker 1: have about how hard it is to burn a body. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is this is kind of interesting because before we

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Speaker 1: get to the burn pile, which was recent, they found

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Speaker 1: this this barrel. It's like a fifty de gallant oil

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Speaker 1: drum that's immediately adjacent to this area. And the investigators

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Speaker 1: were immediately struck by the smell of decay within this

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Speaker 1: barrel that something had begun to break down. And then,

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Speaker 1: of course, as you mentioned, there were bone fragments that

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Speaker 1: were found the jaw itself which contained the tooth. Forensic

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Speaker 1: anthropologists talk about bones in in a couple of ways,

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Speaker 1: and one of the most fascinating is they used the

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Speaker 1: term robust. Particularly when it comes to male skeletal structure,

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Speaker 1: they'll use the term robust kind of tuber if you will,

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Speaker 1: like our brow lines, and you think about the knot

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Speaker 1: on the back of our head, the oxy put that's

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Speaker 1: back there, and our master we process that are below

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Speaker 1: our ears to the rear. In males, that's tend to

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Speaker 1: be very robust. And you know, heavy dents, that sort

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Speaker 1: of thing. The jaw is very robust. And it does

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Speaker 1: not surprise me in the least bit that that that

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Speaker 1: is one of the few remnants that was actually left behind,

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Speaker 1: and and certainly with that tooth as well, because teeth

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Speaker 1: are not bone, they're seated, and obviously the jaw bone,

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Speaker 1: the lower lower jaw, the mandible. You've got thirty two

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Speaker 1: teeth an adult, and you'd be missing them, but you

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Speaker 1: have thirty two spots for teeth, and then of course

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Speaker 1: the maxilla, the upper teeth, that's the hard palate where

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Speaker 1: the heart adjacent to the hard palate, and the where

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Speaker 1: the roof of the mouth is. And it takes a

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Speaker 1: protracted period of time in order to render a body

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Speaker 1: down visa the heat, and it requires a tremendous amount

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Speaker 1: of attention tending, if you will, and and bone bones

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Speaker 1: kind of fascinated And there's been several studies that have

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Speaker 1: been done over the course of time relative to how

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Speaker 1: long it takes to actually render down bone. And it

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Speaker 1: goes through a variety of process and one of the

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Speaker 1: things that you'll see is that once heat is initially

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Speaker 1: applied to bone, bone will go through a series of

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Speaker 1: color changes. And the first kind of stop along that

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Speaker 1: continuum is it will turn kind of a yellow yellow color.

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Speaker 1: And what what's happening is that the bone itself is

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Speaker 1: beginning to render up any kind of fatty residue that's

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Speaker 1: still contained in there from life, and that's being consumed.

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Speaker 1: And then bone if you look at a bone that

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Speaker 1: has been burned, if it's only exposed to heat for

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Speaker 1: a short period of time, it will take on this

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Speaker 1: kind of yellow color once that is is burned burned off. Particularly,

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Speaker 1: you can really appreciate on the ends of the bone.

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Speaker 1: Say you take a long bone like femur down to

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Speaker 1: say where the knee attachment is or up in the hip.

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Speaker 1: If a body has been dismembered, for instance, you'll get

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Speaker 1: this charring on the tips and it will have a

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Speaker 1: kind of a black color. But if if bone just

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Speaker 1: sits there by itself, but yet it's continued to be

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Speaker 1: subjected to heat. One of the observations that you make

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Speaker 1: is that as the bone begins to heat up, you

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Speaker 1: can have what are referred to as heat related fractures.

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Speaker 1: And this is this is key because when you're looking

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Speaker 1: at a bone and you're trying to assess trauma, you're

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Speaker 1: trying to first off, determine is this anti mortum or

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Speaker 1: post mortem before death or after death? And secondly, is

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Speaker 1: this fracture that you're witnessing. Is this as a result

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Speaker 1: of trauma that was inflicted upon this person or is

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Speaker 1: this a heat related fracture? Because that does happen. Many

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Speaker 1: solid items out there that are subjected to fire will

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Speaker 1: fracture as a result of heat. And that's that happens

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Speaker 1: as a result of contraction or expansion, and so it'll

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Speaker 1: it'll split along those weakest spots. But what's interesting about

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Speaker 1: bone is that when it it does kind of begin

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Speaker 1: to move beyond that heat fracturing stage, it begins to

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Speaker 1: present in a in another way where you have the

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Speaker 1: pattern becomes almost a grid like pattern where it kind

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Speaker 1: of breaks up into these little squares, and then it

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Speaker 1: goes into a stage called calcination, where the bone will

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Speaker 1: have kind of a calcific appearance, almost white. And you

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Speaker 1: have to be very careful with the jackie, very very careful,

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Speaker 1: because when you pick it up, when it has hit

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Speaker 1: that point, it's so absent of any kind of moisture.

