1 00:00:15,436 --> 00:00:24,276 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Welcome to the final episode in our Listener Questions 2 00:00:24,316 --> 00:00:27,196 Speaker 1: special edition of The Happiness Lab. I have to say 3 00:00:27,236 --> 00:00:30,556 Speaker 1: I've been so humbled creating all these special episodes. We've 4 00:00:30,556 --> 00:00:33,676 Speaker 1: gotten so many amazing new questions about the science of happiness. 5 00:00:34,116 --> 00:00:36,596 Speaker 1: But even more importantly, the season has been a great 6 00:00:36,596 --> 00:00:38,836 Speaker 1: way for me to meet listeners from around the world. 7 00:00:39,476 --> 00:00:41,756 Speaker 1: But while I expected to meet lots of new fans 8 00:00:41,756 --> 00:00:44,756 Speaker 1: of the podcast, what I didn't expect was for one 9 00:00:44,796 --> 00:00:47,676 Speaker 1: of the listener Questions, we got to reconnect me with 10 00:00:47,716 --> 00:00:50,196 Speaker 1: a longtime friend who I hadn't had a chance to 11 00:00:50,236 --> 00:00:52,276 Speaker 1: see in a while. But I think I met you 12 00:00:52,316 --> 00:00:56,476 Speaker 1: like freshman. Yea. We worked together and a psychology lab, 13 00:00:56,556 --> 00:00:59,716 Speaker 1: and I was already impressed by how amazing you were 14 00:00:59,756 --> 00:01:03,276 Speaker 1: in terms of your dedication and passion for psychology and 15 00:01:03,516 --> 00:01:06,276 Speaker 1: a little bit in denial that we're celebrating our twenty 16 00:01:06,356 --> 00:01:10,996 Speaker 1: fifth reunion. This is doctor Commander. Amy and I were 17 00:01:11,036 --> 00:01:14,556 Speaker 1: friends as nerdy first years in college. Back then, Amy 18 00:01:14,556 --> 00:01:17,036 Speaker 1: assumed she was on the path to becoming a neuroscientist, 19 00:01:17,356 --> 00:01:19,916 Speaker 1: but during medical school she made the pivot to studying 20 00:01:19,996 --> 00:01:23,556 Speaker 1: breast cancer. Now she's the medical director at mass General 21 00:01:23,596 --> 00:01:26,956 Speaker 1: Cancer Center, and the director of the breast Oncology program 22 00:01:27,156 --> 00:01:30,596 Speaker 1: at Newton Wellesley Hospital. Well, you should know, Laurie, that 23 00:01:30,636 --> 00:01:33,476 Speaker 1: I tell all of my patients about the Happiness Laud 24 00:01:33,516 --> 00:01:36,876 Speaker 1: podcast because I feel like the lessons you teach in 25 00:01:36,916 --> 00:01:39,676 Speaker 1: this podcast are important for all of us, but in 26 00:01:39,716 --> 00:01:43,756 Speaker 1: particular for cancer survivors. As you can understand, a diagnosis 27 00:01:43,756 --> 00:01:47,596 Speaker 1: of cancer is life changing and very scary, and the 28 00:01:47,676 --> 00:01:50,956 Speaker 1: evidence based strategies you share in this podcast have really 29 00:01:50,996 --> 00:01:53,596 Speaker 1: helped so many people. So if any of my patients 30 00:01:53,636 --> 00:01:56,116 Speaker 1: are listening, trust me, they've learned about it from me. 31 00:01:57,196 --> 00:02:00,556 Speaker 1: That's awesome. Amy still maintains a deep interest in psychology 32 00:02:00,916 --> 00:02:03,396 Speaker 1: and the commitment to helping her patients promote their mental 33 00:02:03,436 --> 00:02:06,396 Speaker 1: health in addition to their physical health. Last year, she 34 00:02:06,476 --> 00:02:09,396 Speaker 1: and her colleagues completed a new book called the Leaving 35 00:02:09,396 --> 00:02:12,196 Speaker 1: the Path to Wellness Workbook. It's an easy to follow 36 00:02:12,316 --> 00:02:15,276 Speaker 1: resource for cancer survivors or anyone who wants to improve 37 00:02:15,316 --> 00:02:18,436 Speaker 1: their overall health and well being. As you might imagine, 38 00:02:18,516 --> 00:02:21,156 Speaker 1: the question she sent in via Twitter was really good. 39 00:02:21,596 --> 00:02:24,316 Speaker 1: I'm wondering if you wouldn't mind reading it for us 40 00:02:24,556 --> 00:02:27,516 Speaker 1: and pulling it up right now. I think it would 41 00:02:27,516 --> 00:02:30,356 Speaker 1: be really interesting to focus on the lessons we've learned 42 00:02:30,396 --> 00:02:33,196 Speaker 1: from the pandemic and what these lessons have taught us 43 00:02:33,236 --> 00:02:36,796 Speaker 1: about our happiness as we try to return to normalcy. 44 00:02:37,076 --> 00:02:38,916 Speaker 1: I think it is important for each of us to 45 00:02:38,956 --> 00:02:42,156 Speaker 1: reflect on these past two years, given the challenges we 46 00:02:42,196 --> 00:02:45,076 Speaker 1: have all faced. What lessons have we learned about what 47 00:02:45,276 --> 00:02:48,076 Speaker 1: really matters? And as we move forward, can we hold 48 00:02:48,116 --> 00:02:51,756 Speaker 1: onto these important lessons and improve our own happiness? I 49 00:02:51,836 --> 00:02:54,716 Speaker 1: love this question so much. What lessons have we really 50 00:02:54,796 --> 00:02:58,116 Speaker 1: learned about what matters when it comes to our relationships, 51 00:02:58,196 --> 00:03:02,596 Speaker 1: our jobs, and our overall health and happiness. In this episode, 52 00:03:02,636 --> 00:03:05,036 Speaker 1: I want to take each of these post pandemic topics 53 00:03:05,036 --> 00:03:08,756 Speaker 1: in turn, starting with our relationships. But since Amy's a 54 00:03:08,796 --> 00:03:10,956 Speaker 1: huge of the show, I thought it'd be fun for 55 00:03:10,956 --> 00:03:13,516 Speaker 1: her to turn the tables and for me to be 56 00:03:13,556 --> 00:03:16,276 Speaker 1: the one interviewed for a change, and so, welcome to 57 00:03:16,276 --> 00:03:19,796 Speaker 1: the Happiness lab Our first ever special guest host, Doctor 58 00:03:19,876 --> 00:03:23,636 Speaker 1: Amy Commander, who'll be asking me about post pandemic challenges 59 00:03:24,036 --> 00:03:27,116 Speaker 1: In the latest and final installment of our Happiness Lab 60 00:03:27,236 --> 00:03:35,716 Speaker 1: Listener Questions Special Edition? Are you ready to I'm so exciting? Well, 61 00:03:35,836 --> 00:03:38,036 Speaker 1: I will let you take it away, maybe asking a 62 00:03:38,116 --> 00:03:42,116 Speaker 1: first question about social connection. Well, I know that, you know, certainly, 63 00:03:42,276 --> 00:03:46,156 Speaker 1: we really learned over these past two years important lessons 64 00:03:46,156 --> 00:03:48,836 Speaker 1: that we've kind of taken many of our social connections 65 00:03:48,836 --> 00:03:51,516 Speaker 1: for granted. I hate to say that we've missed so 66 00:03:51,516 --> 00:03:57,476 Speaker 1: many important rituals over the past two years, such as graduations, weddings, funerals, unfortunately, 67 00:03:57,516 --> 00:04:00,076 Speaker 1: and I'm just curious, how do you reconcile that and 68 00:04:00,156 --> 00:04:01,476 Speaker 1: what do you think is the best way for us 69 00:04:01,516 --> 00:04:04,956 Speaker 1: to move forward given all these things that we've missed. Yeah, well, 70 00:04:04,956 --> 00:04:06,676 Speaker 1: I think the first thing is like to take a 71 00:04:06,756 --> 00:04:09,436 Speaker 1: real lesson from it. The pandemic has really taught us 72 00:04:09,436 --> 00:04:13,036 Speaker 1: the importance of social connections, right and just how critical 73 00:04:13,076 --> 00:04:15,596 Speaker 1: this is. We have so much evidence that feeling like 74 00:04:15,636 --> 00:04:18,556 Speaker 1: you're connected with other people, feeling like you belong, feeling 75 00:04:18,836 --> 00:04:21,596 Speaker 1: not lonely, and feeling really close to the people around 76 00:04:21,636 --> 00:04:23,996 Speaker 1: you can be huge for people's well being. I mean, 77 00:04:24,116 --> 00:04:26,876 Speaker 1: one super famous study by Marty Sellingman and his colleagues 78 00:04:26,916 --> 00:04:29,676 Speaker 1: showed that very happy people tend to also be very 79 00:04:29,796 --> 00:04:32,036 Speaker 1: very social. If you look at what separates very happy 80 00:04:32,036 --> 00:04:34,396 Speaker 1: people from there not so happy people, those happy people 81 00:04:34,516 --> 00:04:37,316 Speaker 1: tend to spend time with other humans like at all, 82 00:04:37,356 --> 00:04:39,676 Speaker 1: like they're just around other people. But in addition, they 83 00:04:39,716 --> 00:04:42,636 Speaker 1: also tend to be prioritizing time with their friends and 84 00:04:42,756 --> 00:04:45,236 Speaker 1: family members. Right. So this is something that positive psychology 85 00:04:45,236 --> 00:04:47,396 Speaker 1: has known for a very long time, but I think 86 00:04:47,436 --> 00:04:50,716 Speaker 1: the pandemic really put it in stark relief definitely. I 87 00:04:50,756 --> 00:04:53,436 Speaker 1: mean it's so many levels. Doctors and nurses and health 88 00:04:53,556 --> 00:04:56,516 Speaker 1: or healthcare workers. Our schedules changed and you know, we 89 00:04:56,516 --> 00:04:58,916 Speaker 1: weren't interacting as much. And I'm going to give you 90 00:04:58,956 --> 00:05:01,076 Speaker 1: a fun example of a way we did find a 91 00:05:01,076 --> 00:05:04,796 Speaker 1: way to maintain some connection during this time. You know, 92 00:05:04,956 --> 00:05:10,076 Speaker 1: New England winters very well, and especially January, which is 93 00:05:10,116 --> 00:05:13,476 Speaker 1: a really tough time in New England. So one way 94 00:05:13,676 --> 00:05:16,236 Speaker 1: we found a way to connect and recharge in the 95 00:05:16,316 --> 00:05:19,756 Speaker 1: month of January. I'm in a group of women on 96 00:05:19,916 --> 00:05:23,636 Speaker 1: colleges and we did something called the Winter Warrior Challenge. 