1 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:11,800 Speaker 1: Welcome to Strictly Business, Variety's weekly podcast about the business 2 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:16,079 Speaker 1: of entertainment. I'm jem Aswad, Variety's executive music editor, and 3 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:19,479 Speaker 1: joining us today is veteran music attorney Donald Passman, whose 4 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:22,280 Speaker 1: list of clients over the years has included Taylor Swift, 5 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:26,520 Speaker 1: Paul Simon, Stevie wonder Adele and many more. That's actually 6 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:29,160 Speaker 1: not what he's best known for. If there's a bible 7 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 1: for the music industry, it's his book All You Need 8 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 1: to Know About the Music Business. Since the first edition 9 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 1: came out more than thirty years ago, it is guided 10 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:41,120 Speaker 1: countless musicians and executives and has prevented many of them 11 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 1: from making decisions they'd later regret considering the deep detailed 12 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:50,200 Speaker 1: Passman gets into about contracts, royalties, and other complicated business arrangements. 13 00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:53,519 Speaker 1: His tone in the book is remarkably conversational, and he 14 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 1: makes sure the readers don't miss the important stuff. Section 15 00:00:56,920 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 1: on business managers, for example, begins with him saying listen 16 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:04,640 Speaker 1: to me in italics in several exclamation marks. But that's 17 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:06,960 Speaker 1: not how he speaks in the interview that follows, which 18 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:09,200 Speaker 1: I have to say is the best podcast interview I've 19 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 1: ever done. We spoke a bit about his process of 20 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:14,959 Speaker 1: writing the eleventh edition of the book, but mostly about 21 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:17,679 Speaker 1: what's in it in the state of the music industry today, 22 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 1: everything from AI and the threat it brings to intellectual property, 23 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 1: to catalog sales, the new models for streaming services, and 24 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:28,160 Speaker 1: lots more. Like a true lawyer with his eye on 25 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:32,479 Speaker 1: billable hours, he answers the questions thoroughly but concisely, which 26 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 1: means we cover a lot of ground in a short 27 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:37,399 Speaker 1: period of time. You can hear it after the break 28 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:48,840 Speaker 1: you're listening to Strictly Business with Donald Passman, author of 29 00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 1: All you Need to Know about the Music Business. What 30 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:54,960 Speaker 1: is it like when you meet people? I mean who 31 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 1: you know who have read the book? And I mean 32 00:01:57,520 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 1: I've read it when I was a pupp thirty some 33 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 1: years ago. 34 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 2: Go well, I mean, you know, a couple of people 35 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 2: are a little starstruck with it, I guess, But for 36 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:11,760 Speaker 2: the most part, I just want to put people at ease. 37 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:14,840 Speaker 2: I mean, for me, it's all about just telling, explaining 38 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 2: it and easy to understand terms, and you know, having 39 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 2: a conversation. I mean, I try to write the book 40 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 2: as if we were sitting across each other talking so 41 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:28,239 Speaker 2: I don't like the idea of being on any elevated pedestal. 42 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:29,920 Speaker 2: I just want to have a conversation. 43 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:33,679 Speaker 1: Well, that's very cool and very very humble as well. 44 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:37,799 Speaker 1: What is it like revising it? It looks exhausting. How 45 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:42,680 Speaker 1: do you have time to do the level of updating 46 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:46,400 Speaker 1: and really modernizing that's required for something that moves as 47 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:47,840 Speaker 1: quickly as the music business. 48 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 2: It's a good question, you know. Look, a lot of 49 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:56,519 Speaker 2: the is done nights and weekends just and I love 50 00:02:56,560 --> 00:02:58,800 Speaker 2: the writing part of it. The research is what's hard. 51 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:02,680 Speaker 2: The writing is something I really enjoy and you know, 52 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:05,839 Speaker 2: putting it all together. The research, though, takes a lot 53 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 2: of time because I have to talk to a lot 54 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:11,640 Speaker 2: of people. You know, I don't know the details of 55 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 2: things and I and there's areas that I don't deal 56 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 2: in on a daily basis that I just have to 57 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:19,120 Speaker 2: get educated about. But I love the fact that it 58 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:22,399 Speaker 2: forces me to get to get well educated every few 59 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 2: years so that I can put in accurate information. 60 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 1: Yes, take it from a journalist. The best way to 61 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 1: learn about anything is to write. 62 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 2: About it exactly. 63 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:35,960 Speaker 1: Do you have much help in updating it? Do you 64 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 1: have like a team that assists you with the research. 