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Speaker 1: It's very delicate, and you can just with mirror hand strength,

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Speaker 1: you can actually crumble it in your hands. And then

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Speaker 1: if you've done that, you've lost everything that might have

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Speaker 1: any kind of evidentiary value. Your police officers show up

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Speaker 1: at a home and you're you're looking for missing mother,

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Speaker 1: and the best you can get are what appears to

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Speaker 1: be bloodstains and a remnant of a jaw with a

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Speaker 1: tooth in it. And I gotta tell you, you know,

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Speaker 1: as an investigator, first off, you'd have a very visceral reaction,

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Speaker 1: like something horrible has happened at this point. And I

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Speaker 1: think secondly, you think, well, where do we go from here?

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Speaker 1: What do we do? Because there has to be an

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Speaker 1: explanation for all of this. If she's only been missing

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Speaker 1: for twenty four hours, why did the barrel have such

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Speaker 1: a stinch of decay? Because we know decomposition, while it

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Speaker 1: begins immediately upon death, it takes more time to have

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Speaker 1: such a stinch of decay. Right. I think that many

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Speaker 1: times that people will confuse when you're around a body

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Speaker 1: that has been burned and tissue that has been burned,

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Speaker 1: it gets off a very foul owed or or I'll

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Speaker 1: give you for an example, if anyone there were smelled,

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Speaker 1: for instance, burned hair. It's horrible smell. It's absolutely horrendous,

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Speaker 1: and not just that skin gives off a very vile

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Speaker 1: stench as well. You combine that with the super heat

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Speaker 1: and humidity of Florida, things break down pretty quickly down

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Speaker 1: there in that environment. The police have not released every

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Speaker 1: bit of information in this case, and I really wonder,

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Speaker 1: I really wonder if if this is an event where

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Speaker 1: there was some maybe partial dismemberment that had taken place,

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Speaker 1: Because if you're going to either use the burned barrel

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Speaker 1: or the burned pile, how do you facilitate burning the

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Speaker 1: entire body and rendering it down. What I mean by

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Speaker 1: that is that once you open a body up, once

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Speaker 1: you begin to take a body apart, that also can

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Speaker 1: accelerate the process of become position as well. And even

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Speaker 1: in a short period of time, particularly in very hostile

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Speaker 1: environmental conditions like you have in Florida with the heat

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Speaker 1: and humidity and all of those factors that kind of

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Speaker 1: come along with that. So you've got this kind of

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Speaker 1: combination that's going on, perhaps in a very short period

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Speaker 1: of time down there. So the odor investigators were smelling

355
00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:27,280
Speaker 1: was from the attempt to render down the body. Now,

356
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Speaker 1: part of the body was found in the barrel, but

357
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Speaker 1: there were also bones found in the burn pile. So

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Speaker 1: someone took a shovel or something and moved the body.

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00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:43,159
Speaker 1: I think that, yeah, that's that's quite possible in just

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Speaker 1: jostling of the body, moving the body about and this

361
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Speaker 1: sort of thing. Again, you're introducing these other factors into

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Speaker 1: the equation. When you're manipulating a body that has that's

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Speaker 1: obviously already been deceased. You've already got evidence that there

364
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Speaker 1: was injury because there's so much blood. And so again,

365
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Speaker 1: the injury is going to promote. First off, it's going

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Speaker 1: to promote decomposition, it will accelerate that deepened upon what

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00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:11,760
Speaker 1: types of injuries there are. Are we talking about a

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Speaker 1: blunt force impact injury? Um? Are we talking about the

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Speaker 1: cutting injury, and where those cuts achieved, either anti mortem,

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Speaker 1: before death or post mortem. There was evidence inside the

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Speaker 1: garage they're saying against the door, there was a fantastic

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Speaker 1: struggle that apparently had gone on within the garage in

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Speaker 1: that environment. So how do you explain these this deposition

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Speaker 1: of blood that is kind of all down the hallway

375
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Speaker 1: you talked about, it's in the trunk of the car.

