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Speaker 1: Hello, Internet, and welcome to Season to thirty one, episode

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Speaker 1: five of The Daily Site. Guys. It's a production of

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Speaker 1: My Heart Radio. It's also the podcast where we take

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Speaker 1: a deep dive into america Shared sordid consciousness. It's Friday,

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Speaker 1: April eighth two. That means it's National Implanata Day. So

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Speaker 1: for a few we've got a favorite empanata spot. Hit

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Speaker 1: it up because it's Empanata Day. Supports your empanada empanados

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Speaker 1: or if there's this real term for that, I just

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Speaker 1: made that up forgive my broken Spanish. But yes, I

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Speaker 1: love a good empanada and I'm really cool. I didn't

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Speaker 1: realize that today was such a blessed day. I'm miles

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Speaker 1: great a k A pastry with filling hunger is killing.

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Speaker 1: Let's go smash some top us bites while listening to

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Speaker 1: Daily's eyes saying, e's so the flaky is so cheesy

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Speaker 1: beef snacks. Carry me empanada Na da da da da

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Speaker 1: da Empanada na dada. So sout out to Scouting Magoo

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Speaker 1: on the discord, who came with the pre emptive said,

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Speaker 1: if this day is going to be Impleanata day, why

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Speaker 1: don't you just try this Blink one eighty two and

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Speaker 1: but not to mash up. Thank you for that one.

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Speaker 1: Appreciate all of the contributions on Discord, But if about

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Speaker 1: us and empanadas. I'm thrilled to introduce my guest co

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Speaker 1: host today, the one I've referred to as a guest

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Speaker 1: co host with them a host obviously Chicago's very own

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Speaker 1: Blessed Son, the wonderfully talented podcaster, producer, writer, actor, comedian, improviser.

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Speaker 1: What else can I say? Multi hyphening it shockkeeps now

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Speaker 1: Happy Judge Jackson Day. Happy Judge Jackson Day. She's on

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Speaker 1: not Supreme Chord Happy just Jackson Day. Oh what a

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Speaker 1: black people? How are we doing? Yes, everybody who is

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Speaker 1: not black, turning your radio's off. I'm gonna talk to

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Speaker 1: the black folks, right, radios turn them down. You can't

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Speaker 1: hear this. Guys. We did it. We did it. We

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Speaker 1: got our first black person on the our guest term

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Speaker 1: to video of we got our first black person on

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Speaker 1: the Supreme Court. Yes, that's right. First, hold on, hold on,

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Speaker 1: I know what I said, I'm calculated, and what I said,

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Speaker 1: our first black good Marshall count I mean on the

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Speaker 1: Supreme Court right now, yes, yes, yes, yes, I mean

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Speaker 1: on the Supreme Court, right, not a black woman? Yes, yes, yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: all right everybody, everybody, why you can tell your cameras

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Speaker 1: back on, your for your radio's back on. I just

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Speaker 1: sucked up. I'm in right now. Not the first person ever, yes,

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Speaker 1: not the first person ever. But thank you, Miles, thank

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Speaker 1: you Myles for first sending me straight so I don't misspeak.

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Speaker 1: It's a beautiful day, Miles, how are you. I'm fantastic.

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Speaker 1: I love to see black people when I love to

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Speaker 1: see Brown Jackson go through such a transparently hostile, misogynistic,

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Speaker 1: racist confirmation process where they did everything they could while

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Speaker 1: ignoring all of the things that made her qualified, and

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Speaker 1: despite that, she made it through. So yeah, all that

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Speaker 1: to say, you know, like I like to say, I'm optimistic,

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Speaker 1: I like to say that things ultimately been towards the positive.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I think in another time maybe they

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Speaker 1: people may have gotten lucky trying to pick her off.

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Speaker 1: But no, and it was hardening to see that her

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Speaker 1: her approval ratings went up after all that nonsense went down.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, they can't stop, they can't stop the moment.

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Speaker 1: It was a vibe, It was a vile display of

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Speaker 1: racism and misogyny. It was a vile display of picking

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Speaker 1: apart an honorable person like I haven't seen in a

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Speaker 1: very long time. But you know what she persevered. She

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Speaker 1: is through four women on the Supreme Court. Only one

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Speaker 1: of them is terrible. Uh, it's a beautiful fucking day.

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Speaker 1: It's a beautiful day. So but but let's bring on

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Speaker 1: our guess. You know, I don't want to come Lovely day,

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Speaker 1: k K b J. That's what I thought you were

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Speaker 1: going because I thought I heard you listening to Bill

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Speaker 1: Withers right before I was. I was, but I posted

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Speaker 1: it on my Instagram and stand, I feel like I've

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Speaker 1: done Bill with us like four times, Like well, you

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Speaker 1: know others is a classic. You know you can go

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Speaker 1: so many ways with Bill with us. I mean, the

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Speaker 1: guy was working on a factory line so deep into

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Speaker 1: his career. I was like, Okay, maybe I don't have

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Speaker 1: to work this job and I can just do the

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Speaker 1: music thing. I can just go hit I can go

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Speaker 1: hit notes twenty eight seconds long, right, or just get

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Speaker 1: that YouTube version where it's ten hours long. Uh, just

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Speaker 1: lovely day, lovely day, lovely day. Anyway, it is a

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Speaker 1: lovely day. And today we have a very very special guest.

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Speaker 1: It's not often we have established achievers in the fields

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Speaker 1: of journalism and science. You know, typically we have a

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Speaker 1: lot of great thinkers, comedians on. But I am thrilled

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Speaker 1: to be introducing our guest today, an award winning author

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Speaker 1: science and culture journalists. Her book The End of Bias

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Speaker 1: of Beginning looks at discrimination and how we as a

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Speaker 1: society can move forward because I think a lot of

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Speaker 1: the time we just know, we acknowledge the existence of

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Speaker 1: biases or discrimination, and then it just ends there and say,

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Speaker 1: isn't that some ship. Well, I'm thrilled to introduce our

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Speaker 1: guests today, Jessica Nordo. Hello, Hello, I'm thrilled to be here.

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Speaker 1: And by the way, when you brought up Katashi Brown Jackson,

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Speaker 1: a siren started going off outside my window. So the

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Speaker 1: world is celebrating. At the world is celebrating. It's a

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Speaker 1: beautiful thing. Yeah, we're Jessica. Where are you were? What

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Speaker 1: what part of the country are you in or the

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Speaker 1: or the world? If you are not in the US,

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Speaker 1: I believe I live in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Okay, okay, are

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Speaker 1: you from Minneapolis. I've been here for a lot of

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Speaker 1: my adulthood. I was born in l a and grew

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Speaker 1: up in Green Bay, Wisconsin. Oh, okay, are you a

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Speaker 1: packer saying? Are you a Packers fan at all? You know,

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Speaker 1: I would say I am culturally a Packers fan, but

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Speaker 1: I'm not currently practicing. Okay, that we can keep. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I was raised in the religion of the Packers, but

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Speaker 1: I am okay, yeah, right, as long as you've seen

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Speaker 1: exactly wow, okay, you get the Chicago aligned the West

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Speaker 1: energy swirling. Yeah, I mean third grade, I remember Packers bears,

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Speaker 1: like things were, things were very hot between ourselves. And

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Speaker 1: I was speaking of which I was asking, really, you

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Speaker 1: saw that clip of young Prince that was like resurrected

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Speaker 1: this week? Yes, Oh my gosh it, I can't believe

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Speaker 1: I was telling you're telling you all earlier, when it's

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Speaker 1: so interesting when you can see somebody in their youth

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Speaker 1: and you're like, that is that person undeniably, there's no

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Speaker 1: question about it, exactly like you you see him and

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Speaker 1: you hear him, and you're like, yes, this is Prince.

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Speaker 1: He's like little baby eleven year old princes Like we

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Speaker 1: should support our teachers because they were really hard for us.

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. They found him at eleven years old

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Speaker 1: at the local news station. Editors like this is this

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Speaker 1: is the Purple One as a child. That's amazing, praise

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Speaker 1: this video. I got to see this video because I haven't.

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Speaker 1: You gotta look at I mean the screen grab alone.

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Speaker 1: You're just gonna melt because you're like that he's a

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Speaker 1: leven year old. Like the look he's even given the camera.

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Speaker 1: He's even like smizing attitude. He has more attitude as

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Speaker 1: an eleven year old than like most adults. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's like and I think then I get I get

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Speaker 1: all down on myself. I'm like, man, I have to

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Speaker 1: get this this See. These are like those generational talents

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Speaker 1: where it's like the energy is shooting out of them

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Speaker 1: even at a young age, and you're like this, this

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Speaker 1: one's special. Um, I see and I'm looking at it now,

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Speaker 1: do you see? I feel like that's a meme almost.

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Speaker 1: That look that they're giving where he's like looking at

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Speaker 1: the camera with his eyes low. Ye see you I

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Speaker 1: see that. Before we get to know you better, Jessica,

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Speaker 1: let's tell the listeners what we are going to talk

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Speaker 1: about today. First, talking with Jessica, you know bias it's everywhere,

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Speaker 1: and like I was telling, so, like I was saying earlier,

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Speaker 1: typically a lot of our thinking around it, or at

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Speaker 1: least our observation. It sort of ends at observation. And

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Speaker 1: I'm glad that there are people like you who are

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Speaker 1: interested in the next steps to that. So we'll talk

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Speaker 1: about bias, how we can confront those, and how we

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Speaker 1: can potentially make a change for the bedroom. That would

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Speaker 1: be something. But first, Jessica, we got to ask you

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Speaker 1: what is something from your search history that's revealing about

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Speaker 1: who you are? Search history? So we'll just dive right in.

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Speaker 1: I recently was searching the term excited delirium, which is uh,

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Speaker 1: something I've been wondering about and thinking about a lot

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Speaker 1: lately because it is a made up diagnosis that has

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Speaker 1: been taught. So I live in Minneapolis, and obviously there's

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Speaker 1: been a lot going on in Minneapolis the last few years,

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Speaker 1: and excited delirium is a is a made up diagnosis

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Speaker 1: that had have been taught to the Minneapolis Police by

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Speaker 1: one of our health systems. And the idea of excited

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Speaker 1: delirium is that so this is a diagnosis that is

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Speaker 1: not recognized by the American Medical Association But what the

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Speaker 1: idea is that you can become so worked up and

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Speaker 1: so agitated that your body you go into lactic acidosis.

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Speaker 1: Your body becomes like highly acidic, and it can be fatal.

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Speaker 1: And so police are taught that excited delirium is something

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Speaker 1: that they should be looking out for when they're interacting

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Speaker 1: with the community, interacting with citizens. But what happens is

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Speaker 1: that because they are taught this diagnosis, when they see

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Speaker 1: someone really agitated, they think, excited delirium. I have to

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Speaker 1: restrain this person. This is dangerous. And then the restraint

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Speaker 1: itself can be a complication that leads to death. And

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Speaker 1: this is used much more against African American men, restraint

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Speaker 1: and the diagnosis of excited delirium. And so I've been,

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Speaker 1: you know, sort of trying to research it, figuring out

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Speaker 1: what's going on right now with the Minneapolis police being

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Speaker 1: taught this. They were we were told that they weren't,

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Speaker 1: that they had stopped teaching excited delirium, but then recently

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Speaker 1: it came out that they this health system was actually

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Speaker 1: still teaching people about excited delirium. They had just renamed

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Speaker 1: it agitated delirium, so to kind of get around the

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Speaker 1: ban on teaching this. So is that more of a

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Speaker 1: way to justify like more aggressive ways of restraining people

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Speaker 1: or is it are are they trying to like pre

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Speaker 1: empt some kind of like liability if someone is act

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Speaker 1: but potentially, like what's the logic from the law enforcement

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Speaker 1: side of even bothering to like just like distribute this

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Speaker 1: information to their officers? Right? So they a lot of

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Speaker 1: them have been taught that like this has been information

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Speaker 1: that's been passed down for years, that this is a

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Speaker 1: real thing that they need to be worried about, and

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Speaker 1: that it's like it's a danger Like if someone is

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Speaker 1: experience is showing extreme agitation, it's dangerous to their own lives.

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Speaker 1: So in the officer's mind, they are thinking, I need

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Speaker 1: to restrain this person, get them under control so that

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Speaker 1: they don't go into lactic acidosis. And is that common

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Speaker 1: like people dying from lactic acidosis? I mean it can happen,

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Speaker 1: like with marathon runners. It can happen with like extreme exertion.

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Speaker 1: But the doctors I've talked to have said, like, you

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Speaker 1: can't tell if someone has a high acid content in

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Speaker 1: their blood just from looking at them, just from even

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Speaker 1: a doctor can't tell that that's that's the thing that

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Speaker 1: it's amazing, how because you know, the first when I

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Speaker 1: first heard you say this and you said they were

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Speaker 1: teaching you know, the cops this basically, the first thing

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Speaker 1: that I thought of was, Oh, this is just another

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Speaker 1: targeting thing. They're going to use this to target black people,

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Speaker 1: people of color, less fortunate people. They're gonna marginalize people.