97 00:05:24,196 --> 00:05:27,596 Speaker 1: Every day for the month of January, no matter how 98 00:05:27,636 --> 00:05:30,476 Speaker 1: cold it was, no matter how much snow was coming down, 99 00:05:30,516 --> 00:05:34,356 Speaker 1: whatever conditions, we had to get outside and do one mile. 100 00:05:34,716 --> 00:05:36,476 Speaker 1: You know, you didn't have to run, you could walk it, 101 00:05:36,596 --> 00:05:39,036 Speaker 1: you could snowshoe it, you could cross this country ski 102 00:05:39,196 --> 00:05:41,276 Speaker 1: And then we had a WhatsApp group and we all 103 00:05:41,276 --> 00:05:44,116 Speaker 1: shared pictures and assure that we are all accountable to 104 00:05:44,156 --> 00:05:47,076 Speaker 1: each other, and even though we were not together in person, 105 00:05:47,476 --> 00:05:49,636 Speaker 1: it really was a fun way to bond and it 106 00:05:49,716 --> 00:05:53,596 Speaker 1: actually lifted everyone's spirits during that very challenging time at 107 00:05:53,596 --> 00:05:56,636 Speaker 1: that winter at January twenty twenty one. I love this, 108 00:05:56,676 --> 00:05:58,636 Speaker 1: of course, because this is building up all the other 109 00:05:58,916 --> 00:06:01,396 Speaker 1: happiness happens. So you've heard on the happiness lab, right, 110 00:06:01,396 --> 00:06:04,956 Speaker 1: like getting some exercise, in getting some behavioral commitments from 111 00:06:04,956 --> 00:06:06,556 Speaker 1: the other people around you, like you feel like a 112 00:06:06,676 --> 00:06:08,556 Speaker 1: Doric if you're the one person that doesn't show up 113 00:06:08,596 --> 00:06:11,036 Speaker 1: for the warrior your challenge, but just enforcing that kind 114 00:06:11,076 --> 00:06:13,756 Speaker 1: of social connection, right because I think again, probably those 115 00:06:13,756 --> 00:06:15,756 Speaker 1: are people that you saw at work all the time 116 00:06:15,876 --> 00:06:18,596 Speaker 1: that just because of this strange thing that was COVID, 117 00:06:18,636 --> 00:06:20,796 Speaker 1: we wind up not being at the same place as 118 00:06:20,956 --> 00:06:22,676 Speaker 1: we wind up not kind of connecting with because you're 119 00:06:22,676 --> 00:06:24,716 Speaker 1: not physically in the same location. And I think we 120 00:06:24,796 --> 00:06:28,356 Speaker 1: haven't really fully understood the problems that come with remote 121 00:06:28,356 --> 00:06:30,476 Speaker 1: working and the kinds of things that we're losing. So 122 00:06:30,556 --> 00:06:32,516 Speaker 1: I love the idea of building in this new ritual 123 00:06:32,516 --> 00:06:35,356 Speaker 1: that includes exercise and so on and also just like Beau, 124 00:06:35,396 --> 00:06:37,476 Speaker 1: since I know my listeners don't know you like, Amy 125 00:06:37,556 --> 00:06:40,716 Speaker 1: is super badass. She runs the Boston Marathon like every 126 00:06:40,756 --> 00:06:43,516 Speaker 1: single year and so like to be in a warrior 127 00:06:43,556 --> 00:06:46,436 Speaker 1: group with hers, I've been particularly motivating because she's so 128 00:06:46,556 --> 00:06:48,996 Speaker 1: like hardcore of her fitness and things. Ah well, it 129 00:06:49,116 --> 00:06:50,836 Speaker 1: was a lot of fun and it really brought our 130 00:06:50,876 --> 00:06:55,316 Speaker 1: groups together, and especially in January in New England, which 131 00:06:55,636 --> 00:06:58,476 Speaker 1: is a tough time no matter what pandemic or no pandemic. 132 00:07:00,436 --> 00:07:02,316 Speaker 1: So that was I think, you know, the social connection 133 00:07:02,356 --> 00:07:04,396 Speaker 1: that we get from people at work that we're like 134 00:07:04,476 --> 00:07:07,316 Speaker 1: missing out on, but I think it's also worth taking 135 00:07:07,316 --> 00:07:10,076 Speaker 1: a moment post pandemic to wrecking eyes the connections that 136 00:07:10,116 --> 00:07:13,396 Speaker 1: we got additionally during the pandemic or the things that 137 00:07:13,436 --> 00:07:16,276 Speaker 1: we saw socially extra. So I'm thinking of like, you know, 138 00:07:16,316 --> 00:07:18,436 Speaker 1: in the middle of March of twenty twenty, even though 139 00:07:18,476 --> 00:07:20,756 Speaker 1: my students had taken off and it felt a little 140 00:07:20,796 --> 00:07:22,876 Speaker 1: bit more lonely than usual on campus, I was like 141 00:07:22,916 --> 00:07:24,996 Speaker 1: around my husband a lot more like we were kind 142 00:07:24,996 --> 00:07:26,716 Speaker 1: of trapped together. And I know at the start of 143 00:07:26,756 --> 00:07:28,916 Speaker 1: the pandemic, Amy, I think your kids were home with you, right, 144 00:07:29,036 --> 00:07:31,396 Speaker 1: like you have two kids, and so I think that 145 00:07:31,516 --> 00:07:33,396 Speaker 1: you know, as parents and his families, I think we 146 00:07:33,476 --> 00:07:35,996 Speaker 1: had a lot more close time, or at least many 147 00:07:36,036 --> 00:07:37,996 Speaker 1: of us who have close family members and spouses had 148 00:07:37,996 --> 00:07:40,636 Speaker 1: a lot more close time than usual. And I think 149 00:07:40,676 --> 00:07:43,436 Speaker 1: for a lot of people like that was good, Like 150 00:07:43,556 --> 00:07:46,436 Speaker 1: that was like better than people expected to just have 151 00:07:46,476 --> 00:07:49,356 Speaker 1: a little bit more unstructured time with the people you 152 00:07:49,436 --> 00:07:51,236 Speaker 1: care about. And I think you know that was like 153 00:07:51,396 --> 00:07:53,076 Speaker 1: you know, March of twenty twenty, or the thick of 154 00:07:53,076 --> 00:07:56,076 Speaker 1: the pandemic before vaccines and so on. But we might 155 00:07:56,156 --> 00:07:59,116 Speaker 1: be starting already to take for granted how good that was, right, Like, 156 00:07:59,156 --> 00:08:01,516 Speaker 1: I know, I'm my travel schedules like picking up again 157 00:08:01,516 --> 00:08:03,396 Speaker 1: and I'm starting to take off more. It's like, wait, 158 00:08:03,436 --> 00:08:05,996 Speaker 1: how can I build back that structured time with Mark, 159 00:08:06,076 --> 00:08:08,236 Speaker 1: my husband where we just like hung out, or how 160 00:08:08,276 --> 00:08:10,236 Speaker 1: can you build back that family times so you don't 161 00:08:10,276 --> 00:08:12,476 Speaker 1: kind of lose that? Is that something you've thought about 162 00:08:12,516 --> 00:08:15,516 Speaker 1: with your kids a little bit? Absolutely, You're so right. 163 00:08:15,836 --> 00:08:18,756 Speaker 1: It was definitely weird to be home, you know, a 164 00:08:18,756 --> 00:08:21,076 Speaker 1: few days. I'm a doctor. I never worked from home, 165 00:08:21,076 --> 00:08:24,876 Speaker 1: but there were some opportunities to see patients using telemedicine, 166 00:08:24,916 --> 00:08:28,636 Speaker 1: which actually was a really great innovation that really took 167 00:08:28,716 --> 00:08:31,516 Speaker 1: off during the pandemic. But yeah, it was nice to 168 00:08:31,596 --> 00:08:35,036 Speaker 1: kind of see my kids upstairs doing virtual school or 169 00:08:35,076 --> 00:08:37,596 Speaker 1: not doing virtual school, and being with my husband a 170 00:08:37,636 --> 00:08:39,716 Speaker 1: little bit more during the day. So there were some 171 00:08:40,036 --> 00:08:41,956 Speaker 1: you know, if we want to use the term silver linings, 172 00:08:41,996 --> 00:08:44,556 Speaker 1: that was nice to have some quality time at home 173 00:08:44,596 --> 00:08:47,476 Speaker 1: with the family. Although my husband I do share an 174 00:08:47,516 --> 00:08:50,716 Speaker 1: office in our house and we learned early on, probably 175 00:08:50,716 --> 00:08:53,796 Speaker 1: that second week of March, that you cannot have two 176 00:08:54,196 --> 00:08:58,076 Speaker 1: simultaneous Zoom meetings going on in the same room. Yeah, 177 00:08:58,076 --> 00:09:00,996 Speaker 1: I mean, I think the thing I really want people 178 00:09:01,036 --> 00:09:03,356 Speaker 1: to take away from the pandemic in terms of social 179 00:09:03,396 --> 00:09:06,236 Speaker 1: connection is just to like remember what we lost and 180 00:09:06,316 --> 00:09:08,956 Speaker 1: find kind of creative ways to bring it back in. 181 00:09:09,236 --> 00:09:11,956 Speaker 1: I think, especially for people who is still working remotely, right, 182 00:09:11,996 --> 00:09:15,636 Speaker 1: we know that there's a lot being lost the subtle 183 00:09:15,756 --> 00:09:18,196 Speaker 1: like office cool or conversation, these kinds of things, And 184 00:09:18,236 --> 00:09:20,596 Speaker 1: so what can you do to build up other kinds 185 00:09:20,636 --> 00:09:22,636 Speaker 1: of social connection at work? Maybe they need the WhatsApp 186 00:09:22,716 --> 00:09:25,516 Speaker 1: Warrior challenge like you did. We're all welcome to joint 187 00:09:27,276 --> 00:09:29,436 Speaker 1: You guys are too hardcore I'm gonna have to like, like, well, 188 00:09:29,436 --> 00:09:31,076 Speaker 1: it's only one mile a day. I feel like that's 189 00:09:31,116 --> 00:09:33,196 Speaker 1: also nice to set it so that it's really low. 190 00:09:33,276 --> 00:09:35,676 Speaker 1: But but yeah, I mean, then think finding other creative 191 00:09:35,676 --> 00:09:38,556 Speaker 1: ways to bring these kinds of things in, or finding 192 00:09:38,596 --> 00:09:41,356 Speaker 1: ways to reconnect with friends and family members, whether it's 193 00:09:41,356 --> 00:09:43,396 Speaker 1: over zoom, whether it's on the phone. I think as 194 00:09:43,436 --> 00:09:45,156 Speaker 1: we kind of go back to normal life, we can 195 00:09:45,156 --> 00:09:47,556 Speaker 1: forget the lessons we learned, and they're super important to 196 00:09:47,596 --> 00:09:49,596 Speaker 1: make sure we're building some of these kinds of things in. 197 00:09:49,916 --> 00:09:53,516 Speaker 1: I definitely agree with you. We received another interesting question 198 00:09:53,596 --> 00:09:57,796 Speaker 1: from Christina I from Twitter. Her question is, how can 199 00:09:57,876 --> 00:10:01,236 Speaker 1: you feel a little bit more normal these days? For me, 200 00:10:01,596 --> 00:10:05,196 Speaker 1: I still find an overwhelming sense of anxiety by doing 201 00:10:05,276 --> 00:10:09,596 Speaker 1: any small activities that involved being with people, are making contact. 