1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:08,119 Speaker 1: Al Zone Media. Hello, and welcome to ache it up 2 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:12,920 Speaker 1: in here. I'm Andrew Sage also known as Andrewism, and 3 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:19,520 Speaker 1: I'm joined once again by that's a cue. 4 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:24,959 Speaker 2: Mia Wong girl, who was really really the first time 5 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 2: was like I Am not going to miss my cue 6 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:30,280 Speaker 2: this time. And then this time I was like, oh, 7 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:32,160 Speaker 2: I'm waiting for the queue, and then it was like shit, 8 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:35,080 Speaker 2: that's the cue. And it took my brain like several 9 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 2: seconds to be like, oh no, it would be very 10 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 2: funny if the editors just edited out the pause so 11 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:43,519 Speaker 2: everyone has no idea what I'm talking about. 12 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:49,320 Speaker 1: That's that would be hilarious actually, But there was unaware 13 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:52,519 Speaker 1: that was like a ten second pause before me I 14 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:52,919 Speaker 1: came in. 15 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 2: No, really truly, this is Mia on like three hours 16 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 2: of sleep brain. I was like, oh, yeah, right, the 17 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:05,479 Speaker 2: key is going to come and then it things going 18 00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:08,120 Speaker 2: great for be A Wong, the other person who's on 19 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:11,440 Speaker 2: this show. You know who I am. Statistically, if you're 20 00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 2: listening to the show, who of. 21 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:18,240 Speaker 1: Course, I mean speaking of seconds. By the way, in 22 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:22,840 Speaker 1: those ten seconds that you were waiting for your queue 23 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 1: that had already passed, hundreds of people were born, you know, 24 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 1: every second somewhere someone is being born. Like other animals, 25 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:39,120 Speaker 1: humans have this tendency to multiply. But should they That 26 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:41,839 Speaker 1: is the question of the day. This is the last 27 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:46,319 Speaker 1: episode I was on. We spoke about the worries surrounding populasia. 28 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 1: You know, whether we have too many people or too 29 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 1: few people. But the question of making people or not 30 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:56,559 Speaker 1: making them has been the subject of a few ideological classes. 31 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:00,200 Speaker 1: There's a whole movement of thinkers who argue that in 32 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 1: new life into the world is a big mistake. These 33 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:07,880 Speaker 1: are the anti natilists. On the other side, you have 34 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:12,360 Speaker 1: those who say that having children is good and essential. 35 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:15,880 Speaker 1: That's the proneat to list cap. So in this episode 36 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:19,200 Speaker 1: will be getting into that tug of war philosophically and 37 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:21,919 Speaker 1: weighing the issues with both. Because I'm not going to 38 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 1: make it a secret, I'm not a fan of either 39 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:27,079 Speaker 1: of them. I don't know, how do you feel about. 40 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, this is the one, the one good Stalin quote. 41 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:30,000 Speaker 2: They're both worse. 42 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:35,800 Speaker 1: So we have to pick among those twos. Let's start 43 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 1: with the anti natilists. What what's the kind of gut 44 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 1: reaction or impression you get from those those folks. 45 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:47,840 Speaker 2: I don't know. I think there's a combination of stuff 46 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 2: that's largely harmless and sometimes is funny, Like you get 47 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:55,760 Speaker 2: protested people holding up signs that are like I didn't 48 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:57,919 Speaker 2: ask to be born or didn't consent to be born, 49 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 2: and it's like sure, but then then there's all people 50 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:02,600 Speaker 2: just do mass you things about it. So it's great, 51 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 2: it's a good time. It's a very normal time for politics. 