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Speaker 1: This is a targeting tool, right, And it's amazing how

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Speaker 1: many professions that they will give cops to give them

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Speaker 1: the right to hurt people. You ain't a fucking doctor.

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Speaker 1: What the hell you like? How can you dying? Oh? Oh,

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Speaker 1: that person right there has excited delirium, which I just

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Speaker 1: learned about two weeks ago. I can get the funk,

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Speaker 1: Like what what? It makes no sense, but it is

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Speaker 1: not surprising because they will talk about or give credence

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Speaker 1: to anything if it can lead to the ability to

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Speaker 1: target marginalized and oppressed individuals and groups. And it's very disappointing.

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Speaker 1: And there's this also this element to it where you're like,

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Speaker 1: the thing we see with law enforcement is they're constantly

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Speaker 1: taught all these ways to put things in your subconscious

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Speaker 1: That person you're talking to is about to kill you

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Speaker 1: or as an immediate threat, whether that's like the warrior mentality,

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Speaker 1: a warrior approach of law enforcement officers that we see

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Speaker 1: being taught, which is like, you're not there to serve

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Speaker 1: and protect, You're there to fund people up in case

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Speaker 1: they get out of line, and you always have to

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Speaker 1: be on your guard because you are a warrior. And

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Speaker 1: now you're only facing enemy combatants out in the field

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Speaker 1: or whatever. That this seems like another way, a very

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Speaker 1: insidious way to just almost use someone's sense of helping

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Speaker 1: somebody to justify get like you're saying that key's like

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Speaker 1: turning the turning, flipping the switch to like violent, a

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Speaker 1: violent interaction totally. And then the you know, the sort

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Speaker 1: of horrible irony of it is that then if someone

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Speaker 1: does die in police custody, well it was excited delirium, right,

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Speaker 1: that is then used as an excuse. It's using it

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Speaker 1: as an excuse both to restrain or to inject someone

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Speaker 1: with ketamine in the case you know, in many this

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Speaker 1: is something that has happened a lot in Minneapolis, inject

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Speaker 1: someone with ketamine and then if the person you know

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Speaker 1: dies in police custody, then it can be blamed on

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Speaker 1: this made up diagnosis of right, that's why I've never

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Speaker 1: I've never heard of this until you just said it.

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Speaker 1: And it's, um, it's a very interesting thing that, uh,

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Speaker 1: there are so many terms that the people who are

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Speaker 1: you know, tasked with protecting and serving us, as you know,

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Speaker 1: the little bumper stick or they put on their vehicles

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Speaker 1: saying it's that there are so many terms that they

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Speaker 1: don't let us know about. Right, you know, they can

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Speaker 1: do all these things, and then after the fact we're like, well,

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Speaker 1: there's this thing called excited delirium that we you know,

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Speaker 1: we look for. It was just like, what like, why

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Speaker 1: not why not bring that out? Why not be if

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Speaker 1: that's something that you're really looking for, then that should

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Speaker 1: be you know, bullet point one, two three. These are

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Speaker 1: the things so public should know and they're not. I

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Speaker 1: mean the public does no, I guess because you know

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Speaker 1: and you searched it, but it's not readily available, like

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Speaker 1: you know, most of us have never and it's not

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Speaker 1: like you need a p s A for you know,

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Speaker 1: the excited delirium because it's such a problem. But yet again,

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Speaker 1: it just throw it on the pile of you know,

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Speaker 1: racist medical myths that we've used over the years to

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Speaker 1: you know, whether it's prohibiting drugs or not giving proper

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Speaker 1: medical care to people of color. Just so many, so

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Speaker 1: many ways to trick your brain to just continue down

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Speaker 1: the path of just discriminating or treating people a certain way. Jessica,

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Speaker 1: what's something you think is overrated? So overrated? I was thinking,

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Speaker 1: I think, you know, when I think about overrated, I

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Speaker 1: also think about kind of like romanticized or like elevated.

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Speaker 1: And I actually think being a pioneer is overrated or romanticized,

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Speaker 1: being the first one to do something, whether it's the

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Speaker 1: first woman or the first person of color. I was

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Speaker 1: thinking about this when I was watching the Cantantry Ground

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Speaker 1: Jackson hearings, who is now first black woman on the

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Speaker 1: Supreme Court. And I think, you know, people romanticize is

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Speaker 1: the idea of being a pioneer, Like you're breaking boundaries,

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Speaker 1: you're shattering you know, you're shattering expectations, You're you know,

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Speaker 1: you're breaking through barriers. But being a pioneer is really hard.

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Speaker 1: And you know, when I was working on this book

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Speaker 1: about decreasing bias and discrimination, I talked to a lot

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Speaker 1: of people who were pioneers. You know, like whether it

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Speaker 1: was like, you know, the only women in an engine

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Speaker 1: in a science lab, or the first black woman to

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Speaker 1: be in an aeronautical engineering company, something like that. And

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Speaker 1: what I realized about the experience of being a pioneer,

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Speaker 1: being the first, or being the only or being one

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Speaker 1: of very few, is that there's this interesting thing that happens,

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Speaker 1: which is that the majority of the people in that

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Speaker 1: role or at that job have like one set of

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Speaker 1: job requirements that they have to meet m but the

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Speaker 1: pioneer has to meet all of those requirements plus a

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Speaker 1: whole shadow set of requirements that are not written down

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Speaker 1: anywhere and are not like formal job requirements. I kind

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Speaker 1: of think of them as like pioneer requirements. So like

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Speaker 1: if you like a lot of the engineer with women

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Speaker 1: engineers and like women of color engineers I talked to,

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Speaker 1: described how they would. You know, an engineer has to

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Speaker 1: be really good at like technical skills, really good at teamwork,

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Speaker 1: really good at creative problem solving, you know, be really

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Speaker 1: on point with like math and science and communication skills.

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Speaker 1: But then a pioneer, like the only black woman at

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Speaker 1: this aeronautical engineering company, had to have all those requirements,

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Speaker 1: plus she had to be able to work alone because

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Speaker 1: she was solitary, had to work alone a lot, like

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Speaker 1: she wouldn't be invited to work with other people. She

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Speaker 1: had to be able to maintain her composure when people

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Speaker 1: would make aggressive or you know, biased remarks, had to

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Speaker 1: have like infinite patients, and so there was like this

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Speaker 1: whole separate set of requirements that are not formalized anywhere.

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Speaker 1: And so what you know, when I started realizing, was

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Speaker 1: that one thing that happens when we have like really

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Speaker 1: homogeneous workplaces, are really homogeneous disciplines or you know, fields,

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Speaker 1: is that it really like artificially shrinks the number of

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Speaker 1: people from the not majority who are going to be

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Speaker 1: able to be in those roles because they have like

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Speaker 1: double the requirements. Yeah, it's very interesting, you know, because

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Speaker 1: I don't know if I don't know if I can

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Speaker 1: say no one, because I'm sure some people do. But

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Speaker 1: for the most part, no one sets out to be historic.

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Speaker 1: No one sets out to be the first ever anything,

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Speaker 1: certainly not by choice. You know, Like I I don't

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Speaker 1: want to be the first black person to do something personally,

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Speaker 1: but there may be some things where I could be

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Speaker 1: the first black person to do something by just by default, right,

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Speaker 1: and and the and you you you brought us a

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Speaker 1: really interesting point about how the requirements are even more.

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Speaker 1: You know, something that you know a lot of black

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Speaker 1: people talk about or people of color, but you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm black, so I can speak to that experience, is

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Speaker 1: how we have to carry black excellence in a world

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Speaker 1: of white mediocrity. And and you know, as I say that,

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Speaker 1: and I'm not saying every white person is mediocre. There

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Speaker 1: are some excellent people of you know, who aren't non

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Speaker 1: black excellence as well. But we have to be excellent

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Speaker 1: in order to be in the room, right, we have

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Speaker 1: to be excellent in order to sit at the table.

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Speaker 1: We have to be we have to carry this way.

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Speaker 1: We have to have the grace, we have to have

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Speaker 1: the perseverance. We have to be the first to walk

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Speaker 1: through the fire. You know. And here's the funny thing.

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Speaker 1: Well fire, that ship is alway, it's hot. Hey, this

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Speaker 1: is always hot, But you got to be the first

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Speaker 1: one to walk through and right to let everybody else

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Speaker 1: know just how hot it is. And that is an

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Speaker 1: incredible weight. Uh So, I think this is a beautiful

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Speaker 1: overrated because nobody wants that. You just want to do

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Speaker 1: your job right. You were just trying to do the

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Speaker 1: thing that you love. But because of you know, a

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Speaker 1: gemony and the way our society is, it just means

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Speaker 1: you have to move through that this organism at a

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Speaker 1: different pace and in a different route than most people do,

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Speaker 1: one that is much easier. And yeah, and I feel

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Speaker 1: you especially on that keys, because I think most especially

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Speaker 1: black kids, they're you're raised being told you have to

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Speaker 1: work twice as hard for half as much. And that's

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Speaker 1: something I was raised hearing a lot by most people.

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Speaker 1: I know that you're there's something that you already know

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Speaker 1: you have to overcome a lot just to sort of

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Speaker 1: get what you what you need. And yeah, I think

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Speaker 1: there is like there there's like there's like this a

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Speaker 1: bit of melancholy right to being the first while like

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Speaker 1: you know, while we all we all are here celebrating this,

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Speaker 1: we did see how hard it is to be a pioneer,

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Speaker 1: like in real time, and that was that was difficult,

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Speaker 1: and that was the thing that I'm not celebrating and

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Speaker 1: I wish she didn't have to go through. And I

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Speaker 1: think it's so it is definitely overrated in the sense

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Speaker 1: where you hear, especially some of the other senators and

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Speaker 1: the judiciary committee just commend that she went through. That

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Speaker 1: was like, oh you were just that was you survived that,

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Speaker 1: That was that was really stellar, rather than putting the

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Speaker 1: energy into maybe we don't need situations where people need

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Speaker 1: to survive a fucking meat grinder, and that's where we

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Speaker 1: want to be. You know, I was just gonna say,

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Speaker 1: real quick, do you know how exhausting mentally it is

376
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Speaker 1: to even just think that if I want to do something,

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Speaker 1: it's gonna come with barrels of hate, Like that's mentally exhausting,

378
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Speaker 1: And then even want to do that and you're still like,

379
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Speaker 1: I want to do that, right because I just love

380
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Speaker 1: what I do and or I want to make a

381
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Speaker 1: difference or for whatever we are, I want to make

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Speaker 1: a lot of money. Who gives whatever your reason it is,

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Speaker 1: it shouldn't come with prerequisite hate, and it just does.

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Speaker 1: And it's a it's a very disheartening and exhausting thing. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean I think, you know, I think we don't

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Speaker 1: recognize enough how how much that shrinks the pool of

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Speaker 1: people who are going to go forward with that field,

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Speaker 1: because like you know, you know, when I was doing

389
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Speaker 1: research about this, I found that sometimes the like the

390
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Speaker 1: job requirement and the pioneer requirement would actually be like

391
00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:41,480
Speaker 1: opposite requirements. You know, in a job, you might have

392
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Speaker 1: to be really good at teamwork and be really social

393
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Speaker 1: and be really good at working with other people, but

394
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Speaker 1: then the pioneer might have to also be really good

395
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Speaker 1: at working alone, really prefer to work alone. So like,

396
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Speaker 1: the pool of people that can meet both, who want

397
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Speaker 1: to meet both is so exceedingly small because they're often

398
00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:03,360
Speaker 1: at odds with each other, right, and they're unfair sort

399
00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:05,960
Speaker 1: of rubrics to use because on one side, you have,

400
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Speaker 1: especially you know, you think of like all black women

401
00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:12,520
Speaker 1: especially have to navigate this idea that if you begin

402
00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:16,040
Speaker 1: to show your frustration or speak out against something that's

403
00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:17,879
Speaker 1: happening to you, then you're being going to be labeled

404
00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:21,680
Speaker 1: as an angry black person. And the fact that that

405
00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:24,760
Speaker 1: is that's already an added dimension to the experience of

406
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Speaker 1: someone who just wants to work somewhere. Yeah, it just

407
00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:31,280
Speaker 1: wants to do a job. Yeah. Meanwhile, the other coworkers

408
00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:34,200
Speaker 1: who might not be black can say all kinds of

409
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Speaker 1: wild ship, behave all kinds of different ways, and they're like,

410
00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:42,240
Speaker 1: well that's just terry, yeah exactly, And suddenly we're looking

411
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Speaker 1: at a complete sense. And then you look at like

412
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Speaker 1: you're saying, then the pool then shrinks, because now you

413
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Speaker 1: can't just be someone who inherently wants to do a

414
00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:52,000
Speaker 1: certain job or career. You have to do that and

415
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:56,800
Speaker 1: have your you're like nerves caught aized so you're not

416
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Speaker 1: like so sensitive to all the other bullshit that you

417
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:01,480
Speaker 1: have to deal with. And yeah, that and I think

418
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:03,840
Speaker 1: that's a very subtle way of looking at how the

419
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:07,840
Speaker 1: the the imbalance that that that exists for people, especially

420
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:09,639
Speaker 1: because some people can go in it could be an

421
00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:12,119
Speaker 1: asshole in U. S N. But the second there's some

422
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:14,760
Speaker 1: melon in there and a certain way the world looks

423
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,920
Speaker 1: at you based on our culture, then like you're saying,

424
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Speaker 1: that's a completely different set of facts. And I know

425
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Speaker 1: we have to move on. But just there's one thing

426
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Speaker 1: too that it's a lot to say on this. It

427
00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:33,640
Speaker 1: is as as beautiful as it is to see young

428
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:38,440
Speaker 1: black girls, young women of color look at all the women,

429
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:40,879
Speaker 1: all the women of color on the Supreme Court or

430
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 1: just Jackson and say, oh, man, I can do that.

