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Speaker 1: Pushkin. I've spent years studying the science of happiness. And

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Speaker 1: on this show, I've talked to countless experts about the

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Speaker 1: things we can all do to feel better. But here's

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Speaker 1: something I don't talk about quite as often. The times

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Speaker 1: when I struggle to put that advice into practice myself.

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Speaker 1: And it turns out I'm not the only happiness expert

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Speaker 1: who has this problem. In today's episode, in our new

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Speaker 1: series of live podcast conversations, I'm joined by my good friend,

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Speaker 1: the psychologist Ethan Cross. Ethan studies how we manage our

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Speaker 1: thoughts and emotions, and why our own minds can sometimes

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Speaker 1: make that harder than it needs to be. Ethan and

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Speaker 1: I sat down together at the World Happiness Summit at

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Speaker 1: South by Southwest, and we got real about the things

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Speaker 1: that even happiness experts like us get wrong, and also

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Speaker 1: how you can learn from our mistakes. Our minds are

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Speaker 1: constantly telling us what to do to be happy. But

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Speaker 1: what if our minds are wrong? What if our minds

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Speaker 1: are lying to us, leading us away from what will

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Speaker 1: really make us happy? The good news is that understanding

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Speaker 1: the science of the mind can point us all back

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Speaker 1: in the right direction. You're listening to The Happiness Lab

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Speaker 1: with me, Dr. Laurie Santos. This time, coming to you

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Speaker 1: live from the World Happiness Summit at South by Southwest.

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Speaker 1: Welcome everyone to the Happiness Lab at South by Southwest

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Speaker 1: and the World Happiness Summit. I am super excited today

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Speaker 1: to have Ethan Cross, one of the world's leading experts

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Speaker 1: on emotion regulation, award-winning professor at the University of Michigan's

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Speaker 1: Department of Psychology and their Ross School of Business, two-time

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Speaker 1: national best-selling author for his books Shift and Chatter. Ethan

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Speaker 1: is an expert on how the conversations people have with

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Speaker 1: themselves impact their health, performance, decisions, and relationships. Everyone, welcome

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Speaker 1: Ethan Cross. ethan you and i have been colleagues and

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Speaker 1: friends for a long time so it is good that

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Speaker 1: you are joining me on this stage because today we're

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Speaker 1: going to get into something that's pretty personal today ethan

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Speaker 1: and i are going to reveal a bit of a

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Speaker 1: dark secret that we have when it comes to happiness

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Speaker 1: ethan do you want to be the first to come

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Speaker 1: clean about this dark secret not really.

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Speaker 2: I'd prefer that you go um You know, the dark

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Speaker 2: secret is I think it's so easy when people listen

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Speaker 2: to us speak or read about what we write to

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Speaker 2: think that we are this strange breed of human being

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Speaker 2: that never grapples with their own emotions. And that is

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Speaker 2: simply not true. We struggle just like everyone else here.

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Speaker 2: We struggle because we are humans. And that is a

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Speaker 2: defining feature of humanity. And so we thought when trying

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Speaker 2: to think about what we could share with you today is, um,

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Speaker 2: Let's normalize this struggle a little bit. Talk to you

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Speaker 2: about how we've grappled with this in our own lives

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Speaker 2: and give you some insight into our successes and maybe misfires.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And we're taking it to all of you right now.

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Speaker 1: But this is something that emotion experts, happiness experts talk

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Speaker 1: about privately a lot. I remember, Ethan, this one conversation

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Speaker 1: we had over the phone where you said, you know,

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Speaker 1: you and I live with a curse. The curse is

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Speaker 1: that we know what we're supposed to be doing. Like

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Speaker 1: we talk about it on our podcast, but we still

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Speaker 1: don't put it into practice because we are not 100%

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Speaker 1: great at this either because we're human. So that's what

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Speaker 1: we're going to be getting into today. And it makes

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Speaker 1: sense that we kind of suck at this, because it

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Speaker 1: turns out there are a few very well-known biases that

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Speaker 1: control why we don't put the stuff that we know

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Speaker 1: into practice. One of my favorite that I wanted to

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Speaker 1: start with, because it's the bias that I came up with,

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Speaker 1: my colleague Tamar Gendler back in 2014, is a bias

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Speaker 1: that's known as the G.I. Joe fallacy. Ethan, you are

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Speaker 1: an older midlife gentleman, like I'm an older midlife woman.

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Speaker 1: Do you remember G.I. Joe and what this is?

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Speaker 2: ETHAN ZUCKERMAN- Oh, yeah, G.I. Joe. Who here is a

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Speaker 2: fan of G.I.

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Speaker 1: Joe?

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Everyone listening at home, the audience is a little bit

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Speaker 1: midlife like me, so it makes sense.

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Speaker 2: So G.I. Joe, you know, super team of military operatives.

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Speaker 2: They make the world a better place, safe, all this

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Speaker 2: good stuff. And every single episode ends with this phrase,

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Speaker 2: knowing is.

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Speaker 1: Half the battle.

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Speaker 2: Knowing is half the battle.

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Speaker 1: In fact, it goes, now I know, and knowing is

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Speaker 1: half the battle.

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Speaker 2: G.I. Joe.

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Speaker 1: Anyway.

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Speaker 2: You know... I remember it was a couple of years ago,

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Speaker 2: and I was coming back from dinner with my wife

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Speaker 2: and another couple, really close friends, and the husband was

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Speaker 2: bemoaning a problem at work. And this was an interpersonal problem,

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Speaker 2: as I'm sure we've all experienced with some regularity. And

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Speaker 2: he was going on and on, and everyone in the

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Speaker 2: car was being empathic. And then his wife turns to

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Speaker 2: him and says, well, why don't you just focus on

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Speaker 2: the bright side, like reinterpret it positively. And then he

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Speaker 2: pauses and he goes, yeah, easier bleep and said than done.

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Speaker 2: And it just captures, I think, this truism that so

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Speaker 2: many of us have experienced, which is oftentimes we do

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Speaker 2: have the knowledge, but we don't actually act on it

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Speaker 2: for a variety of reasons.

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Speaker 1: And that is the G.I. Joe fallacy. We think knowing

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Speaker 1: is half the battle. Knowing is a little bit of

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Speaker 1: the battle, like maybe 10%. I don't know the exact percentage,

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Speaker 1: but it's probably not half. Because when you know something,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't mean that you act on it, right? And

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Speaker 1: the sad thing about the human mind, this is true

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Speaker 1: in so many different contexts. How many audience, kind of

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Speaker 1: give me a clap, have seen these optical illusions, something

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Speaker 1: like the Mueller-Lyer illusion, which is that illusion with the arrows,

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Speaker 1: where it's like the arrows go one way or another way.

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Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 1: Well, if you're watching at home, we'll throw this in

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Speaker 1: the show notes. But the idea is that it looks

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Speaker 1: like the two arrows are different lengths. But you measure them,

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Speaker 1: and they're the same length. And all of you that

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Speaker 1: clap have seen this, and you know it. But when

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Speaker 1: your eyes look at it, you're just going to see

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Speaker 1: it as different lengths, even though you know it doesn't

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Speaker 1: change how your eyes perceive things. And then there are

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Speaker 1: all kinds of economic tricks that, of course, play on this, right?

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Speaker 1: If you go and look at the South by Southwest

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Speaker 1: swag that we have here, you're going to see some

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Speaker 1: shirt that's like 1999 And you're going to feel like

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Speaker 1: that's a much better deal than if the shirt was

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Speaker 1: 20 bucks. But of course, 1999, I mean, we don't

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Speaker 1: even have the penny anymore. Look, it doesn't even matter, right?

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Speaker 1: They're going to upcharge you anyway. These are the things

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Speaker 1: that economists play with. And of course, there are these

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Speaker 1: health behaviors where we do this. We know we need

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Speaker 1: to sleep more. We need to eat better. We need

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Speaker 1: to exercise more. But that doesn't translate into doing it.

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Speaker 1: And that, of course, is the same with happiness.

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Speaker 2: So what would you say your knowing is half the

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Speaker 2: battle fail is when you think about your emotional life?

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, like so many different things. Give us

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Speaker 1: your top two or three. A big one for me,

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Speaker 1: this isn't exactly my emotional life, but definitely some of

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Speaker 1: the happiness stuff I talk about is that I preach

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Speaker 1: about the beauty of time affluence. We need some free

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Speaker 1: time and I'm usually the person who has the least

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Speaker 1: free time in any given situation. I know the complaining

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Speaker 1: about things and ruminating about things. I know that that's

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Speaker 1: going to make me feel terrible, yet I do it

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Speaker 1: all the time to the point that friends of mine

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Speaker 1: have to be like, didn't on your podcast you say

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Speaker 1: that doing this looked really bad? Like, it's not a

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Speaker 1: good thing to do, right?

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Speaker 2: And how do you like when your friends say that

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Speaker 2: to you?

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Speaker 1: Oh, it feels great.

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Speaker 2: It feels great.

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Speaker 1: My former producer, Ryan Dilley, who's amazing, my co-writer and

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Speaker 1: former producer, when we would get in these text threads

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Speaker 1: of complaining about this stuff, would sometimes say like, I

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Speaker 1: wonder if there's a podcast that you could listen to

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Speaker 1: that would help with that. So that's G.I. Joe fallacy,

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Speaker 1: this idea that we know we're supposed to do, but

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Speaker 1: we don't do it. Bias number one. Ethan, you have

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Speaker 1: a second bias that you like that I know you've

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Speaker 1: done some work on. Tell me about that one that

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Speaker 1: leads us astray when it comes to putting this stuff

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Speaker 1: into practice.

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Speaker 2: I think about this all the time in my own

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Speaker 2: life and on other people's, and it's called Solomon's paradox.

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Speaker 2: And to introduce it, I'd love to ask folks here

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Speaker 2: a couple of questions. So how many of you here

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Speaker 2: have find that you are often a lot better at

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Speaker 2: giving advice to other people than following that advice yourself.

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Speaker 2: So that's right. Everyone who's listening, everyone here in our

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Speaker 2: audience is a giant hypocrite. So turns out that this

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Speaker 2: is a universal feature of the human condition. We can

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Speaker 2: give great advice. We don't always follow it ourselves. We

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Speaker 2: call this Solomon's paradox, named after the Bible's King Solomon.

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Speaker 2: one of the wisest people in history when it came

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Speaker 2: to other people's problems. If you look into his own history,

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Speaker 2: he made a slew of terrible decisions. I'm often mindful

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Speaker 2: of this when I fail to follow my own advice

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Speaker 2: and when my kids call me out for this. So

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Speaker 2: this is a very common experience where I tell my

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Speaker 2: daughters to do things that are good for them. I

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Speaker 2: always preface it by saying, I have one goal here.

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Speaker 2: It is for you to be happy and healthy and successful.

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Speaker 2: I guess that's three. But regardless, in that sequence, they

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Speaker 2: still don't believe me. They then will turn around and say,

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Speaker 2: but you don't do that. And that really weakens my

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Speaker 2: rhetorical position. But then I explain to them Solomon's paradox.

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Speaker 2: And I say, well, that's fine. You still need to

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Speaker 2: follow this because people are just bad at following the

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Speaker 2: really good advice. So that's a really pervasive condition. And

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Speaker 2: I do think knowing about it is an important step.

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Speaker 2: but you then need other frameworks to be able to

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Speaker 2: overcome it.

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Speaker 1: I do love the idea of knowing about Solomon's paradox.

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Speaker 1: You can whip that out whenever your kids call you

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Speaker 1: out on something, because I don't have kids, but I

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Speaker 1: have it a lot with my students who take my class,

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Speaker 1: who will constantly see me in some situation that I'm

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Speaker 1: doing something that's against my values that I've shared in

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Speaker 1: the class. A big one is I'll be out in

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Speaker 1: the courtyard on my phone, and they'll say, my title

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Speaker 1: is head of college at the time, so Hawk Santos.

