1 00:00:15,316 --> 00:00:25,556 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Welcome back to Against the Rules, Everybody. Michael lewis here. 2 00:00:26,356 --> 00:00:28,796 Speaker 1: Last episode we heard from Billy Walters, one of the 3 00:00:28,836 --> 00:00:32,596 Speaker 1: great old school sports gambling sharps. He's someone who made 4 00:00:32,636 --> 00:00:36,356 Speaker 1: the poker tables and saloons of Vegas more interesting. Characters 5 00:00:36,356 --> 00:00:39,676 Speaker 1: like Billy are harder to find in today's Vegas. But 6 00:00:39,716 --> 00:00:42,876 Speaker 1: there's another type of figure who's still around, and that's 7 00:00:42,916 --> 00:00:45,476 Speaker 1: who we're going to meet today, the bookies. 8 00:00:49,196 --> 00:00:51,716 Speaker 2: I don't call us dinosaurs. I call his crocodiles, because 9 00:00:51,796 --> 00:00:54,316 Speaker 2: dinosaurs are just saying we're crocodile. We've been around for 10 00:00:54,316 --> 00:00:55,796 Speaker 2: eighty million years and we're still here. 11 00:00:57,316 --> 00:00:59,836 Speaker 1: Chris Andrews met with me and my producer Lydia Jean 12 00:00:59,996 --> 00:01:03,476 Speaker 1: Kott at the South Point Casino, where Chris runs the 13 00:01:03,476 --> 00:01:06,756 Speaker 1: sports book from a dingy little office beside the place 14 00:01:06,796 --> 00:01:10,596 Speaker 1: where all the sports gamblers gathered to make their Chris 15 00:01:10,676 --> 00:01:12,316 Speaker 1: has been in Vegas for a long time, and so 16 00:01:12,396 --> 00:01:16,276 Speaker 1: of his associates, Jimmy Vacaro and Vinie Maiolo. They came 17 00:01:16,316 --> 00:01:18,236 Speaker 1: of age at a time when if you wanted to 18 00:01:18,276 --> 00:01:21,716 Speaker 1: gamble or become a bookie, Vegas is where you went. 19 00:01:22,476 --> 00:01:26,236 Speaker 1: All roads led to it and all lines emanated from it. 20 00:01:27,116 --> 00:01:29,876 Speaker 1: Chris grew up in Pittsburgh, which was famous for generating 21 00:01:29,956 --> 00:01:30,756 Speaker 1: Vegas bookies. 22 00:01:31,116 --> 00:01:33,916 Speaker 2: I think the geography, the topography had a lot to 23 00:01:33,956 --> 00:01:35,916 Speaker 2: do with it. There's a lot of like all the 24 00:01:35,956 --> 00:01:38,156 Speaker 2: Three rivers, of course, but there's other ones. And it 25 00:01:38,276 --> 00:01:41,596 Speaker 2: created all these little valleys and this little valley, our 26 00:01:41,636 --> 00:01:44,436 Speaker 2: little valley. We've had a lot of Greeks. Greek, I'm Greek. 27 00:01:44,676 --> 00:01:47,756 Speaker 2: There's the next valley had, you know, Germans next, and 28 00:01:47,916 --> 00:01:50,796 Speaker 2: Irish and Italians, a lot of it, you know. And 29 00:01:50,876 --> 00:01:53,876 Speaker 2: in each of these little pockets was like its own 30 00:01:54,116 --> 00:01:55,356 Speaker 2: little community, you know. 31 00:01:55,356 --> 00:01:57,956 Speaker 1: Create isolated population where you could make your own rules. 32 00:01:58,396 --> 00:02:00,436 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and you just take care of the 33 00:02:00,476 --> 00:02:01,836 Speaker 2: right guys and you're okay. 34 00:02:02,716 --> 00:02:06,556 Speaker 1: Chris's colleague Jimmy Vacaro, also grew up near Pittsburgh. He 35 00:02:06,636 --> 00:02:08,836 Speaker 1: started off as a blackjack dealer and had a hand 36 00:02:08,836 --> 00:02:11,676 Speaker 1: and up wading sports books and a handful of Vegas casinos, 37 00:02:11,716 --> 00:02:15,596 Speaker 1: including the MGM and the Golden Nugget. Matt Damon played 38 00:02:15,596 --> 00:02:18,996 Speaker 1: his brother Sonny Vcaro in a movie called Air about 39 00:02:18,996 --> 00:02:22,556 Speaker 1: how Sonny got Michael Jordan to sign with Nike. True story, 40 00:02:23,356 --> 00:02:25,596 Speaker 1: Sonny's the one who got Jimmy started in gambling. 41 00:02:26,156 --> 00:02:29,156 Speaker 3: You'd have these little stand up places where they sold 42 00:02:29,196 --> 00:02:30,956 Speaker 3: the magazines and a candy bar, and if you went 43 00:02:30,956 --> 00:02:32,836 Speaker 3: in the back, you could bet the horses, you could 44 00:02:32,876 --> 00:02:35,316 Speaker 3: bet the games, whatever, and you could have a drink, 45 00:02:35,316 --> 00:02:37,276 Speaker 3: you could sit down whatever. I used to go to 46 00:02:37,316 --> 00:02:41,076 Speaker 3: a place called the Common News was in Braddock, Pennsylvania. 47 00:02:41,516 --> 00:02:45,516 Speaker 3: Remember the movie The Sting. Yeah, yeah, like the movie 48 00:02:45,596 --> 00:02:47,716 Speaker 3: this thing at that little place where the book mean, 49 00:02:47,876 --> 00:02:51,396 Speaker 3: that's exactly what the Common News looked like, huh exactly. 50 00:02:51,836 --> 00:02:55,036 Speaker 3: I was marveled. So anyway, so I used to go 51 00:02:55,116 --> 00:02:57,596 Speaker 3: with my brother because I wasn't even eighteen years Sonny 52 00:02:57,636 --> 00:03:00,276 Speaker 3: would go down, H'd bet fifteen hundred dollars whatever. Then 53 00:03:00,316 --> 00:03:03,796 Speaker 3: when I got to be old enough, Joe Nigera who 54 00:03:03,876 --> 00:03:06,556 Speaker 3: owned the Common News at the time, I remember I 55 00:03:06,596 --> 00:03:08,516 Speaker 3: went in there with my friend and I want to 56 00:03:08,556 --> 00:03:10,156 Speaker 3: make a bed on a baseball game then go to 57 00:03:10,196 --> 00:03:14,676 Speaker 3: the pirate game. So I went inside and uh, I 58 00:03:14,716 --> 00:03:16,516 Speaker 3: bet about three games. I bet him for all for 59 00:03:16,596 --> 00:03:18,396 Speaker 3: like pretty good, like one hundred dollars each or two 60 00:03:18,436 --> 00:03:20,796 Speaker 3: hundred US. It was like five hundred dollars, which was 61 00:03:20,836 --> 00:03:23,476 Speaker 3: a lot of money. We're talking about nineteen sixty five, 62 00:03:23,596 --> 00:03:28,716 Speaker 3: eighteen sixty six. And here's here's one of my great statements. 63 00:03:29,716 --> 00:03:32,356 Speaker 3: I said, Joe, I said, I'm gonna be able to 64 00:03:32,356 --> 00:03:36,036 Speaker 3: pay you like mandyr Tuesday. He said, Jimmy, these aren't 65 00:03:36,276 --> 00:03:40,156 Speaker 3: green stamps. In otherwords, I couldn't bet with no credit. 66 00:03:40,556 --> 00:03:41,396 Speaker 2: Get to bring cash. 67 00:03:41,476 --> 00:03:44,356 Speaker 3: And then the next time I came now, I was 68 00:03:44,396 --> 00:03:49,276 Speaker 3: at eighteen nineteen twenty something like that, and I was okay. 69 00:03:49,436 --> 00:03:51,316 Speaker 3: I had a two hundred dollars credit line at a 70 00:03:51,396 --> 00:03:54,196 Speaker 3: common news to me that was like a million dollars. 71 00:03:54,436 --> 00:03:57,436 Speaker 3: I finally made it. Joe Nagara thinks, I'm okay, and 72 00:03:57,476 --> 00:03:59,876 Speaker 3: then that just started everything. 73 00:04:00,956 --> 00:04:03,596 Speaker 4: First someone went to the racetrack. I thought. I thought 74 00:04:03,596 --> 00:04:06,156 Speaker 4: I was going to the zoom. 75 00:04:06,196 --> 00:04:08,996 Speaker 1: That's Vinnie Miolo, the third in our trio of That 76 00:04:09,156 --> 00:04:09,756 Speaker 1: Gets Bookies. 