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Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to Cool People who Did Cool Stuff.

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Speaker 2: You're a weekly reminder that sometimes Margaret has to take

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Speaker 2: breaks because she's a person and it is an overwhelming

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Speaker 2: amount of work to research new topics every week, and

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Speaker 2: sometimes she gets sick and other life things happened all

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Speaker 2: at once, and so we run reruns sometimes. Sorry for

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Speaker 2: having interrupted a story in the middle of it last week,

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Speaker 2: but it's all going to be worth it. But that's

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Speaker 2: not what you're here to listen to. You're here to

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Speaker 2: listen to the Jaine Collective this week, and this is

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Speaker 2: part two of it, and I just want to go

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Speaker 2: ahead and plug again. Up here at the top, the

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Speaker 2: National Network of Abortion Funds. If you're wondering where to

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Speaker 2: donate to, that is a good place that you can

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Speaker 2: donate to. Also, plancpills dot org is going to have

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Speaker 2: information about accessing Plan C pills. It's an organization, that's

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Speaker 2: why it's dot org. It does what it says on

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Speaker 2: the title on the tin. But Plan C pills are

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Speaker 2: for medicaid abortions, which are often self managed. And if

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Speaker 2: you want to know a lot more about self managing,

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Speaker 2: because the technology for abortion has come a long way

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Speaker 2: since the jains were working. I'm not trying to put

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Speaker 2: that down. I mean, as episodes talk about they you know,

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Speaker 2: we're developing a lot of ideas. But anyway, you can

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Speaker 2: look up a freezine called how to Do It Anyway

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Speaker 2: by Hazel Acacia and it's at Tangled Wilderness dot org

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Speaker 2: and you can print them out or you can order

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Speaker 2: them in bulk, and you can make it so that

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Speaker 2: they have a really hard time stopping us from controlling

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Speaker 2: our bodies. So take care of yourselves, take care of

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Speaker 2: each other, and enjoy this episode. Hello, and welcome to

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Speaker 2: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff. It's a podcast. The

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Speaker 2: title isn't sarcastic. We actually talk about people we think

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Speaker 2: are cool and who did things that we also think

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Speaker 2: are cool. And you know who else is cool is

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Speaker 2: my guest this week Samantha McVay, who is the host

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Speaker 2: of Stuff Mom Never told You. And it's not only

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Speaker 2: my new best friend, but dear listener, she is your

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Speaker 2: new best friend as well.

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Speaker 3: Yes, how you doing I'm doing so see, this is

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Speaker 3: the thing that I've been trying to run with. This

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Speaker 3: is how I make friends by trying to tell them

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Speaker 3: I'm cool. So this is perfect. So I'm going to

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Speaker 3: be on the show about when people with do cool

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Speaker 3: stuff because I want to be cool like that. That's

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Speaker 3: how it works, right, and then people want to get

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Speaker 3: friends with me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah definitely. Okay, all right, that's what I'm relying on

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Speaker 2: as well.

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Speaker 3: Okay, I'm gonna channel this.

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Speaker 1: Let's go.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And we also have Sophie with us, who is

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Speaker 2: not only the producer of the show, but and the

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Speaker 2: coolest and it's also basically the Pope of podcasts. Yes,

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Speaker 2: that's in charge of little podcasts. And much like the Pope,

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Speaker 2: she decides who lives and who dies.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yes, And much like the Pope directs, like tells us

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Speaker 3: what's moral and what's not, even if we don't believe

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Speaker 3: her half the time.

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Speaker 2: Totally, and then we just act on whatever Sophie says

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Speaker 2: instead of actually listening to her own. Sorry, we painted

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Speaker 2: you into a corner or here.

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Speaker 1: I I too like fun hats.

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Speaker 3: Yeah it is true, it's true, you do.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but you know it's not about me.

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Speaker 3: Let's go, let's go.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Okay, So today we're doing part two of our

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Speaker 2: two part series on the Jaine Collective, who are a

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Speaker 2: badass crew of underground abortionists in pre Roe v. Wade, Chicago,

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Speaker 2: And this episode will make approximately zero sense if you

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Speaker 2: don't go back and listen to part one. So go

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Speaker 2: listen to part one. We'll wait. Okay, So Jane offering abortions,

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Speaker 2: no longer reliance on crime guy Nick Mike, but are

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Speaker 2: doing it themselves Mike Nick, Yeah, Mike nixt Sorry.

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Speaker 3: I'm just making sure we have both versions in so yeah,

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Speaker 3: we are correct, but we did forget the title sexy,

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Speaker 3: so sexy Mike Nick sexy Nick, Mike right.

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Speaker 2: Right, totally, Yeah, that is the title of the ye Like, yeah, okay, So,

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Speaker 2: so Jane is offering abortions for every trimester and this

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Speaker 2: is like really not how to diy an abortion podcast,

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Speaker 2: although if those exists, you should go listen to them,

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Speaker 2: but this is not one of them. And the techniques

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Speaker 2: I'm going to be talking about are like fifty years

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Speaker 2: old and are transmitted through me, who is an absolute

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Speaker 2: lay person who doesn't have a uterus and is completely

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Speaker 2: grossed up by the idea of the inside of my

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Speaker 2: own body. Like if I go to a training about

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Speaker 2: how to apply a tourniquet, I what I do is

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Speaker 2: I am pretend like I'm not there, and then learn

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Speaker 2: the information. So just keep all of.

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Speaker 3: Them many things, pretend they're not there, and just learn.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. But it feels important to me to understand

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Speaker 2: some of the ways that people have historically and can

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Speaker 2: temporarily go about ending unwanted pregnancies. For some weird reason,

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Speaker 2: it just seems like really important right now. It's hard

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Speaker 2: to say why.

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Speaker 3: As a person in Georgia, but many laws of floating

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Speaker 3: I don't.

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Speaker 2: Either, Yeah, so it's so weird. Some in the air

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Speaker 2: I don't know. And one thing I talked to when

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Speaker 2: I was talking through this show with one of my

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Speaker 2: friends is a reproductive rights justice activist person all those

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Speaker 2: words in the proper order. One of the things that

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Speaker 2: they were pointing out is that it's important not to

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Speaker 2: present this dark age before Roe v.

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Speaker 3: Wade.

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Speaker 2: Legal abortion access matters, and we need to defend that.

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Speaker 2: But we need to like soberly recognize that people can

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Speaker 2: and have learned how to take care of not just

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Speaker 2: their own health, but like on a community level and

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Speaker 2: on a like a real level, so that people recognize

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Speaker 2: that they do have real options if we lose Roe v. Wade, right,

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Speaker 2: so that it's not like your only option is to

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Speaker 2: go to someone who's really sketchy, because we need to

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Speaker 2: instead fight to make sure that that doesn't become the case.

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Speaker 2: So when Jane started, they're mostly doing a style of

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Speaker 2: abortion called dilation and curetage or a DNC, especially for

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Speaker 2: first trimester abortions, and what they do is they injected

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Speaker 2: a local anesthetic and then they scrape the walls of

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Speaker 2: the uterus with a loop shape instrument called a curette,

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Speaker 2: and they then provided pills and injections to stop infection

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Speaker 2: and bleeding. And they recommended a guynecologist or they recommend

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Speaker 2: it getting a guyological checkup, and if you didn't have one,

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Speaker 2: they recommended you one. And dn C, at least as

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Speaker 2: it was performed originally, is a fairly dangerous procedure. It's

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Speaker 2: not a bad procedure. It's important that people be able

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Speaker 2: to do this, but it's a It evolves sharp objects

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Speaker 2: and sensitive areas, and Jane was really fucking good at it.