52 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean when I think of them, 53 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:15,360 Speaker 1: I tend to think cringe and reddit. But they actually 54 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:20,280 Speaker 1: have a philosophy outside of Reddit forums. So, according to 55 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 1: the Internet Encyclopedia Philosophy, anti natialism is the view that 56 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:30,639 Speaker 1: it is either always or usually morally impermissible to brookerate. Now, 57 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 1: most of us grew up with the idea that life 58 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 1: is inherently valuable, right, but anti natilists disagree. They see 59 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 1: life as a buden rather than a gift. Very edgy, 60 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 1: very reddit. But you know, it's something that has been 61 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 1: around since before the Internet. While not himself an anti natalist, 62 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 1: the German philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer, who lived in the nineteenth century, 63 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 1: is taught by some anti natalists as a contributor to 64 00:03:57,040 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 1: their philosophical foundations. In his description of life as constant, 65 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:07,000 Speaker 1: striving frustration and pain. In the twentieth century, the Romanian 66 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 1: writer Emil Choran argued that non existence is the ultimate 67 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 1: form of peace. His philosophical pessimism regarded individual life and 68 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 1: human history as a whole as a record of error, illusion, 69 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:26,920 Speaker 1: and futility. And most famously, South African philosopher David Bennetta 70 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 1: laid out one of the main anti neatilist arguments in 71 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 1: his book Better Never to Have been the harm of 72 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 1: coming into existence. It's a bang aside, though. Now you 73 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 1: can find theoretical contributions to anti natilists thought in Buddhism's 74 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:47,360 Speaker 1: idea that life is suffering, or incidant interpretations of it 75 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:51,359 Speaker 1: rather or incident gnostic traditions that saw the material willed 76 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:55,159 Speaker 1: itself as a kind of cosmic mistake. Now, there are 77 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:57,839 Speaker 1: a lot of reasons that anti natialists put forward for 78 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:03,159 Speaker 1: their stance. There are philanthropic misanthropic arguments an planutialism. You know, 79 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 1: the philanthropic ones focus on harm to the individual who 80 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 1: is brought into existence, while the misanthropic arguments tend to 81 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 1: focus on the harm that new people cause to the will. 82 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 1: So there's the consent argument that Mia would have mentioned. 83 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:19,440 Speaker 1: You know, basically, a child that cannot consent to be inborn, 84 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:21,920 Speaker 1: so by creating them you're forcing them into life. They 85 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:25,599 Speaker 1: didn't ask for a life that will inevitably include suffering. 86 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 1: Another argument is in that sort of negative utilityianism camp. 87 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:34,480 Speaker 1: It's the idea that our moral priority should be reducing suffering, 88 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:38,440 Speaker 1: not increase in happiness. In fact, they don't see the 89 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 1: potential or actuality of pleasure as an offset to suffering 90 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 1: at all. You know, under their view, even a single 91 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 1: unit of suffering is unacceptable, and since every new life 92 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 1: will include suffering, not creating life is the surest way 93 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 1: to reduce it. If Benetta had the famous asymmetry argument, 94 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:02,039 Speaker 1: which is that the presence of pain is bad, the 95 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:04,840 Speaker 1: presence of pleasure is good, but the absence of pain 96 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:08,280 Speaker 1: is always good, even if no one appreciates that good, 97 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:12,239 Speaker 1: and the absence of pleasure isn't bad unless there's someone 98 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:16,040 Speaker 1: missing out. So put simply, according to the argument, by 99 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 1: not having a child, you avoid guaranteed suffering without depriving 100 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 1: any person of joy because that person doesn't exist. So 101 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 1: that equation is probably one of the main pillars, i'd 102 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:42,159 Speaker 1: say of the anti Natilists as a movement. You know, 103 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:44,679 Speaker 1: you might be thinking to yourself, Oh, but I'm glad 104 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:45,280 Speaker 1: to be alive. 105 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 2: No, you're not. 106 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 1: According to according to Bennetta and the anti Natilists, you're 107 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 1: deluded to think so. The Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy calls 108 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 1: it the deluded gladness argument. Basically, your positive view of 109 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 1: your own life is unreliable. But how it argues that 110 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 1: we have cognitive biases like optimism and selective memory and 111 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:14,520 Speaker 1: so on, which distort how viciously we assess our own suffering. 112 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 1: So many good life reports. Even if you think you 113 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 1: have a good life or a decent life, you're deceiving yourself, 114 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 1: according to him. Do you think people are deceiving themselves 115 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 1: when they say that they enjoy their lives? 