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Speaker 3: this sixth of June, the eightieth anniversary of the D
Speaker 3: Day invasions, President Biden, speaking earlier today from France, you
Speaker 3: heard and saw the remarks on Bloomberg. He did not
Speaker 3: mention Vladimir Putin, and he did not mention Donald Trump,
Speaker 3: not by name. But his remarks at the American Cemetery
Speaker 3: earlier Colville Sumer were a remarkable ceremony unfolded with American
Speaker 3: veterans a century old sitting in wheelchairs in the first
Speaker 3: part of the day today, wrapped in blankets. It was
Speaker 3: cold outside to see President Biden, to see President Macron,
Speaker 3: to see the King, and President Biden did have a
Speaker 3: message to those who were not named.
Speaker 4: Here's what he said.
Speaker 5: Mark's unique ability to bring countries together is a undeniable
Speaker 5: source of our strength and our power. Isolationism was not
Speaker 5: the answer eighty years ago and is not the answer today.
Speaker 3: Remarkable Outside of the speech, and we can talk about this,
Speaker 3: we will with Garrick Graff, we will with our panel.
Speaker 3: But to see the ceremony unfold, with the President of
Speaker 3: the United States, the Commander in Chief there in person,
Speaker 3: the President of France.
Speaker 4: Bestowing a great.
Speaker 3: Honor of French legion upon each veteran who is there.
Speaker 3: They introduced themselves to each individual and kissed and hugged
Speaker 3: him in a truly emotional and moving moment. And I'm
Speaker 3: glad that we can have Garrick Graft with us. As
Speaker 3: I mentioned, he's an historian and journalist and has been
Speaker 3: reporting in Washington for a long time. But his new
Speaker 3: book Today, When the Sea Came Alive, an oral history
Speaker 3: of D Day, is why we are together. And Garrett,
Speaker 3: it's great to have you. I welcome you back to Bloomberg.
Speaker 3: Before we get into some of the stories that you heard,
Speaker 3: absolutely the significance of this moment, as I just described it.
Speaker 3: To see these two presidents with one hundred year old veterans,
Speaker 3: many of whom are marking the last anniversary of D
Speaker 3: Day that they will have the opportunity to with only
Speaker 3: a couple of thousand left on this planet. How important
Speaker 3: was that ceremony this morning.
Speaker 6: I think that that's the point and undertone of all
Speaker 6: of this week's remembrances of D Day is that this
Speaker 6: is a moment when we're also marking the final passing
Speaker 6: of that greatest generation, the generation that won World War Two,
Speaker 6: saved Western democracy for us, and that this is, you know,
Speaker 6: a moment where I think, in ways that you were
Speaker 6: just talking about, you know, we're going to reflect a lot,
Speaker 6: not just on their legacy and what they did for
Speaker 6: freedom and democracy eighty years ago, but just how willing
Speaker 6: we are in this generation to fight for freedom and
Speaker 6: democracy in the way that they did on D Day
Speaker 6: June sixth, nineteen forty four. You know, D Day has
Speaker 6: this important part in our national cultural mythology because of
Speaker 6: what it represents. You know, it is the most audacious
Speaker 6: human endeavor ever undertaken before or since a million Allied
Speaker 6: personnel in motion across the English Channel on D Day
Speaker 6: and you know, seven thousand ships, the largest armada ever assembled,
Speaker 6: three thousand airplanes carrying paratroopers into Normandy, and it was
Speaker 6: a It was an invasion launched, unlike almost every invasion
Speaker 6: in human military history, not to seize or conquer, but
Speaker 6: to liberate. You know, the cause that those men fought
Speaker 6: for on the beaches in Normandy, in the hedgerows of
Speaker 6: Normandy eighty years ago was among the most noble humans
Speaker 6: have ever fought.
Speaker 4: Really well put.
Speaker 3: You spoke with many of these veterans to create your book,
Speaker 3: and we read yesterday in Stars and Stripescaret of a
Speaker 3: one hundre a two year old veteran Robert PARASHITTI seventy
Speaker 3: fourth reunion that I'm looking at a photograph here now
Speaker 3: on this eightieth he died on his way there, reinforcing.
Speaker 4: The importance of this moment.
Speaker 6: Yeah, great Britain believes you know that there are just
Speaker 6: six living British D Day veterans left alive, you know,
Speaker 6: just to give you sort of some sense of how
Speaker 6: small this pool really is now and that was really
Speaker 6: my goal in trying to do this book at this
Speaker 6: moment in history, which was you know, we have at
Speaker 6: this time effectively every first person memory of D Day
Speaker 6: we will ever have. You know, this is a moment
Speaker 6: when D Day is moving from living memory into permanent history.
Speaker 6: And so my goal with this book was to try
Speaker 6: to assemble the story of D Day told in the
Speaker 6: voices of those who participated in it in the first person.
Speaker 6: And so, you know, for the I collected about five
Speaker 6: thousand oral histories for this, mostly archival, and the finished
Speaker 6: book has about seven hundred voices, trying to tell that huge, audacious,
Speaker 6: courageous story in the voices in the first person as
Speaker 6: they lived it. And I think one of the real
Speaker 6: strengths that you get in oral history that makes it
Speaker 6: unique as a form is I think when you read
Speaker 6: and write narrative history, and I've written plenty of narrative
Speaker 6: history myself, there's a tendency to make it seem you know, neater, cleaner, simpler,
Speaker 6: more linear, more predetermined than any of the participants at
Speaker 6: the time actually felt. And so you know, we view
Speaker 6: D Day as this historic triumph, I mean, one of
Speaker 6: the greatest days, not just of the twentieth century, but
Speaker 6: of all of Western democracy.
Speaker 2: When you talk to.
Speaker 6: You know, when you read the letters of the soldiers
Speaker 6: crossing the English Channel on June fifth, that they're writing
Speaker 6: in their bunks aboard those landing craft. When you listen
Speaker 6: to the oral histories of the paratroopers flying into Normandy,
Speaker 6: there's not a lot of sense of courage and heroism
Speaker 6: and bravery among them. You know, they are, they're young,
Speaker 6: They're impossibly young, you know, seventeen, eighteen, nineteen years old,
Speaker 6: you know, led by grizzled twenty one year old sergeants,
Speaker 6: and you know they are you know, they're scared, they're lonely.