65 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 2: No, it's pretty much all me. And the reason is 66 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 2: is that I need to understand something before I can 67 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 2: explain it, and so I want to talk directly to 68 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 2: the person that I'm dealing with and ask questions, and 69 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 2: then if it's not clear to me, I need to 70 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 2: ask follow up questions and I need to go over 71 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 2: it a few times until I can get it right. 72 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 2: Particularly with complicated things or things that are way outside 73 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:08,080 Speaker 2: my normal wheelhouse, I have to be sure I understand them, 74 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 2: and the only way I can do that is to 75 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 2: talk directly to the source and obviously read articles and 76 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 2: you know, generally get updated. 77 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 1: I think I know the answer to this. But what 78 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 1: has been the most difficult and complicated part to update 79 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:25,160 Speaker 1: for this new edition? 80 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 2: Oh? Good question. I think probably the artificial intelligence section. 81 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:37,159 Speaker 2: Because it's so new and so fast moving and so 82 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:40,480 Speaker 2: much going on and so many issues around it that 83 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:44,359 Speaker 2: you wouldn't think that I, you know, it's not like 84 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:46,720 Speaker 2: there's a one place to go to get all that information. 85 00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 2: I had to go to in multiple places and try 86 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:50,280 Speaker 2: to synthesize it. 87 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 1: No, I would think. So, I mean that feels like 88 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:58,040 Speaker 1: an ideal jumping off point for that part of the conversation. 89 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:00,960 Speaker 1: But let me ask you first, do you what more 90 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:02,919 Speaker 1: would you like to say about the book before we 91 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:05,800 Speaker 1: start getting into the topics that are actually in the. 92 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 2: Book, Just that it's important to me to keep things updated, 93 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:15,280 Speaker 2: and that, you know, no matter how complex the subject, 94 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 2: I want to break it down into easily digestible, understandable 95 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 2: chunks because I know my audience, I mean, and one 96 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 2: of the things that has always come easy to me 97 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 2: is the ability to take a complicated subject and explain 98 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:33,560 Speaker 2: it in simple terms. But I have to understand it first. 99 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:37,040 Speaker 2: So once I understand it, then I can put it 100 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 2: into words that I think make it easy to read, 101 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 2: because I'm you know, musicians are oriented to their ears. 102 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:46,040 Speaker 2: There is an audio edition of the book this time, 103 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:49,359 Speaker 2: by the way, as there was last. But you know, 104 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:51,280 Speaker 2: I wrote this for people who don't like to read. 105 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 1: Okay, fair point. One of the things, I mean, I 106 00:05:57,360 --> 00:05:59,480 Speaker 1: actually think you do a great job of that because 107 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 1: one of the things I love about it, and I 108 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 1: had kind of forgotten going along the way, things like, 109 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:08,600 Speaker 1: you know, where you're talking about business managers and how 110 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:11,839 Speaker 1: important they are, and it leads with listen to me 111 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 1: in italics in three exclamation marks, because you know, I mean, 112 00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 1: you could say, in very dry lawyerly terms, this is 113 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:22,600 Speaker 1: very important, or you can say listen to me with 114 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:26,400 Speaker 1: three exclamation marks. So I think that's rather more effective. 115 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 1: Would you all right, we'll get to AI in a minute. 116 00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:34,479 Speaker 1: Would you advise young people to get into music law? 117 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:37,600 Speaker 1: Is it too crowded a field or is it a 118 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 1: fertile place full of opportunities for a career. 119 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:46,559 Speaker 2: Well, I think it's both. I mean, just like any 120 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:50,279 Speaker 2: other aspect of what you're going to do in life, 121 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 2: I wouldn't be dotted by the fact that there's people 122 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 2: already doing it, and that, you know, my whole advice 123 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:01,039 Speaker 2: to anybody in any field is you've got to follow 124 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:04,320 Speaker 2: your passion. And if you're passionate about being a lawyer 125 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:07,520 Speaker 2: and doing music, please come on in. We want you. 126 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 2: We want people who are enthusiastic and excited about it, 127 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 2: because that's the way the whole thing continues, and it's 128 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 2: good for all of us. It elevates the whole industry. 