WEBVTT - All About Oakmont, Host of the 2025 U.S. Open 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:02.520 I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. 0:00:02.640 --> 0:00:04.920 When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:00:05.000 --> 0:00:07.200 And when I find my ball in a brid egg. 0:00:07.200 --> 0:00:10.559 Friday Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg, Frida Egg, fridagg Egg, 0:00:10.640 --> 0:00:11.840 Frida egg bride egg. 0:00:11.720 --> 0:00:13.640 Lie, I'm about ready to run off of the hump. 0:00:37.800 --> 0:00:41.480 Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Golf Podcast. 0:00:41.560 --> 0:00:44.919 I am your host, Andy Johnson. Today. I am very 0:00:44.960 --> 0:00:50.479 excited about this podcast. We have a comprehensive look at 0:00:50.560 --> 0:00:55.200 Oakmont Country Club. I was thrilled to be joined by 0:00:55.760 --> 0:01:02.720 their consulting golf architect who completed a historical renovation of Oakmont, 0:01:02.800 --> 0:01:06.840 Gil Hants. Gil joined for the first thirty minutes of 0:01:06.880 --> 0:01:09.759 this podcast to talk about the project and uh, kind 0:01:09.800 --> 0:01:12.120 of the new look Oakmon and what we can expect. 0:01:12.640 --> 0:01:12.840 Uh. 0:01:12.880 --> 0:01:16.120 And then on the on the the second guest is 0:01:16.240 --> 0:01:23.200 Oakmont's superintendent. They're head of agronomy, Mike McCormick. So quite 0:01:23.360 --> 0:01:26.880 the uh the crew. Mike talks about the golf course, 0:01:26.959 --> 0:01:30.319 the agronomy obviously that's going to be a big talking 0:01:30.360 --> 0:01:33.800 point as always with Oakmont, is the conditions, the world 0:01:33.959 --> 0:01:38.800 class maintenance, the you know, really they have an identity 0:01:39.040 --> 0:01:42.080 of being the toughest golf course in the world, and 0:01:42.120 --> 0:01:47.039 they do everything to to feed into that identity. It's 0:01:47.080 --> 0:01:50.720 an interesting aspect of Oakmont, right, is like when I 0:01:50.720 --> 0:01:54.040 talk to you like golf courses or greens committees, one 0:01:54.080 --> 0:01:56.480 of the things I always stress is like finding your 0:01:56.640 --> 0:02:01.280 identity so often in the country club or the golf 0:02:01.800 --> 0:02:05.400 really and across the play across the spectrum the golf 0:02:05.400 --> 0:02:10.000 course space. What happens is golf courses look at maybe 0:02:10.040 --> 0:02:12.880 the most most famous course in town, or you know, 0:02:12.919 --> 0:02:15.240 if it's in the public sphere, like the public course 0:02:15.320 --> 0:02:19.320 down the road, and they look at that golf course as, hey, 0:02:19.520 --> 0:02:23.000 let's base our let's try and do what they're doing. 0:02:23.120 --> 0:02:27.960 They try and mimic rather than finding their own core identity. 0:02:28.960 --> 0:02:31.880 One of the things I you know, I would say 0:02:32.840 --> 0:02:37.000 I was not like super excited to see Oakmont because 0:02:37.000 --> 0:02:41.280 of the identity of heart, but I really love the 0:02:41.320 --> 0:02:43.840 golf course. And one of the things I've thought about 0:02:43.880 --> 0:02:46.880 since seeing the golf course was, this is what the 0:02:47.120 --> 0:02:51.079 identity of the golf course was from the founding, and 0:02:51.440 --> 0:02:54.800 it's got one of the strongest identities in all of 0:02:54.840 --> 0:02:58.880 the world of golf like Oakmont knows, unapologetically knows who 0:02:58.919 --> 0:03:05.239 it is, and Oakmont does everything to amplify their individual identity, 0:03:05.400 --> 0:03:09.800 which is challenging, and I find that actually quite refreshing 0:03:09.840 --> 0:03:11.720 when you take a step back and think about it. 0:03:11.960 --> 0:03:16.079 I think that's why it's really hard to find people 0:03:16.120 --> 0:03:19.400 that dislike Oakmont, even though it is one of the 0:03:19.440 --> 0:03:22.360 hardest golf courses in the world, is because it is 0:03:22.440 --> 0:03:25.760 so true to itself. And I think that's like probably 0:03:26.480 --> 0:03:29.720 a you know, when you think about your favorite golf 0:03:29.800 --> 0:03:35.880 courses you've ever played, the likelihood of it being really clear, 0:03:36.080 --> 0:03:39.640 like intentional with its own identity as a course as 0:03:39.680 --> 0:03:44.520 a place is probably a correlation there. It's probably a 0:03:44.520 --> 0:03:48.920 strong correlation value. So anyways, this was a fun podcast 0:03:48.960 --> 0:03:51.600 to put together. I will be at Oakmont all week. 0:03:51.640 --> 0:03:54.360 This kind of kicks off our US Open coverage. We 0:03:54.520 --> 0:03:58.240 will have our preview podcasts. We'll probably talk a little 0:03:58.240 --> 0:04:01.400 bit about the golf course there too. Obviously always a 0:04:01.520 --> 0:04:04.960 huge story with the US Open since they rotate courses 0:04:05.000 --> 0:04:10.160 and go to the greatest American venues. So we will 0:04:10.200 --> 0:04:14.520 have our preview episode which will drop on Sunday morning 0:04:15.120 --> 0:04:17.760 leading into the US Open week well of this one. 0:04:18.400 --> 0:04:23.599 Garrett Morrison on Designing Golf is also his podcast Designing 0:04:23.640 --> 0:04:29.680 Golf is also prepping a comprehensive podcast about Oakmont, so 0:04:30.240 --> 0:04:34.800 that will also be airing and worth your time. Anything 0:04:34.839 --> 0:04:37.560 Garrett does is always worth your time, So I'm excited. 0:04:37.600 --> 0:04:40.320 I haven't listened to that, but I'm very excited about that. 0:04:40.440 --> 0:04:43.279 So if you listen to this and what's your appetite 0:04:43.279 --> 0:04:45.440 and you say I want more, I've got a couple 0:04:45.480 --> 0:04:48.640 of good options for you. Our Oakmont video on YouTube, 0:04:48.960 --> 0:04:52.560 which thank you to everybody who's gone watched that and 0:04:52.600 --> 0:04:56.480 shared it. We're really proud of our work putting that together. 0:04:57.000 --> 0:04:59.719 That was a lot of the work. It was done 0:04:59.720 --> 0:05:01.320 by a lot of people, but a lot of the 0:05:01.360 --> 0:05:06.320 work was done by Cameron Hurtis are great producer, and 0:05:07.400 --> 0:05:11.000 yeah we are. We are really excited for this major 0:05:11.200 --> 0:05:13.839 and and can't wait to get there. And then the 0:05:13.920 --> 0:05:17.680 other thing to check out is Garrett's Oakmont piece. He'll 0:05:17.720 --> 0:05:21.760 also have a written course profile on our website, Thefrida 0:05:21.760 --> 0:05:25.160 egg dot com to check out. That will be the 0:05:25.200 --> 0:05:28.960 back half of this week. So lots of stuff on 0:05:29.040 --> 0:05:32.359 Oakmont coming from us, and this will be kind of 0:05:32.400 --> 0:05:35.919 the the kickoff of that. But big thanks to Gil 0:05:36.000 --> 0:05:38.480 and Mike for for taking time out of their very 0:05:38.520 --> 0:05:42.200 busy schedules. Both of them are very busy right now. Also, 0:05:42.640 --> 0:05:47.440 before we get to Gil, a big thanks to our partner, Toro. 0:05:48.880 --> 0:05:51.520 This episode is brought to you by Toro, the only 0:05:51.600 --> 0:05:55.080 brand with a full line of equipment and irrigation products 0:05:55.160 --> 0:05:58.159 to keep your golf course in top condition. Toro is 0:05:58.240 --> 0:06:01.560 serious about research and develop and they're also out there 0:06:01.640 --> 0:06:04.880 listening to superintendents so they can develop products that help 0:06:04.960 --> 0:06:07.760 you solve your biggest challenges. And when it comes to 0:06:07.800 --> 0:06:11.839 local service and support, their distributor network is second to none. 0:06:12.120 --> 0:06:15.800 See how Toro is always solving problems and always evolving 0:06:16.000 --> 0:06:19.599 at Toro dot com. All right, let's get to Gil. 0:06:27.279 --> 0:06:29.520 All right, Gil, You've worked at a number of the 0:06:29.560 --> 0:06:33.080 world's best courses, a lot of what people would consider 0:06:33.160 --> 0:06:37.640 some of the best US open venues. What makes Oakmont unique? 