Speaker 6: They're wondering whether they have what it takes to make
Speaker 6: it in combat, whether they're going to let down their friends,
Speaker 6: their comrades that they've trained alongside for so long for
Speaker 6: this very moment, and they're wondering, of course, whether they're
Speaker 6: going to live to see the end of the next day.
Speaker 6: And of course, for about four thousand of the Allied troops,
Speaker 6: they didn't.
Speaker 3: You know, it's interesting we talk today about the great
Speaker 3: success and scale of this operation, and the scale of
Speaker 3: your oral history here is appropriately massive. To reflect the
Speaker 3: story in its truest sense, but this could have gone
Speaker 3: more than one way. And I'm always compelled by the
Speaker 3: story of also I think of a lonely, if not
Speaker 3: also scared Dwight Eisenhower who wrote a second letter and
Speaker 3: filed it away in case the invasion was a failure.
Speaker 3: Doesn't that tell us a bit about the humility of
Speaker 3: the moment as well?
Speaker 6: Yeah, And you know, in some ways, the most dramatic
Speaker 6: chapter of this book is not the combat. It's the
Speaker 6: decision that Ike and the other supreme Allied commanders have
Speaker 6: to make in you know, over that weekend June third June,
Speaker 6: fourth June fifth, of whether to launch the invasion at all.
Speaker 6: They have this incredibly narrow window of just three days
Speaker 6: at the start of June, when the tides and the
Speaker 6: moon align, and they have you know, these ships already loaded,
Speaker 6: already in motion. You know, all of the Allied forces
Speaker 6: have now been briefed on what their missions are, what
Speaker 6: the target is. You know, the secrecy is at risk,
Speaker 6: and they know if those if the weather doesn't cooperate
Speaker 6: in the notoriously uncooperative English Channel, they might have to
Speaker 6: postpone the invasion for two weeks or even four weeks
Speaker 6: to wait for the moon, and that would mean bringing
Speaker 6: all the ships back, unloading all of them, putting all
Speaker 6: of the secrecy of this operation at risk, not to
Speaker 6: mention whether there would be enough time on the European
Speaker 6: continent to carry out the build up necess before winter.
Speaker 6: And so you know, that weekend, of course, as everyone knows,
Speaker 6: the English Channel is hit by one of the worst
Speaker 6: storms in its history. June fifth is sort of near
Speaker 6: hurricane force winds and gales up and down the English Channel,
Speaker 6: and the American meteorologists that weekend, the Allied meteorologists detect
Speaker 6: just the tiniest possible window for an invasion to actually
Speaker 6: happen on June sixth, after they'd already delayed it from
Speaker 6: June fifth, which was the original target date. And what's amazing,
Speaker 6: of course, is you learn this story is that the
Speaker 6: Germans didn't have that meteorology as advanced, and so the
Speaker 6: Germans don't seize this opportunity. They don't have their air
Speaker 6: reconnaissance out, they don't have their naval reconnaissance out, and
Speaker 6: Irwin Rommel, the German commander, actually looks at the weather says,
Speaker 6: no way, the invasion's coming this week, and takes off
Speaker 6: for Berlin to go back and celebrate his wife's birthday
Speaker 6: and meet with Adolf Hitler. And so the title of
Speaker 6: this book, When the Sea Came Alive, is actually from
Speaker 6: a German soldier on Omaha Each waking up in his
Speaker 6: bunker that Tuesday morning looking out at the horizon totally
Speaker 6: totally surprised to find it packed with Allied ships.
Speaker 4: What a vision you paint for us?
Speaker 3: You talk to Private Frank Pallace Garrett, Regiment S two,
Speaker 3: Section five hundred and six Parachute Regiment on hundred and
Speaker 3: first Airborne, This quote stands out to us. I was
Speaker 3: just a young kid like the rest of them. He
Speaker 3: told you, try to free the world from the Nazis.
Speaker 3: We did that, but we still haven't learned a damn thing.
Speaker 3: That sticks with me. I'm sure it's stuck with you.
Speaker 3: And as we listen to the President today speak in Normandy,
Speaker 3: knowing that there were lawmakers there by the way, the
Speaker 3: Speaker of the House did not attend. Having listened to
Speaker 3: this six month argument overfunding for our allies in Ukraine,
Speaker 3: it's hard to ignore the politics of the moment.
Speaker 4: Were they appropriate?
Speaker 6: Yeah? And I think the answer has to be yes.
Speaker 6: I mean this is the legacy that this generation fought for.
Speaker 6: You know, Ronald Reagan did so much to lionize and
Speaker 6: valorize and sort of reframe the Battle of D Day
Speaker 6: with that famous speech at Point to Hawk in nineteen
Speaker 6: eighty four, and he said, in one of his speeches,
Speaker 6: you know, democracy is only ever one generation away from extinction.
Speaker 6: And I think that that is one of the messages
Speaker 6: we really have to wrestle with as a country, as
Speaker 6: a West right now as we watch, you know, a
Speaker 6: significant D Day anniversary carried out at a time when
Speaker 6: and democracy has probably never seemed as fragile at any
Speaker 6: other D Day anniversary. This is you know, there's a
Speaker 6: land war going on in Europe. You know, democracy is
Speaker 6: on the ballot. The President and his allies will say
Speaker 6: here at home this fall. And you know, I think
Speaker 6: that there's a real question of is America is the West?
Speaker 6: Are the allies from World War Two as willing to
Speaker 6: fight for democracy now as that generation was then, Well.
Speaker 4: That's a big question.
Speaker 3: You essentially asked that in a great ed a guest
Speaker 3: essay in The New York Times, Garrett writes, across the
Speaker 3: next few months, we'll be hearing a lot of argument
Speaker 3: about what America is and isn't. There's a simpler answer
Speaker 3: to that question that many would like to admit. What
Speaker 3: we'll fight for is who we are, and as we
Speaker 3: look ahead, we must decide if we're still as willing
Speaker 3: to to fight for democracy as the generation to storm
Speaker 3: Normandy was eighty years ago. I only have a minute left,
Speaker 3: Garrett Well, Joe Biden, channel Ronald Reagan and the boys
Speaker 3: of Point to Hawk when he speaks tomorrow.
Speaker 6: I think his hope is to do that, you know.
Speaker 6: I think the White House sees this as an incredibly
Speaker 6: important moment for setting the stakes of you know, not
Speaker 6: just our national politics, but the geopolitics of the world
Speaker 6: at this moment. Yeah, and what better way to kick
Speaker 6: that off by honoring, you know, that small group of
Speaker 6: living survivors who made it back to Normandy to remind
Speaker 6: us of the human cost of defending democracy.
