1 00:00:00,960 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: Now Virginia. They'll be like, oh, you dissolved our burgesses. 2 00:00:04,519 --> 00:00:05,080 Speaker 2: Exactly? 3 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:08,959 Speaker 1: Can we discuss this? Not in Boston? No, you're so right. 4 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:12,440 Speaker 1: The vibe was so different, Sam Adams. Of course he's 5 00:00:12,520 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 1: out of all this. And sure, you know, he's just 6 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:17,800 Speaker 1: brewing beer and they're drinking it and they're getting pissed 7 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:19,440 Speaker 1: off and you know they're ready to go. 8 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:36,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, they're riled up. Welcome to Snafu, your favorite podcast 9 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:40,120 Speaker 2: about history's greatest screw ups, or more precisely, a show 10 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 2: about what our failures and feibers say about humanity as 11 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:47,560 Speaker 2: a whole, and spoiler alert, it's mostly not very good. 12 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 2: I'm your host ed Helms and my guest today is 13 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:54,480 Speaker 2: the definition of a multi hyphen it. He is the 14 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:57,959 Speaker 2: bassist and a founding member of one of my all 15 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 2: time favorite bands, The Avid Others. He also is an 16 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:06,480 Speaker 2: historian I love this. He hosts American History Hotline for 17 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:11,160 Speaker 2: iHeart Podcasts and The Road to Now on Sirius XM, 18 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 2: and now his first book is coming out. It's called 19 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:22,600 Speaker 2: America's Founding Son, John Quincy Adams from President to political maverick. 20 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:26,200 Speaker 2: I'm super excited to have him on SNAFU this week. 21 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:28,520 Speaker 2: Welcome Bob Crawford. 22 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:32,000 Speaker 1: Thank you ed it. It's a joy to be here. 23 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 2: Heck yeah, I mean I have to say I I 24 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:38,800 Speaker 2: don't even remember when we met long long time ago, 25 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 2: but I have only very recently learned of your history nerdiness, 26 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 2: and this might be my new favorite thing about you. 27 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 1: It's one of the better things about me. So yes, 28 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:51,520 Speaker 1: pick that one and go with it. Yeah, and it 29 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 1: kind of comes out of the band. You know, we've 30 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 1: been together for twenty five years, maybe going on twenty six, 31 00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 1: and all those years driving around in a fifteen passenger 32 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:06,320 Speaker 1: van for eight hours a day, read read, read, you know, 33 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:08,800 Speaker 1: is the perfect time to read. And I got really 34 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:11,640 Speaker 1: curious about American history in the around the time of 35 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 1: the of the Iraq War. How did we get here? 36 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:19,760 Speaker 1: Sure from seventeen seventy six to Abu Garabe if you remember, Yeah, Iraqi. 37 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:22,080 Speaker 2: That's a present. That's a crooked line. 38 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 1: That's a cruiz. It is a crooked line. And I 39 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:26,359 Speaker 1: want and so I started with the David McCullough books. 40 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:28,519 Speaker 1: This is two thousand and four, two thousand and five, great, 41 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 1: the John Adams seventeen seventy six led me to Sean 42 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:35,920 Speaker 1: will Lentz the Rise of American Democracy from Jefferson to Lincoln. 43 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:39,120 Speaker 1: Highly recommend it and that I was kind of on 44 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:39,920 Speaker 1: and on from there. 45 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 2: Very cool. Now are you a are you a like 46 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 2: a heavy paper book guy? Are you a kindle guy? 47 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:49,360 Speaker 2: Audio books? 48 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:49,520 Speaker 1: Like? 49 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 2: What's your game? What's your book game? 50 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:54,680 Speaker 1: I am? My book game is all and everything it 51 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 1: is seriously because like you know, for Roach now our 52 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:03,400 Speaker 1: American History Hotline, you're trying to absorb someone's book sometimes 53 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 1: in two weeks so I'll be reading the book and 54 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:09,079 Speaker 1: listening if it's on the audio. I do that too. 55 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 1: You know, I wrote this book on the road. Much 56 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:14,079 Speaker 1: of it I wrote on the road. 57 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:14,280 Speaker 2: Wow. 58 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 1: Because again you know you've got sound check at two, 59 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 1: stage at eight sometimes later. So yeah, a lot of 60 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:22,920 Speaker 1: hours to write a book. 61 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:23,800 Speaker 2: Wow. 62 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:26,959 Speaker 1: And then you know a lot of this research we can. 63 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 1: You can read the congressional record going back to the 64 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:32,239 Speaker 1: first Congress. It's it's all online. 65 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:33,239 Speaker 2: So cool. 66 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 1: Yeah. 67 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, oh man, you are a giant nerd. I love it. Now. 68 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 2: I can't help but connect these dots because I know 69 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 2: it's true for me. I don't know exactly how, but 70 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 2: I know that my interest in history is connected to 71 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 2: my love of more traditional music forms. So like, I'm 72 00:03:55,320 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 2: very into folk music and and I'm viously i'm a 73 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 2: banjo player for bluegrass music. And to me, I feel 74 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 2: like those those music forms have have been a like 75 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 2: a vessel or a connection to history in a in 76 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 2: a way, almost in a subconscious way. I love the 77 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:18,440 Speaker 2: music like very sort of on a superficial level. It 78 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:21,599 Speaker 2: just makes me feel good, but there's also something about 79 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:24,359 Speaker 2: it that feels connected to an earlier time, into like 80 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 2: a deeper sort of historical meaning. And I wonder if 81 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:31,720 Speaker 2: that's true for you, because the Avitt Brothers sound is 82 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:36,159 Speaker 2: so rooted in so many of these great old music traditions. 83 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:37,680 Speaker 1: Right well, for the a of It's It's It's It's 84 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:41,480 Speaker 1: Charlie Poole, or it's you know the songs that Doc 85 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 1: Watson popularized in the sixties, that that really are turn 86 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:48,080 Speaker 1: of the century, if not before. And the short answer 87 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:52,080 Speaker 1: is yes, And I'm always trying to I'm always amazed 88 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:55,560 Speaker 1: by some American songs and how far they go back. 89 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 2: Wow. 90 00:04:56,680 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 1: Yes, music connects us to the past, and sometimes it 91 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:03,720 Speaker 1: connects us more directly than we previously imagined. 92 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:08,120 Speaker 2: Amen Well said, this is a cool episode today. You 93 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 2: obviously have a deep knowledge of sort of colonial and 94 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 2: post independence America. You're gonna have some room to flex 95 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 2: today because we're dipping into a great snaffo right in 96 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:26,400 Speaker 2: the pre American revolution pressure cooker. We're heading to British 97 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:32,360 Speaker 2: run Virginia, where a Scottish aristocrat with elite NEPO baby energy, 98 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:38,200 Speaker 2: John Murray, the fourth Earl of Dunmore aka Lord Dunmore, 99 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 2: was serving as the crown appointed governor while the whispers 100 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:46,560 Speaker 2: of rebellion were slowly building into a roar, And in 101 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:50,800 Speaker 2: true snafu fashion, our Lord Dunmore managed to take a 102 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:55,719 Speaker 2: tense situation and just absolutely dowse it with kerosene with 103 00:05:55,839 --> 00:06:02,839 Speaker 2: a spectacularly ill timed proclamation that fully supercharged revolutionary war 104 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:06,559 Speaker 2: fervor up and down the colonies. Bob, are you ready 105 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:07,280 Speaker 2: to snapoo? 