431
00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:47,760
Speaker 1: I want to do that. That's a beautiful thing. But

432
00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:50,600
Speaker 1: on the flip side, you look at some young black

433
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:53,600
Speaker 1: women who will see what she just went through to

434
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:58,080
Speaker 1: publicly on display two millions of people to get there

435
00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 1: and be like that's not worth it. And that's sad, Like,

436
00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:05,920
Speaker 1: that's very sad because no white man in America saw

437
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:09,399
Speaker 1: what Judge, what what Brett Kavanaugh went through. It was like,

438
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:11,920
Speaker 1: I don't know if I would never want to be

439
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:15,280
Speaker 1: on the Supreme Court. Now, the questions, none of them,

440
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:18,359
Speaker 1: none of them did that. The lesson there was they'll

441
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:22,280
Speaker 1: hook you up right there exactly. The Yeah. The lesson

442
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:24,160
Speaker 1: was like, I guess I can do whatever I want

443
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:25,560
Speaker 1: to in high school and I'll still get on the

444
00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:27,680
Speaker 1: Supreme Court. Yeah, I'll go through it because I'll have

445
00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:31,560
Speaker 1: they will have my back, like and it's it's crazy,

446
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:34,360
Speaker 1: it's crazy, it's crazy. And I think that's what makes

447
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:36,160
Speaker 1: it really tragic as you think of all the people

448
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:40,160
Speaker 1: who who aren't the musicians or business people or chemists

449
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:44,560
Speaker 1: or engineers because they didn't have that secondary that extra

450
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:47,240
Speaker 1: set of skills that so many people don't need to possess,

451
00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:50,960
Speaker 1: and those are all lost, that's all lost potential. And

452
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:54,000
Speaker 1: that's how quickly that ship happens. And it's that's something

453
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:57,400
Speaker 1: as simple as like you're saying it's like there's yes,

454
00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:00,399
Speaker 1: there's the just the job description, and then there's the

455
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:03,600
Speaker 1: nuances of society that you then have to grapple with

456
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,399
Speaker 1: to be able to make it there. And that is

457
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:09,679
Speaker 1: a truly like that's a just an intense meat grinder.

458
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 1: You know what. Let's take a quick break and we'll

459
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,159
Speaker 1: come back and we'll get that underrated right after this

460
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:29,520
Speaker 1: and we're back. Uh. And lastly, but not least, Lee, Jessica,

461
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:32,440
Speaker 1: what is something you think is underrated? I think something

462
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:36,919
Speaker 1: that's underrated is being a work in progress. M hm.

463
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,280
Speaker 1: So I think in our I think we live in

464
00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:44,600
Speaker 1: a society that wants you to have the answers now

465
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:48,680
Speaker 1: and to know the right the truth now and to

466
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 1: get it all right now and not make mistakes and

467
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 1: be fully evolved as a human being right now. And

468
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 1: I just think that's not how we are as people.

469
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 1: I think we are all like constantly screwing up, constantly learning.

470
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:06,359
Speaker 1: That's like the beauty of being a human is like

471
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:09,000
Speaker 1: you get to learn and grow and change and be

472
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:11,720
Speaker 1: mentally in a different place this year than you were

473
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 1: last year. And I think that you know, people can

474
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:21,080
Speaker 1: change and people can like grow and evolve, and so

475
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:23,920
Speaker 1: I think it's I think the idea of like not

476
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 1: knowing is kind of underrated. Like I think that I

477
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:30,760
Speaker 1: wish that we could embrace more of a sense that

478
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:33,960
Speaker 1: we are all in process, that we are all in

479
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:37,159
Speaker 1: some you know, going through some kind of transformation, and

480
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:39,480
Speaker 1: it's okay to not know or to screw up or

481
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 1: to make a mistake because you can just start over

482
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:46,240
Speaker 1: and try to do better next time. Yeah, and snow

483
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:54,480
Speaker 1: pants us are nice snowboarding last month and bought me

484
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:56,800
Speaker 1: a nice little snow pants outfit and I was like, oh,

485
00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,600
Speaker 1: please keep me warm. I like, I don't do them

486
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,359
Speaker 1: in blue on skiing blue jeans like like a mountain,

487
00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:06,640
Speaker 1: like a real gangster. No, man, you know, I put

488
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:10,280
Speaker 1: on my gangster hat years ago. Now, the snow pans

489
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:13,440
Speaker 1: all the time, some waterproof that's a beautiful that's a

490
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 1: beautiful underrated. And you know, like I remember, you know,

491
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:21,800
Speaker 1: just speaking of working process, when I was younger, and uh,

492
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 1: I was just being introduced to the sports world and

493
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:27,720
Speaker 1: there was this quarterback that I was like, Oh, I

494
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 1: like this guy. He is he is he's pretty good.

495
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:34,480
Speaker 1: He throws far. You know, everybody talks about him and

496
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:36,639
Speaker 1: I started to like him. His name was Brett Farve

497
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 1: of the Green Bay Packers. And you know, I had

498
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 1: to go through that process of growing and realizing that

499
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:46,280
Speaker 1: you know that this is this is a terrible thing.

500
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:48,840
Speaker 1: I'm a Chicago I'm in Chicago. I'm a Bears fan.

501
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,200
Speaker 1: And and I grew and I was allowed to change.

502
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 1: And if my fellow Bear fans didn't let me change,

503
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 1: who knows, where would you be? Where would I be now?

504
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 1: And though like, you know, you have a bad style

505
00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:09,719
Speaker 1: now wearing Wrangler jeans, but you know this idea right

506
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 1: that you're speaking to. It's the whole reason why we

507
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 1: have such conflicts culture is that because we have because

508
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 1: we we aren't looking at people as being able to change.

509
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 1: That intensifies the perceived effectiveness of cancel culture, right because

510
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:28,800
Speaker 1: and I think a lot of people don't realize there's

511
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,240
Speaker 1: when there's like, looking, what's happening with cancel culture? Nothing

512
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 1: is happening with cancel culture. You have a group of

513
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 1: people who feel powerless, who are trying to do whatever

514
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 1: they can to exert some kind of change on the

515
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 1: scale that they're only able to, which is, well, I

516
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:44,680
Speaker 1: don't sign the deals at Netflix so I'm just not

517
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,320
Speaker 1: gonna funk with this person anymore. That's what I'm doing

518
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:50,720
Speaker 1: because I'm not the gatekeeper. Because real cancel culture is

519
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 1: when the gatekeepers are the ones saying, you know what,

520
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:56,240
Speaker 1: let me pull this lever and now we're not going

521
00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 1: to let you know, abuse of women cook for or

522
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,240
Speaker 1: no one's going to be success full doing anything like that.

523
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:04,080
Speaker 1: But we look all around us, and that's not taken

524
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:06,280
Speaker 1: seriously in any place. You know, there's a lot of

525
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 1: lip service paid. But when you look at the actions

526
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 1: of the people that can quote unquote cancel someone, they're

527
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 1: not they're not equipped to do that. And I think

528
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 1: that also a lot of people who are kind of

529
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:20,080
Speaker 1: like really rigid in their bility, like especially with their

530
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:24,360
Speaker 1: own you know, ignorance. It's easier to say I'm the

531
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 1: finished article right now and push back on everything and

532
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 1: the idea that maybe you don't know everything than to

533
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:33,640
Speaker 1: just give yourself that little bit of grace or that

534
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:36,240
Speaker 1: little bit of patients to say, you know, I don't

535
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 1: I look, there was a time when I didn't know things,

536
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:42,200
Speaker 1: and I know more like you just were constantly learning.

537
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 1: And most people don't afford themselves that ability to say, yeah,

538
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 1: maybe I have it wrong on what I think what

539
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 1: a person of transperson's rights are or a woman's right

540
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:58,000
Speaker 1: to bodily autonomy. Maybe I'm able to reassess that. But

541
00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 1: I think because like you're saying, the assistant like, oh,

542
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:02,760
Speaker 1: you don't have your fully formed opinion on that already.

543
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 1: You're not an expert on that already, why are you

544
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:06,760
Speaker 1: even talking? That's just gonna put somebody in a position

545
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 1: where they're like, well, I don't know, Like, I'm just gonna,

546
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 1: you know what, I'm just gonna double down on this

547
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,120
Speaker 1: bad take because it's better because I see I see

548
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 1: people that are also doing that, and at least I'm

549
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:17,240
Speaker 1: not alone because I don't see as many people saying,

550
00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:20,440
Speaker 1: you know, I may have that wrong, and I'm open

551
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:24,440
Speaker 1: to to learning more. Also, um makes it hard for

552
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 1: people to admit mistakes that are serious. So I mean,

553
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 1: I think one of the I think the you know,

554
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:34,720
Speaker 1: the me too movement was like an unfinished project, and

555
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:37,480
Speaker 1: part of it, I think part of it is is

556
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 1: you know, has to do with the fact that like,

557
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 1: we don't as a society have a have a space

558
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:45,160
Speaker 1: for people to say, you know what, I did that

559
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:47,760
Speaker 1: and it was really messed up, and I was really

560
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 1: screwed up, and I am trying to figure out why

561
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 1: I was so screwed up and what the toxic messages

562
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:56,600
Speaker 1: were that I had absorbed that caused me to behave

563
00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:59,200
Speaker 1: that way, and I want to do better in the future. Like,

564
00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:03,200
Speaker 1: we don't really have of a conversation about that, and

565
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:07,280
Speaker 1: so it seems like the choice is for people to

566
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,480
Speaker 1: just deny that it ever happened, right, That seems to

567
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:12,560
Speaker 1: be the choice that that's like the only option is

568
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 1: to be like, oh, no, you know, it never happened.

569
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:17,880
Speaker 1: I just feel like we would be so much we

570
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:20,480
Speaker 1: would be able to make so much more progress together

571
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 1: if we could say, yeah, I did that. It was

572
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 1: really messed up. It was completely unacceptable, you know. And

573
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 1: then that offers people a bridge or an off ramp

574
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:34,680
Speaker 1: to that to say, Okay, wow, that's we get that,

575
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:37,320
Speaker 1: that you're you're different now, because I think when most

576
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 1: people just sort of do the thing like that never happened,

577
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 1: then that that's that only energizes people more to be like,

578
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:46,040
Speaker 1: this person is vile, this person knows nothing, they're inherently evil,

579
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 1: and they might be inherently evil, but without knowing giving

580
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:51,760
Speaker 1: people the opportunity to at least I mean not to

581
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 1: say that there is no opportunity for that. It's just

582
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:58,440
Speaker 1: that that's not really that's not the norm is to say, y'all,

583
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:02,120
Speaker 1: I've fucked up really bad. I've sucked up really bad.

584
00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:04,320
Speaker 1: And here the ways that I fucked up. I'm trying

585
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:06,720
Speaker 1: to and you do get the one off apologies from

586
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:08,440
Speaker 1: now and that, like every now and then we're like,

587
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 1: oh wow, that that's I can the contrition is there.

588
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:14,280
Speaker 1: This person is trying to grow. But like to your point,

589
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:18,120
Speaker 1: and the especially since you know, the last presidential administration,

590
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 1: it seems like the sort of move of the of

591
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:24,480
Speaker 1: the nation is just to be like that never happened.