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Speaker 1: Hawk Santos, I thought you said that you should put

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Speaker 1: your phone away, so that you could have social connection

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Speaker 1: when you're in the courtyard. And I'm like, I was

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Speaker 1: checking for an email. But yes, getting called out is helpful.

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Speaker 1: But if I had known about Solomon's Paradox at that point,

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Speaker 1: I'd be like, well, you were just illustrating another thing

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Speaker 1: we'll talk about in the course, which is Solomon's Paradox,

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Speaker 1: which is very important to know about. Okay, I want

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Speaker 1: to jump to my next bias number three that I

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Speaker 1: think messes us up when it comes to doing the

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Speaker 1: stuff that we know we should be doing, which is

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Speaker 1: how sticky habits are. And this is something where we

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Speaker 1: can nerd out a little bit and like talk about

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Speaker 1: what happens with habits in the brain, because there's a

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Speaker 1: very funny feature of habits that make them really sticky.

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Speaker 1: So to think about this, let's go back to like

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Speaker 1: way old school habit, like a rat running a maze.

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Speaker 1: He gets a little cue and he knows that when

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Speaker 1: he hears that cue, He should look around in the maze,

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Speaker 1: like say a tea maze where it sort of splits

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Speaker 1: at the top. He can go left or right, which

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Speaker 1: he's going to pick. He goes left. And when he

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Speaker 1: goes left, he realizes, oh, there's a reward. Oh my gosh,

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Speaker 1: that's great. I get a little piece of cheese. What's happened?

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Speaker 1: He learns the cue, means he does this routine, and

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Speaker 1: he gets a little reward, right? When a rat's brain

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Speaker 1: is first learning this, the brain fires a lot when

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Speaker 1: he hears a cue. And then it fires a lot

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Speaker 1: when he does the routine. These are neurons in the

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Speaker 1: rat's basal ganglia, their reward areas. Fires a lot when

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Speaker 1: he does a routine, fires a lot when he gets

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Speaker 1: a reward. That's when he's first learning it. But if

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Speaker 1: you look at a well-learned habit, something interesting happens. Rat

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Speaker 1: hears a cue, brain fires a lot, then doesn't fire

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Speaker 1: at all while he's doing the routine and fires again

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Speaker 1: when he gets the reward. What does that mean? The

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Speaker 1: brain basically shuts off when you're using a well-learned habit.

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Speaker 1: It's literally not using any energy to fire because well-learned

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Speaker 1: habits are just easy. The brain doesn't have to put

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Speaker 1: in any energy anymore. When I see those rat data,

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Speaker 1: it's really powerful when I'm thinking for me, which is like,

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Speaker 1: Picking up the phone when I'm walking through the courtyard

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Speaker 1: is a well-learned habit. I'm not thinking. My brain isn't

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Speaker 1: making an active choice anymore. It's just kind of stuck

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Speaker 1: in there. And that, when I see those neural firing data,

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Speaker 1: just stays with me about like, oh, of course it's

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Speaker 1: going to be hard to do that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And I think it's so important also to understand

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Speaker 2: that that is a virtue of the human condition and

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Speaker 2: the way our brains work. We like to minimize any

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Speaker 2: expenditure of effort as much as possible. In other words,

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Speaker 2: we are all lazy people. That is how we have

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Speaker 2: evolved to conserve resources. And this is just one of

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Speaker 2: those instances where that conservation, if it's around the wrong

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Speaker 2: kind of behavior, can get us into trouble. The really

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Speaker 2: good news, of course, is our big, beautiful brains also

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Speaker 2: developed opportunities to course correct. You just need to know

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Speaker 2: how to harness them. And that's what is so beautiful

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Speaker 2: about this podcast is you share those tools with folks.

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Speaker 1: And so we're going to share how we can fight

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Speaker 1: these biases, how we can do a little bit better,

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Speaker 1: and also how Ethan and I do it in our

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Speaker 1: own personal life. Does that sound like an exciting thing

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Speaker 1: to hear? Well, you are going to hear that South

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Speaker 1: by Southwest Happiness Lab live at World Happiness Summit as

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Speaker 1: soon as the Happiness Lab gets back from the break.

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Speaker 1: Happiness Lab is back.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Ethan, we were just talking about the biases that

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Speaker 1: lead us astray when you and I, experts in this stuff,

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Speaker 1: put this stuff into practice. What are some of your

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Speaker 1: favorite solutions for moving the needle?

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Speaker 2: Well, I have a ton. But when it's a really

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Speaker 2: big issue that I know I'm struggling with, I actually

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Speaker 2: use this framework that has been researched out the wazoo.

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Speaker 2: It's called WHOOP. The technical term is mental contrasting with

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Speaker 2: implementation intentions. Whoop's just a little bit easier, kind of

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Speaker 2: rolls off the tongue. The way this works is, whoop's

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Speaker 2: an acronym. So what's the W stand for? It's your wish.

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Speaker 2: What's the goal? For me, an emotion regulation goal that

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Speaker 2: I do often struggle with is when I see my

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Speaker 2: daughters fight with each other in what I would describe

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Speaker 2: as ugly ways, it triggers something. Only childhood. want the

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Speaker 2: family to all be happy and loving like we all

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Speaker 2: do with our families. And it just kind of hits

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Speaker 2: a chord. So then we get to the first O.

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Speaker 2: What's that? That's the outcome. What is life going to

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Speaker 2: look like if I'm successful in achieving that goal? And

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Speaker 2: the reason for thinking about that outcome is you really

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Speaker 2: want to kind of energize the person behind the goal,

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Speaker 2: motivate them to pursue it. But you don't stop there.

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Speaker 2: Then you get to the second O. That's the obstacle.

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Speaker 2: Now that we have the goal in mind and we're

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Speaker 2: really motivated to pursue it, Now let's think about, well,

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Speaker 2: what are the personal obstacles that get in the way

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Speaker 2: of me being successful? So for me, it's this kind

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Speaker 2: of blinding tunnel vision. And I think about the fact

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Speaker 2: that we've talked about this so many times. This is

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Speaker 2: not the way we behave in this family. You could

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Speaker 2: see the tone I'm already taking as I describe this

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Speaker 2: to you. It's not very productive. So now I know

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Speaker 2: the obstacle. I know the behavior to watch out for.

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Speaker 2: Then I get to the P, which is the plan.

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Speaker 2: But it's not any kind of plan. It's what we

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Speaker 2: call an if-then plan. And what it does is kind

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Speaker 2: of magical in my mind because it links a particular response.

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Speaker 2: So if I see my daughters fighting and I have

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Speaker 2: this reaction to intervene in a confrontational way, then, and

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Speaker 2: then I will plug in one or two or three

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Speaker 2: of my most effective tools for keeping my emotions at bay,

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Speaker 2: and coming back at the situation more productively. That framework

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Speaker 2: is generalizable. And what that means is you can use

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Speaker 2: it for any kind of goal that you have. This

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Speaker 2: is something that has been researched not only with five-year-old

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Speaker 2: kids at school to help them achieve their academic goals,

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Speaker 2: but adults across the lifespan. It also happens to be very,

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Speaker 2: very similar to the framework that an organization called the

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Speaker 2: Navy SEALs use before every one of their operations. So

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Speaker 2: he's talking to a former Navy SEAL, a Navy SEAL

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Speaker 2: instructor about the psychology involved and how do you get

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Speaker 2: people ready to do these really emotionally trying things. And

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Speaker 2: before even talking to him about this WHOOP framework, he

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Speaker 2: just lays it out to me. He goes, Ethan, this

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Speaker 2: is how it works. So you bring the team in

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Speaker 2: and you sit in a room and then Socratic style

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Speaker 2: where anyone can be called, you start off. What's our objective?

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Speaker 2: In other words, what's the wish? What does success look like?

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Speaker 2: What's the outcomes? All right, now let's think about what

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Speaker 2: are all of the different ways that this can go sideways.

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Speaker 2: In other words, what are the obstacles? And for every

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Speaker 2: one of those obstacles, they develop a plan. If this happens,

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Speaker 2: then I do this. If this happens, then I do that.

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Speaker 2: That is a framework that automates emotion regulation. So you

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Speaker 2: don't find yourself in a situation that's important to you.

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Speaker 2: And now all of a sudden you need to start, oh,

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Speaker 2: what should I do? You know exactly what to do.

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Speaker 2: So I will use that in my own life. You

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Speaker 2: can't do it all the time, obviously. But for the

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Speaker 2: big things, I find that it can be really, really helpful.

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Speaker 1: And I love the WHOOP framework for two reasons, right?

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Speaker 1: One is what we often get wrong, I think, when

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Speaker 1: we want to achieve some goal is that we're really

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Speaker 1: easily able to think about the wish. And we're often

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Speaker 1: really easily able to think about the outcome, like, oh,

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Speaker 1: my gosh, I want to not scream at my kids

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Speaker 1: in this situation. Oh, they'll love me more and we'll

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Speaker 1: have less anger and aggression over the table. But we

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Speaker 1: often stop there. And this is a strategy that I

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Speaker 1: see often for some kind of goal setting a lot

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Speaker 1: on social media. This is very akin to things like manifesting,

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Speaker 1: where you think of the thing you want. Oh my God,

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Speaker 1: I want harmony in my home. I'm just going to

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Speaker 1: manifest it by thinking about the positive outcome. And the

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Speaker 1: problems that work by folks like Gabriel Oettingen and others

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Speaker 1: have found that when you stop at the wish and

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Speaker 1: the outcome, you do something not great for your brain,

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Speaker 1: which is that you Let your brain rehearse how great

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Speaker 1: that reward feels. And a very weird thing about our

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Speaker 1: brains is that when we imagine rewards really well, really vividly,

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Speaker 1: there's part of our mind that kind of thinks we

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Speaker 1: got that reward already. There's some lovely work by Kerry

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Speaker 1: Morwedge and his colleagues where he had people either slowly

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Speaker 1: imagine putting coins into like, you know, like coin thing,

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Speaker 1: or slowly imagine eating M & Ms over time, right?

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Speaker 1: You're just imagining, you're not really doing it. But then

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Speaker 1: at the end of this imagining period in the study,

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Speaker 1: they come into the room and there's a big actual

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Speaker 1: pile of M & Ms. And the question is, how

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Speaker 1: many do you eat? And what Kerry finds is that

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Speaker 1: when you imagine slowly eating M & Ms and your

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Speaker 1: brain thinks you've already been rewarded by all those M & Ms,

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Speaker 1: the last thing you want to do is eat more

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Speaker 1: M & Ms. So we can get confused if we

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Speaker 1: just stick with the wish and the outcome. Second thing

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Speaker 1: I love about the WHOOP practice is the final part

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Speaker 1: that you mentioned, the if-then plan. What those Navy SEALs

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Speaker 1: are doing by practicing all the things that could go

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Speaker 1: sideways is they're harnessing in some sense the imagined version

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Speaker 1: of that habit loop. And they rehearse that in their

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Speaker 1: brain such that what they're doing is they're changing the

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Speaker 1: activation energy for doing that routine over time. They make

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Speaker 1: their brain do it more easily over time.

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Speaker 2: That's right. And this is one of the ways you

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Speaker 2: can make self-control or emotion regulation or behavior change automatic.

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Speaker 2: which is, of course, what did we say before? We

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Speaker 2: like to do things that are easy, that we don't

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Speaker 2: have to spend much time thinking about. Turns out when

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Speaker 2: you're flooded with emotion, it's a lot harder to sort

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Speaker 2: through your Rolodex of the people know what a Rolodex

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Speaker 2: is here. They're old like us, Ethan. It's a safe space, man.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes I'm with younger groups and the Rolodex comment does

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Speaker 2: not go over too well. So when you're flooded with emotion,

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Speaker 2: it can be hard to methodically find that tool that

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Speaker 2: you actually have at your disposal, that you do know

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Speaker 2: about to bring it back to what we were talking

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Speaker 2: about earlier. And this is a way of building in

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Speaker 2: a little psychological space to make you more effective. So

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Speaker 2: I'd encourage everyone to try out a whoop. I'm going

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Speaker 2: to try out this Eminem technique when I get home.

