Speaker 1: Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg podcast
Speaker 1: and our Superintendent series. This podcast is brought to you
Speaker 1: by Toro. Those big agricultural tractors you see working on
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Speaker 1: local Toro distributor to schedule a demo. This episode of
Speaker 1: our Superintendent series features Culver military Academy superintendent Michael Vessely.
Speaker 1: Michael has been at Culver a few years now. It's
Speaker 1: a little known nine hole course in central Indiana, but
Speaker 1: it is one of the best nine hole courses in
Speaker 1: the world. Very few people know about it. The play
Speaker 1: is pretty restricted. Only people that can really play it
Speaker 1: are alumni, faculty, and students at Culver. Michael has been
Speaker 1: working on this Langford Moreau course for a few years
Speaker 1: and recently, in talking to one of his crew members,
Speaker 1: he learned about some old tea boxes. So Culver was
Speaker 1: originally planned for twenty seven holes by langor Moreau, but
Speaker 1: you know, they built nine, like they did with many
Speaker 1: courses back then. And now this has led Michael on
Speaker 1: a little bit of a historical deep dive looking for
Speaker 1: remnants of the other holes that could have possibly accompanied
Speaker 1: these teas. So I went out. It's it's about two
Speaker 1: hours from Chicago, and Michael and I walked around the
Speaker 1: woods for a couple hours looking for greens teas. Found
Speaker 1: something that might look might look like a green. We'll see,
Speaker 1: we'll see if we can find out more in the future.
Speaker 1: But Michael, we talked about his career as well as
Speaker 1: Langford Moreau maintaining Culver and the historical dive that he's
Speaker 1: on and and what he's uncovering and the whole process. So,
Speaker 1: without further ado, here's Michael Vesily and I hope everybody
Speaker 1: had a happy and safe holidays. I miss the green
Speaker 1: for example. I'm already up set. When I find my
Speaker 1: ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. And when I
Speaker 1: find my.
Speaker 2: Ball in a brid egg Friday egg, the dreaded Frida
Speaker 2: egg Frida, egg Frida, egg bri egg Frida egg bride
Speaker 2: egg Lie, I'm about ready to run off.
Speaker 1: Of the hump. What when you were a kid, what
Speaker 1: subjects were your best at in school?
Speaker 2: Uh? Math for sure, and uh that's probably my best one.
Speaker 2: Uh and science as well.
Speaker 1: Science, Yeah that makes sense for a Yeah, yeah, we
Speaker 1: were you good at history?
Speaker 2: Uh? I was interested in history for sure and still
Speaker 2: still am. But uh yeah, I guess it wasn't one
Speaker 2: of my best subjects, but it interests.
Speaker 1: Me now now you find yourself immersed in a historical
Speaker 1: deep dive.
Speaker 2: Correct, Yeah, it's it's been interesting.
Speaker 1: So you're at Culvert. It's a famous military school, world
Speaker 1: renowned and it has nine hole golf course. Lang for
Speaker 1: Moreau that relatively untouched, pretty much untouched except for a
Speaker 1: couple of things, maybe restored. You came in mid restoration.
Speaker 1: But tell us a little bit about the last couple
Speaker 1: of weeks and what's how you've gotten on. You've found
Speaker 1: some tea boxes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the last couple of weeks, like I said, have
Speaker 2: been interesting. I was we were out cutting up a
Speaker 2: tree that had blown over, and there's a gentleman that
Speaker 2: works here that's been employed with the Academy for thirty
Speaker 2: five years, and he just nonchalantly mentions there was a
Speaker 2: tea box underneath our current maintenance building. And you know,
Speaker 2: I looked at him puzzled, like you know what you
Speaker 2: talk about? And he's like, there was a tea box.
Speaker 2: I used to mow until they built the new maintenance building,
Speaker 2: along with a few others that are out on the property,
Speaker 2: which got me to looking into what else was out there.
Speaker 2: And I've recently started digging into the old it's called
Speaker 2: the Vedet. It was the Culvert Academy publication that's been
Speaker 2: ongoing since the late eighteen hundreds, and just looking at
Speaker 2: articles to see if there were other holes that were
Speaker 2: built or what else is out there? So it's taken
Speaker 2: me on an interesting trip so far.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was the length from a Roe plan. They
Speaker 1: designed twenty seven holes for the military Academy. It's long
Speaker 1: been believed that they only built the nine correct, and
Speaker 1: so you've been diving in would have been the interesting
Speaker 1: I mean, one of the beautiful things with it being
Speaker 1: in a.
Speaker 2: School is the paper exactly.
Speaker 1: Not a lot of courses had this their own like
Speaker 1: essentially publication, right right, So you've started to read what
Speaker 1: what are some interesting things that you've found that maybe
Speaker 1: push you one way or push you the other way.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I've started I've gotten to as early as
Speaker 2: nineteen twenty one where golf was becoming popular in this area.
Speaker 2: According to the paper, it was the new sport, the
Speaker 2: new sport from Europe, and uh was was catching on.
Speaker 2: They called it. I've read a few articles where they
Speaker 2: called it the golf bug was catching on and uh
Speaker 2: and Culver is proud of is proud of its athletic
Speaker 2: prowess and and uh uh you know, fielding a lot
Speaker 2: of a lot of sports and athletics, and they uh
Speaker 2: wanted to get into golf. So there was, uh, there
Speaker 2: was a lot of talking in early twenties. Obviously of
Speaker 2: of a golf course, they used the Max and Cookie
Speaker 2: UH country clubs what it was called UH. Then it
Speaker 2: seemed like from what I've read, they used that to
Speaker 2: play golf UH from time to time, and I wasn't
Speaker 2: a set schedule or anything. They just would call it
Speaker 2: local schools. They even played Notre Dame for many years,
Speaker 2: the university the university UH. After later on on they
Speaker 2: would just play the freshman Notre Dame team, but they
Speaker 2: played the university Notre Dame golf team. They played Valparaiso
Speaker 2: University golf team, I've read. So it was just, you know,
Speaker 2: the sport was catching on, I think, and it just
Speaker 2: it grew and grew and and Culver always wanted the
Speaker 2: finest for their cadets. And that's where the Culver family
Speaker 2: decided to build the golf course. I mentioned to you
Speaker 2: that they found three firms that they that were drawing
Speaker 2: up plans for the course. Now I've yet to find
Speaker 2: out who the other two firms were. Obviously one of
Speaker 2: them had to have been Langford and Moreau. So it's
Speaker 2: that was an interesting tibit I found. The other thing
Speaker 2: was there there was there's not a lot of mention
Speaker 2: of extra holes after nineteen twenty four until you get
Speaker 2: to nineteen thirty two where there was mention in an
Speaker 2: article that they wanted to expand the course to an
Speaker 2: eighteen whole course. So originally twenty seven.