129 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 1: And do you find that musicians and artists and young 130 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 1: executives in general are more savvy about the business than 131 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:30,880 Speaker 1: they were ten or twenty years ago. Like enormously so 132 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 1: or just a bit more. 133 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 2: I think somewhere between moderately too enormously. I mean, I 134 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 2: think people realize now, particularly in this world where artists 135 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 2: have to build their own buzz and get their own 136 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 2: things started before they can have a career, whether they're 137 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:51,240 Speaker 2: going to go to a label or not, they have 138 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 2: to understand something about the business in order just to 139 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 2: get that going. The reality is that most artists are 140 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:01,120 Speaker 2: not that interested in business, not that they wouldn't be 141 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 2: good at it. And by the way, some artists are 142 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 2: very interested in business and quite good at it, but 143 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 2: most of them, you know, want to spend their time 144 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 2: rightfully so making music. So but at the same time, 145 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 2: I find people far more educated and interested and knowledgeable 146 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 2: than they did ten or twenty years ago. 147 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:23,600 Speaker 1: No, I would think so, and I actually, to be honest, 148 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 1: I find that some superstar artists who get more and 149 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:30,560 Speaker 1: more involved in their business their music suffers, quite honestly, 150 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:32,320 Speaker 1: you know. I found that to be the case with 151 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 1: the Rolling Stones. I found that to be the case 152 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:37,000 Speaker 1: with Prince. I found that to be the case with Queen. 153 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 1: You don't have to comment on that, but you know, 154 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:45,200 Speaker 1: I mean, it is it is very, very time consuming. 155 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:48,600 Speaker 1: And what is key to that is, you know, finding 156 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 1: someone who can watch someone's business. Is there are there 157 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 1: any like real quick bullet point tips you would give 158 00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 1: young musicians when choosing their team, when choosing an attorney, 159 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:02,960 Speaker 1: when choosing a manager. 160 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I actually have whole chapters on each 161 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 2: of that, how to pick a lawyer, to pick an agent, 162 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:12,320 Speaker 2: how to pick a manager and a business manager and 163 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 2: so forth. But you know, the basics are number one, 164 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:18,720 Speaker 2: just do your homework and find out who's who, because 165 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 2: there's very charming crooks out there. Then you don't want 166 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:23,840 Speaker 2: to be with one of them. And two, don't be 167 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:27,960 Speaker 2: afraid to trust your instincts that you know, if you 168 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:30,400 Speaker 2: think you're meeting with somebody sleazy, you probably are. 169 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:35,720 Speaker 1: Okay, that is good, That is very good bold face advice. 170 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 1: All right, let's get to AI really quick. Where do 171 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:42,400 Speaker 1: you see this going ultimately? Because you've got a better, 172 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:45,320 Speaker 1: you know, three sixty view on this than most people. 173 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:49,200 Speaker 1: Has there been anything like it before? And do you 174 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:52,680 Speaker 1: think it'll end up being like treated like Sampling, you know, 175 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 1: which people thought was completely unmanageable but has ended up 176 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:57,520 Speaker 1: being reasonably manageable. 177 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:03,400 Speaker 2: Well, you're talking specifically about music. I assume because ais 178 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 2: can has the potential to do disrupt and affect everything 179 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 2: in a much larger way, I think it will end 180 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:15,800 Speaker 2: up being somewhat manageable. I don't think we can't put 181 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:18,120 Speaker 2: the genie back in the bottle. It's here. It's going 182 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:20,840 Speaker 2: to get more sophisticated and better as we go along. 183 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 2: But I think the issues around it are fairly straightforward. 184 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:32,840 Speaker 2: One is, you know, artists having their their voice used, 185 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:37,880 Speaker 2: you know, like the Weekend Drake, you know AI piece 186 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 2: that was using their voice and a new song that 187 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:46,440 Speaker 2: was not involving them and being associated with that. You know. 188 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:50,280 Speaker 2: Another one is what happens to music that's created by AI. 189 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:52,960 Speaker 2: And there's a lot of issues around that that I 190 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 2: go into in the book, But sort of the big 191 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 2: picture is can it dilute what the human artists are 192 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 2: getting paid? Because the way streaming works is that you 193 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:06,000 Speaker 2: take the total number of streams in a month and 194 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:09,080 Speaker 2: you take the share of streams that was yours, and 195 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 2: you and your label will get that amount of money, 196 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:12,839 Speaker 2: and you and your publisher get that amount of money. 197 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:18,560 Speaker 2: A publisher meeting with your songwriting people, and if you 198 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 2: put AI in the mix, and they don't pay anybody 199 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:23,559 Speaker 2: for it because at the moment you can't get it, 200 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:25,600 Speaker 2: and I think it stays this way. You can't get 201 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 2: a copyright in material that's not created by a human. 