116 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 2: You know, this entire line of argument is just making 117 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 2: me be like, you need to do less philosophy and 118 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 2: like go outside and live. 119 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:40,240 Speaker 1: Like it's just like, yeah, I mean, I get the 120 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 1: whole thing about you know, all mental bias towards optimism 121 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 1: and that kind of thing, but that doesn't invalidate the 122 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:50,119 Speaker 1: joy of people appreciating their life. 123 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like this. This sounds like the exact script 124 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 2: you get in your head when you're really depressed. It's like, okay, 125 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 2: like have you considered getting your depression managed and getting 126 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 2: help for it instead of like doing philosophy about it. 127 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:11,560 Speaker 1: I feel like you would be an antenage list. Oh 128 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:16,440 Speaker 1: you're yeah, like another thing murders well. 129 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 2: And it's also frustrating because it's like the most compelling 130 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 2: version of this argument is about like this world right 131 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 2: now is absolutely dog shit and I can't justify bringing 132 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:33,559 Speaker 2: someone into it. But that's like too grounded. It's all 133 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 2: these people are like, no, no, no, no, no, Actually, here's 134 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 2: like this philosophy that proves that that life bad. 135 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:43,119 Speaker 1: And it's like, uh, I mean that there are antage 136 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 1: lists arguments that do get into that more grown dated 137 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:48,120 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, definitely, no, yeah, thing you know that they 138 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 1: have one argument about multiplying suffering, right, because every child 139 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 1: you bring into the wool is in just one boos son. 140 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 1: You know, they have the potential to hapture themselves and 141 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 1: grandchildren and so on, multiplying the child answers of pain, disease, loss, 142 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:03,720 Speaker 1: suffering down the generations. 143 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:06,559 Speaker 2: It's like this is like long termism shit it's just like, 144 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:09,960 Speaker 2: instead of like actually analyzing the world, we're going to 145 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:15,960 Speaker 2: build unbelievably complicated and completely meaningless, like abstract models of 146 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:19,959 Speaker 2: it and try to base our things off of that. 147 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:23,840 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I mean it's it's totally ridiculous. Now, I understand. 148 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:26,120 Speaker 1: You know, our Tarck record isn't the best. You know, 149 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:30,960 Speaker 1: they're their plagues and slavery and genocide, environmental destruction, and 150 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:33,200 Speaker 1: some of them, see, well that's the best thing. The 151 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 1: best thing we could do is to voluntarily go extinct, 152 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 1: you know, to step off the stage of the earth. 153 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:41,719 Speaker 1: And that connects with the general misanthropy, and I think 154 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 1: the misanthropic argument that humans are some kind of blight 155 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 1: on the world. Yeah, and they're anti nelists who take 156 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:51,320 Speaker 1: it a step further as well, And they're not just 157 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:55,960 Speaker 1: antilists for humans, they're universal antiseilsts. So they believe that 158 00:09:56,080 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 1: not just human births are problematic, but existence itself, sentient 159 00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 1: beings across the board, human or animal are better off 160 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:05,920 Speaker 1: never being brought into life at all. 161 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 2: Really, truly, at this point, brother, this is a you problem. 162 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:14,679 Speaker 3: You just don't like existing, Like, we can work on that, 163 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 3: but this is not a philosophical think, like you're just depressed, Like, 164 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:20,840 Speaker 3: come on, what are we doing here? 165 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, anthonatialism is making some very heavy claims, 166 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 1: and they're obviously going to be coming to arguments because 167 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:29,719 Speaker 1: people are going to roll over with the kind of 168 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:33,680 Speaker 1: asslutions that it makes. The most intuitive answer I would 169 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 1: give is that yes, life involves suffering, but it also 170 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:42,440 Speaker 1: includes pleasure and joy and creativity and achievements, and for 171 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:47,199 Speaker 1: most people, those positives outweigh the negatives. And if you're 172 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:50,400 Speaker 1: a radical, you recognize that some of the negatives of 173 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 1: life are not inevitable. The famines, the wars, the suffering, 174 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 1: the poverty, it's not inevitable. It's a product of economic 175 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:01,640 Speaker 1: and political systems that we have the power to change. 