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Speaker 2: But it seems like some of the worst ways that

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Speaker 2: inexperienced abortionists fucked patients up is with DNC, and especially

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Speaker 2: also with herbal abortions. But we're not going to get

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Speaker 2: into that on the show, and Jane didn't fuck with

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Speaker 2: herbal abortions. To my knowledge, DNC is still used today,

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Speaker 2: although the term is a wider usage now, basically to

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Speaker 2: include things other than a sharp curet. They like suction curets,

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Speaker 2: vacuum aspiration as it's sometimes called, where they vacuum things

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Speaker 2: out instead of scraping them out. But to tell you

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Speaker 2: about vacuum aspiration, and I get to tell you about

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Speaker 2: a bunch of other really cool people, Let's go with

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Speaker 2: people who are complicated who did cool things for some

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Speaker 2: of these people instead of people who I want to

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Speaker 2: blanketly tell you are cool. Because Harvey Carmon was not

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Speaker 2: an MD, some reports claim that he is a psychology doctorate,

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Speaker 2: so he was technically a doctor. Others claimed that he

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Speaker 2: just had a master's degree in theater. And while yeah,

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Speaker 2: that is it is, he might have had both. He

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Speaker 2: might have later gone back and got a doctor a

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Speaker 2: degree in psychology. I don't know. Okay, When he was

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Speaker 2: still a student, he was practicing abortion in California and

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Speaker 2: one of his patients died and he served two and

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Speaker 2: a half years in prison for it. And I literally

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Speaker 2: don't have a means by which to judge whether or

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Speaker 2: not he was a responsible practitioner who happened to lose

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Speaker 2: a patient due to the circumstances that he was forced

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Speaker 2: into by criminalization, or whether he was a sketchy, fucking,

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Speaker 2: shitty abortionist. I literally don't have a way to at

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Speaker 2: least my information gathering powers did not answer this. But

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Speaker 2: he was an innovator, and which really doesn't answer the

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Speaker 2: question of whether or not he was responsible or ethical,

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Speaker 2: because just because you want to try new shit doesn't

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Speaker 2: necessarily make it good. Right.

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Speaker 3: It's kind of like when doctors were practicing curing hysteria

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Speaker 3: on women, and we know what that led to.

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Speaker 2: Right totally. One time, when he's in jail for practicing abortions,

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Speaker 2: he invents a new abortion technique which has revolutionized first

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Speaker 2: trimester abortions and is like largely the reason as far

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Speaker 2: as I understand that we have, say first trimester abortions. However,

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Speaker 2: when I say revolutionize and invented, you'll be shocked to

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Speaker 2: know that Chinese doctors figured it out a long time earlier,

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Speaker 2: and that information was not transmitted to the West until

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Speaker 2: after a Western practitioner figured it out, which happens time

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Speaker 2: and time again, every time you're like this guy invented

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Speaker 2: a thing, you're like, this guy invented it for the

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Speaker 2: Western world.

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Speaker 3: Read it for it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, totally something. But he invented something called the Carmen canula,

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Speaker 2: which is a flexible curet and it basically allows vacuum aspiration.

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Speaker 2: It allows the idea of using in this case originally

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Speaker 2: a syringe to suck things out with a flexible tube

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Speaker 2: instead of using a sharp curet. And it dramatically reduces

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Speaker 2: the risk of perforat in the uterus, and it reduces

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Speaker 2: the need for anesthesia to relax the cervix. And it,

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's just a fucking flexible tube as far

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Speaker 2: as I can tell. And it gets called vacuum aspiration

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Speaker 2: or the non medical term, and I'm going to talk

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Speaker 2: about this in a little bit is called menstrual extraction.

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Speaker 2: The former, as best as I understand, it is like

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Speaker 2: the medical name, and the latter is it's de medicalized

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Speaker 2: name used in different people by two women who immediately

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Speaker 2: took upon his concept and improved upon it. Carol Downer

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Speaker 2: and Lori Aenne Rothman were two of the most important

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Speaker 2: underground abortion providers at the time. Yet They're rarely referred

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Speaker 2: to as that because what they did is they invented

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Speaker 2: and again I can't speak to everyone ever having done

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Speaker 2: this before, but they invented a menstrual extraction. They took

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Speaker 2: the existing vacuum aspiration and they added both a one

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Speaker 2: way valve in order to keep air from accidently going

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Speaker 2: into the uterus, and then also a jarged a mason

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Speaker 2: jar that's attached to it so that more material can

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Speaker 2: be removed at once. And so now you can do

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Speaker 2: a full menstrual extraction, which is basically the idea of like,

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Speaker 2: you can pass all of your mensies all at once

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Speaker 2: instead of waiting for it to slowly pass. And what

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Speaker 2: happens when you do that is, if you happen to

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Speaker 2: be pregnant with a first train mester abortion, you are

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Speaker 2: suddenly no longer pregnant, okay. And they didn't like advertise

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Speaker 2: this as an abortion technique because that would have been illegal. Instead,

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Speaker 2: they were like, oh, groups of women could just all

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Speaker 2: get together and provide this service for each other. Because

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Speaker 2: it actually takes multiple people to use the device. You

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Speaker 2: can't necessarily self administer it just because of angles and

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Speaker 2: I don't know, and to be Frank. I had never

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Speaker 2: heard of this, and about half of the people I've

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Speaker 2: talked to who have universes had heard of this, and

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Speaker 2: half of them hadn't. And I don't know whether myself.

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Speaker 3: Seemed them not in person, Like I obviously have seen

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Speaker 3: the pictures of the as you're describing me. I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah, okay,

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Speaker 3: I get it. Yep, yep, yep yeah.

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Speaker 2: And it gets called. Their invention is called a Dell

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Speaker 2: M D E L space EM in case you all

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Speaker 2: want to go look up how to do this kind

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Speaker 2: of interesting thing. In nineteen seventy one, they invent this thing,

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Speaker 2: and then they downplay the abortion side of it. But

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Speaker 2: they go to the National Organization Conference of Women, the

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Speaker 2: NOW Conference in California in nineteen seventy one, so they

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Speaker 2: can announce this invention to the world, and they were like, hell, yeah,

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Speaker 2: everyone's going to love this. But instead the NOW organizers

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Speaker 2: were like, this is a little bit much for a booth.

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Speaker 2: I don't think you can have a booth for an

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Speaker 2: abortion here. And they're like, what it's remind structure right now,

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Speaker 2: I'm putting words in their mouth, And so they put

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Speaker 2: up flyers saying, hey, come to our hotel room and

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Speaker 2: we'll show you how to use this device. And everyone

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Speaker 2: fucking loved it, right because it fucking ruled. And so

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Speaker 2: they gathered this list of names and they went on

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Speaker 2: this greyhound tour across the country giving presentations about the

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Speaker 2: dell M. And I just love how like scrappy it

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Speaker 2: is that they like invent this thing that involves Mason jars.

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Speaker 2: And they don't have a car, so they're just like again,

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Speaker 2: I mean, maybe a car, but they go on a

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Speaker 2: greyhound tour that rules. And Lorraine has a quote from

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Speaker 2: two thousand and two that sums up the sort of

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Speaker 2: de medicalization approach that was popular with a lot of

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Speaker 2: the underground abortion access people before nineteen seventy three. What

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Speaker 2: did women do before there were doctors. Let's stop the

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Speaker 2: humiliation of trying to persuade the powers that be to

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Speaker 2: legalize abortion. Let's just take back the technology, the tools,

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Speaker 2: the skills, and the information to perform early abortions and

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Speaker 2: be in charge of our own reproduction. And once again,

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Speaker 2: you'll be shocked to know that this device is having

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Speaker 2: something of a comeback in the modern era. And so

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Speaker 2: Jane didn't use the del M specifically as far as

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Speaker 2: I can tell, But they did use the Carmen canula extensively,

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Speaker 2: and I think generally in combination with vacuum aspiration. They also,

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Speaker 2: and this gets into the sketchier side of some of it,

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Speaker 2: they use another one of Carmen's inventions that was a

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Speaker 2: lot less successful. They use something called the super coil.

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Speaker 2: I'm actually curious, have you heard of this? I'm trying

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Speaker 2: to figure out how known this is and.

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Speaker 3: I don't think so. But it's one of those I'm like,

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Speaker 3: as you describe it, I may know of it totally.

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Speaker 2: I'm not trying to put you on the spot.

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Speaker 3: Yeah no, no, yeah, because I'm sitting here like, Okay,

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Speaker 3: We've gotten through several devices and I think I'm glazed though,

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Speaker 3: but yeah, keep going.

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Speaker 2: No, no, no, So the super coil is not around today

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Speaker 2: because it is a bad idea as far as I

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Speaker 2: can tell, and it was meant to revolutionize second trimester abortion. Basically,

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Speaker 2: he was like, I have revolutionized first trimester abortion and

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Speaker 2: made it easier for lay people to do it. Now

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Speaker 2: I want to revolutionize second tremis abortion. And so the

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Speaker 2: super coil involves coiling up like like tightly coiled plastic

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Speaker 2: rings basically attached to a string that are inserted into

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Speaker 2: the uterus and then left to expand so that they

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Speaker 2: could be pulled out and then clear out the area

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Speaker 2: as they you know, causing.