202 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 2: Then the digital service provider could put that in the 203 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 2: fraction and instead of paying out one hundred percent of 204 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:39,840 Speaker 2: the money, only pay ninety because if ten percent was AI, 205 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:43,199 Speaker 2: they just keep it. And obviously that's going to get 206 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 2: negotiated by the labels and the publishers because they're already 207 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:50,200 Speaker 2: all over it, and so I think it comes manageable. 208 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:52,560 Speaker 2: A little harder is how do you know whether it's 209 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:55,280 Speaker 2: AI or not? Because sometimes it's certainly in the future 210 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 2: it's going to be hard to tell. In theory it 211 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 2: ought to be identified in some way down the road. 212 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 2: There's no requirement to do that now, but I think 213 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:04,760 Speaker 2: there should be. 214 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 1: Wilby right back with Strictly Business. Welcome back to Strictly 215 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 1: Business with Donald Passman, author of All You Need to 216 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:26,160 Speaker 1: Know About the Music Business. Last fall, AI is all 217 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:30,280 Speaker 1: that anyone was talking about after chat GBT launched. Then 218 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:32,840 Speaker 1: it was all anybody was talking about during Grammy Week, 219 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:37,200 Speaker 1: and somewhere in that time David Ghetto released the song 220 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:39,720 Speaker 1: that where he well actually he didn't release it, but 221 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:43,760 Speaker 1: he recorded and played live a song where he had 222 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 1: generated a fake eminem That immediately got me thinking about 223 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:51,800 Speaker 1: what all of this means, who gets paid, who gets 224 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 1: credit all those things, and what is even more fascinating. 225 00:12:56,520 --> 00:12:59,720 Speaker 1: And I learned this in the conversation with the Intellectual 226 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:03,600 Speaker 1: Price party attorney. I mentioned you can't copyright the sound 227 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:08,400 Speaker 1: of a human voice. So what actually is being is 228 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 1: the copyrighted, copyrighted material here, if it's artificially generated, And 229 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 1: where I've landed is that it is the recording that 230 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:25,239 Speaker 1: is ingested by AI. You know, the material, the copyrighted 231 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:29,480 Speaker 1: material that is used to train AI is where the 232 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:31,520 Speaker 1: violation occurs. Is that accurate? 233 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 2: That is accurate in the sense that it's ongoing litigation. 234 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:40,200 Speaker 2: Getty Images filed exactly that case, both in the US 235 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 2: and the UK, claiming that you know it was an 236 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:46,200 Speaker 2: infringement to use their material to do it. There are 237 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 2: also other rights under state law, for example, that you 238 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:56,520 Speaker 2: can't use somebody else's name, likeness, or arguably voice without 239 00:13:56,559 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 2: their consent, And that's that's another way, but that there 240 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:04,000 Speaker 2: would be approach, but that's under state law. I think 241 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 2: there's some talk of making it a federal law, but 242 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:08,640 Speaker 2: I don't know the status of that if anything. 243 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:11,760 Speaker 1: And that's only the law in certain states. 244 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:14,720 Speaker 2: Right, yes, correct, And they're not all consistent. 245 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:17,720 Speaker 1: Either, right because and I don't actually know what. 246 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 2: And it's also I think the European Union has a 247 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 2: privacy Act as. 248 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 1: Well, right because I don't actually know what Universal cited 249 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 1: when they had ghost writers Drake and weekend sampling song 250 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 1: down they wouldn't tell me so, but in the past 251 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:40,440 Speaker 1: sound alikes were legally defeated by Tom Waits and Bette 252 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:45,280 Speaker 1: Midler and someone else, but that was under false advertising. 253 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 1: So it's it's very interesting to me that the way 254 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:52,960 Speaker 1: that the legal the legal basis for this that's being 255 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 1: used is not really about the sound of a voice. 256 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:58,240 Speaker 1: I mean, although name and likeness would. 257 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:04,320 Speaker 2: Be yes, name and likeness would be and you can't 258 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:08,360 Speaker 2: represent that it is the actual artist. You'd have to 259 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 2: but if it's identified as AI, it may not be 260 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:16,320 Speaker 2: a misrepresentation there. But there are you know, there are 261 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:20,880 Speaker 2: you know? And also contractually, all of the labels are 262 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 2: dealing with the digital service provider, so as a practical matter, 263 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:25,120 Speaker 2: it can get solved that way too. 264 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 1: Do you think we'll be at a functional point where 265 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:33,640 Speaker 1: people can do that, where you know, somebody could release of, 266 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:36,320 Speaker 1: you know, a song with a fake Mick Jagger singing 267 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 1: or something like that, or you know, AI generated Mick 268 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:41,680 Speaker 1: Jaggers singing. Do you think we'll be at that point 269 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:44,640 Speaker 1: within the next six months, year, five years. 