106 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:09,279 Speaker 1: I am ready to snap foo? 107 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:18,680 Speaker 2: All right? Now, does Lord Dunmore set off any alarm 108 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 2: bells for you? 109 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:23,320 Speaker 1: Well, so, I'm thinking Williamsburg, Virginia. 110 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:27,120 Speaker 2: Yes, Lord Dunmore is the is the crown appointed governor 111 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:30,800 Speaker 2: of the colony Virginia. What year are we in? Right 112 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:34,240 Speaker 2: in the pre Revolutionary war period, the seventeen seventies like 113 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 2: early seventeen seventies. But we're going to start by going 114 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:41,040 Speaker 2: back a bit further. So here's a little backstory on 115 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 2: our main man. Done Moore born in Tamuth, Scotland, in 116 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:48,599 Speaker 2: seventeen thirty. His father, the third Earl of Dunmore, actually 117 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:51,240 Speaker 2: fought against King George the Second as a member of 118 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 2: the Jacobite Army in seventeen forty six. His father was imprisoned, 119 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:59,599 Speaker 2: but was eventually freed in seventeen fifty. That very same year, John, 120 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 2: perhaps motivated by his father's failures, joined the British Army, 121 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:08,600 Speaker 2: cementing his allegiance to the Crown forever more. We have 122 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 2: a portrait of Lord dune More. Here it is. Oh yes, yea, 123 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 2: he is sharpish. Oh yes, he's leaning hard. I mean 124 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:23,600 Speaker 2: there's I count at least three different plaids going on 125 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:31,040 Speaker 2: in this portrait. The socks, the kilt, very fashion forward. Yeah. 126 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:31,960 Speaker 1: Would he be a dandy? 127 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 2: This painting does give dandy vibes, But I think we'll 128 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:41,520 Speaker 2: learn that he's actually a pretty tough cookie. Okay, all right, 129 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 2: So he served the king very well, and in seventeen 130 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 2: seventy he was rewarded with a new appointment as the 131 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 2: Royal Governor of New York. He left his wife, Charlotte 132 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 2: and their eight children back in Britain. Now, leaving your 133 00:07:56,920 --> 00:08:00,160 Speaker 2: family is always tough, but maybe with eight kids, it's like, 134 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 2: get me the hell. 135 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 1: Out of here. 136 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 2: Maybe maybe we both travel a lot, right, shoots and 137 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 2: I go on shoots. You go on tour. Yeah, and 138 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:13,360 Speaker 2: whatever chaos is on the calendar. What's your road, dad playbook? 139 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 1: Oh man, I have two kids. I have fourteen year 140 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 1: old Samuel, who's fourteen year old. Like, that's yeah, everything 141 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 1: that comes with that. Then I have a sixteen year 142 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 1: old special needs daughter named Hallie, who is a three 143 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 1: time brain tumor survivor and a Saint Jude kid. Well, 144 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:37,439 Speaker 1: she is amazing, but you can imagine how complicated our 145 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:40,960 Speaker 1: home life is. Sure, so that just and then my 146 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 1: wife is incredible, and so she's dealing. I'm gone, and 147 00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 1: we have crafted are over the quarter century of Avitt 148 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 1: Brothers touring. We have finally crafted it to where we 149 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:57,840 Speaker 1: don't go for more than two weeks. We often don't 150 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:00,960 Speaker 1: go for more than ten days. Amazing, But I always 151 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:03,280 Speaker 1: come home and mess up everything. My wife has everything 152 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:06,600 Speaker 1: running just smooth and great. And then I come home 153 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:09,160 Speaker 1: and I just everything just goes the hell. 154 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 2: As we like to say, there's friction on re entry, 155 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 2: there is well. No matter how he felt about leaving 156 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 2: his family behind, Lord Dunmore eventually grew to enjoy his 157 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:22,520 Speaker 2: gig in the States. Despite being known as and I 158 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 2: quote a gamester and a drunkard, he somehow thrived in 159 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:29,800 Speaker 2: New York. By seventeen seventy one, the British government decided 160 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 2: to relocate him further south as Governor of Virginia. Now 161 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 2: this was supposedly a promotion. Going to Virginia. The Crown 162 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:42,280 Speaker 2: considered Virginia to be sort of the shining jewel of 163 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 2: the colonies, you know, massive tobacco exports. But surprise, Dunmore 164 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:54,080 Speaker 2: hated it. He truly despised Virginia, especially the weather and 165 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:58,559 Speaker 2: the quote little or no society. You know, it's a 166 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:01,079 Speaker 2: bit of a it's a backwater at the point it is, 167 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 2: you're right, very much unlike New York City, which is 168 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:09,200 Speaker 2: a pretty serious little metropolis. It's it's nothing, obviously like 169 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:12,480 Speaker 2: it is now, but at least there's there's some society, 170 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 2: there's culture. And he didn't think there was any of 171 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 2: that in Virginia. So I grew up in the South. 172 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 2: You grew up in where I grew up in South Jersey, 173 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:22,640 Speaker 2: South Jersey. I grew up in the South. I grew 174 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 2: amazing about three miles from Atlantic City. Oh that's so funny. 175 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:30,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and there was society. It was kind of rough, 176 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:34,440 Speaker 1: sure at times in some places, but yeah, yeah there was. 177 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:37,560 Speaker 1: We had Philly forty five minutes in New York City 178 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 1: two hours, you know. 179 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 2: So I feel like, in modern terms, like you can 180 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 2: find so much culture anywhere. Now. 181 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 1: Absolutely, yeah, there's. 182 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:51,960 Speaker 2: So much going on everywhere. But at this time I 183 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 2: have to think maybe maybe he's right. They probably Virginia 184 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:58,080 Speaker 2: at the time, the Colony of Virginia may not have 185 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:01,200 Speaker 2: had the artistic community that the New York cat. 186 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 1: No, and everybody spread out there, you know, like you 187 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 1: have a ritation and then you got twenty miles another plantation. 188 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 2: Like I said, they thought this was a promotion. I 189 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 2: think he was doing okay by the Crown's estimation. But 190 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:20,280 Speaker 2: once he settled into Williamsburg, which was Virginia's capital at 191 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:24,160 Speaker 2: the time, Richmond would come later seventeen eighty, Lord Dunmore 192 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:27,240 Speaker 2: wasted no time stirring the bot. He allegedly had an 193 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 2: affair with a woman who was in court battling her 194 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:33,120 Speaker 2: estranged husband, which might sound like just some regular old, 195 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 2: spicy colonial gossip except for one tiny, detailed done Moore 196 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:40,920 Speaker 2: was actually the chief justice presiding over this case. So 197 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:42,680 Speaker 2: real statesman energy here. 198 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 1: Right, Well these days, these days, he was Yeah, you're 199 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:48,199 Speaker 1: right fit, he would fit right in, right. I know, 200 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:52,080 Speaker 1: you get jokes, but you can bring who can bring accountability? 