Speaker 1: The time to considering, yeah, eighteen expansion right.
Speaker 2: Right, because you know, figure the depression. I know enrollment
Speaker 2: was down after the depression, but you know for there
Speaker 2: there was there's a mention in an article of expanding
Speaker 2: it then. So you know, those those are probably the
Speaker 2: most interesting things I found so far. Now I'm just
Speaker 2: getting into it so that there's a long way to
Speaker 2: go to figure out where these tea boxes came from,
Speaker 2: why they're here, and if anything else was ever done.
Speaker 1: Obviously the golf community it I think one of the
Speaker 1: amazing things that Twitter has done is for your profession,
Speaker 1: is that it connects you with all these different people.
Speaker 1: Talk about a little bit how Twitter and the ability
Speaker 1: to you know, you had conversations with all these people
Speaker 1: that have been either that can relate to this or
Speaker 1: lend expertise in different areas for this to talk a
Speaker 1: little bit about you know, who you've connected with and
Speaker 1: where how they've kind of helped you push you into
Speaker 1: certain directions on your kind of history hunt here.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, Twitter has been great for me personally for
Speaker 2: agonomic reasons. First, I was not, you know, an architect
Speaker 2: junkie before I came here. I was more into turf
Speaker 2: than architecture until I saw this place and it piqued
Speaker 2: my interest. And obviously being here, a lot of people
Speaker 2: have in that arena have contacted me because they're interested
Speaker 2: in culver. So it has lent itself to a pretty
Speaker 2: big network of architect fans and people who are well
Speaker 2: more equipped at digging into history than I have. Now
Speaker 2: I have connected with with Sean Tolley at Metal Club
Speaker 2: via Twitter, uh and then we we spent five days
Speaker 2: at a it was called the Superintendent's Retreat Mindfulness Retreat.
Speaker 2: It was at Prince Edward Island and UH in Canada,
Speaker 2: and him and I were both selected. So I was
Speaker 2: able to spend four or five days with Sean in
Speaker 2: a beautiful setting and and we we talked a lot, uh,
Speaker 2: not just about golf, but a lot of things. But
Speaker 2: you know, when one evening he broke out his his
Speaker 2: hard drive with all his findings he had, which was
Speaker 2: just incredible, but since in the last couple of weeks, Uh,
Speaker 2: you know, interest has perked up in in what I'm
Speaker 2: finding out here, and we had a we had a
Speaker 2: very good conversation uh this past weekend. Uh. He's he's
Speaker 2: coaching me on on how to do things and where
Speaker 2: to do things and where to look, and so it's
Speaker 2: been he's been a great asset in this journey so far.
Speaker 1: What type of stuff has he been recommending, because obviously
Speaker 1: you're at the beginning of this, like, you know, what
Speaker 1: type of you know, research methods was he suggesting that
Speaker 1: you might not have thought of.
Speaker 2: Well, Well, one good thing, as you mentioned, is we
Speaker 2: have in archives here at the Academy, so that I'm
Speaker 2: lucky in that respect, is that I've got all these newspapers.
Speaker 2: Plus there are things over there. Communications between Culver and
Speaker 2: whomever we may be looking for are over there, along
Speaker 2: with photos. So the paper is a good start, and
Speaker 2: then the photos and everything else that's at our museum
Speaker 2: is going to be another deep dive. But one interesting
Speaker 2: thing he mentioned was to find photographers that took pictures
Speaker 2: back then. He has found out there a family that
Speaker 2: has been in photography since the twenties and the family
Speaker 2: has just carried it on and he would he would
Speaker 2: find photos with the name of the of the family
Speaker 2: at the bottom, and then he would contact the the
Speaker 2: current family members and say, hey, do you have photos
Speaker 2: from and uh, they at first they didn't think that
Speaker 2: they did, and Sean showed them a picture of of
Speaker 2: I think it might have been Cyprus that had their
Speaker 2: name on it. So they looked into it and sure
Speaker 2: enough they had photos of golf courses back then, back
Speaker 2: in the twenties. So that that was an interesting idea
Speaker 2: to find out photographers and if there's a family lineage
Speaker 2: of photographers still around. And one interesting thing. The other
Speaker 2: interesting thing was to go to postcard shows to find
Speaker 2: people that have postcards from you know, and he's he's like,
Speaker 2: you never know where it leads or where it can go.
Speaker 2: I mean he's he's made connections that way. So it's
Speaker 2: it's a it's going to be interesting. I'm looking for
Speaker 2: or to dig it in a little further.
Speaker 1: So next step is to get really deep into archives.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the next step, and you know, you get
Speaker 2: track down some I mentioned IRV Nelson, who is the
Speaker 2: golf pro here in the twenties, to try and track
Speaker 2: down his family lineagency. If there's children around that may
Speaker 2: have some things from from then you know, there's just
Speaker 2: so many ways you can go. It's it'll be like
Speaker 2: I said, interesting.
Speaker 1: What I mean in say you're you go down this
Speaker 1: rabbit hole, like what would be you know, dream scenario
Speaker 1: for you.
Speaker 2: Well, a dream scenario maybe to find a green pad maybe,
Speaker 2: But you know, I'm really not. I really haven't thought
Speaker 2: that far ahead. I just it's more of a historical
Speaker 2: thing to find out what happened when and what changed
Speaker 2: and why they you know, I'm sure when I get
Speaker 2: as I mentioned, when we get to the Second World War,
Speaker 2: that's probably when things were just like you know, done.
Speaker 2: But we're I'm at a point now, like I said,
Speaker 2: with nineteen thirty two to the forties, you know what
Speaker 2: what transpired, So you know, more of historical reference for
Speaker 2: me now than I don't. I don't believe they'd ever
Speaker 2: expand the place or make another nine holes or anything
Speaker 2: like that. It's just more of a you know, this
Speaker 2: is this is what I found, and you know, we're
Speaker 2: finding some pretty neat things.