202 00:10:09,996 --> 00:10:12,716 Speaker 1: I never used to be like that pre pandemic. It 203 00:10:12,756 --> 00:10:16,676 Speaker 1: feels very strange, like I'm starting over every day, just 204 00:10:16,796 --> 00:10:20,276 Speaker 1: trying to get back to regular life things. What do 205 00:10:20,276 --> 00:10:22,796 Speaker 1: you think about that, Laurie, Well, I think like Christina 206 00:10:22,916 --> 00:10:25,476 Speaker 1: in my brain because I feel like I feel this 207 00:10:26,556 --> 00:10:28,356 Speaker 1: a lot of the time too. I mean, we just 208 00:10:28,716 --> 00:10:30,756 Speaker 1: you and I are having this conversation and we just 209 00:10:30,956 --> 00:10:34,196 Speaker 1: finished doing a big graduation at Yale where I got 210 00:10:34,196 --> 00:10:36,516 Speaker 1: to see all my students who left in twenty twenty 211 00:10:36,556 --> 00:10:39,796 Speaker 1: again and that was really fun. But I just remember 212 00:10:39,836 --> 00:10:43,316 Speaker 1: just being so exhausted afterwards, right, And you know, graduations 213 00:10:43,316 --> 00:10:45,156 Speaker 1: are kind of exhausting anyway, but I think what was 214 00:10:45,196 --> 00:10:48,756 Speaker 1: particularly exhausting is like I just hadn't seen that many people. 215 00:10:48,876 --> 00:10:51,036 Speaker 1: I hadn't had to have that many conversations. I hadn't 216 00:10:51,316 --> 00:10:53,996 Speaker 1: didn't have that chance to interact in that way before, 217 00:10:54,516 --> 00:10:57,596 Speaker 1: and so yeah, I kind of get it, Like, especially 218 00:10:57,636 --> 00:11:01,836 Speaker 1: social activities can feel like really exhausting lately and can 219 00:11:01,876 --> 00:11:03,756 Speaker 1: be kind of trickier. I don't know, are you getting 220 00:11:03,796 --> 00:11:05,316 Speaker 1: this back at work because you're back at work a 221 00:11:05,316 --> 00:11:08,516 Speaker 1: lot more in person? Yeah, I am, But I would 222 00:11:08,516 --> 00:11:12,276 Speaker 1: say I as well though, certainly in social interactions like 223 00:11:12,556 --> 00:11:16,196 Speaker 1: now you know, galas are happening again, parties are happening again. 224 00:11:16,316 --> 00:11:18,556 Speaker 1: You know, you're around a large group of people, and 225 00:11:18,756 --> 00:11:22,196 Speaker 1: you know, while certainly it's wonderful to be around friends 226 00:11:22,236 --> 00:11:24,916 Speaker 1: and see people and whether we have a mask on 227 00:11:24,996 --> 00:11:26,796 Speaker 1: or don't have a mask on, it's just wonderful to 228 00:11:26,836 --> 00:11:29,516 Speaker 1: be together. But you're right, I do find that it 229 00:11:29,556 --> 00:11:32,476 Speaker 1: does feel exhausting, like it is an adjustment. It's an 230 00:11:32,516 --> 00:11:36,836 Speaker 1: interesting thing. Maybe a psychologist should study that. I think 231 00:11:36,876 --> 00:11:39,356 Speaker 1: psychologists are I mean, I think one thing to remember is, like, 232 00:11:39,636 --> 00:11:41,636 Speaker 1: you know, it's easy for us to get out of 233 00:11:41,676 --> 00:11:44,436 Speaker 1: practice where social primates and our brains are built to 234 00:11:44,476 --> 00:11:47,876 Speaker 1: be social. We're naturally creatures that can process social information. 235 00:11:47,916 --> 00:11:50,676 Speaker 1: But it's also a lot of information, right It's processing 236 00:11:50,676 --> 00:11:53,596 Speaker 1: what people are saying and what their emotional expressions are doing, 237 00:11:53,676 --> 00:11:56,556 Speaker 1: and like tracking multiple conversations at once. And I think 238 00:11:56,556 --> 00:12:00,276 Speaker 1: it's worth remembering that that's a big computational task that 239 00:12:00,516 --> 00:12:02,476 Speaker 1: we get used to over time, but you can kind 240 00:12:02,476 --> 00:12:04,316 Speaker 1: of get out of practice at it. And I think 241 00:12:04,356 --> 00:12:06,996 Speaker 1: the general advice that I would give Christina and other 242 00:12:07,036 --> 00:12:08,836 Speaker 1: people who are going through this is just to have 243 00:12:08,916 --> 00:12:11,516 Speaker 1: a little bit of like self compassion. You know, we 244 00:12:11,556 --> 00:12:14,036 Speaker 1: talk a lot about self compassion on the podcast. It's 245 00:12:14,076 --> 00:12:17,756 Speaker 1: just this idea of being kind to yourself to recognize 246 00:12:17,796 --> 00:12:20,756 Speaker 1: your common humanity. Look, everybody is going through this. Everybody 247 00:12:20,796 --> 00:12:22,916 Speaker 1: just went through a goal pandemic. Nobody is feeling like 248 00:12:22,996 --> 00:12:25,636 Speaker 1: socially completely on top of their game. Right now, You're 249 00:12:25,676 --> 00:12:28,236 Speaker 1: not alone, and so you know, this is the kind 250 00:12:28,236 --> 00:12:30,276 Speaker 1: of thing that I try to do when I'm going 251 00:12:30,316 --> 00:12:32,476 Speaker 1: through this. I remember even at graduation, when I was 252 00:12:32,476 --> 00:12:35,316 Speaker 1: starting to feel a little overloaded, it was like, Okay, 253 00:12:35,356 --> 00:12:37,196 Speaker 1: what can I take off my plate? Can I take 254 00:12:37,236 --> 00:12:38,916 Speaker 1: a little bit of a break from this? You know? 255 00:12:38,956 --> 00:12:40,716 Speaker 1: Can I kind of step away for a second and 256 00:12:40,756 --> 00:12:43,396 Speaker 1: get my bearings and come back. But most importantly, not 257 00:12:43,476 --> 00:12:45,636 Speaker 1: to beat yourself up over it. I mean, I think 258 00:12:45,636 --> 00:12:48,116 Speaker 1: that's the sad but amazing thing is we just kind 259 00:12:48,116 --> 00:12:51,556 Speaker 1: of expect ourselves to bounce back with no cost from 260 00:12:51,636 --> 00:12:53,676 Speaker 1: having taken off like two and a half years to 261 00:12:53,676 --> 00:12:55,596 Speaker 1: take a break from this stuff. And that's just like 262 00:12:55,676 --> 00:12:58,036 Speaker 1: not how brains work. That's just not how minds work. 263 00:12:58,076 --> 00:13:00,436 Speaker 1: I think we just need to allow ourselves to go 264 00:13:00,516 --> 00:13:03,316 Speaker 1: a little slowly to give ourselves some grace. I mean, 265 00:13:03,356 --> 00:13:05,556 Speaker 1: I think whenever I'm at one of these big events 266 00:13:05,556 --> 00:13:07,676 Speaker 1: with lots of people, now, you know, I'm like low 267 00:13:07,716 --> 00:13:10,276 Speaker 1: grade looking for the door of like how to get away, 268 00:13:10,396 --> 00:13:12,796 Speaker 1: or like how did I like the socially distance? Right? 269 00:13:12,836 --> 00:13:15,916 Speaker 1: Like we've been primed to be vigilant and pay attention 270 00:13:15,916 --> 00:13:18,116 Speaker 1: to social interaction in a different way because you know, 271 00:13:18,156 --> 00:13:20,636 Speaker 1: for a while again before Max and so on, it 272 00:13:20,636 --> 00:13:22,716 Speaker 1: it was threatening, right, like, of course, our brain's just 273 00:13:22,716 --> 00:13:26,116 Speaker 1: not going to shut off immediately. So far, we've covered 274 00:13:26,156 --> 00:13:28,756 Speaker 1: what the science says about improving our relationships in a 275 00:13:28,796 --> 00:13:31,796 Speaker 1: post pandemic world. But when we get back from the break, 276 00:13:32,116 --> 00:13:34,236 Speaker 1: Amy will take me on a deep dive into the 277 00:13:34,276 --> 00:13:37,236 Speaker 1: second challenge she brought up in her Twitter question, how 278 00:13:37,276 --> 00:13:39,516 Speaker 1: we can deal with all the challenges that come with 279 00:13:39,596 --> 00:13:43,276 Speaker 1: returning back to work. We'll tackle some post pandemic suggestions 280 00:13:43,316 --> 00:13:45,596 Speaker 1: for improving our well being on the job when the 281 00:13:45,596 --> 00:14:00,396 Speaker 1: Happiness Lab returns in a moment, I can honestly tell 282 00:14:00,436 --> 00:14:04,556 Speaker 1: you that the past I guess it's now two years, 283 00:14:04,636 --> 00:14:08,116 Speaker 1: three months, it's been like a roller coaster for those 284 00:14:08,236 --> 00:14:11,996 Speaker 1: working in the health care field, and certainly we've really 285 00:14:11,996 --> 00:14:15,356 Speaker 1: come together to work and care for patients during this 286 00:14:15,716 --> 00:14:21,316 Speaker 1: extremely difficult time of the pandemic. But recent surveys really 287 