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Speaker 3: The I did not know what This is horrifying though, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I feel like I've had Sophie. Yeah, so my last

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Speaker 3: interaction with Robert when Sophie was them talking about a

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Speaker 3: birth control that attached itself and to tour o people's shooters.

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Speaker 3: So this is amazing. I feel like with Come.

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Speaker 1: Full Circle, we definitely have com Full Circle. That on

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Speaker 1: that episode with Robert was like one of the like

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Speaker 1: I it like makes me itchy and like it was

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Speaker 1: so terrifying.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I still see people post you but yeah, like that,

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Speaker 3: we're back here to something that goes out, expands and

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Speaker 3: tries to pull things out of people's vaginas. So I'm like, okay,

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Speaker 3: we're back.

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Speaker 1: That's our thing, Samantha.

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Speaker 3: This let's keep going. This is amazing. I'm now like, yes,

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Speaker 3: this is my world, let's go.

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Speaker 2: This is the This is the darkest chunk of this episode.

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Speaker 2: I believe even later they get arrested and it's not

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Speaker 2: as dark as this chunk. So they helped Carmen test it.

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Speaker 2: They they sided with him in debates to come, and

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Speaker 2: they were probably wrong about it. It was meant to

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Speaker 2: help lay people provide abortions, but it was it was

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Speaker 2: probably too good to be true. Basically, like they were

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Speaker 2: at least one person I read argued that basically they

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Speaker 2: were like sucked in by the idea of like, oh,

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Speaker 2: we have a numerical device. This rules because they had

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Speaker 2: just gotten a numerical device from the same guy. Not

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Speaker 2: numerical but not numbers, but miracle device that is new.

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Speaker 2: So he goes and tests it, and he first tests

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Speaker 2: it through with International Planned Parenthood in on Bangladeshi women

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Speaker 2: at a large scale, and it I'm not aware of

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Speaker 2: it killing anyone, but it did not do incredibly well

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Speaker 2: and there were a lot of complications.

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Speaker 3: I will say it sounds like it could cause permanent damage, yes,

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Speaker 3: which is kind of the horror stories people tell that

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Speaker 3: our anti choice about the permanent damage. And this seems

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Speaker 3: to follow suit because I can't imagine something just at

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Speaker 3: that point in time being like, oh, it's self working.

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Speaker 3: It just expands and grabs the right things.

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Speaker 2: But does but doesn't yeah, exactly, And there's a lot

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Speaker 2: of different arguments about or I've seen a couple different

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Speaker 2: things about whether or not Jane was involved in using

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Speaker 2: this or testing this. I do believe they did use

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Speaker 2: this successfully for a number of abortions, and again, their

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Speaker 2: overall results were that they were as good as any

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Speaker 2: medical facility at that time. Right, Right, But anyway, this

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Speaker 2: is a darker thing that they were involved in, right.

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Speaker 3: I mean, that makes me a question did they give

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Speaker 3: the people who came in, the patients and clients a

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Speaker 3: choice on what kind of procedure they could have? And

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Speaker 3: I know they were pretty good about giving like risk

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Speaker 3: statistics and let them know aftercare and all of that.

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Speaker 3: So I wonder if there was like a moment of like,

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Speaker 3: you have these options, now, which would you like to do?

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Speaker 2: I would like to get off of them the benefit

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Speaker 2: of the doubt of that around that, But I don't know.

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Speaker 3: And because I honestly did not know this part of

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Speaker 3: this history, I was like, oh, yeah, that's that's a

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Speaker 3: little alarming. You don't want to start testing things and

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Speaker 3: when you have someone testing on a different group of

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Speaker 3: people you know is probably not good, which is the

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Speaker 3: history of all medicine essentially. But you know, that's a

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Speaker 3: whole different rabbit hole that I will not do as

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Speaker 3: a negative Nelly moment.

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Speaker 2: So I'm not no, no, I mean like, and this

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Speaker 2: is like, this is the most warts and all that

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Speaker 2: I'm going to get around this, and even this is

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Speaker 2: like a complicated thing, you know. One of the things

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Speaker 2: that I read one of the black women who volunteered

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Speaker 2: for this was like basically to her position being like

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Speaker 2: I'm paraphrasing, but like if I can kidding me saying

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Speaker 2: that I can't consent to this just because I'm a

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Speaker 2: black woman, you know. And so there's this like I'm

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Speaker 2: reading biased reports, right, I'm reading people who are trying

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Speaker 2: to make positions to either claim that this was this

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Speaker 2: terrible thing that people did or this brilliant, brave thing

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Speaker 2: that people did. And I don't have anything near the

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Speaker 2: right position to understand what is and isn't ethical for

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Speaker 2: what happened here, and like what level of informed consent

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Speaker 2: was available. But I'm also under the impression that a

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Speaker 2: lot of their other options were worse.

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Speaker 3: Right, So we come back to the fact that there's

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Speaker 3: so many things that pushes people to a certain point,

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Speaker 3: and when it's not accessible and it becomes looked at

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Speaker 3: as again lawful unlawful. Then people to push to the

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Speaker 3: point that is is extreme. So you do what you can,

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Speaker 3: and people being in that point, well, we are going

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Speaker 3: to choose what they think is less are able for them. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: and it's not the case like that's it shouldn't have

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Speaker 3: to be even that conversation.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. And so as a Carmen, he kind of

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Speaker 2: disappears after this whole fiasco. He's like, I tried to

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Speaker 2: invent a thing and it didn't work, and he kind

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Speaker 2: of his trail was called at least from my my

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Speaker 2: slooping at this point, it.

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Speaker 3: Wasn't a medical doctor, right, you or say that he's

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Speaker 3: either got maybe maybe in psychology, but also maybe just theater,

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Speaker 3: Like he just.

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Speaker 2: Right did a thing. However, as as a different states

378
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Speaker 2: would legalize abortion, he was so well known that he

379
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Speaker 2: would be invited to come participate in legal abortion areas

380
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Speaker 2: because he was a really experienced abortionist. But that also

381
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Speaker 2: empowered him to do all of these things that are

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Speaker 2: real messy, and so it's just like kind of interesting

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Speaker 2: that like this is the person who did the thing

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Speaker 2: that got say, first trimester abortions avail, you.

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Speaker 3: Know, right, I mean some good did come of it.

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Speaker 2: Right, and now we have chemical abortions for first sar

387
00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:09,760
Speaker 2: amester that are safer and better than this method as

388
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Speaker 2: far as I understand him a circumstances. But I don't know.

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Speaker 3: There's so many things to this in this conversation about

390
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Speaker 3: what this looks like when it is not considered healthcare

391
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Speaker 3: and why it's so blase, and yes, some good did

392
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Speaker 3: come of it, but some bad to come of it,

393
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Speaker 3: And then there's this need of like understanding it is healthcare.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, totally okay, but but who is cool? Yes, I will,

395
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Speaker 2: I will go on.

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Speaker 1: I don't know.

397
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Speaker 2: Lim to say is another abortion is to popularize some

398
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Speaker 2: shit that Jane wound up using a guy named Robert Spencer.

399
00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:44,520
Speaker 2: And Robert Spencer was a true believer and he was

400
00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:48,240
Speaker 2: not a grifter. He was a doctor, an actual medical doctor,

401
00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:51,600
Speaker 2: and the coal fields in Ashland, Pennsylvania, and he cut

402
00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:54,320
Speaker 2: his doctoring teeth inventing new ways to treat black lung

403
00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:57,480
Speaker 2: and coal miners, including a lot of pioneering work. And

404
00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:00,760
Speaker 2: I don't know to pronounce this word, Bronco Scott Bronchios

405
00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:03,280
Speaker 2: is ticking cameras down people's throats. I don't know, looking

406
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Speaker 2: at people's throats, and he did experiment with black lung.