Speaker 1: You just mentioned you weren't really into architecture. You ain't
Speaker 1: got here, ton't know a ton about it. How how
Speaker 1: is your you know, you're really into turf, how is
Speaker 1: your turf? I guess in presentation and style of maintenance
Speaker 1: changed as you've started to understand more about the history
Speaker 1: and uh and the architecture behind the golf course.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's shame change a lot. It's made me, made
Speaker 2: me think more about the things we're doing out here,
Speaker 2: looking at more, trying to present the course in in
Speaker 2: the the intent of the architect That's that's where it's changed.
Speaker 2: I've I've definitely become more minimalistic in our approach, trying
Speaker 2: to use less and just just use what's here and
Speaker 2: you know, maintain it to a high standard, but looking
Speaker 2: for more role looking for more playing slopes instead of
Speaker 2: the you know, sixty degree flop shot to look at.
Speaker 2: You know, how can we maintain this area, firmer, How
Speaker 2: can we improve our mo lines to bring in bunkers
Speaker 2: that were intended to be hazards for balls to roll into?
Speaker 2: Which is that that's been this past season was was
Speaker 2: a big goal of mine, was to try and improve
Speaker 2: our mo lines to incord greate these plateaus that lang
Speaker 2: are built that are you know, just amazing plateaus that
Speaker 2: that have so many features that I want to enhance
Speaker 2: those features and just bring more of a of a
Speaker 2: ground game back to which was the intention of this
Speaker 2: golf course for sure when it was built, and you
Speaker 2: can tell you can see the you can see the
Speaker 2: slopes and where balls were meant to go, so that
Speaker 2: the minimalistic part and and trying to firm things up,
Speaker 2: and it has changed a lot my philosophy on on
Speaker 2: turf management for sure.
Speaker 1: How have you gone obviously your nine hole course, small crew,
Speaker 1: not the big world's biggest budget and uh, you know
Speaker 1: the one nice thing you don't have a ton of play,
Speaker 1: But like, how have you gone about the expansions? What
Speaker 1: what strategy have you gone to achieve? Getting are with.
Speaker 2: Well, we have the nineteen thirty nine aerial which which
Speaker 2: helps bring in some lines. But you know, I've I've
Speaker 2: talked to a couple people, Sean Tully's been one, David Normoyle.
Speaker 2: I've communicated a lot with him in the last year
Speaker 2: and a half about intent of molins. How greens that
Speaker 2: were built in the Golden Age were considered the head
Speaker 2: of the golf hole and the approaches were the shoulders,
Speaker 2: which is why not just the neck So.
Speaker 1: Isn't it funny how everything got necked in?
Speaker 2: Yeah, smaller it is, it is, and it and it
Speaker 2: definitely during the restoration they widened the approaches out immensely,
Speaker 2: but they didn't bring the bunkers in that sit front
Speaker 2: inside of the greens. So that's such a.
Speaker 1: Good way to describe it.
Speaker 2: Like the shoulder when David said that it was like
Speaker 2: a light went off, I'm like, I see it now.
Speaker 2: And he's got like a really great way of describing
Speaker 2: It's fantastic.
Speaker 1: He's like one of the best communicators. Yes ever, mat.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, I mean every I could show you the
Speaker 2: text message. I mean it's just like he says things
Speaker 2: and I'm just like that's perfect. Yeah, that's perfect. Couldn't
Speaker 2: set any better. And like the shoulders, I mean the
Speaker 2: light went off, I'm like, I see it. I saw it.
Speaker 2: You know, I could drive around. I say, I see
Speaker 2: what he was I see what he means when he
Speaker 2: says that. And we were doing this when the US
Speaker 2: Women's Open was at the Country Club of Charleston this year,
Speaker 2: So we were talking during that and you could see
Speaker 2: a lot of I could visualize that from that course
Speaker 2: what he was talking about. The wide shoulders in the
Speaker 2: and the Greens were just the head of it. So
Speaker 2: you want to bring you want to bring all those
Speaker 2: characteristics into the hole. Uh And as see George Waters mentions,
Speaker 2: you you want you don't want to separate good shots
Speaker 2: from bad shots. You want to separate good shots from
Speaker 2: great shots. So your ball will which you saw at
Speaker 2: the President's Cup, it can roll, you know, if you're
Speaker 2: off you know, a yard or two, it's going to
Speaker 2: go into a bunker, or it could roll next to
Speaker 2: the pin. I mean, it's just that that was that
Speaker 2: was my intent of changing the MOE lines around the
Speaker 2: Greens this year.
Speaker 1: That President's Cup was pretty unbelievable to watch.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, crazy crazy good.
Speaker 1: I imagine from like a URF perspective, that was like
Speaker 1: a dream to watch. Yeah, you know, especially when you're
Speaker 1: you're starting to really bellie, Oh, I need to do
Speaker 1: this for the firmer and faster, for these reasons, and
Speaker 1: you know, uh, then you have this event that I
Speaker 1: imagine just affirmed your thoughts more.
Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely absolutely. And they you know, no doubt they
Speaker 2: have an advantage with the with the soil condition as
Speaker 2: they have there and and all of that. Jazz I
Speaker 2: mean that they they can do those sort of things
Speaker 2: that we can get close to to stuff like that.
Speaker 2: We're here at culvert, we're at heavy clay soil, so
Speaker 2: it's it's hard to dry it out too much because
Speaker 2: you lose turf when that happens. So but it definitely
Speaker 2: reaffirms a ground game more interesting, more fun. Seemed like
Speaker 2: to me to be able to play slopes and play
Speaker 2: angles and and things of that nature too, to enhance
Speaker 2: the game and make it more fun, I think for
Speaker 2: for everyone, not not just the best players, but I
Speaker 2: think that would that would be more fun for everyone.
Speaker 2: But one thing I noticed too while watching it is
Speaker 2: is their mode lines and how they incorporated all their
Speaker 2: bunkering around greens, which was the intent of the bunker.
Speaker 2: The ball was, you know, a misshot was supposed to
Speaker 2: go into the bunker, not roll down three inch rough
Speaker 2: and stop, which is what we were dealing with here.
Speaker 2: So you know, to see to see roll Melbourne's bunkering
Speaker 2: in their close mode all the way around, you know,
Speaker 2: except on the backsides where they let the rough go,
Speaker 2: just kind of reaffirmed what we're trying to do here.
Speaker 2: So it was it was really fun to watch.