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Speaker 1: You've got this evidence of struggle. You begin to think, Wow,

377
00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:48,560
Speaker 1: this is really scattered. Going into the mindset of what

378
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:51,399
Speaker 1: was going on, this is a very scattered, kind of frenetic,

379
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Speaker 1: disorganized kind of event, and it gives you a sense

380
00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:01,760
Speaker 1: there is a lot of potentially anger that's involved in this,

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Speaker 1: that it is something that's just run completely amock. And

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Speaker 1: of course, just people are always saying domestic situations many

383
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Speaker 1: times turn out to be the most violent of all.

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Speaker 1: So here we run into the quandary again about figuring

385
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Speaker 1: out determining a cause of death. If the body has

386
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Speaker 1: been moved multiple times one and to an attempt has

387
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Speaker 1: been made to cremate the body, how are we going

388
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Speaker 1: to discover, determine, diagnose the cause of death. M Yeah,

389
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:39,440
Speaker 1: that that's a big question. That happens, and you'll see

390
00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:43,359
Speaker 1: death certificates. I've actually seen one very recently that are

391
00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:46,040
Speaker 1: essentially signed out like this. You'll see, you know, as

392
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:48,520
Speaker 1: we've talked about before on bodybacks, where we've got the

393
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,720
Speaker 1: five different manners of death, and in this case, of course,

394
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Speaker 1: that manner of death would be classified by the medical

395
00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 1: examiner down there as a homicide. When you do not

396
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:03,440
Speaker 1: have have a specific cause of death, some people will

397
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:07,119
Speaker 1: say unknown as as cause of death, and that is

398
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:09,479
Speaker 1: that thing that brought about the the end of this

399
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:13,720
Speaker 1: person's life. What was the the primary causal factor of death.

400
00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:20,200
Speaker 1: Some forensic pathologists will list it as non specific homicidal trauma,

401
00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:22,560
Speaker 1: and that's a very broad term. They're kind of going

402
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:27,760
Speaker 1: back and reinforcing what they're what their supposition is relative

403
00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:31,440
Speaker 1: to manner of death. So they're saying, okay, it's non

404
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:35,400
Speaker 1: specific comicidal trauma. And and each think about this. When

405
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:38,800
Speaker 1: a pathologists gets on a stand and they've got to testify,

406
00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:42,080
Speaker 1: the defense council has has a field day with that.

407
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:45,280
Speaker 1: They'll make a big dramatic moment out of it. Before

408
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:48,400
Speaker 1: the jury. They'll say, so, doctor, you have no way

409
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:52,320
Speaker 1: to say what brought about the death of this, How

410
00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:55,480
Speaker 1: can you be so sure it's a homicide? Well, then

411
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:59,000
Speaker 1: it becomes a matter of just kind of logically attempting

412
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:01,879
Speaker 1: to piece this together or from a scientific standpoint, Okay,

413
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:04,000
Speaker 1: if this is not a homicide, how do you explain

414
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:07,800
Speaker 1: that she has been found or the remnant of her

415
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:10,320
Speaker 1: has been found in a burn pile, her body has

416
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:13,040
Speaker 1: been rendered down? Do you realize how long it would

417
00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:16,000
Speaker 1: take for this to happen? And of course you go

418
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:18,280
Speaker 1: into talking about it would take hours and hours and

419
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:23,240
Speaker 1: hours and sustained heat of twelve degrees fahrenheit, and somebody

420
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:25,840
Speaker 1: would have had been tended, it would have had to

421
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:29,240
Speaker 1: have tended to fire. And all the while the jury

422
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:32,040
Speaker 1: is listening to this and they're thinking, oh wow, okay,

423
00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:34,879
Speaker 1: clouds are kind of parting here, and I'm seeing that

424
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:38,879
Speaker 1: probably this death is in fact a homicide. But you know,

425
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:40,760
Speaker 1: you always run a risk with a case like this

426
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 1: because it's prosecutors trying to get this thing to the

427
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:46,760
Speaker 1: point where it's beyond a reasonable doubt. Sometimes the jury

428
00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 1: will be left scratching their head when they're back down