270 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:47,320 Speaker 2: Well, I think we're already at the point where people 271 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:49,720 Speaker 2: could do it. You mean, do I think there'll be 272 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 2: a mechanism place to do it? Well, I think you'd 273 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:54,880 Speaker 2: have to clear it. I mean, I think you'd have 274 00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 2: to go to them and see if this is okay 275 00:15:57,240 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 2: and if they want to endorse it, and probably pay 276 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:02,480 Speaker 2: them something for it. But I think I don't see 277 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 2: a blanket thing happening like that because I think that people, 278 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 2: you know, artists want to control how their voices used 279 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 2: and how it's presented, and so I don't see it happening, 280 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:15,920 Speaker 2: you know, like you can go in and get it 281 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:17,520 Speaker 2: pre cleared. I think you'd have to do it. In 282 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:18,240 Speaker 2: every instance. 283 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:22,160 Speaker 1: In your book, you're really quite bullish about streaming and 284 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:24,960 Speaker 1: what it's done for the music industry, And I mean, 285 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:28,600 Speaker 1: there's no question that it's single handed, well practically single 286 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 1: handedly saved the music business. You know, once Spotify launched 287 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 1: in the US, things really started turning around. I'm not 288 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:40,600 Speaker 1: sure artists really feel that way as much, because I 289 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:43,560 Speaker 1: was speaking with a fairly prominent artist just a couple 290 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 1: of weeks ago who said he felt that it the 291 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 1: new streaming laws because artists and songwriters make so much 292 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 1: less from streaming than they did from CDs, and I mean, yes, 293 00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:01,120 Speaker 1: everyone does. He feels like art really got sort of 294 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:04,399 Speaker 1: left out in the cold of it. With streaming leveling 295 00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 1: off and that being a concern, what's going to keep 296 00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:10,439 Speaker 1: the music industry growing? 297 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:14,720 Speaker 2: Well, it is leveling off in some territories but not all, 298 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:18,480 Speaker 2: and subscription prices are going to go up, which is 299 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 2: going to, you know, be a huge boon to everybody. 300 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:24,480 Speaker 2: There's no question that you get paid better if you're 301 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 2: selling an equivalent number of CDs. But you know, those 302 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 2: days are gone, so we're in the new reality. And 303 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:37,439 Speaker 2: if you you know, when piracy hit, we were, you know, 304 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:41,680 Speaker 2: sixteen years on either declining or flat and at half 305 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:45,119 Speaker 2: of what it was when the CDs were booming. But 306 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 2: one of the things I talk about is that in 307 00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:51,719 Speaker 2: the heyday of CDs. The average CD buyer, you know, 308 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 2: spent you know, forty to fifty bucks forty some odd 309 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 2: bucks per year on CDs. But if you think about 310 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:02,680 Speaker 2: what you pay for subscriptions, even adjusting for inflation, it's 311 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 2: much more than that. And also we're monetizing people who 312 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:08,359 Speaker 2: would have never gone to a record store. Most people 313 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:10,360 Speaker 2: stop going to record stores when they were in their 314 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:15,200 Speaker 2: early twenties. Now you're selling streaming to little bitty kids, 315 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:19,119 Speaker 2: and you're selling and preteens, and you're selling streaming to 316 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:21,920 Speaker 2: you know, old people that want to listen to Frank Sinatra. 317 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:27,120 Speaker 2: So we have a much broader pool and I am 318 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:28,240 Speaker 2: optimistic about it. 319 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 1: So do you think it'll still keep growing? You know, 320 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:35,439 Speaker 1: maybe not at this rate, but growing significantly in the 321 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:38,680 Speaker 1: US and the UK and Germany and you know places 322 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:42,480 Speaker 1: that aren't Asia and you know, parts of Africa that 323 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 1: a lot of the record companies seem to be seeing 324 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:50,480 Speaker 1: as having vast potential for growth. But streaming subscription costs 325 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:52,720 Speaker 1: a fraction of what it costs in the Western world. 