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Speaker 2: I know I struggle with refrigerated mini chocolate peanut butter

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Speaker 2: cups after dinner.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes. Ethan, you and I are having this

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Speaker 1: conversation right before Easter and my danger zone is the

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Speaker 1: Cadbury Mooney egg. I have a bag of them literally

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Speaker 1: in my hotel room right now. But if you imagine

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Speaker 1: eating them, you don't want them anymore. Lots of good

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Speaker 1: regulation strategies you all are getting in this live happiness

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Speaker 1: lab show, let me tell you. Next regulation strategy we

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Speaker 1: want to talk about is the power of other people.

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Speaker 1: And other people can be an amazing asset or a

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Speaker 1: huge liability when it comes to achieving our happiness goals. Ethan,

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Speaker 1: how do you navigate this space?

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Speaker 2: With great care. Yeah, so I mean, other people, you know,

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Speaker 2: they can be an amazing asset or a tremendous liability

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Speaker 2: when it comes to our emotional lives. And when I

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Speaker 2: think back 20 years ago, when I was first starting

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Speaker 2: out in this business, I would have, I think, a

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Speaker 2: very ordinary experience where someone would call me And they

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Speaker 2: would just want to talk about something that happened in

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Speaker 2: their lives, you know, sometimes positive, but often negative. And

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't really know what to say to them. I

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Speaker 2: would know to be supportive, like, oh, I'm so sorry

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Speaker 2: that happened. Really? Tell me more. And then I would

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Speaker 2: just kind of repeat that loop over and over.

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Speaker 1: I'm really sorry. I mean, that thing that happened to you,

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry about that.

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Speaker 2: Isn't that terrible? And it turns out that that does

430
00:21:20,056 --> 00:21:22,776
Speaker 2: provide a lot of value because when we're doing that

431
00:21:22,796 --> 00:21:25,986
Speaker 2: at communicates empathy. If you take it a little bit further,

432
00:21:26,756 --> 00:21:29,886
Speaker 2: maybe you're normalizing this. Oh, yeah, I've been through this too.

433
00:21:30,606 --> 00:21:33,466
Speaker 2: But I never really knew how to steer the conversation

434
00:21:34,326 --> 00:21:38,406
Speaker 2: to help that person. And on the flip side, I

435
00:21:38,466 --> 00:21:43,016
Speaker 2: wasn't really that deliberate about thinking about who is it

436
00:21:43,156 --> 00:21:46,916
Speaker 2: that I should go to for support when I'm dealing

437
00:21:46,936 --> 00:21:49,016
Speaker 2: with different kinds of problems. I've got like five or

438
00:21:49,016 --> 00:21:51,056
Speaker 2: 10 people in my life who care a lot about me.

439
00:21:51,096 --> 00:21:53,666
Speaker 2: They'll answer the phone whenever I call. I was never

440
00:21:53,726 --> 00:21:58,016
Speaker 2: strategic about activating those people. Turns out, and this I

441
00:21:58,056 --> 00:22:01,736
Speaker 2: think is just a real success story of science, that

442
00:22:02,616 --> 00:22:06,296
Speaker 2: science provides us with a roadmap for figuring out who

443
00:22:06,356 --> 00:22:09,486
Speaker 2: are the folks that might push you in the wrong

444
00:22:09,546 --> 00:22:13,366
Speaker 2: emotional direction, even when they really care about you, and

445
00:22:13,446 --> 00:22:16,066
Speaker 2: who are the folks who can actually help you. And

446
00:22:16,086 --> 00:22:18,436
Speaker 2: it turns out there are two core steps. You want

447
00:22:18,456 --> 00:22:20,936
Speaker 2: to talk to people who are skilled at doing two things.

448
00:22:21,036 --> 00:22:25,986
Speaker 2: Step one, is empathically connect, listen, give the person the

449
00:22:26,046 --> 00:22:29,846
Speaker 2: opportunity to share what they're experiencing. It's really important to

450
00:22:29,886 --> 00:22:33,546
Speaker 2: have those social connections. But then step two, talk to

451
00:22:33,606 --> 00:22:37,506
Speaker 2: someone who can help you reframe what you're going through.

452
00:22:38,646 --> 00:22:41,926
Speaker 2: We talked about this a little bit earlier. Other people

453
00:22:42,006 --> 00:22:45,966
Speaker 2: are really effective at giving great advice to others, right?

454
00:22:46,006 --> 00:22:48,346
Speaker 2: So they're in an ideal position to help us think

455
00:22:48,386 --> 00:22:52,106
Speaker 2: differently about circumstances. for me, that's a powerful roadmap I

456
00:22:52,226 --> 00:22:55,406
Speaker 2: use to find the right people in my life to

457
00:22:55,466 --> 00:22:58,456
Speaker 2: help lead me to the desired emotion consequences.

458
00:22:58,816 --> 00:23:00,716
Speaker 1: And you have a word for this because another thing

459
00:23:00,756 --> 00:23:02,976
Speaker 1: we know that can help us remember how to do

460
00:23:03,016 --> 00:23:05,496
Speaker 1: stuff is just to have a word for this type

461
00:23:05,516 --> 00:23:07,496
Speaker 1: of thing. What's your word for these people.

462
00:23:07,336 --> 00:23:09,686
Speaker 2: Who do that? These are my chatter advisors.

463
00:23:10,486 --> 00:23:13,186
Speaker 1: Chatter advisors. And you're very deliberate about picking these folks.

464
00:23:13,726 --> 00:23:18,386
Speaker 2: I am super deliberate. I have a wonderful chatter advisory board.

465
00:23:19,146 --> 00:23:21,986
Speaker 2: I have two boards, actually, one for personal issues, one

466
00:23:22,026 --> 00:23:26,926
Speaker 2: for professional. They are not populated by clinical psychology PhDs

467
00:23:26,966 --> 00:23:30,916
Speaker 2: and psychiatrists. Those are not qualifications that exclude you from

468
00:23:30,956 --> 00:23:34,536
Speaker 2: being on my board, to be clear. But they are

469
00:23:34,636 --> 00:23:40,316
Speaker 2: people who understand this art of being a great emotional

470
00:23:40,416 --> 00:23:44,456
Speaker 2: or chatter advisor. And they are one of the most

471
00:23:44,516 --> 00:23:49,006
Speaker 2: invaluable regulatory resources that I possess in I will get

472
00:23:49,226 --> 00:23:53,996
Speaker 2: dealt curveballs in life just as all of us do here. 60%

473
00:23:53,996 --> 00:23:56,336
Speaker 2: of those, I'll use tools that I can use on

474
00:23:56,376 --> 00:23:59,376
Speaker 2: my own to stumble my way through it. But for

475
00:23:59,396 --> 00:24:04,896
Speaker 2: the other 40%, I activate the board. And they increase

476
00:24:04,956 --> 00:24:06,496
Speaker 2: the success rate exponentially.

477
00:24:07,596 --> 00:24:09,016
Speaker 1: But you pointed out that there's a good way to

478
00:24:09,056 --> 00:24:10,596
Speaker 1: be a chatter advisor and a bad way to be

479
00:24:10,636 --> 00:24:12,976
Speaker 1: a chatter advisor. And so we might want to see

480
00:24:13,076 --> 00:24:14,886
Speaker 1: how this works and what we can do a little

481
00:24:14,906 --> 00:24:16,926
Speaker 1: bit better. And I think for that, we have a demo.

482
00:24:17,766 --> 00:24:19,886
Speaker 2: Yeah, why don't we demo it right now for folks

483
00:24:19,946 --> 00:24:20,366
Speaker 2: on stage?

484
00:24:20,586 --> 00:24:21,296
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's do it.

485
00:24:21,346 --> 00:24:24,676
Speaker 2: Okay, so Lori, you're going to call me and ask

486
00:24:24,696 --> 00:24:28,716
Speaker 2: to talk to me about something that's bugging you. Terrible.

487
00:24:28,836 --> 00:24:29,596
Speaker 2: Let's try that again.

488
00:24:29,616 --> 00:24:33,156
Speaker 1: Sorry, they're just hearing this. The people at home can't

489
00:24:33,176 --> 00:24:35,176
Speaker 1: even see that we made a little phone gesture. They're like,

490
00:24:35,236 --> 00:24:36,616
Speaker 1: what is happening on stage?

491
00:24:36,656 --> 00:24:38,336
Speaker 2: Your team can do like a sound check.

492
00:24:38,356 --> 00:24:41,256
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true. Rebecca, producer, put in like a cool sound.

493
00:24:41,276 --> 00:24:43,096
Speaker 2: Please do not play that part.

494
00:24:43,216 --> 00:24:43,396
Speaker 1: Okay.

495
00:24:45,016 --> 00:24:46,776
Speaker 2: Hey, Lori, what's up? Ethan.

496
00:24:48,146 --> 00:24:49,386
Speaker 1: I'm having such a bad day, dude.

497
00:24:49,526 --> 00:24:50,026
Speaker 2: What's going on?

498
00:24:50,526 --> 00:24:53,976
Speaker 1: I just got this comment on that podcast where people

499
00:24:54,036 --> 00:24:56,176
Speaker 1: said that my voice was stupid and they really didn't

500
00:24:56,196 --> 00:24:58,256
Speaker 1: like the show. And I know I'm not supposed to

501
00:24:58,276 --> 00:25:00,196
Speaker 1: read the comments, but it's making me feel really bad

502
00:25:00,216 --> 00:25:00,756
Speaker 1: about myself.

503
00:25:01,216 --> 00:25:04,196
Speaker 2: Oh God, that's the worst. I mean, I can just

504
00:25:04,236 --> 00:25:08,066
Speaker 2: tell you every time I read comments, there might be

505
00:25:08,066 --> 00:25:13,266
Speaker 2: 98 positives. If there are two negatives, I'm like sprawled

506
00:25:13,346 --> 00:25:15,526
Speaker 2: out on the couch with a cold compress on my head.

507
00:25:15,666 --> 00:25:16,946
Speaker 2: It's miserable, you know?

508
00:25:17,176 --> 00:25:19,446
Speaker 1: The comments suck, Ethan. They were so mean. They were

509
00:25:19,466 --> 00:25:19,796
Speaker 1: so mean.

510
00:25:20,056 --> 00:25:20,796
Speaker 2: Were there any good ones?

511
00:25:21,606 --> 00:25:23,846
Speaker 1: Well, there was one where the people said they really

512
00:25:23,886 --> 00:25:25,486
Speaker 1: loved the show and it changed their life. But that

513
00:25:25,506 --> 00:25:29,286
Speaker 1: was just, that was one. Yeah. But there was that

514
00:25:29,326 --> 00:25:31,006
Speaker 1: mean one where they said my voice was stupid.

515
00:25:31,466 --> 00:25:35,046
Speaker 2: Do you ever actually stop to think about what you've

516
00:25:35,086 --> 00:25:38,366
Speaker 2: been able to accomplish in terms of changing people's lives

517
00:25:38,426 --> 00:25:39,006
Speaker 2: with your science?

518
00:25:39,496 --> 00:25:42,236
Speaker 1: Okay, that's true. I feel so much better now. Thank you, Ethan.

519
00:25:42,596 --> 00:25:45,456
Speaker 1: All right, Ethan, dissect what you just did in that conversation.

520
00:25:45,476 --> 00:25:51,646
Speaker 2: So in a very, very compressed way, we started with listening, validating.