429
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:54,520
Speaker 1: in that little room. So is non specific homicidal trauma

430
00:26:55,280 --> 00:27:00,240
Speaker 1: the same thing as undetermined. Well, yes and no. You

431
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:04,320
Speaker 1: will have friends of pathologists that are out there that

432
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:08,280
Speaker 1: will say undetermined and simply what that is is that

433
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:10,439
Speaker 1: they're shruggling their sheoulders to say, I don't know. I

434
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:12,520
Speaker 1: know it's a homicide, but I don't know what the

435
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 1: cause of death is. When you have somebody that will write, now,

436
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:21,639
Speaker 1: non specific homicidal trauma, it's almost like you're in philosophy

437
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:23,439
Speaker 1: class at that point in time. They're going back to

438
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:26,119
Speaker 1: reinforce their original argument, which is the manner of the

439
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:28,159
Speaker 1: classification of the death, where they're saying, this is in

440
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 1: fact a homicide. And let me state it once more

441
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,879
Speaker 1: for those in the back, this is non specific homicidal trauma.

442
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:36,439
Speaker 1: We know that trauma took place, we know that are

443
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:39,639
Speaker 1: brought about the death of this individual, and not only that,

444
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:42,120
Speaker 1: we know that it was the death at the hands

445
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:45,640
Speaker 1: of another. And that's essentially how you define homicide. And

446
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:48,399
Speaker 1: as a little aside here, like when I teach the

447
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 1: manners of death, I warned my classes in advance, I

448
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 1: don't want to hear them use the term murder because

449
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:58,240
Speaker 1: murder is a lawyer's word, and you find it in

450
00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:01,960
Speaker 1: the canon of law. In various states, you might hear

451
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 1: first degree homicide or first degree murder. Murder has a

452
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:09,600
Speaker 1: very kind of theatrical tone to it, but homicide is

453
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:13,240
Speaker 1: very clinical. It just from a scientific standpoint. You're saying,

454
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:16,480
Speaker 1: in fact, that it is death at the hands of

455
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:19,040
Speaker 1: another that one person brought about the death of another.

456
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:22,359
Speaker 1: You're not necessarily judging. You're not being the judge and

457
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 1: the jury here. You're essentially saying, I believe, based upon

458
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:30,639
Speaker 1: my experience, that this death came at the hands of

459
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:34,280
Speaker 1: another individual, and that's it. You're not you're not trying

460
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 1: to indict anybody or impugne anybody or anything like that.

461
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 1: You're just merely saying that this death and and listen,

462
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:43,959
Speaker 1: there's all manner of homicides out there that you can

463
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 1: have somebody comes into your home and they're threatening you

464
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:52,120
Speaker 1: with violence and you might have to shoot that individual.

465
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:55,600
Speaker 1: That's still a homicide. It's still a homicide. As if

466
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 1: you have somebody that's attacked on a darkened street in

467
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:00,360
Speaker 1: the middle of the night and they're beating to death

468
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,880
Speaker 1: over the contents of their pockets, that's a homicide as well.

469
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:07,440
Speaker 1: Somebody that dies, for instance, as a result of the

470
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:09,840
Speaker 1: death penalty. How are you going to classify that? Well,

471
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:14,040
Speaker 1: that's a homicide. There's no other way to really term it.

472
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:16,440
Speaker 1: So we've only got five things that we can choose

473
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 1: from for classification, and sometimes within those classifications. From a

474
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 1: scientific standpoint, we don't have much more to hang our

475
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 1: hat on scientifically, other than the fact that we've got

476
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 1: a remain that has a creamain as we would call it,

477
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:36,719
Speaker 1: that has been rendered down purposefully it would appear, and

478
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 1: that there was a bunch of blood found in the

479
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:42,600
Speaker 1: house that would be consistent with someone having done harm

480
00:29:42,640 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 1: to this individual. You hear the term reactionary many times.

481
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 1: I don't know how do we react under certain circumstances

482
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:12,960
Speaker 1: when stress is placed upon us. You know, many times

483
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 1: we're still paying the price many years down the road

484
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:20,720
Speaker 1: in our lives collectively as a result of decisions that

485
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:25,640
Speaker 1: we made reactively right and thinking about this case, this

486
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 1: almost smacks of a reactionary event. Like I said earlier,

487
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 1: it's very disordered, kind of disorganized, it seems. For Neddick.