407
00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:09,360
Speaker 2: But this is also a situation where you're like, oh,

408
00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:11,520
Speaker 2: these coal miners are dying and no one here is

409
00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:14,960
Speaker 2: like paying attention to black lung except me. And so

410
00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:17,600
Speaker 2: he's very well liked, this doctor in this town. And

411
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Speaker 2: then sometime in the early twenties, he starts a coal

412
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Speaker 2: miner's wife is like, you know, I'm pregnant. I'd really

413
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Speaker 2: rather not be, and I tried calling Jane, but the

414
00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:27,360
Speaker 2: number isn't active yet or something. I'm like forty years

415
00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:31,720
Speaker 2: too early. So he performs an abortion, and then he

416
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Speaker 2: just starts performing abortions in this town, and he single

417
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Speaker 2: handedly performed something like forty thousand abortions. He died in

418
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Speaker 2: nineteen sixty nine before his work could become legal, and

419
00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:43,439
Speaker 2: his wife burned all of his records, I guess, to

420
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Speaker 2: either protect his legacy or maybe his staff or maybe herself,

421
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Speaker 2: I don't know. And he eventually the entire town's economy,

422
00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:54,400
Speaker 2: like huge chunk of the town's economy relies on this guy,

423
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Speaker 2: because people are coming from all over the place to

424
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Speaker 2: get abortions here, and they like staying at hotels and shit.

425
00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:01,640
Speaker 2: But the hotel tells some of the hotels at least

426
00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:04,560
Speaker 2: didn't let black patients stay, so he built accommodations so

427
00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:07,280
Speaker 2: that black patients could still come and get abortions in

428
00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:10,679
Speaker 2: this town. He was arrested three times for providing abortions.

429
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Speaker 2: One of the times he was arrested at least was

430
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Speaker 2: because a patient died. They died from anesthesia problems. And

431
00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:24,400
Speaker 2: you know, I'm not a doctor. I know that anesthesia

432
00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:28,359
Speaker 2: is a complicated thing, especially eighty years ago. You know,

433
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Speaker 2: I'm not trying to like lay judgment on him for this,

434
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Speaker 2: but he was acquitted two of the times he was

435
00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:37,480
Speaker 2: arrested because I think everyone in town was like, you

436
00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:39,840
Speaker 2: can't convict this guy. You what are you talking about? Like,

437
00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:42,480
Speaker 2: this is our guy. We like this guy, were like

438
00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:48,280
Speaker 2: abortion yeah yeah, and like and he also had union protection,

439
00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:50,760
Speaker 2: the United Mine Workers had.

440
00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:53,680
Speaker 3: His best the okay, okay, yeah, and.

441
00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:56,080
Speaker 2: They're like union miners did not fuck around back then.

442
00:22:57,240 --> 00:22:58,720
Speaker 3: As our boy, don't touch them.

443
00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:03,800
Speaker 2: Yeah. And to his quote about why people liked him,

444
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:06,480
Speaker 2: I've been here since nineteen nineteen. I dare say I've

445
00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:09,080
Speaker 2: helped out half the town, even on the abortion end,

446
00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:11,520
Speaker 2: there's probably one of my patients related to a family

447
00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:13,440
Speaker 2: in half the town. I think most of the town

448
00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:14,480
Speaker 2: would stand up for me.

449
00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:18,840
Speaker 3: That's just like I think they would stand up with me.

450
00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:19,800
Speaker 3: I think we're cool.

451
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:23,000
Speaker 2: Yeah. And so he's seventy nine years old. He keeps

452
00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:25,400
Speaker 2: going into retirement and then coming out of retirement because

453
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:28,480
Speaker 2: people need his help, right, because he's really fucking good

454
00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:31,159
Speaker 2: at his job. And he provides abortions for cheap and

455
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:34,680
Speaker 2: I'll get to that. And he's seventy nine and he's

456
00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:38,240
Speaker 2: awaiting trial for a third time and he dies of

457
00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:41,960
Speaker 2: old age while like actively practicing, and he was performing

458
00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:44,000
Speaker 2: three to four abortions a day right up to the end.

459
00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:48,000
Speaker 2: There's this whole article from Village Voice from nineteen sixty nine.

460
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:49,639
Speaker 2: I think it's called the Death of an Abortionist, and

461
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:52,720
Speaker 2: it's a journalist who travels down there to basically just

462
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:55,240
Speaker 2: to meet him, just to be like, you are amazing.

463
00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:57,639
Speaker 2: You are the reason that people feel safe, you know.

464
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:01,840
Speaker 2: And he charged the cheapest rates, some of the cheapest

465
00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:04,960
Speaker 2: rates of anyone. His first abortions cost five dollars, and

466
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:07,720
Speaker 2: then as the cost of drugs and overhead went up

467
00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:09,480
Speaker 2: at the end, he was charging two hundred dollars in

468
00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:12,920
Speaker 2: the late sixties, but again most abortions were costing six

469
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:16,000
Speaker 2: hundred to two thousand dollars. He was this like lovable weirdo.

470
00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:18,680
Speaker 2: He treated everyone kindly. He covered his office in like

471
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:24,160
Speaker 2: weird weird plaques from tourist traps and the Village Voice

472
00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:26,760
Speaker 2: journalists who showed up. She asks him, like, why did

473
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:29,239
Speaker 2: you perform abortions when the people first asked you? And

474
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:31,560
Speaker 2: he said, because I could see their point of view,

475
00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:35,919
Speaker 2: and I just I love that as an answer, you know,

476
00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:40,360
Speaker 2: just like basic human empathy. And his name never really

477
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:42,800
Speaker 2: appeared until he died. His name like didn't really appear

478
00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:45,600
Speaker 2: much in print. I think one place docked him or whatever,

479
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:48,359
Speaker 2: but he was always just printed as the legendary doctor

480
00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:53,800
Speaker 2: s and okay. And he popularized a technique or using

481
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:57,679
Speaker 2: something called I don't pronounce this word loundbacks paste loanback's

482
00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:02,080
Speaker 2: paste to help dilate the cervix. It's like a soft soap.

483
00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:06,959
Speaker 2: Is not currently in use, but Jane used it and

484
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:09,360
Speaker 2: was very glad for it. It helped make their whole

485
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:13,280
Speaker 2: anesthesia process much safer. And they I don't know whether

486
00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:15,399
Speaker 2: they made their own or got it from Robert Spencer

487
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,119
Speaker 2: because Robert Senser was making his own because it was

488
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:21,360
Speaker 2: no longer commercially available. I don't know. I think he's

489
00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:23,560
Speaker 2: cool too, And I really liked that Jane was building

490
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:27,760
Speaker 2: from this was part of this larger framework of people

491
00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:30,639
Speaker 2: who are like, how do we do this like absent

492
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:34,679
Speaker 2: of like the medical industry, how do we actually like

493
00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:36,760
Speaker 2: figure out how to do this safely and.

494
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:42,600
Speaker 3: Well right, actually caring about their patients? That's revolutionary?

495
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:47,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally, God, I wish I wish that revolution that's stuck. Yeah,

496
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:49,440
Speaker 2: you know who does care about their patients?

497
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:51,199
Speaker 3: Who? I'm ready?

498
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:54,680
Speaker 2: Well, potatoes, I've been I've been trying to get advertised

499
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:56,840
Speaker 2: by potatoes. I don't know how potatoes have become doctors,

500
00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:59,639
Speaker 2: but I think potatoes are great. And I want to

501
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:02,679
Speaker 2: be answered by entirely wholesome things. So if you hear

502
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 2: anything unwholesome in the ads, that was a mistake. It's

503
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:08,600
Speaker 2: Robert's fault. It's again, it's Robert's fault.

504
00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:09,520
Speaker 3: Agreed.

505
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:13,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so here's some ads for potatoes and maybe

506
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:20,640
Speaker 2: some other stuff. And we're back and we're discussing whether

507
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:23,600
Speaker 2: or not we should actually expand our list of sponsors

508
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:25,000
Speaker 2: to include kittens.

509
00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:28,760
Speaker 1: And cut it. I think, I think yes, I mean

510
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:30,640
Speaker 1: it's good to diversify.

511
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:35,680
Speaker 3: I mean, I think it's important that we talk about

512
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:37,360
Speaker 3: kittens and puppies, right.

513
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:39,359
Speaker 2: I think so. We just have to make clear that

514
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 2: we're advertising the concept of kittens and puppies, not the

515
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,240
Speaker 2: people who traditionally go about selling kittens and puppies.

516
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:46,879
Speaker 3: Yes, it's very clear.

517
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:50,240
Speaker 1: Not not a kitten mill or puppy mill type.

518
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 3: Situation at all. Rescue talking about is the idea of

519
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:59,679
Speaker 3: just cuddling with some kittens or cuddling with a dog,

520
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:02,560
Speaker 3: or at least looking at a cute pictures.

521
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:05,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, while one kitten is in one arm and one

522
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:06,880
Speaker 2: puppy is in the other arm.