592
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 1: The thing I'm showing you video of right now, that

593
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 1: never happened, and fuck you, and that that leads to

594
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:33,920
Speaker 1: some really dark places, right And it's crazy too because

595
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 1: we live in a we live in an instant gratification

596
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:41,680
Speaker 1: society right now, you know where I mean, everything just

597
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 1: moves quickly. You know, it's even to getting your music.

598
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 1: You know, if if if an album drops, you can

599
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 1: be listening to it at twelve o one, you know,

600
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:53,240
Speaker 1: versus when we were kids we have to at least

601
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:54,960
Speaker 1: get in that car, go to the store, get the

602
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:57,320
Speaker 1: c D. You know, like it was an extra it

603
00:33:57,400 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 1: was a few extra steps before we could even get

604
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:03,560
Speaker 1: did that same day, right, And I think because of that,

605
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:08,000
Speaker 1: we have unfortunately put that on top of this very

606
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 1: real thing of you just have to be you know,

607
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:14,840
Speaker 1: there is no growth or there is no opportunity for change,

608
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:18,040
Speaker 1: or if you make a mistake, it is an immediate

609
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:20,520
Speaker 1: like you made a mistake and this is why you

610
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:22,200
Speaker 1: funked up, and blah blah blah, and it's just like,

611
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:25,600
Speaker 1: oh well, ship, Like I didn't even know I made

612
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:28,880
Speaker 1: a mistake, right, Sometimes people don't. I'm not talking about

613
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:32,680
Speaker 1: equigious things like I'm even talking about, but some small

614
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 1: things where it's like we're so quick to not allow

615
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:41,680
Speaker 1: people the chance to grow or to learn or to

616
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:45,640
Speaker 1: show their growth. That's wild. Yea, the instant gratification thing,

617
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:49,680
Speaker 1: like you're saying extent that even someone's development has to

618
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:52,759
Speaker 1: be instant, because I think that is a huge difference too,

619
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:56,480
Speaker 1: because I I feel like me growing up pre smartphone

620
00:34:56,600 --> 00:35:01,920
Speaker 1: in high school gave me some bandwidth to like have

621
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:06,280
Speaker 1: take a second look at my own behavior and compare

622
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:08,080
Speaker 1: that to who I think I should be or what

623
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 1: others are telling me I should be, and like parts

624
00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:14,800
Speaker 1: to go pass through that on my own time, whereas

625
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:18,440
Speaker 1: now I feel like that that that timing is very limited.

626
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:21,600
Speaker 1: All potentially everything you do and say can be recorded,

627
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 1: and I think that also gives people puts people in

628
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:27,279
Speaker 1: a very odd headspace as well, where you're on edge

629
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:29,480
Speaker 1: too because you're like, well, funk, am I is this

630
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:31,760
Speaker 1: the right thing? Am I doing this? Because it feels

631
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:33,719
Speaker 1: much more chaotic. I mean not to not to bring

632
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:37,520
Speaker 1: this up again, but a recent example of this is

633
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:41,680
Speaker 1: you know the thing that happened at the oscars right

634
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:47,160
Speaker 1: where everybody was like, oh, he didn't apologize fifteen minutes

635
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:49,879
Speaker 1: after it happened, and it was like, how many fights

636
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:51,719
Speaker 1: have you been and when you apologize for ten minutes

637
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:55,520
Speaker 1: after it happened? None, right, like talking to something about

638
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:59,360
Speaker 1: your wife and all the context today like this is

639
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:02,239
Speaker 1: a this is already fucking weird, y'all. Yeah, and like

640
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 1: so so when the apology came the next day, it

641
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:06,920
Speaker 1: was like, oh, well he didn't apologize like the man did.

642
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:11,560
Speaker 1: Couldn't have twelve hours to like realize what happened. Calm down,

643
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 1: you know, all these things, and it's it's a very

644
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 1: it was a very weird thing where you know, everybody

645
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:25,320
Speaker 1: expects you to like come through the full circle realization immediately,

646
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:30,840
Speaker 1: where hours is too long. Yeah yeah, yeah, like we

647
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:34,480
Speaker 1: were beings that exist in time and we like metabolize

648
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:36,800
Speaker 1: things in time. I mean I even think about like

649
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:40,520
Speaker 1: the kind of the form that the apology often takes

650
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:43,920
Speaker 1: when someone does something that they regret later or get

651
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:47,680
Speaker 1: called out on later, the apology is often that doesn't

652
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:52,279
Speaker 1: reflect who I am right right when I feel like

653
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:54,640
Speaker 1: the part that's missing is like, but it does reflect

654
00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:58,440
Speaker 1: who I was when I did it. Right, You're like, no,

655
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:00,560
Speaker 1: that that was me. You're right, and I don't want

656
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:05,600
Speaker 1: to be that anymore. Yeah, that that's uh. I really

657
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:08,040
Speaker 1: always like encourage people, especially like even in my own

658
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:11,360
Speaker 1: friend group, people also project this sort of like instant

659
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:15,719
Speaker 1: change or like lack of grace for themselves. Like you know,

660
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:17,000
Speaker 1: like I see it all the time, like I can't

661
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:20,840
Speaker 1: believe I did that, and it's like, yo, go easy,

662
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:24,439
Speaker 1: go fucking easy. You're in the fun. You're just as

663
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:28,239
Speaker 1: uh the radio legend big boy one day, Well, I

664
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:30,080
Speaker 1: used to work with the radio I fucked up a

665
00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:32,359
Speaker 1: phote like a recording because my phone went off during

666
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:35,720
Speaker 1: an interview with Future and I was like, I'm so sorry.

667
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:38,200
Speaker 1: I can't believe I did that. I apologize so much.

668
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:40,879
Speaker 1: And he's like, it's all good man. He's like, you're

669
00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:43,920
Speaker 1: just paying your tuition to the School of Experience, That's

670
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:46,480
Speaker 1: what he said. And I was I thought he was

671
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:48,279
Speaker 1: gonna suck me up like I thought. I was like,

672
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:50,239
Speaker 1: you know, I thought he was giving me looks. I

673
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:52,000
Speaker 1: was like, man, when this, when this is over, like

674
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:54,239
Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna hear it. And he was so

675
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:56,440
Speaker 1: cool about it, And that really stuck with me. Is

676
00:37:56,560 --> 00:38:00,239
Speaker 1: being able to re contextualize our mistakes. As you know,

677
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:02,919
Speaker 1: data gathering's the same I think goes alongside with people

678
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:05,400
Speaker 1: who are so entrenched in like the fear of failure too,

679
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:09,200
Speaker 1: is that you have to re contextualize what these things are.

680
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:11,960
Speaker 1: They're not failures that it indicate that you are a failure.

681
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:15,759
Speaker 1: That's just an experiment that went one way. And now

682
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:17,560
Speaker 1: you have a data set to work with, and now

683
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:20,080
Speaker 1: you you accumulate all this data, Trust me, you will

684
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 1: begin to see the matrix of it all and grow more. Yeah,

685
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:26,880
Speaker 1: I love that that Like, Yeah, showing compassion to ourselves

686
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:31,680
Speaker 1: so important. Yeah, it's so important because you know, I

687
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:35,439
Speaker 1: say this to friends as well, when when they're beating

688
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:38,319
Speaker 1: themselves up or or going through something, or even if

689
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 1: they're like not feeling well, like because we don't do

690
00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:43,680
Speaker 1: this when I say, you know, if I was not

691
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 1: feeling well, what would you tell me? You would tell

692
00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:47,880
Speaker 1: me go rest? Do all think you would have compassion

693
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:50,880
Speaker 1: for me. I have the same compassion for yourself. I

694
00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:54,680
Speaker 1: have the same compassion for yourself. We is different one.

695
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:58,960
Speaker 1: It's you because you are a decent person and I

696
00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:03,440
Speaker 1: am a piece of guard right exactly. That's why the

697
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:05,440
Speaker 1: most I can do is root for you in your

698
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:08,520
Speaker 1: time of need. Well, this is great, okay, So I mean, Jessica,

699
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:09,719
Speaker 1: I just I just want to I just want to

700
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:13,279
Speaker 1: roll right into your work. Right. So, we were constantly

701
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:17,400
Speaker 1: living in a world where we see discrimination discrimination abounds,

702
00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:21,640
Speaker 1: are cultural biases abound. I feel like, as it relates

703
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 1: to this show, we talk about forms of discrimination and

704
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:26,360
Speaker 1: bias a lot, and I think one thing that we

705
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:29,480
Speaker 1: talk about a lot is media bias and sort of

706
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:32,319
Speaker 1: the lens at which the stories of our world are

707
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:36,640
Speaker 1: being told through people who aren't necessarily engaging with it

708
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:39,640
Speaker 1: with the same steaks, so it begins to tinge their

709
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:42,439
Speaker 1: reporting in a way that we not. It's it doesn't

710
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:44,320
Speaker 1: end up really connecting to the people that need to

711
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:46,400
Speaker 1: hear it. So I guess, I mean, you know, this

712
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:49,399
Speaker 1: is like off of I think fifteen plus your years

713
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:52,520
Speaker 1: of research into this topic. I mean just generally. I

714
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 1: know I just said a bunch of other specific stuff,

715
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:57,000
Speaker 1: but I would love to hear kind of what your

716
00:39:57,080 --> 00:39:59,359
Speaker 1: journey was to to say, you know what, I want

717
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:02,880
Speaker 1: to dedicate some time to understanding this and like what

718
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:06,040
Speaker 1: what you've seen in terms of how we can move

719
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:10,200
Speaker 1: through or improve our situation. Yeah, it's um, that's a

720
00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:13,600
Speaker 1: big question. Uh yeah, So I you know, I got

721
00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 1: interested in this topic because of my own experience with

722
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:19,840
Speaker 1: gender bias in the working world. We could have a

723
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:22,920
Speaker 1: whole conversation just about that, but basically, you know, I

724
00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:27,200
Speaker 1: experienced bias because I'm a woman, and I had a

725
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:30,600
Speaker 1: particular moment where I was starting out as a journalist,

726
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:34,600
Speaker 1: sending out stories to editors and not hearing anything back,

727
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:38,560
Speaker 1: and I had this like desperate moment where I was like,

728
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:40,759
Speaker 1: if I don't if this pitch doesn't land, it's just

729
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:43,080
Speaker 1: gonna die. There was like only a small window of

730
00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:46,160
Speaker 1: opportunity to like make it, to make it land somewhere,

731
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:49,439
Speaker 1: and so I pitched the piece with a man's name

732
00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:54,120
Speaker 1: instead of my name, and that same piece that had

733
00:40:54,160 --> 00:41:00,840
Speaker 1: been ignored by everybody was immediately accepted for publication. And

734
00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:06,640
Speaker 1: so that was kind of like my begetting of starting

735
00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:08,440
Speaker 1: to really kind of think about this in a more

736
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:11,279
Speaker 1: systematic way, because I thought, well, that editor probably isn't

737
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:16,399
Speaker 1: like intentionally rejecting pitches by women and accepting pitches by men,

738
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:21,000
Speaker 1: but obviously there's something going on. And so that started

739
00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:25,000
Speaker 1: my really kind of like lifelong interest in and fascination

740
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:28,600
Speaker 1: with this topic, which is like, what is going on

741
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:31,440
Speaker 1: when people behave when they say one thing, when they

742
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:33,360
Speaker 1: say that they believe one thing, and they hold a

743
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:37,120
Speaker 1: certain set of values, but then they behave in a

744
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 1: different way. They behave in a way that conflicts with

745
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 1: those values. And so I started really writing about it,

746
00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:49,320
Speaker 1: reporting about it, kind of trying to understand it psychologically, developmentally, cognitively,

747
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:51,560
Speaker 1: like really trying to kind of get into what is

748
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:54,319
Speaker 1: going on here in in the mind as well as

749
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:57,400
Speaker 1: interpersonally and then, like, as you kind of brought up

750
00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:00,960
Speaker 1: earlier when we were talking, at one point, I just thought,

751
00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:05,480
Speaker 1: you know, I'm kind of I want to move beyond

752
00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:09,839
Speaker 1: discussing the problem. Like there's a lot of documentation. There

753
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:14,280
Speaker 1: are thousands of studies that documents gender biased, racial biased,

754
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:18,880
Speaker 1: you know, biases on the basis of sexual orientation, religion, disability.

755
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:22,880
Speaker 1: Like it is well documented across every field of human endeavor.

756
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:25,080
Speaker 1: So my question then was like what do we do

757
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:28,399
Speaker 1: about it? Is there something that can actually be done?