521
00:25:51,846 --> 00:25:54,766
Speaker 2: That's really hard. It happens to me as well. So

522
00:25:54,806 --> 00:25:59,106
Speaker 2: we create that sense of safety, psychological safety and connection.

523
00:25:59,586 --> 00:26:03,196
Speaker 2: Lori now knows that she's being heard and empathized with.

524
00:26:03,936 --> 00:26:07,506
Speaker 2: And then we're broadening her perspective a little bit. So

525
00:26:07,526 --> 00:26:09,946
Speaker 2: when you get really emotional, you tend to zoom in

526
00:26:10,046 --> 00:26:14,526
Speaker 2: on that one comment out of 999 comments. And when

527
00:26:14,546 --> 00:26:16,636
Speaker 2: you zoom in on a bad one, it can feel terrible.

528
00:26:17,376 --> 00:26:19,936
Speaker 2: But where a chatter advisor can often help is by

529
00:26:20,016 --> 00:26:23,196
Speaker 2: zooming you out. And so, you know, Lori, how many

530
00:26:23,236 --> 00:26:26,176
Speaker 2: other scientists have been able to have the impact that

531
00:26:26,236 --> 00:26:30,156
Speaker 2: you've had in terms of translating science? Now we're shifting

532
00:26:30,196 --> 00:26:34,996
Speaker 2: our perspective. And so that's the general formula. It's listen, empathize, connect.

533
00:26:35,486 --> 00:26:38,806
Speaker 2: and then work with the person to reframe. Now, there's

534
00:26:38,846 --> 00:26:41,466
Speaker 2: an art to doing this, and it doesn't always follow

535
00:26:41,506 --> 00:26:44,476
Speaker 2: the same time course. I wish I could tell all

536
00:26:44,536 --> 00:26:49,256
Speaker 2: of you, you should empathize and connect for two minutes

537
00:26:49,336 --> 00:26:53,356
Speaker 2: and 36 seconds, and then shift into reframing mode. Does

538
00:26:53,396 --> 00:26:56,676
Speaker 2: not work that way. The bigger the emotion, which is

539
00:26:56,736 --> 00:26:59,786
Speaker 2: often dictated in part by the nature of the situation

540
00:27:00,226 --> 00:27:02,726
Speaker 2: and the person, the more time you often have to

541
00:27:02,786 --> 00:27:06,776
Speaker 2: spend just listening and connecting, before that person feels ready

542
00:27:07,376 --> 00:27:10,256
Speaker 2: to have their perspective be broadened. But if you have

543
00:27:10,296 --> 00:27:13,856
Speaker 2: this framework, you've got a roadmap for steering the conversation.

544
00:27:14,276 --> 00:27:19,256
Speaker 2: And if you're not sure when to shift from listening, normalizing,

545
00:27:19,376 --> 00:27:23,516
Speaker 2: empathizing to reframing, you can always ask. And so with

546
00:27:23,556 --> 00:27:26,456
Speaker 2: my wife, when she comes to me to talk about something, hey,

547
00:27:26,476 --> 00:27:30,576
Speaker 2: can I talk to you? Of course, what's going on? Listen, listen, listen. Hey,

548
00:27:30,926 --> 00:27:34,666
Speaker 2: I have a thought. Can I share? And sometimes it's, please,

549
00:27:34,706 --> 00:27:37,266
Speaker 2: that's why I'm here. Tell me what you think. Other

550
00:27:37,286 --> 00:27:39,706
Speaker 2: times it's, no, I'm not done. Let me read the.

551
00:27:39,566 --> 00:27:40,986
Speaker 1: Comment to you before you say that.

552
00:27:41,066 --> 00:27:43,446
Speaker 2: It was really mean. That's right. And so you want

553
00:27:43,466 --> 00:27:48,786
Speaker 2: to have that flexibility. It really, really works. So take

554
00:27:48,826 --> 00:27:51,806
Speaker 2: that with you for when people come to you for support.

555
00:27:52,166 --> 00:27:55,156
Speaker 2: But importantly, what I would invite all of you to

556
00:27:55,196 --> 00:28:00,416
Speaker 2: do after this recording is make a little table at home.

557
00:28:01,006 --> 00:28:04,686
Speaker 2: personal problems, work problems, and then just list the names

558
00:28:04,726 --> 00:28:07,646
Speaker 2: of the people who you go to talk to about

559
00:28:07,686 --> 00:28:10,376
Speaker 2: those issues. Some of you may have no names in

560
00:28:10,416 --> 00:28:12,196
Speaker 2: either column. You don't talk to anyone. That's fine if

561
00:28:12,216 --> 00:28:14,266
Speaker 2: you do other things and you're okay. Most of you

562
00:28:14,306 --> 00:28:17,316
Speaker 2: will have some names. Go through each name and ask yourself,

563
00:28:17,816 --> 00:28:19,916
Speaker 2: do they do both of the things that we've talked about?

564
00:28:20,056 --> 00:28:23,176
Speaker 2: Do they both listen and empathize as well as help

565
00:28:23,216 --> 00:28:26,676
Speaker 2: you reframe? If so, circle that name. Those are your

566
00:28:26,696 --> 00:28:30,696
Speaker 2: chatter advisors. If they don't do that, go buy a

567
00:28:31,056 --> 00:28:35,366
Speaker 2: red Sharpie and cathartically cross their names off your list.

568
00:28:36,086 --> 00:28:37,386
Speaker 2: That doesn't mean you have to cross them out of

569
00:28:37,406 --> 00:28:41,586
Speaker 2: your lives. Many people I love dearly, DNA determines that.

570
00:28:42,306 --> 00:28:45,096
Speaker 2: I don't talk to them about my problems. Talking about

571
00:28:45,136 --> 00:28:45,516
Speaker 2: other things.

572
00:28:45,896 --> 00:28:48,276
Speaker 1: So that was using other people more effectively. Can I

573
00:28:48,316 --> 00:28:49,976
Speaker 1: share one of the ways I like to move the needle?

574
00:28:49,996 --> 00:28:50,436
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm waiting.

575
00:28:50,456 --> 00:28:53,366
Speaker 1: Getting back to my nerdy rat-like habit example, which is

576
00:28:53,866 --> 00:28:56,666
Speaker 1: to try to hack the habit loop to do a

577
00:28:56,706 --> 00:28:58,526
Speaker 1: little bit better. And there are a couple of ways

578
00:28:58,566 --> 00:29:00,876
Speaker 1: you can do that, right? So habit, if you recall,

579
00:29:00,916 --> 00:29:02,636
Speaker 1: this little rat running through the maze is a cue,

580
00:29:02,696 --> 00:29:04,776
Speaker 1: like some bell dings or something. And then you do

581
00:29:04,816 --> 00:29:07,016
Speaker 1: a routine and you get a reward. So it turns

582
00:29:07,056 --> 00:29:08,896
Speaker 1: out if you hack those parts of the habit loop,

583
00:29:08,956 --> 00:29:11,776
Speaker 1: either the cue or the routine or the reward, you

584
00:29:11,796 --> 00:29:14,466
Speaker 1: can sometimes move things around. Best way for me is

585
00:29:14,506 --> 00:29:16,866
Speaker 1: to hack the cue. This is something that I'm failing

586
00:29:16,886 --> 00:29:19,086
Speaker 1: to achieve right now. I just mentioned that I'm trying

587
00:29:19,126 --> 00:29:21,086
Speaker 1: not to eat as many of the Cadbury mini eggs

588
00:29:21,286 --> 00:29:23,606
Speaker 1: in my life right now. There is literally a bag

589
00:29:23,686 --> 00:29:25,996
Speaker 1: in my hotel room of Cadbury mini eggs. So when

590
00:29:26,036 --> 00:29:27,756
Speaker 1: I walk in, and it's not like away in a

591
00:29:27,776 --> 00:29:31,196
Speaker 1: cabinet somewhere. It's literally on the counter in my Airbnb,

592
00:29:31,476 --> 00:29:33,416
Speaker 1: just sitting there when I walk in, being like, eat me,

593
00:29:33,476 --> 00:29:35,626
Speaker 1: eat me. That is a cue, and it will make

594
00:29:35,646 --> 00:29:37,606
Speaker 1: me do the routine of eating the Cadbury mini egg

595
00:29:37,646 --> 00:29:40,906
Speaker 1: to get the reward. But a smart person who knew

596
00:29:40,966 --> 00:29:43,866
Speaker 1: about their habit loop would move the cue away or

597
00:29:43,886 --> 00:29:46,586
Speaker 1: would just not have them in their Airbnb at all.

598
00:29:46,686 --> 00:29:48,666
Speaker 1: So that's thing number one, is change the environment.

599
00:29:48,686 --> 00:29:49,676
Speaker 2: Change the the cue.

600
00:29:50,016 --> 00:29:53,116
Speaker 1: Second hack I like is to take the routine that

601
00:29:53,136 --> 00:29:56,096
Speaker 1: you already have because your habit's good at that and

602
00:29:56,136 --> 00:29:59,596
Speaker 1: then just like add a different behavior that you could

603
00:29:59,636 --> 00:30:02,016
Speaker 1: do on top of that or instead of that. There

604
00:30:02,036 --> 00:30:03,696
Speaker 1: was a famous study that was looking at people who

605
00:30:03,736 --> 00:30:05,976
Speaker 1: wanted to develop a habit of flossing their teeth more.

606
00:30:06,516 --> 00:30:08,806
Speaker 1: And they either had people try to do this habit

607
00:30:08,826 --> 00:30:12,426
Speaker 1: of flossing their teeth before they brush their teeth or

608
00:30:12,586 --> 00:30:14,746
Speaker 1: after they brush their teeth. Why is this relevant? Well,

609
00:30:14,806 --> 00:30:17,326
Speaker 1: most of us, hopefully, have this habit of brushing our teeth.

610
00:30:17,766 --> 00:30:19,146
Speaker 1: So when you get up in the morning, maybe that's

611
00:30:19,166 --> 00:30:21,026
Speaker 1: your cue. First time you go in the bathroom, you

612
00:30:21,046 --> 00:30:23,286
Speaker 1: brush your teeth. If you try to do the flossing

613
00:30:23,306 --> 00:30:25,846
Speaker 1: before that, It's hard. But if you try to floss

614
00:30:25,886 --> 00:30:28,476
Speaker 1: your teeth after you brush, then you're already doing the

615
00:30:28,516 --> 00:30:30,456
Speaker 1: brushing routine. That happened easy. You can kind of just

616
00:30:30,496 --> 00:30:32,376
Speaker 1: tack that other habit on top. And this is what

617
00:30:32,416 --> 00:30:34,376
Speaker 1: the research found is that you actually, if you put

618
00:30:34,456 --> 00:30:37,596
Speaker 1: flossing after brushing, you do it more because you're adding

619
00:30:37,616 --> 00:30:41,186
Speaker 1: an additional behavior onto a well-learned habit. That's one way

620
00:30:41,226 --> 00:30:42,446
Speaker 1: to do it. But another way to do it is

621
00:30:42,486 --> 00:30:45,226
Speaker 1: to take a thing that you're already doing and add

622
00:30:45,286 --> 00:30:47,206
Speaker 1: something at the same time. And this is what I

623
00:30:47,226 --> 00:30:49,006
Speaker 1: try to do when brushing my teeth is like, that's

624
00:30:49,026 --> 00:30:50,796
Speaker 1: a moment when I remember like, oh yeah, the whole

625
00:30:50,816 --> 00:30:53,076
Speaker 1: gratitude thing I'm supposed to be doing or that whole

626
00:30:53,116 --> 00:30:54,816
Speaker 1: presence thing I'm supposed to be doing. Let me think

627
00:30:54,836 --> 00:30:57,286
Speaker 1: of a few things that are delights that I appreciate.