523
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 3: My family, when kittens and dogs are friends.

524
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:12,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. I can't wait to introduce my dog to

525
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,120
Speaker 2: more cats. It's actually never gone well, so I.

526
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 3: Actually have My dog does not love cats.

527
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,720
Speaker 2: Well, my dogs, the cats love the dog.

528
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:22,280
Speaker 3: That's fair.

529
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 2: He does not know how to play. So I want

530
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:29,120
Speaker 2: to quote a little bit at length from why Jane

531
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:32,680
Speaker 2: Collective did this work. It's from a statement about why

532
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,560
Speaker 2: they did is a pamphlet that they gave to prospective clients.

533
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 2: Abortion as a social problem. We are giving our time

534
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:43,399
Speaker 2: not only because we want to make abortions safer, cheaper,

535
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:45,840
Speaker 2: and more accessible for the individual women who come to us,

536
00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:48,199
Speaker 2: but because we see the whole abortion issue as a

537
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 2: problem of society. The current abortion laws are a symbol

538
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,280
Speaker 2: of something subtle but often blatant oppression of women in

539
00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:57,439
Speaker 2: our society. Women should have the right to control their

540
00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 2: own bodies and lives. Only a woman who is pregnant

541
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,119
Speaker 2: and can determine whether or not she has enough resources economic, physical,

542
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:06,159
Speaker 2: and emotional at a given time to bear and rear child.

543
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:08,919
Speaker 2: Yet at present, the decision to bear the child or

544
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:10,920
Speaker 2: to have an abortion is taken out of her hands

545
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:13,920
Speaker 2: by government bodies, which can have only the slightest notion

546
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 2: of the problems involved. The same society that glamorizes women

547
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 2: as sex objects and teaches them from an early childhood

548
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:23,399
Speaker 2: to please and satisfy men, views pregnancy and childbirth as

549
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 2: punishment for immoral or careless sexual activity, especially if the

550
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:31,159
Speaker 2: women is uneducated, poor, or black. Our society's view of

551
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,320
Speaker 2: equal opportunity means that lower class women bear unwanted children

552
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:38,680
Speaker 2: or face expensive, illegal, and often unsafe abortions, while well connected,

553
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 2: middle class women can frequently get safe and hush hush

554
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 2: dncs and hospitals. Only women can bring about their own liberation.

555
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:48,280
Speaker 2: It is time for women to get together to change

556
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:50,840
Speaker 2: the male made laws and aid their sisters caught in

557
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:54,080
Speaker 2: the bind of legal restrictions and social stigma. Women must

558
00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 2: fight together to change the attitudes of society about abortion

559
00:28:57,520 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 2: and to make the state provide free abortions as a

560
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:01,640
Speaker 2: human right. I like that.

561
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:06,040
Speaker 3: I like that. There's so many things that like, it

562
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:09,480
Speaker 3: just applies today. I know we're talking about that, but hmm.

563
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:14,480
Speaker 3: But the problem is because it is women's centered typically,

564
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 3: and especially during that time, people see that as being

565
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:21,280
Speaker 3: less important in conversation. Has become it made in a

566
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 3: moral ground. Yeah, even though it's very political obviously. Yeah,

567
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 3: but yeah, I do love I do love that sentiment,

568
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:32,360
Speaker 3: and uh we still need that sentiment. Yeah. No.

569
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:34,720
Speaker 2: I like like sometimes when I get like lost in

570
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 2: the weeds about like this is how they did this

571
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:37,360
Speaker 2: one thing, and this is how they did this other thing,

572
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,360
Speaker 2: and then instead you're just kind of like, here's like

573
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:41,680
Speaker 2: a hundred people who got together to commit felonies to

574
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:44,680
Speaker 2: try and keep people safe, and it's just like that's

575
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:47,680
Speaker 2: always cool, you know, like like and there's always something

576
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:50,920
Speaker 2: I don't know, So I like hearing the the why

577
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:54,000
Speaker 2: they did it. But speaking of felonies, this is not

578
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 2: an ad transition. I'm not advertising felonies on that. I'm

579
00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:00,160
Speaker 2: probably advertising felonies on the show, but not from the

580
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 2: point of view of a sponsorship.

581
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, not trying to get money for it.

582
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, well you got to go out and get

583
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:14,520
Speaker 2: your own money, you know, just say it. Yeah. So

584
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:19,000
Speaker 2: Jane is this big open secret and everyone knows about it.

585
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:22,320
Speaker 2: They advertised and they had security procedures in place, but

586
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 2: clearly the police knew about them, and most of the

587
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 2: reporting about Jane basically says the cops didn't bust them

588
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 2: because the cops kind of liked them. They were clean

589
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:33,880
Speaker 2: and safe and no one was dying, so so why

590
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:38,520
Speaker 2: bust them? Right? To me, this fundamentally misunderstands the nature

591
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:41,440
Speaker 2: of the police, especially the Chicago Police Department. In a

592
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:44,880
Speaker 2: nation of corrup police departments, Chicago like consistently stands out

593
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:47,080
Speaker 2: as one of the crookedest. And the other thing you'll

594
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 2: hear is that police put up with it because the

595
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 2: wives of police and the wives of politician were amongst

596
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:55,360
Speaker 2: their clients, and this feels more plausible to me, But

597
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 2: I suspect that politicians' wives at least could afford a

598
00:30:58,040 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 2: trip to New York, and so I feel like there's

599
00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 2: some kind of like, to be clear, I think crime

600
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:07,120
Speaker 2: is cool, But the same accounts also say that mafia

601
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 2: didn't come after them for similar reasons. They're like, oh, well,

602
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:12,680
Speaker 2: they're not really making a profit, so why would the

603
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 2: mafia care? And this is right, doesn't sound like if

604
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:18,400
Speaker 2: that doesn't sound like the police, and that doesn't sound

605
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 2: like the mafia.

606
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 3: So this is amazing, all of this, all this moment

607
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:24,640
Speaker 3: is amazing.

608
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 1: Thank you.

609
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:27,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm just I'm enjoying this entire thing, all right.

610
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:27,600
Speaker 2: You know.

611
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:30,720
Speaker 3: The other part to this is because they don't see

612
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 3: this as an issue for them, because at that point

613
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 3: in time, I think the majority of the police were men. Yeah,

614
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:40,320
Speaker 3: just speaking, so it was that a woman's thing. It's

615
00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:42,440
Speaker 3: also kind of like same level of like not talking

616
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:45,920
Speaker 3: about periods and being shameful about women's bodies. So it

617
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 3: was like a good point, We're going to pretend you

618
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:51,280
Speaker 3: don't exist because it's easier for us to ew icky

619
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:55,480
Speaker 3: even though and I mean to be frank, the majority

620
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 3: of the times kind of like today when we talk

621
00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 3: about abortion and abortion rights and abortion being healthcare men

622
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 3: typically outside of the morally loud like this is than

623
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:09,400
Speaker 3: just whatever, just don't care because it has nothing to

624
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:10,960
Speaker 3: do with them, and it's just gross and it's like, eh,

625
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 3: it's women's issues, so we'd rather just ignore it, and

626
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:17,720
Speaker 3: doesn't think it's necessarily important. Of course we've got the

627
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:18,800
Speaker 3: religious bits, but.

628
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, this is actually, this is actually that helps

629
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 2: sell me on it better because like all I can see,

630
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:26,800
Speaker 2: I am again really not trying to cause anyone who

631
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:28,840
Speaker 2: might be alive of any kind of crime, but it

632
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:30,960
Speaker 2: seems like the mafia might have been getting a share

633
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 2: out of this. I don't know, again like no judgment

634
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:37,920
Speaker 2: or whatever people need to do to keep the shit running.