0:06:39.560 --> 0:06:44.279 You know, I've said Oakmont was born and from day 0:06:44.320 --> 0:06:48.840 one has been unapologetically difficult. I mean they set out 0:06:48.920 --> 0:06:52.040 right from the get go. Henry Phone said we're going 0:06:52.080 --> 0:06:54.159 to build something that's going to be very, very challenging, 0:06:55.040 --> 0:06:57.279 and I think it's maintained that all the way through 0:06:57.279 --> 0:07:02.480 its existence, so it has been unapologet cleate challenging. And 0:07:02.880 --> 0:07:05.039 you know, they you know, the old mantra, they set 0:07:05.080 --> 0:07:08.040 it up less extreme for the US Open than they 0:07:08.040 --> 0:07:11.040 do for the membership is sometimes not that far off. 0:07:11.080 --> 0:07:15.360 But I think Oakmond has has always had that ability 0:07:15.440 --> 0:07:18.200 to set itself as one of the more difficult tests 0:07:18.200 --> 0:07:18.600 in golf. 0:07:18.600 --> 0:07:22.440 And I think that, you know, the US Open setups. 0:07:22.000 --> 0:07:24.720 Have evolved over a long period of time, but when 0:07:24.760 --> 0:07:27.880 the US Open setup was what we refer to as 0:07:27.920 --> 0:07:30.280 the old US Open setup, I think Oakmont was the 0:07:30.280 --> 0:07:30.920 perfect test. 0:07:32.640 --> 0:07:36.440 Yeah, I mean that that old setup that you reference 0:07:36.600 --> 0:07:39.760 is if you look at kind of old photos of 0:07:40.360 --> 0:07:44.760 past US Opens at Oakmont, sayre pre ninety four, that 0:07:45.280 --> 0:07:49.600 really thick, rough and you know, kind of narrow fairways. 0:07:49.680 --> 0:07:53.800 And I'm curious after your work there. You know, there 0:07:53.800 --> 0:07:57.520 are obviously people can sit and it's hard to put 0:07:57.560 --> 0:08:00.240 every golf course in a box, but there are three 0:08:00.280 --> 0:08:07.240 schools of golf architecture penal, strategic, and heroic. Today as 0:08:07.280 --> 0:08:09.560 it stands, which school would you put Oakmon in? 0:08:10.200 --> 0:08:13.480 Well, Oakmon still has really thick, rough and really narrow fairways, 0:08:13.520 --> 0:08:16.000 even after we finished our work, but I think I 0:08:16.000 --> 0:08:19.800 think everybody would normally relate Oakmont to the penal school 0:08:19.800 --> 0:08:23.480 of architecture. You know, basically put up obstacles in front 0:08:23.480 --> 0:08:25.600 of you and you just need to overcome them. I 0:08:25.640 --> 0:08:29.120 think in our study of the history and the evolution 0:08:29.240 --> 0:08:33.560 of that golf course, it was significantly more strategic in 0:08:33.600 --> 0:08:36.080 its earlier days. And you know, there were certainly penal 0:08:36.080 --> 0:08:39.600 aspects to it, but there were certain holes that we've 0:08:39.640 --> 0:08:42.680 restored that had just amazing sort of choices to make 0:08:42.720 --> 0:08:46.920 off of the tea. And I also believe that one 0:08:46.920 --> 0:08:51.040 of the things that is really underreported and under discussed 0:08:51.040 --> 0:08:55.040 as it relates to Oakmon is the topography and the 0:08:55.240 --> 0:08:58.280 requirements to place your ball to a proper side of 0:08:58.280 --> 0:09:00.880 a fairway in order to keep your in the fairway 0:09:01.480 --> 0:09:04.120 and utilize the slopes, et cetera. So I think the 0:09:04.120 --> 0:09:07.240 phones has always use those slopes as a critical part 0:09:08.320 --> 0:09:10.640 of the design. And while it looked like it was 0:09:10.679 --> 0:09:12.960 bunker bunker bunker everywhere, and so that would make you 0:09:13.000 --> 0:09:16.360 think it was more penal, the strategy was actually more 0:09:16.400 --> 0:09:18.520 involved in Okay, how do you hit your ball in 0:09:18.559 --> 0:09:20.160 the fairway when you get it there? And where does 0:09:20.200 --> 0:09:21.520 it ultimately wind up in? 0:09:21.559 --> 0:09:22.840 What position does that put you in? 0:09:24.080 --> 0:09:27.920 Yeah, and it's shaped also with that topography, like being 0:09:27.960 --> 0:09:31.439 able to hit a ball that counters, you know, with spin, 0:09:31.600 --> 0:09:34.760 counter some of the slope because you know the gravity 0:09:34.760 --> 0:09:37.839 out there. You talked about the property being under talked 0:09:37.840 --> 0:09:43.080 about what stands out about the property and how the 0:09:43.120 --> 0:09:44.880 golf course uses the property. 