176 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:05,280 Speaker 1: And yes, there will always be suffering. They may always 177 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:09,800 Speaker 1: be some diseases, there will always be death, right, but 178 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:13,840 Speaker 1: that doesn't mean that existence is worse than non existence. 179 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 1: I'm glad to exist. Me. I feel like you're probably 180 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:19,199 Speaker 1: glad to exist. I'm glad you. 181 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:23,280 Speaker 2: Exist, yeah, most of the time. Like this this is 182 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:26,560 Speaker 2: a distinct improvement for positions I have been in. But like, yeah, 183 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:30,840 Speaker 2: it's nice, yes, you know, like even even in the 184 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:33,200 Speaker 2: middle of like the hell world. 185 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:38,680 Speaker 1: It's nice. Yeah, and yeah, the biases may skew our perspective, 186 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 1: but the fact that we overwhelmingly choose life itself is 187 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 1: a reason too not throw it out. 188 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:46,280 Speaker 2: You know. 189 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:48,319 Speaker 1: Whilst people are given the choice do you want to 190 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:50,760 Speaker 1: live right now? And I mostly people want to say 191 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:54,200 Speaker 1: they're going to live, you know. Yeah, and yes, we 192 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:57,200 Speaker 1: don't consent to be in born, but there are other 193 00:11:57,240 --> 00:11:59,840 Speaker 1: things that we don't consent to that we still benefit from. 194 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 1: You know, in funds, don't consent to be vaccinated, but 195 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 1: it's it's something that benefits them, you know, we educate 196 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:11,840 Speaker 1: in funds, we restrain them from danger. We don't ask 197 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 1: their permission necessarily to do these things, but it's just 198 00:12:14,559 --> 00:12:17,880 Speaker 1: for their well being, for their benefit. And I don't 199 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:20,680 Speaker 1: think while consent is an important factor in the way 200 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 1: that we increaters others, I don't think consent is the 201 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:27,280 Speaker 1: only factor for a framework of determining what is moral 202 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:32,120 Speaker 1: and immoral. You know, you can't use consent to determine 203 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 1: whether it's moral or not to exist. I don't feel 204 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:39,880 Speaker 1: like those two pieces meshed together very well. Yeah. 205 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 2: Well, and also I think like there are so many 206 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 2: other things that we didn't consent to, you know, Like 207 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 2: this is another thing that's talking. It's like we never 208 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:50,760 Speaker 2: consented to die. On a less metaphysical level, I don't know, 209 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:55,400 Speaker 2: like I didn't consent to like to live under this state. Yeah, 210 00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:59,720 Speaker 2: where you know they're like doing helicopter raids on apartment 211 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 2: build things and like dragging naked children screaming away from 212 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 2: their parents in the middle of the night, like you 213 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:07,680 Speaker 2: know that. And that's the thing that you can actually 214 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 2: actively do something about that you didn't consent to, that 215 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:13,880 Speaker 2: is actively harming you and everyone else around you, versus 216 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 2: like being born and making that the thing that you're 217 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 2: doing is like okay, like we didn't get set to 218 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 2: living or capitalism. We didn't. We didn't consent to colonialism, 219 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:24,640 Speaker 2: like we didn't ge set to any of the ship 220 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 2: And that's something you could, you know, make not happen, 221 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:32,319 Speaker 2: versus you being born, which there is nothing you can 222 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 2: do to change the fact that you were born. And 223 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:36,760 Speaker 2: it's like, oh, well, focus the next generation children, Yeah, 224 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 2: you want you want you want to focus on like 225 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 2: reducing the amount of suffering the next generation will create 226 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 2: in the world. Have you considered the climate change? 227 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I also think that on a broader level, right, 228 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:52,679 Speaker 1: I think it's good to be questioned some of the 229 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 1: intuitions that we may have. You know, even there all 230 00:13:56,880 --> 00:13:59,559 Speaker 1: a deepest moral intuitions, I think it's good to maybe 231 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:03,960 Speaker 1: consider them or to be thoughtful about them. But also, 232 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:09,000 Speaker 1: as the Incident Encyclopedia of Philosophy argues, if a theory 233 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 1: implies that the creation of all human life is a 234 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 1: moral mistake, that conclusion itself might be reason to doubt 235 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 1: the theory. This is something called the repugnant conclusion objection, 236 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, because it's repugnant. It's intuitively repugnant 237 00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:30,600 Speaker 1: to most people to hear that existence is a mistake. 