635
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:41,640
Speaker 2: But yeah, because everyone knows about this and no one's

636
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 2: doing anything about it. But the thing you're saying also

637
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 2: about like basically people being like we're just not going

638
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 2: to fucking touch it is also completely possible. And then

639
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:53,720
Speaker 2: the way it all falls apart, well it doesn't actually

640
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 2: really fall apart. The way that some people get in

641
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:57,760
Speaker 2: trouble can be told a couple different ways, and run

642
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 2: across one probable story than one maybe story. One day

643
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy three, a Catholic woman comes to get

644
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:07,240
Speaker 2: an abortion, and at the time I actually behind the

645
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 2: Bassard's did a better podcast. But this I remember exactly

646
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 2: when the Protestants started caring about abortion, but for a while,

647
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 2: like only the Catholics cared. Catholic woman comes into get

648
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 2: an abortion, and she was of mixed minds about the

649
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 2: whole thing. A Jane volunteer named Genie Gallizer Leve spends

650
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:25,000
Speaker 2: a long time talking with her about it and like

651
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 2: counseling her, and later she's really bitter about the long

652
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:31,640
Speaker 2: time she's spent talking to her about it. Her sister

653
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 2: in law, the patient's sister in law, was there with her,

654
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:38,280
Speaker 2: and her sister in law called them in, And what

655
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:40,480
Speaker 2: I've heard is that she didn't call them into the

656
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:43,480
Speaker 2: police station like in the district where they were like

657
00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 2: seen as friendly, but instead called them into a different district,

658
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:51,720
Speaker 2: and so suddenly bad things happen. But that's the story

659
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:55,960
Speaker 2: I hear most often told. Another account is that the

660
00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 2: anti abortion lobby was trying to get some arrests in

661
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 2: to do some damage on the legal front. Because Supreme

662
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:05,240
Speaker 2: Court was about to see Roe v. Wade and which

663
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:08,239
Speaker 2: spoiler alert legalized abortion federally across the US and the

664
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:10,960
Speaker 2: seven to two ruling, So maybe someone wanted to get

665
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:13,759
Speaker 2: some abortionists on trial and hurry. And then there's a

666
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:17,520
Speaker 2: third story which comes from the person who's very critical

667
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:22,400
Speaker 2: of their supercil testing, that the bust happened on a

668
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:26,279
Speaker 2: day that they were planning on doing supercoil testing, and

669
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 2: that it was like related to all of that. I

670
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:33,280
Speaker 2: tend to believe the Catholic story best, but I feel

671
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:35,720
Speaker 2: like there's something I actually don't believe any of these stories. Frankly,

672
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 2: that's what. I don't know what it is.

673
00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:40,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, we just know that they got raided and we

674
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:43,200
Speaker 3: don't know how it began. But yeah, I could be

675
00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:45,120
Speaker 3: any of the stories. But that's the one i'd heard too,

676
00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:49,160
Speaker 3: is the Catholic to Catholic women had apported them, but

677
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:54,360
Speaker 3: any fiscal reason. Again, it was coincidentally around and I

678
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:59,160
Speaker 3: will use air quotes more coincidentally around roversus Wade and

679
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:03,359
Speaker 3: the big cop backladging back and forth and controversy with that.

680
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:07,560
Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, with you, Yeah, I think I would

681
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:09,680
Speaker 2: put the most likely is the combination of the first

682
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:13,359
Speaker 2: two things as the Catholic women and some people trying

683
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 2: to get some shit going on. I don't know, but yeah,

684
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:20,680
Speaker 2: they get raided. A May third, nineteen seventy two, Genie

685
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:22,520
Speaker 2: is working at the front and she's caring for three

686
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 2: children left behind by a patient. When she hears a

687
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 2: knock at the door. She thought it was another Jane

688
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:29,040
Speaker 2: who had just like dropped off some snacks, come back

689
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:32,120
Speaker 2: to drop off more snacks, or maybe forgot something or something,

690
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:37,600
Speaker 2: and instead it was cops, really really tall cops. Genie

691
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:39,319
Speaker 2: is like, let them in and told everyone in the

692
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:41,160
Speaker 2: waiting room, these are the police. You don't have to

693
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 2: tell them anything. And then Genie, describing the event, says

694
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:49,360
Speaker 2: they were really tall, really weird. I developed this whole theory.

695
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 2: I love crackpot theories. I intend to be a crackpot

696
00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:53,919
Speaker 2: when I grow up. This is Genie, not me, although

697
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:57,520
Speaker 2: it is also true of me. I love the no

698
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:01,640
Speaker 2: I know, yeah, this is still better. Yeah, yeah, quote,

699
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:03,719
Speaker 2: I intend to be a crackpot when I grow up.

700
00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 2: My theory is that you have to be really tall

701
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:08,080
Speaker 2: to be a homicide cop. These were homicide cops because

702
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:10,680
Speaker 2: abortion was a homicide and they were homicide cops who

703
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:12,920
Speaker 2: hated being there. You know, it's not easy to make

704
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 2: homicide detective. You have to be really good. It's not

705
00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:17,759
Speaker 2: even political, like taking the sergeant's exam. You have to

706
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:20,120
Speaker 2: really do something. And they do it because they want to.

707
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 2: And by and large, what they do is track people

708
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:24,880
Speaker 2: down who kill other people, and they think of themselves

709
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:26,920
Speaker 2: as good guys, and they hated being there. This was

710
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:29,320
Speaker 2: not their kind of crime. End quote.

711
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:33,759
Speaker 3: That is an interesting theory. I really like there's so

712
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:39,480
Speaker 3: many observations about just the male appearance, that these characters

713
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:45,080
Speaker 3: are so like that they're all tall, very tall though.

714
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:49,880
Speaker 2: I know, right, all the cops are like five foot seven,

715
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:51,600
Speaker 2: you know, right five.

716
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:55,360
Speaker 3: Forday, yeah, average, but they're tall because I'm four foot eleven.

717
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:58,040
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, totally, or maybe they like scent. They're like,

718
00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:00,759
Speaker 2: there are three people who are, you know, six foot

719
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:05,280
Speaker 2: six over to go arrest everyone, And so they detain

720
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:07,640
Speaker 2: everyone at the front and they start asking everyone questions.

721
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:09,760
Speaker 2: And the way they figured out who the Janes were, apparently,

722
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:12,000
Speaker 2: is that when they asked the Janes questions, the Janes

723
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:14,840
Speaker 2: refused to answer. And while this did get them separated

724
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:17,560
Speaker 2: out for arrest. It probably saved them later in court,

725
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:19,359
Speaker 2: or at least it was very helpful in court. Their

726
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:22,920
Speaker 2: lawyer later thanked them, was like, I'm so glad you

727
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:26,839
Speaker 2: all didn't say anything, right. And patients though, were asked

728
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:29,840
Speaker 2: all kinds of questions and they largely answered. One question

729
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:32,200
Speaker 2: that left the cops completely confused was they kept asking

730
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:35,440
Speaker 2: how much the Janes charged, and everyone gave wildly different answers.

731
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:38,680
Speaker 2: The police came, I guess, maybe expecting a mafia style

732
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:41,440
Speaker 2: for profit enterprise, and they didn't find one. And at

733
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:43,320
Speaker 2: the same time, the cops arrived at the place and

734
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:46,040
Speaker 2: arrest everyone there, and apparently they showed up and they

735
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:47,920
Speaker 2: were like, where are all the men? Though, you know

736
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:52,279
Speaker 2: who's doing the abortions? Right, And so I guess they

737
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:54,799
Speaker 2: actually really didn't know Jane inside it out, you know,

738
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:58,520
Speaker 2: if they think all these things and so at least

739
00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:00,760
Speaker 2: they probably weren't infiltrated, right, this is what the cops

740
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:02,120
Speaker 2: think true?

741
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 3: And those spies.

742
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:06,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I tend to think that, like the cops know everything, right,

743
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:08,799
Speaker 2: because we talk about how we live in a pentopticon

744
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:11,680
Speaker 2: and we're all being studied all the time or whatever,

745
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 2: and then like every now and then the cops are

746
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:16,000
Speaker 2: just like, they don't know shit. I want to tell

747
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:18,160
Speaker 2: a completely off based story about all of this. Right,

748
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:21,839
Speaker 2: one time, my friend was being investigated as the leader

749
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:26,680
Speaker 2: of international anarchism by the FEDS, and never mind, I'm

750
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:28,440
Speaker 2: not going to tell that story. Okay.

751
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:34,120
Speaker 3: So there's so many levels of understanding why. I'm like, yeah,

752
00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:37,160
Speaker 3: I have I have a cookie cutter of vanilla life,

753
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 3: and I'm really sad that I'm not a part of this.

754
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:43,279
Speaker 3: I don't want to be investigated because I do not

755
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:45,480
Speaker 3: have the anxiety to go through an investment. But just

756
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:49,640
Speaker 3: knowing someone, I'm like, yeah, hell yeah they are Yeah.

757
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:52,920
Speaker 2: Well the spoiler alert, there is no leader of international anarchism.