201 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:56,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, I'm being ironic, but the irony is lost 202 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 2: on today's society. 203 00:11:57,960 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, we've given that up. 204 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, it sounds less like he was governing a colony 205 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:04,880 Speaker 2: and more like he was workshopping a reality show. 206 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:07,720 Speaker 1: Which is what Williamsburg became. Yeah, reality show. 207 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:12,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, for real, you know, colonial Williamsburg. Indeed. So fast 208 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:15,480 Speaker 2: forward to seventeen seventy four, a banner year for Lord Dunmore, 209 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:17,960 Speaker 2: and not in a fun way. This is when his 210 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 2: storyline shifts from colonial gossip column to hold by powdered Wig. 211 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:28,319 Speaker 2: The entire colonial world is already vibrating with tension. Britain 212 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:32,199 Speaker 2: and the colonies are locked in that passive aggressive relationship 213 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:35,120 Speaker 2: phase where everyone says their fine, but someone's about to 214 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:39,120 Speaker 2: flip a table. The patriots are furious over Parliament's power grabs, 215 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:43,320 Speaker 2: especially the whole taxation without representation thing, and this tension 216 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:47,240 Speaker 2: sparked events like the Boston massacre in seventeen seventy and 217 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:50,600 Speaker 2: of course the famous Boston Tea Party in seventeen seventy three. 218 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:53,840 Speaker 2: So people were mad tea was soggy. 219 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 1: Right, this is the moment of critical mass. Yeah, muskets 220 00:12:57,200 --> 00:12:59,960 Speaker 1: are getting dusted off here. Open warfare has not affici 221 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:03,200 Speaker 1: really started. But the vibe is revolutionary. Let's put it 222 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 1: that way. 223 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:06,960 Speaker 2: We're about to dive more specifically into done more any other, 224 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 2: any more color on this sort of time period. You 225 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:12,200 Speaker 2: want to share just from your insight, what do you 226 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 2: love about it? 227 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:16,040 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, right, this is when everything's about to about 228 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:18,959 Speaker 1: to hit the fan. And so we think of the 229 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 1: Revolutionary War as a revolutionary war. But as ken Burns 230 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:25,880 Speaker 1: recently pointed out with his massive series that came out 231 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 1: about the American Revolution, the revolutionary War was actually a 232 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:34,760 Speaker 1: civil war, and the civil war was a revolution. And 233 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 1: so if you think about that, you had you probably 234 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:42,560 Speaker 1: at this point in Virginia in the tide water. You 235 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:45,680 Speaker 1: had probably had one plantation where they were ready to 236 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:52,719 Speaker 1: cast off the crown and seeking independence because people who 237 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 1: lived in the colonies for many years they were left 238 00:13:57,080 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 1: alone and they wanted to be left alone. So they 239 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:02,240 Speaker 1: were happy with the king as long as he wasn't 240 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:07,000 Speaker 1: taxing the paper or the tea or all of that 241 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:10,280 Speaker 1: kind of stuff. But then you had those people, probably 242 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:14,199 Speaker 1: neighbors who were die hard crown like they were right 243 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:17,079 Speaker 1: or die crown. So this is probably where we are 244 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:20,040 Speaker 1: where there's the tensions are building and it's a which 245 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:21,200 Speaker 1: side or you won moment. 246 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 2: It's a real mixed bag. You're exactly right. There are 247 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 2: plenty of people. Most people are kind of in a 248 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:29,960 Speaker 2: more libertarian camp of just kind of hey, leave me alone, 249 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 2: let me make my money, and we're about to see 250 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 2: how Dune Moore just kind of totally steps in it 251 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 2: in this whole situation. How did he become central to 252 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:47,840 Speaker 2: this growing crisis. Well, he was first and foremost a 253 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:52,320 Speaker 2: representative of the British Crown, obviously appointed by London. His 254 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:56,560 Speaker 2: duty was to enforce imperial policy in Virginia. So by 255 00:14:56,600 --> 00:15:01,240 Speaker 2: seventeen seventy four he was operating within Virginia's established political framework. 256 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 2: This was the House of Burgesses, founded in sixteen nineteen. 257 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:08,840 Speaker 2: The Burgesses was the colonies elected assembly, largely made up 258 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 2: of influential landowners and planters. They met with the Royal 259 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 2: Governor and his council to manage colonial affairs. Now, as 260 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 2: tensions between Britain and the Colonies intensified, that working relationship 261 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:26,680 Speaker 2: would steadily unravel. Fun fact, the House of Burgesses was 262 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 2: actually kind of like the farm team for the American Revolution. 263 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:34,359 Speaker 2: This is where guys like George Washington, Patrick Henry Thomas Jefferson, 264 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 2: and of course Richard Henry Lee they all sharpened their 265 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 2: political teeth. So there was let's just say, there are 266 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:46,840 Speaker 2: a lot of fumes in the tank and all it 267 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:47,520 Speaker 2: needs is a. 268 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:48,600 Speaker 1: Spark, that's right. 269 00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:52,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, these are some of the most way. 270 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:55,800 Speaker 1: If you're listening to this, you can go see the 271 00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:59,600 Speaker 1: Capitol building. We're done more, the Royal whatever they. 272 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 2: Got's palace, Dunmore's Palace. 273 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:06,040 Speaker 1: It's all there. Wow, I have never busy world for 274 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 1: this conversation. 275 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 2: Oh perfect, listeners, get out there. 276 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 1: Yeah. 277 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:13,440 Speaker 2: I am yet to get to Colonial Williamsburg, and I 278 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 2: can't wait when I do get there. I'm just going 279 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 2: to geek out. I'm going to drive all the employees crazy, like, hey, wait, 280 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 2: what was this? Where did you get this? 281 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 1: I make a confession. I go yearly. I really truly 282 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 1: enjoy it. And yes it is complete geek fest. 283 00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 2: I love it. 284 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 1: But by the way, the music is great, I believe it. 285 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:33,600 Speaker 2: This brings us to May twenty sixth, seventeen seventy four, 286 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:38,920 Speaker 2: when Dunmore had breakfast with George Washington. This seemed to 287 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 2: go well. These guys had a lot in common. They 288 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 2: had similar sort of societal tastes and aspirations. According to Washington, 289 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:49,960 Speaker 2: this was a good meeting and who knows, and maybe 290 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:52,440 Speaker 2: in another life they could have been besties. But later 291 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 2: that very day, Dunmore received orders from the Crown to 292 00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 2: stop the troublesome House of Burgesses from make such a 293 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:07,000 Speaker 2: stink over British policies. Dunmore's solution dissolve the House of Burgesses. 