238 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 1: Nobody should be alive. 239 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, I was like, what, No, absolutely not, get your 240 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 3: shit worked out exactly. 241 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:41,240 Speaker 2: Betray the logic here. 242 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:43,880 Speaker 1: Not great, Like you were saying, Yeah, there'll be a 243 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 1: lot of things in this in the world that suck 244 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 1: right now that cause suffering, and there's a lot of 245 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:52,960 Speaker 1: present joy is alongside that present suffering. But there's also 246 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 1: the value to be had in that potential joy. You know, 247 00:14:56,800 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 1: the potential possibilities have value. If potential suffering has value, 248 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 1: potential joys should also have value, the potential of creating 249 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 1: a better world, each new child bringing the potential for 250 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 1: greater love, for incredible arts and crafts, for a scientific breakthrough, 251 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:20,480 Speaker 1: is for reshaping the world in a positive direction. You know, 252 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:24,120 Speaker 1: the potential for the unique goods that each individual life 253 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:28,840 Speaker 1: can bring. I believe justifies the risk of suffering because 254 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 1: the world without those future goods would be worse than 255 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:38,600 Speaker 1: a world with them. And yes, humanity can cause harm, 256 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:42,960 Speaker 1: where we are also capable of extraordinary good we can change, 257 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:45,440 Speaker 1: we can reduce suffering over time. New generations are going 258 00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 1: to be part of that solution, I will say, though 259 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:52,280 Speaker 1: two anti nationalists credit. One of the points of the 260 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:57,000 Speaker 1: Internet and Psychlopedia of Philosophy points out is that the 261 00:15:57,040 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 1: debates of what antiinnacialism is theoretical. You know, this is 262 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:07,280 Speaker 1: stuffy philosophers sitting around exchanging notes and writing books. Right, 263 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:10,400 Speaker 1: most of its advocates are not actually putting forward policies 264 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 1: that are restricting people's ability to create life. But the 265 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 1: same cannot be said for the other side of the coin, 266 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:33,479 Speaker 1: the pro natalists. Yep. So, in broad terms, pro natalism 267 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:37,000 Speaker 1: or just natalism, is the belief that reproduction is a 268 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 1: societal good or even the society needs more children. This 269 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 1: movement is getting louder and louder these days. It's shaping 270 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 1: policy debates in the US, in Europe and Asia and beyond, because, 271 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:51,720 Speaker 1: as I mentioned in the previous episode, fertility rates are 272 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:56,120 Speaker 1: falling almost everywhere. Countries like South Korea, Italy, Japan, and 273 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:58,400 Speaker 1: the US are seeing fewer booths than needed to sustain 274 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:01,800 Speaker 1: their current populations. So you're going to be seeing pronatalism 275 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:04,879 Speaker 1: in various forms shown up in politics and even in 276 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:09,720 Speaker 1: tech circles, especially in those ways taxles. Now, prenatalism is 277 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:13,399 Speaker 1: a broad umbrella. You know, you can have the mild 278 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 1: the position of supporting families with policies, and most people 279 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:19,919 Speaker 1: are not opposed to that, But you also have the 280 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:24,720 Speaker 1: strong pronatalist stands, which is actually urging or incentivizing or 281 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 1: mandating both for cultural, economic, or ideological reasons. Pronatalism was 282 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:34,639 Speaker 1: motivated by a few different reasons. You know, there's the 283 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 1: economic anxiety of a shrink in population meaning fewer workers, 284 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 1: more retirees, and strained pension systems. There's a nationalistic argument 285 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:47,880 Speaker 1: of worries about cultural continuity, which tend to titter into 286 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:53,480 Speaker 1: the reactionary directions, and the pronatalism today is very much 287 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 1: political as a result. In the US, Republicans have been 288 00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:59,399 Speaker 1: leaning into it, framing the low booth rates as a 289 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:03,480 Speaker 1: national crime. And in Europe you have countries like Hungary 290 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:07,680 Speaker 1: under Victor Auburn which have made pronatalism a signature policy. 