488
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:39,040
Speaker 1: Police said there was a struggle, a great struggle in

489
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 1: the home. Ian Bowknot told police that his ex wife

490
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 1: came to his home. They got into an argument over

491
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 1: another woman, but he didn't want to fight, so he

492
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 1: went to sleep and when he woke up, Katie was gone.

493
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:57,280
Speaker 1: So there's one inconsistency in his story. But as police

494
00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 1: searched his property and his record, they found he faced

495
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 1: a domestic battery charge last year for strangulation. Now ultimately

496
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:09,360
Speaker 1: that case ended up being dropped, but he was charged

497
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:14,760
Speaker 1: with strangling someone. But as police continued to search his

498
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 1: home under their warrant, they found several, let's say, suspicious substances. Yeah,

499
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:25,160
Speaker 1: they did. What was found, according to the police, were

500
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:30,640
Speaker 1: a number of vials of steroids that could be injected essentially,

501
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 1: and these were being held illegally. Steroids have to be prescribed,

502
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 1: and in this particular case, it's almost as if you

503
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:44,520
Speaker 1: wonder if somebody that was in possession of these number

504
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 1: of vials that he had, was he possessing these in

505
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:49,480
Speaker 1: order for personal use or did he possess them in

506
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 1: order to distribute. Of course, that's a that's a question

507
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:56,640
Speaker 1: that the prosecutor would have to answer. But we do

508
00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 1: know that the husband, in fact was bodybuilder. He had

509
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:06,040
Speaker 1: competed certainly at a national level bodybuilding and fro motion

510
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 1: of growth of muscle many times from an artificial standpoint,

511
00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 1: is attained through the use of antibolic steroids. So you

512
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:19,320
Speaker 1: kind of have to understand, you know, what the purposes.

513
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 1: You have antibolic which actually means growth, and then you

514
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:28,720
Speaker 1: have catabolic, which means deterioration or reduction. So with antibolic

515
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:34,080
Speaker 1: antibolic steroids that you would apply from muscle growth, it's

516
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 1: actually what it is. It's synthetic testosterone, and there people

517
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 1: have success with it, I mean, and it's it's been

518
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:47,520
Speaker 1: used certainly therapeutically over the years for say, for instance,

519
00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:50,959
Speaker 1: what people that have diminished issues where they're trying to

520
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:57,080
Speaker 1: attain growth or recover say diminished muscle. But many times

521
00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:00,120
Speaker 1: these are abused and there they're tremendous side effect that

522
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:02,480
Speaker 1: come along with this. You can have them in to

523
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 1: two separate ways. First off, with the use of the

524
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:10,440
Speaker 1: anabolic steroids, you can wind up having serious heart complications.

525
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 1: There's adverse reaction that leads to heightened cholesterol in the system.

526
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 1: You can also have other systemic issues that a company

527
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:23,280
Speaker 1: abuse of it. But also I think one of the

528
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 1: things that people are most familiar with, I think is

529
00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 1: this concept of what people have termed as roid rage.

530
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 1: When an embolic steroids are introduced into the system, it

531
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:41,640
Speaker 1: impacts the limbic system in the brain. And the limbic

532
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 1: system is not some people call it the limbic gland,

533
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:46,760
Speaker 1: but it's not actually a gland. The system kind of

534
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:50,160
Speaker 1: ranges throughout various areas in the brain. But what it

535
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:53,800
Speaker 1: comes down to is that the centers within the brain,

536
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:58,240
Speaker 1: the limbic system, can actually control our motion, our ability

537
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:01,680
Speaker 1: to kind of contain our self relative to being in

538
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:04,880
Speaker 1: a passive spot in life or maybe being highly aggressive.

539
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:09,319
Speaker 1: So we know what this means aggressive. And there were

540
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 1: big neon letters of flash across the sky as soon

541
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:16,719
Speaker 1: as you said that, saying Royd rage, Royd rage, Royd rage.

542
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:22,040
Speaker 1: What is Royd rage and what causes it? How do

543
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 1: steroids turn you into the incredible hulk? That's probably the

544
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 1: first image that that really conjures up for all of

545
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:32,120
Speaker 1: us that you're going to be stimulated to this point

546
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:35,840
Speaker 1: and and you actually see this aggression that will manifest

547
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:40,520
Speaker 1: itself through steroid abuse, particularly those that are doing it habitually.