Speaker 1: And there are you know, there there are some similarities,
Speaker 1: Like obviously Melbourne the soil is completely different, but you know,
Speaker 1: you've got large, undulating greens that have a lot of
Speaker 1: slopes around them that that make positioning extremely You can
Speaker 1: be in really good positions one day and really bad
Speaker 1: positions the next day. Just thinking about the golf course,
Speaker 1: and I think it's obviously you know Langford Moreau where
Speaker 1: their greens were severe greens, and their surrounds were very
Speaker 1: difficult with big, bold bunkering right, you know, and and
Speaker 1: that in a way obviously the soils couldn't be more different,
Speaker 1: but the architecture behind them and the intent was very
Speaker 1: similar in terms of technically, how have you been going
Speaker 1: about your fairway expansions, Like is it a mowdown, is
Speaker 1: it a sod? What have How have you been trying
Speaker 1: to approach them right now?
Speaker 2: It's just we've just slowly been mowing them down. And
Speaker 2: you had blue grass, Uh yeah, I mean we got
Speaker 2: everything out here. I mean it's it's the hodgepodge of grasses.
Speaker 2: There's a lot more bent grass out here than I
Speaker 2: originally thought, so it's a lot of the area. I'm
Speaker 2: kind of just following where the bent grass takes me
Speaker 2: in some areas, but it basically what we've done is
Speaker 2: mowed them down, started sanding them top, dressing them more,
Speaker 2: you know, some some growth regulators to try and promote
Speaker 2: the turf that we want. Uh yeah, aating more overseating.
Speaker 1: How many how many times a year are you aerating
Speaker 1: the areas you're trying to expand?
Speaker 2: Well this well this was our first season, so we
Speaker 2: we did them twice, uh and and and more sand.
Speaker 2: I mean that's just as kind of uh simple as that,
Speaker 2: you know, just trying to firm them up, get what
Speaker 2: we want, get the grass we want to grow going there,
Speaker 2: I I I'm trying.
Speaker 1: You have this hodgepodge of grasses. When you aerate and
Speaker 1: sand you know, for the layman, what what is it doing?
Speaker 2: Uh Well, we're we're firming the surface up, trying to
Speaker 2: get rid of the clay on top basically so we
Speaker 2: can get better drainage and just promote it gives a
Speaker 2: good base for the bent grass that we're trying to promote.
Speaker 2: We've done it. We've done it well on our greens.
Speaker 2: Our greens were never sanded for eighty years, so in
Speaker 2: the last five years. Uh, we've we've added about a
Speaker 2: three inch layer of sand into the profile of our greens,
Speaker 2: which is obviously furn them up. They drain fairly well,
Speaker 2: and it's just it's just uh, a better environment for
Speaker 2: the rest to grow, so that we're taking that same
Speaker 2: philosophy out to the surrounds and the fairways. So it's
Speaker 2: it's not anything big or extravagant, it's just it takes time.
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Speaker 1: has there been any pushback from the people that've played
Speaker 1: here forever about the expanded areas?
Speaker 2: No pushback, No pushback. It's uh, actually not a lot
Speaker 2: of people have even commented on it. You know. It's
Speaker 2: just you know, we get visitors from time to time
Speaker 2: that are into architecture, into lang from Moreau that and
Speaker 2: and they comment about it, how they'd like to see
Speaker 2: more of it, you know, expanded, more, more short grass.
Speaker 2: But as far as you know, the school's team or faculty,
Speaker 2: I don't get a lot of feedback about it, which
Speaker 2: is one of the downsides to not you know, those
Speaker 2: are the only people that can play here. Yeah, it
Speaker 2: was it was you know, brought it. I questioned that
Speaker 2: before I took the job of what, you know, what
Speaker 2: was going to motivate me to keep going because I
Speaker 2: don't get daily comments about you know, the this was
Speaker 2: bad or this was good or you know that everyone hears,
Speaker 2: but you know, it's just the feedback I really get
Speaker 2: is probably on Twitter and and you know from a
Speaker 2: visitors that come and play.
Speaker 1: So yeah, talk about talk about that you know, there's
Speaker 1: about two thousand a year played.
Speaker 2: I would say, yeah, that's yes, that's high. That's probably high, okay,
Speaker 2: But so.
Speaker 1: It's one of the lowest played golf. It's and for
Speaker 1: those wondering, I mean, one of the best nine hole
Speaker 1: courses in the world, without a doubt. I put it
Speaker 1: up there with any anywhere. But that's any nine hole
Speaker 1: golf course. I mean, it's it's one of the best
Speaker 1: courses of the Midwest. Uh. Do you have trouble with
Speaker 1: motivation ever? Without having like you know that so far?
Speaker 2: No, because there's there's been an ergonomic challenge since I started.
Speaker 2: The greens were like walking on a mattress when I started,
Speaker 2: and I and you know, people say that, you know, jokingly,
Speaker 2: but they really were. So that was just from eighty
Speaker 2: years top dressed. Yeah, nothing, very spongy, very spongy, I mean, thatchy.
Speaker 2: I walked on the fourth green was the first green
Speaker 2: ever walked on, and I'm just like, my gosh, what's
Speaker 2: going on here? But so there was the challenge of
Speaker 2: you know, bringing those back and they had just started
Speaker 2: expanding them out to where they are now. So we
Speaker 2: had a lot of thin areas and and they you know,
Speaker 2: they just didn't look very good at that time. So that,
Speaker 2: you know, that was a challenge and I knew it
Speaker 2: would be, and that that definitely kept me motivated. And
Speaker 2: luckily the other the other members of the crew were
Speaker 2: just as eager to make it, to make it better.
Speaker 2: So you know, we're at a point now where pretty
Speaker 2: satisfied with the way our greens are reacting throughout the
Speaker 2: summer now. So you know, there's just different areas that
Speaker 2: I get to focus on. I I when I took
Speaker 2: the job, I assumed it'd be ten years or so
Speaker 2: before it was actually you know where I thought it
Speaker 2: should be, you know, because they didn't they didn't reced
Speaker 2: or redo the fairways. They redid a couple of tea boxes,
Speaker 2: but everything was just what's been here for one hundred years.
Speaker 2: So it was just gonna be on us to make
Speaker 2: it fit what they wanted to do. So that's that's
Speaker 2: a challenge enough. And then you know we focus. I'm
Speaker 2: lucky that we focus on the boys season in the
Speaker 2: spring and the girls season in the in the fall.
Speaker 2: The summer's kind of slow here because of our summer camp.