628
00:30:57,566 --> 00:30:59,466
Speaker 1: What are the meetings I'm having today? How can I

629
00:30:59,506 --> 00:31:01,346
Speaker 1: think about how I want to be in that space?

630
00:31:01,386 --> 00:31:03,746
Speaker 1: But it's like, I'm going to brush my teeth anyway.

631
00:31:03,806 --> 00:31:07,376
Speaker 1: Can I like stick in something into that space that

632
00:31:07,816 --> 00:31:09,476
Speaker 1: I want to do more to boost my happiness?

633
00:31:10,006 --> 00:31:12,486
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that. That's a kind of bundling activity.

634
00:31:12,966 --> 00:31:16,476
Speaker 2: Let me add one more habit breaking. So you can

635
00:31:16,516 --> 00:31:20,616
Speaker 2: get rid of a habit by rewarding another kind of

636
00:31:20,656 --> 00:31:24,216
Speaker 2: behavior to replace it. So I did this with my daughter.

637
00:31:24,396 --> 00:31:26,336
Speaker 2: One of my daughters, when she was younger, she had

638
00:31:26,386 --> 00:31:31,226
Speaker 2: this very creative habit. Some kids suck on their thumb.

639
00:31:31,846 --> 00:31:35,406
Speaker 2: She would massage her thyroid. It was really weird. No condition,

640
00:31:35,426 --> 00:31:37,246
Speaker 2: by the way. It was just, she would like, you know,

641
00:31:37,386 --> 00:31:37,846
Speaker 2: kind of pull.

642
00:31:38,266 --> 00:31:40,186
Speaker 1: It's very funny you say that. I had a college

643
00:31:40,246 --> 00:31:41,346
Speaker 1: roommate who used to do this.

644
00:31:41,626 --> 00:31:45,506
Speaker 2: Well, so this is what we wanted to fix before college.

645
00:31:45,786 --> 00:31:50,046
Speaker 2: So she would not only massage her thyroid, but simultaneously

646
00:31:50,366 --> 00:31:54,566
Speaker 2: while doing this, suck on the, I don't know, what

647
00:31:54,586 --> 00:31:56,626
Speaker 2: do you call this part of the hand? The front

648
00:31:56,666 --> 00:31:59,246
Speaker 2: part of the palm. You could imagine that this is

649
00:31:59,626 --> 00:32:04,736
Speaker 2: slightly disruptive in school, at dinners, when trying to communicate.

650
00:32:05,446 --> 00:32:07,506
Speaker 2: And we had tried so many different things to break

651
00:32:07,546 --> 00:32:09,946
Speaker 2: this habit. And then I remember reading a few papers,

652
00:32:09,986 --> 00:32:12,246
Speaker 2: occupational hazard, right? You kind of read up about how

653
00:32:12,266 --> 00:32:15,486
Speaker 2: to disrupt it. And there was this one set of

654
00:32:15,766 --> 00:32:19,236
Speaker 2: studies that speak to this idea, well, try to reward

655
00:32:19,286 --> 00:32:21,896
Speaker 2: something else. And you just need to make the reward

656
00:32:21,996 --> 00:32:25,956
Speaker 2: salient enough. And so I tried a few just basic rewards, like, oh,

657
00:32:26,016 --> 00:32:27,556
Speaker 2: you know, you can watch TV a little bit more

658
00:32:27,576 --> 00:32:31,376
Speaker 2: if you don't do this. Bribes, that is. None of

659
00:32:31,436 --> 00:32:35,206
Speaker 2: it worked. And then I remember reading, you have to

660
00:32:35,266 --> 00:32:38,506
Speaker 2: make the reward great enough. So please no judgment here

661
00:32:38,546 --> 00:32:41,566
Speaker 2: about what happens next. What I did is I said

662
00:32:41,606 --> 00:32:46,166
Speaker 2: to my daughter, okay, if we don't do this and

663
00:32:46,206 --> 00:32:49,486
Speaker 2: you could succeed in not doing this for several days,

664
00:32:50,206 --> 00:32:54,316
Speaker 2: you can go to your favorite ice cream shop seven

665
00:32:54,356 --> 00:32:59,716
Speaker 2: days in a row and get anything you want each time. Whoa. Done.

666
00:33:01,196 --> 00:33:03,936
Speaker 2: Totally done. And it never came back. True story.

667
00:33:04,836 --> 00:33:07,156
Speaker 1: Every parent is scribbling down right now, ice cream shop

668
00:33:07,176 --> 00:33:08,056
Speaker 1: seven days in a row.

669
00:33:08,776 --> 00:33:08,996
Speaker 2: Okay.

670
00:33:09,016 --> 00:33:11,316
Speaker 1: So we've heard some good strategies we can use. We

671
00:33:11,356 --> 00:33:14,396
Speaker 1: can hack our habits. We can use other people. We

672
00:33:14,436 --> 00:33:17,816
Speaker 1: can use strategies like whoop. All of these sound very

673
00:33:17,856 --> 00:33:21,546
Speaker 1: good in theory, but unfortunately as the GI Joe fallacy

674
00:33:21,566 --> 00:33:24,126
Speaker 1: might suggest, you need to not just know about these

675
00:33:24,166 --> 00:33:27,966
Speaker 1: strategies to actually use them. So how do we do

676
00:33:28,026 --> 00:33:31,166
Speaker 1: this in practice? Well, when Ethan and I get back

677
00:33:31,186 --> 00:33:33,846
Speaker 1: from the break, We're going to get real and talk

678
00:33:33,886 --> 00:33:36,656
Speaker 1: about situations that we were struggling with and whether we

679
00:33:36,816 --> 00:33:40,356
Speaker 1: actually used or failed to use these strategies in the trenches.

680
00:33:41,156 --> 00:33:57,536
Speaker 1: The Happiness Lab will be right back. Welcome back to

681
00:33:57,556 --> 00:34:01,006
Speaker 1: the Happiness Lab Live at South by Southwest and the

682
00:34:01,046 --> 00:34:03,886
Speaker 1: World Happiness Summit. Ethan, you and I are talking about

683
00:34:04,006 --> 00:34:06,566
Speaker 1: what we really do in the trenches when these things

684
00:34:06,706 --> 00:34:08,106
Speaker 1: actually come up. And this is where I'm going to

685
00:34:08,166 --> 00:34:09,786
Speaker 1: ask you to get real. And we're both going to

686
00:34:09,826 --> 00:34:12,636
Speaker 1: talk about situations that were really tough for us. I

687
00:34:12,676 --> 00:34:15,376
Speaker 1: know you recently had an awful situation in your family

688
00:34:15,436 --> 00:34:17,336
Speaker 1: where you had to put these tips into practice. Tell

689
00:34:17,376 --> 00:34:17,976
Speaker 1: me about that story.

690
00:34:18,976 --> 00:34:22,456
Speaker 2: Yeah, about... Three or four weeks ago, life was humming

691
00:34:22,496 --> 00:34:25,616
Speaker 2: along really great. And it's four o'clock. I'm at home.

692
00:34:25,656 --> 00:34:28,776
Speaker 2: I get a text from my wife and she says,

693
00:34:29,376 --> 00:34:34,116
Speaker 2: meet me at the ER, child's hospital now, diabetes. And

694
00:34:34,196 --> 00:34:37,936
Speaker 2: so that's exactly what I did. Went right to the hospital.

695
00:34:37,976 --> 00:34:41,556
Speaker 2: Turns out my daughter for the past several nights had

696
00:34:41,596 --> 00:34:47,036
Speaker 2: been incredibly thirsty each night and also going to the bathroom.

697
00:34:47,076 --> 00:34:50,836
Speaker 2: And in my mind, I'm the cook in the home. duh,

698
00:34:51,036 --> 00:34:53,386
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm using too much salt and she's drinking

699
00:34:53,426 --> 00:34:56,886
Speaker 2: water and therefore it's all logical. Fortunately, my wife is

700
00:34:56,926 --> 00:35:01,326
Speaker 2: a nutritionist and was able to see past that myopia

701
00:35:01,366 --> 00:35:05,006
Speaker 2: that I displayed. Normal blood sugars are 70 to 150

702
00:35:05,006 --> 00:35:10,036
Speaker 2: or so. She was at 600 plus. So super, super dangerous.

703
00:35:10,496 --> 00:35:13,896
Speaker 2: And as any parent who is here or listening knows,

704
00:35:14,896 --> 00:35:19,176
Speaker 2: nothing matters more when your kids are not thriving. And

705
00:35:20,766 --> 00:35:25,006
Speaker 2: Now I'm faced in an uncomfortable ER room for the

706
00:35:25,066 --> 00:35:29,326
Speaker 2: next two nights with this thought that my daughter is

707
00:35:29,366 --> 00:35:33,916
Speaker 2: not thriving and in this regard will never thrive until

708
00:35:33,936 --> 00:35:37,916
Speaker 2: there's a cure. So that was not a particularly pleasant

709
00:35:38,176 --> 00:35:42,656
Speaker 2: emotional place to be in. And initially I plummeted, as

710
00:35:42,696 --> 00:35:44,626
Speaker 2: we all did. We were all feeling kind of bad.

711
00:35:45,406 --> 00:35:49,746
Speaker 2: And then I actually used several tools that really, really

712
00:35:49,806 --> 00:35:53,246
Speaker 2: moved the needle. In a consequential way. So when I

713
00:35:53,346 --> 00:35:56,976
Speaker 2: think back to those three days in the ER, 85%

714
00:35:56,976 --> 00:36:02,996
Speaker 2: of my time overall was actually in a very positive space.

715
00:36:03,436 --> 00:36:04,556
Speaker 1: And what did you do to get there?

716
00:36:05,336 --> 00:36:08,376
Speaker 2: So what I did to get there, two things. Number one,

717
00:36:09,116 --> 00:36:13,786
Speaker 2: I broadened my perspective. I very quickly realized that this

718
00:36:13,866 --> 00:36:17,006
Speaker 2: is not great, but things could be way, way worse.

719
00:36:17,726 --> 00:36:20,716
Speaker 2: She can live with this. She can have a wonderful life,

720
00:36:20,756 --> 00:36:23,696
Speaker 2: continue doing what she was doing before. There are all

721
00:36:23,776 --> 00:36:27,336
Speaker 2: sorts of other stories, other kids who are not as fortunate.

722
00:36:27,736 --> 00:36:30,036
Speaker 2: This is a form, by the way, of social benchmarking

723
00:36:30,096 --> 00:36:32,336
Speaker 2: or social comparison, which you've talked a lot about on

724
00:36:32,356 --> 00:36:36,376
Speaker 2: this podcast. It's really just looking at that bigger picture,

725
00:36:36,416 --> 00:36:40,276
Speaker 2: something that we know is so vitally important for helping

726
00:36:40,316 --> 00:36:44,556
Speaker 2: people persevere through adversity. Second thing I did was leverage

727
00:36:44,596 --> 00:36:48,206
Speaker 2: a social tool. I normalized what I was going through.

728
00:36:48,936 --> 00:36:52,916
Speaker 2: So one of the psychological responses that can really kind

729
00:36:52,976 --> 00:36:56,176
Speaker 2: of send us astray is when we feel like we're

730
00:36:56,196 --> 00:37:00,116
Speaker 2: all alone. We're the only ones dealing with this. We're

731
00:37:00,136 --> 00:37:03,676
Speaker 2: a social species, and that is not a pleasant space

732
00:37:03,716 --> 00:37:08,146
Speaker 2: to be in. And so quickly started learning about who

733
00:37:08,366 --> 00:37:13,766
Speaker 2: else struggles with T1D, type 1 diabetes, Sonia Sotomayor. More

734
00:37:13,826 --> 00:37:17,566
Speaker 2: relevant to my daughter, Nick Jonas, many other people along

735
00:37:17,606 --> 00:37:21,346
Speaker 2: those lines, athletes. And all of a sudden, my goodness,

736
00:37:21,706 --> 00:37:26,106
Speaker 2: we can handle this. So those two shifts were really,

737
00:37:26,126 --> 00:37:29,436
Speaker 2: really helpful. I also activated the advisory board. They all

738
00:37:29,456 --> 00:37:32,616
Speaker 2: got a phone call. And my God, every single one

739
00:37:32,656 --> 00:37:36,496
Speaker 2: of them, the conversation was empathic. It was helping me reframe.