548
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:43,319
Speaker 1: That kind of work at a very high level many

549
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:47,760
Speaker 1: times as it impacts the brain. When the antabolic steroid

550
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:51,280
Speaker 1: is applied, not only are you going to have muscle

551
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:54,960
Speaker 1: growth and you will see results as a result of that,

552
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:59,040
Speaker 1: but it's also impacting the brain. And when people are

553
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 1: working out, steroids slams into the brain, slams into it

554
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:07,160
Speaker 1: at a chemical level and impacts limbic system in the brain.

555
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:11,200
Speaker 1: You have this kind of aggressive nature that will manifest

556
00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 1: itself in in many many people. And look, that's that's

557
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:16,800
Speaker 1: something I would think that if you're working out in

558
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 1: the gym, many people look at the weights as something

559
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:21,720
Speaker 1: to attack and they go after it and they've seeing

560
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:25,080
Speaker 1: substantial growth from a muscle standpoint. Now this is being

561
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:28,919
Speaker 1: promoted physiologically, you know the reaction with the muscles, you're

562
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:33,319
Speaker 1: having growth, but also with this this kind of animalistic

563
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:36,719
Speaker 1: rage that's impacting the limbic system. This is actually the

564
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:41,520
Speaker 1: primal brain. People call it lizard brain, and even reptiles

565
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:44,279
Speaker 1: have this limbic system within their brain and it it

566
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:47,279
Speaker 1: goes to aggression that you see. And so we have

567
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:49,719
Speaker 1: this and it's rooted in our primal brain. A matter

568
00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:53,239
Speaker 1: of fact, they think the limbic system actually developed before

569
00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:55,759
Speaker 1: our our frontal brain. Did you know that gives us

570
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:58,799
Speaker 1: a kind of higher function. So it's very primal, it's

571
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:01,880
Speaker 1: very base. That's we're a thing. And so if that

572
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 1: is constantly stimulated as a result of the presence of

573
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:10,280
Speaker 1: the substance in a system, wouldn't it be difficult even

574
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:12,400
Speaker 1: with those that you love to kind of dial it

575
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:16,240
Speaker 1: back if you've got this external stimulus is coming into

576
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:19,640
Speaker 1: the system. Those that you should be kind and gentle

577
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:23,239
Speaker 1: and long suffering with, perhaps they're not going to have

578
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:25,719
Speaker 1: that in their life. They're going to be dealing with

579
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:28,480
Speaker 1: somebody that could potentially be a monster. So when we

580
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:32,200
Speaker 1: talk about royd rage, we're not talking about not being

581
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:36,319
Speaker 1: able to control yourself. Correct, We're not talking about that.

582
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:39,200
Speaker 1: We're talking about this influence of a substance that comes

583
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:43,880
Speaker 1: into a system where it's not simply you've got impulse

584
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:48,280
Speaker 1: control issues for instance, okay, which might be a naturally

585
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 1: occurring condition that an individual has, and that's not what

586
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:54,000
Speaker 1: we're talking about. We're talking about somebody that takes a

587
00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:57,880
Speaker 1: substance that comes into their system and it it actually

588
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:02,120
Speaker 1: changes their nature, changes how they react, you see, like

589
00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:06,200
Speaker 1: heightened obviously issues with with anger that can be set

590
00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:09,840
Speaker 1: off very very easy. I mean, by the most benign

591
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:12,840
Speaker 1: type of thing that can occur they've become And here's

592
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 1: one that a lot of people don't really realize that

593
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:17,920
Speaker 1: it stimulates this area of the brain, the area kind

594
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:21,760
Speaker 1: of controls the jealousy. So even the smallest little slight

595
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:25,440
Speaker 1: or perception of a slight that they might have can

596
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:30,200
Speaker 1: be something that just suddenly explodes relative to their perception. Like,

597
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:32,480
Speaker 1: for instance, if two people are involved in a relationship

598
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:35,840
Speaker 1: and individual is you know, dealing with this antabolic steroid

599
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:38,680
Speaker 1: in their system, a partner looking over to glance at

600
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:43,120
Speaker 1: another person could be in their mind perceived as though

601
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:45,799
Speaker 1: that individual is having an affair with that person. It

602
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:48,560
Speaker 1: can be that over the top, or if you just