0:09:45.840 --> 0:09:47.920 Yeah, you know now that the trees are gone, and 0:09:47.960 --> 0:09:49.560 when you stand up there at the clubhouse and you 0:09:49.600 --> 0:09:52.960 look across, you realize what the scale of the landscape 0:09:53.000 --> 0:09:57.520 is massive, and the scale of the features are large, right, 0:09:57.520 --> 0:10:00.600 The greens are big, the fairways are numerous, so they sorry, 0:10:00.760 --> 0:10:04.160 the bunkers are numerous, so they're everywhere. The scale of 0:10:04.200 --> 0:10:07.559 the topography is pretty pretty bold as well. So now 0:10:07.600 --> 0:10:11.360 you've got this the ability to look across that landscape 0:10:11.360 --> 0:10:14.960 and see what they saw and how they took the 0:10:15.040 --> 0:10:17.280 scale of the features and the scale of the property 0:10:17.960 --> 0:10:22.520 and married it into ultimately what is a pretty strong landscape. 0:10:22.640 --> 0:10:24.600 I mean, you get the holes, the upper parts of 0:10:24.640 --> 0:10:27.800 one and nine and eleven and ten all sort of 0:10:27.840 --> 0:10:30.240 feel when you're in the clubhouse looking out, you feel 0:10:30.320 --> 0:10:32.560 sort of flatish and plateau up there. But you know 0:10:32.600 --> 0:10:37.280 as they drop away one as nine climbs, as ten drops, 0:10:37.320 --> 0:10:41.559 as eleven climbs, and certainly twelve. As it drops, there's 0:10:41.600 --> 0:10:43.439 a lot of topography going on. And then you look 0:10:43.480 --> 0:10:46.840 across the turnpike and you can see how tilted, you know, 0:10:46.880 --> 0:10:50.320 the elevation change from three green down to seven green 0:10:50.400 --> 0:10:51.280 is dramatic. 0:10:52.040 --> 0:10:55.800 It's funny. David. Before I played the golf course, we 0:10:55.880 --> 0:11:00.800 interviewed David Moore and this was my first visit, and 0:11:01.280 --> 0:11:04.560 he talked about how phones really wanted it to be 0:11:04.600 --> 0:11:08.840 a links course, and I was kind of like, you know, 0:11:08.880 --> 0:11:14.040 I've never heard any reference to links course at Oakmont, 0:11:14.120 --> 0:11:16.839 and like, that's kind of crazy just because of the 0:11:16.920 --> 0:11:18.880 nat I think it's because of the nature of like 0:11:19.000 --> 0:11:23.160 how America describes Oakmont. But then you go out there, 0:11:24.200 --> 0:11:27.480 and I was also fresh off like ten days in Scotland, 0:11:27.520 --> 0:11:29.400 and you go out there and you look once you 0:11:29.440 --> 0:11:32.000 get out there and really look at the holes and 0:11:32.040 --> 0:11:35.320 the way they kind of drape over the land and 0:11:35.800 --> 0:11:40.200 the minimal you know, earth movement, but the way that 0:11:40.559 --> 0:11:44.520 I I was stunned at how naturally so many of 0:11:44.559 --> 0:11:47.600 the golf holes sit on that property, because you know, 0:11:47.640 --> 0:11:50.880 if you think about building it in the early nineteen hundreds, 0:11:51.240 --> 0:11:56.120 it wasn't really a time where you could alter land. 0:11:57.360 --> 0:11:59.679 Yeah, and I think the way they drape over the 0:11:59.760 --> 0:12:01.320 land escape is a great description. 