Speaker 2: We have six week summer camp from about the third
Speaker 2: week of June to the beginning of August, so the
Speaker 2: course is closed during the week all day until they're
Speaker 2: done with their camp classes. So you know, we get
Speaker 2: to have a little downtime in the summer, which is.
Speaker 1: What do you do in those those days we're here.
Speaker 2: I mean we we we do our mowing in the
Speaker 2: morning and then we you know, it's a three man true,
Speaker 2: okay and including me, so it's very busy to get
Speaker 2: everything done that we try to get done for three people.
Speaker 2: It's probably the busiest I've ever been, but it's not
Speaker 2: a stressed out busy, you know, you just you go
Speaker 2: from one job to the next, so it you know,
Speaker 2: it takes two of us to mow and roll greens
Speaker 2: every day while the other guys mow and rough are
Speaker 2: moving tea markers or you know, it's just a it's
Speaker 2: a busy time during the summer. But we just don't
Speaker 2: have a play that you normally would to get around.
Speaker 2: I mean we're getting around most most times. The kids
Speaker 2: during their classes are either playing this four holes the
Speaker 2: one through four or they're on five through nine. So
Speaker 2: we always have a place where we can we can
Speaker 2: go and find projects to do and things of that nature.
Speaker 2: So you know, it's we're not working around people, but
Speaker 2: it's still it's still busy.
Speaker 1: What uh, what what were you doing before this this job?
Speaker 2: What was it?
Speaker 1: What? What? What course were you working at?
Speaker 2: I was at Blackthorne in South Bend for three years
Speaker 2: as he's assistant. I started out, was that was that
Speaker 2: private or it's a public public golf course? Yeah? Very busy,
Speaker 2: very busy. I mean, uh, you know, one hundred and
Speaker 2: fifty two hundred rounds a day. I started at a
Speaker 2: at a growing actually at a course in my hometown
Speaker 2: in North Jutson. The course is called Chesapeake Crown. It's
Speaker 2: still there. The owner of the golf course I grew
Speaker 2: up playing was building a course in my home town,
Speaker 2: and I was I I went to college for a year,
Speaker 2: didn't know what I wanted to do. So I just
Speaker 2: started working worked a couple odds and in his jobs,
Speaker 2: and and he said he was building a golf course.
Speaker 2: And I'm like, all right, I'll you know, I'll help
Speaker 2: you out. I need, you know, summer job or whatever.
Speaker 2: So so we started, uh when they were constructing that
Speaker 2: grew it in and I just kind of fell in
Speaker 2: love with turf at that point, I mean, it just
Speaker 2: amazed me where it was and then what it went to, uh,
Speaker 2: as far as turf and greens and and so I
Speaker 2: just really got interested, really got intrigued by the profession,
Speaker 2: and just worked my tail off there. I stayed there
Speaker 2: for two or three years. I didn't have the title
Speaker 2: of the assistant, but that's pretty much what I was.
Speaker 2: The superintendent left after three years and and they just
Speaker 2: asked me to take over. So I did. And during
Speaker 2: that time, I went back to school, did the Penn
Speaker 2: State Turf the online program, got my bachelor's degree. Uh.
Speaker 2: And then at the end of way eighth nine, when
Speaker 2: the recession started, Uh, we had just or the Chesapeake
Speaker 2: had just started building a housing development.
Speaker 1: Boy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so think so the golf course started supporting everything
Speaker 2: and financially struggled. Uh. And and you could tell. I mean,
Speaker 2: you know, I could tell. So I just started looking,
Speaker 2: you know, I got to find something, you know. But
Speaker 2: I had never been the assistant, you know, at a
Speaker 2: bigger club or you know, so I always thought that
Speaker 2: that may need, I may need to do something like that,
Speaker 2: just to see and I send it out resumes for
Speaker 2: assistance jobs and you know, the feedback was you don't
Speaker 2: have enough experience at other places or even though you
Speaker 2: were the heads superintendent course right right, and you know,
Speaker 2: and some people were like, you know, what are you doing?
Speaker 2: Why are you you know, doing it this way? And
Speaker 2: I'm just like, I just want to I just want
Speaker 2: to get experienced. I want to know if I know
Speaker 2: what I think I know, you know, and if I
Speaker 2: could do it at a place like that. And the
Speaker 2: funny thing was is that I got two interviews in
Speaker 2: nine One was at Augusta Wow for a turf position
Speaker 2: and the other was at Oakmont with John Zimmers. So
Speaker 2: I my family had had a nine month old at
Speaker 2: the time, but we drove out to Pittsburgh and I
Speaker 2: got to interview with John and drive Oakmont and look around.
Speaker 2: They were preparing for the twenty ten US Women's Open then,
Speaker 2: so that.
Speaker 1: Probably that was probably like right when they were cutting
Speaker 1: down trees at night.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think it was. It was, yeah, during
Speaker 2: that But that was I mean, that was incredible. That
Speaker 2: was a fun trip. And then the Augusta interview was
Speaker 2: just on the phone, but I'd talked to their first
Speaker 2: assistant for a good hour hour and a half on
Speaker 2: the phone, who's basically the superintendent of the course, takes
Speaker 2: care of the maintenance. But uh, and then I I
Speaker 2: got an interview at Point of Woods as well with
Speaker 2: Ron Fox there. So there was a few people that
Speaker 2: understood what I was trying to do. High end private club,
Speaker 2: yeah yeah.
Speaker 1: But then the local courses.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's not much movement. It's just not much movement
Speaker 2: around here. But the but Blackthorn, John Quickstad, who's the
Speaker 2: superintendent Blackthorn, has been since it was constructed, you know,
Speaker 2: he he wanted, uh a good player on his team,
Speaker 2: so hungry, yeah, learn yeah, yeah, so I went there.
Speaker 2: It's a high end public what did they hosted the
Speaker 2: Semetric Tour, the Four Wins Tournament?
Speaker 1: Did this fall in like what? Well, leaving Oakmont? Was
Speaker 1: that something that you're seriously considering moving?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: For yeah, and I was this coincide around the same time? Yeah,
Speaker 1: and then a place where you didn't have to move
Speaker 1: right correct now?
Speaker 2: I yeah, the housing market was pretty bad at that time,
Speaker 2: So I think considering all that, the job opened up
Speaker 2: at at Blackthorn, and I, you know, I took it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I don't think a lot of people
Speaker 1: would question, right, you know it was.
Speaker 2: Now it was an hour drive from my home each way,
Speaker 2: so which you know, to me is a long way.