77 00:04:11,676 --> 00:04:13,236 Speaker 4: My uncle Tony says, hey, you want to go see 78 00:04:13,236 --> 00:04:14,836 Speaker 4: some animals, and I wanted to get out of the house. 79 00:04:14,836 --> 00:04:16,476 Speaker 4: I'm thinking we're going to go up to the Bronx, 80 00:04:16,516 --> 00:04:19,316 Speaker 4: you know, and go to the zoo. So we were 81 00:04:19,316 --> 00:04:22,116 Speaker 4: out there and I'm looking around. I said, to come, 82 00:04:22,196 --> 00:04:25,396 Speaker 4: the only animals here they're horses. He says, it's a 83 00:04:25,476 --> 00:04:31,436 Speaker 4: very special zoo. And so I learned very early on 84 00:04:31,636 --> 00:04:36,516 Speaker 4: that horse racing was ingrained in my family. And it 85 00:04:36,596 --> 00:04:39,996 Speaker 4: was ingrained because my uncle Tony and several other relatives 86 00:04:40,236 --> 00:04:45,036 Speaker 4: probably paid for several renovations on the backstretch at Belmont 87 00:04:45,076 --> 00:04:48,596 Speaker 4: and Aqueduct. And at the same time, I'm going to 88 00:04:49,756 --> 00:04:54,396 Speaker 4: Catholic school. The thing about Catholic school is that there's 89 00:04:54,596 --> 00:04:59,236 Speaker 4: quite a bit of fundraising Bingo Vegas Knights raffles. 90 00:04:59,476 --> 00:05:01,636 Speaker 1: How does the Catholic Church feel about gambling. Does it 91 00:05:01,676 --> 00:05:02,316 Speaker 1: have a position. 92 00:05:02,756 --> 00:05:04,436 Speaker 4: I think it's got a pretty solid position. I think 93 00:05:04,436 --> 00:05:08,396 Speaker 4: it supports it when you consider every fundraiser is gambling related. So, 94 00:05:08,876 --> 00:05:10,396 Speaker 4: you know, people say to me, Vinnie, you do this. 95 00:05:10,476 --> 00:05:12,516 Speaker 4: You must have been a really good math student. I said, well, 96 00:05:12,516 --> 00:05:16,036 Speaker 4: I was average in math, but I aced fundraising. So 97 00:05:17,236 --> 00:05:20,116 Speaker 4: you know, in growing up, you know, in between the 98 00:05:20,156 --> 00:05:22,956 Speaker 4: New York Post and the daily News, all the horse racing, 99 00:05:23,556 --> 00:05:27,476 Speaker 4: you know, the cards for that day, the odds were 100 00:05:27,516 --> 00:05:30,996 Speaker 4: always presented and talked about quite a bit. So it 101 00:05:31,156 --> 00:05:33,316 Speaker 4: just kind of true in my mind. I knew that, Wow, 102 00:05:33,356 --> 00:05:35,836 Speaker 4: this is this is this is intriguing too. It's intriguing, 103 00:05:35,876 --> 00:05:38,876 Speaker 4: you know. I was around card games you know, with 104 00:05:38,876 --> 00:05:42,676 Speaker 4: with relatives and friends. So it just was something that 105 00:05:44,756 --> 00:05:47,636 Speaker 4: really attracted me and I gravitated to and I had 106 00:05:47,676 --> 00:05:48,356 Speaker 4: a mind for it. 107 00:05:48,436 --> 00:05:50,396 Speaker 1: When you thought about getting in the gambling business when 108 00:05:50,396 --> 00:05:52,396 Speaker 1: you're fourteen, what did that mean? Like, are you going 109 00:05:52,476 --> 00:05:53,196 Speaker 1: to be a professional? 110 00:05:53,236 --> 00:05:53,476 Speaker 2: Better? 111 00:05:53,756 --> 00:05:56,276 Speaker 4: Are you going to I learned very early that it 112 00:05:56,396 --> 00:06:00,236 Speaker 4: was far better to be on the house side of 113 00:06:00,276 --> 00:06:03,716 Speaker 4: the counter. I mean, look, there's a reason that hotels 114 00:06:03,796 --> 00:06:07,276 Speaker 4: kept getting built, and you know, racetracks were still in 115 00:06:07,356 --> 00:06:09,916 Speaker 4: business and things like that. So I told about the 116 00:06:09,956 --> 00:06:11,356 Speaker 4: sixty nine World Series. 117 00:06:12,156 --> 00:06:13,076 Speaker 1: I go to. 118 00:06:13,556 --> 00:06:17,876 Speaker 4: School and in the playground and there's a big deal 119 00:06:17,916 --> 00:06:22,036 Speaker 4: about the Orioles being a prohibited favorite. Sister Thomas, the principal, 120 00:06:22,396 --> 00:06:25,156 Speaker 4: she you know, they're out the nuns who attended an 121 00:06:25,196 --> 00:06:29,636 Speaker 4: a vitiate outside of Baltimore. Well, they're you know, talking 122 00:06:29,676 --> 00:06:31,836 Speaker 4: about they're talking about how the Mets are going to 123 00:06:31,876 --> 00:06:35,836 Speaker 4: get killed. So I said, you know, sister, you know, 124 00:06:36,516 --> 00:06:38,876 Speaker 4: I think, you know, we could probably make a little 125 00:06:38,916 --> 00:06:41,236 Speaker 4: deal here. She says, what do you mean. I said, 126 00:06:41,236 --> 00:06:45,716 Speaker 4: I tell you what, if the Orioles win the World Series, 127 00:06:46,356 --> 00:06:50,676 Speaker 4: I will stay for a month month's worth of fridays 128 00:06:50,676 --> 00:06:54,636 Speaker 4: for detention and clean the blackboards, but you have to 129 00:06:54,636 --> 00:06:57,116 Speaker 4: clap out the erasers and wash them and everything, which 130 00:06:57,196 --> 00:06:59,516 Speaker 4: was like the worst thing because not only did you 131 00:06:59,516 --> 00:07:00,556 Speaker 4: have to do it, but then you had to go 132 00:07:00,596 --> 00:07:02,236 Speaker 4: home and listen to your mom who could never get 133 00:07:02,236 --> 00:07:07,036 Speaker 4: the chalk out of your clothes. So I volunteer. She said, well, 134 00:07:07,036 --> 00:07:11,796 Speaker 4: what happens, what if a miracle occurs in the Mets win? 135 00:07:11,956 --> 00:07:15,396 Speaker 4: I said, well, I get free lunch for with free 136 00:07:15,436 --> 00:07:20,676 Speaker 4: milk for for that month. She said, this sounds like 137 00:07:20,716 --> 00:07:22,796 Speaker 4: a gambling I said, it's not a dance, it's a deal. 138 00:07:22,796 --> 00:07:26,196 Speaker 4: I'm making a deal system. She says, okay, mister Miyuelo, 139 00:07:26,276 --> 00:07:28,556 Speaker 4: you're on. So of course you know we go game 140 00:07:28,596 --> 00:07:32,076 Speaker 4: one Orioles win game one four to one. I get 141 00:07:32,116 --> 00:07:33,996 Speaker 4: to school the next day. I'm in the playground getting 142 00:07:33,996 --> 00:07:38,156 Speaker 4: ready to go to class, and the principal she's out there, well, 143 00:07:38,196 --> 00:07:40,796 Speaker 4: mister Miyula, looks like it's going to be a long 144 00:07:41,196 --> 00:07:45,596 Speaker 4: fall for you, young man. She's just talking trash talking 145 00:07:45,636 --> 00:07:48,516 Speaker 4: smack to maps. So I said, and I did the 146 00:07:48,556 --> 00:07:49,996 Speaker 4: only thing I could. I said, would you like to 147 00:07:50,036 --> 00:07:54,116 Speaker 4: press it? She says, what language? Where do you learn 148 00:07:54,196 --> 00:07:59,156 Speaker 4: this vernacular? This is terrible sister, You're you're you're really coming. 