326 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 2: Correct, I don't know. I mean, once you reach maturity 327 00:18:56,920 --> 00:18:59,720 Speaker 2: of streaming and then you've sort of hit the saturation, 328 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 2: what happened in Scandinavia. It definitely goes flat in terms 329 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 2: of the money, assuming you don't lose people, and it 330 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:10,320 Speaker 2: stays about the same. But I do think that prices 331 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:13,199 Speaker 2: are going to go up and that is going to 332 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 2: be significant in terms of how much more money comes in. 333 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:19,920 Speaker 1: The majors are talking about different streaming models, their experimenting 334 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:26,920 Speaker 1: on different payment models with virtually every service. Artists seem 335 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 1: to be getting a slightly better cut. But one of 336 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 1: the ironies to me has always been the fact that 337 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:35,200 Speaker 1: the songwriter is at the bottom of the equation in streaming. 338 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:38,479 Speaker 1: And I mean, you've got nothing without a song. Do 339 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:42,119 Speaker 1: you see solutions? Do you see ways that songwriters can 340 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 1: be better compensated by streaming? 341 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:46,960 Speaker 2: Well, the songwriter has just got a very good increase 342 00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:50,879 Speaker 2: thanks to a ruling by the Copyright Royalty Board, and 343 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:52,920 Speaker 2: it's going to go up even more over the next 344 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:59,119 Speaker 2: few years. And it is I'm going to get this 345 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 2: wrong because I don't have the numbers, so don't quote 346 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:05,720 Speaker 2: me directly on it, but it is close to, if 347 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 2: not more than, proportionate to what they were getting on CDs, 348 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:11,919 Speaker 2: and it may even be more than that. And so 349 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:15,480 Speaker 2: you know, depending on how the calculations work. They're actually 350 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:18,960 Speaker 2: getting paid pretty well in the streaming world to my understanding. 351 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:23,639 Speaker 2: Now again I don't have the exact figures, but but 352 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:27,040 Speaker 2: it's it's it's not bad. 353 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:31,160 Speaker 1: Well, it's getting better, you know. I mean, I still 354 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 1: hear from artists all the time how just how they 355 00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:38,280 Speaker 1: don't make money from recorded music anymore. And you know, 356 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 1: that's pretty, you know, a pretty incontestable fact. Do you 357 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:45,359 Speaker 1: know they've kind of accepted that, like, Okay, I'm going 358 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:47,199 Speaker 1: to make this album, but I'm not going to make 359 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 1: any money from it, but it'll bring people to shows. 360 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:51,679 Speaker 1: Do you think that's the model going forward or do 361 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 1: you think it's possible for them to be better compensated. 362 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:58,840 Speaker 2: I think, well, I think that first of all, with 363 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:01,639 Speaker 2: any new technology, and again I have a section in 364 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:04,480 Speaker 2: my book on what happens when there's new technologies. The 365 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:06,640 Speaker 2: artists are always paid less than they should be when 366 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:09,200 Speaker 2: it first comes on board. And then as time goes 367 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:11,520 Speaker 2: on and their deals expire and they negotiate, they get 368 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:14,040 Speaker 2: bigger and bigger pieces of it. So that's one part 369 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:19,120 Speaker 2: of the equation that artists will do better, will they 370 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:21,399 Speaker 2: you know, it is not as big a piece of 371 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:24,399 Speaker 2: their income as it was historically and may not be 372 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 2: in the future, although I don't know for sure, and 373 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:30,119 Speaker 2: it depends on the artists. I mean, a touring artist 374 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:32,439 Speaker 2: is going to make far more on touring and merchandise, 375 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 2: and a well known artist will have to make a 376 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:39,200 Speaker 2: lot on endorsements and branding, and it will be much 377 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 2: more than they can make on recorded music, even the 378 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:46,240 Speaker 2: most successful people. And so it isn't the same big 379 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 2: percentage of their income stream that it was before, but 380 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:54,840 Speaker 2: it is something that drives the marketing and drives awareness 381 00:21:54,880 --> 00:22:01,040 Speaker 2: and drives consumer you know, interest and them, and so 382 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:03,760 Speaker 2: it's an important part of the equation, even if it's 383 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:06,479 Speaker 2: not the same dollars proportionally that it might have been 384 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 2: in the past. 385 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:13,280 Speaker 1: On a related topic, looking at the music catalog boom 386 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:16,320 Speaker 1: of the last few years, do you feel like it's over? 387 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:19,159 Speaker 1: Do you feel like it's just crested and you know 388 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:22,639 Speaker 1: it'll continue, but at not the rate that it has been. 389 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:25,880 Speaker 2: Well by rate, what do you mean? Do you mean 390 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 2: prices or do you mean the number of transactions? 