0:12:01.400 --> 0:12:01.800 I love that. 0:12:01.840 --> 0:12:04.440 I mean that sounds perfect because it's absolutely true. And 0:12:04.520 --> 0:12:07.040 when you start to peel back some of the layers 0:12:07.080 --> 0:12:09.840 of the design, like the tenth hole. Obviously the green 0:12:09.960 --> 0:12:13.760 runs away and also runs hard to the left. In 0:12:13.840 --> 0:12:17.160 their design the opening to the front right of the green, 0:12:17.200 --> 0:12:18.960 you're supposed to land your ball short and let it 0:12:19.000 --> 0:12:23.960 feed on and in sub in various renovations, after the 0:12:23.960 --> 0:12:27.160 phones is left that was blocked off by some put 0:12:27.160 --> 0:12:29.480 a bunker in there, So we remove that now and 0:12:29.640 --> 0:12:32.040 slid that back over its original position. So now you 0:12:32.080 --> 0:12:35.080 can actually utilize the land You can use the landforms 0:12:35.080 --> 0:12:36.959 to feed balls in the same thing it happened on 0:12:37.080 --> 0:12:39.520 number one where a bunker had been drug across the approach. 0:12:40.280 --> 0:12:44.959 So they utilize the landscape and understood that frequently, especially 0:12:45.040 --> 0:12:49.440 before irrigation. And you've got that hard Pittsburgh dirt, you know, 0:12:49.480 --> 0:12:51.200 balls are going to have to bounce and run and 0:12:51.240 --> 0:12:54.760 then feed their ways into these greens. And now that 0:12:54.920 --> 0:12:57.440 linksy characteristic has been restored to the golf course. 0:12:58.160 --> 0:13:02.160 I think that's one one of the neat things. Obviously 0:13:02.200 --> 0:13:05.480 with ten and one, you know, it's you don't this 0:13:05.559 --> 0:13:07.920 is not something that normally is in play, but like 0:13:08.320 --> 0:13:11.920 US Open, you start on ten and one and both 0:13:11.960 --> 0:13:16.160 of those holes having that kind of welcome to Oakmont. 0:13:17.000 --> 0:13:20.040 I Jeff Ogilvie in our video that we did on 0:13:20.120 --> 0:13:24.000 Oakmont described it as like you're playing you're fighting against gravity, 0:13:24.440 --> 0:13:29.360 you know, and that that that one in ten, those 0:13:29.400 --> 0:13:34.400 second shots you know, are similar. They're obviously very spread out, 0:13:34.400 --> 0:13:36.640 but similar in the sense of like right out of 0:13:36.640 --> 0:13:39.559 the gate, your face with kind of gravity. And if anything, 0:13:39.800 --> 0:13:41.840 I think the second shot on ten might be harder 0:13:41.880 --> 0:13:44.679 than one because you're gonna be hitting from a downslope, 0:13:44.760 --> 0:13:48.360 you know, you're hitting from a severe lie, and on 0:13:48.360 --> 0:13:51.040 one you at least have the opportunity to be like, oh, 0:13:51.080 --> 0:13:53.080 I can stay up on top and have a flat 0:13:53.120 --> 0:13:54.959 lie into the screen that's screaming away. 0:13:55.520 --> 0:13:57.840 Yeah, it's it's interesting, you know, the word gravity. And 0:13:57.880 --> 0:14:00.760 one of my favorite descriptions of oak was, you know, 0:14:00.800 --> 0:14:03.040 the late great Jim Finnigan I think it was the 0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:08.120 eighty three wrote about the green speeds and we're at 0:14:08.120 --> 0:14:12.000 Oakmont where the laws of friction were held in temporary suspension. 0:14:13.520 --> 0:14:15.960 It was, you know, just that's a great way to describe, 0:14:16.040 --> 0:14:17.200 you know, the green speeds. 0:14:17.240 --> 0:14:19.440 And I think so you've got gravity and friction and 0:14:19.480 --> 0:14:23.320 everything sort of those surfaces being so slippery working against you. 0:14:23.400 --> 0:14:26.680 It's you're right, it's for the first time you step 0:14:26.720 --> 0:14:28.440 on that golf course and you look out over that 0:14:28.520 --> 0:14:31.280 landscape and then playing those you starting on one of 0:14:31.280 --> 0:14:32.680 those two holes, it's got to be a bit of 0:14:32.680 --> 0:14:34.920 a shock to the system. 0:14:35.920 --> 0:14:41.440 You talked a little bit earlier about you know, holes 0:14:41.560 --> 0:14:45.320 with great choices. Now with with some of the features 0:14:45.320 --> 0:14:48.200 you've put back, what's a what's a great example of 0:14:48.280 --> 0:14:50.680 one of those whole of a whole that presents a 0:14:50.720 --> 0:14:51.800 few different choices. 