291 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:12,159 Speaker 1: It's a very ineffectiveness. The religious motivations of pronatalism are 292 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:14,920 Speaker 1: also pretty interesting. You know, you have the being fruitful 293 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:19,560 Speaker 1: and multiply directive in the Bible, which some take as 294 00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:22,560 Speaker 1: far as the quiver full movement, which is the whole 295 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:26,200 Speaker 1: thing about having children by like the dozen no more. 296 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:27,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. 297 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:30,880 Speaker 1: Then you have the tech elite circles pushing pronatalism because 298 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:34,119 Speaker 1: it connects with the ideas of human progress. One of 299 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:39,640 Speaker 1: the pronatalists who most famously practices what he preaches mostly 300 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:44,360 Speaker 1: for worse is he on Musk. Yep, right, he's he's 301 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:47,800 Speaker 1: a big Nazi about it. For one, because of this 302 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:50,960 Speaker 1: we'll worry about white facility rates. But he also thinks 303 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:53,679 Speaker 1: that global rates as a whole or a bigger threat 304 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:57,160 Speaker 1: than climate change. So I mean it seems like he's 305 00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:03,240 Speaker 1: single handedly trying to fix that with his seed is spreading. Yeah, 306 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:07,160 Speaker 1: is his assembly line of children with the accompanying product 307 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 1: barcodes for names, and I just feel bad for them, honestly, 308 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:12,879 Speaker 1: to have that as a father. 309 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:17,760 Speaker 2: No, it sucks. Yeah, it's not great. It's not good. 310 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:21,040 Speaker 1: And so he and his billionaire bodies of the belief 311 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:24,080 Speaker 1: that civilization will collapse if we don't make more babies, 312 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:29,240 Speaker 1: Silicon Valley circles are funding pronatalist think tanks and embryo 313 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:33,920 Speaker 1: optimization projects. A lot of policies are also coming out 314 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:38,440 Speaker 1: of the pronatalist camp. Unlike the anti natalists. Historically, countries 315 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:40,920 Speaker 1: like the Soviet Union hand their off medals like Mother 316 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:44,240 Speaker 1: Heroine for women with large families, and the Russia of 317 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:48,639 Speaker 1: today has revived similar awards recently, alongside like I mentioned 318 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:53,320 Speaker 1: in the previous episode, banning anti natalist propaganda. Now some 319 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:57,480 Speaker 1: countries are offering tax incentives for both and even proposing 320 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:01,200 Speaker 1: baby bonuses of thousands of dollars is paid for each booth. 321 00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:03,840 Speaker 1: Thousand said dollars per birth is kind of a spit 322 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 1: in the face because that's not even going to last 323 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:09,840 Speaker 1: the first couple months of a child being born. Let's 324 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:15,200 Speaker 1: be real, children are extremely expensive. Yeah, yeah, proniceists also 325 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:20,160 Speaker 1: tend to push things like expanded family benefits, child allowances, 326 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:23,080 Speaker 1: or holes and subsidies for parents. These, I would say 327 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 1: are the more liberal minded or progressive minded pronace lists 328 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:28,639 Speaker 1: as much as you can be a progressive and a 329 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:32,680 Speaker 1: proniac list, because they're actually considering the ways that they 330 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 1: can make actually bearing children and raising children a bit 331 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:39,040 Speaker 1: easier for the people who have to do it. That 332 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:43,480 Speaker 1: sort of support also includes things like expanding IVF access, 333 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:48,399 Speaker 1: subsidized and fertility treatments, you know, improving embryo screening, that 334 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:52,639 Speaker 1: sort of thing. Places like Scandinavia also have generous leave policies, 335 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:56,000 Speaker 1: which are often cited as a model of soft pronetalism 336 00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:58,720 Speaker 1: because it makes it easier for people to balance work 337 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 1: and child rearing. But he don't tend to hear these 338 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:07,880 Speaker 1: policies coming out of the much louder pronatalist conservative camp. Right. 