740
00:37:36,856 --> 00:37:40,576
Speaker 2: It was also slipping in, oh yeah, my sister, my partner,

741
00:37:40,816 --> 00:37:43,776
Speaker 2: my kid. And so the normalcy of this was becoming

742
00:37:44,256 --> 00:37:48,636
Speaker 2: increasingly clear. So that was 85% of the time. 10%

743
00:37:48,636 --> 00:37:51,786
Speaker 2: of the time, I was back down in the bowels

744
00:37:51,846 --> 00:37:55,626
Speaker 2: of despair, thinking about, oh my God, just two days ago,

745
00:37:56,506 --> 00:37:58,966
Speaker 2: looking at a picture of her from last week, everything

746
00:37:58,986 --> 00:38:02,626
Speaker 2: was perfect. And now it's no longer like that. And

747
00:38:02,666 --> 00:38:04,276
Speaker 2: the other 5% of the time, for those of you

748
00:38:04,316 --> 00:38:07,786
Speaker 2: tracking the math here, I was just fantasizing about my

749
00:38:08,246 --> 00:38:12,126
Speaker 2: bed and toilet at home. Because if you have ever

750
00:38:12,206 --> 00:38:14,886
Speaker 2: spent time in an ER and you have to go

751
00:38:14,926 --> 00:38:17,496
Speaker 2: to the bathroom, which is a normal human response, we

752
00:38:17,506 --> 00:38:20,016
Speaker 2: can all agree. I mean, at one point it was,

753
00:38:20,036 --> 00:38:22,496
Speaker 2: I don't think I need to use that for three days.

754
00:38:22,556 --> 00:38:26,096
Speaker 2: I think I can get by. And so that was

755
00:38:26,176 --> 00:38:31,006
Speaker 2: the tools that we are talking about that I used

756
00:38:31,266 --> 00:38:34,946
Speaker 2: made such a difference in that moment for me. for

757
00:38:34,986 --> 00:38:37,966
Speaker 2: my wife, for my daughter. I actually called up the

758
00:38:37,986 --> 00:38:40,466
Speaker 2: chief well-being officer of the hospital that we were in,

759
00:38:40,886 --> 00:38:43,546
Speaker 2: who's a colleague. And I said, you know, the care

760
00:38:43,586 --> 00:38:47,486
Speaker 2: here has been just unbelievable. And it was such empathy,

761
00:38:47,526 --> 00:38:52,046
Speaker 2: such compassion. But why wasn't the first thing a handout

762
00:38:52,426 --> 00:38:55,186
Speaker 2: with the 10 exemplars, the 10 people who are role

763
00:38:55,206 --> 00:38:58,466
Speaker 2: models for these kids when they're struggling and afraid? Like,

764
00:38:58,546 --> 00:39:02,506
Speaker 2: why aren't we getting these very simple tools that science

765
00:39:02,546 --> 00:39:06,856
Speaker 2: has identified with pretty good precision. Why are we giving

766
00:39:06,896 --> 00:39:09,596
Speaker 2: this to families? And so it's actually next week, we're

767
00:39:09,616 --> 00:39:12,896
Speaker 2: having a conversation about how to do that. So that

768
00:39:12,936 --> 00:39:17,416
Speaker 2: was my muck of the last month. Everyone's doing great now.

769
00:39:18,556 --> 00:39:20,536
Speaker 2: Let me turn this over to you because you were

770
00:39:20,576 --> 00:39:23,176
Speaker 2: generous enough when I was working on my last book,

771
00:39:23,576 --> 00:39:28,896
Speaker 2: I interviewed you for it. And you were incredibly authentic

772
00:39:29,096 --> 00:39:34,756
Speaker 2: about some of the and the difficulties and successes that

773
00:39:34,796 --> 00:39:37,046
Speaker 2: you've had applying some of these tools. So why don't

774
00:39:37,066 --> 00:39:39,546
Speaker 2: you tell folks here about the event that sticks out

775
00:39:39,566 --> 00:39:40,016
Speaker 2: in your life?

776
00:39:40,616 --> 00:39:43,416
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, it's the one that I shared in your book, actually,

777
00:39:43,676 --> 00:39:47,376
Speaker 1: which is, you know, cut back to the early days

778
00:39:47,476 --> 00:39:50,476
Speaker 1: of March 2020 when we're having this conversation. That was

779
00:39:50,516 --> 00:39:53,756
Speaker 1: just six years ago. But you all remember that moment

780
00:39:53,816 --> 00:39:56,876
Speaker 1: because life was, as you were saying, Coming along, we

781
00:39:56,896 --> 00:39:58,716
Speaker 1: thought everything was fine. And then all of a sudden

782
00:39:58,756 --> 00:40:02,336
Speaker 1: we had a global pandemic. And this hit obviously everyone

783
00:40:02,376 --> 00:40:05,396
Speaker 1: really badly, but hit me in a kind of special

784
00:40:05,476 --> 00:40:07,436
Speaker 1: yucky way because this was a time when I was

785
00:40:07,476 --> 00:40:10,606
Speaker 1: serving as a head of college on campus and got

786
00:40:10,646 --> 00:40:13,746
Speaker 1: the news that you're kicking out your entire community of

787
00:40:13,806 --> 00:40:15,686
Speaker 1: students who have to go home. They don't get to

788
00:40:15,726 --> 00:40:17,466
Speaker 1: come back and get their books. So they don't get

789
00:40:17,486 --> 00:40:19,406
Speaker 1: to come back and get their passports or their clothes.

790
00:40:19,426 --> 00:40:21,546
Speaker 1: These are Yale students with the time we're all on

791
00:40:21,586 --> 00:40:23,846
Speaker 1: spring break. And then it was just a sundry of

792
00:40:24,106 --> 00:40:27,416
Speaker 1: really difficult things like Do we collect all the plants

793
00:40:27,476 --> 00:40:29,916
Speaker 1: in their room or let them die? When they come back,

794
00:40:30,116 --> 00:40:32,016
Speaker 1: do we let them go into the dining hall together?

795
00:40:32,036 --> 00:40:35,696
Speaker 1: It was just decision after decision that we weren't prepared for,

796
00:40:35,756 --> 00:40:39,836
Speaker 1: and that was awful. And I was, what I now know,

797
00:40:39,936 --> 00:40:43,656
Speaker 1: was just starting to experience a really extreme form of burnout,

798
00:40:43,876 --> 00:40:45,876
Speaker 1: which what we know from the work of folks like

799
00:40:45,896 --> 00:40:49,046
Speaker 1: Christina Maslach and others tends to happen in these situations

800
00:40:49,486 --> 00:40:52,716
Speaker 1: where people there's a mismatch between your values and what

801
00:40:52,736 --> 00:40:54,496
Speaker 1: you have to do. And this was a big one

802
00:40:54,556 --> 00:40:56,146
Speaker 1: for me during COVID, not just because it was a

803
00:40:56,186 --> 00:40:58,446
Speaker 1: yucky situation for everyone, but I'm like, I'm in this

804
00:40:58,486 --> 00:41:01,826
Speaker 1: position of being the faculty member who's leading this community,

805
00:41:01,866 --> 00:41:04,586
Speaker 1: this head of college, and all the decisions we're making

806
00:41:04,646 --> 00:41:06,946
Speaker 1: is just making college really crappy. Like, why are we

807
00:41:06,966 --> 00:41:09,356
Speaker 1: even doing this? It was just this real mismatch. And

808
00:41:09,376 --> 00:41:12,496
Speaker 1: so I was seeing the classic signs of burnout. I

809
00:41:12,516 --> 00:41:17,046
Speaker 1: was seeing this sense of Physical exhaustion, even though I

810
00:41:17,046 --> 00:41:18,696
Speaker 1: was in my house all the time, I was just

811
00:41:18,736 --> 00:41:23,696
Speaker 1: like emotionally tired. I was seeing a sense of personal ineffectiveness,

812
00:41:23,736 --> 00:41:25,396
Speaker 1: which is symptom number two, which is like, even if

813
00:41:25,456 --> 00:41:28,106
Speaker 1: I did my job perfectly, why are we doing this?

814
00:41:28,146 --> 00:41:30,886
Speaker 1: This still sucks. It's really awful. But the worst one

815
00:41:30,926 --> 00:41:32,726
Speaker 1: and the one that hit me when I finally had

816
00:41:32,746 --> 00:41:35,246
Speaker 1: a wake up call is symptom number three, which is

817
00:41:35,626 --> 00:41:39,916
Speaker 1: called depersonalization. But it's basically just extreme cynicism. Everybody is

818
00:41:39,956 --> 00:41:42,416
Speaker 1: getting on your last nerve. And especially if you're in

819
00:41:42,456 --> 00:41:44,136
Speaker 1: a role where you're supposed to be caring for and

820
00:41:44,176 --> 00:41:46,596
Speaker 1: taking care of people, you don't have that care and

821
00:41:46,616 --> 00:41:48,796
Speaker 1: that compassion anymore. You just have like, I don't want

822
00:41:48,816 --> 00:41:51,606
Speaker 1: to murder anyone. And this came out in a moment of,

823
00:41:51,626 --> 00:41:52,706
Speaker 1: you know, one of my jobs as a head of

824
00:41:52,736 --> 00:41:55,426
Speaker 1: college is like, especially students who are low income, they

825
00:41:55,486 --> 00:41:57,286
Speaker 1: come up with, you know, bad situations. You have a

826
00:41:57,306 --> 00:41:58,866
Speaker 1: medical problem, or in this case, it was a, I

827
00:41:58,886 --> 00:42:01,026
Speaker 1: think it was like a dental emergency. This kid needed

828
00:42:01,326 --> 00:42:03,766
Speaker 1: dental work. And often what they'll do is they'll email

829
00:42:03,786 --> 00:42:05,546
Speaker 1: the head of college and say, hey, this thing comes up.

830
00:42:05,566 --> 00:42:07,286
Speaker 1: I'm having this problem in my mouth. I need some

831
00:42:07,366 --> 00:42:09,626
Speaker 1: funds from the college to help this. which is not

832
00:42:09,686 --> 00:42:10,946
Speaker 1: bad for me. Like, I just have to send an

833
00:42:11,026 --> 00:42:12,686
Speaker 1: email to someone that's like, oh, the student's in this

834
00:42:12,706 --> 00:42:14,826
Speaker 1: bad situation. Can you help them? And I got this

835
00:42:14,906 --> 00:42:16,646
Speaker 1: email from this student. It was a student I actually

836
00:42:16,726 --> 00:42:20,176
Speaker 1: really love, which makes telling the story even more painful.

837
00:42:20,696 --> 00:42:23,696
Speaker 1: My instant reaction was like, I have to send another

838
00:42:23,736 --> 00:42:27,296
Speaker 1: damn email. And I was like, oh, that was not

839
00:42:27,376 --> 00:42:29,796
Speaker 1: the compassionate response that I would like to proudly say

840
00:42:29,836 --> 00:42:33,126
Speaker 1: I would normally have. Like, I am not doing well.

841
00:42:33,796 --> 00:42:35,936
Speaker 1: But to admit I wasn't doing well meant that I

842
00:42:35,976 --> 00:42:38,496
Speaker 1: had to admit that like, as this happiness expert in

843
00:42:38,516 --> 00:42:39,916
Speaker 1: the middle of the situation when I should have been

844
00:42:39,976 --> 00:42:41,876
Speaker 1: using these tools, I was supposed to be doing better.