294 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:10,160 Speaker 2: Just break it up, get everyone out of there. This 295 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 2: is a really fascinating detail. This sort of straw that 296 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 2: broke the Camel's back with the House of Burgesses was 297 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 2: that they wanted to commemorate the Boston Tea Party with 298 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 2: a day of fasting or something like that. And this 299 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:28,919 Speaker 2: was a decree that only the Crown would normally be 300 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:34,240 Speaker 2: have the power to decree, and so this was seen 301 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:36,720 Speaker 2: as a sort of subtle affront to the Crown. 302 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:39,360 Speaker 1: It doesn't seem like there's anything subtle about it. 303 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 2: Well, the subtlety is that it's such a genteel thing 304 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:45,679 Speaker 2: right to have a day of fasting and prayer in 305 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 2: commemoration of something, but to sort of take that mantle 306 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 2: themselves was just a tiny little fuck you to the Crown. 307 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:56,080 Speaker 2: And so that's why they kind of forced Dunmore's hand. 308 00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 2: He had to be like, God, you can't do that. 309 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:02,480 Speaker 2: You got it, You're broken up. So yeah, every last member, 310 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:05,719 Speaker 2: including Washington, the very guy he shared breakfast with just 311 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:09,280 Speaker 2: hours earlier, was basically sent home. What message does this 312 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:14,600 Speaker 2: send to the people, to the colonists when an unelected 313 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 2: governor can just unilaterally dissolve an elected body, and then 314 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:23,080 Speaker 2: how long can people just like stop asking politely to 315 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:24,680 Speaker 2: be ruled. 316 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:29,200 Speaker 1: So this moment in seventeen seventy four is when people 317 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 1: realize we're subjects. That's all we are. We're just subjects. 318 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 1: He can dissolve whatever the hell he wants to dissolve. 319 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 1: If he wants to send an army here and kill us, all, 320 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 1: he can do that unless unless we say no more. 321 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:46,919 Speaker 1: That's it. No, We're going to take matters into our 322 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 1: own hands. 323 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 2: Oh, very cool. I like the way that you framed that. 324 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:54,560 Speaker 2: Despite all this political tension, Dunmore was actually strengthening his 325 00:18:54,600 --> 00:19:00,439 Speaker 2: standing with many wealthy Virginians by supporting Western expansion. Tensions 326 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 2: between colonial settlers and the Shawnee, the Native American tribes 327 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:10,960 Speaker 2: and Appalachia there had escalated into what became known as 328 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:14,919 Speaker 2: Dunmore's War in seventeen seventy four. So after a series 329 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:18,640 Speaker 2: of battles, including the Battle of Point Pleasant, the Shawnee 330 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:23,119 Speaker 2: agreed to seed claims south of Ohio River, effectively opening 331 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:27,240 Speaker 2: up what is now present day Kentucky two colonial settlement. 332 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:30,639 Speaker 2: So for many land hungary Virginians, this was a great 333 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:36,959 Speaker 2: victory and something that they appreciated in Lord Dunmore and 334 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 2: earned him a lot of good will. Unfortunately, this goodwill 335 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 2: would not last. Things are about to go real bad 336 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:48,280 Speaker 2: for Dunmore. Let's broaden out a little bit, just for 337 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:51,480 Speaker 2: some additional context. We're going to go up to Massachusetts, 338 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:56,440 Speaker 2: royal authorities are suddenly dealing with a situation so chaotic 339 00:19:56,520 --> 00:20:00,320 Speaker 2: it earned its own dramatic title, the Powder Alarm of 340 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:04,960 Speaker 2: seventeen seventy four. So after the Boston Tea Party Parliament 341 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:11,160 Speaker 2: passed the deeply unpopular coercive Acts dubbed the Intolerable Acts 342 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:15,920 Speaker 2: via Colonists, and one of these acts barred Boston colonists 343 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:19,520 Speaker 2: from choosing who represented them in the Council, the Massachusetts 344 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:23,199 Speaker 2: government's upper house. Naturally, they were too thrilled about this, 345 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:30,000 Speaker 2: and they prepared for possible conflict by moving munitions and 346 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:36,720 Speaker 2: gunpowder from their usual storage locations to more secretive storehouses. 347 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:40,120 Speaker 1: Right in Boston. It was like, it's Boston, right, it's 348 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 1: Boston in twenty twenty six, and you know how Boston 349 00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 1: is in twenty twenty six. It was Boston in seventeen 350 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:49,359 Speaker 1: seventy four. And they're not taking any share, yes from anybody. 351 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:51,800 Speaker 2: No, there they were riled up. 352 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:55,919 Speaker 1: No Virginia, they'll be like, oh, you dissolved our burgesses exactly? 353 00:20:56,119 --> 00:21:01,880 Speaker 1: Will Can we discuss this yes another way, sir? No, No, 354 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 1: not in Boston. 355 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:06,439 Speaker 2: No, you're so right. The vibe was so different drinking. 356 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 1: They are just you know, Sam Adams, of course he's 357 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:12,199 Speaker 1: out of all this, and sure, you know, he's just 358 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:15,119 Speaker 1: brewing beer and they're drinking it and they're getting pissed 359 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:16,719 Speaker 1: off and you know they're ready to go. 360 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:19,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, they're riled up. So they hid a bunch of 361 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 2: these munitions and gunpowder and the British clocked it and 362 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:26,640 Speaker 2: they were like, oh, that's not cool, guys. They reacted swiftly. 363 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:31,720 Speaker 2: On September one, seventeen seventy four, General Thomas Gage ordered 364 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:35,119 Speaker 2: British troops to seize the weapons in gunpowder from a 365 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 2: Charlestown storehouse. Now news spread and suddenly more than four 366 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:45,280 Speaker 2: thousand Patriot militiamen mobilized to protest. This shocked the Brits. 367 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:48,520 Speaker 2: They were like, whoa, we had no idea. Colonists were 368 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:53,840 Speaker 2: not only so mad but also alarmingly good at organizing 369 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:56,960 Speaker 2: on short notice. You know, they had set up these 370 00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:00,439 Speaker 2: networks already. I mean, what did British officials think was 371 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:03,480 Speaker 2: gonna happen when they stripped people of representation and just 372 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 2: started confiscating their guns. It's like a thank you note. 373 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:07,959 Speaker 2: I don't know. 374 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:11,880 Speaker 1: Basically, Britain at this point had been in charge for 375 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:14,439 Speaker 1: so long. Yeah, it had been so they were. They 376 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:16,800 Speaker 1: had the greatest army in the world at this point. 377 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:21,400 Speaker 1: So they're in COACKI they don't like it, they'll shut 378 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:24,920 Speaker 1: it down. And they must have thought that people did 379 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:29,639 Speaker 1: not have the uh, the fortitude and the perseverance sure 380 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:33,040 Speaker 1: to engage. I mean, who would mess with these guys. 381 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:36,040 Speaker 1: They've got a couple of muskets, like we've got cannons, 382 00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 1: you know, it's why would they challenge Great Britain. Yeah, 383 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:42,399 Speaker 1: they just massively. 384 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:49,720 Speaker 2: Underestimated the moxie of these of these New Englanders. This, 385 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:52,280 Speaker 2: as I mentioned, became known as the Powder Alarm, and 386 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:54,240 Speaker 2: it turned out to be a huge game changer. It 387 00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:57,880 Speaker 2: sparked the creation of the Massachusetts Provincial Congress, it sped 388 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 2: up the rise of the Minutemen militia, and even kicked 389 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 2: off secret intelligence networks keeping a watchful eye on the 390 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 2: Brits movements all around Boston. But General Gage was not done. 391 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:14,639 Speaker 2: After British spies located colonial munitions and conquered Massachusetts, he 392 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:18,200 Speaker 2: sent troops to destroy them on April eighteenth, seventeen seventy five. 393 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:22,160 Speaker 2: That little operation would of course, lead to the famous 394 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:26,320 Speaker 2: shot heard round the world. Officially lighting the fuse on 395 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:28,119 Speaker 2: the Revolutionary. 