391 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:32,120 Speaker 1: Well? Both, really, I mean it seems like prices are 392 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 1: prices seem to have topped off don't they? 393 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:38,159 Speaker 2: Yes, And I think rising interest rates have something to 394 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:41,119 Speaker 2: do with that too. But there's still a lot of 395 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 2: money chasing catalogs, and also a lot of the premier 396 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 2: catalogs that are already even sold, so to some degree 397 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:54,560 Speaker 2: that affects the marketplace, but I wouldn't I'm starting to 398 00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:57,040 Speaker 2: see a softening in the market in the terms of multiples, 399 00:22:57,080 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 2: but with really good catalogs, you can still get an 400 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:01,879 Speaker 2: extremely good price. 401 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:05,439 Speaker 1: Have you done any of those deals? 402 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:09,280 Speaker 2: I have, although I mostly try to talk people out 403 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 2: of them, I think, and again I have a section 404 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:17,800 Speaker 2: of the book on this in the sense that you know, 405 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:21,639 Speaker 2: most everybody historically who soldar catalog has regretted it that 406 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 2: you need to do an exercise that goes like this, 407 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:28,720 Speaker 2: take the amount of money you're getting, pay your expenses, 408 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:31,800 Speaker 2: pay your taxes, and look at what you have left 409 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:34,239 Speaker 2: and invest it and can you make as much as 410 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:36,920 Speaker 2: the catalog was making? And do you have the upside 411 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:41,600 Speaker 2: the catalog might have? And so for younger people, I've 412 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:44,119 Speaker 2: been pretty successful in talking them out of it. I 413 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:47,240 Speaker 2: do think it makes sense for older people if, for example, 414 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:49,640 Speaker 2: their heirs don't know what to do with the catalog 415 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:52,280 Speaker 2: or they'll kill each other trying to deal with it. 416 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:56,439 Speaker 2: Or if you you know, having a state tax problem 417 00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:58,480 Speaker 2: because you're going to have to pay state tax on 418 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:00,720 Speaker 2: the value of the catalog and you may not have 419 00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:02,639 Speaker 2: the cash to do it and be forced into a 420 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:06,160 Speaker 2: fire sale. And obviously there's always the issue of someone 421 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:09,080 Speaker 2: who desperately needs money. I may have to sell all 422 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:12,960 Speaker 2: or part of it, but for the most part, I 423 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 2: and it's not particularly my self interest, by the way, 424 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:17,960 Speaker 2: I'd like to make a large fee for selling a catalog, 425 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:20,879 Speaker 2: but it's but I think it's the right thing for 426 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:21,520 Speaker 2: most people. 427 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:25,119 Speaker 1: One line that has always stuck with me is, you know, 428 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 1: when you're talking about assessing managers, and you know you've 429 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:30,240 Speaker 1: got the powerful manager at the at the high end, 430 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,640 Speaker 1: you know who like might look after you as well 431 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:37,080 Speaker 1: as Beyonce and Taylor Swift or whoever they have, or 432 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:39,520 Speaker 1: you've got the young manager who will kill for you. 433 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:42,479 Speaker 1: What are the I mean, what are the factors that 434 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:45,760 Speaker 1: you think would help determine one or the other or 435 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:46,920 Speaker 1: whether you go in the middle. 436 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:51,880 Speaker 2: Well, if you're talking you're talking about a new artist now. 437 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:54,200 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, yeah, promising new artist. 438 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:57,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, with a new artist. Look, if you can get 439 00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:00,919 Speaker 2: a powerful manager who really is, you know, committed to 440 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:03,360 Speaker 2: you and really season you. That's a great thing to do. 441 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:05,960 Speaker 2: But a lot of times that's not the case. They 442 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 2: just don't have the time for you, or they're not 443 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:11,480 Speaker 2: going to put any energy or effort into you unless 444 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 2: they have somebody young in their company that happens to 445 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:16,480 Speaker 2: be excited about you. It's good to have the cloud 446 00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:19,399 Speaker 2: of a powerful manager, but if that's not an option, 447 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,840 Speaker 2: or you know, somebody young and hungry and you know 448 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:26,960 Speaker 2: who's going to kill for you and spend every waking 449 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,119 Speaker 2: hour worrying about you, is a really good alternative. You know, 450 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,200 Speaker 2: every manager started out like that. They all started out 451 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:36,560 Speaker 2: with no cloud and brand new, and then you know, 452 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:39,320 Speaker 2: got an artist and work themselves to death and got 453 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:41,640 Speaker 2: the artist successful, and then all of a sudden they're 454 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 2: a powerful manager. 455 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:46,680 Speaker 1: Okay, you see you. Also, I was surprised at how 456 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:50,639 Speaker 1: many of the deals that you talked about, management deals 457 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:54,199 Speaker 1: in particular, are actually handshake deals. And you didn't you 458 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:57,480 Speaker 1: didn't seem particularly bothered by them. But they can work 459 00:25:57,520 --> 00:25:59,200 Speaker 1: out disastrously right. 