0:14:51.880 --> 0:14:54.360 Now, yeah, I think number seven is the one that 0:14:54.360 --> 0:14:57.320 probably most people will will look at, and I think 0:14:57.360 --> 0:14:59.960 probably the one we're most proud of as a Really 0:15:00.000 --> 0:15:03.640 it's a significant sort of strategy changes from a T shot. 0:15:03.920 --> 0:15:06.880 So we've restored the cross bunker about anywhere from two 0:15:06.960 --> 0:15:09.760 ninety to three ten to carry it uphill and kid 0:15:09.760 --> 0:15:11.520 could be into the wind. So I mean it's a 0:15:12.520 --> 0:15:15.360 choice you have to make as a tour player to 0:15:15.440 --> 0:15:17.760 go over that, and then that gives you the opportunity 0:15:17.760 --> 0:15:20.200 to be up at the elevated portion of the fairway 0:15:20.280 --> 0:15:23.440 seeing the green complex, perfect angle in the way that 0:15:23.480 --> 0:15:25.840 green has set up, perfect angle into the green, probably 0:15:25.880 --> 0:15:26.600 with a shorter. 0:15:26.400 --> 0:15:27.120 Iron in your hand. 0:15:27.280 --> 0:15:30.480 Or then we restored you thirty five forty yards of 0:15:30.520 --> 0:15:33.360 fairway to the right side of that cross bunker, so 0:15:33.400 --> 0:15:35.320 now you can play out to the right. Now the 0:15:35.360 --> 0:15:37.840 ground is tilting and moving further to the right, so 0:15:37.840 --> 0:15:39.840 you've got to control your shape as we talked about. 0:15:40.920 --> 0:15:43.280 But when you're down there, you're at a lower elevation. 0:15:43.520 --> 0:15:47.040 The fairway bunkers make the second shot blind, and you've 0:15:47.040 --> 0:15:49.200 got that green side bunker which is in your way. 0:15:49.320 --> 0:15:52.680 So it's it'll be interesting. I think we worked hard 0:15:52.680 --> 0:15:55.040 to try and figure out with the club and with 0:15:55.120 --> 0:15:59.600 the usgas. So what's that carry number is? That doesn't 0:15:59.600 --> 0:16:02.280 make it? You know, Rory and Bryson are probably not 0:16:02.320 --> 0:16:04.120 going to think twice about it, but you know what 0:16:04.280 --> 0:16:06.560 is that the average guy out there, can they get 0:16:06.680 --> 0:16:09.160 up and over that? And so it'll be it'll be 0:16:09.200 --> 0:16:10.800 a challenge if the wind doesn't come up. I think 0:16:10.960 --> 0:16:13.040 most players will be able to do it. But it's 0:16:13.600 --> 0:16:15.440 I think it gives a lot of different choices and 0:16:15.480 --> 0:16:18.000 obviously the rewards are fairly significant. 0:16:18.800 --> 0:16:21.680 We talk obviously a ton about like when you talk 0:16:21.720 --> 0:16:26.800 about distance, the distance gap, and I hadn't thought about 0:16:26.800 --> 0:16:29.200 this until you just brought this up. The distance gap 0:16:29.240 --> 0:16:31.920 in like an average golfer to a high level golfer. 0:16:32.040 --> 0:16:35.600 When you talk about golf design, there actually is like 0:16:36.080 --> 0:16:38.640 a widening golf. It feels like in the pro game 0:16:38.880 --> 0:16:42.600 of carry gap, like where you know, a bunker you're 0:16:42.600 --> 0:16:45.600 talking about for Bryson or Rory is then becomes completely 0:16:45.640 --> 0:16:48.120 irrelevant for like a lot of the rest of the field. 0:16:48.480 --> 0:16:52.840 Right, It's very true. Yeah, you have to kind of balance. 0:16:54.080 --> 0:16:55.560 You know, I don't want to get into Frisco, but 0:16:55.600 --> 0:16:57.720 that was a lot of the conversation at Frisco. You know, 0:16:57.760 --> 0:17:00.480 setting up a building a modern golf course for major 0:17:00.560 --> 0:17:04.800 championship is how do you regulate between those guys and 0:17:04.880 --> 0:17:07.159 the rest of the field. And you're just not constantly 0:17:07.200 --> 0:17:09.800 hammering the rest of the fielding giving them a free pass. 0:17:09.840 --> 0:17:12.240 But then if you're constantly hammering those guys, then the 0:17:12.280 --> 0:17:14.200 rest of the field gets a free pass. So you've 0:17:14.240 --> 0:17:16.200 got to mix it up in certain areas, and I 0:17:16.240 --> 0:17:20.400 think we're hopeful we got the yardage just about right 0:17:20.400 --> 0:17:24.320 where it allows every player to have at least be 0:17:24.400 --> 0:17:26.000 able to think about that question. 