396 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:29,119 Speaker 1: War Lexington and Concord. 397 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:31,600 Speaker 2: Now that I have been there, and that is very 398 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:35,560 Speaker 2: very cool. That feels like a very visceral connection to 399 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:39,480 Speaker 2: history there. It's so interesting. How often in history does 400 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 2: authority escalate a situation in the name of trying to 401 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:48,399 Speaker 2: suppress it, right, Like they're trying to exert control, but 402 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:51,440 Speaker 2: they really only just manifest their worst fears. 403 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:57,200 Speaker 1: It's pretty common, right, Yeah, Like nothing is inevitable in history, right, 404 00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:03,280 Speaker 1: But it does feel like Americans when they were colonists, 405 00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:07,040 Speaker 1: they didn't like being told what to do or what 406 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:09,920 Speaker 1: not to do, where to assemble, where not to assemble, 407 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 1: Like they didn't want to be pushed around as colonists. 408 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:17,400 Speaker 1: And I'm getting the sense. And I'm not talking about 409 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:22,400 Speaker 1: violence here or you know, anything like Civil war revolution. 410 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:24,119 Speaker 1: I'm not talking about any of that in this moment. 411 00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:31,480 Speaker 1: But I am sensing from people that the people will 412 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 1: have the final say, and we were kind of seeing 413 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 1: it already that people, the collective, they're pushing back and 414 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:44,720 Speaker 1: even if it's a bad poll numbers, it's registering disapproval 415 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:49,680 Speaker 1: in a state special election, or by answering upholster's questions. 416 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:55,880 Speaker 1: Those pieces of honesty and fortitude and standing your ground, 417 00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:59,119 Speaker 1: they are showing that that there can be some pushback 418 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:01,160 Speaker 1: and it can have an impact. 419 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:05,879 Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, All right back to Dunmore, because of course 420 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 2: he wouldn't be left out of the colonial chaos. He 421 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:12,159 Speaker 2: got a mandate very similar to General Gauges up in 422 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:16,480 Speaker 2: Massachusetts to suppress the unrest down in Virginia, and being 423 00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:19,000 Speaker 2: a loyal redcoat as he was, he dove right in. 424 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:22,400 Speaker 2: In April seventeen seventy five, he grabbed the gunpowder from 425 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:25,879 Speaker 2: the public magazine in Williamsburg and sent it on a 426 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:28,840 Speaker 2: ship offshore, you know, just to keep it safe from 427 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:32,399 Speaker 2: those pesky colonists. Of course, Patriot forces quickly learned of 428 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,720 Speaker 2: this and mobilized and outrage because shocker people get a 429 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:38,920 Speaker 2: little grumpy when you move their explosives without asking. 430 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:41,080 Speaker 1: People don't like that, they. 431 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 2: Don't like it done more. Ever, the spin doctor claimed 432 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:47,440 Speaker 2: he was acting in the colonist's best interest. He said 433 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:51,159 Speaker 2: he was simply preventing a slave revolt. None of this 434 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:54,680 Speaker 2: went over very well, so news spread quickly and local 435 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:58,879 Speaker 2: militia began mobilizing. Faced with rising tensions and threats to 436 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:03,240 Speaker 2: the Governor's palace. As you mentioned Aaron Williamsburg, Dunmore withdrew 437 00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:07,960 Speaker 2: his family and by June took refuge aboard the HMS 438 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:12,399 Speaker 2: Foui in the York River. From there he attempted to 439 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:15,720 Speaker 2: govern Virginia from the relative safety of a warship, which 440 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:18,880 Speaker 2: is rarely a sign that things are going smoothly. 441 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:22,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, in exile, the leader in exile doesn't govern very well. 442 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:26,119 Speaker 2: We have an artistic rendering of Lord Dunmore's flight to 443 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 2: the warship Fouie, and there is there it is uh. 444 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:34,880 Speaker 1: Is that who's got his fist ups? That done more 445 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:35,640 Speaker 1: with his fist up. 446 00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:38,480 Speaker 2: I think he's like he's just saying like, ohoy, we're 447 00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:43,960 Speaker 2: coming aboard. I'm really impressed by this staircase that comes 448 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 2: down off the side of a battleship. Course. 449 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:49,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, so the French had a big navy at this time. 450 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:50,600 Speaker 1: Did they have stairs? 451 00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:56,520 Speaker 2: This is a good question. Yeah, it was a huge 452 00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 2: point of contention between the two navies, like we've got stas, 453 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:05,160 Speaker 2: we have what we call in elevator, Yeah, escalator exactly. 454 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:10,959 Speaker 2: It's so interesting that things artists choose to render Dunmore's 455 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:15,080 Speaker 2: flight to the Fauy why did this particular thing. I mean, 456 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 2: if you're Leonardo da Vinci painting the Last Supper, feels like, yeah, 457 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,560 Speaker 2: that's a cool thing you want to capture that. I 458 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:23,399 Speaker 2: don't know about this moment where he just happens to 459 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 2: be getting on a boat like, oh okay anyway. Dunmore 460 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 2: used the twenty four cannon HMS Fowey as his base 461 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,280 Speaker 2: for two to three months, though it was reported that 462 00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:36,600 Speaker 2: he moved from ship to ship in the Chesapeake Bay 463 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:41,440 Speaker 2: as he commanded small raids on Patriot affiliated towns and plantations. 464 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:46,639 Speaker 2: He and his loyalist forces eventually settled on Gwyn's Island, 465 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:51,360 Speaker 2: about thirty miles northeast of Williamsburg by November seventeen seventy five. However, 466 00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:55,440 Speaker 2: even a private island couldn't solve all his problems. Done 467 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:58,480 Speaker 2: More needed reinforcements, so he turned to the very people 468 00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 2: his opponents had been trying to control all along, and 469 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:11,080 Speaker 2: this drum roll please is Dunmore's snaffo with massive historical repercussions. 470 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:18,119 Speaker 2: Dunmore issued a royal proclamation offering freedom to any indentured 471 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 2: servants or enslaved people willing and able to fight for 472 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:27,440 Speaker 2: the King. Oh, the irony. The same guy who'd earlier 473 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:32,320 Speaker 2: moved the colony's gunpowder to prevent a supposed slave uprising 474 00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:36,639 Speaker 2: was now dangling liberty like it was candy. At Halloween, 475 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:42,400 Speaker 2: about three hundred former enslaved men joined what became known 476 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:47,719 Speaker 2: as Dunmore's Royal Ethiopian Regiment. This proclamation spread through newspapers 477 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:51,240 Speaker 2: across the colonies, and the regiment eventually swelled to around 478 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:54,800 Speaker 2: eight hundred men. It also inspired thousands more to consider 479 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:58,560 Speaker 2: seeking freedom by siding with the British, or just to 480 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:04,479 Speaker 2: escape amid the chaos. This is such a wild moment, 481 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:08,520 Speaker 2: and because it's so close to the just full on 482 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:13,880 Speaker 2: outbreak of war, the Revolutionary War, this particular moment doesn't 483 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:19,000 Speaker 2: get as much historical attention as I think it deserves. 