Speaker 2: But you know that I had to consider that there
Speaker 2: was a time change Eastern time to Central time. That's
Speaker 2: so strange, is crazy? Yeah, it is, especially when you're
Speaker 2: working at four thirty or five in the morning. I
Speaker 2: live in Central Time and work in Eastern Time, so
Speaker 2: five o'clock start time at work is four o'clock at
Speaker 2: my house. And when you had an hour drive, I mean,
Speaker 2: can you know I was leaving it waking up at
Speaker 2: two thirty in the morning and leaving it three just
Speaker 2: to get to work. So it it It became sort
Speaker 2: of an issue after a few years. Yeah, I was.
Speaker 2: My wife said I was a walking zombie just because Yeah,
Speaker 2: and I had two kids at that time then, so.
Speaker 1: I had to make it hard on her too.
Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, the hours have to be tough with kids. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it is, it is, and that that's what made Culver
Speaker 2: so interesting. But that that was a challenge then, I
Speaker 2: mean it was, but the commute made a lot of it.
Speaker 2: I mean, if I if I didn't have to drive
Speaker 2: so far, it would have been better. I mean, we
Speaker 2: weren't burning the midnight oil at Blackthorn. I mean it
Speaker 2: was it was a pretty typical, uh maintenance job, but uh,
Speaker 2: you know, the drive and the and the time change
Speaker 2: and things like that made it made it very difficult.
Speaker 2: And that's where Culver came in for me.
Speaker 1: So going from somewhere with like heavy heavy play to
Speaker 1: hear where very light play. You know, what was the
Speaker 1: biggest kind of shock in terms of of your the
Speaker 1: way you looked at your job there and like how
Speaker 1: much it changed.
Speaker 2: Well, obviously it changed a lot. I mean we're not
Speaker 2: we're not working around people a lot. But I don't
Speaker 2: know if it was the biggest shock or the or
Speaker 2: just a I don't know how to describe it, really
Speaker 2: just a relief from pressure. Not that I don't enjoy
Speaker 2: pressure of of performing, but having a golf course like this,
Speaker 2: being able to try certain things without you know, if
Speaker 2: if we have a poor area or something, it doesn't
Speaker 2: really affect whether people are going to come and play
Speaker 2: or not. You know, it's just kind of a kind
Speaker 2: of my own laboratory of trying different things in terrific
Speaker 2: in agronomy. So there was nothing really shocking of the change,
Speaker 2: but more of a stress level went down, and and
Speaker 2: uh the commute time went way down and just uh,
Speaker 2: just a big relief. Really, sleep went up, sleep went up,
Speaker 2: and uh, you know my wife was got her husband back.
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, we're.
Speaker 1: To talk about work life balance. I think I think
Speaker 1: I struggle with it personally. I think a lot of people.
Speaker 1: I think a lot of superintendents do because, like you,
Speaker 1: so early and right, the days are so long in
Speaker 1: the summer. Yes, yes, so you're you know, when you
Speaker 1: leave in the middle of the day, you're kind of
Speaker 1: leaving your job with well, stuff's still going on it, right.
Speaker 1: What how have you learned over the years to balance
Speaker 1: it better?
Speaker 2: Uh? The biggest thing I've learned is, and it might
Speaker 2: be cliche now, but it's that it's just grass and
Speaker 2: whether you're here eight hours or sixteen hours, it's not
Speaker 2: going to make that much of a difference in my opinion.
Speaker 2: Now i'm here, I don't I'm not. I don't have
Speaker 2: a Greens committee breathing down my neck or or the
Speaker 2: four members that are upset about it, you know, all
Speaker 2: over me. But to me now, now, work life balance
Speaker 2: is a struggle for a lot of people, for sure,
Speaker 2: And there's there's question on what what is that definition
Speaker 2: of balance? I mean, you know, or whether you're at
Speaker 2: home or work more or less. You know, I'm not
Speaker 2: sure where balance comes in, but you know, it's it's
Speaker 2: not the end of the world to leave after eight hours.
Speaker 2: In my opinion, if you can't get done in eight
Speaker 2: or ten hours what you need to get done in
Speaker 2: a day, then you know you might need to find
Speaker 2: another area to work at because I just that's just
Speaker 2: that's just my opinion. Yeah, I think you make you
Speaker 2: can make it work and have a home life as well.
Speaker 2: I truly believe that. Now it may not be where
Speaker 2: you're at. They may expect a little more, but I
Speaker 2: just think that and it comes with with I think
Speaker 2: it comes just with age and experience, and you know,
Speaker 2: you just you realize that if an area of a
Speaker 2: fairway dies that it you know, it's going to come back.
Speaker 2: It's all going to come back.
Speaker 1: It's it's interesting what you said about kind of being
Speaker 1: your lab no Greens committee breathing down your neck. And
Speaker 1: I think a lot about architecture and golf architects when
Speaker 1: they get to build stuff uninhibited, you know, it tends
Speaker 1: to be a little bit a little bit more wild,
Speaker 1: you know, a little bit more bold like you see.
Speaker 1: I think one that jumps to mind is Rob Collins
Speaker 1: became the architect and owner of Sweeten's Cove and he
Speaker 1: built some of the most audacious greens that we've seen
Speaker 1: in modern golf construction.
Speaker 2: And absolutely, you.
Speaker 1: Know, you can you can say, okay, well he didn't
Speaker 1: have an owner that he was appeasing, right, you know
Speaker 1: he as a superintendent, I don't have a greens committee
Speaker 1: that I'm appeasing. You know, you report to the academy,
Speaker 1: the university, and you know that not necessarily somebody that's
Speaker 1: really you know, day to day in the weeds on
Speaker 1: the grass, like and even club greens committees, right, a
Speaker 1: greens chair is very, very involved in the grass. And
Speaker 1: where would you would you say that that's been an
Speaker 1: advantageous for you as a superintendent.
Speaker 2: Well, definitely advantageous in that you can try things that
Speaker 2: you know if they fail, it's not you know, it's
Speaker 2: not going to really come back. You know, nobody's going
Speaker 2: to come and you know you're going to lose your
Speaker 2: job because this didn't this didn't work out this way
Speaker 2: the way you thought. So being in an educational institution
Speaker 2: is an advantage as well, because you know, we're always
Speaker 2: trying to improve what we're doing here and trying different
Speaker 2: things and environmentally or however you know, historically history too, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: definitely historically. I never, I hardly ever talk about Culver
Speaker 2: Golf Course without mentioning the Academy and tying the two
Speaker 2: together because the story both of them is just fantastic.