758
00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:32,239
Speaker 1: Or are we stuck just admiring the problem? And so

759
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:34,319
Speaker 1: that was like the genesis of this book was really

760
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:38,040
Speaker 1: me trying to answer that question, like what actually changes

761
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:42,719
Speaker 1: people's behavior right? And what so too? And why as

762
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:45,440
Speaker 1: you embark on that journey, like what did you have

763
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:48,000
Speaker 1: like a first sort of inclination or idea of you

764
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:50,719
Speaker 1: like my my gut is saying this is how we

765
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:52,440
Speaker 1: tackle it. And then did you end up learning a

766
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:54,440
Speaker 1: lot more about it you're like wow, like I'm so

767
00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:57,680
Speaker 1: far off, or maybe you actually, because of your research

768
00:42:57,760 --> 00:42:59,200
Speaker 1: into it, you were kind of on the right path.

769
00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:02,919
Speaker 1: I mean I really went in with casting a really

770
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:06,440
Speaker 1: wide net, like really kind of open to everything. You know,

771
00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:09,759
Speaker 1: and I had heard about certain approaches that worked, and

772
00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:11,680
Speaker 1: then I had heard, you know, there's certain approaches that

773
00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:13,840
Speaker 1: got pressed and then we're debunked, And so I was

774
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:17,160
Speaker 1: really just trying to get gathered as much data as possible.

775
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:21,879
Speaker 1: You know. I definitely went through kind of a dark

776
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:24,439
Speaker 1: night of the soul about halfway through the or maybe

777
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:26,239
Speaker 1: not quite halfway, maybe a third of the way through

778
00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:29,879
Speaker 1: the project where I had been doing devoting a lot

779
00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:32,920
Speaker 1: of time and energy to looking at individual kind of

780
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:35,840
Speaker 1: interventions like how what can happen so you and I

781
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:39,200
Speaker 1: can engage with each other in a humane and life

782
00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:43,960
Speaker 1: affirming away where we recognize each other's basic humanity and individuality.

783
00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:47,880
Speaker 1: And at some I remember like waking up at like

784
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:53,000
Speaker 1: two in the morning thinking it's the structures, you know,

785
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:57,880
Speaker 1: the structures are where we need to focus our effort,

786
00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:02,680
Speaker 1: and really asking myself, like, you know, doesn't make sense

787
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:07,600
Speaker 1: to focus on individuals, minds and hearts. And then I

788
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:12,239
Speaker 1: came to this understanding which I fully fully which I

789
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:17,000
Speaker 1: really fully feel, you know, is true that the two

790
00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:21,680
Speaker 1: cannot be separated, that the individual, what happens in our

791
00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:26,360
Speaker 1: minds and hearts is what creates our structures. It's what

792
00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:31,960
Speaker 1: causes us to support policies, uphold policies, vote for certain people,

793
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:35,680
Speaker 1: and then those policies and those laws and those larger

794
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:40,280
Speaker 1: structures in turn start to influence the way we think

795
00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:44,120
Speaker 1: and feel and react to one another as well. So

796
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:47,160
Speaker 1: that was one thing that if you're we're kind of

797
00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:50,600
Speaker 1: asking about, like did things change along the way, My

798
00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:53,920
Speaker 1: my feeling about the individual and the structural and how

799
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:57,680
Speaker 1: they relate has really evolved into seeing them as fully

800
00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:03,160
Speaker 1: you know, intertwined. You you know, I remember this was

801
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:06,880
Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe six seven years ago, uh with

802
00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:13,359
Speaker 1: somebody asked me, who are like some of your favorite actors? Right?

803
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:19,359
Speaker 1: And I rattled off like five or six names, all men, right,

804
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:23,320
Speaker 1: and and not even on purpose, I just you know,

805
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 1: that's just where my my thought process go. And she

806
00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:29,560
Speaker 1: looked at me, was like, I ain't no women you Like.

807
00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:33,879
Speaker 1: I was like, damn, yeah, there is there's a lot

808
00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:38,080
Speaker 1: Like why why why did I not just name a

809
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:42,919
Speaker 1: single woman, a single performer who is not a man?

810
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:46,800
Speaker 1: And I really started to like that got to me,

811
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:48,680
Speaker 1: like and and I don't think she mentioned it like

812
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:51,360
Speaker 1: a motherfucker unit and say no women. I think she

813
00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:53,759
Speaker 1: just like legitimately acts. And it really got to me

814
00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:57,760
Speaker 1: and started making me think, like, even in my field,

815
00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:02,799
Speaker 1: how we default to the bias of defaulting two men

816
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:07,720
Speaker 1: as the top performers or or you know, certain individuals

817
00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:12,440
Speaker 1: as or certain genres or certain things as valuable or

818
00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:15,719
Speaker 1: the top of the echelon, right, And and that's it.

819
00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:18,319
Speaker 1: It's just a bias because even just saying who are

820
00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:24,480
Speaker 1: your favorite actors automatically as a bias to male performers, right, right.

821
00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:28,759
Speaker 1: And it's it's wild, how you know, And and it's

822
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:30,919
Speaker 1: just you don't even think about that because, like said,

823
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:34,160
Speaker 1: the structure has you know, like the SAG Awards, that

824
00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:38,560
Speaker 1: award is called the Actor, right and these and these

825
00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:40,239
Speaker 1: are things and I don't think they're I don't think

826
00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:44,400
Speaker 1: you know, those things were put in place, you know, maliciously,

827
00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:48,600
Speaker 1: But the bias of the structure of it has led

828
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:51,360
Speaker 1: to if somebody asked you who is your favorite actor,

829
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:55,680
Speaker 1: most people, unfortunately, the first person they're gonna say is

830
00:46:55,719 --> 00:47:00,120
Speaker 1: a man. And and it's crazy because like it should like,

831
00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:03,600
Speaker 1: there is no there's no difference than like the performance

832
00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:07,279
Speaker 1: that a great performer gives with the bias. Well, and

833
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:10,120
Speaker 1: so it's a very interesting thing, I think too, to

834
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:15,040
Speaker 1: think about how the structure has ingrained these biases in us,

835
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:19,359
Speaker 1: and we know people like that you have you reflectively

836
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:23,719
Speaker 1: are reinforcing patriarchy or you're reflectively reinforcing white supremacy, and

837
00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:27,480
Speaker 1: people of color even do this because again, it's it

838
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:30,480
Speaker 1: becomes internalized in those structures. Are there. I'm really curious

839
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:34,280
Speaker 1: what you've seen as like sort of stories of success

840
00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:37,720
Speaker 1: or methods of success as it relates to a specific bias.

841
00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:40,560
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I'll allow you if there's something

842
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:43,880
Speaker 1: really interesting, uh, you know, because again I really do

843
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:46,640
Speaker 1: want everybody to hear that. Yeah, Okay, so I think

844
00:47:46,640 --> 00:47:49,120
Speaker 1: we're all on the same page about our biases and

845
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:53,680
Speaker 1: the how those reinforce existing structures of discrimination, etcetera. But

846
00:47:54,239 --> 00:47:57,279
Speaker 1: what what's so? What is that? What's that next path out?

847
00:47:57,400 --> 00:47:59,320
Speaker 1: Or what? What? What? What was your what did you

848
00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:02,839
Speaker 1: observe as writing this book? So there, I mean, there's

849
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:04,920
Speaker 1: there isn't well, I guess I would say there's not

850
00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:08,759
Speaker 1: like one silver bullet, but there are like a lot.

851
00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:13,000
Speaker 1: There are really a lot of approaches that has been

852
00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:16,640
Speaker 1: shown to change people's behavior. So one, for instance, that

853
00:48:16,719 --> 00:48:20,600
Speaker 1: I think is super interesting is about media actually, and

854
00:48:21,160 --> 00:48:23,440
Speaker 1: this is this is kind of a body of research

855
00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:27,640
Speaker 1: that was developed by a an American psychologist and a

856
00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:31,799
Speaker 1: French psychologist of Arab origin, and they were looking at

857
00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:35,240
Speaker 1: anti Arab prejudice in France, which is a really big problem.

858
00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:39,759
Speaker 1: And so what they were trying to figure out is

859
00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:43,960
Speaker 1: whether media reperenced certain kinds of media representations would change

860
00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:47,760
Speaker 1: the way French people who are not of Arab origin

861
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:52,719
Speaker 1: would interact with people of Arab origin. And so they

862
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:56,440
Speaker 1: did something really interesting, um where they they developed these

863
00:48:56,640 --> 00:49:00,440
Speaker 1: posters and on the posters they had a bunch of

864
00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:04,720
Speaker 1: faces and figures of people Arab people with their names

865
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:08,759
Speaker 1: and a description of that person. And on some of

866
00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:13,280
Speaker 1: the posters they were all like positive descriptions like optimistic, generous,

867
00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:17,480
Speaker 1: you know, friendly, et cetera. And on the other posters

868
00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:21,400
Speaker 1: they were more mixed. So it was like this person

869
00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:24,760
Speaker 1: is optimistic, this person is pessimistic, this person is stingy,

870
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:28,360
Speaker 1: this person is generous. Like it created a like a

871
00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:32,800
Speaker 1: really big a lot of diversity within that group of

872
00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:37,720
Speaker 1: of Arab people. And they found that when when folks

873
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:44,359
Speaker 1: were exposed to the diversity poster, not diversity like people

874
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:47,680
Speaker 1: of different ethnic origins, but like people within the Arab

875
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:50,759
Speaker 1: group being really really diverse and complex and different from

876
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:55,600
Speaker 1: each other that poster. Then, as a result of UM

877
00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:59,280
Speaker 1: spending time in the presence of that poster, people behaved

878
00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:02,360
Speaker 1: more positive of lee and less and of less discriminatory

879
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:06,480
Speaker 1: way toward Arab folks. And they tested this by like

880
00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:10,960
Speaker 1: having UM having the poster hanging like a physical therapy

881
00:50:11,040 --> 00:50:13,960
Speaker 1: office for several weeks, and then they would do a

882
00:50:14,040 --> 00:50:16,279
Speaker 1: test where a patient would come in and there'd be

883
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:19,239
Speaker 1: like a person of Arab origin sitting in the waiting room,

884
00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:21,120
Speaker 1: and they would look at how close the other person

885
00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:24,400
Speaker 1: sat next to them, things like that, or whether they

886
00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:27,080
Speaker 1: would help someone who had spilled like a bat a

887
00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:30,839
Speaker 1: purse full of you know, right. And So I think

888
00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:34,440
Speaker 1: this is really interesting because when we talk about like

889
00:50:34,640 --> 00:50:38,759
Speaker 1: representing diversity and media, they think we often think of

890
00:50:38,840 --> 00:50:41,000
Speaker 1: it as like you need to show you know, someone

891
00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:44,400
Speaker 1: from this social identity and someone from this social identity

892
00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:47,160
Speaker 1: and someone from this you know, different social identities. I

893
00:50:47,239 --> 00:50:49,799
Speaker 1: think what's really important is to actually show that within

894
00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:55,000
Speaker 1: any identity you have a massive variety and massive diversity,

895
00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:58,000
Speaker 1: because that starts to actually break down the kinds of

896
00:50:58,080 --> 00:51:02,160
Speaker 1: stereotypes that we have about on another and right sort

897
00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:05,200
Speaker 1: of taking down like these monolithic views we have of people,

898
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:08,279
Speaker 1: because I think, yeah, it is easy, especially when you

899
00:51:08,320 --> 00:51:13,400
Speaker 1: talk especially with marginalized groups that because they're marginalized, that

900
00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:15,960
Speaker 1: then they're they're they're then referred to as like this

901
00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:20,080
Speaker 1: monolith of just people that are all the same. But yeah,

902
00:51:20,120 --> 00:51:22,800
Speaker 1: that I didn't that in my in my mind, I

903
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:25,520
Speaker 1: was like, I guess that that helps because you're sort

904
00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:28,919
Speaker 1: of reinforcing this idea to somebody that's like, yes, people

905
00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:31,960
Speaker 1: are also diverse, just like in your group that you

906
00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:37,480
Speaker 1: identify with, exactly exactly, because like the human mind often

907
00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:41,320
Speaker 1: will think of their own group as being really diverse

908
00:51:41,560 --> 00:51:44,160
Speaker 1: and the other group as homogeneous. This is something that

909
00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:47,800
Speaker 1: just like we do psychologically, So breaking down that monolith,

910
00:51:47,920 --> 00:51:51,239
Speaker 1: that homogeneity, it just makes it a lot harder to

911
00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:55,960
Speaker 1: stereotype people, right, right, Okay, let's continue this conversation, but

912
00:51:56,040 --> 00:51:58,600
Speaker 1: let's take a quick break and we'll be back right

913
00:51:58,680 --> 00:52:11,960
Speaker 1: after this. And we're back and just continuing along with

914
00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:16,120
Speaker 1: this conversation. I wanted to ask about medical bias because

915
00:52:16,239 --> 00:52:19,680
Speaker 1: that's something recently, unfortunately, has been a topic in my

916
00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:24,080
Speaker 1: family because some diagnoses are not made properly, and you

917
00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:27,200
Speaker 1: can there's this is a very common problem with as