Speaker 3: I'm going to congratulate you on this important project, Garrett.
Speaker 3: I'd love for you to come and see us sometime
Speaker 3: in the studio. Garrett Graff, author of When the Sea
Speaker 3: Came Alive and Oral History of D Day, Thank you
Speaker 3: for being part of our coverage.
Speaker 1: Sing to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast kens Just
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Speaker 3: And our eyes of course overseas today with President Biden
Speaker 3: delivering the address we've been talking about from Normandy on
Speaker 3: this eightieth anniversary of D Day, it was a spectacular ceremony.
Speaker 3: Though politics were, of course part of the President's speech.
Speaker 3: He did not mention Vladimir Putin or Donald Trump, but
Speaker 3: the message was clear as he called on the world
Speaker 3: to preserve democracy. We're living in a time when democracy
Speaker 3: is more at risk across the world at any point
Speaker 3: since the end of World War Two, he said, knowing
Speaker 3: of course, that Joe Biden is going to be meeting
Speaker 3: on the sidelines with our European allies. President Manuel Macrone
Speaker 3: was part of the ceremony this morning, as was King Charles.
Speaker 3: And it's onto the G seven next week with Israel
Speaker 3: of course in the air, not just Ukraine as the
Speaker 3: President talked about today in this speech, but the potential
Speaker 3: for a cease fire something we've been talking about now
Speaker 3: for almost one week. It was last Friday that President
Speaker 3: Biden held forth that the White House rolled out the
Speaker 3: three phased plan, and since then it's been a war
Speaker 3: of words between the White House and Benjamin Etna, who
Speaker 3: has made clear that Israel is not prepared to sign
Speaker 3: a permanent ceasefire until Hamas has destroyed. Hamas is not
Speaker 3: willing to sign a ceasefire unless it's permanent. And so
Speaker 3: we still sit here today, with the help of Sealia Mosen,
Speaker 3: the host of of course, the Big Take DC podcast.
Speaker 3: That's the topic of the show on the podcast that
Speaker 3: drops today, Sleya with us at the table on Bloomberg
Speaker 3: TV and Radio. It's great to see you. This is
Speaker 3: one of these stories you cover that's fluid. It's going
Speaker 3: to be different in an hour maybe, but the slow
Speaker 3: drip of news has been really something considering that the
Speaker 3: President stuck as now on that level last week.
Speaker 7: Absolutely, it's been just six days. I've been really curious
Speaker 7: as to why Biden chose that day, that moment to
Speaker 7: make this announcement. It's easy to say that, oh, he's
Speaker 7: looking for political points domestically here in the US, but
Speaker 7: we also have to remember that every time he speaks
Speaker 7: about the conflict between Israel Hamas, no one's ever happy
Speaker 7: with what he says. So there's more to it than
Speaker 7: what we think.
Speaker 4: Well, look, that's true.
Speaker 3: He's got folks on both ends of the political spectrum
Speaker 3: doubting him right now, and he's hearing a lot from
Speaker 3: progressive Democratic voters who don't like what's been happening and
Speaker 3: are waiting for a cease fire announcement. So how do
Speaker 3: we judge how far Joe Biden went beyond his conversations
Speaker 3: with Benjamin netnya who in rolling out this comprehensive plan
Speaker 3: that apparently Netanya who was not prepared to sign.
Speaker 7: Yeah. Absolutely, Look, the world is watching. Everyone is wondering
Speaker 7: how Biden is able to wield his influence, wield the
Speaker 7: power that he has, and the friendship that he has
Speaker 7: with Beebe, who he's known for more than three d
Speaker 7: since he was a junior senator in his forties. We
Speaker 7: are seeing some surprise from the Israeli Prime minister. Some
Speaker 7: of that has to do with how the Israeli government
Speaker 7: is made up. It's a parliamentary system and there's a
Speaker 7: lot of in the coalition. The ruling coalition. There is
Speaker 7: strife over this deal, whether there should be a ceasefire,
Speaker 7: what kind of deal they want, So the contours of
Speaker 7: it are muddied just within Israel, and then you're trying
Speaker 7: to go and talk abroad and openly at the same
Speaker 7: time you're dealing with Hamas and what they want out
Speaker 7: of this deal.
Speaker 3: Remarkable, and Bill Burns, the CIA director, is dispatched back
Speaker 3: to the region, which gave some folks hope that tends
Speaker 3: to lead to things. When Bill Burns is at the table,
Speaker 3: what are you hearing though about the timeline, the amount
Speaker 3: of patience that the White House.
Speaker 4: Is going to have.
Speaker 7: It sounds like the ball is in Nyahu's court. Hamas
Speaker 7: has made some comments showing their hand a little bit
Speaker 7: that there are contours of this dealer are parts here
Speaker 7: that do make sense to them. Biden is in Europe
Speaker 7: right now. He goes back to Europe next week for
Speaker 7: the G seven. He's trying to project strength, but we
Speaker 7: really just need to see what Natanyahu wants to do.
Speaker 7: So far, the comments that he's made kind of show
Speaker 7: that he is more interested in a prolonged conflict, but
Speaker 7: he hasn't stated unequivocally what he wants to do next.
Speaker 4: How are you getting to this on the podcast?
Speaker 7: We're getting to this with We spoke to the Israel
Speaker 7: bureau chief for Bloomberg White House, corresponding to Justin Sink
Speaker 7: trying to find out what is going on inside the
Speaker 7: White House, inside the Israeli Parliament, the Kanesse, and why
Speaker 7: there are so many domestic concerns on each side that
Speaker 7: spill out into this global conflict.
Speaker 4: Fantastic.
Speaker 3: I'm looking forward to this and you've got sync on
Speaker 3: a microphone. You're going to have to tell me how
Speaker 3: you pull that off. Later, Salia Molson with.
Speaker 4: The Great Big Take DC podcast. It drops today.
Speaker 3: Subscribe on Apple, Spotify and all the same places you
Speaker 3: do your podcast stuff.
Speaker 4: Se Leiah, thank you.