Speaker 2: I mean, there's a lot of history and some history
Speaker 2: I don't know for sure, but I just the stories
Speaker 2: you hear and things that I've read while researching the
Speaker 2: golf course have been fascinating too. So it's, uh, you know,
Speaker 2: it lends itself to be more free in trying things
Speaker 2: as far as like widening the fairways or widening the approaches.
Speaker 2: I'm very fortunate, and I know this, so I try
Speaker 2: not to tell too many people about about the job.
Speaker 2: But I'm very fortunate that I can do those things,
Speaker 2: and I understand a lot of people can't. And I
Speaker 2: often share things on Twitter that I know people can't
Speaker 2: try or do, or products that they you know, we
Speaker 2: tried to kill the poem on this fifth fairway this year.
Speaker 2: I know a lot of clubs can't do that, but
Speaker 2: I I share those things, hoping that you know, if
Speaker 2: others can see what it does and how it works,
Speaker 2: maybe they can sell it to their clubs, you know,
Speaker 2: things like that. So I try to I'll try to
Speaker 2: work with certain chemical companies or you know, I've offered
Speaker 2: Purdue University. You know, if you want to try something
Speaker 2: in a real golf setting, you know, let me know,
Speaker 2: contact me. We'll give it a shot, you know. So
Speaker 2: I'm trying to trying to help out as much as
Speaker 2: I can. But I'm very fortunate that I can do
Speaker 2: that for sure.
Speaker 1: What would be what would be next on your list?
Speaker 1: Say you get done with all the fairway expansions you
Speaker 1: really want to do in the next, say just two years,
Speaker 1: what do you have like a checklist that you're working down.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean with the expansions, I'm trying to improve
Speaker 2: our fairways. The Hodgepodge has been problematic because of the
Speaker 2: amount of Poeano graphs that we have in our airways.
Speaker 2: The summer months, they struggle. They struggle a lot sometimes,
Speaker 2: So improving the desirable turf stands in our fairways is
Speaker 2: kind of with the expansion is on the list. I mean,
Speaker 2: we're uh, as I mentioned we've we've tried a product
Speaker 2: that will kill Poeania in fairways, talked about adding a
Speaker 2: top dressing program to the fairways, trying to get more
Speaker 2: sand obviously on them. But that's kind of my next
Speaker 2: goal would be to get desirables, firm them up and
Speaker 2: and have them play the way they were meant to
Speaker 2: be played. So and and you know, obviously those are
Speaker 2: those are running into our greens and surrounds now as well,
Speaker 2: So it's kind of all tied in together.
Speaker 1: You've you've played a lot more golf this year than
Speaker 1: you had in years past, right, Yeah, what did that
Speaker 1: do to kind of from a professional standpoint, Well.
Speaker 2: It's always good to play your course, because.
Speaker 1: I remember when we met you hadn't played very much. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it'd been a long but twenty sixteen, Yeah, it.
Speaker 2: Had been a long time at that point. And working
Speaker 2: at Blackthorn, I didn't get to play a lot obviously
Speaker 2: because of the commute and and and having having kids
Speaker 2: and family and you know, all those other obligations take
Speaker 2: takes away from being able to play. But I made
Speaker 2: a commitment to play more. I just wanted to see
Speaker 2: how our course played, and I enjoyed playing golf. I
Speaker 2: mean I've started playing when I was twelve or thirteen
Speaker 2: years old, so it's it's it's always uh, it's always
Speaker 2: been there. It's just a time factor. And and you
Speaker 2: mentioned work life balance, and my wife was supportive of
Speaker 2: playing golf, you know, having time to myself and playing
Speaker 2: golf and enjoying the sport again. But it, you know,
Speaker 2: it you see different things than you would just walking
Speaker 2: the golf course for sure. You know, you see how
Speaker 2: things play, you can feel the ground, how you know
Speaker 2: where you might need to improve or remove something, or
Speaker 2: or you can see actually you know what things you've
Speaker 2: done that are right. You know. I remember playing a
Speaker 2: whole two where we've mowed down the face of the
Speaker 2: front bunker there and I was my shot was short
Speaker 2: and left of the bunker, and I remember looking at
Speaker 2: that shot saying, I got to get it over that
Speaker 2: face or you know, the ball's coming back down on
Speaker 2: the bunker. So I mean that's that's where I think
Speaker 2: the intent of Langford was was you got to hit
Speaker 2: the shot right or you're coming back in the bunker.
Speaker 2: So you know, it's seeing things like that you can say, okay,
Speaker 2: that's you know, I think we're doing that, right, because
Speaker 2: if I'm thinking about it, then then other golfers are
Speaker 2: going to think about that, you know, where to miss
Speaker 2: type of a shot.
Speaker 1: Yeah, talk a little bit about maintaining lang for Moreau.
Speaker 1: I know, I was that Harrison Hills, which is another lane,
Speaker 1: and I ran into the superintendent and we were walked
Speaker 1: and talked for a little while, and he was telling
Speaker 1: me how difficult it was with this with the slopes,
Speaker 1: and just how much of a struggle and how how
Speaker 1: frustrating it was really for him. And we're talking about,
Speaker 1: you know, two thousand and eighteen, you know, struggling, and yeah,
Speaker 1: you think about what what was it like maintaining in
Speaker 1: nineteen twenty twenty eight, right, you.
Speaker 2: Know, right exactly, And you know it is difficult. It's
Speaker 2: difficult to find the right piece of equipment to do
Speaker 2: it if there is one.
Speaker 1: And it's because of the steepness and.
Speaker 2: The steepness of the angle of the slope and which
Speaker 2: which is another interesting thing is that that got me
Speaker 2: to thinking, uh, looking back on intent and I read
Speaker 2: Langford's book that he wrote the name of It's my
Speaker 2: Chicago Green Section thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, from nineteen fifteen.
Speaker 2: Or nineteen fifteen. That's exactly right.
Speaker 1: That's it was found by Craig Pratt.
Speaker 2: Oh.
Speaker 1: Really he founded in the Michigan State Turf Library Library.
Speaker 1: His wife was ganging or PhD or something, and he
Speaker 1: was He was like, honey, I need you to go
Speaker 1: into the archives and find them.
Speaker 2: That's amazing.
Speaker 1: He talks about it when we did.
Speaker 2: That's just amazing.
Speaker 1: So his wife has to go into the archives.