918
00:52:27,239 --> 00:52:31,320
Speaker 1: it relates to gender, perceived, gender identity, or race. And

919
00:52:31,719 --> 00:52:36,560
Speaker 1: I'm curious what what to do about medical biases too,

920
00:52:36,560 --> 00:52:39,640
Speaker 1: because I think that's something that probably affects many many people,

921
00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:43,200
Speaker 1: even if they're not really aware. It's a huge problem. Yeah,

922
00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:48,080
Speaker 1: I mean it's it's well documented that there are disparities

923
00:52:48,120 --> 00:52:52,600
Speaker 1: and treatment for women, for black people, for Latino people,

924
00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:57,480
Speaker 1: for many different different different groups. So one, you know,

925
00:52:57,560 --> 00:52:59,480
Speaker 1: there are there are a lot of different approaches, but

926
00:52:59,680 --> 00:53:02,560
Speaker 1: one I found really interesting and that had some really

927
00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:07,080
Speaker 1: good evidence behind it was something we might call structured

928
00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:11,000
Speaker 1: decision making or like behavioral design. So the idea here

929
00:53:11,160 --> 00:53:14,800
Speaker 1: is that instead of trying to change people's biases, you

930
00:53:15,120 --> 00:53:19,680
Speaker 1: change the context that they make decisions in. And so

931
00:53:19,800 --> 00:53:23,000
Speaker 1: in this case, there were a group of trauma surgeons

932
00:53:23,080 --> 00:53:27,560
Speaker 1: at Johns Hopkins Hospital who were concerned that patients weren't

933
00:53:27,560 --> 00:53:29,920
Speaker 1: getting adequate blood clock prevention when they were coming in

934
00:53:30,040 --> 00:53:33,680
Speaker 1: for trauma, and in order to try to improve that,

935
00:53:33,880 --> 00:53:38,080
Speaker 1: they started having doctors use a checklist approach. So instead

936
00:53:38,120 --> 00:53:40,320
Speaker 1: of just if I'm a doctor talking to you, instead

937
00:53:40,360 --> 00:53:42,560
Speaker 1: of just asking you questions and kind of deciding on

938
00:53:42,680 --> 00:53:45,400
Speaker 1: my own what treatment to give you. I would actually

939
00:53:45,719 --> 00:53:48,160
Speaker 1: use a computerized checklist where I had like, you know,

940
00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:51,320
Speaker 1: twenty five questions and it's the same question for every patient,

941
00:53:51,880 --> 00:53:54,319
Speaker 1: and then you know, I do check check, check, check, check,

942
00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:58,520
Speaker 1: and then the computer out the algorithm makes a suggestion about,

943
00:53:58,719 --> 00:54:00,800
Speaker 1: you know, what kind of treatment to get. And what

944
00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:04,239
Speaker 1: they found was that when this approach was used, this

945
00:54:04,360 --> 00:54:08,600
Speaker 1: kind of formal checklist approach, gaps between in this case,

946
00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:13,919
Speaker 1: women and men's treatment disappeared. Women and men actually began

947
00:54:14,040 --> 00:54:17,920
Speaker 1: getting the same level of blood clock prevention treatment. So

948
00:54:18,000 --> 00:54:20,080
Speaker 1: it's just about being like, let's take this to the

949
00:54:20,160 --> 00:54:24,640
Speaker 1: most objective place, which is these facts about this human

950
00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:30,520
Speaker 1: body that absolutely cannot be obscured by the doctor's own

951
00:54:30,560 --> 00:54:35,000
Speaker 1: biases or or what have you. That's okay, that's way

952
00:54:35,280 --> 00:54:37,560
Speaker 1: in a way, you're like, God, you know, that's the

953
00:54:37,600 --> 00:54:39,759
Speaker 1: part where the human, the human aspect comes into it,

954
00:54:39,840 --> 00:54:42,440
Speaker 1: because despite all of your medical training and you are

955
00:54:42,719 --> 00:54:46,799
Speaker 1: making those assessments, that there are moments where somehow, even

956
00:54:46,840 --> 00:54:49,760
Speaker 1: though you're saying the same thing maybe verbally versus a checklist,

957
00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:52,440
Speaker 1: you're arriving at a different outcome. I can I ask

958
00:54:52,480 --> 00:54:55,080
Speaker 1: the question and not to say like you have the

959
00:54:55,280 --> 00:54:58,480
Speaker 1: answer to this, but just in your research and in

960
00:54:58,560 --> 00:55:03,360
Speaker 1: your own opinion. Basically, like speaking medically, Let's say, you know,

961
00:55:03,400 --> 00:55:06,600
Speaker 1: because as a black person and who has a black mother, um,

962
00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:09,719
Speaker 1: and black women are and women and black women in

963
00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:15,040
Speaker 1: general are very discriminated and the biases that they go

964
00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:19,560
Speaker 1: through in the medical field or as patients are terrible.

965
00:55:20,440 --> 00:55:23,120
Speaker 1: And you know, I've gotten to the point, and I've

966
00:55:23,160 --> 00:55:25,600
Speaker 1: even told my mother this, and she advocates for herself

967
00:55:25,640 --> 00:55:28,080
Speaker 1: a lot that. Yo, if you see a new doctor

968
00:55:28,360 --> 00:55:31,399
Speaker 1: or even your doctor, you know, just tell them right away. Hey, look,

969
00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:35,279
Speaker 1: I'm gonna need you to go ahead and not do

970
00:55:35,480 --> 00:55:39,480
Speaker 1: the things that normally happen to us when we sit

971
00:55:39,560 --> 00:55:41,279
Speaker 1: in this chair. I'm gonna need you to not tell

972
00:55:41,360 --> 00:55:43,239
Speaker 1: me it's your show anxiety. I'm gonna need you to

973
00:55:43,320 --> 00:55:45,840
Speaker 1: tell me it's not this. It's not this I'm gonna have.

974
00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:47,879
Speaker 1: I'm gonna need you to tell me. I wonna needs

975
00:55:47,880 --> 00:55:50,239
Speaker 1: you to know this right up top right. And some

976
00:55:50,440 --> 00:55:54,480
Speaker 1: doctors or people in general take offense to that, right,

977
00:55:55,200 --> 00:55:58,839
Speaker 1: And what is it? What is it about our biases

978
00:55:58,960 --> 00:56:02,200
Speaker 1: where we don't want to see them, or we don't

979
00:56:02,280 --> 00:56:05,000
Speaker 1: want or if somebody calls us out on them, we

980
00:56:05,200 --> 00:56:08,040
Speaker 1: kinda you know, go into the shell and instead of

981
00:56:08,200 --> 00:56:12,799
Speaker 1: just hearing it and and start to make those steps forward. Two,

982
00:56:14,040 --> 00:56:17,040
Speaker 1: not do those things because you know, in some cases

983
00:56:17,160 --> 00:56:22,440
Speaker 1: your biases can be very dangerous, like the medical fields, right,

984
00:56:22,560 --> 00:56:24,839
Speaker 1: it's a matter of life and death for a lot

985
00:56:24,880 --> 00:56:28,080
Speaker 1: of people. So you would think somebody who has taken

986
00:56:28,120 --> 00:56:33,320
Speaker 1: the oath to save lives would be doing everything possible

987
00:56:33,440 --> 00:56:35,759
Speaker 1: to not have these biases. But if you tell them

988
00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:38,960
Speaker 1: they do, they take offense to that. I what what

989
00:56:39,160 --> 00:56:42,719
Speaker 1: What in your opinion allows that or doesn't allow that

990
00:56:42,840 --> 00:56:47,920
Speaker 1: breakthrough to happen. That's yeah, that is I mean, it's

991
00:56:47,960 --> 00:56:50,600
Speaker 1: a it's a huge it's a huge problem, you know,

992
00:56:50,680 --> 00:56:53,840
Speaker 1: people not being able to face what's going on in

993
00:56:53,920 --> 00:56:57,320
Speaker 1: their own minds. I think I think it has to

994
00:56:57,440 --> 00:56:59,799
Speaker 1: do with a couple of different things. I think one

995
00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:03,760
Speaker 1: is that people want to believe that they are good people,

996
00:57:04,760 --> 00:57:07,479
Speaker 1: and when they are confronted with the fact that they've

997
00:57:07,560 --> 00:57:10,440
Speaker 1: done something that could harm someone else or has harmed

998
00:57:10,520 --> 00:57:13,920
Speaker 1: someone else, it's like a threat to their sense of self,

999
00:57:15,320 --> 00:57:18,120
Speaker 1: their sense of who they are, their sense of themselves.

1000
00:57:18,200 --> 00:57:21,480
Speaker 1: Is a good person, and that is so upsetting to

1001
00:57:21,600 --> 00:57:28,480
Speaker 1: people that they sometimes will shut down, disengage, become super defensive,

1002
00:57:28,760 --> 00:57:31,240
Speaker 1: you know, just not be able to sit with the

1003
00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:35,480
Speaker 1: discomfort that that causes. Right. So, I mean, one of

1004
00:57:35,520 --> 00:57:37,600
Speaker 1: the things that I feel is really important I talked

1005
00:57:37,640 --> 00:57:40,360
Speaker 1: about it in the book, is like developing the skills,

1006
00:57:40,520 --> 00:57:44,080
Speaker 1: the emotional skills to be able to sit with the

1007
00:57:44,240 --> 00:57:48,760
Speaker 1: discomfort of seeing things about your own self that maybe

1008
00:57:48,800 --> 00:57:50,960
Speaker 1: you don't like to see, but you have to see

1009
00:57:51,040 --> 00:57:53,680
Speaker 1: because you can't change them if you don't look at them. Yeah,

1010
00:57:54,200 --> 00:57:57,920
Speaker 1: And to at least have that the the rigor or

1011
00:57:58,120 --> 00:57:59,560
Speaker 1: just to be brave enough to say, I'm going to

1012
00:57:59,640 --> 00:58:02,920
Speaker 1: engage that process and I know I need to do

1013
00:58:03,000 --> 00:58:04,800
Speaker 1: if I'm if my goal is to actually be a

1014
00:58:04,880 --> 00:58:08,400
Speaker 1: more fully formed person, then I actually it's the discomfort

1015
00:58:08,760 --> 00:58:11,600
Speaker 1: of self awareness that I have to really sit with,

1016
00:58:11,640 --> 00:58:13,120
Speaker 1: because I think that is a big thing that we

1017
00:58:13,200 --> 00:58:16,320
Speaker 1: try to avoid. And even to your point about how

1018
00:58:16,400 --> 00:58:18,720
Speaker 1: we all inherently have this view of ourselves that we

1019
00:58:18,800 --> 00:58:22,160
Speaker 1: are good people and when something threatens that order, it's

1020
00:58:22,440 --> 00:58:26,640
Speaker 1: it's essentially an existential threat to our identity. And you see,

1021
00:58:26,680 --> 00:58:29,640
Speaker 1: I I really first realize this about myself as it

1022
00:58:29,680 --> 00:58:33,320
Speaker 1: relates to me and my own like relationships, right is

1023
00:58:33,520 --> 00:58:35,040
Speaker 1: this is like these are the This is how a

1024
00:58:35,080 --> 00:58:38,000
Speaker 1: lot of fights and like romantic relationships go down. A

1025
00:58:38,120 --> 00:58:41,240
Speaker 1: partner points something out to the other that they don't like,

1026
00:58:41,720 --> 00:58:45,400
Speaker 1: and the other person takes that immediately as I'm not worthy,

1027
00:58:45,640 --> 00:58:49,160
Speaker 1: I'm not good, I'm fucked up. So then now your

1028
00:58:49,240 --> 00:58:53,880
Speaker 1: rebuttal is now completely powered by all of this fucking defensiveness,

1029
00:58:53,920 --> 00:58:56,120
Speaker 1: as you're saying, because now you're in the fight for

1030
00:58:56,240 --> 00:59:00,200
Speaker 1: your fucking identity. Rather than hearing, yeah, you know what,

1031
00:59:00,400 --> 00:59:02,360
Speaker 1: maybe I should, I could, I could be a little

1032
00:59:02,400 --> 00:59:06,000
Speaker 1: bit better about taking the garbage out, rather than being like,

1033
00:59:06,200 --> 00:59:07,840
Speaker 1: what are you trying to say? I do all this

1034
00:59:07,960 --> 00:59:09,840
Speaker 1: ship for you and blah blah blah, and it's like,

1035
00:59:09,920 --> 00:59:11,840
Speaker 1: that's not that's not how it needed to be heard.

1036
00:59:11,880 --> 00:59:13,919
Speaker 1: And to the point of being giving yourself some grace

1037
00:59:14,040 --> 00:59:16,480
Speaker 1: is to say, let me hear that I know if

1038
00:59:16,480 --> 00:59:18,200
Speaker 1: i'm if this person is a good partner to me.