149 00:07:59,156 --> 00:08:05,436 Speaker 4: You know you're pressing me here. Well, Michael, needless to say, 150 00:08:05,676 --> 00:08:07,796 Speaker 4: young Vinnie Mayulo drank a lot of milk and got 151 00:08:07,796 --> 00:08:10,716 Speaker 4: a lot of free lunch and in nineteen sixty nine, 152 00:08:10,876 --> 00:08:13,836 Speaker 4: but I still got detention for two months for gambling on. 153 00:08:13,756 --> 00:08:20,116 Speaker 1: Campus after the break. How these three future bookies got 154 00:08:20,156 --> 00:08:35,756 Speaker 1: their starts in Vegas and back at the South Point 155 00:08:35,756 --> 00:08:38,476 Speaker 1: Casino in Las Vegas hearing about the world. That was 156 00:08:39,396 --> 00:08:42,916 Speaker 1: after Vinniemiolo graduated with a degree in illicit gambling from 157 00:08:42,996 --> 00:08:45,916 Speaker 1: Catholic School. Vegas is, of course where he wanted to go. 158 00:08:46,676 --> 00:08:48,916 Speaker 1: Lucky for him, he had an uncle who played music 159 00:08:48,956 --> 00:08:49,476 Speaker 1: in Vegas. 160 00:08:50,116 --> 00:08:53,556 Speaker 4: So my uncle introduced me to Michael Gone, and I 161 00:08:53,636 --> 00:08:56,676 Speaker 4: went Michael Gone and his partner, Frank Tody. They had 162 00:08:56,796 --> 00:08:59,916 Speaker 4: a dealing school where you learned how to be a 163 00:08:59,916 --> 00:09:03,956 Speaker 4: casino dealer. Because books were very not a lot of 164 00:09:03,956 --> 00:09:05,436 Speaker 4: books at the time, you're a lot to learn. 165 00:09:06,156 --> 00:09:07,676 Speaker 1: How hard is it to be a casino dealer? 166 00:09:08,116 --> 00:09:10,156 Speaker 4: It depends on what you what you want to learn. 167 00:09:10,436 --> 00:09:12,956 Speaker 4: If you learned I learned dice because it's the hardest game. 168 00:09:13,036 --> 00:09:15,596 Speaker 4: So once you'll learn dice, you can learn all the games. 169 00:09:16,036 --> 00:09:21,436 Speaker 4: But you can be dealing blackjack in if you've got 170 00:09:21,436 --> 00:09:24,316 Speaker 4: a good mind and you know good hands, you can 171 00:09:24,356 --> 00:09:27,716 Speaker 4: be dealing it in less than two weeks. Now it's 172 00:09:27,716 --> 00:09:32,436 Speaker 4: easier because there's automatic shufflers on the roulette table. You 173 00:09:32,476 --> 00:09:33,156 Speaker 4: need to just have that, you. 174 00:09:33,116 --> 00:09:34,156 Speaker 1: Know, get a lower scale. 175 00:09:34,676 --> 00:09:38,836 Speaker 4: It's there's a There was a lot. Frankly, there was 176 00:09:38,836 --> 00:09:41,316 Speaker 4: a lot more art when I when I was doing it. 177 00:09:41,436 --> 00:09:44,636 Speaker 4: So I got hired. You hired me as a as 178 00:09:44,636 --> 00:09:49,596 Speaker 4: a as a dice dealer, and Michael Gone, I still 179 00:09:49,876 --> 00:09:52,556 Speaker 4: say to this day he had the first cross training 180 00:09:52,596 --> 00:09:57,196 Speaker 4: program in Las Vegas, and it didn't have manuals, It 181 00:09:57,236 --> 00:09:59,636 Speaker 4: did not have meetings, it didn't have a whole lot 182 00:09:59,676 --> 00:10:02,396 Speaker 4: of fanfare. It was this, make sure you're good at 183 00:10:02,396 --> 00:10:05,316 Speaker 4: what I hired you for, then go learn what you want. Well, 184 00:10:05,556 --> 00:10:07,556 Speaker 4: where was Vinnie hanging out on his brakes? You know, 185 00:10:07,596 --> 00:10:09,516 Speaker 4: you worked an hour on and you got a to minute. 186 00:10:10,316 --> 00:10:12,236 Speaker 4: I was in a book, hanging out with Jimmy. That's 187 00:10:12,236 --> 00:10:15,476 Speaker 4: where I met Jimmy. So about I'm dealing for about 188 00:10:15,836 --> 00:10:19,076 Speaker 4: three months and the pit boss gets a phone call 189 00:10:19,076 --> 00:10:22,796 Speaker 4: and it's Michael Gone. He says, send Vinnie up. So 190 00:10:22,916 --> 00:10:25,236 Speaker 4: I go upstairs and I'm thinking, oh man, this is 191 00:10:25,276 --> 00:10:26,076 Speaker 4: not Loo. 192 00:10:26,116 --> 00:10:28,836 Speaker 2: Could this be? I'm like this scamping. 193 00:10:28,956 --> 00:10:30,436 Speaker 4: I'm thinking, God, what did I screw up? 194 00:10:30,476 --> 00:10:30,836 Speaker 2: A pay up? 195 00:10:30,876 --> 00:10:33,556 Speaker 4: What am I doing wrong? So he calls me. He says, Minny, 196 00:10:33,556 --> 00:10:35,516 Speaker 4: how's your game? I said, well, sir, I think it's 197 00:10:35,636 --> 00:10:37,996 Speaker 4: pretty good. I'm working every day I learned something, and 198 00:10:38,116 --> 00:10:40,036 Speaker 4: every time I learned something, I go back to school 199 00:10:40,076 --> 00:10:42,756 Speaker 4: after work and work on it and you know, put 200 00:10:42,756 --> 00:10:45,476 Speaker 4: it to you know, keep trying to refine my game. 201 00:10:45,516 --> 00:10:47,156 Speaker 4: He says, well, good, because you're going to go to 202 00:10:47,196 --> 00:10:51,676 Speaker 4: the Barbary Coast. And the Barbary Coast opened in March 203 00:10:51,676 --> 00:10:55,116 Speaker 4: of nineteen seventy nine. The building is still there. It's 204 00:10:55,156 --> 00:10:58,276 Speaker 4: the Cromwell all right, from on the corner of Las 205 00:10:58,396 --> 00:11:03,316 Speaker 4: Vegas Boulevard in Flamingo. And I was there and I'm 206 00:11:03,316 --> 00:11:07,116 Speaker 4: working in the pit. But I'm also in the book 207 00:11:07,236 --> 00:11:11,436 Speaker 4: Every every Break, and it's where Christy too, So Chris, 208 00:11:11,476 --> 00:11:14,756 Speaker 4: Jimmy and I will or work together at the Barbary Coast. 209 00:11:15,556 --> 00:11:17,636 Speaker 1: So that's Vinny's story of how he found his place 210 00:11:17,636 --> 00:11:21,156 Speaker 1: in Vegas. For his part, Jimmy Vacaro came west from 211 00:11:21,156 --> 00:11:22,996 Speaker 1: Pittsburgh around nineteen sixty four. 212 00:11:23,436 --> 00:11:25,196 Speaker 3: I knew I had to create some money real quick. 213 00:11:25,196 --> 00:11:28,236 Speaker 3: I knew everybody started with my brother yea, so now 214 00:11:28,276 --> 00:11:30,316 Speaker 3: here I am. I'm in, And I said, I gotta 215 00:11:30,916 --> 00:11:33,356 Speaker 3: think of some way to make some money, you know whatever. 216 00:11:34,076 --> 00:11:36,916 Speaker 3: So to what you would consider a small time bookmaking 217 00:11:36,996 --> 00:11:39,036 Speaker 3: what they booked a two hundred game, three hundred game. 218 00:11:39,076 --> 00:11:41,116 Speaker 3: I called both of them back and I said, I'll 219 00:11:41,116 --> 00:11:42,836 Speaker 3: be your openers. In other words, I'll call you with 220 00:11:42,876 --> 00:11:45,396 Speaker 3: the with the with the bedding lines from the Churchill 221 00:11:45,476 --> 00:11:48,596 Speaker 3: Downs and the other place whatever. And I charged them 222 00:11:48,636 --> 00:11:50,556 Speaker 3: three hundred a week, and they all paid because they 223 00:11:50,556 --> 00:11:53,076 Speaker 3: wanted to know what the pointspreaders were in Las Vegas 224 00:11:53,076 --> 00:11:53,756 Speaker 3: on these games. 225 00:11:53,796 --> 00:11:54,116 Speaker 2: Whatever. 226 00:11:54,156 --> 00:11:56,556 Speaker 1: Where were these guys? You were sending the lines to Pittsburgh, 227 00:11:56,556 --> 00:11:58,596 Speaker 1: So you're sending the lines from Vegas back to Pittsburgh. 