758
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:55,279
Speaker 2: It goes against the whole idea, and eventually the FEDS

759
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:58,200
Speaker 2: figured that out. But the more personal details about it,

760
00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:00,959
Speaker 2: I'm not going to get into. You're you're going to okay, yeah,

761
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:05,880
Speaker 2: but so okay. So they're all thrown into patty wagons.

762
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:09,600
Speaker 2: They're taken off to jail, and Genie says that when

763
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:11,120
Speaker 2: they were taken off to jail on the patty wagon,

764
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:13,839
Speaker 2: all the all the other women in the patty wagon

765
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:15,920
Speaker 2: were sex workers who kept everyone in good spirits. By

766
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:19,160
Speaker 2: just like telling fun horrible stories about their lives or whatever,

767
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:21,719
Speaker 2: and I really like that they were there to keep

768
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:25,239
Speaker 2: everyone's spirits up. And then in the patty wagon, the

769
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:27,640
Speaker 2: Jans all pulled out all the index cards with all

770
00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:29,480
Speaker 2: of the patient info and shit, and they ripped them

771
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:31,760
Speaker 2: up into little pieces, passed them out, and ate them,

772
00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:36,440
Speaker 2: which is great, badass. And they only spent one night

773
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:40,600
Speaker 2: in jail, probably because they're middle class white women. One

774
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:42,360
Speaker 2: of them, I think one of them, who was a

775
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:45,080
Speaker 2: nursing mother, was let go that night because she had

776
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:47,839
Speaker 2: to go home and feed her kids. And Genie talks

777
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:49,960
Speaker 2: about how the cops like treated them all well as

778
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:53,120
Speaker 2: fellow middle class white people while being rude to any

779
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:54,480
Speaker 2: of the patients who ended up in jail and all

780
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 2: the other people and all the other women in jail,

781
00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:59,600
Speaker 2: which yeah, I guess doesn't really surprise anyone who's listening

782
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:02,360
Speaker 2: to us. Yeah, but in jail they are all The

783
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:05,319
Speaker 2: only food they got offered was boloney sandwiches, which which

784
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:09,200
Speaker 2: Genie couldn't eat, presumably because she was vegetarian. And the

785
00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:11,080
Speaker 2: reason that I include this is because one time I

786
00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:13,840
Speaker 2: was arrested at this anti IMF demonstration in DC thirty

787
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:16,239
Speaker 2: years after all this shit in two thousand and two,

788
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:18,319
Speaker 2: and they gave us all blooney sandwiches and we all

789
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:19,920
Speaker 2: just like sat there and like laughed at our blooney

790
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:22,320
Speaker 2: sandwiches because we were all fucking like vegans and vegetarians

791
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:23,440
Speaker 2: and shit, and we're like, what are we gonna do

792
00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:27,960
Speaker 2: with this? And it was it was mostly a bad experience.

793
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:29,640
Speaker 2: But I was only in jail for like thirty six hours,

794
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:35,080
Speaker 2: possibly because I'm middle class and white and I don't know,

795
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:36,760
Speaker 2: so I didn't get to eat in jail and sucked,

796
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:39,360
Speaker 2: but whatever. I just like that this has been like

797
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:41,480
Speaker 2: a true thing forever. Is that like when hippies and

798
00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:43,279
Speaker 2: activists and shit get arrested, they were like, what the

799
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:47,600
Speaker 2: fuck am I gonna do this blooney sandwich? Yeah, So

800
00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:50,920
Speaker 2: they get led out on bail and they're each facing

801
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:52,800
Speaker 2: one hundred and ten years because the eleven counts of

802
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:56,000
Speaker 2: homicide and conspiracy to commit homicide in the case that

803
00:40:56,080 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 2: will be known as the Abortion seven. And at least

804
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:04,440
Speaker 2: according to Genie, Jane kind of distances themselves at this

805
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:07,880
Speaker 2: point from them and they I guess, like as like

806
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:10,080
Speaker 2: they were like, oh, it's this strategic necessity, we're going

807
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:12,239
Speaker 2: to keep going, and Jane did keep going while the

808
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:17,320
Speaker 2: trial was ongoing, but it still doesn't sound good to me, honestly,

809
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:21,960
Speaker 2: and Genie at least felt really betrayed. According to the

810
00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:25,760
Speaker 2: interview I read with her, the rest of the feminist

811
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:28,480
Speaker 2: movement kind of though, had her back. There was a

812
00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:31,920
Speaker 2: defense committee formed with the sick name of the Abortion

813
00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:36,319
Speaker 2: Task Force the ATF, and several of the arrestees were

814
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:39,080
Speaker 2: part of an organization called the Leche League, which is

815
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:41,480
Speaker 2: a pro nursing organization. Nursing, I guess was out of

816
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:44,080
Speaker 2: style at the time, and the Leche League had their back,

817
00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:48,040
Speaker 2: which fucking rules that the like the Mother's Association was like, yeah,

818
00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:51,880
Speaker 2: of course we're defending these abortionists, you know. And I

819
00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:54,200
Speaker 2: don't really know what the distancing looked like because several

820
00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:56,120
Speaker 2: of the Abortion seven actually went back to work for

821
00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:58,040
Speaker 2: Jane while they were out on bail, which is also

822
00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:02,120
Speaker 2: fucking badass, and they spent a while finding lawyer. Most

823
00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:04,360
Speaker 2: of the lawyers they found were terrible. One guy was

824
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:06,640
Speaker 2: very movement focused and wanted them to basically go to

825
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:08,560
Speaker 2: prison and was like, yeah, you're gonna be martyrs for

826
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:09,400
Speaker 2: the cause.

827
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:09,319
Speaker 3: You know.

828
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:12,000
Speaker 2: And they're like, we don't like that very much. This

829
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:15,600
Speaker 2: is not actually our plan. And so finally they settled

830
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 2: on joe Ane Wolfson, who one account calls the Queen

831
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:21,719
Speaker 2: of the Hopeless and she once ran away from home

832
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:25,520
Speaker 2: to join the circus and like work with elephants and shit. Okay,

833
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:28,480
Speaker 2: So her brother was an attorney too, who once got

834
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:30,920
Speaker 2: sentenced to seventy years in prison in nineteen eighty five

835
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:33,800
Speaker 2: after pleading guilty to racketeering in an anti corruption case

836
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 2: in Chicago. That's aw a fuck ton of the judges, lawyers,

837
00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:40,640
Speaker 2: and cops sent away for organized crime shit. So okay,

838
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:43,880
Speaker 2: mafia and corruption shit just runs deep in Chicago.

839
00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:45,040
Speaker 3: Yeah.

840
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 2: Anyway, so this is their lawyer and she is the

841
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:51,400
Speaker 2: what I do know about her, she was the right

842
00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:54,439
Speaker 2: lawyer for the job, and she rules. She saw rov

843
00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:57,160
Speaker 2: Wade on the horizon and she was like, all right,

844
00:42:57,560 --> 00:42:59,960
Speaker 2: here's the plan. Let's delay this shit as long as possible.

845
00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:03,000
Speaker 2: And the court was fine with that plan too, because frankly,

846
00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:04,479
Speaker 2: they saw the writing on the wall and they didn't

847
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:07,400
Speaker 2: want to waste court resources on it. So in January

848
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:09,880
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy three, the Supreme Court decided that the Fourteenth

849
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:12,359
Speaker 2: Amendments guarantee of the right to privacy included the right

850
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:14,640
Speaker 2: to have abortions in a very I had my lawyer

851
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:16,760
Speaker 2: friend try and explain this whole thing to me recently,

852
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:20,200
Speaker 2: and Roe v. Wade is like complicated as a from

853
00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:24,200
Speaker 2: a legal perspective, but it worked for now for good.

854
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:27,160
Speaker 2: We'll see maybe but the time you're listening to this anyway. Whatever.

855
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:30,759
Speaker 2: So prosecutors knew if they wanted, they could come after

856
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:33,600
Speaker 2: them for practicing medicine without a license, but they decided

857
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:35,759
Speaker 2: it was more trouble than it was worth, and they

858
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:37,600
Speaker 2: really just didn't want to make a fuss out of it.