460 00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:04,560 Speaker 2: Well, well, what do you mean by disastrously? All? Right? 461 00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:09,640 Speaker 1: For one example, the Smiths never signed a management deal 462 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 1: with anyone. They had very few contracts of any kind, 463 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 1: and their drummer ended up suing the two main songwriters 464 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 1: multiple times for six figures, getting more money, and it 465 00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:24,359 Speaker 1: kept being decided in his favor because nothing was written down. 466 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:27,960 Speaker 2: Well, that wouldn't be a management agreement, that would be 467 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:30,400 Speaker 2: an interpose, that would be an eternal agreement. 468 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:35,400 Speaker 1: Couldn't something similar. Couldn't a manager pull a similar attempt, 469 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 1: a similar kind of move. 470 00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:41,720 Speaker 2: Yes, but the artist is far better off without a 471 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:45,480 Speaker 2: written contract because it's not clear what the terms are. 472 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:48,120 Speaker 2: And by the way, handshake doesn't necessarily mean you don't 473 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:50,560 Speaker 2: negotiate the terms. It just means that you could leave 474 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,639 Speaker 2: anytime you want. We usually at least do an email 475 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:56,399 Speaker 2: exchange saying here's the terms of what the deal means. 476 00:26:57,280 --> 00:26:59,160 Speaker 2: The term is such that we can leave any time 477 00:26:59,200 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 2: we want. 478 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 1: Okay, So it's not like nothing is written. 479 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:06,040 Speaker 2: Down correct, not usually sometimes, but not usually. 480 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:08,400 Speaker 1: Is that email legally binding? 481 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:09,080 Speaker 2: Yeah? 482 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:17,119 Speaker 1: Okay, all right. I will conclude with probably the biggest question, 483 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:21,000 Speaker 1: what's the biggest threat to the music industry right now? 484 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:31,919 Speaker 2: Oh? Interesting, I probably have to go with the AI 485 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:35,680 Speaker 2: and how that's going to play out. And I don't 486 00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:38,199 Speaker 2: think it's an existential threat. I think it's something that 487 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:41,480 Speaker 2: we're going to work out and manage. But overall, I 488 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:44,159 Speaker 2: think we're in pretty good shape. Let me answer it 489 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:47,639 Speaker 2: a different way, though. The biggest problem in the industry, 490 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:51,320 Speaker 2: if I can slightly change your question, is how do 491 00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:53,880 Speaker 2: you break through the noise? There's over one hundred thousand 492 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:59,439 Speaker 2: tracks uploaded every day every day, and so how do 493 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:01,960 Speaker 2: you ever get heard? How do you ever get above 494 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:04,000 Speaker 2: the noise? How do you ever get anybody to know 495 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:08,119 Speaker 2: about your music? That's the biggest thing that's going on, 496 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:12,200 Speaker 2: and weirdly it's to the artist's advantage because the ones 497 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:14,359 Speaker 2: that figure out how to break through and get traction 498 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:17,760 Speaker 2: suddenly have multiple companies chasing them, and they get deals 499 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 2: they could have never gotten in the past, and such 500 00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:26,120 Speaker 2: as ownership of their masters or share of profits and 501 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:30,639 Speaker 2: huge advances, and so it's sort of shifted. That's the 502 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,240 Speaker 2: reason artists now have more bargaining power than they've ever 503 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:37,320 Speaker 2: had before. 504 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 1: And a lot more artists now do seem to own 505 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:40,840 Speaker 1: their masters, because I mean, thanks in no small part 506 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:44,040 Speaker 1: to Taylor Swift, they've become aware of the value of it. 507 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:45,640 Speaker 1: And even that it's an. 508 00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:49,880 Speaker 2: Option exactly exactly. You need a fair amount of cloud 509 00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:51,280 Speaker 2: to get them right. 510 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:55,760 Speaker 1: Is there anything you would like to address or anything 511 00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:57,800 Speaker 1: in the book you'd like to talk about, because every 512 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:00,720 Speaker 1: single thing that we've talked about in this conversation is 513 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:05,720 Speaker 1: explored in great detail and with considerable intelligence and insight 514 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:08,360 Speaker 1: in the book. Are there any other things I haven't 515 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:10,680 Speaker 1: asked you about that you would like to address or 516 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 1: would like to just put out there now? 517 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:16,880 Speaker 2: Jim, these are great questions and very insightful and thoughtful 518 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:19,960 Speaker 2: and smart, and I appreciate your taking the time to 519 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:20,280 Speaker 2: do it. 520 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:30,640 Speaker 1: You've been listening to Strictly Business with Donald Passman. Please 521 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:37,440 Speaker 1: check back next week.