228 00:11:58,596 --> 00:11:59,676 Speaker 1: And they were just getting early lines. 229 00:11:59,716 --> 00:12:02,316 Speaker 3: They needed openers, right they What the hell was going on? 230 00:12:02,356 --> 00:12:04,436 Speaker 1: And who in Vegas was set was setting? 231 00:12:04,596 --> 00:12:07,156 Speaker 3: Churchill Downs was like the first place that was independent 232 00:12:07,196 --> 00:12:10,236 Speaker 3: that was no twenty one tables, just race and sports book. 233 00:12:10,516 --> 00:12:12,636 Speaker 3: That's what it was before you couldn't get on sports. 234 00:12:12,996 --> 00:12:14,556 Speaker 3: I knew that the Gaune family it's a guy that 235 00:12:14,636 --> 00:12:17,876 Speaker 3: owns this cassino. Now I knew that they were like 236 00:12:18,636 --> 00:12:22,196 Speaker 3: spoken highly of. I mean, everybody's the Gawne family. Jackie 237 00:12:22,196 --> 00:12:24,516 Speaker 3: Gone that this picture on the wall out here, it's 238 00:12:24,596 --> 00:12:27,676 Speaker 3: right on the wall. So I said, you know, what 239 00:12:27,756 --> 00:12:29,276 Speaker 3: do I got to lose if I just go down 240 00:12:29,316 --> 00:12:31,676 Speaker 3: there and say I want a job? And his first 241 00:12:31,756 --> 00:12:33,956 Speaker 3: cassino was a little place called the Royal in Cassino. 242 00:12:33,996 --> 00:12:37,916 Speaker 3: It was just six twenty one tables, barboot and roulette, will, 243 00:12:37,956 --> 00:12:41,836 Speaker 3: no sportsbook. I went to his office and I said 244 00:12:41,876 --> 00:12:45,916 Speaker 3: to his secretary's name was Anne Coffin. I said, can 245 00:12:45,956 --> 00:12:47,876 Speaker 3: I say, mister Gone places, who are you? I said, 246 00:12:47,916 --> 00:12:50,796 Speaker 3: Jimmy Vacaro. She says okay. She walked up and went 247 00:12:50,916 --> 00:12:53,716 Speaker 3: in the back where Michael's office was, and he was 248 00:12:53,716 --> 00:12:55,596 Speaker 3: there for about three minutes, and all of a sudden 249 00:12:56,156 --> 00:12:58,636 Speaker 3: he come out. Now this is hard to believe, it's 250 00:12:58,716 --> 00:12:59,316 Speaker 3: just the truth. 251 00:13:00,676 --> 00:13:01,916 Speaker 2: I says, who are you? I said? 252 00:13:01,956 --> 00:13:04,076 Speaker 3: Jimmy Vacery says, what do you want? I said, well, 253 00:13:04,556 --> 00:13:06,356 Speaker 3: I'd like to get a job. I said, but I 254 00:13:06,356 --> 00:13:07,636 Speaker 3: want to go to the dealer school too. 255 00:13:07,676 --> 00:13:09,076 Speaker 1: He said, what do you do? 256 00:13:09,236 --> 00:13:09,836 Speaker 2: Where do you deal? 257 00:13:09,876 --> 00:13:11,556 Speaker 3: I said, no, I said, I just got to town. 258 00:13:11,876 --> 00:13:13,476 Speaker 3: He said, you just got the town a couple of 259 00:13:13,516 --> 00:13:15,276 Speaker 3: days ago. I said yes, I said, and I want 260 00:13:15,276 --> 00:13:18,636 Speaker 3: to get a job in the casino. If I lived 261 00:13:18,636 --> 00:13:21,516 Speaker 3: there be a million. He went in his a little office. 262 00:13:21,516 --> 00:13:22,596 Speaker 2: He took me with him. 263 00:13:23,236 --> 00:13:24,996 Speaker 3: So he picked up the phone. He called, you know, 264 00:13:25,036 --> 00:13:27,676 Speaker 3: the dealer school downtown, and he said, I got a kid. 265 00:13:27,796 --> 00:13:29,916 Speaker 3: What's your name of guy said Jimmy Vacaro. He says, 266 00:13:29,916 --> 00:13:31,516 Speaker 3: I got a kid named Vacaro here. He wants to 267 00:13:31,516 --> 00:13:34,156 Speaker 3: go to dealer school. And he said, okay, you know. 268 00:13:34,276 --> 00:13:36,196 Speaker 3: I said, how much is it, mister Gone? He said 269 00:13:36,436 --> 00:13:38,796 Speaker 3: two hundred and fifty dollars. I said, mister Gone, I 270 00:13:38,836 --> 00:13:41,476 Speaker 3: don't have any money. He says, what I said, you 271 00:13:41,476 --> 00:13:43,396 Speaker 3: can't you don't have any money. I said, no, sir, 272 00:13:43,436 --> 00:13:46,116 Speaker 3: I don't have any money. He picked the phone back up. 273 00:13:46,156 --> 00:13:48,716 Speaker 3: He called the dealer school downtown. He said, this kid 274 00:13:48,796 --> 00:13:51,196 Speaker 3: named Jimmy, he's coming down. He doesn't have any money. 275 00:13:51,356 --> 00:13:54,356 Speaker 3: He'll pay you when he gets the money. So I 276 00:13:54,396 --> 00:13:57,156 Speaker 3: took about, you know, six weeks to pay him fifty 277 00:13:57,276 --> 00:14:01,316 Speaker 3: fifty with whatever it was. And then within seventeen days 278 00:14:01,356 --> 00:14:04,276 Speaker 3: he gave me a job dealing twenty one at this 279 00:14:04,316 --> 00:14:07,076 Speaker 3: little casino. A year and a half later, we opened 280 00:14:07,116 --> 00:14:09,836 Speaker 3: up the sports book at the rural end casino, which 281 00:14:09,876 --> 00:14:14,436 Speaker 3: is always allowed if you did it correctly. And he 282 00:14:14,516 --> 00:14:16,876 Speaker 3: threw me the keys. He says, go open the sports book, cup. 283 00:14:17,036 --> 00:14:18,996 Speaker 1: But when you started the first sports book, where you 284 00:14:19,116 --> 00:14:22,356 Speaker 1: this first sports book you create, what the kind of 285 00:14:22,396 --> 00:14:23,556 Speaker 1: bets are you willing to take. 286 00:14:23,716 --> 00:14:26,996 Speaker 3: Maybe maybe three or four thousand dollars on an NFL game. 287 00:14:27,076 --> 00:14:29,036 Speaker 3: I was smart enough to understand, don't think you're smarter 288 00:14:29,076 --> 00:14:31,956 Speaker 3: than these guys out there coming in now, and I brought. 289 00:14:32,356 --> 00:14:34,356 Speaker 3: I'll tell you what, I got a lot of credibility. 290 00:14:35,036 --> 00:14:38,236 Speaker 3: Big reason I got credibility is everybody knew the Gone 291 00:14:38,236 --> 00:14:40,796 Speaker 3: family and that was Michael's little casino, and I guess 292 00:14:40,836 --> 00:14:41,716 Speaker 3: their thought process. 293 00:14:41,756 --> 00:14:43,276 Speaker 2: So all the old wise guys was. 294 00:14:43,836 --> 00:14:46,876 Speaker 3: If Michael Gone hired the kid, he must know a 295 00:14:46,916 --> 00:14:48,676 Speaker 3: little bit right, And that's what happened. 296 00:14:48,956 --> 00:14:52,076 Speaker 1: I spoke with Jimmy's fellow bookie, Chris Andrews, in front 297 00:14:52,116 --> 00:14:54,916 Speaker 1: of all these busy and noisy monitors at South Point. 298 00:14:55,756 --> 00:14:57,996 Speaker 1: Chris got a start at the Stardust Casino back in 299 00:14:58,076 --> 00:15:01,556 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy nine. At the time, it was Vegas's biggest 300 00:15:01,556 --> 00:15:02,156 Speaker 1: sports book. 301 00:15:02,556 --> 00:15:03,836 Speaker 2: So I started the Stardust. 302 00:15:04,036 --> 00:15:05,396 Speaker 1: So give me a few give me a sense of 303 00:15:05,436 --> 00:15:07,236 Speaker 1: how that would have felt if I had walked into 304 00:15:07,236 --> 00:15:09,396 Speaker 1: that place, then how it would feel different. And they're 305 00:15:09,436 --> 00:15:10,516 Speaker 1: walking into here now. 306 00:15:12,196 --> 00:15:16,796 Speaker 2: Well, boy, in some ways, probably the characters. There's a 307 00:15:16,836 --> 00:15:20,316 Speaker 2: lot of similarities and character wise. The difference is in 308 00:15:20,556 --> 00:15:24,436 Speaker 2: like the the actual like betting menu and experience. Like 309 00:15:24,516 --> 00:15:28,556 Speaker 2: back then, we booked you know the game, the points spread, Yep, 310 00:15:29,516 --> 00:15:30,916 Speaker 2: that was about it. 311 00:15:30,556 --> 00:15:33,116 Speaker 1: Was anybody was there money lines too? No? 312 00:15:33,316 --> 00:15:36,436 Speaker 2: Almost never money lines? And then I remember I wanted 313 00:15:36,476 --> 00:15:39,956 Speaker 2: to build Dark's del Mar Sports book. And I remember 314 00:15:39,996 --> 00:15:43,876 Speaker 2: this is probably before I moved out here permanently. What's 315 00:15:43,916 --> 00:15:46,156 Speaker 2: that thirty five on the board? I remember it's next 316 00:15:46,156 --> 00:15:48,796 Speaker 2: to the Steelers. What's that thirty five? Well, that's the 317 00:15:48,916 --> 00:15:51,156 Speaker 2: over and under points score in the game. You can 318 00:15:51,196 --> 00:15:54,116 Speaker 2: bet on that. Are you serious? When did this? And he, 319 00:15:54,356 --> 00:15:56,316 Speaker 2: as far as I know, he's the one that came 320 00:15:56,396 --> 00:15:58,796 Speaker 2: up with that. You know, maybe somebody would tell you 321 00:15:58,796 --> 00:16:01,116 Speaker 2: something different, But this was like late seventies, so. 322 00:16:01,076 --> 00:16:04,196 Speaker 1: There are so between then and now. The one thing 323 00:16:04,236 --> 00:16:05,756 Speaker 1: that changes is in the number of things you can 324 00:16:05,796 --> 00:16:07,556 Speaker 1: bet on and it's exploded. 325 00:16:07,676 --> 00:16:09,556 Speaker 2: Oh, I mean, how do you do I didn't even 326 00:16:09,636 --> 00:16:12,796 Speaker 2: know what the exponential value would be. But monstrous. 327 00:16:12,836 --> 00:16:14,156 Speaker 1: But also how you can beat because it used to 328 00:16:14,156 --> 00:16:16,876 Speaker 1: be just point spread. It was just points spread, and 329 00:16:16,916 --> 00:16:19,116 Speaker 1: who invents the money line? 330 00:16:19,276 --> 00:16:21,596 Speaker 2: Well, actually the money line had been around before the 331 00:16:21,636 --> 00:16:24,036 Speaker 2: point spread. It kind of gotten like maybe forgotten a 332 00:16:24,076 --> 00:16:26,836 Speaker 2: little bit for a while. When with the advent of 333 00:16:27,876 --> 00:16:32,596 Speaker 2: the point spread that came back into play. Probably i'd say, like, 334 00:16:32,716 --> 00:16:35,476 Speaker 2: you know, real, you know, early eighties or mid eighties, 335 00:16:35,476 --> 00:16:38,756 Speaker 2: something like that. So then and at the time, so 336 00:16:38,876 --> 00:16:41,156 Speaker 2: teasers were a big you know, so you had point 337 00:16:41,196 --> 00:16:41,796 Speaker 2: spread with the. 338 00:16:41,756 --> 00:16:44,836 Speaker 1: Teasers right then the total started you know what explained 339 00:16:44,836 --> 00:16:46,596 Speaker 1: teaserback because we'd be nice to have your explanation. 340 00:16:46,636 --> 00:16:48,236 Speaker 2: Okay, teaser bit, you had six and a half or 341 00:16:48,276 --> 00:16:50,636 Speaker 2: seven points to your advantage, and there's some other teasers. 342 00:16:51,076 --> 00:16:53,116 Speaker 2: The six pointer is the most common, right, So a 343 00:16:53,196 --> 00:16:56,236 Speaker 2: six point teaser was even money. So if your team 344 00:16:56,356 --> 00:16:59,116 Speaker 2: was minus seven, you had them in a six point teaser. 345 00:16:59,156 --> 00:17:01,716 Speaker 2: Now they're minus one, right, essentially asking them to win 346 00:17:01,756 --> 00:17:04,636 Speaker 2: the game, you know. Or if there were plus seven, 347 00:17:04,676 --> 00:17:06,356 Speaker 2: you could tease it up to thirteen. You know, now 348 00:17:06,396 --> 00:17:08,516 Speaker 2: you're getting almost two four touchdowns. 349 00:17:08,556 --> 00:17:09,876 Speaker 1: You're just changing the odds and the thing. 350 00:17:10,396 --> 00:17:12,676 Speaker 2: Yeah, and then from there we just started figuring out, 351 00:17:12,756 --> 00:17:15,156 Speaker 2: you know, and you know it's my cousin heart Man 352 00:17:15,236 --> 00:17:19,516 Speaker 2: Terris who came up with the William the refrigerator, Perry 353 00:17:19,556 --> 00:17:23,316 Speaker 2: scoring a touchdown and then nineteen eighty five Super Bowl was. 354 00:17:23,276 --> 00:17:24,436 Speaker 1: That that was a novel. 355 00:17:24,916 --> 00:17:27,076 Speaker 2: That was he was the first one and it was 356 00:17:27,116 --> 00:17:29,716 Speaker 2: one of those and you know he'd tell you the story. 357 00:17:29,836 --> 00:17:32,916 Speaker 2: Where was he when he goes at Caesar's Palace? I 358 00:17:32,956 --> 00:17:36,156 Speaker 2: think he put it up, you know, twenty to one 359 00:17:36,276 --> 00:17:38,716 Speaker 2: or something like that. Anyway, they lost like a quarter 360 00:17:38,756 --> 00:17:45,756 Speaker 2: of a million dollars. Perry another Super Bowl rerecord, the 361 00:17:45,876 --> 00:17:47,876 Speaker 2: first refrigerator to score. 362 00:17:49,556 --> 00:17:52,356 Speaker 3: The biggest push in the first forty years of forty 363 00:17:52,436 --> 00:17:55,596 Speaker 3: nine years that I've been involved is when is when 364 00:17:55,636 --> 00:17:56,836 Speaker 3: Perry scored the touchdown. 365 00:17:57,276 --> 00:18:00,876 Speaker 1: That's Jimmy Vacaro again. Both he and Chris were present 366 00:18:00,956 --> 00:18:02,956 Speaker 1: at the birth of the prop bed in sports. 367 00:18:03,516 --> 00:18:05,796 Speaker 3: As soon as he scored the touchdown, we all licked 368 00:18:05,796 --> 00:18:08,156 Speaker 3: our wounds. Caesar's lost to most. I think they lost 369 00:18:08,196 --> 00:18:10,716 Speaker 3: one hundred and forty five. I did real good. I 370 00:18:10,756 --> 00:18:13,396 Speaker 3: only lost about fifty thousand, So I thought, I thought 371 00:18:13,396 --> 00:18:17,116 Speaker 3: I did really good. So what had happened right after that? 372 00:18:17,196 --> 00:18:19,796 Speaker 3: So the next day, this is about every book in town, 373 00:18:20,516 --> 00:18:23,476 Speaker 3: your phone line, the light of from every big city 374 00:18:23,596 --> 00:18:27,476 Speaker 3: in the country. They heard about Perry scoring a touchdown, 375 00:18:27,796 --> 00:18:32,156 Speaker 3: so that it just promoted like if we do more 376 00:18:32,156 --> 00:18:33,196 Speaker 3: of those type of things. 377 00:18:33,396 --> 00:18:35,116 Speaker 2: So that's what they just got a price of better. 378 00:18:35,556 --> 00:18:37,916 Speaker 2: I mean, they lost a fortune. I'm saying a quarter million, 379 00:18:37,916 --> 00:18:41,316 Speaker 2: probably more than that. And Terry Lanny was the president 380 00:18:41,476 --> 00:18:44,476 Speaker 2: of Caesar's this time, comes into the office called Terry Lanny. 381 00:18:44,796 --> 00:18:48,676 Speaker 2: Jesus calls Terry Lanney. Yes, sir, he figures, I'm getting fired. 382 00:18:49,676 --> 00:18:52,036 Speaker 2: That's the best thing you've ever done. We have had 383 00:18:52,116 --> 00:18:55,356 Speaker 2: so much publicity over that. That was whatever we lost, 384 00:18:55,356 --> 00:18:58,516 Speaker 2: it was well worth it. Well like shit, Okay. Now 385 00:18:59,396 --> 00:19:01,996 Speaker 2: he went from filling his boxes on pack and everything, 386 00:19:02,236 --> 00:19:05,916 Speaker 2: and you know, and then we started doing more props, 387 00:19:06,116 --> 00:19:08,116 Speaker 2: and the props grew. 388 00:19:08,676 --> 00:19:12,356 Speaker 1: So this is it's interesting, like it's it has become 389 00:19:12,916 --> 00:19:14,996 Speaker 1: it's become the center of the market, these prop bets. 390 00:19:15,276 --> 00:19:17,756 Speaker 2: We wrote more on the props than we did on 391 00:19:17,836 --> 00:19:18,716 Speaker 2: the on the game. 392 00:19:18,756 --> 00:19:22,556 Speaker 1: In the game, and but it it wasn't obvious to 393 00:19:23,556 --> 00:19:26,116 Speaker 1: the casinos that this was going to be that popular. 394 00:19:26,196 --> 00:19:27,836 Speaker 1: What do you think is going on? Why do people 395 00:19:27,916 --> 00:19:28,636 Speaker 1: like the prop bets? 396 00:19:29,836 --> 00:19:32,196 Speaker 2: Now? I can't even keep track of who these guys 397 00:19:32,236 --> 00:19:33,876 Speaker 2: are playing for from you know, So it's like you 398 00:19:33,956 --> 00:19:36,516 Speaker 2: attach yourself not to a player rather than more so 399 00:19:36,556 --> 00:19:38,796 Speaker 2: than a team. And I think that that's certainly a 400 00:19:38,916 --> 00:19:42,356 Speaker 2: part of it. So these things come from somewhere, right, you. 401 00:19:42,316 --> 00:19:44,596 Speaker 1: Know, and someone thinks to do it and then the 402 00:19:44,596 --> 00:19:48,796 Speaker 1: market responds to it. Yeah, if someone came up and 403 00:19:48,876 --> 00:19:50,836 Speaker 1: wanted a line on something that there was no line 404 00:19:50,836 --> 00:19:54,876 Speaker 1: on like that, like wind totals, season wind totals, would you. 405 00:19:54,876 --> 00:19:55,756 Speaker 2: All do it? 406 00:19:55,796 --> 00:19:58,676 Speaker 3: Depending how long, how far, how much you want to bet? Well, 407 00:19:58,676 --> 00:20:02,156 Speaker 3: here's the answer to that on everything the nineteen seventy 408 00:20:02,276 --> 00:20:06,236 Speaker 3: nine Super Bowl with the Steelers and the Cowboys, Big, 409 00:20:06,276 --> 00:20:09,316 Speaker 3: big game, monster game. But here's how many times you 410 00:20:09,316 --> 00:20:11,756 Speaker 3: could bet to Gaby Ready, you can bet the side, 411 00:20:11,836 --> 00:20:14,716 Speaker 3: you bet the total, or you bet the halftime. Three 412 00:20:15,076 --> 00:20:18,636 Speaker 3: different ways to bet on the Super Bowl. Now, everybody 413 00:20:18,676 --> 00:20:22,076 Speaker 3: averages at least two hundred and fifty props on each game. 414 00:20:22,156 --> 00:20:23,156 Speaker 2: On the Super Bowl. 415 00:20:22,956 --> 00:20:28,956 Speaker 1: Game, We're going to take a short break when we return, 416 00:20:29,156 --> 00:20:32,876 Speaker 1: I asked Chris Andrews and Jimmy Vacaro about limits, when 417 00:20:32,996 --> 00:20:38,596 Speaker 1: and how they might limit the bets of edge players. 418 00:20:44,116 --> 00:20:47,596 Speaker 1: I'm back in Vegas with bookies Chris Andrews and Jimmy Vacaro. 419 00:20:48,396 --> 00:20:51,636 Speaker 1: When was the first time, if ever, you rejected a 420 00:20:51,716 --> 00:20:53,316 Speaker 1: bet because of who was making the bet. 421 00:20:55,596 --> 00:20:59,076 Speaker 2: Well, I've rejected bets on limits, right. Guys will come 422 00:20:59,116 --> 00:21:01,316 Speaker 2: in and say I want this or that. But you know, 423 00:21:01,356 --> 00:21:03,436 Speaker 2: for I said, well that's more than we take, right, 424 00:21:03,956 --> 00:21:07,916 Speaker 2: But rejecting a bet that's on the board never really really. 425 00:21:08,396 --> 00:21:10,676 Speaker 2: I mean, like I said, for sure, I would cut 426 00:21:10,676 --> 00:21:13,196 Speaker 2: guys and guys, Oh, you shouldn't have limits, that's really. 427 00:21:13,236 --> 00:21:15,956 Speaker 2: So if Elon Musk comes in, he says, I blew 428 00:21:16,036 --> 00:21:18,796 Speaker 2: forty billion on the Twitter, I'm going to get it 429 00:21:18,836 --> 00:21:20,916 Speaker 2: back on the Dodger game tonight, and I'm supposed to 430 00:21:20,916 --> 00:21:21,356 Speaker 2: take that bet. 431 00:21:21,556 --> 00:21:21,636 Speaker 1: Right. 432 00:21:22,156 --> 00:21:23,756 Speaker 2: No, it's not gonna happen, right, So you have to 433 00:21:23,756 --> 00:21:24,516 Speaker 2: have some limits. 434 00:21:24,596 --> 00:21:28,236 Speaker 1: But you the in the old days that when you 435 00:21:28,316 --> 00:21:30,596 Speaker 1: first started out, if a guy came in and he 436 00:21:30,756 --> 00:21:34,676 Speaker 1: was known to be smart, yeah, did you just the 437 00:21:34,716 --> 00:21:37,156 Speaker 1: limits on him because he was smart? We're smart? We're 438 00:21:37,156 --> 00:21:39,716 Speaker 1: a smart bet is treated in any way worse. 439 00:21:40,196 --> 00:21:43,676 Speaker 2: Well, here's the rule I've always had when I post 440 00:21:43,756 --> 00:21:46,916 Speaker 2: like the limits, that's for anybody that walks in right now. 441 00:21:46,996 --> 00:21:50,196 Speaker 2: I can go higher than the limits on certain guys, 442 00:21:50,196 --> 00:21:53,116 Speaker 2: but I don't lower them because you're who you are. 443 00:21:53,356 --> 00:21:55,716 Speaker 2: I don't lower them because but I'll raise them if 444 00:21:55,756 --> 00:21:58,276 Speaker 2: I take the guy's a dead square right right? 445 00:21:58,676 --> 00:22:01,676 Speaker 1: So what is a typical limit online? And a prop better? 446 00:22:01,756 --> 00:22:02,876 Speaker 2: And it talks a couple thousand? 447 00:22:02,996 --> 00:22:05,316 Speaker 1: What about just a game? An NFL game? 448 00:22:05,396 --> 00:22:08,476 Speaker 2: NFL game, I think most guys take a hundred? 449 00:22:10,476 --> 00:22:12,836 Speaker 1: Which the is that? Where that be the biggest? 450 00:22:13,516 --> 00:22:16,396 Speaker 2: Oh I've had. I've taken a couple of million dollar bets. 451 00:22:16,516 --> 00:22:19,276 Speaker 1: You have, Yeah, on NFL games, the Super Bowls, a 452 00:22:19,276 --> 00:22:20,556 Speaker 1: super Bowl? Okay, gotcha? 453 00:22:21,716 --> 00:22:21,836 Speaker 2: Now? 454 00:22:21,836 --> 00:22:25,116 Speaker 3: The biggest bet I took was Carlikahon. He got two 455 00:22:25,156 --> 00:22:27,676 Speaker 3: point four million dollars on a money line bet. And 456 00:22:27,716 --> 00:22:31,876 Speaker 3: he's a panty ass. I had some big decisions. 457 00:22:31,596 --> 00:22:32,436 Speaker 2: But you took the bet. 458 00:22:32,556 --> 00:22:33,836 Speaker 1: Yeah, how did it work out? 459 00:22:34,316 --> 00:22:35,356 Speaker 2: He won? But we won. 460 00:22:35,516 --> 00:22:37,956 Speaker 3: I actually ended up needing his side because when I 461 00:22:38,076 --> 00:22:40,516 Speaker 3: changed the line. It was a year. When San Diego 462 00:22:40,636 --> 00:22:42,476 Speaker 3: is in the Super Bowl, It's only a four hour 463 00:22:42,556 --> 00:22:43,836 Speaker 3: drive from San diego to here. 464 00:22:44,636 --> 00:22:47,836 Speaker 1: How much of like football betting? For example? Are people 465 00:22:47,876 --> 00:22:49,116 Speaker 1: just betting on the teams they love? 466 00:22:49,476 --> 00:22:52,796 Speaker 3: Well, yeah, most people. Most people were betting their uniform. 467 00:22:52,836 --> 00:22:54,636 Speaker 3: They want to see their team win, and they got 468 00:22:54,676 --> 00:23:01,476 Speaker 3: bigger and bigger and bigger. We just accommodated everybody. 469 00:23:03,036 --> 00:23:07,316 Speaker 1: How's the legalization around the country changed your business? 470 00:23:07,436 --> 00:23:12,876 Speaker 2: It hasn't affected me so much here as fortunately I 471 00:23:12,916 --> 00:23:16,356 Speaker 2: work for an old school guy Michael gone right. But 472 00:23:16,396 --> 00:23:18,996 Speaker 2: I think it's affected the business in a in a 473 00:23:19,116 --> 00:23:21,916 Speaker 2: broader scale. I think a lot of these guys came 474 00:23:21,956 --> 00:23:25,996 Speaker 2: in from Europe. They were very corporate British corporate workstreams. 475 00:23:25,996 --> 00:23:27,956 Speaker 2: This is the legal, this is the marketing, this is 476 00:23:28,036 --> 00:23:30,916 Speaker 2: the HR, this is blah blah blah. I was head 477 00:23:30,956 --> 00:23:36,836 Speaker 2: of the bookmaking workstream. They call their bookmakers traders. We 478 00:23:36,876 --> 00:23:39,716 Speaker 2: all hate that word. There are traders, were bookmakers. What's 479 00:23:39,716 --> 00:23:43,236 Speaker 2: this trader stuff? But that's like infiltrated the whole language. 480 00:23:43,756 --> 00:23:47,876 Speaker 1: If I'm actually gambling, uh, and I go into William 481 00:23:47,956 --> 00:23:48,876 Speaker 1: Hill or one of. 482 00:23:48,836 --> 00:23:50,716 Speaker 2: These are you winning? Are you winning player? 483 00:23:50,756 --> 00:23:52,156 Speaker 1: I'm a winning player. I'm an edge plan. 484 00:23:52,196 --> 00:23:52,956 Speaker 2: You're going to be out? 485 00:23:53,276 --> 00:23:53,836 Speaker 1: Is that right? 486 00:23:53,916 --> 00:23:54,116 Speaker 4: Yeah? 487 00:23:54,436 --> 00:23:56,956 Speaker 2: They can't wait to throw out. They can't wait the 488 00:23:56,996 --> 00:24:00,676 Speaker 2: throw out now that the term sack them, sack them, 489 00:24:00,716 --> 00:24:04,076 Speaker 2: that's what they sack them. Said, why don't we just 490 00:24:04,156 --> 00:24:05,356 Speaker 2: let them at the limits. 491 00:24:05,036 --> 00:24:05,876 Speaker 1: And then move the market? 492 00:24:06,036 --> 00:24:06,276 Speaker 2: Yeah? 493 00:24:06,476 --> 00:24:09,036 Speaker 1: I said, wait, why don't they respond? What what's under? 494 00:24:09,716 --> 00:24:10,916 Speaker 1: Is it that they are uncomfortable? 495 00:24:11,636 --> 00:24:13,876 Speaker 2: That's the way they've always done it over there, and 496 00:24:13,996 --> 00:24:17,276 Speaker 2: they don't want to adapt to American wagering, so they 497 00:24:17,316 --> 00:24:19,516 Speaker 2: do things the way we do some things differently, So 498 00:24:19,876 --> 00:24:22,196 Speaker 2: we are not going to be throwing people out. We 499 00:24:22,236 --> 00:24:24,076 Speaker 2: want as much traffic as we can now. Of course, 500 00:24:24,116 --> 00:24:26,316 Speaker 2: we have to manage our money properly, right and that 501 00:24:26,396 --> 00:24:28,356 Speaker 2: sort of thing. So it's not just freewheeling. 502 00:24:28,436 --> 00:24:30,836 Speaker 1: Why is the European gambler put up with this? Like, 503 00:24:30,876 --> 00:24:33,836 Speaker 1: why didn't someone emerge to compete with this model? 504 00:24:34,996 --> 00:24:39,956 Speaker 2: Michael go to England and start interviewing their players, right, 505 00:24:40,116 --> 00:24:41,556 Speaker 2: because I know a few of them, you know, and 506 00:24:41,596 --> 00:24:44,116 Speaker 2: I don't know why they do, but they're always trying 507 00:24:44,156 --> 00:24:46,876 Speaker 2: to circumvent everything. Yeah, you know, always, you know you 508 00:24:46,996 --> 00:24:49,076 Speaker 2: might you know next week, you know, your your wife 509 00:24:49,116 --> 00:24:51,556 Speaker 2: or your cousin or your your brother in laws, and 510 00:24:51,716 --> 00:24:54,196 Speaker 2: you know they're using phony names and all that kind 511 00:24:54,196 --> 00:24:56,196 Speaker 2: of stuff, always trying to circumvent it. But as soon 512 00:24:56,196 --> 00:24:58,116 Speaker 2: as you win a couple of bets, they're thrown out too. 513 00:24:58,196 --> 00:24:59,636 Speaker 2: You know, you got to start all over again. 514 00:25:06,476 --> 00:25:08,076 Speaker 1: Give me an example of something that would have been 515 00:25:08,156 --> 00:25:10,556 Speaker 1: kind of common get behavior forty years ago. 516 00:25:10,596 --> 00:25:12,676 Speaker 2: And then well, parlays, like with the total if you 517 00:25:12,756 --> 00:25:16,356 Speaker 2: bet a big favorite, but a big favorite, like just 518 00:25:16,596 --> 00:25:19,796 Speaker 2: figure out the math. Don't don't buy stupid half points 519 00:25:19,876 --> 00:25:23,596 Speaker 2: when you don't need to, don't don't, you know, parlays, 520 00:25:23,676 --> 00:25:26,196 Speaker 2: you know, be careful like parlays and teasers and all. 521 00:25:26,156 --> 00:25:28,756 Speaker 1: That, and and but then also there's been this infusion 522 00:25:28,796 --> 00:25:31,756 Speaker 1: of bookmakers who whose business model is kind of different 523 00:25:31,756 --> 00:25:34,636 Speaker 1: from your business model. It's like, let's just take dumb beats. 524 00:25:34,476 --> 00:25:36,156 Speaker 2: The Brits, Oh yeah, oh those guys. 525 00:25:36,196 --> 00:25:38,636 Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's like fan duels and DraftKings, doesn't just. 526 00:25:38,596 --> 00:25:39,836 Speaker 2: Take just take the dummies. 527 00:25:39,876 --> 00:25:41,996 Speaker 1: That's all we want, right, And it's a diff it's 528 00:25:42,076 --> 00:25:45,916 Speaker 1: kind of a different business, yeah, right, is it more? 529 00:25:46,036 --> 00:25:49,796 Speaker 1: Is it a more profitable business? 530 00:25:49,876 --> 00:25:52,476 Speaker 2: So far? Yeah? But as a matter of fact, I 531 00:25:52,796 --> 00:25:55,676 Speaker 2: was just talking to somebody the other day, little different subject, 532 00:25:56,676 --> 00:25:59,276 Speaker 2: asking me essentially the same question, and I think a 533 00:25:59,316 --> 00:26:02,276 Speaker 2: lot of these places. They think this is just like 534 00:26:02,316 --> 00:26:04,356 Speaker 2: the golden goose. I think they're going to kill the 535 00:26:04,356 --> 00:26:06,196 Speaker 2: golden goose at some point, you know, And I think 536 00:26:06,236 --> 00:26:10,636 Speaker 2: there will be a shakeout in the industry. And what's it. 537 00:26:10,716 --> 00:26:13,116 Speaker 2: The nature abhors a vacuum. You know, it's going to 538 00:26:13,196 --> 00:26:15,396 Speaker 2: fill avoid and I think right now, I think we're 539 00:26:15,436 --> 00:26:16,996 Speaker 2: on the right side of it. Somebody told me, what 540 00:26:17,116 --> 00:26:20,396 Speaker 2: thing is your business model is not sustainable. If I've 541 00:26:20,396 --> 00:26:22,836 Speaker 2: been doing this for six decades, you know, if it's 542 00:26:22,876 --> 00:26:25,596 Speaker 2: not sustainable, once it's going to come home to roost. 543 00:26:25,876 --> 00:26:28,116 Speaker 1: It's gonna be it's gonna sound like a dumb question. Yeah, 544 00:26:28,196 --> 00:26:31,836 Speaker 1: you finish the year with the profit of X. Okay, 545 00:26:32,156 --> 00:26:34,876 Speaker 1: what percentage of those profits are coming from? You're on 546 00:26:34,956 --> 00:26:40,076 Speaker 1: the right side of the risk that you took risk 547 00:26:40,156 --> 00:26:42,276 Speaker 1: on games versus just being middleman. 548 00:26:44,476 --> 00:26:49,676 Speaker 2: Probably most of it comes from being the middleman most, 549 00:26:49,916 --> 00:26:52,836 Speaker 2: but there's you know, when you look at like your 550 00:26:53,116 --> 00:26:56,996 Speaker 2: your board, particularly in football, you want to be on 551 00:26:57,036 --> 00:26:59,756 Speaker 2: the right side of games. If you see the wise 552 00:26:59,796 --> 00:27:01,356 Speaker 2: guys on one side, you want to go in with 553 00:27:01,396 --> 00:27:04,396 Speaker 2: their their their side. If you can't you see the 554 00:27:04,436 --> 00:27:08,436 Speaker 2: public on one side. Yeah, you generally don't want to 555 00:27:08,436 --> 00:27:09,076 Speaker 2: be on that side. 556 00:27:09,356 --> 00:27:11,876 Speaker 1: You see that line up that way often. Oh yeah, 557 00:27:11,956 --> 00:27:14,716 Speaker 1: smart money one. Oh god, yeah that's really interesting. 558 00:27:14,796 --> 00:27:16,556 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, it. 559 00:27:16,476 --> 00:27:20,116 Speaker 1: Comes really clear. Oh it doesn't come to clear every game, No, okay, 560 00:27:21,756 --> 00:27:24,116 Speaker 1: there sometimes there's arguments within the smart money. 561 00:27:24,196 --> 00:27:26,476 Speaker 2: I always say it depends on the number, right, you 562 00:27:26,516 --> 00:27:30,076 Speaker 2: know if a game opened six then went to seven, Yeah, 563 00:27:30,076 --> 00:27:32,476 Speaker 2: the smart guy's laid six, and then the other smart 564 00:27:32,476 --> 00:27:34,876 Speaker 2: guys took seven. Right, So I'll say, who are the 565 00:27:34,876 --> 00:27:36,756 Speaker 2: wise guys on one? I don't know what's the number. 566 00:27:38,556 --> 00:27:40,716 Speaker 1: I love talking to these old bookies, and here's one 567 00:27:40,716 --> 00:27:43,636 Speaker 1: thing I took away from it. The old school bookie 568 00:27:43,716 --> 00:27:46,476 Speaker 1: isn't someone who does predictive analytics to set the odds. 569 00:27:47,236 --> 00:27:49,316 Speaker 1: He watches the gamblers as much as he watches the 570 00:27:49,356 --> 00:27:53,076 Speaker 1: games themselves. The smart gamblers just tell them where to 571 00:27:53,116 --> 00:27:56,796 Speaker 1: set the lines. It's a different way of thinking. Or, 572 00:27:56,796 --> 00:27:58,196 Speaker 1: as Vinnie Mayolo puts. 573 00:27:57,916 --> 00:27:59,916 Speaker 4: It, people call us old school. 574 00:28:00,036 --> 00:28:00,316 Speaker 2: Yeah. 575 00:28:00,996 --> 00:28:04,916 Speaker 4: Well I take that as a compliment because the fact 576 00:28:04,916 --> 00:28:09,236 Speaker 4: that here we are, you know, combined one hundred and fifty, 577 00:28:09,476 --> 00:28:12,836 Speaker 4: so we're in this business doing this for all this time. 578 00:28:12,876 --> 00:28:22,076 Speaker 4: If we didn't make adjustments, then we would be gone. 579 00:28:24,996 --> 00:28:27,356 Speaker 1: Where do you think it's going? Where you think sports 580 00:28:27,476 --> 00:28:28,756 Speaker 1: do you think it's a sports game? Is going to 581 00:28:28,836 --> 00:28:29,796 Speaker 1: look like in thirty. 582 00:28:29,556 --> 00:28:33,436 Speaker 3: Years, there'll be no human beings running it. 583 00:28:33,436 --> 00:28:34,556 Speaker 2: It'll be all computerized. 584 00:28:34,596 --> 00:28:37,956 Speaker 3: It's getting there now. I would say in five years, 585 00:28:38,556 --> 00:28:41,076 Speaker 3: what you'll get is like you'll go to a sports book, 586 00:28:41,076 --> 00:28:43,876 Speaker 3: you'll make your bet, but there might be three human 587 00:28:43,956 --> 00:28:47,596 Speaker 3: beings because you need someone like, you know whatever. But 588 00:28:47,676 --> 00:28:49,916 Speaker 3: the other thing is everything else will be you bet 589 00:28:49,916 --> 00:28:52,076 Speaker 3: it on a kiosk or have a phone account. 590 00:28:52,196 --> 00:28:53,556 Speaker 1: Right, it's all done by. 591 00:28:54,556 --> 00:28:57,076 Speaker 3: I think there's gonna be another big, big rush if 592 00:28:57,396 --> 00:28:59,556 Speaker 3: the world don't end by the next couple of years. 593 00:29:00,076 --> 00:29:03,756 Speaker 3: Is that okay? Kids seventeen, eighteen, nineteen, twenty years old 594 00:29:03,836 --> 00:29:06,236 Speaker 3: right now? So let's say we give him three to 595 00:29:06,316 --> 00:29:09,996 Speaker 3: five years where he's liable, noise to go make a 596 00:29:10,076 --> 00:29:12,876 Speaker 3: bet without any no parents behind them. So there's a 597 00:29:12,876 --> 00:29:16,476 Speaker 3: whole new wave coming. It's an all new ballgame, right. 598 00:29:16,676 --> 00:29:18,756 Speaker 3: I think it's gonna be crazy. 599 00:29:19,956 --> 00:29:24,236 Speaker 1: Thank you again, Jimmy Vaccaro, Chris Andrews, and Vinnie Mayolo 600 00:29:24,636 --> 00:29:27,396 Speaker 1: for talking with me. You can find these guys any 601 00:29:27,396 --> 00:29:30,876 Speaker 1: given day, still laying odds and booking Bets at South 602 00:29:30,876 --> 00:29:35,756 Speaker 1: Point in Vegas. Against the Rules is written and hosted 603 00:29:35,796 --> 00:29:38,996 Speaker 1: by me Michael Lewis and produced by Lydia gene Kott, 604 00:29:39,556 --> 00:29:44,236 Speaker 1: Catherine Gerardeau, and Ariella Markowitz. Our editor is Julia Barton. 605 00:29:45,276 --> 00:29:49,036 Speaker 1: Our engineer is Sarah Bruguer. Against the Rules is a 606 00:29:49,036 --> 00:29:53,556 Speaker 1: production of Pushkin Industries. To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen 607 00:29:53,596 --> 00:29:57,636 Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 608 00:29:57,716 --> 00:30:00,596 Speaker 1: to podcasts, and if you'd like to listen to ad 609 00:30:00,636 --> 00:30:04,436 Speaker 1: free and learn about other exclusive offerings, don't forget to 610 00:30:04,476 --> 00:30:08,516 Speaker 1: sign up for a Pushkin Plus subscription at pushkin, dot fm, 611 00:30:08,556 --> 00:30:11,476 Speaker 1: slash plus. We're on our Apple show page