0:17:27.200 --> 0:17:33.199 You guys, when you do restoration historical renovation work, I 0:17:33.200 --> 0:17:38.680 think that's your word, historical renovation work, you typically try 0:17:38.720 --> 0:17:43.399 and find an era or a year to go back to. 0:17:43.760 --> 0:17:48.360 At Oakmont, where did you, guys land with that? How 0:17:48.520 --> 0:17:51.639 was the exercise of figuring out what to put back 0:17:51.720 --> 0:17:54.080 and what to model the golf course after. 0:17:54.720 --> 0:17:59.080 So we looked at it and we tried to figure out, all, right, 0:17:59.840 --> 0:18:03.080 the period when the phoneses were involved, whether it's HC 0:18:03.240 --> 0:18:06.199 or William would go win from nineteen oh three to 0:18:06.280 --> 0:18:08.719 nineteen forty seven, so you had forty four years of 0:18:08.920 --> 0:18:14.080 basically constant change and evolution, but the family was involved 0:18:14.080 --> 0:18:16.280 in that. So we looked at nineteen oh three to 0:18:16.400 --> 0:18:19.600 nineteen forty seven and we started to think, well, there's 0:18:19.640 --> 0:18:23.480 just no way to pick like a certain timeframe, like 0:18:23.560 --> 0:18:26.840 if you're dealing with a wingfoot or you know, Tillinghast 0:18:27.000 --> 0:18:28.959 was there to start. He came back and made modifications 0:18:28.960 --> 0:18:30.639 for the twenty nine US Open, and then that was 0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:33.960 pretty much it. So you've got you know, narrow windows 0:18:33.960 --> 0:18:36.600 George Thomas at LCC, et cetera, et cetera. Here you 0:18:36.680 --> 0:18:39.320 got forty four years of history with the original architects 0:18:39.359 --> 0:18:42.040 being involved. Probably Piner's Number two would be the only 0:18:42.119 --> 0:18:46.800 place where you'd have something somewhat similar or maybe national 0:18:46.800 --> 0:18:49.560 with McDonald. But you get to a place where we 0:18:49.640 --> 0:18:52.359 started to go, listen, we it might be best for 0:18:52.480 --> 0:18:55.960 us to figure out an eclectic eighteen and look at 0:18:56.000 --> 0:18:58.960 the first hole and say, in our opinion from a 0:18:59.000 --> 0:19:02.240 membership standpoint and also from a US open standpoint, the 0:19:02.280 --> 0:19:04.440 best version of the first so I'm just going to 0:19:04.520 --> 0:19:06.679 make updates because I don't remember what version it was, 0:19:06.720 --> 0:19:09.680 but it comes from the nineteen thirty seven aerial photograph, 0:19:09.720 --> 0:19:11.440 and the best version of the second hole came from 0:19:11.440 --> 0:19:15.040 the nineteen twenty seven plan, and on and on and on. 0:19:15.200 --> 0:19:18.639 So now you basically have the greatest hits or an 0:19:18.640 --> 0:19:23.520 eclectic eighteen of Pokemon. But the constant is the Phones 0:19:23.600 --> 0:19:27.400 family's involvement. Anything after forty seven we really didn't consider. 0:19:27.520 --> 0:19:29.920 So we took that to the. 0:19:29.880 --> 0:19:33.199 Membership, which is kind of an out there concept, and 0:19:33.240 --> 0:19:35.400 they embraced it. They really liked it, and we'll see. 0:19:35.440 --> 0:19:38.520 I mean, hopefully we were able to select the greatest 0:19:38.600 --> 0:19:41.280 hits versions of each hole that will provide a very 0:19:41.320 --> 0:19:43.480 comprehensive test in two weeks. 