00:14:21,356 --> 00:14:26,156 Speaker 1: looking at levels of burnout among healthcare workers. Those individuals 288 00:14:26,316 --> 00:14:28,836 Speaker 1: really have worked so hard over these past two and 289 00:14:28,836 --> 00:14:31,716 Speaker 1: a half years and face so many challenges. So it 290 00:14:31,756 --> 00:14:34,036 Speaker 1: has been a very difficult time, and this is the 291 00:14:34,116 --> 00:14:35,596 Speaker 1: kind of thing that I think people are trying to 292 00:14:35,636 --> 00:14:39,076 Speaker 1: address at the highest levels. I know your esteemed classmate 293 00:14:39,116 --> 00:14:41,716 Speaker 1: who's now the Surgeon General view ec Murthy has talked 294 00:14:41,756 --> 00:14:43,796 Speaker 1: a lot about this, right, Like, he just released another 295 00:14:43,996 --> 00:14:46,756 Speaker 1: big report about kind of burnout and healthcare, right, Yeah, 296 00:14:46,796 --> 00:14:49,116 Speaker 1: so it was really great to see his report. But 297 00:14:49,196 --> 00:14:53,076 Speaker 1: he really illustrates all the various layers that are contributing 298 00:14:53,116 --> 00:14:56,596 Speaker 1: to this significant problem and some of the strategies for 299 00:14:56,676 --> 00:14:58,796 Speaker 1: how we can address this and to sort of how 300 00:14:58,796 --> 00:15:01,196 Speaker 1: to think about these recommendations in the context of what 301 00:15:01,316 --> 00:15:02,676 Speaker 1: you know, so many people are going through. I think 302 00:15:02,716 --> 00:15:04,956 Speaker 1: this has been really acute in the context of healthcare. 303 00:15:04,996 --> 00:15:07,436 Speaker 1: Obviously burnout and stress and things, but you know, this 304 00:15:07,516 --> 00:15:09,236 Speaker 1: is the kind of thing that people are facing all 305 00:15:09,236 --> 00:15:10,836 Speaker 1: over the place. In fact, if I looked at the 306 00:15:10,916 --> 00:15:13,716 Speaker 1: number of questions we got about jobs and burnout and 307 00:15:13,796 --> 00:15:16,556 Speaker 1: stress and how to deal with that post pandemic, that 308 00:15:16,636 --> 00:15:18,836 Speaker 1: was the biggest set that we got. But in part 309 00:15:18,876 --> 00:15:21,356 Speaker 1: because you're here as a healthcare person, I wanted to 310 00:15:21,396 --> 00:15:23,956 Speaker 1: read one question in particular, or I actually I wanted 311 00:15:23,996 --> 00:15:27,156 Speaker 1: you to read one question for sure you're me today 312 00:15:27,436 --> 00:15:31,036 Speaker 1: by one listener that we had over Twitter, Maria Alejandro. Okay, 313 00:15:31,636 --> 00:15:34,636 Speaker 1: I feel like burnout was a very common experience over 314 00:15:34,676 --> 00:15:37,756 Speaker 1: these past two years. We experienced the fear of getting sick, 315 00:15:37,916 --> 00:15:41,236 Speaker 1: losing loved ones, losing our jobs, seeing others lose work, 316 00:15:41,316 --> 00:15:44,716 Speaker 1: managing our realities, etc. How do we nurture ourselves from 317 00:15:44,716 --> 00:15:48,116 Speaker 1: this burnout with strategies that are self honoring. It's an 318 00:15:48,116 --> 00:15:50,876 Speaker 1: awesome question and a hard question, I think. In fact, 319 00:15:50,996 --> 00:15:52,956 Speaker 1: you know, if I think to the questions that I've 320 00:15:52,996 --> 00:15:55,156 Speaker 1: gotten from listeners and the things that I've found most 321 00:15:55,156 --> 00:15:58,076 Speaker 1: hard during the pandemic, actually answering this question of how 322 00:15:58,116 --> 00:16:00,636 Speaker 1: to deal with burnout has been the hardest one, in 323 00:16:00,716 --> 00:16:04,716 Speaker 1: part just because, like scientifically, in terms of how burnout works, 324 00:16:04,876 --> 00:16:07,956 Speaker 1: you know, burnout has these like three important components. So 325 00:16:08,076 --> 00:16:10,036 Speaker 1: one of the components I think, I think we think 326 00:16:10,036 --> 00:16:12,436 Speaker 1: most often when we're dealing with burnout, which is exhaustion, 327 00:16:12,596 --> 00:16:16,276 Speaker 1: but not necessarily just a physical exhaustion, but an emotional exhaustion, 328 00:16:16,356 --> 00:16:18,636 Speaker 1: like you just like simply feel like you cannot handle 329 00:16:18,756 --> 00:16:20,996 Speaker 1: one more thing going on your plate, like everything just 330 00:16:21,036 --> 00:16:24,996 Speaker 1: feels overwhelming. That's kind of emotional exhaustion. The second part 331 00:16:25,116 --> 00:16:29,636 Speaker 1: is what's known as depersonalization, but it's mostly defined as cynicism. 332 00:16:29,676 --> 00:16:32,316 Speaker 1: You're just kind of annoyed at the people around you, 333 00:16:32,636 --> 00:16:34,276 Speaker 1: and I think this came up a lot in the 334 00:16:34,316 --> 00:16:37,196 Speaker 1: healthcare field, where you talk about people in healthcare and 335 00:16:37,276 --> 00:16:40,076 Speaker 1: nurses and doctors just being like annoyed with their patients 336 00:16:40,156 --> 00:16:42,316 Speaker 1: or just like angry that they have to answer even 337 00:16:42,356 --> 00:16:44,836 Speaker 1: simple questions with their patients. And this is the kind 338 00:16:44,876 --> 00:16:46,956 Speaker 1: of thing we saw in the educational field, with college 339 00:16:46,956 --> 00:16:50,436 Speaker 1: professors being just pissed when their students had completely reasonable 340 00:16:50,516 --> 00:16:52,796 Speaker 1: questions about what's going on or you know this grade 341 00:16:52,836 --> 00:16:55,076 Speaker 1: that they got on their exam or something like that. 342 00:16:55,076 --> 00:16:57,796 Speaker 1: That's cynicism when you're just like kind of want to 343 00:16:57,796 --> 00:17:01,876 Speaker 1: like flip off everybody that you work with basically, so 344 00:17:02,036 --> 00:17:03,956 Speaker 1: like not a great thing, but but in something we 345 00:17:03,996 --> 00:17:06,716 Speaker 1: forget about. Burnout, but it's burnout is really this inner 346 00:17:06,756 --> 00:17:09,756 Speaker 1: personal sort of problem too. And then the third part 347 00:17:09,756 --> 00:17:13,356 Speaker 1: of burnout is what's known as a sense of personal ineffectiveness, 348 00:17:13,356 --> 00:17:16,196 Speaker 1: like you just feel like you're not able to do 349 00:17:16,276 --> 00:17:18,196 Speaker 1: what you want to do in your job anymore. I 350 00:17:18,236 --> 00:17:20,796 Speaker 1: know I had this a lot working with college students, 351 00:17:20,836 --> 00:17:22,556 Speaker 1: you know, when they all got sent home and then 352 00:17:22,596 --> 00:17:24,796 Speaker 1: we brought them back to do zoom classes, and there 353 00:17:24,836 --> 00:17:27,716 Speaker 1: was this deep sense of like is this really even college? 354 00:17:27,716 --> 00:17:30,476 Speaker 1: Am I really even giving students what they want. Even 355 00:17:30,516 --> 00:17:33,356 Speaker 1: if you did your job perfectly, you wouldn't be meeting 356 00:17:33,356 --> 00:17:35,476 Speaker 1: the mission that you have in your brain about what 357 00:17:35,476 --> 00:17:39,996 Speaker 1: you're supposed to be doing. And those three things together suck. 358 00:17:40,116 --> 00:17:41,916 Speaker 1: There are there all these scales that you can take 359 00:17:41,956 --> 00:17:45,116 Speaker 1: to measure how bad burnout is, but ultimately the way 360 00:17:45,196 --> 00:17:47,756 Speaker 1: you solve them is sort of twofold one, is it. 361 00:17:47,836 --> 00:17:50,396 Speaker 1: All those things come with the whole host of negative emotions, 362 00:17:50,596 --> 00:17:52,516 Speaker 1: and those negative emotions are things that we've lots of 363 00:17:52,556 --> 00:17:56,476 Speaker 1: strategies to tackle, you know, to regulate them and kind 364 00:17:56,516 --> 00:17:59,396 Speaker 1: of allow those emotions or even do things like exercise 365 00:17:59,476 --> 00:18:01,996 Speaker 1: or healthy habits that allow you to get through those things. 366 00:18:02,596 --> 00:18:05,636 Speaker 1: But a lot of those those symptoms of burnout actually 367 00:18:05,676 --> 00:18:08,516 Speaker 1: come from organizational structure. You know, there might be features 368 00:18:08,556 --> 00:18:10,556 Speaker 1: of the healthcare system and how it works and the 369 00:18:10,596 --> 00:18:13,196 Speaker 1: structure of it then make people feel exhausted or that 370 00:18:13,276 --> 00:18:15,676 Speaker 1: make people feel like it's hard to be really effective 371 00:18:15,676 --> 00:18:18,076 Speaker 1: in what you're doing. I think there were definitely features 372 00:18:18,076 --> 00:18:21,316 Speaker 1: of the way educational systems worked during COVID and what 373 00:18:21,356 --> 00:18:23,716 Speaker 1: we were able to allow students to do that made 374 00:18:23,756 --> 00:18:27,036 Speaker 1: it frustrating to work with students that made it difficult 375 00:18:27,076 --> 00:18:29,236 Speaker 1: to feel like you are making a difference and doing 376 00:18:29,236 --> 00:18:31,316 Speaker 1: the job that you wanted. And so I think when 377 00:18:31,356 --> 00:18:33,876 Speaker 1: we're talking about burnout you on this podcast, that we 378 00:18:33,916 --> 00:18:35,636 Speaker 1: can get in this habit of just being like, oh, 379 00:18:35,676 --> 00:18:37,996 Speaker 1: here are the five strategies you use to get over it, 380 00:18:38,116 --> 00:18:39,636 Speaker 1: and I think we can walk through a bunch of 381 00:18:39,636 --> 00:18:42,156 Speaker 1: strategies we can use to deal with the negative emotions 382 00:18:42,196 --> 00:18:44,636 Speaker 1: that come from burnout and how you can feel less stressed. 383 00:18:44,916 --> 00:18:48,116 Speaker 1: But ultimately, I think it's important to recognize that burnout 384 00:18:48,236 --> 00:18:50,076 Speaker 1: is a little bit different. It really needs to get 385 00:18:50,116 --> 00:18:52,956 Speaker 1: solved structurally, you know. And it's one of the reasons, 386 00:18:53,036 --> 00:18:55,516 Speaker 1: you know, it's so exciting to think the Surgeon General 387 00:18:55,596 --> 00:18:57,676 Speaker 1: is really thinking about this in the healthcare field, right 388 00:18:57,716 --> 00:18:59,916 Speaker 1: because I think he'll be in a unique position to 389 00:18:59,956 --> 00:19:02,756 Speaker 1: think about, well, what are some structural changes the government 390 00:19:02,756 --> 00:19:04,796 Speaker 1: and others can be making to healthcare and how it 391 00:19:04,796 --> 00:19:07,156 Speaker 1: works to kind of make it work better. I agree, 392 00:19:07,796 --> 00:19:10,356 Speaker 1: And that's what's so great about his report. I mean, 393 00:19:10,396 --> 00:19:15,396 Speaker 1: he really lays out specific recommendations starting it societal cultural factors, 394 00:19:15,476 --> 00:19:18,916 Speaker 1: the healthcare system in general, organizational factors as you note, 395 00:19:19,076 --> 00:19:22,716 Speaker 1: and sort of the workplace environment. And you're absolutely right, 396 00:19:22,756 --> 00:19:24,996 Speaker 1: There's so many layers to this, and it's not just 397 00:19:25,116 --> 00:19:28,276 Speaker 1: one quick fix, you know. I think at the individual level, 398 00:19:28,356 --> 00:19:32,116 Speaker 1: we're grieving the fact that we feel ineffective. We're feeling frustrated, 399 00:19:32,356 --> 00:19:34,836 Speaker 1: you know, at the situation that we're facing, we're feeling 400 00:19:34,876 --> 00:19:37,516 Speaker 1: frustrated with the people we work with. And there I 401 00:19:37,556 --> 00:19:39,876 Speaker 1: think we have lots of actual strategies to deal with 402 00:19:39,916 --> 00:19:43,236 Speaker 1: those negative emotions. Right one is just this simple act 403 00:19:43,236 --> 00:19:48,036 Speaker 1: of remembering that those negative emotions are useful. They're good signposts, 404 00:19:48,116 --> 00:19:50,956 Speaker 1: They're good signals for how you should be making changes 405 00:19:50,956 --> 00:19:53,116 Speaker 1: in your life to feel better. Now. I think if 406 00:19:53,116 --> 00:19:55,476 Speaker 1: you're feeling some of those negative emotions, it means you 407 00:19:55,516 --> 00:19:57,876 Speaker 1: do need to start thinking about how you relate to 408 00:19:57,916 --> 00:19:59,796 Speaker 1: your work and how you form your identity. You know, 409 00:19:59,796 --> 00:20:01,476 Speaker 1: you might need to take a break, you know, This 410 00:20:01,516 --> 00:20:03,356 Speaker 1: is what I've decided to do next year, where I'm 411 00:20:03,356 --> 00:20:05,236 Speaker 1: taking a year off from my work at Yale, just 412 00:20:05,236 --> 00:20:07,196 Speaker 1: to kind of get a little bit of a distance 413 00:20:07,236 --> 00:20:09,116 Speaker 1: from what I was doing in terms of that stuff. 414 00:20:09,276 --> 00:20:10,876 Speaker 1: But I also think that we also have lots of 415 00:20:10,916 --> 00:20:13,796 Speaker 1: strategies to kind of navigate those negative emotions. And one 416 00:20:13,796 --> 00:20:15,196 Speaker 1: of the ones we talk about a lot on the 417 00:20:15,196 --> 00:20:18,996 Speaker 1: podcast is just use your physical body to regulate those 418 00:20:19,036 --> 00:20:22,436 Speaker 1: negative emotions. When doctors would ask me what's one tip 419 00:20:22,476 --> 00:20:24,196 Speaker 1: I can use to stop feeling so stressed in the 420 00:20:24,196 --> 00:20:26,316 Speaker 1: middle of the pandemic at work, I would always go 421 00:20:26,356 --> 00:20:29,316 Speaker 1: back to your breath. You know, we don't have many 422 00:20:29,356 --> 00:20:31,836 Speaker 1: ways to hack into our fight or flight system, but 423 00:20:31,956 --> 00:20:33,796 Speaker 1: one good way we do have to hack into that 424 00:20:33,836 --> 00:20:36,796 Speaker 1: system is through our breath. The simple act of taking 425 00:20:36,836 --> 00:20:40,156 Speaker 1: a couple of really deep belly breaths, especially through the bellies, 426 00:20:40,156 --> 00:20:42,436 Speaker 1: you're kind of activating your vagus nerve. You know, so 427 00:20:42,516 --> 00:20:45,436 Speaker 1: much evidence that you're really turning on your rest and 428 00:20:45,476 --> 00:20:48,196 Speaker 1: digest system. You're giving your body a little bit of 429 00:20:48,196 --> 00:20:51,236 Speaker 1: a like stress break, and as simple as it sounds, 430 00:20:51,236 --> 00:20:53,956 Speaker 1: it can be really effective. I'm one of the top 431 00:20:54,116 --> 00:20:57,476 Speaker 1: floors in the hospital at mass General. There's actually a 432 00:20:57,556 --> 00:21:00,436 Speaker 1: sign that I always stop by it when I see 433 00:21:00,476 --> 00:21:02,276 Speaker 1: it and just like think about it for a second. 434 00:21:02,396 --> 00:21:06,716 Speaker 1: It says, breathe, you are alive. That's all it says. 435 00:21:07,036 --> 00:21:09,716 Speaker 1: And I'll usually be in the middle of a very 436 00:21:09,756 --> 00:21:12,636 Speaker 1: busy day caring for very sick patients, and I try 437 00:21:12,676 --> 00:21:16,516 Speaker 1: to pause and ponder that and actually breathe. So I 438 00:21:16,596 --> 00:21:19,116 Speaker 1: love that you pointed that out. And it's so powerful. 439 00:21:19,156 --> 00:21:21,476 Speaker 1: I mean, just in case the listeners don't know the mechanism. 440 00:21:21,596 --> 00:21:26,116 Speaker 1: We have this sympathetic nervous system that normally pretty automatic, right, 441 00:21:26,156 --> 00:21:28,156 Speaker 1: Like it's there if a tiger jumps out at you 442 00:21:28,276 --> 00:21:30,636 Speaker 1: and you have to like switch, you know, from processing, 443 00:21:30,836 --> 00:21:33,276 Speaker 1: digesting your food or doing the stuff your body normally 444 00:21:33,316 --> 00:21:35,956 Speaker 1: does to like dealing with this. They're urgently and getting 445 00:21:35,996 --> 00:21:38,676 Speaker 1: out of there, and we don't have many ways to 446 00:21:38,716 --> 00:21:41,556 Speaker 1: hack into shutting that fight or flight system off. But 447 00:21:41,636 --> 00:21:44,116 Speaker 1: our breath really is one of those. Just the simple 448 00:21:44,156 --> 00:21:46,796 Speaker 1: act of taking a deep breath convinces your body like, oh, no, 449 00:21:46,916 --> 00:21:48,796 Speaker 1: horrible tiger jumping out of you. There can't be that 450 00:21:48,876 --> 00:21:51,956 Speaker 1: terrible of a threat if you're like really breathing deeply, right. 451 00:21:52,196 --> 00:21:54,236 Speaker 1: So it's a way to give your body like a 452 00:21:54,356 --> 00:21:57,516 Speaker 1: hack so that you can turn that chilling out system 453 00:21:57,556 --> 00:22:00,756 Speaker 1: back on. It can be so so powerful, and I 454 00:22:00,756 --> 00:22:03,356 Speaker 1: think in part because so many of these kinds of 455 00:22:03,396 --> 00:22:05,916 Speaker 1: struggles come up in the healthcare industry. We actually had 456 00:22:05,956 --> 00:22:08,996 Speaker 1: another question that came up from someone in the healthcare field. 457 00:22:09,316 --> 00:22:10,996 Speaker 1: If you want to share it, yes, So there's an 458 00:22:10,996 --> 00:22:15,596 Speaker 1: anonymous question. Can you talk about the potential impacts of 459 00:22:15,756 --> 00:22:20,116 Speaker 1: permanent remote work on mental health of workers. Many companies 460 00:22:20,156 --> 00:22:22,516 Speaker 1: are doing this to save money, and that is valid, 461 00:22:22,756 --> 00:22:26,596 Speaker 1: but curious, how is this going to affect relationships, collaboration, etc. 462 00:22:27,316 --> 00:22:29,476 Speaker 1: What will this do to the long term well being 463 00:22:29,556 --> 00:22:33,396 Speaker 1: of people who live alone if they work remotely? And definitely, yeah, 464 00:22:33,436 --> 00:22:36,756 Speaker 1: I think this is honestly a super big question that 465 00:22:36,836 --> 00:22:40,036 Speaker 1: we're only now starting to get good empirical research on, 466 00:22:40,116 --> 00:22:43,116 Speaker 1: like really specifically testing the mental health and well being 467 00:22:43,156 --> 00:22:46,076 Speaker 1: outcomes of remote work, because we haven't done it on 468 00:22:46,116 --> 00:22:47,956 Speaker 1: the type of scale that we're doing it now after 469 00:22:47,996 --> 00:22:51,076 Speaker 1: the pandemic. But I think there's real reasons to recognize 470 00:22:51,076 --> 00:22:54,076 Speaker 1: that this is a huge challenge for people. Social connection 471 00:22:54,156 --> 00:22:56,596 Speaker 1: is such an important piece of our happiness, and one 472 00:22:56,636 --> 00:22:59,236 Speaker 1: thing we know about social connection is we're often blind 473 00:22:59,396 --> 00:23:01,716 Speaker 1: to how important it is. You know, if you're having 474 00:23:01,716 --> 00:23:03,556 Speaker 1: a bad day, it can be easy to think, oh, 475 00:23:03,596 --> 00:23:05,636 Speaker 1: I just want to hang out solo and like watch 476 00:23:05,676 --> 00:23:09,556 Speaker 1: TV and not connect with somebody. But gradually, over time, 477 00:23:09,716 --> 00:23:12,196 Speaker 1: the more you're not interacting with other people, the more 478 00:23:12,236 --> 00:23:14,516 Speaker 1: you don't get that quick conversation with a stranger or 479 00:23:14,516 --> 00:23:17,116 Speaker 1: that short chat with a co worker at your desk. 480 00:23:17,436 --> 00:23:20,236 Speaker 1: Those things sort of add up over time. In one 481 00:23:20,236 --> 00:23:22,516 Speaker 1: of my favorite interviews on the podcast, I chatted with 482 00:23:22,556 --> 00:23:24,996 Speaker 1: my colleague Nick Epley, who's a professor at the University 483 00:23:24,996 --> 00:23:27,796 Speaker 1: of Chicago, and he had this really apt metaphor that 484 00:23:27,836 --> 00:23:29,956 Speaker 1: when you think about happiness, you should think about it 485 00:23:29,996 --> 00:23:31,996 Speaker 1: as the air and your tire, right. You know, if 486 00:23:32,036 --> 00:23:34,196 Speaker 1: you have like a leaky tire over time and the 487 00:23:34,196 --> 00:23:36,356 Speaker 1: air is going out, you need to add in, you know, 488 00:23:36,396 --> 00:23:39,636 Speaker 1: these little behaviors that can pump up your leaky happiness tire. 489 00:23:39,916 --> 00:23:41,956 Speaker 1: And one of the behaviors he talks about the most 490 00:23:42,076 --> 00:23:44,236 Speaker 1: is a quick chat, quick little bit of social connection 491 00:23:44,236 --> 00:23:46,116 Speaker 1: and so on. And when I think about my work 492 00:23:46,236 --> 00:23:48,756 Speaker 1: day when you're not doing remote work. Back in the 493 00:23:48,836 --> 00:23:51,276 Speaker 1: day pre COVID, when everyone was in the office, I 494 00:23:51,316 --> 00:23:54,876 Speaker 1: think we didn't realize how many tiny infusions of air 495 00:23:54,996 --> 00:23:58,076 Speaker 1: into our happiness tire we got from social connection, you know, 496 00:23:58,156 --> 00:24:00,676 Speaker 1: like I'll chat with my office assistant, and then I'll 497 00:24:00,676 --> 00:24:02,436 Speaker 1: see a student in the hallway, and then I'll run 498 00:24:02,476 --> 00:24:04,796 Speaker 1: into a custodial staff worker, and I'll chat with a 499 00:24:04,796 --> 00:24:07,516 Speaker 1: professor colleague. Each one of those tiny things I'm not 500 00:24:07,636 --> 00:24:10,996 Speaker 1: thinking of as like moment that's building up my happiness, 501 00:24:11,276 --> 00:24:13,636 Speaker 1: but in practice they are and so I think we 502 00:24:13,716 --> 00:24:16,076 Speaker 1: haven't fully processed what is it going to mean when 503 00:24:16,076 --> 00:24:18,556 Speaker 1: we don't have all of those little infusions into our 504 00:24:18,636 --> 00:24:22,476 Speaker 1: happiness tire and with remote work, unless you're finding strategic 505 00:24:22,476 --> 00:24:25,116 Speaker 1: ways to build that stuff back in, you're like not 506 00:24:25,156 --> 00:24:27,476 Speaker 1: going to get them naturally. And so as we think 507 00:24:27,516 --> 00:24:29,756 Speaker 1: about remote work, I think that's the most important part 508 00:24:29,836 --> 00:24:31,796 Speaker 1: is where are you going to get your little subtle 509 00:24:31,836 --> 00:24:34,796 Speaker 1: infusions of social connection to build these things up? And 510 00:24:34,836 --> 00:24:37,076 Speaker 1: I think there's ways to get them. Maybe that's when 511 00:24:37,076 --> 00:24:39,636 Speaker 1: you need your weekend warrior work out right, like you know, 512 00:24:39,756 --> 00:24:43,036 Speaker 1: zooming with people for sure. I really love your comments 513 00:24:43,036 --> 00:24:45,516 Speaker 1: and it's also just interesting to reflect on how many 514 00:24:45,676 --> 00:24:48,196 Speaker 1: Zoom meetings we've had over these past two years. Yeah, 515 00:24:48,196 --> 00:24:50,476 Speaker 1: I think there's like good and bad about the Zoom 516 00:24:50,476 --> 00:24:52,636 Speaker 1: world in which we find ourselves. I think the good 517 00:24:52,756 --> 00:24:55,436 Speaker 1: is that there's so much evidence that connecting in real 518 00:24:55,516 --> 00:24:58,316 Speaker 1: time is the thing that we need for our social connection. Right. 519 00:24:58,436 --> 00:25:00,756 Speaker 1: Obviously in person is better because we can get touch 520 00:25:00,796 --> 00:25:02,556 Speaker 1: and we get all the subtle cues. But like you 521 00:25:02,836 --> 00:25:04,636 Speaker 1: and I are having this conversation and it feels like 522 00:25:04,676 --> 00:25:06,716 Speaker 1: we're really connecting. Maybe not as connecting as well, get 523 00:25:06,716 --> 00:25:09,036 Speaker 1: overwhined and drinks that I don't even throw union come 524 00:25:09,356 --> 00:25:11,596 Speaker 1: it is, but like this is pretty good. And it's 525 00:25:11,636 --> 00:25:14,676 Speaker 1: pretty good because again, the brain responds in real time 526 00:25:14,756 --> 00:25:17,836 Speaker 1: to the kinds of social interactions that we have. So 527 00:25:17,916 --> 00:25:20,716 Speaker 1: that's been really huge is recognizing the kinds of ways 528 00:25:20,716 --> 00:25:23,996 Speaker 1: we can use these platforms to really socially connect, and 529 00:25:24,036 --> 00:25:26,676 Speaker 1: that includes at work too. I think we often use 530 00:25:26,756 --> 00:25:29,476 Speaker 1: Zoom meetings at work just to like work and just 531 00:25:29,516 --> 00:25:31,596 Speaker 1: do a work thing, but we can also find ways 532 00:25:31,596 --> 00:25:35,076 Speaker 1: to use technology to connect more socially and more informally 533 00:25:35,116 --> 00:25:37,396 Speaker 1: with the people at work too. Yes, we did a 534 00:25:37,436 --> 00:25:40,436 Speaker 1: trivia night on Zoom. Actually nice. There was a lot 535 00:25:40,476 --> 00:25:42,756 Speaker 1: of pop culture, so Laurie, I know you would have 536 00:25:42,796 --> 00:25:46,036 Speaker 1: done amazing. We doctors are not as good at that, 537 00:25:46,196 --> 00:25:49,636 Speaker 1: but like, it was a fun way to connect over Zoom, 538 00:25:49,916 --> 00:25:51,676 Speaker 1: and I mean I would do it again. It was 539 00:25:51,996 --> 00:25:55,436 Speaker 1: really fun. And that gets us to the final set 540 00:25:55,476 --> 00:25:58,076 Speaker 1: of challenges that Amy and other listeners wanted us to 541 00:25:58,116 --> 00:26:01,436 Speaker 1: tackle in this episode about improving happiness in a post 542 00:26:01,436 --> 00:26:05,676 Speaker 1: pandemic world, namely, what lessons has COVID taught us about 543 00:26:05,716 --> 00:26:09,036 Speaker 1: improving our overall health and happiness. We'll get to the 544 00:26:09,276 --> 00:26:12,196 Speaker 1: final insights when the Happiness Lab returns in a moment. 545 00:26:22,476 --> 00:26:24,716 Speaker 1: You know, it's weird thinking that we're going back to 546 00:26:24,796 --> 00:26:27,156 Speaker 1: our twenty fifth three union, which is kind of this 547 00:26:27,196 --> 00:26:29,876 Speaker 1: like milestone landmark. But it also feels weird because it 548 00:26:29,876 --> 00:26:32,316 Speaker 1: feels like there's so many like milestone landmarks that we're 549 00:26:32,356 --> 00:26:34,596 Speaker 1: going through. You know, Yale just brought back all our 550 00:26:34,916 --> 00:26:37,316 Speaker 1: students for two commencements, so we're kind of caught up 551 00:26:37,316 --> 00:26:39,716 Speaker 1: on all the graduations we missed out on. I feel 552 00:26:39,716 --> 00:26:42,876 Speaker 1: like we're getting back to like parties and celebrations again. 553 00:26:42,916 --> 00:26:45,396 Speaker 1: Like I feel like we have kind of finished the 554 00:26:45,436 --> 00:26:47,476 Speaker 1: COVID chapter room, and obviously it's not finished and we're 555 00:26:47,476 --> 00:26:49,036 Speaker 1: all still kind of dealing with it, but I feel 556 00:26:49,076 --> 00:26:51,676 Speaker 1: like we're getting to this sort of end point, which 557 00:26:51,716 --> 00:26:54,436 Speaker 1: comes with the possibility of a fresh start and a 558 00:26:54,516 --> 00:26:57,196 Speaker 1: new beginning too that we also don't want to take 559 00:26:57,196 --> 00:27:00,396 Speaker 1: for granted. Definitely agree, it's really an interesting time and 560 00:27:00,436 --> 00:27:02,876 Speaker 1: I'm glad we're talking about this. We also got a 561 00:27:02,956 --> 00:27:05,716 Speaker 1: question that was really specific to this idea of fresh 562 00:27:05,756 --> 00:27:08,036 Speaker 1: starts and how we can use this better. Would you 563 00:27:08,076 --> 00:27:11,076 Speaker 1: like to read the second question we got from our listener, 564 00:27:11,196 --> 00:27:14,156 Speaker 1: Maria Alejandrow. I'm all for making our way through the 565 00:27:14,196 --> 00:27:17,276 Speaker 1: stages of the pandemic, but how do we recover from 566 00:27:17,396 --> 00:27:21,116 Speaker 1: through grief we've experienced in a healthy and more authentic way. 567 00:27:21,516 --> 00:27:24,636 Speaker 1: How do we acknowledge what we've been through and continue 568 00:27:24,676 --> 00:27:27,756 Speaker 1: to show compassion for each other instead of this rush 569 00:27:27,836 --> 00:27:30,356 Speaker 1: to just get back to normal. I love Maria's question 570 00:27:30,396 --> 00:27:33,116 Speaker 1: about this idea of the rush, because you know, on 571 00:27:33,156 --> 00:27:35,116 Speaker 1: the one hand, like, well, I know so much about 572 00:27:35,156 --> 00:27:37,516 Speaker 1: how we need to grieve what we've gone through and 573 00:27:37,556 --> 00:27:39,716 Speaker 1: so on. I also get the rush part two where 574 00:27:39,716 --> 00:27:42,076 Speaker 1: it's like pretend everything's fine, like if act normal, I've 575 00:27:42,116 --> 00:27:43,796 Speaker 1: missed all this stuff for so long. I just want 576 00:27:43,836 --> 00:27:46,516 Speaker 1: to like pretend it's fine. But at the same time, 577 00:27:46,556 --> 00:27:49,516 Speaker 1: like we're all struggling, Like I imagined. This is so 578 00:27:49,796 --> 00:27:52,716 Speaker 1: palatable in the healthcare field right where it's like, yeah, 579 00:27:52,796 --> 00:27:54,956 Speaker 1: hang on, like time out, like this has sucked, like 580 00:27:55,076 --> 00:27:58,076 Speaker 1: we need to break Yes, I definitely agree. I think 581 00:27:58,356 --> 00:28:01,476 Speaker 1: a lot of us are now really pondering what we've 582 00:28:01,476 --> 00:28:04,116 Speaker 1: just been through and how how are we going to 583 00:28:04,116 --> 00:28:07,196 Speaker 1: continue to move forward? And it is really a challenging 584 00:28:07,196 --> 00:28:09,396 Speaker 1: time to think about that too. This was something that 585 00:28:09,396 --> 00:28:12,236 Speaker 1: I saw it firsthand. So Yale, we just finally brought 586 00:28:12,236 --> 00:28:14,876 Speaker 1: back the Class of twenty twenty, which is the college 587 00:28:14,876 --> 00:28:17,716 Speaker 1: student class that got unceremoniously kicked out in March of 588 00:28:17,756 --> 00:28:20,116 Speaker 1: twenty twenty, Like they just got kicked off campus for 589 00:28:20,156 --> 00:28:22,076 Speaker 1: two years. They didn't get to come back or see 590 00:28:22,076 --> 00:28:24,316 Speaker 1: their friends. And they all came back and it was 591 00:28:24,396 --> 00:28:27,236 Speaker 1: amazing and it was super fun. But you know, it 592 00:28:27,276 --> 00:28:30,676 Speaker 1: made me realize how little we'd processed that trauma. Get 593 00:28:30,716 --> 00:28:33,716 Speaker 1: had all these side conversations with students about how much 594 00:28:33,756 --> 00:28:36,236 Speaker 1: it sucked or how much they missed home, and I 595 00:28:36,236 --> 00:28:38,156 Speaker 1: think they were seeing it firsthand when they got back 596 00:28:38,156 --> 00:28:40,516 Speaker 1: to campus. You know, they get to stay on campus 597 00:28:40,596 --> 00:28:43,276 Speaker 1: in their old rooms and they'd be showering and burst 598 00:28:43,316 --> 00:28:45,076 Speaker 1: into tears because they're like, oh my gosh, I just 599 00:28:45,196 --> 00:28:47,476 Speaker 1: left the shower out of nowhere. You know, it sounds 600 00:28:47,516 --> 00:28:50,396 Speaker 1: so silly, but I think there's all these tiny things 601 00:28:50,396 --> 00:28:53,276 Speaker 1: we've lost in addition to the things we've lost, and 602 00:28:53,316 --> 00:28:55,236 Speaker 1: I think the way to deal with that is really 603 00:28:55,396 --> 00:28:58,796 Speaker 1: take some explicit time out to process this stuff. There's 604 00:28:58,796 --> 00:29:01,996 Speaker 1: so much evidence that we need to actually grieve. We 605 00:29:02,036 --> 00:29:05,036 Speaker 1: can't just like shove our emotions away and pretend that 606 00:29:05,076 --> 00:29:07,596 Speaker 1: they're going to be fine. There's some lovely work by 607 00:29:07,596 --> 00:29:11,516 Speaker 1: the Stanford neuroscientists Gross and his colleagues showing that when 608 00:29:11,556 --> 00:29:14,076 Speaker 1: you have negative emotions, our assumption is like, oh, we 609 00:29:14,116 --> 00:29:16,396 Speaker 1: can just stuff them down, but in practice that just 610 00:29:16,436 --> 00:29:19,076 Speaker 1: like simply doesn't work. James Gross does these lovely tasks 611 00:29:19,076 --> 00:29:21,596 Speaker 1: where he has his subjects watch a little short video 612 00:29:21,716 --> 00:29:23,756 Speaker 1: that's like sad. You know. So subject comes into the lab, 613 00:29:23,796 --> 00:29:26,276 Speaker 1: they watch some sad YouTube video and he tells his subjects, 614 00:29:26,276 --> 00:29:28,716 Speaker 1: whatever you do, don't feel sad, just like pretend it's fine. 615 00:29:28,916 --> 00:29:30,836 Speaker 1: Then he has his subjects do some like you know, 616 00:29:31,036 --> 00:29:33,836 Speaker 1: thinking task or some memory task. And what he finds 617 00:29:33,916 --> 00:29:36,716 Speaker 1: like people perform terribly right, Like they do worse on 618 00:29:36,716 --> 00:29:39,116 Speaker 1: a memory task, they do worse on a risk taking task. 619 00:29:39,276 --> 00:29:42,116 Speaker 1: And then also if you measure people's heart processing, they 620 00:29:42,116 --> 00:29:44,756 Speaker 1: actually show signs of like cardiac stress even and just 621 00:29:44,796 --> 00:29:48,196 Speaker 1: in this really short laboratory task where you're suppressing this emotion, 622 00:29:48,476 --> 00:29:50,636 Speaker 1: and so like, if that happens when you're suppressing like 623 00:29:50,676 --> 00:29:54,236 Speaker 1: your emotions about some dumb YouTube video, imagine what is happening, 624 00:29:54,516 --> 00:29:56,596 Speaker 1: not just after the pandemic. We're in the midst of 625 00:29:56,636 --> 00:29:59,996 Speaker 1: like fighting racial violence and climate change and war in Europe. 626 00:30:00,036 --> 00:30:02,276 Speaker 1: Right there's just like a lot of tragedy and bad 627 00:30:02,276 --> 00:30:05,156 Speaker 1: stuff that's happening around us, and the move of just 628 00:30:05,236 --> 00:30:07,236 Speaker 1: like pretend it's not happening, just like move on with 629 00:30:07,276 --> 00:30:09,876 Speaker 1: your life. It's ultimately not going to work in the 630 00:30:09,876 --> 00:30:12,316 Speaker 1: way we think. I think the advice is really to 631 00:30:12,476 --> 00:30:15,756 Speaker 1: give yourself some space to process this stuff. This was 632 00:30:15,796 --> 00:30:18,556 Speaker 1: something that I did personally, especially after the twenty twenties 633 00:30:18,556 --> 00:30:21,236 Speaker 1: students got back. I think I didn't realize how much 634 00:30:21,236 --> 00:30:23,996 Speaker 1: I missed them and how much it sucked to lose 635 00:30:23,996 --> 00:30:25,836 Speaker 1: them and to lose my community. Like I just spent 636 00:30:25,916 --> 00:30:28,316 Speaker 1: some time like going for walks and just like letting 637 00:30:28,356 --> 00:30:32,356 Speaker 1: myself cry when no one was around, and it felt indulgent, 638 00:30:32,476 --> 00:30:35,156 Speaker 1: but honestly afterwards it felt like, you know, I let 639 00:30:35,196 --> 00:30:37,476 Speaker 1: out some of those emotions that were in the pressure 640 00:30:37,476 --> 00:30:39,956 Speaker 1: cooker that I really needed to let out. I'm so 641 00:30:39,996 --> 00:30:42,356 Speaker 1: glad you did that. Yeah, If the same advice is 642 00:30:42,396 --> 00:30:44,556 Speaker 1: happening in the healthcare field, if this is the kind 643 00:30:44,556 --> 00:30:47,516 Speaker 1: of thing doctors and nurses are doing to process some 644 00:30:47,556 --> 00:30:50,716 Speaker 1: of their negative emotions too. Honestly, I think we could 645 00:30:50,716 --> 00:30:53,316 Speaker 1: be doing a lot more of what you're recommending, because 646 00:30:53,356 --> 00:30:55,956 Speaker 1: I think we're still on this roller coaster. You know, 647 00:30:55,956 --> 00:30:59,356 Speaker 1: at work, we're still extremely careful wearing masks all the time. 648 00:30:59,476 --> 00:31:02,476 Speaker 1: You know, we're still facing COVID infections amongst our colleagues 649 00:31:02,516 --> 00:31:04,676 Speaker 1: or our patients, of course, and so we're still on 650 00:31:04,716 --> 00:31:07,876 Speaker 1: the roller coaster. But I think what you're stating right 651 00:31:07,876 --> 00:31:10,036 Speaker 1: now is so important. I think we can really learn 652 00:31:10,076 --> 00:31:13,436 Speaker 1: from that and have some time to really process, honestly, 653 00:31:13,476 --> 00:31:16,476 Speaker 1: what we've been through, because it's it's been crazy, and 654 00:31:16,516 --> 00:31:18,236 Speaker 1: I think one thing we forget is that, you know, 655 00:31:18,316 --> 00:31:20,476 Speaker 1: I mean, obviously, grief takes a long time. You know, 656 00:31:20,516 --> 00:31:22,876 Speaker 1: we've talked about that on the podcast, But I think 657 00:31:22,916 --> 00:31:25,996 Speaker 1: there can be these tiny spaces where we allow ourselves 658 00:31:25,996 --> 00:31:29,076 Speaker 1: to process negative emotions. We did a podcast episode a 659 00:31:29,116 --> 00:31:32,236 Speaker 1: while back with the meditation teacher Tara Brock, who's amazing, 660 00:31:32,516 --> 00:31:35,716 Speaker 1: and she had this lovely process of meditation where you 661 00:31:36,116 --> 00:31:39,076 Speaker 1: recognize and deal with your negative emotions, which goes under 662 00:31:39,116 --> 00:31:42,996 Speaker 1: the acronym of rain brain stands for recognize, Allow, investigate, 663 00:31:42,996 --> 00:31:45,316 Speaker 1: and nurture, and it's just a process that you can 664 00:31:45,356 --> 00:31:47,756 Speaker 1: do over ten minutes where you just sit with and 665 00:31:47,796 --> 00:31:51,356 Speaker 1: recognize your emotions, allow them, you know, let them take 666 00:31:51,396 --> 00:31:53,676 Speaker 1: their course and investigate what they're doing in your body 667 00:31:53,676 --> 00:31:55,876 Speaker 1: as they do that, and then you take time to 668 00:31:55,996 --> 00:31:58,516 Speaker 1: nurture yourself. And the reason I bring it up is again, 669 00:31:58,756 --> 00:32:00,676 Speaker 1: it's process. Do you have to take the time. You 670 00:32:00,676 --> 00:32:02,356 Speaker 1: have to put the work in to do it, but 671 00:32:02,676 --> 00:32:05,196 Speaker 1: you know it takes like ten and fifteen minutes. You know, 672 00:32:05,196 --> 00:32:06,916 Speaker 1: in the ten and fifteen minutes that we're you know, 673 00:32:06,916 --> 00:32:10,036 Speaker 1: scrolling through some scary news, you can take time to 674 00:32:10,076 --> 00:32:11,796 Speaker 1: sit with a little bit of the sadness that you 675 00:32:11,836 --> 00:32:14,116 Speaker 1: have or the frustration that you have. You know, like 676 00:32:14,196 --> 00:32:15,716 Speaker 1: all things we talk about in the podcast, you have 677 00:32:15,716 --> 00:32:17,116 Speaker 1: to actually sit down and do them, and you have 678 00:32:17,156 --> 00:32:19,116 Speaker 1: to commit to them, which doesn't seem like super fun. 679 00:32:19,196 --> 00:32:21,356 Speaker 1: Like it's easier to distract yourself and get some like 680 00:32:21,396 --> 00:32:24,396 Speaker 1: little dopamine hit from your social media, But if you 681 00:32:24,476 --> 00:32:27,396 Speaker 1: give yourself the space to process that stuff, you can 682 00:32:27,556 --> 00:32:29,556 Speaker 1: process it and you can't actually get through it and 683 00:32:29,596 --> 00:32:32,436 Speaker 1: do better. Yeah, I absolutely agree with you. I think 684 00:32:32,436 --> 00:32:34,916 Speaker 1: that's great advice, and certainly I share those types of 685 00:32:34,996 --> 00:32:39,076 Speaker 1: recommendations with my patients as well, because it's really excellent advice. 686 00:32:39,516 --> 00:32:41,436 Speaker 1: Final thing I'll want to end with is that, you know, 687 00:32:41,436 --> 00:32:44,556 Speaker 1: I think, as we think about this nasty at awful time, 688 00:32:44,556 --> 00:32:47,636 Speaker 1: which it was awful and nasty, and it's worth recognizing 689 00:32:47,676 --> 00:32:50,796 Speaker 1: like just how much it sucked, I think another thing 690 00:32:51,116 --> 00:32:54,156 Speaker 1: we forget, though, is that, like these awful times can 691 00:32:54,196 --> 00:32:56,836 Speaker 1: really build us up in ways we don't expect. It 692 00:32:56,876 --> 00:32:58,676 Speaker 1: was really at the start of the pandemic that I 693 00:32:58,676 --> 00:33:01,236 Speaker 1: started to like learn more about the work on what's 694 00:33:01,276 --> 00:33:04,196 Speaker 1: called post traumatic growth. We've all heard about this idea 695 00:33:04,196 --> 00:33:06,156 Speaker 1: of post traumatic stress, and we know that trauma and 696 00:33:06,156 --> 00:33:09,436 Speaker 1: stressful situations can be awful for us and cause all 697 00:33:09,436 --> 00:33:12,756 Speaker 1: these negative consequences. But there's also lots of evidence for 698 00:33:12,836 --> 00:33:15,276 Speaker 1: what's called post traumatic growth, which is like after some 699 00:33:15,396 --> 00:33:19,836 Speaker 1: nasty event, you feel better, you feel more resilient, you 700 00:33:19,876 --> 00:33:22,716 Speaker 1: feel stronger, In many cases, you feel more socially connected. 701 00:33:23,076 --> 00:33:25,676 Speaker 1: Post Traumatic growth is often talked about in the context 702 00:33:25,716 --> 00:33:29,476 Speaker 1: of really scary medical diagnoses, right, like a cancer diagnosis. 703 00:33:29,476 --> 00:33:31,836 Speaker 1: Obviously no one would want that, but I'm sure as 704 00:33:31,876 --> 00:33:35,116 Speaker 1: an oncologist you've also seen that people sometimes respond with 705 00:33:35,156 --> 00:33:37,556 Speaker 1: feeling like resilience. If I can get through this, I 706 00:33:37,556 --> 00:33:40,196 Speaker 1: can get through anything, like they write these deeper social 707 00:33:40,196 --> 00:33:42,636 Speaker 1: connections and so on, and so I think we have 708 00:33:42,676 --> 00:33:45,916 Speaker 1: to not forget the power of our psychological immune system 709 00:33:46,036 --> 00:33:48,276 Speaker 1: that even in the midst of really bad stuff, we 710 00:33:48,396 --> 00:33:51,916 Speaker 1: can start to feel better with the right strategies. I 711 00:33:51,996 --> 00:33:54,556 Speaker 1: love that. I'm so glad that you've brought up that 712 00:33:54,596 --> 00:33:57,756 Speaker 1: concept because I've recently been learning more about post traumatic 713 00:33:57,756 --> 00:34:00,356 Speaker 1: growth as well, and I fully agree it certainly applies 714 00:34:00,396 --> 00:34:03,116 Speaker 1: to all of us who have lived through this very 715 00:34:03,196 --> 00:34:05,756 Speaker 1: challenging time of the pandemic. But also it's a strategy 716 00:34:05,796 --> 00:34:07,756 Speaker 1: that I do talk about with my patients as well. 717 00:34:07,916 --> 00:34:09,876 Speaker 1: I mean, again, I agree with you. Nobody wants to 718 00:34:09,956 --> 00:34:12,956 Speaker 1: tigers as of cancer, but after a diagnosis of cancer, 719 00:34:12,956 --> 00:34:15,516 Speaker 1: it sometimes it is an opportunity for an individual to 720 00:34:15,596 --> 00:34:18,116 Speaker 1: really question, like what is important to me, how do 721 00:34:18,156 --> 00:34:19,956 Speaker 1: I want to move forward? What are changes I might 722 00:34:19,956 --> 00:34:22,356 Speaker 1: want to make in my life with my job to 723 00:34:22,396 --> 00:34:24,876 Speaker 1: continue to move forward. And I think it's a really 724 00:34:24,876 --> 00:34:27,116 Speaker 1: powerful concept, and I think this is a really nice 725 00:34:27,116 --> 00:34:29,396 Speaker 1: spot for us to end, because you know, if all 726 00:34:29,436 --> 00:34:32,796 Speaker 1: of us took this yucky, terrible time in the pandemic 727 00:34:32,956 --> 00:34:35,476 Speaker 1: to think about exactly those changes we want to make. 728 00:34:35,516 --> 00:34:37,116 Speaker 1: What are the changes we want to make for our 729 00:34:37,156 --> 00:34:38,996 Speaker 1: health in terms of our job, in terms of the 730 00:34:38,996 --> 00:34:40,916 Speaker 1: way we live our life, in terms of the strategies 731 00:34:40,916 --> 00:34:43,076 Speaker 1: that we use to navigate our day to day lives. 732 00:34:43,196 --> 00:34:45,116 Speaker 1: You know, if all of us asked that question really 733 00:34:45,156 --> 00:34:48,716 Speaker 1: seriously and put in some new strategies intentionally, I think 734 00:34:48,716 --> 00:34:51,876 Speaker 1: we could all be healthier and happier and use this 735 00:34:51,916 --> 00:34:54,436 Speaker 1: moment as like a really good fresh start rather than 736 00:34:54,476 --> 00:34:56,396 Speaker 1: just like a nasty time that we're all getting through. 737 00:34:56,716 --> 00:34:58,116 Speaker 1: And so it's a nice way that we can all 738 00:34:58,116 --> 00:35:01,676 Speaker 1: harness the pandemic to help our health and our happiness. Amy, 739 00:35:01,676 --> 00:35:03,556 Speaker 1: you're the best podcast host. You should just like take 740 00:35:03,596 --> 00:35:06,996 Speaker 1: over the Happiness laugh. You're amazing. I'm just gonna listen 741 00:35:07,036 --> 00:35:11,676 Speaker 1: to doctor Laurie Santos all day. Huge thanks to my 742 00:35:11,716 --> 00:35:15,076 Speaker 1: longtime friend and former Lab buddy, doctor Amy Commander for 743 00:35:15,156 --> 00:35:17,996 Speaker 1: submitting such a great question and for doing such a 744 00:35:18,036 --> 00:35:22,036 Speaker 1: fabulous job as our inaugural guest host. That's a rap 745 00:35:22,116 --> 00:35:25,396 Speaker 1: for the Happiness Lab Listeners Questions Special Edition. But we'd 746 00:35:25,396 --> 00:35:28,196 Speaker 1: still love to hear from you, so keep sending in 747 00:35:28,276 --> 00:35:31,556 Speaker 1: your questions and all your ideas for new episodes. We'll 748 00:35:31,556 --> 00:35:34,116 Speaker 1: be back in September with a full season of new shows. 749 00:35:34,636 --> 00:35:37,676 Speaker 1: We'll be tackling topics like how to handle regret, how 750 00:35:37,716 --> 00:35:40,836 Speaker 1: to become happier parents, and how to use our environment 751 00:35:40,876 --> 00:35:44,836 Speaker 1: to boost our mood. Until then, stay safe and stay happy. 752 00:35:56,236 --> 00:35:59,156 Speaker 1: The Happiness Lab is co written and produced by Ryan Dilley, 753 00:35:59,316 --> 00:36:03,196 Speaker 1: Emily Anne Vaughn, and Courtney Guerino. Our original music was 754 00:36:03,236 --> 00:36:07,116 Speaker 1: composed by Zachary Silver, with additional scoring, mixing and mastering 755 00:36:07,156 --> 00:36:11,916 Speaker 1: by Evan Viola. Special thanks Tomi LaBelle, Heather Fame, John Schnars, 756 00:36:12,076 --> 00:36:16,716 Speaker 1: Carli Migliori, Christina Sullivan, Grant Haynes, Maggie Taylor, Eric Sandler, 757 00:36:16,956 --> 00:36:21,836 Speaker 1: Nicole Morano, Royston Preserve, Jacob Weisberg, and my agent Ben Davis. 758 00:36:22,676 --> 00:36:25,276 Speaker 1: That Happiness Lab is brought to you by Pushkin Industries 759 00:36:25,356 --> 00:36:29,196 Speaker 1: and me Doctor Laurie Santos. To find more Pushkin podcasts, 760 00:36:29,396 --> 00:36:32,796 Speaker 1: listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 761 00:36:32,796 --> 00:36:33,916 Speaker 1: listen to your podcasts.