Speaker 3: We have this conversation every week to remind you when
Speaker 3: the show drops. And I want to add the voice
Speaker 3: now of Jane Harmon. What a great opportunity to focus
Speaker 3: on geopolitics on this eightieth anniversary of the D Day invasion,
Speaker 3: Chair of the Commission on the National Defense Strategy, President
Speaker 3: Emerita for the Woodrow Wilson Center. Jane, it's great to
Speaker 3: see you. Thank you so much for joining us here.
Speaker 3: We're talking about Israel. We're talking about Ukraine, both of
Speaker 3: which are in the air. As the President addressed this
Speaker 3: very important ceremony earlier today.
Speaker 4: The politics of the moment are hard to ignore, aren't.
Speaker 8: They very hard to ignore. But let's not lose what
Speaker 8: happened earlier today. Let's just linger there for one minute.
Speaker 8: It was so moving to see the President of France
Speaker 8: present the Lejondonnero Awards to the surviving soldiers, who not
Speaker 8: only stood haltingly, but one of them even saluted. I
Speaker 8: can't tell you how many people must have shed tears
Speaker 8: over that. It was a moment of unity, and it
Speaker 8: was a salute to American leadership with partners and allies.
Speaker 8: Let's not forget that Ukraine was part of the President's speech,
Speaker 8: and boy, oh boy, his commitments to stick with in
Speaker 8: Ukraine mattered a lot onto Israel. I think the US
Speaker 8: is trying to lead. I think the deal is a
Speaker 8: good deal. I don't know whether Biden mentioned it too
Speaker 8: soon or not, but I think today was also the
Speaker 8: deadline that Benny Gantz, a member of the War Coalition
Speaker 8: but not a member of BB Netanyahu's party, said was
Speaker 8: his deadline for pulling out of the coalition, I'm guessing,
Speaker 8: and I don't think we have to talk about it
Speaker 8: live on TV. I'm guessing that a lot is going
Speaker 8: on behind the scenes to try to figure out a
Speaker 8: way forward where BB achieves two things that he desperately wants.
Speaker 8: One is staying in power. We can decide whether we
Speaker 8: love that or not, but it's up to Israel. And
Speaker 8: the other is staying out of jail. And if those
Speaker 8: things can be resolved, then maybe we can make progress.
Speaker 8: The hostages are dying, and the hostages are also the
Speaker 8: only leverage that Hamas leadership has at the moment, which
Speaker 8: is why they're not giving them up.
Speaker 9: But we have more.
Speaker 8: Leverage, and I'm glad Bill Burns is there, and I'm
Speaker 8: glad he's in Doha and other capitals urging that the
Speaker 8: political leadership of Hamas be told that they have to
Speaker 8: put pressure on their folks to end this and take
Speaker 8: this deal and then hopefully the similar things happening inside
Speaker 8: Israel and US leadership has to stay.
Speaker 3: Gee, I'm so happy that you slowed us down to
Speaker 3: recall that moment we talked about it earlier. To see
Speaker 3: the legion of honor bestowed on these eleven US veterans
Speaker 3: with the Commander in Chief, with President Biden there, with
Speaker 3: President Emmanuel Macrone. They kissed and hugged individually each of
Speaker 3: those men, and it was an incredibly moving moment. The
Speaker 3: President went on to say, we're living in a time
Speaker 3: when democracy is more at risk across the world than
Speaker 3: at any point since the end of World War Two?
Speaker 4: Do you believe that?
Speaker 9: Yes, and we have to fight for it.
Speaker 8: There is a clash of values, if you want to
Speaker 8: call what Russia and China believe in values.
Speaker 9: But there's a clash of values.
Speaker 8: US values plus partners and allies prevailed in nineteen forty
Speaker 8: five eighty years ago, or just before nineteen forty five
Speaker 8: eighty years ago, and that is our best weapon, our values.
Speaker 8: And I thought Biden was pitch perfect this morning.
Speaker 9: I really did.
Speaker 8: And I don't mean this to be a partisan comment,
Speaker 8: because if we lose our freedom, what is it exactly
Speaker 8: that America is two and a half years from now,
Speaker 8: our declaration of independence will be two hundred and fifty
Speaker 8: years old. I was recently in Philadelphia and I saw
Speaker 8: the little house where Thomas Jefferson wrote it.
Speaker 9: That moves me.
Speaker 8: I'm the daughter of a refugee from Nazi Germany, and
Speaker 8: my family found its way here and I had every
Speaker 8: opportunity here, and I would never have had those opportunities
Speaker 8: had they moved to Russia or China.
Speaker 9: No way.
Speaker 4: It's great to hear you talk today, Jane.
Speaker 3: The President's going to try, as we keep hearing in
Speaker 3: the White Houses not being quiet about this, to channel
Speaker 3: Ronald Reagan tomorrow and his boys of point to hawk speech.
Speaker 3: The President will be doing his own tomorrow. What does
Speaker 3: it say about where we are now when the Democratic
Speaker 3: president is trying to channel this Republican from the nineteen eighties.
Speaker 8: Well, I have called myself a Reagan Democrat in the
Speaker 8: sense that Reagan's peace through Strength agenda really resonates, certainly
Speaker 8: resonates with me, and I think Biden is right to
Speaker 8: remember that time. If you've been to Plantuhak and you
Speaker 8: see where these brave men skilled sheer cliffs with fire
Speaker 8: coming down, you will remember that there was air cover.
Speaker 8: I'm mentioning this for a reason.
Speaker 9: Air cover. I don't think they would have prevailed without it.
Speaker 9: And that is why.
Speaker 8: Think Ukraine we have taken way too long to provide
Speaker 8: adequate airpower to Ukraine I'm glad we're finally moving to
Speaker 8: do so. But Ukraine needs everything it can get from
Speaker 8: the West to win this challenge against Russia. And if
Speaker 8: they don't win this challenge against Russia, think what we
Speaker 8: went through in nineteen on d Day eighty years ago.
Speaker 8: We may have to muster all that as we, as
Speaker 8: a partner in NATO, defend our freedom. So, I mean,
Speaker 8: there's just so much on the table right now, and
Speaker 8: it will be great to see the President at Plantu
Speaker 8: Hak and to hear a message that's bipartisan. It's not
Speaker 8: a dirty word, bipartisan unity.
Speaker 3: It's not a dirty word on this program. Mitch McConnell
Speaker 3: was writing in The New York Times Jane, it should
Speaker 3: not take another catastrophic attack like Pearl Harbor to wake
Speaker 3: today's isolationists from the delusion that regional conflicts have no
Speaker 3: consequences from the world's most powerful and prosperous nation.