339 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 1: What you get from them and from their pronatalism tends 340 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 1: to be restrictions and women restrictions and abortion and body 341 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:18,119 Speaker 1: autonomy policies that conflict with the goals of reproductive justice 342 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:22,560 Speaker 1: and gender equality, sometimes putting women's health at risk. And 343 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 1: also conservatives push lots of narrative with their pernatalism, large 344 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:31,760 Speaker 1: families sense of valorise. They frame childbearing as a civic duty. 345 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:34,879 Speaker 1: You know, they appeal to legacy and culture and identity. 346 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:38,879 Speaker 1: When you get into that white supremacist camp, and you 347 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 1: also get the whole eugenics of it, you know, the 348 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:46,160 Speaker 1: tech elite prenatalist wing. They're pushing for things like gene editing, 349 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:50,440 Speaker 1: embryo selection, and the sort of stuff that Musk is 350 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:54,879 Speaker 1: talking about with his racial replacement anxieties. In any case, 351 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:59,199 Speaker 1: the effectiveness of even the few positive policies has been 352 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:03,560 Speaker 1: pretty mixed. Countries have tried pumping billions into subsidies, and 353 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 1: often fertility rates have barely budged deep structural issues like 354 00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:13,560 Speaker 1: the cost of living, cultural norms around gender, career paths, 355 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:18,119 Speaker 1: health concerns. All these often we the incentives of a 356 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:22,199 Speaker 1: couple of thousand dollars or extended opportunity leaves. You know, 357 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:25,280 Speaker 1: if people don't want to have babies, they're not gonna 358 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 1: have babies. If they're not confidence in their ability to 359 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:31,639 Speaker 1: have children raise an environment that they feel is best 360 00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 1: for them, they're not gonna have children. You know, people, 361 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 1: more than ever have that choice, and unfortunately a lot 362 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 1: of the pronacialist policies don't care about making child bearing easier, 363 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:48,919 Speaker 1: you know, easing the path to make that choice. They 364 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:52,399 Speaker 1: just want to pressure people to have children. Yep, you know, 365 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:55,760 Speaker 1: they loose right back to misogyny, a reaction against women's freedom, 366 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:58,720 Speaker 1: pushing them back into the kitchen, pushing them back into 367 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 1: that Subsivian position in society. So I have to look 368 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:05,919 Speaker 1: at both sides, right, you have the anti natalists and 369 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:09,439 Speaker 1: the pronatalists. Don't create life to avoid suffering, or you 370 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:12,960 Speaker 1: must create life to preserve society. I guess you could 371 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:17,840 Speaker 1: call me a centrist. The anti natalists repulse me, and 372 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:22,879 Speaker 1: the pronatalists equally repulse me. You know, I'm wary of 373 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 1: anyone claiming that you must have children or you must 374 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:28,439 Speaker 1: not have children. I'm weary of a world where these 375 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 1: kinds of choices are couced by others. You know, As 376 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:35,200 Speaker 1: an anarchist, I'm a firm believer in autonomy, in personal 377 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:39,120 Speaker 1: freedom and the ability to decide one's own life. That's 378 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:41,320 Speaker 1: what matters to me. You know, I don't intend to 379 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:44,600 Speaker 1: have children myself. I do like children a lot. I 380 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:46,720 Speaker 1: was once a child myself, and I look forward to 381 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:49,800 Speaker 1: being an uncle. A godfather and all that, but that's 382 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 1: my choice. You don't let your choice be your choice 383 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:56,399 Speaker 1: and my choice be my choice. Make choices freely, resist 384 00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,480 Speaker 1: the pressure for me the camp and keep the agency intact. 385 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:01,439 Speaker 1: That's all I have to say on it. 386 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:03,800 Speaker 2: Honestly, Yeah, I mean honestly. That covers that stuff I 387 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:04,480 Speaker 2: was gonna say so. 388 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean with that, if be can wrap it, yeah, 389 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:13,119 Speaker 1: all the poets, all the people this has been, It 390 00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:13,879 Speaker 1: could happen. 391 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 3: Here, Peace, It could happen Here is a production of 392 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:23,880 Speaker 3: cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, 393 00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:27,280 Speaker 3: visit our website Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out 394 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:30,720 Speaker 3: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 395 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:33,400 Speaker 3: to podcasts. You can now find sources for it could 396 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:35,679 Speaker 3: Happen here listed directly in episode descriptions. 397 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening.