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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group, or if you've had

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Speaker 1: an experience with manipulation or abusive power you'd like to share,

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Speaker 1: leave us a message on our hotline number at five

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Speaker 1: one three nine hundred two nine five five, or.

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Speaker 2: Shoot us an email at trust Me pod at gmail

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Speaker 2: dot com.

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Speaker 3: Trust me, Trust trust Me.

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Speaker 4: I'm like a swat person.

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Speaker 3: I've never lived.

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Speaker 1: To you, I never If you think that one person

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Speaker 1: has all the answers, don't welcome to Trust Me. The

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Speaker 1: podcast about cults, extreme belief and the abusive power from

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Speaker 1: two non narcissists who've actually experienced it. I am Lola

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Speaker 1: Blanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth. And are we sure we're

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Speaker 1: non narcissist?

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Speaker 2: I mean I admitted in the show that I might

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Speaker 2: be a narcissist with I mean I have.

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Speaker 1: A little tendency. I feel like you're definitely not a

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Speaker 1: narcissist because you like cry at the drop of a

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Speaker 1: hat when you feel empathy for and true.

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Speaker 3: Okay, okay, true.

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Speaker 1: But you guys, you can listen to the episode and

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Speaker 1: you will learn more about whether or not Megan is narcissist. Today,

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Speaker 1: our guest is doctor Rominie Dervasi, also known as just

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Speaker 1: doctor Rominey. She is a psychologist and an expert on narcissism.

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Speaker 1: So she's going to talk to us about all things

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Speaker 1: related to narcissists, what the signs are, whether they're born

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Speaker 1: that way, the difference between narcissism and psychopathy, and so

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Speaker 1: much more.

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Speaker 2: We'll also discuss how many cult leaders she thinks are narcissists,

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Speaker 2: whether we can help them or help prevent kids from

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Speaker 2: becoming them, and why you shouldn't blame yourself if you've

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Speaker 2: ended up in a relationship of any kind WI One.

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Speaker 1: All that and so much more there. This is an

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Speaker 1: information packed episode. Get your pen and paper for real.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes people listen to episodes on one and a half

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Speaker 1: speed of podcasts or whatever. I feel like you should listen

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Speaker 1: to this on zero point seventy five speed because there

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Speaker 1: is a lot. Slow it down and process it, work

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Speaker 1: it out all right before we dive in. Uh huh,

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Speaker 1: she's so amazing. Megan, Kindly, would you please delby what

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Speaker 1: is the coldiest thing that's happened to you this week?

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean the guest that we had today. If

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Speaker 2: she had a quote.

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Speaker 1: Adjoin it, Yes, you would.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess that's for the end of the episode.

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Speaker 2: But just researching her for this episode. She's somebody I've

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Speaker 2: followed for a long time, but then just last night

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Speaker 2: kind of looking more into her videos and the you know,

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Speaker 2: the YouTube comment sections. It's just so interesting to see

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Speaker 2: the cult of psychology and how it plays out and

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Speaker 2: how people are like the DAS five says blad and

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Speaker 2: somebody's like, but the DSM four said blah blah blah,

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Speaker 2: and this man wrote that one, and it's just like

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Speaker 2: I know the answer. I know the answer. It's only

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Speaker 2: one thing, and it's just like these are all lenses

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Speaker 2: that you can use.

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Speaker 1: Well, yeah, the DSM four has so much like incredibly

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Speaker 1: outdated information in there, and that even the DSM five,

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Speaker 1: I'm like, personally, I cannot wait for the future of

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Speaker 1: psychology when we were just done way, way, way more research.

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Speaker 1: We have a more holistic understanding of disorders or whether

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Speaker 1: we should even call them disorders, because like there is

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Speaker 1: just so much that we don't understand. However, looking at

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Speaker 1: research is important, Absolutely, it is very important. Yes, yeah,

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Speaker 1: but I feel you My friend Sonya and I get

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Speaker 1: into arguments about psychology stuff all the time, She's like, well,

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Speaker 1: anxious attachment is like this, and I'm like, well, I

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Speaker 1: disagree because I read this stuff. And we're like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: either of us. We're not experts, right. Do I intend

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Speaker 1: to one day get a degree in psychology? Yes I do,

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Speaker 1: but I don't have it yet, folks. And even when

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Speaker 1: I do, it is supposed to be a science. And

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Speaker 1: the whole thing about science is that it is you're

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Speaker 1: trying to be wrong so that you can get to

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Speaker 1: the truth. Yes, right, I mean I praise that poorly,

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Speaker 1: but you know what I mean. Yeah, yeah, And you

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Speaker 1: totally would join her cult because you have been just

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Speaker 1: privately texting me and talking to me about how obsessed

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Speaker 1: you already talked to Rominy. Yeah, she's big on the internet, folks.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you know, but she's like, she's

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Speaker 1: like a pretty bazy.

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Speaker 2: She's like a Tom Hanks cup of hot cocoa to

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Speaker 2: my soul.

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't have described her that way, but you know.

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Speaker 2: What, but you do know what I mean, don't you

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Speaker 2: You all do?

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Speaker 1: What's the cultiest thing that.

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Speaker 3: Happened to you?

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Speaker 1: Okay, guys, I have a new music video. By the

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Speaker 1: time this episode comes out, I will have a new

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Speaker 1: music video out in the world. So this whole past

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Speaker 1: couple of weeks, I've been kind of in my own cults,

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Speaker 1: being an artist, being a music artist, also being a

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Speaker 1: fucking director or whatever.

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Speaker 3: Uh, you have to.

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Speaker 1: Spend so much time like answering questions about yourself and

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Speaker 1: like telling people what you're great and self promoting and

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Speaker 1: like trying to get more fans, and it's so annoying, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: I don't I don't want to spend hours of my

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Speaker 1: day thinking about like my fucking following. But unfortunately it's

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Speaker 1: sort of just a function of like being a creative

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Speaker 1: person who's trying to make your living that way, So

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Speaker 1: you run the cult of yourself, the cult of myself

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Speaker 1: one hundo. And also, I feel like we should end

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Speaker 1: today's podcast on my song because I'm just gonna shamelessly

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Speaker 1: self promote because I know I have you all here,

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Speaker 1: you're my hostages.

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Speaker 2: And I've already answered if I'd be in the cult

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Speaker 2: or not if there was one, Yes, I would definitely

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Speaker 2: be in that cult.

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Speaker 1: You'd be in the Romedy cult?

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Speaker 4: Yes?

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Speaker 1: Would you be in the Lola Blanc cult?

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Speaker 2: Yes?

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Speaker 1: Thank you? Yes, Oh my god, my first follower. Yay,

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Speaker 1: I'm willing to give up all my possessions for you.

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Speaker 1: I don't want that. Okay, then I don't want to

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Speaker 1: be possessions. You've borrowed my possessions. No, Yeah, I got

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Speaker 1: a new song, guys. I also directed the video. I'm

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Speaker 1: very proud of it. It almost killed me making it, but

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Speaker 1: now it's here out in the world.

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Speaker 3: But that's so cool.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's me anyway, speaking of narcissism. So shall we dive?

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Speaker 1: Tell them, guys, I really don't think I'm a narcissists,

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Speaker 1: but you know what, maybe I'm wrong.

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Speaker 2: They can tell us after the show.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, let us know. All right, here we go. Well,

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Speaker 1: welcome doctor Romini der Vossola to the show. It's so

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Speaker 1: nice to have you here.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me. So it's a pleasure.

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Speaker 3: I love talking about this, the topic you talk about

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Speaker 3: and anything you know related to narcissism. So thanks.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Megan's very excited.

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Speaker 3: I'm so excited, but.

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Speaker 1: She knows I'm a fan girl. Yeah, I'm super fod

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Speaker 1: So for anyone who doesn't know your work, you're you

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Speaker 1: are or have been at various times of licensed clinical psychologists.

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Speaker 1: Professor of psychology and an expert on narcissists. Can you

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Speaker 1: just tell us a little bit about your background and

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Speaker 1: how narcissism became a specialty for you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean it was, you know, a series of accidents.

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Speaker 3: But I think that you know sort of we know,

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Speaker 3: we know where we're going to end up in some ways. Honestly,

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Speaker 3: I was doing research at the university and was somebody

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Speaker 3: was actually complaining about a healthcare setting that they were

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Speaker 3: working and helping me with some research down there, and

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Speaker 3: the thing that we were noticing was that there were

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Speaker 3: some patients, clients, patients in this case with a medical setting,

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Speaker 3: were very difficult and they were mean to the receptionists,

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Speaker 3: so mean to the nurses, mean to the physicians, mean

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Speaker 3: to everyone. And the person would come back from this

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Speaker 3: this site, this work site, and say I hate this

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Speaker 3: and I hate them, And the thing that went through

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Speaker 3: my mind is, wow, these people are burning out everyone

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Speaker 3: who works in that site, right, how do you address this?

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Speaker 3: And more importantly is they're probably not may not even

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Speaker 3: be getting as good healthcare because people have had it

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Speaker 3: with them, right, So there's a lot going on. So

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Speaker 3: I then I started studying it more, you know, academically,

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Speaker 3: but at the same time, I also had a private practice,

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Speaker 3: and I was noticing that everyone was coming in with

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Speaker 3: the same relationship story, and I thought, I'm about to

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Speaker 3: educate you. It was always the same lack of empathy, entitlement,

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Speaker 3: their rage, and I felt like I was saying the

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Speaker 3: same thing over and over again. What I found work

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Speaker 3: with them was education, like there are personality styles that

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Speaker 3: I wouldn't say, Hey, your partners are raging narcissism, but

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Speaker 3: I'm like, there are personality styles. Da da da da da.

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Speaker 3: And then when we would really cut to the chase,

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Speaker 3: which is and these these patterns don't change, and like

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Speaker 3: what And then I say, oh no, So all those

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Speaker 3: things you were trying to notice, how none of them

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Speaker 3: were It's because nothing's going to work. And that allowed

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Speaker 3: people to make very different decisions. Ironically, It's not like

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Speaker 3: all of them packed it in and left right. Some

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Speaker 3: of them stayed with very different sets of expectations. And

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Speaker 3: that was a huge difference, right, because they weren't having

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Speaker 3: their heart broken on the daily. And I have to

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Speaker 3: be honest with you, It's happened to me in my life,

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Speaker 3: you know, It's happened to me in family situations, it's

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Speaker 3: happened to me in in intimate romantic partner situations. It's

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Speaker 3: happened to me in the workplace, that's happened to me

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Speaker 3: in friendships. And the more impactful those narcissistic relationships change

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Speaker 3: the course of my life. And so I really would

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Speaker 3: be frustrated with the mental health profession that was not

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Speaker 3: taking this on. And I'm like, why isn't anyone talking

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Speaker 3: about this? I actually I almost it was almost like

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Speaker 3: it was very gaslightly like we don't talk about that.

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Speaker 3: And I said, well you start so in a way,

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Speaker 3: I'm a bit of a we put it, a pariah

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Speaker 3: or a renegade or kind of a bad actor. In

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Speaker 3: a way. Some bour are almost saying you shouldn't be

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Speaker 3: saying those things. That's not And I get it all

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Speaker 3: the time. You're a psychologist, you shouldn't be saying things

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Speaker 3: that aren't nice to narcissists. And I said, here's the thing,

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Speaker 3: if somebody does listen, I feel for them. I feel

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Speaker 3: for narcissistic folks. A lot of them have rough backstories.

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Speaker 3: All of us have some roughness in our backstories, right,

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Speaker 3: All these people with back rough backstories aren't out there,

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Speaker 3: harming people, manipulating people, gaslighting people. I'm sorry, I don't

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Speaker 3: buy that backstory thing. I really really don't. If you,

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Speaker 3: then get your stuff together, because if you're walking around

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Speaker 3: the world and you're not psychotic and you don't need

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Speaker 3: to be hospitalized, then get it together and stop hurting people.

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Speaker 3: And you better believe I'm going to call this out.

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Speaker 3: So I'm I'm willing to be the person who is

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Speaker 3: the I'm the sort of the the mean psychologist or

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Speaker 3: the bad cop. Yeah, the bad cop, the bad shrink,

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Speaker 3: the like I said, the pariah because I am seeing

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Speaker 3: the how many people have been freed from this sense

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Speaker 3: of I'm bad, I'm not enough. This must be my fault,

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Speaker 3: the self blame that these relationships create. I'm done, and

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Speaker 3: I'm like, you know what, I'm like my last relationship,

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Speaker 3: that's it. You want I want to come after me

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Speaker 3: and say I'm being mean. So you're telling me that

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Speaker 3: in order to be a virtuous psychologist, I have to

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Speaker 3: enable people. I don't think.

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Speaker 1: So, Wow, that's so interesting. I didn't know if there

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Speaker 1: was a stigma around it in the psychology community.

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Speaker 3: Think about it. I'm not being very nice in a way. Listen,

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Speaker 3: I've worked with many, many narcissistic clients in my practice,

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Speaker 3: treated them nothing with compassion. I have narcissistic people in

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Speaker 3: my life. I do my best. I'm never cruel to

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Speaker 3: them deliberately. I avoid them, I don't engage with them.

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Speaker 3: I have great boundaries with them. But I'm never deliberately cruel.

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Speaker 3: No way. But what I am not going to allow

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Speaker 3: is in the name of being that nice shrink. We

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Speaker 3: don't say mean things about people with a certain back. Heck, no,

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Speaker 3: somebody's abusing. Someone abuses abuse, abuses abuse. There's never an excuse.

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Speaker 3: I'm sorry done.

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Speaker 1: I love that rhyme.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there's one for you.

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Speaker 2: Well, I was how many do you think most people

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Speaker 2: have a narcissist in their life?

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Speaker 3: I would say pretty much everyone in the everyone, at

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Speaker 3: least in the United States, probably in the world. It's funny.

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Speaker 3: There was once a statistic that was folded out there.

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Speaker 3: They're thrown out there. It's not been substantiated. It's not

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Speaker 3: a bad statistic though. The estimate that they had been

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Speaker 3: thrown out is probably about twenty percent of the population.

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Speaker 3: Just like narcissistic doesn't have narcissistic personality disorder. That's a

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Speaker 3: whole different issue. When I have the touch, they have

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Speaker 3: the quality and significantly enough that it affects their relationships

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Speaker 3: in the world, you know, work, partner, or family, you

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Speaker 3: would naim it. If it's twenty percent, that's one in five.

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Speaker 3: Most of us have more than five people in our lives,

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Speaker 3: which means most of us will have at least one

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Speaker 3: narcissistic person in our lives, past or present or future.

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Speaker 1: So I mean, just to build a foundation here, what

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Speaker 1: are some of the telltale signs that someone would be

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Speaker 1: a narcissist.

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Speaker 3: Lack of empathy. They're very entitled, they constantly need validation

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Speaker 3: and admiration. They're very arrogant, very controlling, very superficial. They

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Speaker 3: they're very sensitive. They're very sensitively reactive to criticism. So

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Speaker 3: when somebody says something to them they don't like, they

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Speaker 3: will bite back and get racheful. But they can say

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Speaker 3: what they want to anyone. So there's a real hypocrisy

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Speaker 3: in this personality style. There is a sense that they

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Speaker 3: envy people a lot, or they think other people envy them. Again,

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Speaker 3: very very grandiose.

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Speaker 1: A certain politicisms and I'm aware of okay.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, very grandiose, and you know what we when I

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Speaker 3: can give you a laundry list that goes on and

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Speaker 3: on and on, very manipulative. But at the end of

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Speaker 3: the day, the common core characteristic of everyone who's narcissistic

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Speaker 3: is that they have a deep sense of insecurity and

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Speaker 3: these feelings of inadequacy. They're under the level of consciousness. Listen,

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Speaker 3: I'm the first one to tell you I'm the most

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Speaker 3: insecure person in the world, and it guides so much

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Speaker 3: of but I'm in possession of that right, so then

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Speaker 3: I'm aware of it and saying, oh, my insecurity is

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Speaker 3: coming up, you know, just be real with yourself. With

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Speaker 3: a narcissistic people, it's this cordoned off part of themselves

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Speaker 3: as though if that inadequacy comes up, if people see

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Speaker 3: their insecurity, it's almost cataclysmic to them. So that's why

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Speaker 3: they have all these defenses like grandiosity, like entitlement, like

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Speaker 3: lack of empathy, like I can't be bothered with all

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Speaker 3: you people, and I'm I'm I'm the greatest, I'm I'm wonderful,

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Speaker 3: and it's a there's also a real you know again,

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Speaker 3: there's this very pretentious quality but also a very vulnerable

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Speaker 3: quality quality to people who are narcissistic. So it's a

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Speaker 3: very complicated, complicated picture.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, can can you describe the vulnerability aspect? We were

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Speaker 1: talking about that a little bit before you got here,

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Speaker 1: and I had never heard about that kind of version

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Speaker 1: of it.

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Speaker 3: So in a lot of the popular writing and talking

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Speaker 3: about it, and I've been guilty of making the mistake

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Speaker 3: people call it covert narcissism. It's the wrong term. It's

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Speaker 3: actually called vulnerable narcissism. They're used synonymously, so anyone listening

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Speaker 3: is saying, wait, it's the same. What I'm about to

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Speaker 3: say describes what is often popularly known as a covert narcissist,

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Speaker 3: but it's the vulnerable narcissism. Vulnerable narcissism. People who are vulnerable,

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Speaker 3: vulnerable narcissis this, they tend to look more socially anxious.

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Speaker 3: They're not as extroverted they are. They, in fact, sometimes

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Speaker 3: even look socially unskilled. They can look quite sad. They're

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Speaker 3: very irritable, they're very sullen. They're very resentful, very passive, aggressive,

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Speaker 3: and very victimized.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, sorry, I just you're describing in cells

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Speaker 1: right now.

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Speaker 3: Exactly all in cells are vulnerable narcissists, Yes, without an exception.

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Speaker 3: I've never seen anything else. Every so often you'll see

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Speaker 3: their vulnerable narcissists with a lot of malignant stuff on top,

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Speaker 3: because if they ever did get anyone close to them,

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Speaker 3: they'd likely be very coercively, controlling, exploitative, brutally manipulative, all

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Speaker 3: of that. But they typically can't get people close to them,

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Speaker 3: so most of them are vulnerable.

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Speaker 1: Narcissis fascinating phenomenon that like all of the people who

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Speaker 1: suffer from the same person.

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Speaker 3: So I'm going to keep us bringing us back to

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Speaker 3: that point. There's a reason for that. When people call

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Speaker 3: it narcissistic personality disorder, that's where a lot of the

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Speaker 3: pushback comes from. You shouldn't be diagnosed someone your I

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Speaker 3: get it. I'm a psychologist, yeah, qualified, But you haven't

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Speaker 3: met that person. You shouldn't be It's a big, big thing, right.

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Speaker 3: I'm a believer that narcissistic personality disorder shouldn't be a diagnosis.

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Speaker 3: The studies we have, epidemiological studies that tell us the

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Speaker 3: rates of mental illnesses estimate the rates and the population

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Speaker 3: somewhere between three to six percent. I just tossed the

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Speaker 3: number out there. Twenty percent of people probably have notably

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Speaker 3: narcissistic personalities. The only way we can call something a

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Speaker 3: disorder is if it's causing a lot of distress to

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Speaker 3: the person. Like think of a depressed person. Right, They're distressed, right,

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Speaker 3: They're like, I can't get out of bed, i can't

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Speaker 3: do my job, I'm always sad. That's distressed or something

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Speaker 3: called social and occupational impairment, which is a fancy way

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Speaker 3: of saying it's making a mess of their lives. It's

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Speaker 3: screwing up their relationships and their jobs. Now here's the thing.

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Speaker 3: Other people in the narcissists life are miserable. Well, we

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Speaker 3: can't make a diagnosis on that basis. They're not in

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Speaker 3: my office, right, So they're they're living the life of Riley.

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Speaker 3: They got a partner, they got a side piece, they've

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Speaker 3: got a they're they're ruining everyone at work with their

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Speaker 3: they've got the new car right, their love and life right.

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Speaker 3: So they're not walking around thinking there's impairment. And so

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Speaker 3: that diagnosis, waiting for that or using that term assumes

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Speaker 3: something clinical, and I actually think it lets too many

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Speaker 3: narcissists off the hook, because, as we see it is

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Speaker 3: if someone has a mental illness, we should help them. Well,

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Speaker 3: here is a disease without a treatment, right, so then

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Speaker 3: why not you listen, diagnose me with won't make her

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Speaker 3: bed itis? Yeah, you know what's a treatment? You know

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Speaker 3: what I'm saying. So to me, it's this. And there's

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Speaker 3: other people who've written about this. Doctor Alan Francis famously

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Speaker 3: wrote about this in his book of Twilight of Twilight

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Speaker 3: of American Sanity, Like people have written about this, and

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Speaker 3: he's the person who wrote the diagnosis in the first place.

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Speaker 3: The diagnosis has only been around since nineteen eighty, so

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Speaker 3: this is not like it's been around like depression for

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Speaker 3: a long long time. So I always say to everyone,

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Speaker 3: let's just toss that disorder out the window and focus

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Speaker 3: on narcissism because that quality is really prevalent in a

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Speaker 3: lot of people.

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Speaker 1: I have two questions once, So, I mean, to what

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Speaker 1: extent do you think that labels of disorders are useful

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Speaker 1: in general?

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Speaker 3: Like you know what they're not. And I'll tell you why.

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Speaker 3: We're very wonky about them. Right, you say, if I

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Speaker 3: came up to you and I never met the two

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Speaker 3: of you and said, oh, blah blah blah, narcissist. It's

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Speaker 3: a little label. Ye, right, it's a dismissive. It almost

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Speaker 3: feels invalidating. I always say to people, I'm happy to

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Speaker 3: stay and stay focused on patterns. Right, so you could say, hey,

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Speaker 3: I just met someone and they don't have much empathy.

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Speaker 3: They're really entitled, they're pretty grandiose, they're always acting like

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Speaker 3: a victim, they're pretty passive aggressive. I've noticed it's a

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Speaker 3: lot like every time to say that, right, So we

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Speaker 3: what the key with a label is to be very

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Speaker 3: clear on what's under that label. And that's the problem

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Speaker 3: and narcissism. Listen, I when I started working in narcissism,

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Speaker 3: nobody cared my own mentor It's like, girl, you are

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Speaker 3: going to ruin your career. And I said, you know what,

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Speaker 3: I'm seeing it help people. So I was never trying

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Speaker 3: to be I'm like, I don't care as long as

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Speaker 3: I can pay my bills. I was never looking like whatever,

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Speaker 3: the opposite of grandiose, Like I wasn't looking for that.

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Speaker 3: But I wasn't paying my bills. I'm like, better find

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Speaker 3: some better ways to make money. And so, but the

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Speaker 3: issue really became that nobody cared about it. I really

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Speaker 3: started dabbling in this space around two thousand and eight, right,

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Speaker 3: and then really was working steadily, steadily, steadily and working

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Speaker 3: much more than more and more clinically. And then twenty

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Speaker 3: sixteen the world changed and a word that nobody I

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Speaker 3: was almost like, imagine you're studying one tiny little butterfly

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Speaker 3: in a lab and you're mad, and you're by yourself

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Speaker 3: in this obscure little office, and one day you lift

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Speaker 3: your head and everybody cares about the thing that you're studying.

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Speaker 3: Narcissist butterfly. And that's exactly right, And to.

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Speaker 1: A point where it became annoying for me, like I

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Speaker 1: feel like every not to use this term, but to

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Speaker 1: every basic bitch around town. It is like suddenly calling

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Speaker 1: everyone a narcissis to've ever done anything that bothered them.

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Speaker 3: And that goes to the question, you said these labels, right,

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Speaker 3: So you're going to use a label, I need to

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Speaker 3: know what's under it. And the problem is when this

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Speaker 3: has become so common in sort of the lay terminology,

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Speaker 3: and lots of people instagram around this and all of that,

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Speaker 3: I'm like, you're not using the word right, Like, think

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Speaker 3: of what we've often thought of a lot of people

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Speaker 3: still walk around with this idea of the narcissist as

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Speaker 3: someone who likes to look in the mirror and is

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Speaker 3: in love with themselves. Narcissist will love themselves. They hate themselves.

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Speaker 3: That's the core of the issue. Do you see what

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Speaker 3: I'm saying. It's they look like they love themselves because

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Speaker 3: they talk about themselves in very self admiring terms. They

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Speaker 3: have very distorted sense of self esteem. But all of

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Speaker 3: it's a defense because inside them there is this really bleak,

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Speaker 3: inadequate darkness.

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Speaker 1: It's like obsession with themselves, right, but not necessarily it's

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Speaker 1: a love hate relationship with themselves.

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Speaker 3: Maybe I don't even know that there's the love part

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Speaker 3: of it. I think it's a hate relationship with themselves.

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Speaker 3: It's like all the grandiosity, the entitlement, all the fanciness,

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Speaker 3: the fancy cars, it's all to kind of cover up

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Speaker 3: the stink. You know what I'm saying. It's like putting

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Speaker 3: on a lot of colone or perfume ins that's take

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Speaker 3: in a shower.

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Speaker 1: Right, right? Is it a spectrum? Like someone has some

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Speaker 1: narcissistic characteristics, but isn't You wouldn't necessarily call them that.

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Speaker 3: It's a fantastic question. So it's absolutely a spectrum from

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Speaker 3: the low to the high end. Right, So at the

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Speaker 3: low end, we're really talking what I call about sort

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Speaker 3: of superficial, ridiculous Instagram narcissists, right like, look at me,

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Speaker 3: aren't I pretty? I'm at the beach, don't you envy me?

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Speaker 3: You know, a lot of this kind of hashtag love

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Speaker 3: goals these I mean, it's just it's immature, it's emotionally stunted,

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00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:40,680
Speaker 3: it's annoying. You really can't have a deep relationship with them,

430
00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:44,679
Speaker 3: but it doesn't tend to be as seemingly harmful, Like

431
00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:46,639
Speaker 3: if you're trying to raise a kid with this person,

432
00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:50,680
Speaker 3: you'd be frustrated as hell, but it's not that really

433
00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:54,760
Speaker 3: kind of scary malicious yat. Now when you get to

434
00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:57,720
Speaker 3: the highest end of the narcissism spectrum, now you're talking

435
00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:00,640
Speaker 3: about more of what we call malignant narcissists. These are

436
00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:05,199
Speaker 3: people who are coercive, exploitative, They will they pretend. There

437
00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:07,560
Speaker 3: may be a higher risk of violence. We know that

438
00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:11,960
Speaker 3: narcissism is associated with aggression. Hundreds of studies have shown that,

439
00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:16,439
Speaker 3: and so physical aggression, physical and psychological I think psychological

440
00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:19,400
Speaker 3: and physical aggression are at the same level. I really do,

441
00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:22,480
Speaker 3: and the research really shows that the trauma somebody can

442
00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:26,399
Speaker 3: experience having experienced many, many, many years of emotional abuse.

443
00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:28,840
Speaker 3: Imagine living with someone where you always think there's a

444
00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:31,480
Speaker 3: threat of menace. You know, I could ruin you, I

445
00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:34,840
Speaker 3: could destroy and you're always like, so it's our nervous

446
00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:36,920
Speaker 3: system intripets that the same as someone punching us in

447
00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:37,320
Speaker 3: the face.

448
00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:40,000
Speaker 1: My friend, my girlfriend and I were just talking about

449
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:43,199
Speaker 1: how whatever, we both dated people who are emotionally abusive

450
00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:45,640
Speaker 1: or whatever. She's data people who are actually physically abusive.

451
00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:48,400
Speaker 1: But the relationships that have stuck with us the most

452
00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:51,600
Speaker 1: and have like seemingly continued to harm us psychologically are

453
00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:53,480
Speaker 1: the ones where we've felt like we had to tiptoe

454
00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:56,600
Speaker 1: all the time, you know, like it was never about.

455
00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:57,399
Speaker 3: The physical fear.

456
00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:00,679
Speaker 1: Ever, it was always just like, if you feel so unsafe,

457
00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:03,600
Speaker 1: And I just think that's so interesting and there should

458
00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:05,639
Speaker 1: be more awareness about it, because when we tend to

459
00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:08,320
Speaker 1: refer to abuse as only the physical part, right.

460
00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:10,919
Speaker 3: And if I had a dollar for every client who

461
00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:14,440
Speaker 3: said to me, if the bruises on my soul were

462
00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:17,360
Speaker 3: on my face, somebody would be driving me to the emergency.

463
00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:18,840
Speaker 3: I know I'm going, so.

464
00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:24,720
Speaker 1: I laugh so I don't have to cry. Yes, okay,

465
00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:26,119
Speaker 1: So can they change?

466
00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:28,439
Speaker 3: No? Next question, you.

467
00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:30,639
Speaker 1: Treat them?

468
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:34,080
Speaker 3: Yes, Okay. I'm going to be frank with you because

469
00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:36,000
Speaker 3: I've had a really interesting purch at this, right, because

470
00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:40,080
Speaker 3: I paid attention. I have worked with narcissistic clients. I

471
00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:44,280
Speaker 3: have consulted with narcissistic clients and family systems. And I

472
00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:50,120
Speaker 3: have known narcissistic people decades, not months, not years, decades.

473
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:55,240
Speaker 3: When I tell you, the amount any change there has

474
00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:57,880
Speaker 3: been is not enough to be noticed by the people

475
00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:00,400
Speaker 3: around them. As a therapist, you notice subtle changes, right,

476
00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:03,000
Speaker 3: But I'm going to tell you, for every three steps forward,

477
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:06,400
Speaker 3: it's usually three steps back, you end up at baseline.

478
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:10,200
Speaker 3: And so no, I mean, and I tell people that

479
00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:14,200
Speaker 3: in such a clear way, because I don't like people

480
00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:15,440
Speaker 3: waiting on unicorns.

481
00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:15,960
Speaker 1: Right.

482
00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:18,480
Speaker 3: You know, I buy lottery tickets. I buy them every

483
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:21,960
Speaker 3: week because if I could, I would meet my cat,

484
00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:24,720
Speaker 3: I would I would take care of my family. I

485
00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:27,320
Speaker 3: would live someplace near the WAD. I would do those things.

486
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:27,600
Speaker 1: Right.

487
00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:31,280
Speaker 3: I am not looking at real estate yet, let's put

488
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:33,760
Speaker 3: it that way, right, So there's unicorns people do win

489
00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:36,640
Speaker 3: the lottery because these things happen. This is the same

490
00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:40,520
Speaker 3: thing in the significant change in the realm of narcissism. Right,

491
00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:43,639
Speaker 3: those are unicorns. People might say, well, what happens, how

492
00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:46,600
Speaker 3: do some of them change? We're talking about the hardest

493
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:51,120
Speaker 3: psychological work of somebody's life. So it makes addiction treatment

494
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:53,359
Speaker 3: look like a walk in the park, because you're talking

495
00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:56,840
Speaker 3: about a person who needs to commit every day, every hour,

496
00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:00,280
Speaker 3: every minute to being mindful and empathic when and that's

497
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:04,520
Speaker 3: not coming naturally to them. They're almost crushing something like saying,

498
00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:08,439
Speaker 3: I really hear about I feel you know. I mean,

499
00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:13,720
Speaker 3: they're just twisting because they're like, I don't care. Notorious.

500
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 3: I remember this so many many years ago, worked with

501
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:21,160
Speaker 3: some one of the smartest people I'd never known, hugely successful,

502
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:25,400
Speaker 3: multi multi many times over a millionaire. It's almost household

503
00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:30,080
Speaker 3: and amy, and we worked together for years. But ultimately

504
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:32,240
Speaker 3: at the end of all of this and this is

505
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:34,960
Speaker 3: and this story repeated multiple times with people like this.

506
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:37,199
Speaker 3: This is almost like a composite of all of these

507
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:40,840
Speaker 3: people's stories. But more than once, when they're they were

508
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:42,800
Speaker 3: clear on what they needed to do, they're saying, you're

509
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:45,840
Speaker 3: saying these patterns I have, like being dismissive and you know,

510
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:48,080
Speaker 3: just not wanting to deal with people's emotional stuff or

511
00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:50,639
Speaker 3: not okay, I said, it's not okay, it's hurtful. Some

512
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:54,040
Speaker 3: of these folks divorced the wife, broke up with the mistress,

513
00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:57,520
Speaker 3: moved out on their own, and said, I can't be bothered.

514
00:24:57,960 --> 00:24:59,720
Speaker 3: I literally can't be bothered. I do not want to

515
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:02,920
Speaker 3: listen these people, however, here what was interesting? They say,

516
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:04,960
Speaker 3: I also don't want to hurt them. Yeah, I don't

517
00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:06,760
Speaker 3: want to hurt them. This is not what But if

518
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:08,760
Speaker 3: you're telling me that this is what I need to

519
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:12,840
Speaker 3: do to not be narcissistic, I'm out. I fold, and

520
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 3: I'm not kidding you. One person in a three month period,

521
00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:19,959
Speaker 3: divorced a wife, broke up with a girlfriend okay, moved

522
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:22,280
Speaker 3: out and said, you know, listen, I found someone I

523
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 3: pay to have sex with me every two weeks and

524
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:26,560
Speaker 3: she loves it too in the morning and it's great

525
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:27,879
Speaker 3: And I don't even want to wake up next to

526
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 3: this person. This person has lot Several of these people

527
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:34,560
Speaker 3: have lots of friends, They travel, they have plenty of money,

528
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:37,480
Speaker 3: so they it's not a loneliness thing. You know, they're like,

529
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:39,479
Speaker 3: I clearly just wanted to have sex with someone, so

530
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:42,160
Speaker 3: this is clean and neat I pay for it. They come,

531
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:44,840
Speaker 3: they go, we're donet and they were.

532
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:48,560
Speaker 1: Done, you know, but they went actively hurting someone.

533
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:52,320
Speaker 3: That to me was a treatment success because they really said,

534
00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:54,200
Speaker 3: like they got to the point where over and norm,

535
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:57,680
Speaker 3: I'm like, this hurt them. Can you understand that? Initially

536
00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,879
Speaker 3: they didn't even understand it. Then they understood it, and

537
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:03,000
Speaker 3: then they tried and then they couldn't do it, and

538
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:04,800
Speaker 3: they said, well, at least I don't want to hurt people.

539
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:09,119
Speaker 2: If you take a brain scan of a narcissist, is

540
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 2: there a part of their brain that looks different.

541
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:15,200
Speaker 3: Or this kind of research has been done with people

542
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:17,760
Speaker 3: were psychopaths. Now we remember we're talking about that continuum

543
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:22,480
Speaker 3: of narcissism. While narcissists have been, psychopathy are related. There's

544
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:26,560
Speaker 3: a gap between even the highest most malignant narcissists, highest

545
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:29,800
Speaker 3: end and the psychopaths. The differences in their nervous systems

546
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:33,720
Speaker 3: and all of that research on psychopathy. Famously, some of

547
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:35,679
Speaker 3: the best work has actually been done by Adrian Rain

548
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 3: who was once here at USC. I think he might

549
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:41,160
Speaker 3: be the University of Pennsylvania. Now, but his research really

550
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:43,840
Speaker 3: did show differences in the brains of psychopaths. Basically, the

551
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:47,760
Speaker 3: regions of the brain that subserved things like empathy wouldn't

552
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:50,320
Speaker 3: light up the same way. However, what some of this

553
00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:53,959
Speaker 3: research has shown is if we can fake empathy, like

554
00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 3: can you really think about what that person might be

555
00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:00,119
Speaker 3: going through? And in a very intellectualized way, they'd say like, well, oh,

556
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:02,440
Speaker 3: I guess they're going to be really hurt, that area

557
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:04,159
Speaker 3: of the brain could light up, so you could you

558
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 3: could pull it out of them, right, And this is

559
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:10,160
Speaker 3: sadly what people in relationships with these folks do psychopath

560
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:13,040
Speaker 3: or narcissists. They try to pull the empathy out of them,

561
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:16,160
Speaker 3: but it doesn't tend to come naturally. So my guess

562
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 3: is because narcissism is on such a spectrum, unless you

563
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:23,840
Speaker 3: really only focus on very very malignant, severe narcissistic folks,

564
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:26,720
Speaker 3: maybe you would see some of those differences in around

565
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:28,880
Speaker 3: you know, the empathy piece. If you were to see

566
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:31,919
Speaker 3: other differences, you'd probably see it in parts of the

567
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:35,439
Speaker 3: brain that are the limbic system that are associated with

568
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 3: memory and the frontal lobes, which are associated with impulsivity.

569
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:43,480
Speaker 3: Narcissistic people are notoriously impulsive. They say what they want,

570
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:45,800
Speaker 3: they do what they want, they act out. They don't

571
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:48,440
Speaker 3: think about consequences, right, So in some ways they all

572
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:50,760
Speaker 3: have the brains of a fifteen year old boy. They

573
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:52,919
Speaker 3: just like, oh there's a hill, let's just skateboard down it,

574
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:56,359
Speaker 3: you know, with no thought to what could happen. So

575
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 3: that that problem there, I think you may capture some

576
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:02,640
Speaker 3: of that imaging. Like I said, imaging and behavior don't

577
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:05,080
Speaker 3: always line up perfectly. The pictures we take of the

578
00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 3: brain don't always translate into behavior because it's a bit

579
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:11,640
Speaker 3: more complicated and so are But I mean, I think

580
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:16,400
Speaker 3: if we definitely see those executive dysfunctions, that's that impulsivity.

581
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:19,240
Speaker 3: We see these emotional issues, that's that limbic stuff, and

582
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 3: then we see issues around empathy.

583
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:24,920
Speaker 1: Isn't that true psychopaths as well? The impulsivity absolutely. So

584
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:28,640
Speaker 1: the difference is just like the clear lack of empathy.

585
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:31,760
Speaker 3: The difference is this, remember what I said about those

586
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:35,440
Speaker 3: narcissists being so insecure and feeling inadequate, And actually narcissistic

587
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:40,000
Speaker 3: people are pretty anxious. They're actually quite anxious. Psychopaths no

588
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:46,000
Speaker 3: anxiety ahay, not insecure, very callous, very calculating, very smart.

589
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:50,040
Speaker 3: I mean, honestly, psychopaths make great assassins because they get in,

590
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:51,400
Speaker 3: they get out, they do the job, and then they'll

591
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:52,480
Speaker 3: go they'll go eat lunch.

592
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 1: Yeah they're sha, they're not.

593
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:57,840
Speaker 3: And they don't have remorse. Psychopaths have no remorse. Narcissistic

594
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 3: people have remorse, believe it or not. The mores tends

595
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:02,560
Speaker 3: to be a bit more about I don't want to

596
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:04,600
Speaker 3: get called out on this because it'll make me look bad.

597
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 3: But they know the thing they did was call out

598
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 3: a bull. Makes sense, So they do the bad thing

599
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 3: at work and hope I don't get caught. So they're

600
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 3: more worried about harm to their reputation, but they do

601
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 3: know the thing they did was bad. Psychopaths don't even

602
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:20,600
Speaker 3: have a full grasping the idea that the thing that

603
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:21,600
Speaker 3: they're doing is right.

604
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 1: We had two women on who are allegedly diagnosed psychopaths,

605
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 1: and they were talking about how what they understand to

606
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 1: be the difference between the way they function and other

607
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:35,440
Speaker 1: people function is that like they don't have like identity hits,

608
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:39,040
Speaker 1: like someone could say something that you know, a normal

609
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:41,320
Speaker 1: person a narcissist would find upsetting because it'd be damaging

610
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 1: to their ego. They don't give a shit, you know,

611
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 1: they don't.

612
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:47,800
Speaker 3: It's dangerous because that social pressure actually shapes behavior, right,

613
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 3: You Caring what I think about you keeps you from

614
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:54,200
Speaker 3: doing some things right, right, It leads people to inhibit

615
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:57,440
Speaker 3: narcissist less, so psychopaths not at all. But what's interesting

616
00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 3: about psychopaths is they're very resistant to stress, to and

617
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 3: resistant to anxiety, which means that they actually perform beautifully

618
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:07,280
Speaker 3: in high pressure positions. The challenges is they always will

619
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 3: do it in a way that is in line with

620
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 3: their basic motivations. And the basic motivations are really power,

621
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:16,080
Speaker 3: profit and pleasure, you know, Like it's never a sexually

622
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:18,760
Speaker 3: intimate relationship. Is like I want to get off, right,

623
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:21,600
Speaker 3: so it's not about intimacy, It's about my pleasure need

624
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 3: and then I'm going to completely discard you, like leave.

625
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:28,320
Speaker 3: So but there's an absolute lack of awareness of the

626
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 3: other person. In fact, sometimes it's surprise, like oh wait,

627
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:33,560
Speaker 3: I'm so secure about this person, you know, Like that's

628
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 3: that like and they really are struck by Yeah.

629
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 1: I was talking to a fellow singer girl who I

630
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 1: shall not name one time, but I was just completely

631
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:49,920
Speaker 1: convinced she's a sociopath. Kind of separate topic, but ah,

632
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:53,719
Speaker 1: it's just all these little things. Very very narcissistic, very

633
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,120
Speaker 1: obsessed with herself, would only talk about herself like could

634
00:30:56,240 --> 00:31:01,160
Speaker 1: couldn't even, but very very charismatic. I remember one time

635
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 1: she told me that she was going to have sex

636
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:05,320
Speaker 1: with some guy but she was married, and I was like, Oh,

637
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 1: does your partner know about that? And she was like no,

638
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 1: like it literally had not occurred to her that he

639
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,720
Speaker 1: might have feelings about it. And I was like, psychopath.

640
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:22,840
Speaker 3: And I have to say, narcissist, Kim. So psychopaths, psychopaths

641
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:26,640
Speaker 3: will somebody will get into marriages. It's interesting because they

642
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:30,680
Speaker 3: need something benefit, something like it's to them. Marriage is

643
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 3: are very contractual. What is it going to get me?

644
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 3: For narcissistic people and psychopathic people, But all relationships are transactional, right,

645
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 3: So there's that piece of you know, to keep in

646
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 3: mind that that transactional nature of relationships really hurts people

647
00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 3: who get into these relationships because they actually think they're

648
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:52,240
Speaker 3: in something that's about intimacy and closeness, but it really

649
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 3: is like what're they're narcissistic. People are in relationships to

650
00:31:56,120 --> 00:32:00,480
Speaker 3: get admiration, validation what we call narcissistic supply, maybe get sex,

651
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:02,880
Speaker 3: maybe to look good to the world, maybe because that's

652
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:05,360
Speaker 3: a social role they're supposed to play. But it's not

653
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:07,480
Speaker 3: about any more depth than that. And when they're done,

654
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 3: they'll discourage you.

655
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 2: Right, So psychopaths are born and narcissists are made.

656
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:18,640
Speaker 3: It's probably yeah. I mean, it's still an evolving research, right.

657
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 3: So it's not like there's pure psychopathy gene and there

658
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:24,480
Speaker 3: are people out there who, for example, to the degree

659
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 3: there's any genetic association of a parent who is psychopathic,

660
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:32,040
Speaker 3: then they are perfectly lovely, productive citizen.

661
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:32,239
Speaker 4: Right.

662
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 3: So it's not a sort of a one gene, one

663
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:37,720
Speaker 3: disease kind of a thing. Because people who might have

664
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 3: a psychopathic parent are also growing up in a home

665
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:45,480
Speaker 3: that's often characterized by the lack of presence of that caregiver.

666
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 3: There might even be domestic abuse in that household, or

667
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 3: may be chaos, or maybe substance abuse. All the stuff

668
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:53,400
Speaker 3: that tends to float around psychopathy that you don't know

669
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:56,000
Speaker 3: how much of that is also being raised in that

670
00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:58,160
Speaker 3: sort of environment. And it's also likely. It's not like

671
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:00,920
Speaker 3: a psychopathy gene, but it's a gene that has to

672
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 3: do with the what's called the autonomic nervous system. The

673
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:06,120
Speaker 3: autonomic nervous system is the part of us that gets

674
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:10,080
Speaker 3: activated when there's stress or fear. It's that fight flight

675
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:12,680
Speaker 3: freeze kind of a system. For them, they don't have

676
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:16,160
Speaker 3: that autonomic arousal. That might be the part that's inherited, right,

677
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 3: So that's why they'll do daring things, scary things, all

678
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 3: kinds of things, because they're not getting the arousal, and

679
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:23,640
Speaker 3: some ways are trying to get that arousal out of life,

680
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:25,280
Speaker 3: so they do scarier scary.

681
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 2: I wish you could give them some of my arousal.

682
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 1: Some of that shut down my anxiety, But that might

683
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 1: be the part that's actually inherited.

684
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,560
Speaker 3: And but that doesn't necessarily have to result in this

685
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:42,120
Speaker 3: person who is callous and cold. So it's it's as

686
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:45,160
Speaker 3: with all mental health and mental illness issues, there is

687
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:49,720
Speaker 3: no perfect genetic model, right. There's always an environmental piece

688
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 3: to this, but narcissism really seems to be the only

689
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:55,960
Speaker 3: part that might be inherited. Is this thing called temperament.

690
00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 3: Temperament is a biological part of our personality. There's some

691
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 3: you know, there's some work suggesting that people who grow

692
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 3: up to be adult narcissists as children had difficult temperaments,

693
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:09,359
Speaker 3: and because they had difficult temperaments, people didn't like them.

694
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:11,160
Speaker 3: I don't know if you've ever spent too much time

695
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 3: with a child who's difficult to soothe, or a child

696
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:15,879
Speaker 3: who's tearing apart the living room, or a child who

697
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:18,879
Speaker 3: won't sit still, nobody likes them. Stop it, don't do that.

698
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 3: And so what happens That kid often also wants a

699
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 3: lot of attention, and so they keep doing those things,

700
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 3: and they get the messaging of no bad, be like

701
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 3: your sister. And so you can see where some of

702
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:32,120
Speaker 3: that insecurity stuff would start growing. That that's planting some

703
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 3: seeds related to the early temperament. I'm surprised at how

704
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:40,399
Speaker 3: because clinically you get to learn people's history of the many, many, many,

705
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:42,920
Speaker 3: many many narcissistic clients I've worked with, how many of

706
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:45,719
Speaker 3: them had really difficult almost all of them had really

707
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 3: difficult temperaments in childhood. They were just not nice kids.

708
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:51,640
Speaker 3: I feel for them because I think that they often

709
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 3: wanted attention, and the adults in their environment didn't know

710
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:58,160
Speaker 3: how to create a space that would almost allow that

711
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 3: to sort of stretch its wings. But these are cases.

712
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:04,240
Speaker 3: For example, let's say the narcissistic child is not the eldest,

713
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:06,400
Speaker 3: but we could be the eldest, but has a younger

714
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:10,080
Speaker 3: sibling come along. They are so cruel to the They're upset,

715
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 3: they feel dethroned by that new sibling, like they never

716
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 3: welcome the new sibling. That's a very classical trait you

717
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 3: see in children sometimes go on to become narcissistic adults.

718
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:24,960
Speaker 3: Is that they they really the idea of a sibling

719
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 3: is not like, oh, I have a baby sister, This

720
00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:30,439
Speaker 3: is so cute. They're like threat threat. Yeah, And that's

721
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:32,759
Speaker 3: how they tend to view people, any kind of interloper

722
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:33,720
Speaker 3: for the rest of their lives.

723
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:37,759
Speaker 1: I feel like it's time for the question about what

724
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:44,320
Speaker 1: percentage would you imagine of cult leaders are narcissists?

725
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:50,719
Speaker 3: I love these questions, like, No. The reason I had

726
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:53,560
Speaker 3: to temper that number is I think a fair number

727
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:56,160
Speaker 3: of them are psychopathic. So if we put it as

728
00:35:56,440 --> 00:36:00,520
Speaker 3: what percent are psychopathic and narcissistic, one hundred percent? So

729
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:01,200
Speaker 3: why is that?

730
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:01,960
Speaker 5: So?

731
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:04,920
Speaker 3: Think about what cult leadership is. It's a need for

732
00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 3: full power, control and domination over other people in essence

733
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:12,240
Speaker 3: to do your bidding and to continually give you supply,

734
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 3: to tell you your great to validate whatever your worldview is.

735
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:21,200
Speaker 3: There is a complete lack of empathy to the needs

736
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:25,480
Speaker 3: of the people in this culture organization. There's an entitlement

737
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 3: to feeling like you deserve certain kinds of treatment above others,

738
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:32,960
Speaker 3: and in fact others can really endure terrible treatment relative

739
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:36,160
Speaker 3: to you. Grandiose. Some cult leaders think they're God some people.

740
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:39,240
Speaker 3: Some cult leaders think they have special communication with magical

741
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:42,840
Speaker 3: people in the universe. They're very arrogant. I know things

742
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:46,359
Speaker 3: that you don't. They use the techniques of narcissism. They

743
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:49,680
Speaker 3: isolate people right, they cut them, they triangulate, they keep

744
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 3: them from the people that are important to them, or

745
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:56,080
Speaker 3: they turn it into this very gossipy infighting mess where

746
00:36:56,160 --> 00:37:01,440
Speaker 3: they're the only consistent source of of information in essence

747
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 3: and then ultimately power. They're very very controlling. Again, the

748
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:09,279
Speaker 3: validation seeking, needing to be told you are the best,

749
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:12,920
Speaker 3: we worship you. There's I mean invariably cult leaders are

750
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:16,400
Speaker 3: sexually and or physically abusive, and so we see that

751
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:21,200
Speaker 3: again another way of exerting control and power and generating

752
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:24,160
Speaker 3: shame in the followers. And that's the other thing that

753
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:27,080
Speaker 3: cult leaders do, just like many narcissistic people do. They

754
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:30,200
Speaker 3: project their own shame onto other people, leaving the people

755
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:33,640
Speaker 3: in the organization full of self blame and then decreasing

756
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:36,720
Speaker 3: the likelihood that the people will leave or go seek

757
00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:40,760
Speaker 3: out help. There's a superficiality, you know, they'll often anoint

758
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:43,120
Speaker 3: people within the cult on the basis of a superficial

759
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:50,440
Speaker 3: characteristic money, appearance, connections, that sort of thing. And there's

760
00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:52,759
Speaker 3: also a very Again, the arrogance comes out in a

761
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 3: choosy like, there's a power they get to choose people again,

762
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:58,839
Speaker 3: to anoint people, to make them special in the group.

763
00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:01,759
Speaker 3: That creates more of that triangulation and certainly take it

764
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:03,480
Speaker 3: away from yes and then take it away from them.

765
00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:07,600
Speaker 3: They gaslight people. I mean, cult leaders are the ultimate

766
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:11,200
Speaker 3: gas lighters, and so they gaslight everyone in the cult.

767
00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:15,399
Speaker 3: They're very they can be very impulsive. Their rage can

768
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:17,640
Speaker 3: come out of nowhere, and the rage controls the people.

769
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:19,800
Speaker 3: It's it's pure narcissism everything.

770
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:23,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, So would you say that somebody who's in a

771
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 1: relationship with a narcissists maybe has a taste of what

772
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 1: it is like to be in a cult present.

773
00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:31,799
Speaker 3: Every every narcissistic relationship is a two person cult. There's

774
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:35,560
Speaker 3: no two ways about it. Every all the grooming characteristics,

775
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:38,040
Speaker 3: everything that happens to a member of a cult is

776
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:41,439
Speaker 3: exactly what happens to somebody who gets into and gets

777
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:43,239
Speaker 3: stuck in a narcissistic.

778
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:45,640
Speaker 2: And that seems like the process of getting out of

779
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:48,200
Speaker 2: that relationship is as hard as getting out of as

780
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:48,680
Speaker 2: a cult.

781
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:52,080
Speaker 3: Absolutely, because it's fine. I say to people when you

782
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:54,960
Speaker 3: think about the breakups you've had from healthy relationships where

783
00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:57,200
Speaker 3: they hard, and people will say they were only hard

784
00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:00,279
Speaker 3: inasmuch as I missed the person and they were cool

785
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:03,560
Speaker 3: and we had fun. But there's not that like I

786
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:05,719
Speaker 3: can't sleep and I can't function, like there's a week

787
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:08,240
Speaker 3: or two of missing them, but you almost feel like, Okay,

788
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:12,080
Speaker 3: I can move on because the relationship didn't break you. Inside.

789
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:16,840
Speaker 3: Relationships with narcissistic people are what we call trauma bonded.

790
00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:20,480
Speaker 3: They're very volatile. They're characterized by lots of ups and downs,

791
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:24,080
Speaker 3: highs and lows. You keep having the same arguments about

792
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:26,719
Speaker 3: the same sorts of things. You don't feel like you

793
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:29,440
Speaker 3: can express your emotions in the relationship. You're ashamed of

794
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:32,160
Speaker 3: the relationship, so you feel like you can't talk to

795
00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:36,279
Speaker 3: other people about the relationship. You justify what's happening in

796
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:39,800
Speaker 3: the relationship so that you can feel okay about staying

797
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:42,359
Speaker 3: in it. It's a concept we call cognitive dissonance. So

798
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:45,960
Speaker 3: to keep things consistent, you have to justify what's happening

799
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:48,600
Speaker 3: in the relationship. There's a lot of breaking up and

800
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:51,680
Speaker 3: getting back together, breaking up and getting back together, and

801
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:56,000
Speaker 3: it's often a playing out of difficult relationships from earlier

802
00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:59,680
Speaker 3: in life, like, for example, an unavailable parent or some

803
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:03,640
Speaker 3: other chaotic early caregiver relationship that a person is trying

804
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:05,960
Speaker 3: to work through. And what the other thing we hear

805
00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:09,000
Speaker 3: in people in trauma bonded relationships is they say I

806
00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:12,520
Speaker 3: have a magical connection. They use things like magical connection,

807
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:18,279
Speaker 3: really like soul may twin flame, instant effort. When we

808
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:21,320
Speaker 3: hear that, when people say I have a magical connection,

809
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:23,840
Speaker 3: I'll say, tell me more, tell me what it is

810
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 3: you like about Well, I don't know, it's just something,

811
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:28,799
Speaker 3: it's just something like I can't put a word to it.

812
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:30,640
Speaker 3: I'm like you can't put a word to it, because

813
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:34,719
Speaker 3: you're trauma bonded. Magical connection is not a reason. And

814
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:38,600
Speaker 3: that kind of languaging is used because then it creates

815
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:42,040
Speaker 3: this once in a lifetime mythology. People feel like they

816
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:45,279
Speaker 3: cannot leave. They think they're in something so special. It's

817
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:48,399
Speaker 3: exactly the mythology these people had to create about their

818
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:52,360
Speaker 3: neglectual parents earlier in life. So they're replaying that fantasy

819
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:55,920
Speaker 3: that they had a good parent, and now they're creating

820
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:59,200
Speaker 3: that fantasy that they have this great partner. It's really sad.

821
00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:03,160
Speaker 3: But what happened is people who have a vulnerability that

822
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:06,399
Speaker 3: trauma bond and don't get to get therapy and get

823
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:09,359
Speaker 3: the chance to walk through it. There's a risk, there's

824
00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:12,280
Speaker 3: a real risk of them when they meet someone healthy

825
00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:15,960
Speaker 3: or kind, compassionate who sees the good in them, they'll say,

826
00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:18,359
Speaker 3: I don't know, I'm really bored in this relationship.

827
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:20,759
Speaker 1: Yeah right, right, Yeah, I got a friend who is

828
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:25,000
Speaker 1: suffering from that certainly. Yeah. I mean that sort of

829
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:26,960
Speaker 1: leads me to the next question. It's kind of a

830
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:28,840
Speaker 1: similar thing. So so so much of the process of

831
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 1: joining colts has to do with the emotional experiences that

832
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:34,560
Speaker 1: people have they feel like there is something magical happening.

833
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:37,239
Speaker 1: There's like just something special about the leader. They know,

834
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:42,440
Speaker 1: they just know that he's Some people literally like imagine

835
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:45,480
Speaker 1: that they see a glowing light around them.

836
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:47,239
Speaker 2: That one guy who made the documentary where he was

837
00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:49,040
Speaker 2: the cult leader. But then he told them at the end,

838
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:51,239
Speaker 2: I was just faking it, right, And they were like, no,

839
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:53,120
Speaker 2: you are a cult, you are leader.

840
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:56,239
Speaker 1: You know about our teacher. But I'm kidding, I'm pretending,

841
00:41:56,239 --> 00:42:00,440
Speaker 1: and I but you are right right the cognitive I mean, like,

842
00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:03,319
Speaker 1: I'm just interested in some of the emotional experiences that

843
00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:06,960
Speaker 1: can be manufactured by narcissists, So like love bombing being

844
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:12,000
Speaker 1: an example, making you feel so special everything you know, Wow,

845
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:16,960
Speaker 1: I've never felt so loved in my life. And what

846
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:18,839
Speaker 1: are some of what are some of the other kinds

847
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:22,160
Speaker 1: of emotional experiences that they're good at manufacturing or like yeah, so.

848
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 3: They're good at manufacturing the sense of desiring you like

849
00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:28,239
Speaker 3: no one else ever has. That's a very primal fantasy, right,

850
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:31,520
Speaker 3: that idea of deep monogamous desire. It's almost like what

851
00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:35,160
Speaker 3: the baby wanted from that motheryn't they or caregiver primary caregiver.

852
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:38,440
Speaker 3: They didn't want a separation between the baby infant wanted

853
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:41,200
Speaker 3: no separation, like we're all one person, right, So that

854
00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:44,839
Speaker 3: very cleaved kind of desire is something that the narcissistic

855
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:48,200
Speaker 3: person is so good at. They will use again one

856
00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:50,960
Speaker 3: of the most abusive phrases you could ever hear in

857
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:53,160
Speaker 3: a relationship. And this is the red flag of runaway.

858
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:55,239
Speaker 3: No one will ever love you the way I do.

859
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:58,040
Speaker 3: Pack your stuff and get out of there, like immediately

860
00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:01,200
Speaker 3: grab your ID, grab your phone out, because it's really

861
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:04,600
Speaker 3: a sign that they are now saying they're basically devaluing you.

862
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:09,440
Speaker 2: Why wouldn't everybody They love songs And I'm like, that's very.

863
00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:12,719
Speaker 3: Good, but it's very trauma bonded. Yeah, okay, so but

864
00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:15,439
Speaker 3: so there's this this mythology they create around no one's

865
00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:17,480
Speaker 3: ever going to have a love like this, no one's

866
00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:20,240
Speaker 3: going to love you like this. I see something special

867
00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:24,600
Speaker 3: in you, and where it really turns on that trauma switch,

868
00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:27,480
Speaker 3: that trauma bonded switches in childhood. These are often people

869
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:30,799
Speaker 3: didn't feel seen in childhood. So now I see the

870
00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:34,560
Speaker 3: magic in you, I see the specialness in you. But

871
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:37,000
Speaker 3: it's very mystical. When we fall in love with people.

872
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:39,280
Speaker 3: We do see something special in them, but we also

873
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:42,600
Speaker 3: see the flatulence and the you know, and and you

874
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:46,359
Speaker 3: know what you're talking, you know, So it's a very

875
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:49,040
Speaker 3: it's very different. That's one thing they do. The other

876
00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:52,919
Speaker 3: thing is that they are they're very good at give give, give,

877
00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:57,319
Speaker 3: pull back, give, give, pull back. That creates what I

878
00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:01,160
Speaker 3: call the slot machine paradox. Why do we stick out

879
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:03,680
Speaker 3: a slot machine because we think the jackpot's coming and

880
00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:05,680
Speaker 3: we get enough little hits like ooh, I just want

881
00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:07,799
Speaker 3: five bucks, Ooh, I just want ten bucks, ooh, I

882
00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 3: just got even money. But we think there's a lot

883
00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:12,399
Speaker 3: of bells and whistles going off. I'm sticking this one.

884
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:15,200
Speaker 3: I can't walk away from this machine. I've already put

885
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:18,120
Speaker 3: too much into it. Slot machines. That's how, what's why

886
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 3: slot machines work. And so they use a very specific

887
00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:23,480
Speaker 3: kind of reward schedule, so they are really good at that.

888
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:28,719
Speaker 3: They'll also do things like the love bombing, that first six, eight,

889
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:32,440
Speaker 3: sometimes twelve weeks of a relationship where it's gifts and

890
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:36,759
Speaker 3: extravagant experiences and massive vacations. You're the only one for me,

891
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:40,160
Speaker 3: and let's move in together. Should we move to Paris? Fast? Fast? Fast,

892
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:43,319
Speaker 3: so you're ignoring the red flags. You're so caught up

893
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:45,200
Speaker 3: in the fact that a dozen Roses keeps showing up

894
00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:49,680
Speaker 3: at your house every day that you're missing other really problematic, toxic,

895
00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:53,960
Speaker 3: controlling patterns that may be present in the relationship. All

896
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:56,480
Speaker 3: of this feels special, All of this feels fairy tale,

897
00:44:56,640 --> 00:44:59,759
Speaker 3: and it really activates a child's part of us that

898
00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:02,680
Speaker 3: to be true and the adult part even though it

899
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:06,239
Speaker 3: saying this seems like a lot, but then you know,

900
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:09,319
Speaker 3: I've heard sometimes and people it's the point I want

901
00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:12,399
Speaker 3: to make, and this happens in cults too. We want

902
00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:14,760
Speaker 3: to think of all people who get recruited into cults

903
00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:18,239
Speaker 3: as these sort of sad, lost souls. The hell they are,

904
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:21,120
Speaker 3: some of them are actually people really committed to self

905
00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:25,040
Speaker 3: development and they're really, really meaningfully trying to find answers

906
00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:28,480
Speaker 3: in their lives. The same thing in narcissistic relationships. I

907
00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:30,440
Speaker 3: can't tell you how many people I've met who were

908
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:34,760
Speaker 3: at the top of their games, professionally beautiful or attractive,

909
00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:40,200
Speaker 3: loved their lives, traveled a lot, you know, comfortable with

910
00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:43,319
Speaker 3: where they lived, all of those things, and then they

911
00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:46,080
Speaker 3: met a narcissistic person who loved behind them. You know

912
00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:48,680
Speaker 3: what they'd say, well, I deserve to be treated well.

913
00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:52,080
Speaker 3: So the narcissists even knows how to play that angle

914
00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:54,520
Speaker 3: a lot, but that in and out and they give, give, give,

915
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:57,120
Speaker 3: then they pull back a little bit. So now they've

916
00:45:57,160 --> 00:45:58,920
Speaker 3: got you on the hook. It's again back to that

917
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:01,600
Speaker 3: salt machine. But then the minute and a lot of

918
00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:03,360
Speaker 3: people are like, is this too good to be true? Like,

919
00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:07,480
Speaker 3: what's happening? A narcissist is love bombing? Grooming, grooming, love bombing,

920
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 3: And then one day you're all in, I'm really in

921
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:13,600
Speaker 3: love with you, let's move in. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you

922
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:14,759
Speaker 3: know I do. I want to spend the rest of

923
00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:18,240
Speaker 3: my life with you. And on that day the devaluing starts.

924
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:21,759
Speaker 3: Once they've got you, like a butterfly under glass, it's over.

925
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:22,720
Speaker 5: Yeah.

926
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:26,240
Speaker 1: We've talked about this experience I had with a very

927
00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:31,160
Speaker 1: famous rock star who's now disgraced rightfully, so where he

928
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:34,319
Speaker 1: was love bombing the shit out of me and I

929
00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:37,560
Speaker 1: knew it was happening, like I was able to recognize

930
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:40,000
Speaker 1: it just knowing what I know about life, But there

931
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:41,960
Speaker 1: was still a little part of me that was.

932
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:43,720
Speaker 3: Like, but maybe it's real.

933
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:45,920
Speaker 1: It's a little part of you know, even though I

934
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:49,280
Speaker 1: knew I knew, or sometimes like I know this isn't real,

935
00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:52,319
Speaker 1: but I don't. It still is fun and I think

936
00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:53,719
Speaker 1: that I have control over it.

937
00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:57,360
Speaker 2: This was like a control over I know what you're doing,

938
00:46:58,239 --> 00:47:01,640
Speaker 2: I see you. I can handle this and just have

939
00:47:01,719 --> 00:47:02,440
Speaker 2: some fun with it.

940
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:08,080
Speaker 1: No, yes, they maybe that's actually more more description of

941
00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:10,279
Speaker 1: what was happening. I was like, I can't, I know

942
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:13,840
Speaker 1: what's happening, but I can handle it because it feels good. Unfortunately,

943
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:16,520
Speaker 1: the circumstances were such that we didn't continue to date,

944
00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:22,000
Speaker 1: just like tour whatever happenstance. But I totally if that

945
00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:24,920
Speaker 1: had continued. Like I told you, he was he consumed

946
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:27,120
Speaker 1: my life in the like brief two weeks that we dated,

947
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:29,680
Speaker 1: like one hundred percent. I could see how how that

948
00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:31,400
Speaker 1: would turn so abusive so fast.

949
00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:33,560
Speaker 2: And that's a big word for me too in my

950
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:35,279
Speaker 2: journey of narcissism.

951
00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:36,320
Speaker 1: Just consume.

952
00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:40,400
Speaker 2: Like I just remember being so miserable, like lost so

953
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:42,520
Speaker 2: much weight, so sick to my stomach.

954
00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:43,399
Speaker 3: Over this relationship.

955
00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:45,279
Speaker 2: And I just heard I think it was probably you.

956
00:47:45,120 --> 00:47:47,680
Speaker 3: You're like as we've spoken about sus.

957
00:47:47,719 --> 00:47:50,120
Speaker 1: But you know they consume you.

958
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:53,200
Speaker 3: I think it's a beautiful word because imagine they're taking

959
00:47:53,239 --> 00:47:55,680
Speaker 3: all your supply. Yeah, what does that mean?

960
00:47:55,719 --> 00:47:56,799
Speaker 1: Like your energy, your.

961
00:47:56,760 --> 00:47:59,880
Speaker 3: Energy, they need all of you. Right, it's the baby

962
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:01,919
Speaker 3: that's completely enveloped the mother.

963
00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:02,200
Speaker 5: Right.

964
00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:06,200
Speaker 3: The idea of mothering parenting, well, is that like that's you,

965
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:08,479
Speaker 3: that's me. Sometimes I'm not going to be here on time.

966
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:11,239
Speaker 3: You're going to slowly learn to be your own person. Right.

967
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:16,239
Speaker 3: Narcissistic person is literally like they're like almost parasitic. They

968
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:19,880
Speaker 3: just want they want to suck out of everything. Sometimes

969
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:23,399
Speaker 3: it's resources, sometimes it's money, sometimes it's connections, but usually

970
00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:26,880
Speaker 3: it's your energy and time exactly. But people see that

971
00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:29,120
Speaker 3: as they want to be with me all the time.

972
00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:31,799
Speaker 3: This is a love story. This is sweeping. And here's

973
00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:34,719
Speaker 3: where it gets tricky and this dating world we're in.

974
00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:36,200
Speaker 3: One of the complaints I hear from a lot of

975
00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:38,359
Speaker 3: people's like, oh my god, this person won't text me back,

976
00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:40,279
Speaker 3: they won't call me back, they don't want to spend

977
00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:42,760
Speaker 3: time with me. If you're coming out of a relationship

978
00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:45,759
Speaker 3: where somebody didn't want to like it always felt like

979
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:47,759
Speaker 3: it was hard to get them to spend time with you,

980
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:50,560
Speaker 3: then a big love bombing narcissist comes in. You're so much,

981
00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:53,560
Speaker 3: you are so vulnerable because it feels like a correction,

982
00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:56,040
Speaker 3: and you're like, see this is how it's supposed to be.

983
00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:58,839
Speaker 1: Right, Yes, oh my god, I relate to that so hard.

984
00:48:58,880 --> 00:48:59,640
Speaker 3: I thought sucks.

985
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:02,719
Speaker 2: And then eight weeks later you're like, damn.

986
00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:06,359
Speaker 3: And but your point about like, well, I'm gonna I'm

987
00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:08,680
Speaker 3: going to ride this out six weeks, eight weeks, I

988
00:49:08,719 --> 00:49:11,719
Speaker 3: know what I'm dealing with. Here's the challenge is, even

989
00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:14,040
Speaker 3: if you're clever and you're like, okay, I got the,

990
00:49:14,080 --> 00:49:16,359
Speaker 3: I got the it's like eating just the frosted top

991
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:18,240
Speaker 3: of a cupcake, right, Like, I don't need the stump

992
00:49:18,239 --> 00:49:20,960
Speaker 3: at this cupcake. The problem is that Stump's going to

993
00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:24,440
Speaker 3: come looking for you. They hoover, They will try to

994
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:27,359
Speaker 3: pull you in. They oh, now they know your vulnerabilities

995
00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:29,799
Speaker 3: because a big part of love bombing it's not just

996
00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:33,960
Speaker 3: roses and vacations. It's tell me everything about you. Yes, look,

997
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:36,920
Speaker 3: I feel like I'm looking into your soul, tell me

998
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:37,880
Speaker 3: your deepest fear.

999
00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:40,480
Speaker 1: I mean, I think of Nexium and the exercises they

1000
00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:43,040
Speaker 1: did where they made everybody like share all of their

1001
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:46,040
Speaker 1: traumas in front of everyone, and it, you know, feels

1002
00:49:46,160 --> 00:49:49,239
Speaker 1: very intimate and connecting, but it gets used against them.

1003
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:52,400
Speaker 3: It's collection of collateral. Anytime, tell me your greatest fear

1004
00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:55,520
Speaker 3: is basically them taking that stuff and they're going to

1005
00:49:55,880 --> 00:49:59,239
Speaker 3: melt that down into bullets when they come. Really, is

1006
00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:02,400
Speaker 3: that an interesting The chubby girl now feels confident. You

1007
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:04,480
Speaker 3: think you're gonna go out there and date and find someone.

1008
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:07,520
Speaker 3: You've even put on some weight in this relationship, and

1009
00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:10,719
Speaker 3: so they find that thing you said, like, oh I

1010
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:14,560
Speaker 3: once lost seventy five pounds. They get in there. Now

1011
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:17,480
Speaker 3: you're doubting yourself and you start thinking, well, oh maybe

1012
00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:19,920
Speaker 3: I should stay in this, and you're in there, then

1013
00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:24,120
Speaker 3: they kind of disappear. Many people have abandonment fears. Narcissists

1014
00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:26,120
Speaker 3: have more than the rest of us, but like, well

1015
00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:28,319
Speaker 3: what did I do? And then you're so grateful when

1016
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:30,839
Speaker 3: they come back. That's the dance they play in. They're

1017
00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:33,120
Speaker 3: masterful at. That whole process is called hoovering.

1018
00:50:34,600 --> 00:50:37,360
Speaker 1: So if we were to meet someone who we know

1019
00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:40,680
Speaker 1: is a narcissist, we all the signs, all the characteristics,

1020
00:50:40,680 --> 00:50:44,399
Speaker 1: but it's so fun. Do you think entertain that at all?

1021
00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:46,319
Speaker 1: Or just like bounce.

1022
00:50:46,080 --> 00:50:48,880
Speaker 3: Out oh god, no entertaining, because like this is almost

1023
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:52,520
Speaker 3: like saying, look, somebody left a bucket of grenades in

1024
00:50:52,560 --> 00:50:55,040
Speaker 3: my front yard. I'm gonna put them on my bookshelves

1025
00:50:55,080 --> 00:50:57,720
Speaker 3: and decorate them. I'm gonna roll them and play bowling

1026
00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:00,440
Speaker 3: with them. No no, no, no, I'm not playing with

1027
00:51:00,440 --> 00:51:02,960
Speaker 3: the ranids. We're leaving them outside and hoping that the

1028
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:06,160
Speaker 3: mean person who left them. And remember the less engaged

1029
00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:09,520
Speaker 3: you are with a narcissist. Initially, narcissists are like lions

1030
00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:12,160
Speaker 3: hunting out that weakest gazelle, if you will, right like

1031
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:13,839
Speaker 3: that one's not going to be able to get away

1032
00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:16,920
Speaker 3: fast now, but they will. They're going from person to person,

1033
00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:19,399
Speaker 3: and if they sense that they can't penetrate their onto

1034
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:21,480
Speaker 3: the next, onto the next, like they're good at cutting

1035
00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:25,120
Speaker 3: their losses early. And the hard to get is a

1036
00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:26,919
Speaker 3: thing too, like oh I wonder if I can get them.

1037
00:51:27,080 --> 00:51:28,840
Speaker 3: But they're only going to try it a few times,

1038
00:51:29,080 --> 00:51:31,560
Speaker 3: you know, because if you're not really falling for the

1039
00:51:31,640 --> 00:51:34,200
Speaker 3: charm charism a bit, you know, I have to say

1040
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:38,200
Speaker 3: I have been. I've been many more pre COVID. But

1041
00:51:38,239 --> 00:51:40,799
Speaker 3: even now, people are getting together at a party where

1042
00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:43,200
Speaker 3: there is that person holding court and all that. I'll

1043
00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:44,560
Speaker 3: usually get up walk away.

1044
00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:45,319
Speaker 4: You know.

1045
00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:47,200
Speaker 3: Sometimes I'll even go to a different part and play

1046
00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:48,960
Speaker 3: like this game I have on my phone. I'm a

1047
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:52,120
Speaker 3: Candy Crush fan. I will play Candy Crush.

1048
00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:53,280
Speaker 1: Right in front of them.

1049
00:51:53,600 --> 00:51:56,480
Speaker 3: You know, I don't look at this. I got the

1050
00:51:56,520 --> 00:52:01,080
Speaker 3: special color. It's more interesting than you. But the idea

1051
00:52:01,160 --> 00:52:03,879
Speaker 3: that you're not hanging on their every word, they will

1052
00:52:03,880 --> 00:52:06,160
Speaker 3: then have contempt for you. A lot of people don't

1053
00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:08,640
Speaker 3: like that somebody doesn't like them, like I want to

1054
00:52:08,680 --> 00:52:11,160
Speaker 3: win them over and for Actually, one of the nervous

1055
00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:13,800
Speaker 3: system responses sometimes people have. A guy named Pete Walker

1056
00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:17,279
Speaker 3: writes about this is fawning over the narcisses. Oh, you're

1057
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:19,400
Speaker 3: so amazing, You're so smart, and then la after like

1058
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:21,400
Speaker 3: why did I say that? He's such a jerk. Like

1059
00:52:21,440 --> 00:52:24,920
Speaker 3: you find yourself almost unconsciously wanting to connect with these

1060
00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:27,920
Speaker 3: people who seem so much larger than life. It's a

1061
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:32,080
Speaker 3: real skill to fall through that, and especially when it

1062
00:52:32,080 --> 00:52:34,520
Speaker 3: comes to the charismatic types. But what's tricky is those

1063
00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:37,960
Speaker 3: vulnerable types that kind of seem sort of sad and lost,

1064
00:52:38,239 --> 00:52:39,840
Speaker 3: and you want to help them with their anxiety and

1065
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:41,840
Speaker 3: they're sort of sitting in the side of the party

1066
00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:46,120
Speaker 3: and saying, you know, listen, you should be back with them,

1067
00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:47,960
Speaker 3: like nothing's really worked out in my life, you should

1068
00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:51,360
Speaker 3: And you're like, no, no, noh, my gosh, why yourself.

1069
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:54,080
Speaker 1: I would be a sucker for that for sure.

1070
00:52:54,280 --> 00:52:56,239
Speaker 2: So how do you tell if somebody has a like

1071
00:52:56,280 --> 00:52:59,920
Speaker 2: an anxious attachment style of their nurse A covert narcisses.

1072
00:52:59,560 --> 00:53:03,120
Speaker 3: Well, vulner bowl slash covert narcissists all have anxious attachment styles,

1073
00:53:03,440 --> 00:53:06,960
Speaker 3: So it's an anxious attachment style is a part of narcissism.

1074
00:53:07,080 --> 00:53:09,080
Speaker 3: Does that make sense? So it doesn't mean that all

1075
00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:12,080
Speaker 3: anxiously attached people are narcissistic, by the way, But if

1076
00:53:12,120 --> 00:53:14,360
Speaker 3: you throw in there, for example, look for the passive

1077
00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:17,600
Speaker 3: aggressive stuff that comes out early, so that that vulnerable

1078
00:53:17,640 --> 00:53:20,279
Speaker 3: narcissist you're chatting with at the parties, say that guy

1079
00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:22,840
Speaker 3: makes me sick him his trust fun If I had

1080
00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:25,200
Speaker 3: a trust fund, and it's a lot of that grudging

1081
00:53:25,360 --> 00:53:30,520
Speaker 3: like I had this, if I had that, and get out,

1082
00:53:31,040 --> 00:53:34,400
Speaker 3: get out away from that person. And you might think, like,

1083
00:53:34,440 --> 00:53:36,040
Speaker 3: how sad for them they didn't have a trust fund.

1084
00:53:36,080 --> 00:53:41,040
Speaker 3: I mean, get in line, bro, I mean me everybody else.

1085
00:53:41,280 --> 00:53:42,360
Speaker 1: I'm like a person.

1086
00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:45,799
Speaker 2: I'm obsessed with figuring out how we can make an

1087
00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:48,400
Speaker 2: internal good narcissism in our own brains.

1088
00:53:48,600 --> 00:53:51,200
Speaker 3: You I don't. I don't buy into the concept of

1089
00:53:51,239 --> 00:53:57,040
Speaker 3: healthier good narcissism. Now, the state of narcissism is antagonistic,

1090
00:53:57,719 --> 00:54:02,719
Speaker 3: it is unempathic, it is titled, it is difficult, it

1091
00:54:02,760 --> 00:54:05,359
Speaker 3: harms other people. Makes sense, So there's no healthy version

1092
00:54:05,400 --> 00:54:11,440
Speaker 3: of that. You're thinking about things like healthy assertiveness, self valuation,

1093
00:54:12,239 --> 00:54:15,319
Speaker 3: self advocacy. I can get behind those words. I will

1094
00:54:15,360 --> 00:54:17,640
Speaker 3: not get behind the word healthy narciss How is there

1095
00:54:17,680 --> 00:54:18,320
Speaker 3: a healthy.

1096
00:54:18,120 --> 00:54:24,240
Speaker 2: Version of It's just interesting how society organizes itself around narcissists.

1097
00:54:24,920 --> 00:54:26,680
Speaker 1: And it's like we need.

1098
00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:29,400
Speaker 2: Somebody who's just like, I know all the answers or something.

1099
00:54:29,920 --> 00:54:31,840
Speaker 3: But anyone who says they know all the answers is

1100
00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:33,080
Speaker 3: lying down because.

1101
00:54:34,840 --> 00:54:38,400
Speaker 2: But it's just like, how do we convince ourselves that

1102
00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:41,440
Speaker 2: we have some answers too, so we don't get sucked into.

1103
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:43,000
Speaker 1: These How do we have more confidence?

1104
00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:44,000
Speaker 2: Right?

1105
00:54:44,080 --> 00:54:44,720
Speaker 3: Real confidence?

1106
00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:44,880
Speaker 5: Right?

1107
00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:47,680
Speaker 3: Because I always say, there's this thing called the C suite,

1108
00:54:47,680 --> 00:54:49,520
Speaker 3: and that's why people get you know, people are drawn

1109
00:54:49,520 --> 00:54:55,359
Speaker 3: to narcissistic people. They're charming, they're charismatic, they're confident, they're curious,

1110
00:54:55,640 --> 00:54:58,879
Speaker 3: they have great credentials, and in a weird sick way,

1111
00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:00,800
Speaker 3: especially if you had a narcis systick parents, there's a

1112
00:55:00,840 --> 00:55:03,759
Speaker 3: comfort in them. They're familiar, if you will, right, and

1113
00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:07,560
Speaker 3: so for all those reasons we naturally get drawn to them.

1114
00:55:07,760 --> 00:55:11,200
Speaker 3: But we confidence is not a noisy state, and unfortunately,

1115
00:55:11,239 --> 00:55:13,200
Speaker 3: and especially in the United States, there's a sense of

1116
00:55:13,320 --> 00:55:15,759
Speaker 3: the confident person's like I know that, I know this,

1117
00:55:15,960 --> 00:55:20,400
Speaker 3: I have the answers, whereas a really confident person tends

1118
00:55:20,440 --> 00:55:22,719
Speaker 3: to be there tends to be some humility there. It's

1119
00:55:22,719 --> 00:55:25,640
Speaker 3: not that they're putting themselves down. They know the answer,

1120
00:55:26,080 --> 00:55:28,920
Speaker 3: and if somebody specifically says them, say, hey do you know, yeah,

1121
00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:31,239
Speaker 3: sure we can. This is how I would approach it.

1122
00:55:31,280 --> 00:55:34,560
Speaker 3: But they wouldn't be like contemptuous or you know.

1123
00:55:34,560 --> 00:55:36,600
Speaker 1: They're feeling like not really loud about it.

1124
00:55:36,719 --> 00:55:36,919
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1125
00:55:37,000 --> 00:55:41,040
Speaker 3: No, confident people tend to be They tend to be

1126
00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:44,319
Speaker 3: quiet and appropriate, and they know how to advocate, they

1127
00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:47,000
Speaker 3: know how to make their point known, but they also

1128
00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:50,080
Speaker 3: do it with humility. That's healthy confidence, right, But the

1129
00:55:50,160 --> 00:55:53,080
Speaker 3: narcissistic confidence, it is actually often false. It's a false

1130
00:55:53,080 --> 00:55:55,400
Speaker 3: state because they don't even know the answers. But we

1131
00:55:56,400 --> 00:55:59,360
Speaker 3: like that idea of the person who strolls in and

1132
00:56:00,200 --> 00:56:04,400
Speaker 3: acts like they know everything, and we know this a

1133
00:56:04,440 --> 00:56:07,759
Speaker 3: couple of things we know. Narcissistic people are more likely

1134
00:56:07,840 --> 00:56:11,200
Speaker 3: to be overrepresented in leadership. Part of that is because

1135
00:56:11,200 --> 00:56:14,000
Speaker 3: they want to be leaders. The rest of us we

1136
00:56:14,120 --> 00:56:16,200
Speaker 3: often are like, I don't need to be in charge.

1137
00:56:16,239 --> 00:56:19,680
Speaker 3: It's like twenty dollars more, you know a day, not

1138
00:56:19,960 --> 00:56:22,520
Speaker 3: you know. I like going home to my family, I

1139
00:56:22,600 --> 00:56:24,799
Speaker 3: like being able to engage in my hobby. But I

1140
00:56:24,840 --> 00:56:26,440
Speaker 3: need to be in charge. I need to be the

1141
00:56:26,440 --> 00:56:28,640
Speaker 3: one I need to, you know. And it's that that

1142
00:56:28,840 --> 00:56:33,040
Speaker 3: need for power and control. It is what often drives

1143
00:56:33,080 --> 00:56:35,920
Speaker 3: the narcissistic person. So it's not a good motivation. And

1144
00:56:35,920 --> 00:56:38,360
Speaker 3: that's not to say all leaders are narcissistic. There's a

1145
00:56:38,360 --> 00:56:41,840
Speaker 3: lot of leaders out there that aren't, but they're getting

1146
00:56:41,840 --> 00:56:44,840
Speaker 3: to be fewer and more far between. Is the challenge,

1147
00:56:44,920 --> 00:56:46,879
Speaker 3: because the way the systems are set up is something

1148
00:56:46,920 --> 00:56:50,640
Speaker 3: I call the Golden Goose model. Narcissists are very profitable

1149
00:56:50,640 --> 00:56:54,799
Speaker 3: to companies. They often close more sales, they're much more aggressive,

1150
00:56:54,880 --> 00:56:57,400
Speaker 3: they're willing to throw people under the bus. Well, I

1151
00:56:57,440 --> 00:56:59,880
Speaker 3: can often result in a lot more money, So everyone's

1152
00:57:00,560 --> 00:57:02,760
Speaker 3: we really don't want to call this person out. Hopefully

1153
00:57:02,840 --> 00:57:05,160
Speaker 3: they don't harass someone too much because we don't want

1154
00:57:05,160 --> 00:57:08,120
Speaker 3: to kill the golden goose, right, And that golden goose

1155
00:57:08,160 --> 00:57:11,920
Speaker 3: model often means that person gets advanced. And narcissists are smart.

1156
00:57:12,200 --> 00:57:14,399
Speaker 3: They don't tend to punch up. They tend to punch down.

1157
00:57:14,760 --> 00:57:17,680
Speaker 3: So they will kiss the dairy ers of the people

1158
00:57:17,680 --> 00:57:19,520
Speaker 3: who are at the top of the game. They will

1159
00:57:19,520 --> 00:57:22,840
Speaker 3: abuse the people under and they're so good at that

1160
00:57:22,840 --> 00:57:25,320
Speaker 3: that butt kissing game that they do keep going and

1161
00:57:25,360 --> 00:57:28,160
Speaker 3: they're making money for the company. Right, That's why. And

1162
00:57:28,200 --> 00:57:31,600
Speaker 3: in celebrities and celebrity and narcissism is highly highly correlated.

1163
00:57:31,600 --> 00:57:35,080
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, Hollywood, Yeah, absolutely those qualities and

1164
00:57:35,200 --> 00:57:38,280
Speaker 1: I and I understand why you would say, like, how

1165
00:57:38,280 --> 00:57:41,160
Speaker 1: can we have healthy narcissism, because we do get rewarded

1166
00:57:41,200 --> 00:57:42,880
Speaker 1: when we behave like a narcissist.

1167
00:57:43,520 --> 00:57:46,120
Speaker 3: That's not healthy. That's that's means that the world is unhealthy.

1168
00:57:46,120 --> 00:57:48,800
Speaker 3: The world that's rewarding is we do live.

1169
00:57:48,640 --> 00:57:51,440
Speaker 1: In a capitalistic society that like rewards us if we

1170
00:57:51,480 --> 00:57:53,960
Speaker 1: make more money rewards us if we have more followers,

1171
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:56,200
Speaker 1: you know, like the more that we engage in those behaviors,

1172
00:57:57,120 --> 00:57:58,560
Speaker 1: the better our.

1173
00:57:58,440 --> 00:58:02,240
Speaker 3: Lives could correct. It's hard in a capitalist system to

1174
00:58:02,280 --> 00:58:05,160
Speaker 3: make it too far without being pretty narcissistic. It's hard. Yeah,

1175
00:58:05,160 --> 00:58:07,280
Speaker 3: people have done it. People have done it, but yeah, hard.

1176
00:58:07,280 --> 00:58:09,640
Speaker 3: I haven't seen too many stackcases. Yeah, there's like three people.

1177
00:58:11,920 --> 00:58:13,600
Speaker 3: One of them were taking out to dinner because do

1178
00:58:13,600 --> 00:58:14,240
Speaker 3: you like where are they?

1179
00:58:14,280 --> 00:58:14,680
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1180
00:58:14,960 --> 00:58:18,400
Speaker 2: Do narcissists prey or like know some sometimes Like I'll

1181
00:58:19,560 --> 00:58:22,360
Speaker 2: I know somebody who is a narcissist for sure, and

1182
00:58:22,760 --> 00:58:26,080
Speaker 2: they're very you know, grand and all of that stuff,

1183
00:58:26,080 --> 00:58:27,840
Speaker 2: and sometimes I just feel sorry for them and we'll

1184
00:58:27,880 --> 00:58:30,280
Speaker 2: kind of play along. Do they know that people are

1185
00:58:30,320 --> 00:58:32,480
Speaker 2: sometimes playing along with them and they still don't give

1186
00:58:32,480 --> 00:58:34,360
Speaker 2: a shit? Or would they be so mad if they

1187
00:58:34,440 --> 00:58:36,280
Speaker 2: knew you were like pitying them, or.

1188
00:58:36,440 --> 00:58:39,440
Speaker 3: If they knew you were pitying them, they would become rageful.

1189
00:58:39,520 --> 00:58:42,400
Speaker 3: In fact, narcissistic people hate the idea that people have

1190
00:58:42,440 --> 00:58:45,200
Speaker 3: to walk on eggshells around them. They often think, I'm

1191
00:58:45,200 --> 00:58:47,720
Speaker 3: so cool, I'm so chill, I'm so easy to be

1192
00:58:47,760 --> 00:58:52,000
Speaker 3: around with. So if everyone's like this around them, malignant

1193
00:58:52,080 --> 00:58:56,960
Speaker 3: narcissists get off on that they cult leaders like that, right,

1194
00:58:57,360 --> 00:58:59,520
Speaker 3: but they don't like being called like they would hate

1195
00:58:59,520 --> 00:59:01,640
Speaker 3: it if someone else called. How could you say that

1196
00:59:01,880 --> 00:59:05,040
Speaker 3: I am running this sort of place of fear. I

1197
00:59:05,600 --> 00:59:09,480
Speaker 3: believe in healing, I believe in spirituality. I believe in

1198
00:59:09,520 --> 00:59:11,800
Speaker 3: the goodness of all these people in the room. So

1199
00:59:11,840 --> 00:59:14,680
Speaker 3: there's this image they're trying to sell. But when it's

1200
00:59:14,680 --> 00:59:19,560
Speaker 3: not the malignant narcissist, grandiose, vulnerable narcissists, communal narcissists don't

1201
00:59:19,640 --> 00:59:23,200
Speaker 3: like the idea that that people are walking on actuals.

1202
00:59:23,200 --> 00:59:25,600
Speaker 3: They like to think they're chill, and the communal narcissists

1203
00:59:25,600 --> 00:59:27,720
Speaker 3: are often ones that go on to become cult leaders.

1204
00:59:28,240 --> 00:59:32,400
Speaker 3: So communal narcissists are narcissistic people who get their admiration

1205
00:59:32,520 --> 00:59:35,280
Speaker 3: and validation by doing what are perceived to be good

1206
00:59:35,320 --> 00:59:41,560
Speaker 3: deeds and acts. They pitch themselves as humanitarians and communal narcissist.

1207
00:59:41,640 --> 00:59:43,880
Speaker 1: I was I mean till Swan came to mind for

1208
00:59:44,000 --> 00:59:46,080
Speaker 1: me because I feel like the version of a cult

1209
00:59:46,120 --> 00:59:48,120
Speaker 1: leader where it's not about sex, what is it about.

1210
00:59:48,200 --> 00:59:50,120
Speaker 1: It's like someone who really thinks that they have the

1211
00:59:50,200 --> 00:59:54,040
Speaker 1: answers and are helping people that that's that's Do you

1212
00:59:54,080 --> 00:59:55,440
Speaker 1: have any examples of that?

1213
00:59:56,280 --> 00:59:59,160
Speaker 3: You know, I don't have name examples, but like the Bigroom,

1214
00:59:59,200 --> 01:00:02,160
Speaker 3: but yoga guy, Yes, that's a great example of a trial.

1215
01:00:02,280 --> 01:00:05,840
Speaker 3: Narcissistic leader might even be full on psychopathy in that

1216
01:00:05,880 --> 01:00:08,840
Speaker 3: particular case. But this person who was like, you know,

1217
01:00:08,880 --> 01:00:10,120
Speaker 3: you're going to get this out of this, sou and

1218
01:00:10,200 --> 01:00:12,120
Speaker 3: I care so much and I want people to heal,

1219
01:00:12,160 --> 01:00:14,960
Speaker 3: and I want people to grow, and I and they

1220
01:00:15,000 --> 01:00:17,440
Speaker 3: want to be viewed as a living saint, you know,

1221
01:00:17,560 --> 01:00:22,600
Speaker 3: so in the spirituality, heally you know, come listen to me,

1222
01:00:22,760 --> 01:00:25,480
Speaker 3: follow me world. Yeah, a lot of communal society.

1223
01:00:25,480 --> 01:00:27,280
Speaker 1: Okay, can we talk about that really fast? We have

1224
01:00:27,520 --> 01:00:29,400
Speaker 1: getting kind of short on time, but like, talk to

1225
01:00:29,480 --> 01:00:31,640
Speaker 1: us about how you feel about the idea of a healer.

1226
01:00:32,040 --> 01:00:35,240
Speaker 3: I'm very very very cautious and careful. I'm because my

1227
01:00:35,320 --> 01:00:39,480
Speaker 3: concern is a lot of healers are it's branding now,

1228
01:00:39,960 --> 01:00:42,080
Speaker 3: and it is a way to get people to sort

1229
01:00:42,080 --> 01:00:45,720
Speaker 3: of blindly follow them. And sometimes I mean, let's face it, all,

1230
01:00:46,120 --> 01:00:48,520
Speaker 3: all Caul su pyramid schemes, right, the only work because

1231
01:00:48,560 --> 01:00:50,800
Speaker 3: you keep bringing in more and more people into the

1232
01:00:51,120 --> 01:00:53,520
Speaker 3: into the lower level so they're looking for people to

1233
01:00:53,640 --> 01:00:56,240
Speaker 3: keep following following, you know, but in a way where

1234
01:00:56,280 --> 01:00:58,800
Speaker 3: it's it's with a blind devotion. But my concern with

1235
01:00:58,840 --> 01:01:00,720
Speaker 3: healers is that there's a lot of need for power.

1236
01:01:00,720 --> 01:01:02,680
Speaker 3: There can be a lot of a need for control.

1237
01:01:03,080 --> 01:01:05,760
Speaker 3: There is a if anyone calls them out on their

1238
01:01:05,760 --> 01:01:08,600
Speaker 3: healing powers, they get angry. Right, So somebody said to me,

1239
01:01:08,680 --> 01:01:10,400
Speaker 3: right now, you know what, I don't know that what

1240
01:01:10,400 --> 01:01:13,000
Speaker 3: you do in narcissism works. I'm like, I'm happy to

1241
01:01:13,040 --> 01:01:15,040
Speaker 3: listen to you. You know, Like there's I think there's

1242
01:01:15,120 --> 01:01:18,120
Speaker 3: there's many ways. It's that idea of that there's a

1243
01:01:18,160 --> 01:01:22,160
Speaker 3: tremendous defensiveness. There can even be a vindictiveness. If somebody

1244
01:01:22,240 --> 01:01:26,400
Speaker 3: is trying to say, like be careful, they will then

1245
01:01:26,440 --> 01:01:29,960
Speaker 3: what they'll do. And when healer people, so called healers

1246
01:01:30,000 --> 01:01:33,000
Speaker 3: will say we must throw away all traditional mental health.

1247
01:01:33,440 --> 01:01:36,600
Speaker 3: They are trying to destroy and poison you. I'm like

1248
01:01:36,640 --> 01:01:39,000
Speaker 3: the first one to say traditional mental health doesn't always work.

1249
01:01:39,040 --> 01:01:42,040
Speaker 3: But they want to all of western medicine bad, all

1250
01:01:42,080 --> 01:01:45,720
Speaker 3: of mental health bad. Right, you know, so entire things bad,

1251
01:01:46,200 --> 01:01:49,959
Speaker 3: but me good, but me good? Right, there's no circumspection

1252
01:01:50,400 --> 01:01:53,160
Speaker 3: and and the fact is, here's the thing. I do

1253
01:01:53,240 --> 01:01:55,080
Speaker 3: think that there are people out there who are very

1254
01:01:55,120 --> 01:01:58,000
Speaker 3: well intentioned and really do have a healthy message, and

1255
01:01:58,000 --> 01:02:01,320
Speaker 3: they're not looking for power and control. Be very uncomfortable

1256
01:02:01,560 --> 01:02:04,440
Speaker 3: if people were giving them money or following them as

1257
01:02:04,520 --> 01:02:06,440
Speaker 3: devotees or anything like that. I do think there are

1258
01:02:06,440 --> 01:02:09,439
Speaker 3: people out there, and I would not walk around calling

1259
01:02:09,480 --> 01:02:13,200
Speaker 3: myself a healer. Okay, I'm a psychologist, and I spent

1260
01:02:13,600 --> 01:02:17,200
Speaker 3: five years in undergrad, six years in grad school, a

1261
01:02:17,280 --> 01:02:20,400
Speaker 3: year in an internship, two years on a postdoc, took

1262
01:02:20,400 --> 01:02:23,640
Speaker 3: a series of very difficult exams. What's that? Thirteen years

1263
01:02:24,280 --> 01:02:26,360
Speaker 3: that was not that? I mean that was a and

1264
01:02:26,400 --> 01:02:29,520
Speaker 3: then on top of that many many years continuing to

1265
01:02:29,560 --> 01:02:32,840
Speaker 3: have to take classes like I'm very uncomfortable people saying

1266
01:02:32,840 --> 01:02:34,960
Speaker 3: I sat on a mountain and a light came to

1267
01:02:35,000 --> 01:02:37,880
Speaker 3: me and now I can heal you. It's very, very,

1268
01:02:38,000 --> 01:02:40,960
Speaker 3: very dangerous, and I think when that's done with arrogance,

1269
01:02:41,440 --> 01:02:44,400
Speaker 3: and I think a lot of communal, narcissistic people I

1270
01:02:44,520 --> 01:02:47,120
Speaker 3: need validation for you know, they want the validation for

1271
01:02:47,200 --> 01:02:50,240
Speaker 3: being the good healer. Look how wonderful I am. Tell

1272
01:02:50,280 --> 01:02:53,400
Speaker 3: me how wonderful I am, and can do a lot

1273
01:02:53,440 --> 01:02:55,400
Speaker 3: of harm. And what people will say is that these

1274
01:02:55,640 --> 01:03:00,000
Speaker 3: communal narcissistic healer leader types behind closed doors are cruel,

1275
01:03:00,520 --> 01:03:04,880
Speaker 3: oh abusive and yelling and screaming. And then to public,

1276
01:03:05,280 --> 01:03:09,400
Speaker 3: they costume themselves with whatever gurus are supposed to wear.

1277
01:03:09,520 --> 01:03:11,520
Speaker 3: I guess it's flowing white robes. I don't know what

1278
01:03:11,640 --> 01:03:14,280
Speaker 3: the guru section of the story looks like, but they'll

1279
01:03:14,320 --> 01:03:18,840
Speaker 3: wear this costuming and they'll talk in these really breathy tones.

1280
01:03:19,120 --> 01:03:22,880
Speaker 3: They and their staff is like their staff all looks

1281
01:03:22,920 --> 01:03:24,800
Speaker 3: like they've their combat. You know. That's kind of like

1282
01:03:24,840 --> 01:03:25,480
Speaker 3: Ellen too.

1283
01:03:25,840 --> 01:03:27,680
Speaker 2: I know it's not a spiritual thing, but like she

1284
01:03:27,800 --> 01:03:31,520
Speaker 2: talks to host yeah, yeah, you know right, yeah, I'm

1285
01:03:31,560 --> 01:03:32,640
Speaker 2: so not really.

1286
01:03:32,440 --> 01:03:38,160
Speaker 3: What this kindness preach kindness and don't yeah, exactly exactly.

1287
01:03:38,320 --> 01:03:41,880
Speaker 3: And so that's it's those sorts of folks where people

1288
01:03:42,040 --> 01:03:44,720
Speaker 3: there's a lot of idolizing of these folks who seem

1289
01:03:44,760 --> 01:03:47,080
Speaker 3: like they're just doing all this good, but they're harming others.

1290
01:03:47,240 --> 01:03:50,000
Speaker 3: It's all about are they harming? I look at if

1291
01:03:50,040 --> 01:03:53,400
Speaker 3: somebody really is like they may be healy because they're

1292
01:03:53,440 --> 01:03:55,840
Speaker 3: actually able to hold space for someone and be present

1293
01:03:55,880 --> 01:03:58,200
Speaker 3: with them. They may not even be trained in mental

1294
01:03:58,280 --> 01:04:00,720
Speaker 3: health but you see this in the past space. You'll

1295
01:04:00,720 --> 01:04:02,600
Speaker 3: see this in some you know, even like sponsored like

1296
01:04:02,640 --> 01:04:05,400
Speaker 3: twelve Steps sponsorship spaces, or actually some people out there

1297
01:04:05,520 --> 01:04:07,840
Speaker 3: who are just able to be present with someone else's pain.

1298
01:04:08,560 --> 01:04:11,680
Speaker 1: Great, So our producer over there behind the glass, Steve,

1299
01:04:11,960 --> 01:04:16,840
Speaker 1: wanted to know, can we save the children? I cannot

1300
01:04:16,880 --> 01:04:17,680
Speaker 1: use that phrase anywhere.

1301
01:04:17,920 --> 01:04:18,240
Speaker 4: Can we.

1302
01:04:20,440 --> 01:04:23,600
Speaker 1: Prevent children from becoming narcissists?

1303
01:04:23,840 --> 01:04:27,280
Speaker 3: It's a big question. So here's the struggle, right, because

1304
01:04:27,400 --> 01:04:30,880
Speaker 3: narcissism is what we call multi determined, okay, meaning there's

1305
01:04:30,920 --> 01:04:33,120
Speaker 3: a lot of things that shape whether or not someone

1306
01:04:33,160 --> 01:04:35,240
Speaker 3: will become narcissistic. Because you can be in a family

1307
01:04:35,400 --> 01:04:38,400
Speaker 3: and have one sibling who's ragingly narcissistic and two siblings

1308
01:04:38,400 --> 01:04:41,120
Speaker 3: who are the sweetest people you've ever met. Right, So, clearly,

1309
01:04:41,160 --> 01:04:44,160
Speaker 3: even though similar family, something different happened, and that could

1310
01:04:44,200 --> 01:04:46,640
Speaker 3: have to do with what happens in school, could happen

1311
01:04:47,080 --> 01:04:48,680
Speaker 3: have to do with even what's happening in the world

1312
01:04:48,720 --> 01:04:50,960
Speaker 3: at large. Children in the same family who grew up

1313
01:04:50,960 --> 01:04:53,080
Speaker 3: more with social media versus not that could have made

1314
01:04:53,080 --> 01:04:56,520
Speaker 3: a difference too. It involves parents, It involves teachers, It

1315
01:04:56,560 --> 01:05:00,280
Speaker 3: involves those temperaments we were talking about in all of that. So,

1316
01:05:00,520 --> 01:05:03,000
Speaker 3: and I always say, narcissism is a story that can

1317
01:05:03,040 --> 01:05:06,720
Speaker 3: be told backwards, but not forwards. So you can give

1318
01:05:06,720 --> 01:05:08,480
Speaker 3: me a thirty five year old narcissist and we can

1319
01:05:08,480 --> 01:05:10,800
Speaker 3: go back into their history and start saying, yep, see

1320
01:05:10,840 --> 01:05:15,640
Speaker 3: that this happened in the family, this temperament, this experience, this,

1321
01:05:15,640 --> 01:05:19,040
Speaker 3: this that, overvalued for being the best soccer player, over

1322
01:05:19,200 --> 01:05:22,040
Speaker 3: valued for being very attractive, whatever it is. Right, we

1323
01:05:22,080 --> 01:05:25,400
Speaker 3: can tell it backwards, but you show me, for example,

1324
01:05:25,480 --> 01:05:30,280
Speaker 3: a really really, really difficult adolescent, I mean, compared to

1325
01:05:30,280 --> 01:05:32,120
Speaker 3: a nice adolescent, I could take the bet that they

1326
01:05:32,200 --> 01:05:35,480
Speaker 3: might become narcissistic. But I look at some really sweet

1327
01:05:35,520 --> 01:05:37,720
Speaker 3: thirty forty fifty year olds to say, I was like

1328
01:05:38,040 --> 01:05:41,240
Speaker 3: pistol and adolescence, and they're like, I've put my parents

1329
01:05:41,240 --> 01:05:44,040
Speaker 3: through so much and they're lovely, wonderful people. So that's

1330
01:05:44,040 --> 01:05:46,360
Speaker 3: why I'm saying it can't we can't tell it forward. Now,

1331
01:05:46,600 --> 01:05:49,160
Speaker 3: what do we do with children? I actually think there's

1332
01:05:49,200 --> 01:05:52,040
Speaker 3: a lot we can do. We are getting dangerously more

1333
01:05:52,080 --> 01:05:55,480
Speaker 3: and more into spaces where we validate children for what

1334
01:05:55,560 --> 01:06:00,120
Speaker 3: they do, what they can become, how they perform. We

1335
01:06:00,200 --> 01:06:02,960
Speaker 3: view our children very performatively. Are you going to go

1336
01:06:03,000 --> 01:06:04,919
Speaker 3: to Harvard? Are you going to get on the soccer team?

1337
01:06:04,960 --> 01:06:07,760
Speaker 3: Are you going to get enough time playing? Are you cute?

1338
01:06:07,880 --> 01:06:09,800
Speaker 3: Are you doing? Are you going to be in the whatever,

1339
01:06:09,840 --> 01:06:14,040
Speaker 3: the nutcracker or whatever, the ballet? Productivity or productivity oriented Exactly.

1340
01:06:14,480 --> 01:06:17,920
Speaker 3: Our children aren't playing. They're on devices, so they're getting

1341
01:06:18,000 --> 01:06:21,600
Speaker 3: message to all the time. They are idolizing people on

1342
01:06:21,760 --> 01:06:24,919
Speaker 3: all kinds of platforms because and they're because they're getting views.

1343
01:06:24,960 --> 01:06:26,360
Speaker 3: I want to be that, I want to have a

1344
01:06:26,480 --> 01:06:30,000
Speaker 3: one hundred million followers or so celebrity has become. We

1345
01:06:30,080 --> 01:06:33,000
Speaker 3: used to want to be firefighters and doctors. Now kids

1346
01:06:33,040 --> 01:06:35,680
Speaker 3: want to be the Yeah they can be anyway exactly,

1347
01:06:35,720 --> 01:06:38,800
Speaker 3: and they're used as punds to their mom's Instagram, So

1348
01:06:38,880 --> 01:06:41,120
Speaker 3: thank you for bringing that up. Is that exactly? They're

1349
01:06:41,160 --> 01:06:43,520
Speaker 3: they're also learning, like I don't know how many of

1350
01:06:43,560 --> 01:06:45,520
Speaker 3: you have met those precocious kids who are off and

1351
01:06:45,560 --> 01:06:48,520
Speaker 3: splattered all over Instagram and they're like hi, and they're

1352
01:06:48,600 --> 01:06:52,600
Speaker 3: very and you're like, oh god, no, they're talking about right,

1353
01:06:53,080 --> 01:06:56,040
Speaker 3: and so you know, we are we need to focus

1354
01:06:56,040 --> 01:06:59,000
Speaker 3: on the whole child. We have to have school procedures

1355
01:06:59,000 --> 01:07:02,840
Speaker 3: and school policy that recognize that children learn in different ways.

1356
01:07:03,000 --> 01:07:05,840
Speaker 3: We do know that narcissism. There's a risk for narcissism,

1357
01:07:05,840 --> 01:07:08,840
Speaker 3: and kids who often get othered in school systems, for example,

1358
01:07:08,880 --> 01:07:11,520
Speaker 3: maybe they're just not really they're not great students, they

1359
01:07:11,520 --> 01:07:13,400
Speaker 3: don't love to read, they struggle with writing. They may

1360
01:07:13,400 --> 01:07:16,120
Speaker 3: even have disabilities in those areas that are not diagnosed

1361
01:07:16,160 --> 01:07:18,880
Speaker 3: at a low level. Those kids often school is a

1362
01:07:18,960 --> 01:07:22,000
Speaker 3: very shaming, humiliating place for them, and so we've got

1363
01:07:22,080 --> 01:07:24,480
Speaker 3: to recognize how to meet all kids where they're at

1364
01:07:24,720 --> 01:07:27,320
Speaker 3: with how they learn, and not make it so tests

1365
01:07:27,360 --> 01:07:31,280
Speaker 3: and standards, SATs and who's going again, who's going to Harvard.

1366
01:07:31,680 --> 01:07:36,040
Speaker 3: That stuff plays into narcissism because the more externally focused

1367
01:07:36,040 --> 01:07:39,120
Speaker 3: a person becomes, the greater the risk of narcissism versus

1368
01:07:39,320 --> 01:07:41,880
Speaker 3: you're a great kid. We need to make empathy a

1369
01:07:42,040 --> 01:07:44,480
Speaker 3: core focus of how we talk with kids. You read

1370
01:07:44,520 --> 01:07:46,520
Speaker 3: a book with your child, When you close the book,

1371
01:07:46,560 --> 01:07:49,360
Speaker 3: don't say okay, good night, or go look at your phone.

1372
01:07:49,440 --> 01:07:52,600
Speaker 3: Say how do you think the bear felt? And the

1373
01:07:52,720 --> 01:07:55,280
Speaker 3: child will say, I think the bear was sad. Tell

1374
01:07:55,280 --> 01:07:57,560
Speaker 3: me about have them talk about if a little kid,

1375
01:07:57,560 --> 01:07:59,800
Speaker 3: it could be the little animals in a story. Let's

1376
01:07:59,800 --> 01:08:02,160
Speaker 3: say you watch an impactful movie with your thirteen year old.

1377
01:08:02,160 --> 01:08:05,240
Speaker 3: When the movie's done, don't just run off, say how

1378
01:08:05,240 --> 01:08:06,600
Speaker 3: do you think that felt? Or how do you think?

1379
01:08:06,600 --> 01:08:10,080
Speaker 3: They talk in terms of emotion, and that's particularly pronounced

1380
01:08:10,120 --> 01:08:12,520
Speaker 3: with boys and men preach.

1381
01:08:13,720 --> 01:08:13,760
Speaker 2: That.

1382
01:08:14,920 --> 01:08:17,680
Speaker 3: What we do is we shame men for emotion. We

1383
01:08:17,800 --> 01:08:21,479
Speaker 3: shame men for vulnerability, We shame boys for that. We

1384
01:08:21,520 --> 01:08:25,120
Speaker 3: tell boys don't cry, and we might give more permission

1385
01:08:25,160 --> 01:08:27,840
Speaker 3: to a girl to express emotion in that way. This

1386
01:08:27,920 --> 01:08:29,840
Speaker 3: is something we could do at a societal level. But

1387
01:08:29,880 --> 01:08:33,160
Speaker 3: the I mean, listen, the nightmare this world has become

1388
01:08:33,640 --> 01:08:37,280
Speaker 3: is very much reflecting that fear of emotional vulnerability, all

1389
01:08:37,320 --> 01:08:39,720
Speaker 3: of that internalized shame. All of that is why the

1390
01:08:39,760 --> 01:08:42,200
Speaker 3: world is the mess it is in right now. So

1391
01:08:42,600 --> 01:08:46,280
Speaker 3: those things matter. We can do this differently with children,

1392
01:08:46,439 --> 01:08:49,240
Speaker 3: but it's hard. It's just one parent, especially if you're

1393
01:08:49,280 --> 01:08:52,040
Speaker 3: parenting with a narcissist. My heart aches for parents. We're

1394
01:08:52,080 --> 01:08:54,360
Speaker 3: doing everything they can, but a lot of what they're

1395
01:08:54,360 --> 01:08:57,479
Speaker 3: doing is being undone by a narcissistic co parent. And

1396
01:08:57,600 --> 01:08:59,960
Speaker 3: the school systems are what they are. I mean, who's

1397
01:09:00,000 --> 01:09:01,400
Speaker 3: going to go in there and change it? If anything,

1398
01:09:01,400 --> 01:09:04,639
Speaker 3: it's more measurements and standards and who's going to fancy

1399
01:09:04,640 --> 01:09:08,920
Speaker 3: schmancy school, you know, And the world's become an expensive place. Yeah,

1400
01:09:09,040 --> 01:09:11,200
Speaker 3: you know, Millennials and the generation before them are saying,

1401
01:09:11,200 --> 01:09:12,840
Speaker 3: we can't afford a house, We can't afford to parent

1402
01:09:12,880 --> 01:09:15,320
Speaker 3: our lives our parents had. It makes money into a

1403
01:09:15,400 --> 01:09:18,680
Speaker 3: very funny space. Young people, for that are deciding and

1404
01:09:18,760 --> 01:09:21,959
Speaker 3: droves not to have their own children. Like the world changed,

1405
01:09:22,080 --> 01:09:25,760
Speaker 3: and we've got to stop measuring people by link of

1406
01:09:25,760 --> 01:09:28,599
Speaker 3: all the real estate shows, Look how nice their house is,

1407
01:09:28,640 --> 01:09:31,200
Speaker 3: Like it's never like, show me how solid the person is.

1408
01:09:31,240 --> 01:09:35,439
Speaker 3: There isn't that show right now? That doesn't exist on HGTV.

1409
01:09:35,080 --> 01:09:38,920
Speaker 1: Right And well, actually it it does now because there's

1410
01:09:38,960 --> 01:09:43,120
Speaker 1: this new game show about like social justice causes, but

1411
01:09:43,200 --> 01:09:47,040
Speaker 1: the like a competition show rather, but the goal is

1412
01:09:47,080 --> 01:09:49,559
Speaker 1: to get the most amount of followers for yours so

1413
01:09:49,640 --> 01:09:51,120
Speaker 1: for your cause, so that you can get it funded.

1414
01:09:51,160 --> 01:09:53,559
Speaker 1: I'm like, you, guys, this is not This is exactly

1415
01:09:53,640 --> 01:09:54,360
Speaker 1: the opposite of.

1416
01:09:54,320 --> 01:09:56,960
Speaker 3: The boy and then it's that communal narcissism. I'm going

1417
01:09:57,000 --> 01:09:59,679
Speaker 3: to support this cause because I want validation for being

1418
01:09:59,680 --> 01:10:02,800
Speaker 3: such a good person about supporting this It's really hard

1419
01:10:02,840 --> 01:10:06,519
Speaker 3: to make a reality show about empathy. Right, Oh my god,

1420
01:10:06,640 --> 01:10:06,920
Speaker 3: I know.

1421
01:10:07,240 --> 01:10:10,800
Speaker 1: I mean, I fortunately don't. I'm surely I have tendencies.

1422
01:10:10,840 --> 01:10:14,679
Speaker 1: I don't think I'm a narcissist, but I certainly suffer

1423
01:10:14,720 --> 01:10:19,680
Speaker 1: from perfectionism and severe anxiety because of this, like this

1424
01:10:20,240 --> 01:10:22,920
Speaker 1: thing I've been convinced of since childhood, that my value

1425
01:10:22,920 --> 01:10:25,040
Speaker 1: comes from what I produce and what I create and

1426
01:10:25,120 --> 01:10:26,040
Speaker 1: like what I accomplish.

1427
01:10:26,200 --> 01:10:28,120
Speaker 3: Most kids are raised that way, and I think it

1428
01:10:28,160 --> 01:10:31,360
Speaker 3: does and that it's interesting. Perfectionism is one place we

1429
01:10:31,400 --> 01:10:34,639
Speaker 3: meet in the middle with the narcissistic folks. Narcissistic folks

1430
01:10:34,640 --> 01:10:38,120
Speaker 3: are perfectionistic because it allows them to uphold their grandiose

1431
01:10:38,439 --> 01:10:42,000
Speaker 3: sense of like, look, I'm perfect. Everyone else is perfectionistic

1432
01:10:42,000 --> 01:10:45,360
Speaker 3: because they're anxious. So this we have this huge problem

1433
01:10:45,479 --> 01:10:48,320
Speaker 3: of like can't and now it's all being documented in

1434
01:10:48,800 --> 01:10:52,320
Speaker 3: minute detail, where people are having pretend perfect lives and

1435
01:10:52,400 --> 01:10:54,559
Speaker 3: leaving everyone else feeling like they're not measuring up. I mean,

1436
01:10:54,600 --> 01:10:57,080
Speaker 3: this is this is I'm gonna say, shit storm. Yeah,

1437
01:10:57,080 --> 01:10:58,800
Speaker 3: and this is all going to get a lot worse

1438
01:10:58,880 --> 01:11:00,599
Speaker 3: before it never gets better. It's going to get better

1439
01:11:00,680 --> 01:11:01,320
Speaker 3: in my lifetime.

1440
01:11:01,439 --> 01:11:03,760
Speaker 1: Oh bleak ah.

1441
01:11:04,520 --> 01:11:06,479
Speaker 3: I'm a lot older than you, you know, I mean,

1442
01:11:06,520 --> 01:11:08,519
Speaker 3: I'm recognizing this story is going to end, and I don't.

1443
01:11:08,520 --> 01:11:10,000
Speaker 3: I mean so, which is why for me that the

1444
01:11:10,040 --> 01:11:12,800
Speaker 3: commitment of my work is I want people to stop

1445
01:11:12,800 --> 01:11:16,400
Speaker 3: blaming themselves. One of the trauma survivorship is about really

1446
01:11:16,439 --> 01:11:19,240
Speaker 3: lifting that blame and shame. Right, I'm convinced people can

1447
01:11:19,280 --> 01:11:22,080
Speaker 3: grow in the wake of these relationships. I've worked actually

1448
01:11:22,160 --> 01:11:24,519
Speaker 3: quite a bit with cult survivors in my practice, more

1449
01:11:24,520 --> 01:11:26,800
Speaker 3: than you'd actually think, because it's not a specialty of mine.

1450
01:11:26,800 --> 01:11:28,920
Speaker 3: But I think it's the la of it all. And

1451
01:11:29,920 --> 01:11:32,439
Speaker 3: we see that there's a betrayal trauma that comes out

1452
01:11:32,439 --> 01:11:34,679
Speaker 3: of having been in a cult, right, But then there's

1453
01:11:34,720 --> 01:11:38,360
Speaker 3: a sense of absolute shame and self blame when people

1454
01:11:38,360 --> 01:11:41,800
Speaker 3: come out, and it's heartbreaking to witness because there it's

1455
01:11:41,840 --> 01:11:44,439
Speaker 3: a lot of the work then really becomes as framing

1456
01:11:44,439 --> 01:11:48,080
Speaker 3: that cult leader as a really abusive narcissistic parent, and

1457
01:11:48,120 --> 01:11:51,839
Speaker 3: that framing really actually helps cult survivors quite a bit. Wow.

1458
01:11:51,840 --> 01:11:56,680
Speaker 1: Interesting. Yeah, So, in conclusion, if you have ended up

1459
01:11:57,360 --> 01:11:59,600
Speaker 1: in a situation with a narcissist, which so many of

1460
01:11:59,680 --> 01:12:04,120
Speaker 1: us have, it's not your fault, but try to extricate yourself. Right.

1461
01:12:04,520 --> 01:12:04,720
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1462
01:12:04,920 --> 01:12:06,600
Speaker 3: But here's the thing, and I want to say this

1463
01:12:06,640 --> 01:12:09,120
Speaker 3: because I always wanted to be respectful of everyone's lives,

1464
01:12:09,200 --> 01:12:12,080
Speaker 3: is that not everyone can extricate. Sometimes people are stuck

1465
01:12:12,120 --> 01:12:16,400
Speaker 3: in marriages for reasons of finances. Children. Our family court

1466
01:12:16,439 --> 01:12:19,280
Speaker 3: systems are messy, and so people are saying, I don't

1467
01:12:19,280 --> 01:12:21,080
Speaker 3: want my kids to be fifty percent of the time

1468
01:12:21,160 --> 01:12:26,479
Speaker 3: with that person without my supervision. So it's children, it's

1469
01:12:26,560 --> 01:12:30,200
Speaker 3: like I said, it's money. Sometimes it's religion. Sometimes it's culture,

1470
01:12:30,479 --> 01:12:32,839
Speaker 3: the idea that if they get a divorced they'll lose everyone,

1471
01:12:32,960 --> 01:12:36,439
Speaker 3: or and a relationship they'll lose everyone. Sometimes it's still love.

1472
01:12:36,880 --> 01:12:39,439
Speaker 3: People say I know, I know, I'm the loser. I

1473
01:12:39,479 --> 01:12:41,840
Speaker 3: actually it's heartbreaking. I recently had a client say, I

1474
01:12:41,920 --> 01:12:44,160
Speaker 3: know you're gonna hate me because a person had gotten

1475
01:12:44,680 --> 01:12:48,120
Speaker 3: you know, hoovered back in. I said, hate you, I

1476
01:12:48,200 --> 01:12:50,960
Speaker 3: adore you even more because you could be vulnerable. Right,

1477
01:12:50,960 --> 01:12:53,200
Speaker 3: But that idea of like I've failed you, I said,

1478
01:12:53,320 --> 01:12:55,719
Speaker 3: you're human. We all get sucked back, and I've gotten

1479
01:12:55,760 --> 01:12:58,599
Speaker 3: sucked backed, and everyone I know in this world gets

1480
01:12:58,640 --> 01:13:04,240
Speaker 3: sucked back in. And so I think that it's that

1481
01:13:03,920 --> 01:13:07,680
Speaker 3: that general idea that it is a you know, we're

1482
01:13:07,720 --> 01:13:10,479
Speaker 3: all vulnerable, but we can we can come out the

1483
01:13:10,520 --> 01:13:13,360
Speaker 3: other side of this too, And it's to end that

1484
01:13:13,439 --> 01:13:16,640
Speaker 3: cycle of people believing that there's something wrong with me.

1485
01:13:17,360 --> 01:13:18,760
Speaker 3: You know, no one else is getting played in that.

1486
01:13:19,000 --> 01:13:20,720
Speaker 3: But I would say fifty percent of people stay in

1487
01:13:20,760 --> 01:13:23,519
Speaker 3: these relationships, So it's a coin flip. I would say

1488
01:13:23,560 --> 01:13:25,600
Speaker 3: half the people I've worked with have left, half have

1489
01:13:25,760 --> 01:13:29,240
Speaker 3: not left. For the ones who don't leave, the realistic

1490
01:13:29,280 --> 01:13:32,360
Speaker 3: expectations and something I call radical acceptance and other people

1491
01:13:32,400 --> 01:13:34,800
Speaker 3: call radical acceptances I didn't coin. The phrase is that

1492
01:13:35,800 --> 01:13:37,880
Speaker 3: is it not going to change? It's not going to change.

1493
01:13:38,160 --> 01:13:40,200
Speaker 3: And so once you know that, it doesn't feel good

1494
01:13:40,200 --> 01:13:42,439
Speaker 3: and there's a lot of grief. Radical acceptance is followed

1495
01:13:42,439 --> 01:13:44,600
Speaker 3: by a period of grief because your whole life is

1496
01:13:44,640 --> 01:13:46,800
Speaker 3: based on hope. So now you have to abandon that

1497
01:13:46,840 --> 01:13:48,479
Speaker 3: hope and you have to go to this place of

1498
01:13:48,560 --> 01:13:52,719
Speaker 3: letting go. That's really painful. But then some people say, listen,

1499
01:13:53,120 --> 01:13:54,960
Speaker 3: it's not how I wanted it to be. I would

1500
01:13:54,960 --> 01:13:57,759
Speaker 3: have loved to have had a loving relationship. Maybe maybe

1501
01:13:57,800 --> 01:14:00,320
Speaker 3: this personal pass and I'll get in another shot at it,

1502
01:14:00,360 --> 01:14:05,280
Speaker 3: but they'll cultivate friendships. They'll cultivate in other spirits sometimes

1503
01:14:05,320 --> 01:14:10,520
Speaker 3: the spiritual interest, hobbies, their careers, their children, they'll volunteer.

1504
01:14:11,120 --> 01:14:12,600
Speaker 3: You know, I think that there's the heartbreak of like,

1505
01:14:12,680 --> 01:14:15,439
Speaker 3: I don't get my love story, and sometimes people don't right.

1506
01:14:15,680 --> 01:14:19,679
Speaker 1: Oh, but it totally makes sense. I mean, there are

1507
01:14:19,800 --> 01:14:21,559
Speaker 1: a million reasons why. I think you put it very.

1508
01:14:21,439 --> 01:14:24,000
Speaker 3: Well, and it's to not judge people. So many people

1509
01:14:24,080 --> 01:14:26,400
Speaker 3: judge the people who stay. I'm really here to say

1510
01:14:26,560 --> 01:14:29,240
Speaker 3: we cannot judge people for staying. Staying in a relationship

1511
01:14:29,320 --> 01:14:32,639
Speaker 3: is a very complicated decision, and you know there's I've

1512
01:14:32,640 --> 01:14:34,679
Speaker 3: had clients stay and the like I still had hope.

1513
01:14:34,680 --> 01:14:37,479
Speaker 3: I said my job, I'm the hope killer. I am,

1514
01:14:39,240 --> 01:14:43,240
Speaker 3: but I am the killer. And so I will say

1515
01:14:43,280 --> 01:14:46,120
Speaker 3: that you stick with me and then and they'll say, yeah,

1516
01:14:46,680 --> 01:14:50,080
Speaker 3: it's interesting. The domestic violence domestic abuse literature shows us

1517
01:14:50,200 --> 01:14:53,240
Speaker 3: that on average, people return to those relationships seven times.

1518
01:14:53,640 --> 01:14:55,559
Speaker 3: Narcissistic relationships are no different.

1519
01:14:55,760 --> 01:14:57,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

1520
01:14:57,439 --> 01:14:59,439
Speaker 3: Seven times. You know what happens. We you know, and

1521
01:14:59,680 --> 01:15:01,559
Speaker 3: sometimes people need to see more and more of it.

1522
01:15:01,600 --> 01:15:04,080
Speaker 3: They need more data. And instead of shaming that or

1523
01:15:04,080 --> 01:15:07,000
Speaker 3: saying what are you stupid? We often blame people for staying.

1524
01:15:07,320 --> 01:15:09,760
Speaker 3: It's a lot more complicated that we blame people for

1525
01:15:09,800 --> 01:15:13,120
Speaker 3: getting in. No, it makes sense like if somebody was

1526
01:15:13,160 --> 01:15:15,839
Speaker 3: like saying, hey, here's all the things you ever wanted

1527
01:15:15,840 --> 01:15:18,000
Speaker 3: and dreamed of, how many people bring me in? No,

1528
01:15:18,200 --> 01:15:21,080
Speaker 3: you know, it's a very normal want and we have

1529
01:15:21,160 --> 01:15:24,040
Speaker 3: our backstories. So I think that it's to end the

1530
01:15:24,120 --> 01:15:27,400
Speaker 3: cycle of blame and shame for the survivors is really

1531
01:15:27,479 --> 01:15:30,639
Speaker 3: really important because I think then that helps people seek

1532
01:15:30,680 --> 01:15:32,960
Speaker 3: out the help they need, because when people get hoovered

1533
01:15:33,040 --> 01:15:35,400
Speaker 3: back in, they think I can't tell anyone this. It's

1534
01:15:35,400 --> 01:15:37,360
Speaker 3: almost like they're having an affair, a secret affair, but

1535
01:15:37,439 --> 01:15:40,320
Speaker 3: it's really a relationship because if anyone knows, I'm back

1536
01:15:40,320 --> 01:15:43,080
Speaker 3: in this. Yeah, and that's also part of the trauma bonding,

1537
01:15:43,160 --> 01:15:45,160
Speaker 3: getting into a relationship that feels it needs to be

1538
01:15:45,160 --> 01:15:45,679
Speaker 3: a secret.

1539
01:15:45,920 --> 01:15:50,759
Speaker 1: Yes, Oh, that isolation is very, very damaging. I also

1540
01:15:50,840 --> 01:15:53,920
Speaker 1: just want to say that given how common it is

1541
01:15:53,920 --> 01:15:56,760
Speaker 1: for people to end up in just like regular interpersonal

1542
01:15:56,800 --> 01:16:00,880
Speaker 1: relationships with narcissists, the experience to feeling like you're coming

1543
01:16:00,880 --> 01:16:02,360
Speaker 1: out of a cult. You've come out of a cult

1544
01:16:02,400 --> 01:16:06,920
Speaker 1: and feel very alone. You just are so not alone

1545
01:16:07,280 --> 01:16:11,760
Speaker 1: in so many ways that you probably can't imagine because everybody,

1546
01:16:11,800 --> 01:16:13,519
Speaker 1: there's so many people we know who are ending up

1547
01:16:13,560 --> 01:16:15,280
Speaker 1: with these same exact dynamics. They just look a little

1548
01:16:15,280 --> 01:16:17,559
Speaker 1: bit different because it's a small it's one person, you know,

1549
01:16:17,720 --> 01:16:20,320
Speaker 1: versus like a self help cult or whatever.

1550
01:16:20,400 --> 01:16:23,519
Speaker 3: But same thing, correct, But the survivors of cults. You

1551
01:16:23,560 --> 01:16:25,760
Speaker 3: saw this in the vow right and then they and

1552
01:16:25,840 --> 01:16:30,280
Speaker 3: the documentary about Nexium. There was so much shame. Yeah,

1553
01:16:30,400 --> 01:16:32,720
Speaker 3: you know, there was so much self blame. There was

1554
01:16:32,880 --> 01:16:35,320
Speaker 3: I want, I'm going to look foolish. I've heard this.

1555
01:16:35,520 --> 01:16:38,240
Speaker 3: People leaving all kinds of organizations. Am I allowed to

1556
01:16:38,240 --> 01:16:41,120
Speaker 3: say Scientology? I'm always terrified? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah please.

1557
01:16:41,200 --> 01:16:45,280
Speaker 3: But you know the organizations ranging from Scientology to things

1558
01:16:45,320 --> 01:16:48,400
Speaker 3: like Nexium to this, all kinds. I mean, there's these

1559
01:16:48,479 --> 01:16:51,280
Speaker 3: yoga cults out there are all sorts of places where

1560
01:16:51,640 --> 01:16:54,479
Speaker 3: people then are embarrassed. It's funny. I was watching a

1561
01:16:54,520 --> 01:16:57,400
Speaker 3: show recently about an multi level marketing company that had

1562
01:16:57,439 --> 01:17:00,160
Speaker 3: a very cult like vibe to it, and the thing

1563
01:17:00,200 --> 01:17:01,680
Speaker 3: that struck me about a lot of the people talking

1564
01:17:01,720 --> 01:17:04,360
Speaker 3: about is how much shame They're like, I'm so foolish,

1565
01:17:04,360 --> 01:17:06,719
Speaker 3: and my heart aches when there's not a foolish bone

1566
01:17:07,000 --> 01:17:09,439
Speaker 3: in your body. I mean, it is just you're human.

1567
01:17:10,000 --> 01:17:11,719
Speaker 3: And and that's the thing is that when a person

1568
01:17:11,800 --> 01:17:14,479
Speaker 3: leaves a cult, they're just a human. They're not there's

1569
01:17:14,520 --> 01:17:18,400
Speaker 3: nothing foolish about it. And that's how people this this

1570
01:17:18,520 --> 01:17:21,800
Speaker 3: sort of cone of silence around these narcissistic relationships and

1571
01:17:21,840 --> 01:17:25,679
Speaker 3: the enablers who allow these systems to remain is why

1572
01:17:25,720 --> 01:17:26,880
Speaker 3: this is going to keep happening.

1573
01:17:27,120 --> 01:17:32,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, man, man, you are just you did not disappoint.

1574
01:17:32,240 --> 01:17:36,120
Speaker 3: Oh well, thank you, yeah, thank you. We could go

1575
01:17:36,160 --> 01:17:39,559
Speaker 3: on to narcissism. It's it's huge and it's amazing. I'm

1576
01:17:39,560 --> 01:17:42,400
Speaker 3: always amazed when I hear anything and see anything about

1577
01:17:42,400 --> 01:17:45,240
Speaker 3: cults that they don't talk about narcissism. I'm like, how

1578
01:17:45,280 --> 01:17:48,720
Speaker 3: are you leaving? You know, because this is it? Like

1579
01:17:48,840 --> 01:17:51,559
Speaker 3: if you understand it here, because I I sort of am.

1580
01:17:51,960 --> 01:17:55,920
Speaker 3: I really closely follow cult stories because there's such pristine

1581
01:17:55,960 --> 01:17:59,840
Speaker 3: examples of narcissism, every single one, like I've never heard

1582
01:17:59,880 --> 01:18:03,720
Speaker 3: of not narcissistic cult like it doesn't exist because of

1583
01:18:03,760 --> 01:18:07,360
Speaker 3: what the system is about, right, It's about taking away

1584
01:18:07,400 --> 01:18:10,960
Speaker 3: the identity of the membership so that they can't fight back.

1585
01:18:11,000 --> 01:18:12,360
Speaker 3: That's a narcissistic relationship.

1586
01:18:12,400 --> 01:18:15,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like the conversation is usually centered around

1587
01:18:15,120 --> 01:18:17,519
Speaker 1: psychopathy and narcissism can get lost.

1588
01:18:17,720 --> 01:18:20,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, No, I think that it's you know, psychopathy is

1589
01:18:20,120 --> 01:18:22,000
Speaker 3: such an extrame. I think then the bigger cults and

1590
01:18:22,040 --> 01:18:26,400
Speaker 3: the famous cults, it's psychopathy. But there's a lot of

1591
01:18:26,479 --> 01:18:29,000
Speaker 3: small cult like organizations out there. You know this far

1592
01:18:29,080 --> 01:18:31,840
Speaker 3: better than I do. Things that barely have names, things

1593
01:18:31,880 --> 01:18:34,840
Speaker 3: that operate in small geographic spaces. Do you know what

1594
01:18:34,880 --> 01:18:38,080
Speaker 3: I'm saying? Like they're much more loosely organized, But there's

1595
01:18:38,080 --> 01:18:42,800
Speaker 3: still cults. People giving up money, people changing their names, levels,

1596
01:18:42,840 --> 01:18:45,200
Speaker 3: all the things we see in cults exist in these small,

1597
01:18:45,240 --> 01:18:47,320
Speaker 3: loosely organized groups. That's where you tend to see a

1598
01:18:47,320 --> 01:18:49,880
Speaker 3: bit more of the malignant narcissism. You kind of with

1599
01:18:49,960 --> 01:18:53,439
Speaker 3: the psychopaths go big on the cults, The malignant narcissist

1600
01:18:53,479 --> 01:18:54,320
Speaker 3: have to run smaller.

1601
01:18:54,320 --> 01:19:01,120
Speaker 1: Fish Man, Where can people find you online?

1602
01:19:01,479 --> 01:19:03,280
Speaker 3: So you can find me at my website which is

1603
01:19:03,320 --> 01:19:06,080
Speaker 3: doctor Romney dot com the word doctor spelled out D

1604
01:19:06,160 --> 01:19:08,439
Speaker 3: O C, T O, R R A M A and

1605
01:19:08,600 --> 01:19:11,000
Speaker 3: I dot com. Please come to my YouTube channel. We

1606
01:19:11,080 --> 01:19:14,519
Speaker 3: post new videos every day. It's it's a library of

1607
01:19:15,000 --> 01:19:17,439
Speaker 3: six hundred and fifty videos and growing all the time.

1608
01:19:17,479 --> 01:19:18,760
Speaker 3: So if there's anything you want to you know, and

1609
01:19:18,760 --> 01:19:21,680
Speaker 3: we always tell people, you know, we're always welcoming suggestions,

1610
01:19:21,720 --> 01:19:23,920
Speaker 3: and then carefully research the issue to see if this would,

1611
01:19:23,920 --> 01:19:26,599
Speaker 3: you know, create something that we can share with folks.

1612
01:19:26,880 --> 01:19:30,000
Speaker 3: And I also do regular seminars to do deeper dives

1613
01:19:30,000 --> 01:19:32,200
Speaker 3: on topics. You can find that information not only at

1614
01:19:32,200 --> 01:19:35,200
Speaker 3: my website but also on my Instagram. All that stuff

1615
01:19:35,280 --> 01:19:37,880
Speaker 3: is posted there. And then I have some books on narcissism.

1616
01:19:37,960 --> 01:19:40,200
Speaker 3: So anything you want to know, I got your back

1617
01:19:40,240 --> 01:19:42,280
Speaker 3: on that one. And so yeah, I do hope that

1618
01:19:42,520 --> 01:19:46,120
Speaker 3: people can find some help in those resources at a minimum,

1619
01:19:46,160 --> 01:19:48,320
Speaker 3: so they can stop blaming themselves.

1620
01:19:48,800 --> 01:19:53,160
Speaker 1: Amen, she's got content, folks. Thank you so much, Thank.

1621
01:19:53,160 --> 01:19:55,200
Speaker 3: Joining you, thank you so much for having me.

1622
01:19:55,680 --> 01:19:59,519
Speaker 1: Oh yay, okay, Megant. I just do you notice that

1623
01:20:00,120 --> 01:20:02,240
Speaker 1: between her and I? Right, I don't know, she and

1624
01:20:02,240 --> 01:20:03,760
Speaker 1: I made it like a lot of eye contracts. No,

1625
01:20:03,920 --> 01:20:07,600
Speaker 1: I mean like literally we were almost holding hands. She

1626
01:20:07,800 --> 01:20:12,360
Speaker 1: was a pretty deep stare that was going on. I

1627
01:20:12,400 --> 01:20:13,519
Speaker 1: feel like her and I are going to go on

1628
01:20:13,600 --> 01:20:14,240
Speaker 1: vacation together.

1629
01:20:14,320 --> 01:20:15,599
Speaker 3: I'm not sure. I'll tell you.

1630
01:20:15,680 --> 01:20:17,120
Speaker 1: I do want to just hang out with her. She's

1631
01:20:17,200 --> 01:20:20,400
Speaker 1: very nice, just like a very nice person. Yeah, anyway,

1632
01:20:21,080 --> 01:20:23,080
Speaker 1: I already know your answer. You spoiled it this week,

1633
01:20:23,120 --> 01:20:25,880
Speaker 1: just like I spoiled it last week. What my answer was. Yeah,

1634
01:20:25,920 --> 01:20:29,960
Speaker 1: So now let's play a song. Well, the song what

1635
01:20:30,240 --> 01:20:32,840
Speaker 1: I joined the cult of doctor Romeny.

1636
01:20:32,680 --> 01:20:35,960
Speaker 3: Is obvious, what you're supposed to you would write.

1637
01:20:36,960 --> 01:20:40,880
Speaker 1: Great question. Yeah, No, I love her. I think she's

1638
01:20:41,000 --> 01:20:43,880
Speaker 1: very smart, has lots of really good information. But I'm

1639
01:20:44,120 --> 01:20:48,160
Speaker 1: what interests me about psychology is the variety of sources,

1640
01:20:48,439 --> 01:20:53,120
Speaker 1: the different studies from multiple researchers, you know, the breadth

1641
01:20:53,120 --> 01:20:57,600
Speaker 1: of information available out there, the constantly learning. So you know,

1642
01:20:58,000 --> 01:20:59,840
Speaker 1: I don't think I would join a cult of just one.

1643
01:21:00,120 --> 01:21:03,479
Speaker 2: Well, she'd like your answer better than mine, and so.

1644
01:21:02,800 --> 01:21:07,040
Speaker 1: So I went to high like I said, really strong

1645
01:21:07,080 --> 01:21:12,400
Speaker 1: eye contact. Okay, well, yeah, go listen to me a song.

1646
01:21:12,439 --> 01:21:12,639
Speaker 4: Guys.

1647
01:21:12,640 --> 01:21:14,479
Speaker 1: It's called Here Come the Wolves. There is a new

1648
01:21:14,560 --> 01:21:16,960
Speaker 1: music video out. Uh there's blood in it.

1649
01:21:17,200 --> 01:21:17,840
Speaker 3: I directed it.

1650
01:21:18,160 --> 01:21:21,679
Speaker 1: I did choreography for the first time. Oh my god, Okay,

1651
01:21:21,840 --> 01:21:24,559
Speaker 1: are excited? Yes, all right, here we go.

1652
01:21:25,680 --> 01:21:30,920
Speaker 4: It was rained in dark and stormy. Nobody was around

1653
01:21:31,040 --> 01:21:37,280
Speaker 4: to warn me. One the chill fish one, I must spine.

1654
01:21:41,560 --> 01:21:44,360
Speaker 3: Swallowed back a great big bede.

1655
01:21:45,640 --> 01:21:48,360
Speaker 1: Come my way outside him then night.

1656
01:21:49,600 --> 01:21:58,559
Speaker 4: She's the woman taught me how by here come the wolves,

1657
01:21:59,560 --> 01:22:05,639
Speaker 4: comment Getchen bront of the woods. I'm not alecgical, I'm

1658
01:22:05,760 --> 01:22:06,040
Speaker 4: very my.

1659
01:22:06,160 --> 01:22:07,200
Speaker 3: Teeth, I'm ready.

1660
01:22:07,439 --> 01:22:10,080
Speaker 4: My tongue is sharp and shady. So why do we

1661
01:22:10,160 --> 01:22:11,200
Speaker 4: feel unsteady?

1662
01:22:11,640 --> 01:22:14,840
Speaker 5: You can run?

1663
01:22:14,960 --> 01:22:21,240
Speaker 1: Little lands ni Hi not who I am? My combo wolf.

1664
01:22:24,160 --> 01:22:24,559
Speaker 4: Sama?

1665
01:22:24,600 --> 01:22:41,240
Speaker 5: Woof My fishing has been destroying a feelm a DNA transforming.

1666
01:22:41,720 --> 01:22:50,040
Speaker 4: Every time I go out in the night. When you

1667
01:22:50,160 --> 01:22:56,280
Speaker 4: think you won't shar creator, a victim can be perpetrator.

1668
01:22:57,640 --> 01:23:00,160
Speaker 5: Does the name of justice jess?

1669
01:23:00,160 --> 01:23:06,160
Speaker 4: So fine, if you come.

1670
01:23:06,040 --> 01:23:10,640
Speaker 3: My wolves coming to get you, run through the woods.

1671
01:23:11,439 --> 01:23:15,160
Speaker 4: We're not gonna let you go. I'm burying my teeth already.

1672
01:23:15,400 --> 01:23:17,160
Speaker 3: My song is a sharp machete.

1673
01:23:17,360 --> 01:23:19,440
Speaker 4: So why do I feel unsteady?

1674
01:23:19,680 --> 01:23:21,240
Speaker 1: You can run?

1675
01:23:21,680 --> 01:23:24,240
Speaker 3: Why you run? Little lamb man?

1676
01:23:24,600 --> 01:23:24,880
Speaker 5: Sigh?

1677
01:23:26,640 --> 01:23:29,280
Speaker 1: Now who I am? I'm a wolf man?

1678
01:23:31,880 --> 01:23:37,080
Speaker 5: Guess I'm my love? So you're running?

1679
01:23:37,720 --> 01:23:39,839
Speaker 3: Run out for some line.

1680
01:23:41,600 --> 01:23:44,439
Speaker 5: This is a bush came to shop, so I'm my

1681
01:23:44,760 --> 01:23:45,120
Speaker 5: lf No

1682
01:23:48,160 --> 01:23:48,400
Speaker 4: Sign