Speaker 4: Who was he talking about.
Speaker 8: Gee, I can't imagine. Who do you think he was
Speaker 8: talking about? Unfortunately, in our country now, there is an
Speaker 8: alliance on both ends of the spectrum of people who
Speaker 8: really don't don't get it that we can't build walls
Speaker 8: high enough to keep this country out of the world,
Speaker 8: nor would we want to. We're the beacon of freedom.
Speaker 8: The whole American dream is based on integrating with the world,
Speaker 8: and our role again since D Day or on D
Speaker 8: Day and actually before that, has been to lead.
Speaker 9: And that's what Mitch McConnell is saying.
Speaker 8: And you know, bipartisan leadership channeling both Biden and Reagan
Speaker 8: will be very necessary right now, and I hope we
Speaker 8: rise to the moment.
Speaker 3: Well, I'm glad you could talk with us today, Jane,
Speaker 3: on this eightieth anniversary. Isn't that remarkable of the D
Speaker 3: Day invasion? Jane Harmon, Chair of the Commission on the
Speaker 3: National Defense Strategy, President Emerita Woodrow Wilson Center, and of
Speaker 3: course former Congresswoman.
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch
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Speaker 3: On an important day in politics across the ocean, as
Speaker 3: President Biden spoke from the eightieth anniversary of the D
Speaker 3: Day landing spoke from Normandy earlier today with a call
Speaker 3: after greeting veterans in a beautiful ceremony that took place earlier,
Speaker 3: a call to this global audience to preserve democracy.
Speaker 4: Here's part of his speech.
Speaker 5: Mark's unique ability to bring countries together is undeniable source
Speaker 5: of our strength and our power. Isolationism was not the
Speaker 5: answer eighty years ago and is not the answer.
Speaker 3: Today with multiple audiences. As we assemble our panel now,
Speaker 3: Genie Shanzano is with us, Bloomberg Politics contributor and of
Speaker 3: course Democratic analysts, joined today by Republican strategists Chape and
Speaker 3: Faye Actum.
Speaker 4: It's good to have you both, your Genie.
Speaker 3: This was a moment for Joe Biden, without mentioning the
Speaker 3: names Trump or putin, to deliver a poignant message. He's
Speaker 3: going to speak again tomorrow. But there were some lawmakers
Speaker 3: who were there today, not including the Speaker of the House,
Speaker 3: who were somewhat responsible for slow walking funding for Ukraine,
Speaker 3: which he talked about a lot. The cause in Ukraine,
Speaker 3: the cause against authoritarianism. Was this the right stage for
Speaker 3: that message?
Speaker 10: It absolutely was? And can I just say I'm on
Speaker 10: pins and needles about these astronauts docking potentially eighty years
Speaker 10: after D Day, it's very exciting and so glad you're
Speaker 10: covering it, and you know it was I thought a
Speaker 10: very moving ceremony. It was the right message. He did
Speaker 10: not mention Trump or putin by name, although you didn't
Speaker 10: take much to figure out who he was talking about.
Speaker 10: But the message is critically important, and that is the
Speaker 10: message that isolationism makes us weak. And it is exactly
Speaker 10: juxtaposed to the message that Donald Trump campaigned on in
Speaker 10: twenty sixteen, twenty twenty and again now, which is this
Speaker 10: whole notion of make America great. He has made isolationism
Speaker 10: fashionable again, if you will, and attractive to voters. And
Speaker 10: it is Joe Biden's job as president to use this
Speaker 10: as a teaching moment to explain to people, most of us,
Speaker 10: not around eighty years ago, why we cannot isolate from
Speaker 10: the rest of the world if we want to be
Speaker 10: strong ourselves and to save democracy. So absolutely the right message,
Speaker 10: and hopefully he's able to hit it on the park
Speaker 10: again tomorrow as he has these two other big events
Speaker 10: chape It.
Speaker 3: I don't know the politics of all these veterans who
Speaker 3: were actually on the stage behind Joe Biden. The staging
Speaker 3: included many veterans in their late nineties, one hundred years old,
Speaker 3: many in wheelchairs this morning listening to the president, the
Speaker 3: political nature of this speech cannot be ignored.
Speaker 4: Was it appropriate?
Speaker 2: So he's the.
Speaker 11: President, he could talk about whatever he wants whenever, And
Speaker 11: like you said, I don't think you can separate the
Speaker 11: politics from that particular speech. And I think the president,
Speaker 11: you know, he's smart to be doing what he's doing
Speaker 11: for his side. Right in his campaign, veterans and military
Speaker 11: issues usually skew more conservative or at least right of center,
Speaker 11: and it's a voting group that President Biden needs. As
Speaker 11: far as the messaging and the substance of the message,
Speaker 11: you know, I don't know that that's appropriate, and I
Speaker 11: wouldn't necessarily call it isolationism, But there were no new
Speaker 11: wars that began under President Trump, and the world was
Speaker 11: just safer under.
Speaker 4: His presidency than it is now. There are various reasons
Speaker 4: for that, but.
Speaker 11: Joe Biden is president, and the buck stops there. The
Speaker 11: world is less safe now than it was under President Trump.
Speaker 11: So you could call it isolationism, you could call it
Speaker 11: any number of things.
Speaker 12: But it was.
Speaker 11: But what it was was that we were safer America
Speaker 11: was safe for, the world was safe for. There were
Speaker 11: fewer wars under President Trump. And that's just a fact.
Speaker 11: And we could argue about.
Speaker 3: Why that is so, is the fact, Yeah, and we're
Speaker 3: not here to argue. But I would point you to
Speaker 3: Mitch McConnell's outbed in the New York Times this morning.
Speaker 3: Pretty fascinating to see the Republican leader of the Senate. Quote,
Speaker 3: it should not take another catastrophic attack like Pearl Harbor
Speaker 3: to wake today's isolationists from the delusion that regional conflicts
Speaker 3: have no consequences for the world's most powerful and prosperous
Speaker 3: nation unquote. Is there some wisdom to that chapin?
Speaker 12: Of course?