Speaker 2: I need this book and find this book. Wow, that's
Speaker 2: a good one, yea, that you know, and great it is.
Speaker 2: It's it's I mean, it's it's fantastic. One of the
Speaker 2: things that caught my eye while reading that was how
Speaker 2: he knew in this area or this area of the
Speaker 2: country Chicago around here, is that in the summertime, the
Speaker 2: clay soils get hard and they bake out, and and
Speaker 2: you know, I start thinking about these slopes around the greens,
Speaker 2: Well that that's what they would have baked out in
Speaker 2: the summertime here, and they would have been brown and
Speaker 2: hard as a rock, and the balls would have bounced,
Speaker 2: you know, they would have diverted to where he wanted
Speaker 2: him to as far as the slopes, so, uh, maintaining
Speaker 2: them is a different story. Obviously we we uh nowadays
Speaker 2: don't want brown, dead grass on the slopes around greens.
Speaker 2: So what what got me thinking about expanding and mowing
Speaker 2: them shorter was was that philosophy that you wanted the
Speaker 2: ball to roll or bounce, so mowing it shorter became
Speaker 2: a priority. Now getting there has been interesting. We've yet
Speaker 2: to figure it all out, but we're getting close. With
Speaker 2: the fly mowers, some of our Faaraway motors can can
Speaker 2: hug some of these banks. But they are difficult to
Speaker 2: maintain for sure. They're just so big. It's not only
Speaker 2: the angle, it's just the size of them. Yeah, And
Speaker 2: I remember hearing Richard ForSight, superintendent at Roll Melbourne, talk
Speaker 2: about how their greens aren't really big. I mean they're
Speaker 2: they're a good size, but the bunkering and everything around
Speaker 2: them makes them seem bigger, which is true here because
Speaker 2: you could have a green side bunker shot, but it
Speaker 2: could be thirty yards or forty yards to just to
Speaker 2: get on top of the green. So that that's the
Speaker 2: difficult part to me in maintaining them, is that they're
Speaker 2: not only steep, but they're just large and it it
Speaker 2: it presents a challenge for sure. And it's just you know,
Speaker 2: we've we, like I said, we've tried to you know,
Speaker 2: rotary mowers, push mowing, fly mowers, weed eating.
Speaker 1: Which ones Which one worked the worst?
Speaker 2: I think the push mowing was the worst because I
Speaker 2: remember about breaking my ankle trying to you know, trying
Speaker 2: to hold the slopes while pushing a you know, out
Speaker 2: front rotary mower.
Speaker 1: Have you seen those like rumba like mowers?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you know, I don't know, I don't know.
Speaker 2: Hopefully there's I think we found something with these with
Speaker 2: the fly mowers we're using that we can get down
Speaker 2: to you know, a half inch mowing height, which is
Speaker 2: I think about perfect for our slopes. It will it'll
Speaker 2: take balls where they need to go or where they're
Speaker 2: intended to go. And and so we just we just
Speaker 2: started doing that at the end of the year. So
Speaker 2: we'll see how it works out this spring.
Speaker 1: So we'll get we'll get you out of here. We're uh,
Speaker 1: but you know, in terms of lang from a row.
Speaker 1: And obviously you know you said to me today, like
Speaker 1: there's one point when you were first got out here,
Speaker 1: you're like, whoa, this is different. What amazes you the
Speaker 1: most about what they did at this property.
Speaker 2: Well, what's really amazing, and I think it's amazing that
Speaker 2: most people is how much earth they moved in nineteen
Speaker 2: twenty two with the equipment they had. You know, I've
Speaker 2: I've been looking for that photo of a steam shovel
Speaker 2: out here to to to be able to show you.
Speaker 2: But that I mean, it's just chi. Yeah, it could
Speaker 2: be there. It could be there. When they built the airport,
Speaker 2: I did read that they borrowed Culver's steam shovel to
Speaker 2: build the two runways, So I know there there's one
Speaker 2: here somewhere. So I'm gonna I'm gonna dig deep in that.
Speaker 1: I wonder if it's still here.
Speaker 2: I don't know, I don't know very well, could be.
Speaker 2: And that's what you know, it's exciting about this, this
Speaker 2: direction I'm going is finding things like that to see,
Speaker 2: you know, maybe it's somewhere around here, but that you know,
Speaker 2: just the green pads that were built and how they were,
Speaker 2: how much they were built up. It just amazes me
Speaker 2: that that they could do that then. Obviously easier nowadays,
Speaker 2: but you know, and I and I think that might
Speaker 2: lend itself to more Theodore Moreau what he was able
Speaker 2: to do and I don't know a lot about Langford
Speaker 2: after Moreau was passed on of of his work. You know,
Speaker 2: I don't know if it changed or I.
Speaker 1: Think it is. It's much different before, Yeah, much more
Speaker 1: subdued before him and Moreau got together. And then that
Speaker 1: Harry Speed might have been involved too. Yeah, there's another
Speaker 1: There's just not enough information out there. I don't think
Speaker 1: anybody's you know, Dan Morris done a lot of research,
Speaker 1: but nobody's really dug into them, like the way that
Speaker 1: Donald Ross has been researched. Oh yeah, no doubt without
Speaker 1: Alistair McKenzie.
Speaker 2: You know, yeah, without a doubt.
Speaker 1: Definitely, because they were designing golf courses in places like Culver, Indiana,
Speaker 1: and not San Francisco or Right Peninsula.
Speaker 2: Yeah, a big difference, difference work in Boston, exactly. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but they were they were really busy. Yes, for sure,
Speaker 2: we did a lot of work and uh, you know,
Speaker 2: unfortunately most of it's been changed or gone, but it's
Speaker 2: and it Sean totally will tell you the same thing
Speaker 2: that you just need to find out more about them,
Speaker 2: because the work they have done it's still here, is
Speaker 2: pretty impressive. For sure.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it's it's neat so We wish you the
Speaker 1: best on on your historical deep dive. I hope it,
Speaker 1: hope it doesn't lead to too much frustration that ends.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we hope not too that's for sure. But I
Speaker 2: you'll know when I find something. Sure.
Speaker 1: Yeah, everybody can follow you on on on Twitter, your handles.
Speaker 2: MD vestly Yeah yeah.
Speaker 1: And a good follow good lots of lots of information
Speaker 1: up there. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Absolutely So we'll talk soon and thanks for coming on
Speaker 2: all right, Thank you, Andy, appreciate