1039
00:59:18,240 --> 00:59:19,880
Speaker 1: I know they're not trying to talk to me, they're

1040
00:59:19,920 --> 00:59:22,720
Speaker 1: just expressing their needs to me. And then you say, okay,

1041
00:59:22,760 --> 00:59:24,920
Speaker 1: can I say with that, can I find is there

1042
00:59:24,960 --> 00:59:26,720
Speaker 1: truth to what they're saying, and am I okay with

1043
00:59:26,840 --> 00:59:29,400
Speaker 1: acknowledging that there is an opportunity for me to add

1044
00:59:29,520 --> 00:59:33,240
Speaker 1: something to you know, yeah, and just pointing out, Yeah,

1045
00:59:33,360 --> 00:59:36,160
Speaker 1: the fact that this error of my thinking or you know,

1046
00:59:36,320 --> 00:59:39,360
Speaker 1: flaw in my reaction was pointed out doesn't mean that

1047
00:59:39,440 --> 00:59:44,480
Speaker 1: I am inherently unlovable. I think the fears comes from.

1048
00:59:44,520 --> 00:59:47,360
Speaker 1: That's where it feeling, right, like that there's something so

1049
00:59:47,480 --> 00:59:52,520
Speaker 1: wrong with me. I am unlovable? Yeah, And it's truly

1050
00:59:52,640 --> 00:59:54,520
Speaker 1: just like the real this the switch you just have

1051
00:59:54,640 --> 00:59:57,880
Speaker 1: to flip is yeah, you're you're worthy. Every you're worthy,

1052
00:59:58,040 --> 01:00:00,360
Speaker 1: Like that's the floor, right, The flo or is that

1053
01:00:00,440 --> 01:00:03,640
Speaker 1: you're worthy, So we're not going below worthiness unless you're

1054
01:00:03,720 --> 01:00:06,520
Speaker 1: like an absolutely deplorable even being, but that's the floor.

1055
01:00:06,720 --> 01:00:11,120
Speaker 1: It almost seems that like the being able to sit

1056
01:00:11,280 --> 01:00:16,200
Speaker 1: in that discomfort and being able to have a self

1057
01:00:16,440 --> 01:00:20,520
Speaker 1: worth that if you know, something uncomfortable is said to

1058
01:00:20,680 --> 01:00:23,200
Speaker 1: me or I need to live in that that I'm

1059
01:00:23,320 --> 01:00:28,440
Speaker 1: still worthy of ABC or things like that is almost

1060
01:00:28,520 --> 01:00:30,960
Speaker 1: it almost feels like that's one of the first steps

1061
01:00:31,000 --> 01:00:34,560
Speaker 1: to get in past and getting over like your biases, right,

1062
01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:38,960
Speaker 1: because about that, like you can't how are how can you.

1063
01:00:39,400 --> 01:00:43,400
Speaker 1: You know, mistakes are okay, mistakes are part of the experience.

1064
01:00:43,560 --> 01:00:46,320
Speaker 1: It's but it's what you're doing with the mistakes is

1065
01:00:46,480 --> 01:00:49,720
Speaker 1: what is the differentiating factor? Are you doubling down and

1066
01:00:49,920 --> 01:00:53,160
Speaker 1: denying that you are a fucking work in progress? Are

1067
01:00:53,240 --> 01:00:56,200
Speaker 1: you willing to be a bit of explorer and look

1068
01:00:56,240 --> 01:00:58,600
Speaker 1: at your own life? Is something that builds on itself,

1069
01:00:58,760 --> 01:01:01,880
Speaker 1: and you know, you're just increasing the knowledge that you're

1070
01:01:02,160 --> 01:01:05,480
Speaker 1: standing on rather because if if you're able to acknowledge

1071
01:01:05,520 --> 01:01:07,560
Speaker 1: that there's something for me to learn, you're actually adding

1072
01:01:07,640 --> 01:01:10,800
Speaker 1: wisdom to your experience. And that's the difference. It's when

1073
01:01:10,840 --> 01:01:14,520
Speaker 1: you deny that, that's when you have the wisdom. Is

1074
01:01:14,640 --> 01:01:17,560
Speaker 1: that is not wisdom. Wisdom is being able to have

1075
01:01:17,760 --> 01:01:20,480
Speaker 1: that grace and say, hm, that is interesting. I do

1076
01:01:20,640 --> 01:01:22,800
Speaker 1: need to look at that, and if it makes me uncomfortable,

1077
01:01:22,800 --> 01:01:24,240
Speaker 1: I can look at that a little bit more. But

1078
01:01:24,360 --> 01:01:28,000
Speaker 1: also know that by engaging with this, I'm this is

1079
01:01:28,040 --> 01:01:31,320
Speaker 1: an additive process. There's nothing that's being taken away by

1080
01:01:31,480 --> 01:01:35,760
Speaker 1: engaging in it. That's beautiful and it's expansive. It's expanding.

1081
01:01:35,920 --> 01:01:38,920
Speaker 1: I mean, I can tell you that like my this

1082
01:01:39,040 --> 01:01:41,959
Speaker 1: is like I went through a lot writing this book.

1083
01:01:42,120 --> 01:01:44,600
Speaker 1: Of having to look at my own biases, like every

1084
01:01:44,680 --> 01:01:46,880
Speaker 1: kind of bias, like there was nowhere to hide for me.

1085
01:01:47,360 --> 01:01:49,240
Speaker 1: You know I'm writing, I'm writing about this like I

1086
01:01:49,320 --> 01:01:52,320
Speaker 1: can't run away from it. But I will tell you

1087
01:01:52,520 --> 01:01:57,120
Speaker 1: that it has been so life altering to look at

1088
01:01:57,200 --> 01:02:00,240
Speaker 1: those and to deal with them and to face them

1089
01:02:00,360 --> 01:02:02,520
Speaker 1: and to work on them. In terms of like my

1090
01:02:02,640 --> 01:02:07,600
Speaker 1: relationships with other people like I, the level of like

1091
01:02:07,920 --> 01:02:12,440
Speaker 1: trust and just the depth of the relationships is so

1092
01:02:12,600 --> 01:02:18,480
Speaker 1: much stronger because of that, that that process, right and

1093
01:02:18,560 --> 01:02:20,960
Speaker 1: that willingness, because I mean, yeah, if you're if you're

1094
01:02:20,960 --> 01:02:22,919
Speaker 1: able to be kind to yourself, you like you said,

1095
01:02:23,400 --> 01:02:26,439
Speaker 1: I it's like after I've gone when I was really

1096
01:02:26,520 --> 01:02:29,960
Speaker 1: struggling with my mental health and going to therapy and

1097
01:02:30,040 --> 01:02:32,520
Speaker 1: ship like that, my due the way I live is

1098
01:02:32,600 --> 01:02:36,040
Speaker 1: so different because I no longer navigate the world in

1099
01:02:36,120 --> 01:02:39,040
Speaker 1: this like sort of like on a wire being like

1100
01:02:39,160 --> 01:02:42,000
Speaker 1: oh fuck, like am I gonna fuck my whole life up?

1101
01:02:42,080 --> 01:02:44,040
Speaker 1: And I'm I'm not worthy of ship and I'll be

1102
01:02:44,120 --> 01:02:46,560
Speaker 1: abandoned because I've experienced certain things like that in my life.

1103
01:02:46,800 --> 01:02:48,520
Speaker 1: When you're able to move past that and be able

1104
01:02:48,560 --> 01:02:50,200
Speaker 1: to see it for what it is, you're able to

1105
01:02:50,280 --> 01:02:53,040
Speaker 1: love people more deeply, You're able to have deeper relationship

1106
01:02:53,120 --> 01:02:55,880
Speaker 1: with with with with your friends, communicate more directly with

1107
01:02:55,960 --> 01:02:57,720
Speaker 1: your friends. There's so much that opens up with that.

1108
01:02:57,840 --> 01:03:00,920
Speaker 1: But like we all say, just give yourself that floor

1109
01:03:01,320 --> 01:03:05,120
Speaker 1: that you're worthy and and and give yourself the room

1110
01:03:05,160 --> 01:03:07,000
Speaker 1: to funk up. And like, yeah, if you fuck up,

1111
01:03:07,040 --> 01:03:11,320
Speaker 1: apologize and that's fine. And it doesn't mean yeah, you're

1112
01:03:11,320 --> 01:03:14,800
Speaker 1: gonna be banished and completely ostracized and become a pariah. No,

1113
01:03:15,160 --> 01:03:17,600
Speaker 1: it's like everybody else you sunk up. But just own

1114
01:03:17,680 --> 01:03:20,000
Speaker 1: that ship and really figure out how you can move

1115
01:03:20,120 --> 01:03:24,320
Speaker 1: through that. And that's there's the wisdom right there. All right, Um, Jessica,

1116
01:03:24,400 --> 01:03:26,720
Speaker 1: thank you so much for for joining us. This was

1117
01:03:26,760 --> 01:03:30,520
Speaker 1: a fucking fantastic conversation we just had. We'd love to

1118
01:03:30,600 --> 01:03:32,960
Speaker 1: have you back. Where can people find you and follow you?

1119
01:03:33,080 --> 01:03:35,600
Speaker 1: Support you? Here? You it was such it was just

1120
01:03:35,720 --> 01:03:38,640
Speaker 1: so much. It was wonderful talking too. So you can

1121
01:03:38,720 --> 01:03:42,960
Speaker 1: find me on my website Jessica Nordell dot com. I'm

1122
01:03:42,960 --> 01:03:45,840
Speaker 1: on Twitter at jess Nordell. If you're in l A,

1123
01:03:46,160 --> 01:03:47,880
Speaker 1: I'll be at the l A Times Book Festival in

1124
01:03:47,960 --> 01:03:50,960
Speaker 1: a couple of weeks doing a panel on parenting during

1125
01:03:51,000 --> 01:03:55,200
Speaker 1: the social upheaval people who could use that. And then

1126
01:03:55,320 --> 01:03:58,040
Speaker 1: in the fall, I'll be doing a tour for for

1127
01:03:58,120 --> 01:03:59,960
Speaker 1: when the paperback comes out, so you'll be able to

1128
01:04:00,160 --> 01:04:05,000
Speaker 1: finding for sure. And is there a tweet or some

1129
01:04:05,160 --> 01:04:08,160
Speaker 1: of their social media posting that you've enjoyed that you'd

1130
01:04:08,200 --> 01:04:10,920
Speaker 1: like to share with us? You know, yes, and it

1131
01:04:11,040 --> 01:04:13,320
Speaker 1: relates a lot to what we were just talking about.

1132
01:04:13,720 --> 01:04:17,040
Speaker 1: This is a quote. It's attributed to Winston Churchill, but

1133
01:04:17,160 --> 01:04:19,640
Speaker 1: that might be apocryphal. I'm not sure if it's actually him,

1134
01:04:20,000 --> 01:04:21,920
Speaker 1: but it's it's such a great, a great quote. I

1135
01:04:21,960 --> 01:04:27,080
Speaker 1: actually just tweeted it myself and the quote is success

1136
01:04:28,520 --> 01:04:31,880
Speaker 1: is being able to go from failure to failure with

1137
01:04:32,120 --> 01:04:37,640
Speaker 1: no loss of enthusiasm. Wow, that's true. Unleash your inner

1138
01:04:37,720 --> 01:04:42,000
Speaker 1: SoundCloud rapper, folks, you know, don't let them tell you

1139
01:04:42,240 --> 01:04:45,360
Speaker 1: it's bad. You keep going. It doesn't matter because about you.

1140
01:04:45,440 --> 01:04:48,000
Speaker 1: That's so true though, that that is such a You

1141
01:04:48,080 --> 01:04:51,120
Speaker 1: can see how much people lose momentum just from the

1142
01:04:51,240 --> 01:04:54,600
Speaker 1: wrong word or you know, a weird right up or something.