484 00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:23,080 Speaker 1: It's really striking, it really is, and this will become 485 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:26,920 Speaker 1: when we get into the eighteen twenties and eighteen thirties 486 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 1: in the South, this is what they. 487 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 2: Fear the most, exactly, and by the way that fear, 488 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:37,320 Speaker 2: the fear of slave uprising goes way back, of course. 489 00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:40,760 Speaker 2: I mean, if you're going to enslave a population, there's 490 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:43,880 Speaker 2: part of you that knows this is horrible. This is 491 00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:47,760 Speaker 2: so horrible what we're doing. Karmas might be swinging back 492 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:48,840 Speaker 2: at us any minute. 493 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 1: Man, you are sitting on a powder keg of humanity, exactly. 494 00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:53,239 Speaker 1: It is. 495 00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:01,840 Speaker 2: So he's offering freedom, but merely as a military strategy, 496 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:06,720 Speaker 2: aiming to weaken the rebel economy and labor force. He's 497 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:10,800 Speaker 2: using liberty as a tactical weapon. It's very cynical, and 498 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:17,240 Speaker 2: yet there's something obviously noble in freeing slaves. Whatever his motives, 499 00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:20,120 Speaker 2: it marked a pivotal moment in the history of slavery 500 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 2: in America. It is remarkable how often major turning points 501 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:28,920 Speaker 2: emerged less from moral intention than from unintended consequences. 502 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:33,440 Speaker 1: Wasn't it. Washington didn't want to arm enslaved people, correct, 503 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:36,720 Speaker 1: He refused arm end slay, even when the British were 504 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:38,720 Speaker 1: doing it, and he had been some people were saying, 505 00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:40,920 Speaker 1: we need to do this. Yeah, he didn't want to 506 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:44,440 Speaker 1: do that because what happens once they defeat the British, 507 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:48,560 Speaker 1: they will turn on us, right, that's the probably the paranoia. 508 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:51,240 Speaker 2: I believe this was a turning point for the revolutionary 509 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:54,080 Speaker 2: forces as well. That's when they started to enlist former 510 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:57,920 Speaker 2: slaves or slaves into the ranks because they saw that 511 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:01,680 Speaker 2: it was that Dunmore was doing and they were like, 512 00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:03,680 Speaker 2: we need to do this too. Well, it turns out 513 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:09,040 Speaker 2: this decision of Dunmore's to invite the rebellion of slaves 514 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:14,760 Speaker 2: to his own benefit was the ultimate backfire. His proclamation, 515 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:19,800 Speaker 2: meant to bolster loyalist forces, did the exact opposite. It 516 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:25,400 Speaker 2: unexpectedly united Virginians and supercharged the patriot cause. Even folks 517 00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:28,280 Speaker 2: who were kind of like on the fence, undecided or 518 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:32,760 Speaker 2: even quietly rooting for the king. They were outraged. And 519 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:37,200 Speaker 2: they know the Virginian economy was so based entirely on 520 00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:42,000 Speaker 2: slavery that everyone was, regardless of their loyalty before this, 521 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:46,520 Speaker 2: was just pissed off at Lord Dunmore, and they threw 522 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 2: themselves into the rebellion moving forward, so losing enslaved laborers. 523 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:55,280 Speaker 2: It wasn't just an inconvenience, It threatened their social status, 524 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:59,960 Speaker 2: their whole economic system. One historian even noted no other document, 525 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:04,160 Speaker 2: not even Thomas Paine's Common Sense or the Declaration of Independence, 526 00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:09,360 Speaker 2: did more than done Moore's proclamation to convert white residents 527 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:13,440 Speaker 2: of Britain's most popular colony to the cause of independence. 528 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,320 Speaker 1: You and I love history, you know, we're just fascinated 529 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:23,160 Speaker 1: by it. And the deeper you get into American history, 530 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:27,800 Speaker 1: like you need to learn to embrace somehow. What united 531 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:32,440 Speaker 1: these guys to fight the British was the threat of 532 00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:38,240 Speaker 1: being attacked by former slaves, their slaves. And so it's 533 00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:40,320 Speaker 1: it's like there are some people that don't want to 534 00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:44,000 Speaker 1: teach certain parts of American history. But you know, I say, 535 00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:47,200 Speaker 1: it's like, you need to accept it all. I like 536 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:49,320 Speaker 1: to say, the good, bad, and the ugly. You got 537 00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:51,600 Speaker 1: to You've got to be able to take it all 538 00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:54,800 Speaker 1: in and hold it all in together, the good, the bad, 539 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:59,280 Speaker 1: and the ugly. You know, George Washington amazing. No one 540 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:03,280 Speaker 1: else ever likes. The man gave away power. The man 541 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:07,360 Speaker 1: had absolute power, served two terms as president and said, 542 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:10,760 Speaker 1: you know what, I'm going home. I'm going I'm gonna 543 00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:14,160 Speaker 1: go sand my floors, I'm gonna go grow him and 544 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:18,320 Speaker 1: I'm gonna you know whatever. But also when he was president, 545 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:22,560 Speaker 1: he had an enslaved woman named Ona Judge escape and 546 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:25,840 Speaker 1: he obstructed justice to try to get her back. He 547 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:28,840 Speaker 1: never got her back, but he tried to obstruct the 548 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:33,200 Speaker 1: Fugitive Slave Law that he signed into law that he signed. 549 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:35,720 Speaker 1: You know. So it's like we got a. 550 00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:36,520 Speaker 2: The good, bad, and the ugly. 551 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:38,960 Speaker 1: We gotta hold both. We got to hold both. Yeah. 552 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 2: Amen. Amen. We're in a very weird moment where where 553 00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:47,400 Speaker 2: a lot of forces are trying to kind of only 554 00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:50,880 Speaker 2: cling to the good and say that's our history, that's 555 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:53,760 Speaker 2: all of it, that's in it. But no, we contain multitudes. 556 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:56,080 Speaker 2: We're a mess and there's beauty. 557 00:33:56,440 --> 00:34:02,360 Speaker 1: It's it's a we contain multitudes. Alexis says, you are 558 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:05,640 Speaker 1: not You're not guilty of anything unless you deny it. 559 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:08,719 Speaker 1: All we can do is be the best people we 560 00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:10,799 Speaker 1: can today to each other. 561 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:12,960 Speaker 2: Yeah. And we need the most amount of data to 562 00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:16,680 Speaker 2: do that, right. We need the most honest accounting of 563 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:21,080 Speaker 2: the world and the history and science and whatever else. 564 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:23,840 Speaker 2: We need the most and best data to be the 565 00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:32,360 Speaker 2: best versions of ourselves. With this action of Dunmore's Virginian 566 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:36,839 Speaker 2: rebels reached a breaking point, and Washington even called him 567 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:40,920 Speaker 2: out for this treacherous behavior. In a letter written on 568 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:44,680 Speaker 2: December fifteenth, seventeen seventy five, to Lieutenant Colonel Joseph Reid, 569 00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:49,319 Speaker 2: Washington wrote, if Virginians are wise, that arch traitor to 570 00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:53,400 Speaker 2: the rights of humanity. Lord Dunmore should be instantly crushed. 571 00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:58,480 Speaker 2: Eh oh, you pissed off, George Washington. I don't think 572 00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:00,640 Speaker 2: this is going to go well for you. Moving forward? 573 00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:04,360 Speaker 2: Done more? All right? So now it's December of seventeen 574 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:08,520 Speaker 2: seventy five, Lord Dunmore launched one last major offensive. He 575 00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:12,520 Speaker 2: fled to Norfolk to rally his troops, including the Ethiopian regiment. 576 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:15,640 Speaker 2: Norfolk was a key economic and military hub, and the 577 00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:19,960 Speaker 2: main entry point, great Bridge, was quickly fortified with a 578 00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:24,880 Speaker 2: stockade called Fort Murray. During the Battle of great Bridge, however, 579 00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:29,399 Speaker 2: the Patriot militia easily overran the British forces. Only one 580 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:32,960 Speaker 2: Patriot was wounded, while the British suffered about one hundred casualties. 581 00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:37,040 Speaker 2: By seventeen seventy six, the revolution was in full swing 582 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:43,080 Speaker 2: and Dunmore's attempts at reinforcements had spectacularly failed, helping the 583 00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:46,239 Speaker 2: very people he was supposed to be fighting. No matter 584 00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:49,200 Speaker 2: how hard he tried, regaining control of Virginia was off 585 00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:52,359 Speaker 2: the table. He packed it up, left the colonies back 586 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:56,960 Speaker 2: to Great Britain, joined Parliament and threw himself into supporting 587 00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:59,680 Speaker 2: the Loyalist cause. For the rest of the war. But 588 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:03,200 Speaker 2: now now from across the pond, you would think leaving 589 00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:05,400 Speaker 2: the colonies and getting all the way back to England 590 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:07,720 Speaker 2: would be the end of Dunmore's drama. Well not quite. 591 00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:10,880 Speaker 2: In the seventeen nineties, scandal found him again, this time 592 00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:15,719 Speaker 2: through his daughter Augusta, who secretly married Prince Augustus. Frederick 593 00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:20,000 Speaker 2: was actually the King's son, so the King of England son, 594 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:24,160 Speaker 2: in defiance of the Royal Marriage Act of seventeen seventy two. 595 00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:27,160 Speaker 2: This marriage was declared void, but the couple stayed together 596 00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:30,040 Speaker 2: for years. Anyway, Even off the colonial stage, the dun 597 00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:33,440 Speaker 2: Moores just kept things messy. Dunmore himself died in eighteen 598 00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:35,680 Speaker 2: oh nine at the ripe old age of seventy nine, 599 00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:39,000 Speaker 2: leaving behind a legacy that is as chaotic as it 600 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:42,839 Speaker 2: is fascinating. He freed slaves long before Lincoln, but let's 601 00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:47,600 Speaker 2: be real, mostly for strategic reasons, and inadvertently sparked revolution 602 00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:50,920 Speaker 2: in Virginia. All in all, John Murray, fourth Earl of 603 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:53,840 Speaker 2: Dunmore was the kind of historical figure you'd love to 604 00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:57,840 Speaker 2: watch on reality TV. Dramatic scheming, and always one step 605 00:36:57,880 --> 00:36:59,480 Speaker 2: away from disaster. 606 00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:04,600 Speaker 1: As I heard also the next season of Traders. 607 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:08,759 Speaker 2: Yeah, or survivor or something final. Interesting note, many of 608 00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:12,240 Speaker 2: the black men and women who joined Dunmore's Ethiopian regiment 609 00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:17,160 Speaker 2: were later transferred north with the seventeen eighty three British 610 00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:21,560 Speaker 2: evacuation of New York. Fearing re enslavement, they escaped to 611 00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:26,560 Speaker 2: Nova Scotia and Sierra Leone, forming enduring communities whose descendants 612 00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:31,600 Speaker 2: remain today. That's our story. Can you wrap up today's 613 00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:39,520 Speaker 2: snafu in three words, Bob Crawford, don't mess. 614 00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:41,360 Speaker 1: Up? 615 00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:46,120 Speaker 2: I think that works. Yeah, I mean that could apply 616 00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:48,200 Speaker 2: to a lot of things, but yeah, it certally applies 617 00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:49,040 Speaker 2: to today. 618 00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:49,879 Speaker 1: Don't up. 619 00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:57,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, perfect. Well. I'm wondering any final thoughts on this 620 00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:00,279 Speaker 2: this story. You know, most people when we think of 621 00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:02,520 Speaker 2: the emancipation of slaves, we think of the Civil War. 622 00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:06,799 Speaker 2: I think a lot of historians actually point to this 623 00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:12,919 Speaker 2: moment as even if Dunmore's motives were were not sort 624 00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:15,880 Speaker 2: of like morally based, they pointed this moment as a 625 00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:19,960 Speaker 2: kind of turning point in the perception of the value 626 00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:24,200 Speaker 2: of freedom for the enslaved population, and the sort of 627 00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:28,640 Speaker 2: consideration of freedom for the enslaved population in the colonies, 628 00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:32,040 Speaker 2: and what became the United States, and that this was 629 00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:36,000 Speaker 2: in many ways a precursor to Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation. 630 00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:40,320 Speaker 1: The freedom was only for those enslaved in the states 631 00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:44,120 Speaker 1: that were in rebellion, yeah, or the Emancipation Proclamation. It 632 00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:49,480 Speaker 1: wasn't this amazing everybody's free? Yeah, Like, if you and 633 00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:53,600 Speaker 1: I were average Americans in that period eighteen twenty to 634 00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:58,120 Speaker 1: eighteen fifty, we couldn't really conceive of way or a 635 00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:02,000 Speaker 1: time that slavery would not exist. You talk about big tech, 636 00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:06,440 Speaker 1: big slavery, like that was an industry that benefited the 637 00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:10,000 Speaker 1: South and the north. If you lived in Boston, there 638 00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:13,560 Speaker 1: would be ma and you were at like an abolitionist meeting, 639 00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:18,200 Speaker 1: a mob may surround the building and throw rocks through 640 00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:24,080 Speaker 1: the building because the abolition was messing with the status quo. Yeah, 641 00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:27,719 Speaker 1: at the time. So I would be interested to go 642 00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:30,800 Speaker 1: back and look at this moment that we talked about 643 00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:34,560 Speaker 1: today and see what did the abolitionists think of this, 644 00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:38,879 Speaker 1: you know, twenty thirty forty years after it happened, and 645 00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:43,439 Speaker 1: how did it play into thinking about what freedom could 646 00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:45,719 Speaker 1: be obtained and how freedom could be obtained. 647 00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:51,439 Speaker 2: Absolutely, there's a very interesting governmental strategic consideration here, bad 648 00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:57,480 Speaker 2: leadership doesn't just fail at leadership, it can often mobilize 649 00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:01,960 Speaker 2: the opposition. Right, so, so done more, he didn't just 650 00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:06,920 Speaker 2: make these unpopular decisions, he actively radicalized his opponents. 651 00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:09,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, he manifested his downfall. 652 00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:13,680 Speaker 2: Right, he radicalized people who might have otherwise just been neutral. 653 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:16,759 Speaker 2: So like his dissolving of the House of Burgesses, the 654 00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:21,279 Speaker 2: seizure of gunpowder, his emancimation patient proclamation, they weren't just 655 00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:29,640 Speaker 2: tactical blunders. They were accelerants against his interests. The blowback 656 00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:33,880 Speaker 2: can just be so much more consequential than simply the 657 00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:35,640 Speaker 2: failure to advance your cause. 658 00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:39,080 Speaker 1: Absolutely, it happens in history time and again. 659 00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:42,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, they're just stepping on rakes. The rake, the handle 660 00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:44,440 Speaker 2: flies up and just breaks your nose. 661 00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:45,239 Speaker 1: That's right. 662 00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:49,120 Speaker 2: Come on, this was really fun, Bob Crawford, Thank you 663 00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:52,040 Speaker 2: so much for coming on board. Snapoo. I want to 664 00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:54,000 Speaker 2: know about your book, Bob, and I want to know 665 00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:56,759 Speaker 2: a couple of things. First of all, you have a 666 00:40:56,920 --> 00:41:00,000 Speaker 2: very broad interest in history, but what is it about 667 00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:04,200 Speaker 2: this particular subject that pulled you in? And and then 668 00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:06,360 Speaker 2: I want to know a little bit about your process 669 00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:08,960 Speaker 2: of how you brought this book to life. 670 00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:14,600 Speaker 1: Well, the process is being a touring musician and having 671 00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:19,920 Speaker 1: hours of downtime. And you know, traditionally musicians they use 672 00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:26,000 Speaker 1: those those lonely hours off the stage to self destruct, right, 673 00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:29,160 Speaker 1: to do things that destroy them. I think, I think 674 00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:31,560 Speaker 1: we're living in a different time. And everybody I know 675 00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:33,759 Speaker 1: they got projects going on, they got a lock on it. 676 00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:34,840 Speaker 1: But it did. 677 00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:38,120 Speaker 2: Offer me, Well, we got Wi Fi. Now we have Wi. 678 00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:41,120 Speaker 1: Fi right, and so we can read the Congressional Globe 679 00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:43,840 Speaker 1: from eighteen thirty six. I mean, we have the time 680 00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:45,960 Speaker 1: to do that and the ability, so we can do that. 681 00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:48,640 Speaker 1: I've always been fast, been fascinated with John Quincy Adams 682 00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:54,000 Speaker 1: as a president and really as a post presidency. And 683 00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:57,759 Speaker 1: you know, I've got a complicated family life. I did 684 00:41:57,760 --> 00:41:59,640 Speaker 1: work on the book a lot at home, but man, 685 00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:03,319 Speaker 1: be on the road. Really, it's just it's like you 686 00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:06,440 Speaker 1: can write books and be a bass player of all things. 687 00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:10,080 Speaker 2: So cool. What makes this book a special insight into 688 00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:11,840 Speaker 2: the story of John Quincy Adams. 689 00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:15,680 Speaker 1: So it is that tells the story of Adams between 690 00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:20,200 Speaker 1: eighteen twenty and eighteen forty eight. And this is he 691 00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:22,960 Speaker 1: was a failed one term president who went into Congress 692 00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:26,719 Speaker 1: and served in Congress for seventeen years after his presidency. 693 00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:29,480 Speaker 1: He's the only one, the only president who's done that. 694 00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:34,960 Speaker 1: And when he was president, he was the establishment right like, 695 00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:38,239 Speaker 1: so he he lost reelection to Andrew Jackson, who was 696 00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:43,280 Speaker 1: the populist. Think back to twenty sixteen, right, Hillary Clinton 697 00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:49,200 Speaker 1: on paper man first lady senator, Secretary of state, oh 698 00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:52,719 Speaker 1: Man on paper, Yeah, perfect president, she'd be great, but 699 00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:56,080 Speaker 1: the times changed when it was her turn, the times 700 00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:59,719 Speaker 1: changed and people were feeling something different, and so they 701 00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:04,120 Speaker 1: Trump the populist. We think of Trump as a populist 702 00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:07,759 Speaker 1: in which is he was. Adams was John Adams's son. 703 00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:12,080 Speaker 1: Washington appoints him to a diplomatic post. He's a senator 704 00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:17,480 Speaker 1: during Jeffers's administration. Madison appoints him to a diplomatic post. 705 00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:22,080 Speaker 1: He's the secretary of State under James Monroe. He gets 706 00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:28,520 Speaker 1: he negotiates Florida into the Union Oregon territory, and he 707 00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:31,719 Speaker 1: basically writes what we think of as the Monroe doctrine. 708 00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:34,319 Speaker 1: So you think, eighteen twenty four, this guy is going 709 00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:37,920 Speaker 1: to walk in. He was born and raised to be president. 710 00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:42,840 Speaker 1: Not the case. The founding generation we're leaving the stage 711 00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:47,399 Speaker 1: and young Americans they wanted something else. They wanted a 712 00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:49,920 Speaker 1: common man for the common man, and that's how they 713 00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:52,600 Speaker 1: thought of Andrew Jackson. So he has a failed one 714 00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:57,319 Speaker 1: term presidency and then he does something extraordinary. He goes 715 00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:02,000 Speaker 1: into Congress and in Congress he he's not an abolitionist, 716 00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:06,000 Speaker 1: but he begins to align with the abolitionists and he 717 00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:09,120 Speaker 1: becomes this anti slavery crusader. 718 00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:11,960 Speaker 2: Fascinating and is it out yet? 719 00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:13,320 Speaker 1: March tenth? 720 00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:15,799 Speaker 2: Oh, hold up the book for us. Do you have 721 00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:19,840 Speaker 2: a copy. Let's take a look at this thing. America's 722 00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:20,879 Speaker 2: founding Sun. 723 00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:25,680 Speaker 1: There he is. And this is what's really cool about it. 724 00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:32,600 Speaker 1: There's this guy, Garrett Morland and he does concert posters 725 00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:35,360 Speaker 1: for us. He's just a really great guy and a 726 00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:39,840 Speaker 1: great illustrator and he did illustrations for the book and 727 00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:44,040 Speaker 1: oh cool, just really oh those are gorgeous, really really great, 728 00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:45,760 Speaker 1: really really awesome. 729 00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:50,600 Speaker 2: Congratulations on the book, Congratulations on a just epic career 730 00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:55,480 Speaker 2: and music. I love the Avid Brothers and I love 731 00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:57,879 Speaker 2: all the music that you make and I can't wait 732 00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:01,280 Speaker 2: to dive into this book. It just sounds awesome. Some congratulations, 733 00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:07,200 Speaker 2: thank you. M Yeah. SNAFU is a production of iHeart Podcasts. 734 00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:11,160 Speaker 2: And Snaffo Media, a partnership between Film Nation Entertainment and 735 00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:15,160 Speaker 2: Pacific Electric Picture Company. Post production and creative support from 736 00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:19,040 Speaker 2: good Egg Audio. Our executive producers are me Ed Helms, 737 00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:23,319 Speaker 2: Mike Falbo, Glenn Basner, Andy Kim, and Dylan Fagan. This 738 00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:27,279 Speaker 2: episode was produced by Alyssa Martino and Tory Smith. Our 739 00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:31,680 Speaker 2: managing producer is Carl Nellis. Our video editor is Jared Smith. 740 00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:36,080 Speaker 2: Technical direction and engineering from Nick Dooley. Additional story editing 741 00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:39,800 Speaker 2: from Carl Nellis. Our creative executive is Brett Harris. Logo 742 00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:43,920 Speaker 2: and branding by Matt Gosson and the Collected Works. Legal 743 00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:48,640 Speaker 2: review from Dan Welsh, Meghan Halson and Caroline Johnson. Special 744 00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:52,440 Speaker 2: thanks to Isaac Dunham, Adam Horn, Lane Klein, and everyone 745 00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:56,920 Speaker 2: at iHeart Podcasts, but especially Will Pearson, Kerry Lieberman and 746 00:45:57,080 --> 00:45:59,839 Speaker 2: Nikki Atoor. While I have you, don't forget to pick 747 00:45:59,920 --> 00:46:03,640 Speaker 2: up copy of my book, Snaffoo, The Definitive Guide to 748 00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:08,000 Speaker 2: History's Greatest screw Ups. It's available now from any book retailer. 749 00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:12,760 Speaker 2: Just go to Snaffoo dashbook dot com. Thanks for listening 750 00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:14,279 Speaker 2: and see you next week.