603
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 1: casually say hello to somebody, it can actually trigger this

604
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 1: this ugly, ugly monster of jealousy within them and that

605
00:37:56,680 --> 00:37:59,880
Speaker 1: can lead to a very violent reaction. So is it

606
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:05,040
Speaker 1: the amount of steroids used, because we do know, I mean,

607
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:09,520
Speaker 1: we've almost everybody has seen or known someone through the

608
00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:13,360
Speaker 1: years that have had to use steroids at some point

609
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:17,160
Speaker 1: for an injury or an asthma, ailment or whatever is

610
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:20,759
Speaker 1: going on with your body as a treatment. Is that

611
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 1: the dosage is that the general misuse is that the

612
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:30,640
Speaker 1: application what causes roid rage. When you're talking about the

613
00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:34,880
Speaker 1: application of steroids to treatment, there's not only antibolic steroids.

614
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:37,120
Speaker 1: They're a variety of different types of steroids that are

615
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:40,200
Speaker 1: out there. You know you mentioned asthma, Well, that's that's

616
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:42,480
Speaker 1: not the same as the treatment that you would apply

617
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:44,960
Speaker 1: for That is not going to be the same as

618
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:47,840
Speaker 1: an antibolic steroids. They're all purposed for a different reason.

619
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:50,200
Speaker 1: All of them have their upside and they all have

620
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:54,760
Speaker 1: their downside. Unfortunately, with antibolic steroids, it's meant to enhance

621
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:58,840
Speaker 1: your ability to build muscle. Specifically, that's not something that

622
00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:02,520
Speaker 1: you're going to apply lie in order to treat other conditions.

623
00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:08,200
Speaker 1: This is specifically targeted to create and encourage muscle growth

624
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:13,280
Speaker 1: in individuals. Unfortunately, the side effect with the antibolic steroid

625
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:18,239
Speaker 1: is how it impacts the brain and your ability to

626
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:23,040
Speaker 1: act and react. So what has happened is that you've

627
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:27,600
Speaker 1: removed the governor, okay, out of your brain, that thing

628
00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:30,680
Speaker 1: that kind of controls how you're going to behave, what

629
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:34,239
Speaker 1: is acceptable, and how you're going to behave that the

630
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:37,520
Speaker 1: governor is off on that thing, and so that's what

631
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:41,439
Speaker 1: makes individuals that are suffering from royd rage, as it's

632
00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:44,600
Speaker 1: been termed. That's what makes them so unpredictable and so

633
00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:47,960
Speaker 1: very dangerous. I think to two people, even even around

634
00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:51,359
Speaker 1: individuals that they love very much, it can make you

635
00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:55,240
Speaker 1: angry enough that you would dismember someone that you loved

636
00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:59,080
Speaker 1: and destroy their body. Yes, yeah, absolutely it can. It

637
00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:01,680
Speaker 1: can get you to the point where you would commit

638
00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 1: a homicide, and that that's the that's the shame in

639
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:06,760
Speaker 1: it all, And it can get you to the point

640
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:09,360
Speaker 1: where you become an individual that people don't want to

641
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:11,719
Speaker 1: have anything to do with because they know that the

642
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 1: slightest little thing can be misinterpreted. You can fly off

643
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:18,560
Speaker 1: the handle very quickly. So it compromises a lot of

644
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 1: different areas in your life. Your ability to certainly communicate

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00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:24,160
Speaker 1: with those that you're in an intement relationship with, whether

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00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:27,120
Speaker 1: it's your your spouse, or you know that loving relationship

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00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:30,080
Speaker 1: you have with your kids, are kind of friendly relationship

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00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:33,920
Speaker 1: you have with those that you work with. You're unpredictable.

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00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:36,560
Speaker 1: You don't know what's going to happen with these individuals

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00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:40,440
Speaker 1: at any moment time, and so it's not too far

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00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:42,920
Speaker 1: of a step beyond that where you could actually take

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00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:47,240
Speaker 1: somebody's life. Ian Bonnoc is six ft three inches tall.

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00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:51,040
Speaker 1: He weighs two d and fifty pounds and he has

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00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:58,120
Speaker 1: competed in the i FBB Master's National Bodybuilding Championship. He

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00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:02,840
Speaker 1: is now charged with them murder of his ex wife.

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Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body Bags m