1143
01:04:54,720 --> 01:04:58,080
Speaker 1: And yeah, that I don't let the momentum for sure,

1144
01:04:58,560 --> 01:05:00,720
Speaker 1: that it came up because I was set south By

1145
01:05:00,760 --> 01:05:02,440
Speaker 1: Southwest a couple of weeks ago, and there was a

1146
01:05:02,520 --> 01:05:05,960
Speaker 1: panel that I stopped in at which was about failure

1147
01:05:06,000 --> 01:05:09,080
Speaker 1: for artists, and it was packed. It was like every

1148
01:05:09,560 --> 01:05:12,280
Speaker 1: five year old in within like you know, a radius

1149
01:05:12,360 --> 01:05:14,440
Speaker 1: of ten miles was packed in that room, like how

1150
01:05:14,480 --> 01:05:17,200
Speaker 1: do you deal with failure? And a lot of people were,

1151
01:05:17,360 --> 01:05:19,840
Speaker 1: you know, talking about it. And I ended up talking

1152
01:05:19,880 --> 01:05:23,240
Speaker 1: to this one like young musician who was really struggling,

1153
01:05:23,800 --> 01:05:27,280
Speaker 1: and I just share with him that this, this attitude

1154
01:05:27,440 --> 01:05:29,000
Speaker 1: is what has helped me, you know, in my own

1155
01:05:29,040 --> 01:05:32,520
Speaker 1: creative journey so much, like just realizing that the failure

1156
01:05:32,680 --> 01:05:34,960
Speaker 1: it's not the end of anything. It's just as you

1157
01:05:35,040 --> 01:05:37,240
Speaker 1: pointed up, it's just another piece of data. It's the

1158
01:05:37,320 --> 01:05:40,160
Speaker 1: tuition you're paying for the school of experience. You just

1159
01:05:40,240 --> 01:05:41,800
Speaker 1: move on to the next thing. I guess what, You

1160
01:05:41,800 --> 01:05:43,920
Speaker 1: won't have student loans if you keep paying your tuition

1161
01:05:44,480 --> 01:05:46,720
Speaker 1: school of your experience. You know, there's a whole it's

1162
01:05:46,760 --> 01:05:48,760
Speaker 1: it's right there for you. And it's the other thing, too,

1163
01:05:48,920 --> 01:05:50,800
Speaker 1: is like this metaphor, it lights the river, right, you

1164
01:05:50,880 --> 01:05:53,760
Speaker 1: gotta just let the river take you. But the rivers

1165
01:05:53,800 --> 01:05:56,440
Speaker 1: have rocks and fucking snags and ship in the river

1166
01:05:56,600 --> 01:05:58,480
Speaker 1: that you can get hung up on, like which our

1167
01:05:58,640 --> 01:06:01,760
Speaker 1: tribulations are failures. But are you gonna hang onto that

1168
01:06:01,840 --> 01:06:04,080
Speaker 1: fucking rock or you're gonna let the river keep taking

1169
01:06:04,120 --> 01:06:06,080
Speaker 1: you where the scenery will change because a lot of

1170
01:06:06,200 --> 01:06:09,240
Speaker 1: us we stay stuck holding onto rocks and ship when

1171
01:06:09,280 --> 01:06:11,760
Speaker 1: we realize if you just let go, the scenery will

1172
01:06:11,840 --> 01:06:14,480
Speaker 1: change because the river has no choice but to take

1173
01:06:14,560 --> 01:06:17,240
Speaker 1: you there unless it's Dwayne the Rock jobs and then

1174
01:06:17,280 --> 01:06:21,760
Speaker 1: I'm holding Dayne holding onto Dwayne the Rock. Well I would.

1175
01:06:22,440 --> 01:06:24,280
Speaker 1: I changed my middle name to Rocky for my eighth

1176
01:06:24,320 --> 01:06:28,000
Speaker 1: grade graduation because you know, anybody who was like Glasian

1177
01:06:28,080 --> 01:06:30,480
Speaker 1: I was rooting for us a kid. Jackies, thank you

1178
01:06:30,600 --> 01:06:33,720
Speaker 1: so much for joining me today. Where can people find you?

1179
01:06:33,880 --> 01:06:35,960
Speaker 1: Follow you? And what's that tweet that you like? Ah?

1180
01:06:36,200 --> 01:06:38,439
Speaker 1: You know, you know what it is? You can find

1181
01:06:38,520 --> 01:06:42,520
Speaker 1: me in these streets everybody, Uh, and at Jackie's neel

1182
01:06:42,640 --> 01:06:45,000
Speaker 1: on everything, Jessica, I just want to say, this was

1183
01:06:45,720 --> 01:06:50,680
Speaker 1: beautiful conversation. It was great. I think probably I don't know,

1184
01:06:50,760 --> 01:06:53,320
Speaker 1: I've guest hosted or been on the show well over

1185
01:06:53,400 --> 01:06:58,280
Speaker 1: like times now, and probably my favorite conversation I've had

1186
01:06:58,520 --> 01:07:00,920
Speaker 1: on the Night Guy. So it was a pleasure to

1187
01:07:01,200 --> 01:07:03,919
Speaker 1: talk to you, so thank you so much. A couple. Also,

1188
01:07:04,080 --> 01:07:07,120
Speaker 1: before I get to a tweet, I know I I

1189
01:07:07,240 --> 01:07:11,600
Speaker 1: was on all last week and I promoted the Comedian Feud.

1190
01:07:12,160 --> 01:07:14,520
Speaker 1: It's also doubt everybody I sold out in less than

1191
01:07:14,600 --> 01:07:17,760
Speaker 1: a week. Uh So if you are in l A

1192
01:07:17,880 --> 01:07:19,680
Speaker 1: and you want to come, there will be some door

1193
01:07:19,760 --> 01:07:23,200
Speaker 1: cells on Mother's Day from May eight, but it will

1194
01:07:23,240 --> 01:07:25,160
Speaker 1: be a monthly show. I'm gonna do this monthly. They

1195
01:07:25,280 --> 01:07:27,880
Speaker 1: asked me immediately to make this a monthly show, so

1196
01:07:28,280 --> 01:07:30,760
Speaker 1: there'll be some chances to come to Comedian FEUs. So

1197
01:07:30,920 --> 01:07:35,320
Speaker 1: definitely do that. Physical Season two on Apple TV just

1198
01:07:35,440 --> 01:07:38,560
Speaker 1: got this release date June three. Oh, be in that

1199
01:07:38,760 --> 01:07:41,960
Speaker 1: upcoming season, so be on the lookout for that. Uh

1200
01:07:42,560 --> 01:07:47,280
Speaker 1: And some tweets. This is from at Chicago History. I

1201
01:07:47,360 --> 01:07:51,320
Speaker 1: gotta I got three where it says I'm from Chicago,

1202
01:07:51,960 --> 01:07:54,640
Speaker 1: where people say follow me and then hop on the

1203
01:07:54,720 --> 01:07:56,919
Speaker 1: Dan Ryan and start doing a hundred and twenty miles

1204
01:07:56,960 --> 01:08:04,800
Speaker 1: per hour. Very true. Very that is about the truest

1205
01:08:04,880 --> 01:08:07,720
Speaker 1: thing I've ever read about Chicago people in my life.

1206
01:08:09,280 --> 01:08:12,200
Speaker 1: Very funny. Also, Uh, this is more of a shout

1207
01:08:12,240 --> 01:08:16,400
Speaker 1: out tweet than anything, but the Queen the icon Jack Harry.

1208
01:08:17,040 --> 01:08:19,719
Speaker 1: Twenty eight years ago, The l A Times reviews Sister

1209
01:08:19,840 --> 01:08:22,599
Speaker 1: Sister and referred to it as hardly an epic comedy.

1210
01:08:23,120 --> 01:08:26,080
Speaker 1: I say, are staying power on Netflix, Hulu and Amazon

1211
01:08:26,240 --> 01:08:30,160
Speaker 1: Prime have proved that statement to be bunk. Happy anniversary

1212
01:08:30,240 --> 01:08:33,160
Speaker 1: to us twenty years ago, Sister Sister, and it is

1213
01:08:33,560 --> 01:08:36,280
Speaker 1: every bit as much of an iconic show. Such a

1214
01:08:36,320 --> 01:08:38,600
Speaker 1: good show, I know, twenty years ago pretty wild. So

1215
01:08:38,680 --> 01:08:42,040
Speaker 1: shout out became that Matt Damon gift from Saving Private

1216
01:08:42,120 --> 01:08:45,000
Speaker 1: Ryan where he turns like seven years old, right exactly,

1217
01:08:45,200 --> 01:08:48,080
Speaker 1: it's almost thirty years ago. I don't like it. And

1218
01:08:48,200 --> 01:08:52,240
Speaker 1: last tweet, this is very funny from at Marianna oh

1219
01:08:52,320 --> 01:08:55,519
Speaker 1: five seven. I don't know why is iron Man called

1220
01:08:55,640 --> 01:09:04,000
Speaker 1: iron Man and not fe male, because fy I thought

1221
01:09:04,080 --> 01:09:09,360
Speaker 1: that was brilliant, brilliant, brilliant. Shout out to my shout

1222
01:09:09,400 --> 01:09:14,080
Speaker 1: out to my periodic table fans out there, quick, yes,

1223
01:09:14,720 --> 01:09:17,920
Speaker 1: oh my god, un that's it. I don't know why

1224
01:09:17,920 --> 01:09:21,200
Speaker 1: I remember that, but I hated I hated chemistry. I'm

1225
01:09:21,200 --> 01:09:23,920
Speaker 1: not the one. It was terrible stickcheometry, So I fucking

1226
01:09:24,600 --> 01:09:26,919
Speaker 1: it's math, But I don't know what a valance electron

1227
01:09:27,080 --> 01:09:29,880
Speaker 1: is so fun this. Let's talk about some tweets. I

1228
01:09:30,000 --> 01:09:33,200
Speaker 1: like some tweets I like, uh, let's see the the

1229
01:09:33,720 --> 01:09:36,240
Speaker 1: oh Mike Drucker at Mike Drucker tweeted, I like when

1230
01:09:36,280 --> 01:09:40,600
Speaker 1: assassin's whisper as they help a dying body to the

1231
01:09:40,640 --> 01:09:42,840
Speaker 1: floor because they never need to be that nice, but

1232
01:09:42,960 --> 01:09:46,519
Speaker 1: professionalism matters. I just like that sentiment about an assassin.

1233
01:09:46,920 --> 01:09:50,240
Speaker 1: And then, speaking of feeling old at, Jill Krajowski tweeted

1234
01:09:50,439 --> 01:09:53,679
Speaker 1: the yeah, yeah, yeahs Maps is nineteen. That's old enough

1235
01:09:53,760 --> 01:09:56,519
Speaker 1: to have their heartbroken so bad they need to listen

1236
01:09:56,600 --> 01:10:00,760
Speaker 1: to Maps, which really got me because damn, I was

1237
01:10:01,520 --> 01:10:05,960
Speaker 1: I love you like I love you? Waituh shout out

1238
01:10:05,960 --> 01:10:09,639
Speaker 1: to feel it fairt Wait, what's a Karen Karen? Oh,

1239
01:10:09,880 --> 01:10:12,360
Speaker 1: that's who it is. You can find me at Miles

1240
01:10:12,479 --> 01:10:15,799
Speaker 1: of Gray on Twitter and uh what is that Instagram?

1241
01:10:15,920 --> 01:10:19,080
Speaker 1: Yeah for sure and the new basketball podcast Mad Boost

1242
01:10:19,160 --> 01:10:21,880
Speaker 1: Ease with Jack uh and also four twenty Day Fiance

1243
01:10:21,960 --> 01:10:24,559
Speaker 1: if you like ninety Day Fiance and Married at First Sight,

1244
01:10:24,760 --> 01:10:26,960
Speaker 1: That's where we hang out and get high talk about

1245
01:10:26,960 --> 01:10:30,679
Speaker 1: our favorite reality show. Um until then, find us Daily's

1246
01:10:30,720 --> 01:10:32,320
Speaker 1: like guys at Daly's like guys on Twitter at the

1247
01:10:32,400 --> 01:10:34,679
Speaker 1: Dailies like guys on Instagram, got the Facebook fan page

1248
01:10:34,680 --> 01:10:37,200
Speaker 1: and website, Daili's oys dot com work post, our episodes

1249
01:10:37,240 --> 01:10:41,000
Speaker 1: and our foot notes foot note thank you, where you

1250
01:10:41,040 --> 01:10:43,040
Speaker 1: can find the links to all the articles we talked

1251
01:10:43,080 --> 01:10:45,599
Speaker 1: about as well as the song we are writing out

1252
01:10:45,680 --> 01:10:48,720
Speaker 1: on today. I want to go out on just some

1253
01:10:48,880 --> 01:10:52,320
Speaker 1: more reggaeton, but from Spain. Again. I know, I know

1254
01:10:52,640 --> 01:10:55,439
Speaker 1: it's that that's not their thing, but this is an

1255
01:10:55,520 --> 01:11:00,439
Speaker 1: artist called and this track is called a Middle MS

1256
01:11:00,920 --> 01:11:03,320
Speaker 1: and it's uh, this one, this one was. This was

1257
01:11:03,400 --> 01:11:05,800
Speaker 1: kind of funny too. It's twisted. It's twisted, Okay, So

1258
01:11:06,000 --> 01:11:08,560
Speaker 1: check out that track. Uh, and we'll talk to you

1259
01:11:08,720 --> 01:11:10,840
Speaker 1: later to tell you what's trending. Until then, we'll see

1260
01:11:10,880 --> 01:11:11,360
Speaker 1: a bite