845
00:42:41,916 --> 00:42:44,256
Speaker 1: How did I let myself get to this point? And

846
00:42:44,316 --> 00:42:46,526
Speaker 1: also made an even harder decision, which is I had

847
00:42:46,566 --> 00:42:49,306
Speaker 1: the sense that I was no longer showing that kind

848
00:42:49,346 --> 00:42:51,906
Speaker 1: of compassion and the wherewithal to be doing this job

849
00:42:51,946 --> 00:42:54,326
Speaker 1: anymore in the middle of this. And I was realizing like,

850
00:42:54,466 --> 00:42:57,746
Speaker 1: I need to take some time off. And that was awful.

851
00:42:57,926 --> 00:43:00,326
Speaker 1: It was scary. It was really hard to admit. And so...

852
00:43:00,906 --> 00:43:04,536
Speaker 1: Tools that I used, tool number one was really a

853
00:43:04,776 --> 00:43:09,156
Speaker 1: very intentional version of self-compassion, where it was like, we're

854
00:43:09,276 --> 00:43:11,316
Speaker 1: in the middle of a global pandemic. I have just

855
00:43:11,376 --> 00:43:13,826
Speaker 1: kicked out this community that I've spent five years building

856
00:43:13,866 --> 00:43:17,366
Speaker 1: and care for a lot. obviously this is tough. Obviously

857
00:43:17,406 --> 00:43:20,526
Speaker 1: this makes sense. I remember I bought and had delivered

858
00:43:20,866 --> 00:43:23,986
Speaker 1: three of Christina Maslach's books on burnout and read them

859
00:43:24,046 --> 00:43:26,566
Speaker 1: through and through to be like, okay, this fits. I'm

860
00:43:26,606 --> 00:43:29,326
Speaker 1: having a values mismatch. It's not just me. And what

861
00:43:29,346 --> 00:43:32,456
Speaker 1: I was doing there is doing the steps of self-compassion

862
00:43:32,476 --> 00:43:35,696
Speaker 1: that Kristen Neff talks about. Step number one is mindful, right?

863
00:43:35,856 --> 00:43:37,636
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I am not in a good place.

864
00:43:37,816 --> 00:43:40,496
Speaker 1: I am at peak burnout right now. Step number two,

865
00:43:40,796 --> 00:43:43,776
Speaker 1: exactly what Ethan was saying, And that's normal. It makes

866
00:43:43,816 --> 00:43:46,056
Speaker 1: sense that I'm feeling this. This is classic pattern that

867
00:43:46,076 --> 00:43:48,736
Speaker 1: people see in burnout. I'm not alone. Nothing's wrong with me.

868
00:43:49,356 --> 00:43:52,056
Speaker 1: And then step three was kind of like self-kindness. Like

869
00:43:52,136 --> 00:43:53,796
Speaker 1: what can I do to take stuff off my plate?

870
00:43:53,816 --> 00:43:55,836
Speaker 1: Can I check in with a chatter advisor? Can I

871
00:43:55,856 --> 00:43:58,456
Speaker 1: go seek some help? But a big one for me

872
00:43:58,936 --> 00:44:01,606
Speaker 1: was that I just realized that I needed that big

873
00:44:01,646 --> 00:44:04,406
Speaker 1: environment change, that nothing was going to get better until

874
00:44:04,466 --> 00:44:07,196
Speaker 1: I really took a break. And so In the midst

875
00:44:07,236 --> 00:44:09,796
Speaker 1: of this really hard time, I decided to switch my environment.

876
00:44:09,876 --> 00:44:11,796
Speaker 1: And that was the strategy that you wrote about in

877
00:44:11,836 --> 00:44:13,796
Speaker 1: your book was my switching my environment.

878
00:44:14,276 --> 00:44:19,216
Speaker 2: Well, you know, it's interesting. We often talk about avoidance

879
00:44:19,236 --> 00:44:23,996
Speaker 2: as something that you should avoid. Not good for you.

880
00:44:24,976 --> 00:44:29,296
Speaker 2: So about a week and a half after my daughter's diagnosis,

881
00:44:30,126 --> 00:44:33,526
Speaker 2: I had a pretty important set of business trips set up.

882
00:44:34,106 --> 00:44:35,826
Speaker 2: My wife was actually going to accompany me on a

883
00:44:35,866 --> 00:44:38,066
Speaker 2: few of them. So her parents were coming up to

884
00:44:38,106 --> 00:44:40,726
Speaker 2: watch the kids. There was no possibility that that was

885
00:44:40,746 --> 00:44:43,476
Speaker 2: going to happen. And I was about to not go

886
00:44:43,546 --> 00:44:46,116
Speaker 2: on any of these trips. And my wife, you've got

887
00:44:46,136 --> 00:44:49,056
Speaker 2: to go. It's really important. I'm here. I've got my parents.

888
00:44:49,176 --> 00:44:51,636
Speaker 2: We'll hold down the fort. And don't worry, I'll go

889
00:44:51,676 --> 00:44:56,196
Speaker 2: away when you come back. Important. It was really remarkable.

890
00:44:56,476 --> 00:45:00,956
Speaker 2: I left. I was experiencing guilt. The moment I actually

891
00:45:00,976 --> 00:45:04,596
Speaker 2: got away, I did not forget about my family. But

892
00:45:04,736 --> 00:45:09,866
Speaker 2: the change, the physical distance, it turned that volume down

893
00:45:10,506 --> 00:45:13,546
Speaker 2: on the emotion just a little bit. It shifted my

894
00:45:13,586 --> 00:45:18,176
Speaker 2: perspective in ways that were really, really useful. And I

895
00:45:18,216 --> 00:45:20,576
Speaker 2: know that is true of you as well. And you

896
00:45:20,596 --> 00:45:23,556
Speaker 2: getting just, I mean, a state away. You went from

897
00:45:23,636 --> 00:45:25,056
Speaker 2: New Haven to Cambridge.

898
00:45:25,296 --> 00:45:25,556
Speaker 1: Yeah.

899
00:45:25,856 --> 00:45:27,656
Speaker 2: And tell us, I.

900
00:45:27,586 --> 00:45:30,136
Speaker 1: Mean, what was the emotion you experienced like? decided to

901
00:45:30,176 --> 00:45:32,496
Speaker 1: take some time off away from this role. I did,

902
00:45:32,796 --> 00:45:34,476
Speaker 1: to be fair, I did stick with it a little

903
00:45:34,516 --> 00:45:36,576
Speaker 1: longer than I wanted to, because it's really bad to

904
00:45:36,676 --> 00:45:38,776
Speaker 1: completely abandon your community in the middle of a pandemic.

905
00:45:38,816 --> 00:45:41,236
Speaker 1: So I waited till the end of the semester. But yeah,

906
00:45:41,256 --> 00:45:43,376
Speaker 1: I moved from New Haven, Connecticut, which is where Yale is,

907
00:45:43,416 --> 00:45:45,826
Speaker 1: to Cambridge, Massachusetts, which for me is kind of a

908
00:45:45,866 --> 00:45:49,086
Speaker 1: place where I have positive memories. I was in graduate

909
00:45:49,106 --> 00:45:51,946
Speaker 1: school there, and I also still have lots of friends there.

910
00:45:52,346 --> 00:45:55,266
Speaker 1: And so that was, I think, strategy number two, not

911
00:45:55,286 --> 00:45:58,406
Speaker 1: just the environmental change, was I know I have my

912
00:45:58,446 --> 00:46:00,986
Speaker 1: chatter advisors there. I know I have people that can

913
00:46:01,726 --> 00:46:03,626
Speaker 1: know me in a different state and so on. And

914
00:46:03,666 --> 00:46:07,446
Speaker 1: it was transformative. Instantly upon getting there, did I have

915
00:46:07,466 --> 00:46:10,456
Speaker 1: the clarity that like, oh, even though I love this role,

916
00:46:10,496 --> 00:46:12,616
Speaker 1: even though it's so meaningful and powerful to me, I

917
00:46:12,676 --> 00:46:14,616
Speaker 1: can't do that at the same time as I'm doing

918
00:46:14,656 --> 00:46:16,276
Speaker 1: the podcast and so on. Part of it was what

919
00:46:16,296 --> 00:46:18,016
Speaker 1: was going on with COVID, but part of it was like,

920
00:46:18,036 --> 00:46:20,186
Speaker 1: I just have too much on my plate. And I

921
00:46:20,306 --> 00:46:23,246
Speaker 1: really just, it sounds ridiculous to say I couldn't see

922
00:46:23,286 --> 00:46:26,546
Speaker 1: that before I made that environmental change, but I genuinely couldn't.

923
00:46:26,726 --> 00:46:29,616
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I do think it's important to emphasize there's

924
00:46:29,656 --> 00:46:34,216
Speaker 2: a caveat here where you can't always do this. And

925
00:46:34,236 --> 00:46:37,556
Speaker 2: that's okay because there are dozens of other strategies that

926
00:46:37,596 --> 00:46:40,936
Speaker 2: you can use when you can't do this. But if

927
00:46:40,996 --> 00:46:44,126
Speaker 2: the conditions are right, this can be a really, really

928
00:46:44,256 --> 00:46:46,946
Speaker 2: useful tool. The learning lesson for me, and I'm curious

929
00:46:47,186 --> 00:46:49,626
Speaker 2: if this is true for you, is as I rack

930
00:46:49,746 --> 00:46:55,096
Speaker 2: up these kinds of hits of life and discoveries about

931
00:46:55,216 --> 00:46:58,256
Speaker 2: how the science helps and how it doesn't, I have

932
00:46:58,296 --> 00:47:02,176
Speaker 2: gotten a lot better at doing the things that move

933
00:47:02,216 --> 00:47:04,946
Speaker 2: the needle a lot more quickly than I would in

934
00:47:04,966 --> 00:47:06,306
Speaker 2: the past. Is that true for you as well?

935
00:47:06,686 --> 00:47:09,276
Speaker 1: Oh, that's definitely true for me too. I think Also,

936
00:47:09,636 --> 00:47:12,316
Speaker 1: what's interesting is, first, I think you're building a habit.

937
00:47:12,376 --> 00:47:14,396
Speaker 1: You're kind of getting better at using these tools because

938
00:47:14,416 --> 00:47:16,316
Speaker 1: you just use them more often. So it's like, oh,

939
00:47:16,476 --> 00:47:18,556
Speaker 1: from life comes, I turn to self-compassion or I turn

940
00:47:18,596 --> 00:47:20,896
Speaker 1: to this other thing. The second thing is I think

941
00:47:21,316 --> 00:47:24,136
Speaker 1: you see the evidence that it's not that bad because

942
00:47:24,176 --> 00:47:26,976
Speaker 1: I think sometimes some of these tools come with a

943
00:47:27,046 --> 00:47:29,326
Speaker 1: little bit of, I don't know if it's guilt or

944
00:47:29,426 --> 00:47:31,446
Speaker 1: disbelief that they're going to work, right? I know when

945
00:47:31,466 --> 00:47:33,506
Speaker 1: I stepped away from that role, I just couldn't see

946
00:47:33,526 --> 00:47:37,006
Speaker 1: that it was going to be that helpful. Even self-compassion sometimes,

947
00:47:37,066 --> 00:47:39,996
Speaker 1: I feel like, despite knowing the work, when I engage

948
00:47:40,036 --> 00:47:42,316
Speaker 1: in that form of self-talk, there's another little part of

949
00:47:42,356 --> 00:47:45,056
Speaker 1: my chatter that's going like, you don't deserve this. You're

950
00:47:45,076 --> 00:47:47,816
Speaker 1: being indulgent. And I have to squish that down to

951
00:47:47,856 --> 00:47:50,426
Speaker 1: get through it. I think it's hard to know that

952
00:47:50,486 --> 00:47:52,906
Speaker 1: these things are going to work. These strategies are going

953
00:47:52,926 --> 00:47:54,626
Speaker 1: to work. Even if you know the research, like I

954
00:47:54,666 --> 00:47:56,766
Speaker 1: can quote the papers, but it's still hard to believe

955
00:47:56,806 --> 00:47:59,026
Speaker 1: that it's really going to work. And that, that is

956
00:47:59,106 --> 00:48:01,276
Speaker 1: the worst part of the GI Joe fallacy in action,

957
00:48:01,296 --> 00:48:03,696
Speaker 1: which is like, even when you know this stuff, your

958
00:48:03,756 --> 00:48:06,216
Speaker 1: intuition doesn't change. Even though I can quote the studies

959
00:48:06,236 --> 00:48:09,206
Speaker 1: and It's like I'm looking at that line illusion, the

960
00:48:09,246 --> 00:48:11,426
Speaker 1: Mueller-Lyer illusion that I talked about before, where it's like

961
00:48:11,766 --> 00:48:13,986
Speaker 1: the lines just pop out to me as different lengths.

962
00:48:14,406 --> 00:48:16,666
Speaker 1: I know the work on self-compassion, but I'm just hearing, like,

963
00:48:16,686 --> 00:48:18,556
Speaker 1: it's probably not going to work. You just have to

964
00:48:18,576 --> 00:48:19,846
Speaker 1: kind of push through and do it.

965
00:48:19,976 --> 00:48:22,516
Speaker 2: Well, and it's essential because one of the ways that

966
00:48:22,556 --> 00:48:25,996
Speaker 2: we learn, of course, is through doing. There's this wonderful

967
00:48:26,056 --> 00:48:29,156
Speaker 2: theory called self-perception theory. The way we learn about ourselves

968
00:48:29,216 --> 00:48:32,716
Speaker 2: is we observe ourselves in life. And so when you

969
00:48:33,176 --> 00:48:36,286
Speaker 2: practice these tools, and the practicing is just so important,

970
00:48:36,646 --> 00:48:39,506
Speaker 2: I always invite folks, like, give these different tools a shot.

971
00:48:39,866 --> 00:48:41,946
Speaker 2: If they work, keep using them. If they don't, maybe

972
00:48:41,966 --> 00:48:43,996
Speaker 2: give them one more shot and then move on to

973
00:48:44,026 --> 00:48:47,756
Speaker 2: something else. Because as you rack up those wins, then

974
00:48:47,796 --> 00:48:50,416
Speaker 2: you realize, oh, this can be a part of my repertoire.

975
00:48:50,876 --> 00:48:53,446
Speaker 1: You also, I think, build up some agency, too. Because

976
00:48:53,506 --> 00:48:55,686
Speaker 1: I think when you can be in these hits of life,

977
00:48:55,766 --> 00:48:58,666
Speaker 1: it just feels really defeatist. And when you try something

978
00:48:58,706 --> 00:49:00,956
Speaker 1: and it works, you get a little bit more hopeful

979
00:49:01,356 --> 00:49:04,276
Speaker 1: about your own emotion regulation, right? You say like, oh, well,

980
00:49:04,736 --> 00:49:06,636
Speaker 1: even though it feels like this is a new one,

981
00:49:06,676 --> 00:49:07,856
Speaker 1: this is a hit that I'm not going to come

982
00:49:07,896 --> 00:49:10,116
Speaker 1: back from. Last time it was that kind of hit.

983
00:49:10,336 --> 00:49:11,756
Speaker 1: I used it and it worked. So maybe let me

984
00:49:11,796 --> 00:49:12,456
Speaker 1: try it this time.

985
00:49:12,556 --> 00:49:15,916
Speaker 2: You know, one of the most chilling findings that I

986
00:49:16,156 --> 00:49:19,236
Speaker 2: have read during my career was a study which it

987
00:49:19,316 --> 00:49:25,156
Speaker 2: looked at adolescents' beliefs in whether they could control their emotions. And,

988
00:49:25,176 --> 00:49:28,976
Speaker 2: you have to understand, I direct a lab called the

989
00:49:29,016 --> 00:49:33,156
Speaker 2: Emotion and Self-Control Lab. I'm in charge of an institute

990
00:49:33,196 --> 00:49:37,366
Speaker 2: for mental fitness. I've dedicated my life to this pursuit

991
00:49:37,486 --> 00:49:40,146
Speaker 2: and the belief that, of course, this is possible. 40%

992
00:49:40,146 --> 00:49:44,586
Speaker 2: of adolescents did not think they could control their emotions. Mm-hmm.

993
00:49:45,126 --> 00:49:47,686
Speaker 2: If you do not think you can control your emotions,

994
00:49:47,726 --> 00:49:49,426
Speaker 2: if you don't have that sense of agency that you

995
00:49:49,446 --> 00:49:54,196
Speaker 2: were referring to, why would you ever try? And in fact,

996
00:49:54,676 --> 00:49:58,096
Speaker 2: there are hundreds and hundreds of papers on this notion

997
00:49:58,136 --> 00:50:01,196
Speaker 2: of self-efficacy, which show if you don't think you are

998
00:50:01,216 --> 00:50:04,966
Speaker 2: capable of doing something, guess what? You don't try to

999
00:50:05,026 --> 00:50:07,986
Speaker 2: do it. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you don't think

1000
00:50:08,026 --> 00:50:10,406
Speaker 2: going to the gym is going to help you lose

1001
00:50:10,446 --> 00:50:13,406
Speaker 2: weight and be more physically fit, why on earth Would

1002
00:50:13,426 --> 00:50:15,226
Speaker 2: you do the painful things that occur in a gym?

1003
00:50:15,806 --> 00:50:20,376
Speaker 2: You wouldn't. So this notion of agency is just critically,

1004
00:50:20,456 --> 00:50:24,416
Speaker 2: critically important. The belief that you can do it coupled

1005
00:50:24,796 --> 00:50:28,066
Speaker 2: with actual knowledge of the tools you can use to

1006
00:50:28,106 --> 00:50:30,806
Speaker 2: bring those beliefs to fruition. And now you have whoop

1007
00:50:30,846 --> 00:50:33,146
Speaker 2: as well. So, you know, every one of you here

1008
00:50:33,246 --> 00:50:35,026
Speaker 2: should never struggle again once you leave.

1009
00:50:36,956 --> 00:50:40,356
Speaker 1: Ethan is joking because our final point and the reason

1010
00:50:40,456 --> 00:50:42,776
Speaker 1: we kind of came clean with this curse and our

1011
00:50:42,816 --> 00:50:46,016
Speaker 1: dark secret is like, this is hard. We are the

1012
00:50:46,096 --> 00:50:48,416
Speaker 1: experts on this stuff. We can quote you the studies

1013
00:50:48,896 --> 00:50:50,836
Speaker 1: and we still find it hard.

1014
00:50:51,116 --> 00:50:51,436
Speaker 2: Why?

1015
00:50:51,596 --> 00:50:55,476
Speaker 1: Because we are human, unfortunately. I think it's fortunate. In

1016
00:50:55,506 --> 00:50:56,776
Speaker 1: the age of A, I'm going to say it's fortunate

1017
00:50:56,816 --> 00:50:58,246
Speaker 1: that I'm human. I like being a human.

1018
00:50:58,326 --> 00:50:59,126
Speaker 2: Good catch, yeah.

1019
00:50:59,166 --> 00:51:02,126
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you. But being a human means that this

1020
00:51:02,166 --> 00:51:05,426
Speaker 1: stuff is really hard. But the good news that feels

1021
00:51:05,466 --> 00:51:08,326
Speaker 1: like such a salvation... is that it does actually work

1022
00:51:08,386 --> 00:51:10,806
Speaker 1: if you put it into practice. And it does become

1023
00:51:11,086 --> 00:51:13,106
Speaker 1: easier if you put it into practice because that makes

1024
00:51:13,146 --> 00:51:14,746
Speaker 1: it easier if you put it in practice time one

1025
00:51:14,766 --> 00:51:16,256
Speaker 1: that you can put it in practice at time two.

1026
00:51:17,016 --> 00:51:19,696
Speaker 1: But we also have to come clean about what we

1027
00:51:19,736 --> 00:51:20,616
Speaker 1: heard at the beginning of this.

1028
00:51:20,536 --> 00:51:21,076
Speaker 2: Show, right?

1029
00:51:21,316 --> 00:51:24,696
Speaker 1: G.I. Joe fallacy. Just hearing these tips on the podcast,

1030
00:51:25,016 --> 00:51:27,506
Speaker 1: just hearing these tips in the live show, it's not

1031
00:51:27,526 --> 00:51:30,606
Speaker 1: going to move the needle unless you put them into practice.

1032
00:51:31,146 --> 00:51:33,166
Speaker 1: So we're going to send you off. to let the

1033
00:51:33,226 --> 00:51:35,796
Speaker 1: real work begin of putting this stuff into practice. But

1034
00:51:35,816 --> 00:51:38,116
Speaker 1: the good news is it's going to be really effective

1035
00:51:38,236 --> 00:51:40,256
Speaker 1: if you do it, not just for you, but for

1036
00:51:40,296 --> 00:51:42,296
Speaker 1: me and Ethan too. Can we get a round of

1037
00:51:42,316 --> 00:51:45,916
Speaker 1: applause for the amazing Ethan Cross, Happiness Lab Live at

1038
00:51:46,016 --> 00:51:49,836
Speaker 1: South by Southwest and World Happiness Summit. Thank you all

1039
00:51:49,916 --> 00:51:51,036
Speaker 1: so much for being here.

1040
00:51:51,066 --> 00:51:51,646
Speaker 2: Thank you.

1041
00:51:52,966 --> 00:51:54,826
Speaker 1: If you'd like to learn more about Ethan's work, I

1042
00:51:54,846 --> 00:51:58,446
Speaker 1: highly recommend checking out his books. Shift, managing your emotions

1043
00:51:58,486 --> 00:52:01,166
Speaker 1: so they don't manage you. And Chatter, the voice in

1044
00:52:01,226 --> 00:52:03,286
Speaker 1: our head, why it matters and how to harness it.

1045
00:52:04,266 --> 00:52:05,946
Speaker 1: A big thank you to the folks at the World

1046
00:52:05,986 --> 00:52:08,746
Speaker 1: Happiness Summit and at South by Southwest for making these

1047
00:52:08,806 --> 00:52:12,626
Speaker 1: conversations possible. Next week, we're taking a little break from

1048
00:52:12,666 --> 00:52:16,526
Speaker 1: our series of live conversations to celebrate National Cat Day.

1049
00:52:17,226 --> 00:52:19,496
Speaker 1: We hear a lot about the happiness benefits of dogs,

1050
00:52:19,876 --> 00:52:22,656
Speaker 1: but what about our feline friends? Turns out that cats

1051
00:52:22,716 --> 00:52:25,106
Speaker 1: have some pretty special ways of boosting our well-being too.

1052
00:52:25,896 --> 00:52:28,746
Speaker 1: We'll speak with a cat cognition expert about the science

1053
00:52:28,806 --> 00:52:31,746
Speaker 1: behind our relationship with cats and the unique ways they

1054
00:52:31,766 --> 00:52:34,886
Speaker 1: can make human lives a little happier. They are speaking

1055
00:52:34,926 --> 00:52:37,566
Speaker 1: to us all the time. And I do hear cats

1056
00:52:37,646 --> 00:52:40,526
Speaker 1: are less expressive than dogs. But if you know what

1057
00:52:40,546 --> 00:52:43,536
Speaker 1: you're looking for, your cat is always telling you something.

1058
00:52:43,936 --> 00:52:46,776
Speaker 1: That's all next time on The Happiness Lab with me, Dr.

1059
00:52:46,816 --> 00:52:47,556
Speaker 1: Laurie Santos.