Speaker 11: And again I think what you're seeing is there is
Speaker 11: sort of I wouldn't call it, you know, civil war
Speaker 11: like the other side does. But you are seeing some
Speaker 11: tension within the Republican Party. You have a the younger
Speaker 11: generation is very much aligned with what President Trump is
Speaker 11: saying about foreign policy and wars, and Mitchell Center McConnell,
Speaker 11: who I have the utmost respect for for many reasons,
Speaker 11: is part of the old Guard, right. They are sort
Speaker 11: of the nation building camp of two generations or a
Speaker 11: generation from to go. I do respect his opinion, and
Speaker 11: of course, I you know, I think isolationism is the
Speaker 11: wrong way to describe it. And I do think isolationism
Speaker 11: is a problem. But you know, supporting our allies, uh,
Speaker 11: you know, doesn't always mean, you know, getting into wars.
Speaker 11: You know, you see the conflict with with is between
Speaker 11: Israel and Hamas right now. I mean, you know, Israel
Speaker 11: is our ally and I'm not sure we're seeing like
Speaker 11: full backing of them in this particular war. So these
Speaker 11: things are very complicated. And again, you know, under President Trump,
Speaker 11: and we can debate it, we could talk about why,
Speaker 11: you know, what the reasons were. But under President Trump,
Speaker 11: you know, these things didn't.
Speaker 4: Happen as often right around the world.
Speaker 3: Chape and Faith, it's great to have you back, Republican strategist,
Speaker 3: managing director at Actum, and of course Jeanie Shanz, no
Speaker 3: Bloomberg Politics contributor and also a Senior Democracy Fellow with
Speaker 3: the Center for the Study of the Presidency in Congress.
Speaker 3: Great conversation today on Balance of Power. As always, you're
Speaker 3: listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast.
Speaker 1: Kench just Live weekdays at noon Eastern on Applecarplay and then.
Speaker 2: Roun Oo with the Bloomberg Business App.
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Speaker 1: flagship New York station. Just say Alexa, play Bloomberg eleven thirty.
Speaker 3: Hundreds of millions of dollars now being invested in the
Speaker 3: downtown d C.
Speaker 4: Area.
Speaker 3: If you've been to the nation's capital, maybe you've seen
Speaker 3: a Wizard's or a Caps game. All of this is
Speaker 3: due in part to a deal that fell apart. Ted Leonsis,
Speaker 3: the chair and CEO of Monumental Sports and Entertainment, had
Speaker 3: a two billion dollar deal in principle, a handshake deal
Speaker 3: to bring the company across the river to Virginia. It
Speaker 3: fell apart, and he is now in his second chapter
Speaker 3: here in Washington, d C. And a deal with the
Speaker 3: mayor and the city council worth a half a billion
Speaker 3: dollars to reinvest, reimagine, and recreate the downtown area. We
Speaker 3: sat down earlier here on Bloomberg and asked him about
Speaker 3: the politics that he blamed for killing that deal in Virginia.
Speaker 13: Here he is, I never signed anything. That's the most
Speaker 13: remarkable thing in it was a handshake. Yeah, it was
Speaker 13: a handshake deal. And you know, Washington d C. I
Speaker 13: came here from Lowell, Massachusetts on a Greyhound bus and
Speaker 13: the mid seventies, fell in love with the city, went
Speaker 13: to Georgetown University, and then we stood up AOL and
Speaker 13: built really the commercialization of the internet not too far
Speaker 13: away in Virginia.
Speaker 12: And I've always looked at this.
Speaker 13: Community, the DMV if you will, being the District Maryland
Speaker 13: in Virginia. It's the most important market. It's ten million people.
Speaker 13: It's the third or fourth largest DMA in the country.
Speaker 13: And so you know DC. We need a strong DC,
Speaker 13: We need a strong downtown. And we owned the building,
Speaker 13: we owned the teams, we own the network, the studios here,
Speaker 13: and so why you've made a big commitment, and we'll
Speaker 13: work with the mayor and help to reimagine what should
Speaker 13: the next version of downtown rebirth look like.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I want to ask you about what that looks like.
Speaker 4: But did Governor.
Speaker 3: Glenn Youngkin get a little over his skis when he
Speaker 3: shook your hand on that deal?
Speaker 4: What happened?
Speaker 13: I think the governor is a really great executive, and
Speaker 13: he dealt with what basically everyone is dealing with, a
Speaker 13: real bifurcated view of what is best for people and
Speaker 13: when I said Paula Tooks took over, this was a great,
Speaker 13: great business deal. And we were told that your business
Speaker 13: isn't wanted here. And so that was done not through
Speaker 13: where we were being located in Alexandria, but by the
Speaker 13: political machine in Richmond. And you know, you get to
Speaker 13: the point where you say, there's no place like home.
Speaker 13: And we work to deal with the mayor and the
Speaker 13: city council, and you know, we're a part of that team.
Speaker 13: And the country needs a functioning, strong, safe, clean growth mindset.
Speaker 12: Washington, d C.
Speaker 13: Where a bell weather, if you will, for the entire country.
Speaker 13: And we fell behind a bit pre pandemic, during the
Speaker 13: pandemic post pandemic, and I'm really glad that there's been
Speaker 13: this reckoning, if you will, and it's happening in all
Speaker 13: major metro areas and now we can move forward in
Speaker 13: coordination with business and the philanthropy community. We have a
Speaker 13: unique set of issues here because of the federal government overlay,
Speaker 13: and you know, just every day we have to deal
Speaker 13: with things that connect Virginia and Maryland in DC, like
Speaker 13: the metro, like the track effect that needs to be mitigated,
Speaker 13: like the infrastructure dollars that are being spent on roads
Speaker 13: and road closures and so all of that. I think
Speaker 13: we can play a big social responsibility role in helping
Speaker 13: them make things better.
Speaker 3: Well, you're going to play a pivotal role in the
Speaker 3: future of the city in the downtown area. I heard
Speaker 3: you mentioned the other day you might be interested in,
Speaker 3: speaking of talking like a politician an honorary title vice
Speaker 3: Mayor of the d DC Downtown DC, because that's kind
Speaker 3: of what you are. You joined city officials on a
Speaker 3: trip to Las Vegas to a retail conference a couple
Speaker 3: of weeks ago to bring business here. You're representing the
Speaker 3: city and what is truly a balance of politics and business.
Speaker 2: Isn't it.
Speaker 13: Yes, you may not know this, but I was once
Speaker 13: mayor elected mayor of my town in Florida.
Speaker 12: I serve for six years as mayor.
Speaker 13: Every time I see many of Bloomberg, we choke and
Speaker 13: call each other honorable. So you should pay a little
Speaker 13: more respect.