0:19:44.160 --> 0:19:48.960 Do you remember, by chance, offhand what the earliest hole 0:19:49.280 --> 0:19:50.840 and the latest hole were. 0:19:52.400 --> 0:19:54.719 I don't, but I do remember that a lot of 0:19:54.760 --> 0:19:58.080 the imagery for the greens came from very early on, 0:19:59.000 --> 0:20:02.919 early beans. And when we looked at the way that 0:20:02.960 --> 0:20:06.600 the tabletop nature of the greens and the putting surfaces 0:20:06.640 --> 0:20:08.959 and what they had evolved into kind of curled up 0:20:08.960 --> 0:20:12.399 on the edges from bunker sand and top dressing the 0:20:13.200 --> 0:20:16.239 imagery and really the only two greens that moved in 0:20:16.280 --> 0:20:19.600 that forty four year period were eight and sixteen, so 0:20:19.760 --> 0:20:23.080 you had basically consistency across the property. The only real 0:20:23.440 --> 0:20:26.040 consistent factor was for the green locations and the green 0:20:26.119 --> 0:20:29.760 pads themselves. So you looked at how can we take 0:20:29.840 --> 0:20:33.080 those back? And so the earliest images showed us the 0:20:33.080 --> 0:20:37.800 green complexes in great detail. I think the latest would 0:20:37.800 --> 0:20:38.960 have been the late thirties. 0:20:39.920 --> 0:20:45.280 What we're on the greens now? What are the kind 0:20:45.280 --> 0:20:49.080 of the new dynamics people should expect from Oakmont's greens? 0:20:49.119 --> 0:20:53.080 This year, and you know kind of where where did 0:20:53.080 --> 0:20:56.840 your work center on the greens on the edges. 0:20:56.880 --> 0:21:00.359 We didn't rebuild the greens. We basically expanded green and 0:21:00.440 --> 0:21:02.919 try to push them out into areas where they originally 0:21:02.960 --> 0:21:05.640 the footprint originally was. And then we took down all 0:21:05.680 --> 0:21:09.000 of the evolution the sand build up around the bunker edges, 0:21:09.040 --> 0:21:12.320 and now the greens flow right into the bunkers. So 0:21:13.440 --> 0:21:16.160 if you used to be the only sort of respite 0:21:16.200 --> 0:21:18.280 as it related to the putting surfaces was around the 0:21:18.400 --> 0:21:21.400 edges because balls would feedback in, and now everything if 0:21:21.440 --> 0:21:24.840 the gravity and if the slope of the green is 0:21:25.200 --> 0:21:28.399 sloping towards the bunkers, the ball will go towards the bunkers. 0:21:28.440 --> 0:21:30.480 Whether it will get in or hang up in the fringe, 0:21:30.480 --> 0:21:34.280 I don't know. But now the edges are back in play. 0:21:34.280 --> 0:21:36.320 It's a lot of the same concept we talked about 0:21:36.320 --> 0:21:38.920 as Southern hills, where you had to start to really 0:21:38.960 --> 0:21:41.680 respect and almost fear of the edges of the greens, 0:21:41.680 --> 0:21:46.040 whereas before they were your comfort zone to play balls 0:21:46.080 --> 0:21:48.800 into it. So I think seeing the way the greens 0:21:48.840 --> 0:21:51.760 relate with the surrounds is very very different. And then 0:21:51.800 --> 0:21:55.200 also the expanded areas allowed us some opportunity to create 0:21:55.280 --> 0:21:59.639 new hole locations because by going into those areas, we 0:21:59.640 --> 0:22:02.360 weren't really touching areas where the Oakmont membership had ever 0:22:02.400 --> 0:22:05.680 putted before because it was rough or it was bunker edge, 0:22:05.680 --> 0:22:08.040 and so we could flatten those areas and get them 0:22:08.080 --> 0:22:11.040 to a place where and frequently they flattened out on 0:22:11.080 --> 0:22:12.960 their own because the tie in from the green slope 0:22:12.960 --> 0:22:15.480 into the bunker edge was And so we've now I 0:22:15.560 --> 0:22:17.720 think you're going to see some whole locations I would 0:22:17.800 --> 0:22:22.840 say on average, and I don't know where they are, 0:22:22.880 --> 0:22:25.040 but you know, a lot of the conversations with the USGA, 0:22:25.119 --> 0:22:29.600 I think probably two new whole locations per green for 0:22:29.880 --> 0:22:32.639 during the four championship rounds. So I think they're going 0:22:32.720 --> 0:22:34.480 to look at a lot of that new flexibility and 0:22:34.560 --> 0:22:34.879 use it. 0:22:36.000 --> 0:22:39.440 Are there a couple new sections of particular greens that 0:22:39.520 --> 0:22:41.080 you are most fond of? 0:22:42.320 --> 0:22:44.119