Speaker 12: To me there, mister mayor.
Speaker 4: Appreciate it.
Speaker 13: Yes, I understand the role that we can play in
Speaker 13: attracting businesses. And frankly, I said, I was surprised at
Speaker 13: you'd always heard how well managed the state of Virginia
Speaker 13: is it has low taxes. It's a great state. But
Speaker 13: I found it easier.
Speaker 12: To negotiate and work with.
Speaker 13: The City of DC than I did with the State
Speaker 13: of Virginia. And so yeah, I'm going to go out
Speaker 13: and be an evangelist for the city, for the mayor,
Speaker 13: for the city council. I want a higher quality of
Speaker 13: life for our employees. We bring two and a half
Speaker 13: million people into the city every year for our concerts,
Speaker 13: for NCAA tournaments, for the Capitals, for the Wizards, for
Speaker 13: the Mystics. We have back to back Mystics games WNBA
Speaker 13: tonight and tomorrow night. There'll be thirty thousand people or
Speaker 13: so in those two nights coming into DC, and most
Speaker 13: of them come in from Maryland in Virginia, and they'll
Speaker 13: spend money in DC pay tax dollars here.
Speaker 3: Well, people are talking about the Caitlin Clark effects in
Speaker 3: the local media today. You're right, You've got four games
Speaker 3: now for the WNBA this season. I believe tonight tomorrow
Speaker 3: are going to be huge at the Capitol One Arena.
Speaker 3: You've also said that you want DC to be the
Speaker 3: world capital of women's sports. You've described this as a
Speaker 3: growth stock how do you make that happen.
Speaker 13: Well, I think what we'll look to do is we're
Speaker 13: second longest tenured owners of a WNBA team, and Mystics
Speaker 13: are a growing business. I'm chairman of the Media Committee
Speaker 13: at the NBA. I know what's going to happen with
Speaker 13: the WNBA media rights. It will be a very nice
Speaker 13: increase there. We own our network. I know what the
Speaker 13: ratings are locally for women's sports, and so what I'd
Speaker 13: like to do is make a monumental w Right. We
Speaker 13: own multiple teams and venues and a network.
Speaker 12: Let's use the Mystic says.
Speaker 13: Kind of the foundation. And I would love one day
Speaker 13: to have a women's hockey team here. I would love
Speaker 13: one day to have women's volleyball professional. We should make
Speaker 13: d C the professional women's sports capital. We have a
Speaker 13: very broad base of ownership executives Sheila Johnson, Lareene Powell, jobs,
Speaker 13: Michelle Freeman.
Speaker 12: We have the gravitas for d C through.
Speaker 13: Our WNBA Bona FIDE's and through our ownership group.
Speaker 12: Yeah, We'll make those.
Speaker 13: Investments and I think you'll see DC emerging as that capital.
Speaker 3: Well, TV is a big deal with an important story
Speaker 3: right now about NBA rights. You can speak directly to this,
Speaker 3: or maybe I should say TV is not as big
Speaker 3: a deal as it used to be because we're looking
Speaker 3: at a proposal now it's Amazon, NBC, ESPN, A big
Speaker 3: chunk of the.
Speaker 4: Games will be streamed exclusively.
Speaker 3: And I wonder if the owners are going to sign
Speaker 3: off on this and what you see as the future here.
Speaker 13: You know, nothing's been announced yet, There's been lots of
Speaker 13: reports on it.
Speaker 12: What I'll say is that the.
Speaker 13: Convening power of sports, both bricks and mortar, bringing people
Speaker 13: into an arena and then being able to watch the
Speaker 13: game on multiple devices, your television, your iPad, your iPhone
Speaker 13: on a global basis.
Speaker 12: We've proven how valuable.
Speaker 13: Our ip is, our content is, and my expectation is
Speaker 13: that this deal will be very very strong for the players,
Speaker 13: for the owners, for the league itself, and it allows
Speaker 13: us to continue to invest because the game has never
Speaker 13: been better, both hockey and basketball, the play offs, the competition,
Speaker 13: women's basketball, their entertainment value, the competitiveness is off the chart,
Speaker 13: and so we now have to take more control and
Speaker 13: be digital first companies. That's essentially what the movement is. Yes,
Speaker 13: Terrestrial is going to play a huge part of it.
Speaker 13: You know, I look at Bloomberg. I've spent a couple
Speaker 13: hours here today. You were a forerunner in it. You
Speaker 13: built the platform. It was digitally based. You bought print properties,
Speaker 13: you have television properties.
Speaker 12: You stream, you have private networks. Well, that's what we
Speaker 12: should to be everywhere, is what you're saying at TV.
Speaker 4: But what's the endgame? Is it direct to consumer?
Speaker 3: A company like Monumental subscribes to me, say ten years
Speaker 3: from now, I'm at home watching a Wizard's game on
Speaker 3: my headset gambling at the same time.
Speaker 4: Is that the future?
Speaker 13: We want to have deep engagement relationships with consumers however
Speaker 13: they want, and I do believe that subscriptions I look
Speaker 13: at it more like a software company.
Speaker 12: We have a.
Speaker 13: Software services business model where we get a subscriber. Our
Speaker 13: season ticket holders, as an example, they were new in
Speaker 13: a bad year eighty eighty five percent, in good years
Speaker 13: ninety nine percent. Someone has to die if you will,
Speaker 13: and you know, for the family to lose their season tickets,
Speaker 13: and many cases here, no, no, no, my dad left
Speaker 13: it to me. I'm stepping into issues, right and so
Speaker 13: subscriptions business is great, and if you build a big
Speaker 13: audience the people value by paying. That's the difference than
Speaker 13: like a website. Right, people are paying to come to
Speaker 13: the games. People are paying to watch these performers. Then
Speaker 13: we license our content to terrestrial, to cable companies, and
Speaker 13: then more and more we're saying, well, if you don't
Speaker 13: have cable, if you don't subscribe to a service, we
Speaker 13: need to get it to you directly.
Speaker 12: Well, that's just like a subscription, sure, And so we've.
Speaker 13: Made a big investment in Monumental. We own our network,
Speaker 13: the Monumental Sports Network. It's available on cable, on satellite.
Speaker 13: We've done deals with Amazon and Prime. We're doing deals
Speaker 13: where we get subscribers directly. And I think we want
Speaker 13: to control our IP and be able to distribute it
Speaker 13: for and wide.
Speaker 4: It sounds endless if you do it right when it
Speaker 4: comes to.
Speaker 13: Well, I think partnerships lead to prosperity. And these are
Speaker 13: some of the greatest companies, media companies and tech companies.
Speaker 12: And that's been the new phenomenon.
Speaker 13: Now that the Microsoft's and the alphabets, Googles, the Amazons,
Speaker 13: the Apples, they are placing a lot of value in
Speaker 13: the IP itself.
Speaker 12: As are the TV people.
Speaker 13: Right, although I don't think the Comcast NBC views itself
Speaker 13: as a TV company anymore, Right, It's a tech company,
Speaker 13: a big distribution platforms.
Speaker 3: You couldn't have imagined this when you were watching Celtics
Speaker 3: games with rabbit ears at Lowell High School.
Speaker 12: No, this is.
Speaker 4: Another universe that we're in now.
Speaker 3: But you couldn't have imagined having a second chance to
Speaker 3: revitalize the nation's capital. We hear a lot about crime,
Speaker 3: the balance between safety, innovation and openness. How do you
Speaker 3: make it safe enough for someone to want to invest,
Speaker 3: but free enough for.
Speaker 4: People to have a good time.
Speaker 13: Well, the city has to continue to find ways to
Speaker 13: make fair and equitable laws that service businesses and the
Speaker 13: populace and the voters.
Speaker 3: Obviously, so business and politics meet again.
Speaker 12: Very much so.
Speaker 13: And I think that was the big breakthrough over the
Speaker 13: last six months that people understand that if the federal
Speaker 13: office buildings aren't open and people are taking metro or
Speaker 13: driving and parking and coming into the city and having
Speaker 13: lunch in the city and buying apartments renting apartments in
Speaker 13: the city, that's a bad thing for the local economy.
Speaker 13: And if we warrant here those two and a half
Speaker 13: million people who come in. They'll come in, arrive at
Speaker 13: five o'clock today, they'll go drink, they'll go eat at
Speaker 13: the local restaurants, they'll take metro. Metro ridership needs to
Speaker 13: be increased so that it can do longer hours and
Speaker 13: make more investments in technology and safety and security. So
Speaker 13: I think what's happened is there's been awakening that everything
Speaker 13: is connected. That Metro, that the police, that the traffic mitigation,
Speaker 13: that the infrastructure investments and roads, all of that comes
Speaker 13: together to make a higher quality of life. We have
Speaker 13: to integrate it and not take anything for granted that.
Speaker 13: You know, this a very competitive world. Maryland Virginia want
Speaker 13: to steal DC's companies. DC wants to bring those companies
Speaker 13: into back into downtown, and so you know, you get
Speaker 13: judged by what kind of results that you get. And
Speaker 13: I think d C now is on a rebirth. We're
Speaker 13: seeing crime go down, we're seeing Metro coming up, We're
Speaker 13: seeing tourism having record numbers.
Speaker 12: And tourism we have to.
Speaker 13: Find ways to get the tourists to downtown to eat
Speaker 13: and dine because right now there seems to be almost
Speaker 13: like a fence, you know, that keeps them on the.
Speaker 3: Other constitution Avenue Barrier exactly.
Speaker 4: It's a real thing. When are you going to buy
Speaker 4: the NATS?
Speaker 13: I would very much like to buy the NATS and
Speaker 13: be very respectful to the process and the family. I
Speaker 13: think it makes a lot of sense in this super
Speaker 13: city vernacular to have one platform, year round teams and
Speaker 13: to have the size and scale so that we can
Speaker 13: compete in terms of payroll, in terms of talent, in
Speaker 13: terms of infrastructure with Los Angeles, with New York.
Speaker 12: That you know, just have bigger markets.
Speaker 13: And so we're seeing in media, We're seeing in most
Speaker 13: industries that scale really matters, and you know, you have
Speaker 13: to have a growth mindset.
Speaker 12: And so for us, because we own.
Speaker 13: The Winter Sports if you will, and we own the
Speaker 13: network and we own the venues, adding that team I
Speaker 13: think is really really important to the business. But I
Speaker 13: want to win championships, and the way that you win
Speaker 13: championships is by having great farm teams and great infrastructure
Speaker 13: and great coaches. Takes money, and then to have the
Speaker 13: patients to rebuild the teams, and the Nationals are.
Speaker 12: Well on their way to rebuilding a great team.
Speaker 4: Is it right on a regional TV deal.
Speaker 12: Right now?
Speaker 2: Well?
Speaker 13: I think it's a whole new game in local TV.
Speaker 13: I don't know what will happen in baseball. I know
Speaker 13: that I know that we've controlled our destiny locally by
Speaker 13: buying our regional sports network. Now you know, it's no
Speaker 13: no longer at NBC. It's a monumental sports network. There's
Speaker 13: the Masson network. It's it's on its own, if you will.
Speaker 13: It's not part of a bigger property, and it carries
Speaker 13: the two baseball teams. There's a lot of turmoil going
Speaker 13: on in that industry. We've inoculated ourselves and our fans
Speaker 13: to that. We've just opened the most advanced technology invested
Speaker 13: almost sixty million dollars in a digital first real studio.
Speaker 12: It's nicer and bigger than this one.
Speaker 3: Wait, I need to come over.
Speaker 12: You should. That's right, We've raised the bar for you.
Speaker 13: I think you'll go and come back and say, how
Speaker 13: come they can do that.
Speaker 4: Let's do the next one of these in your studio.
Speaker 12: I'd love to do that.
Speaker 3: We're invested here, obviously, and we're here to stay in
Speaker 3: downtown Washington, and.
Speaker 4: I'm glad we can talk about it. We'd like to
Speaker 4: continue following your story here.
Speaker 13: It is time honored to come here, and it's amazing
Speaker 13: the investments that you've made downtown right on New York Avenue,
Speaker 13: and we're almost neighbors, so love to come see you.
Speaker 3: Ted leonsis the CEO of Monumental Sports and Entertainment, talking
Speaker 3: with us Today in Washington exclusively on.
Speaker 4: Bloomberg TV and Radio.
Speaker 9: I don't know.
Speaker 3: It's a pretty nice studio. It's like the Starship Enterprise
Speaker 3: in here. Thanks for listening to the Balance of Power podcast.
Speaker 3: Make sure to subscribe if you haven't already, at Apple, Spotify,
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