859
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:39,960
Speaker 2: That said, also, my lawyer friend was explaining to me

860
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:43,840
Speaker 2: that most Supreme Court decisions are not retroactive. But basically

861
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:45,440
Speaker 2: they're like this shit, as far as I can tell,

862
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:47,080
Speaker 2: they're like, this shit is way too political. We don't

863
00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:49,480
Speaker 2: want to fucking touch this case. So they made they

864
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:51,920
Speaker 2: cut a deal. We don't charge you with practicing medicine

865
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:54,279
Speaker 2: without a license, you don't ask for your medical equipment back,

866
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:57,120
Speaker 2: and the Jane seven said, oh my god, yes please.

867
00:43:57,160 --> 00:44:01,279
Speaker 2: They took their deal and their charges were the end

868
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:03,239
Speaker 2: of Jane that's the name of my little section in

869
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:06,680
Speaker 2: the script. Rovy Wade fucking rules, and I don't want

870
00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:08,680
Speaker 2: to pretend like it doesn't. The fact that it's under

871
00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:10,680
Speaker 2: threat is fucking bad.

872
00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:11,520
Speaker 3: You know.

873
00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:13,680
Speaker 2: I hope that this doesn't sound like we're talking from

874
00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:16,759
Speaker 2: distant utopian past when you all hear this episode come out,

875
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:18,399
Speaker 2: because this episode will probably come out about a month

876
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:22,000
Speaker 2: after we record it. But it's not enough. And the

877
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:24,360
Speaker 2: women of Jane knew that right because abortion was legalized,

878
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:26,320
Speaker 2: but it was also remedicalized. It went back in the

879
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:29,799
Speaker 2: hands of male doctors. It became it tied once again

880
00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:32,720
Speaker 2: into an inaccessible medical system that treats women like bodies

881
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:35,880
Speaker 2: like cars to be fixed. Jane actually continued for a

882
00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:38,239
Speaker 2: few weeks after the ruling, but everyone was just so

883
00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:41,880
Speaker 2: fucking exhausted, burned out, and the fire was gone. And ironically,

884
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:45,360
Speaker 2: they were afraid that they might catch charges for because

885
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:48,040
Speaker 2: the for profit medical industry might lead the charge on

886
00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:51,640
Speaker 2: them for practicing medicine without a license. They threw a

887
00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:55,560
Speaker 2: fuck it were done now party, and Jane was over

888
00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:57,279
Speaker 2: after their fuck it were done now party, which is

889
00:44:57,280 --> 00:45:00,239
Speaker 2: the way I'm raising it, and I like that people

890
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:03,359
Speaker 2: miss the intensity of it. Jane activist Ruth Circle put

891
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:05,719
Speaker 2: it like this. For the people I know, it was

892
00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:08,439
Speaker 2: the single most intense period of our life, and when

893
00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:11,120
Speaker 2: it stopped, there was something missing and you couldn't find

894
00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:13,440
Speaker 2: anything to do that carried quite that energy for a

895
00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:18,359
Speaker 2: long time. But you know what does carry energy is potatoes.

896
00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:22,600
Speaker 2: And you should eat food of some type, whatever type

897
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:27,640
Speaker 2: you like, but it is healthy and good, and that's

898
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:31,920
Speaker 2: why we advertise it on this show, the concept of potato. Yeah,

899
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:36,120
Speaker 2: all potatoes. All potatoes are great as well as whatever's

900
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:43,680
Speaker 2: abby and advertised. And we are back. And so this

901
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:47,800
Speaker 2: this intensity leaving, it's something that I think is familiar

902
00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:49,200
Speaker 2: to a lot of people who are involved in activism,

903
00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:52,600
Speaker 2: especially like more intense activism. I'm guessing that anyone who

904
00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:55,640
Speaker 2: was radicalized by the twenty twenty demonstrations has felt this

905
00:45:56,239 --> 00:46:00,919
Speaker 2: when you leave this moment of intensity. But people keep

906
00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:03,880
Speaker 2: going right. TRM. Howard, the black civil rights leader who

907
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:06,680
Speaker 2: is the first abortionist the network called. He kept providing

908
00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:10,279
Speaker 2: abortions now legally and his private black owned practice offered

909
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:13,160
Speaker 2: abortions for fifty dollars less than what local hospitals charged.

910
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:17,200
Speaker 2: The Defense Committee with that sick name the ATF. They

911
00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:19,360
Speaker 2: switched to becoming a new group that also had a

912
00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:23,360
Speaker 2: sick name, Health Evaluation and Referral Services. Hers. It's a

913
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:27,319
Speaker 2: shitty name, but it's a great acronym. And I feel

914
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:29,279
Speaker 2: like they really, I don't know, they started off with

915
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:32,680
Speaker 2: not strong naming game, but I think that they over

916
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:33,960
Speaker 2: the course of time they figured.

917
00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:35,360
Speaker 3: It out getting there.

918
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:38,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, So Hers and Heather Booth, Jane's founder, they went

919
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:41,720
Speaker 2: on to start the Chicago Abortion Fund in Chicago nineteen

920
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:44,200
Speaker 2: eighty five, which is a nonprofit that is still around

921
00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:47,920
Speaker 2: today and is a simple, clean, honest name that does

922
00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:50,319
Speaker 2: what it says on the tin. And as the host

923
00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:52,520
Speaker 2: of cool people did cool stuff, I appreciate a thing

924
00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:54,839
Speaker 2: that just does what it says on the tin. So

925
00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:56,840
Speaker 2: I want to talk about some of the other direct

926
00:46:56,840 --> 00:47:00,200
Speaker 2: action abortionists who've come since, because this need continues, right

927
00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:02,680
Speaker 2: and there are millions of people who've done this kind

928
00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:04,760
Speaker 2: of work. Probably as long as there's been legal restrictions

929
00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:06,719
Speaker 2: on abortion, there have been people fighting against it. You

930
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:08,600
Speaker 2: talked about some of them actually at the beginning of

931
00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:10,279
Speaker 2: the show, and I'm hoping you chime in with more

932
00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:12,759
Speaker 2: of them as I go through some of these And

933
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:14,840
Speaker 2: I want to do more episodes about more of these people,

934
00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:17,520
Speaker 2: or I think people can listen to other podcasts that

935
00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:22,719
Speaker 2: talk about it too. So normally I stick with people

936
00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:24,320
Speaker 2: in the past for this show, but this issue just

937
00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:26,480
Speaker 2: feels too important to me right now to not include

938
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:28,600
Speaker 2: some of these. So there's Women on Waves, which is

939
00:47:28,719 --> 00:47:31,640
Speaker 2: a Dutch organization that was started by the physician Rebecca

940
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:34,200
Speaker 2: Gombert's in nineteen ninety nine. And she used to be

941
00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:36,160
Speaker 2: the ship's doctor aboard a green piece ship and she

942
00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:39,319
Speaker 2: was like, oh, boats are fucking cool, which is my paraphrasing,

943
00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:41,680
Speaker 2: not a direct quote. So she got a boat and

944
00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:44,520
Speaker 2: she headed out to various countries with restrictive abortion practices.

945
00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:46,920
Speaker 2: She loads up patients on shore heads twenty miles out

946
00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:49,200
Speaker 2: to sea, and since it's Dutch ship, Dutch laws and

947
00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:51,799
Speaker 2: effect though even the Dutch are a little wary about

948
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:53,480
Speaker 2: the whole thing, and the ship is only authorized to

949
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:57,520
Speaker 2: provide the abortion pill non surgical abortions to pregnancies up

950
00:47:57,560 --> 00:48:00,319
Speaker 2: to nine weeks. And they don't just provide abortion, they

951
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:04,400
Speaker 2: provide education, contraception and education. And the first place they

952
00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:07,040
Speaker 2: go is Ireland because you don't have to go very

953
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:08,759
Speaker 2: far from the Netherlands to go to a country that

954
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:12,000
Speaker 2: had terrible abortion laws in two thousand and one. Ironically,

955
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:14,959
Speaker 2: Ireland is liberalizing its abortion laws just as the US

956
00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:18,759
Speaker 2: is regressing. And this boat is super contentious. And also

957
00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:20,719
Speaker 2: it's contentious when you tell people who have ships that

958
00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:23,759
Speaker 2: they're called boats, because they don't like that. They like

959
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:25,400
Speaker 2: to be like, this is a ship, not a boat.

960
00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:28,600
Speaker 2: But I think it's funny because boat is a cuter name.

961
00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:32,319
Speaker 2: So Portugal blocks women on waves from approaching with a

962
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:35,759
Speaker 2: fucking warship, and then in Guatemala they make it less

963
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:37,799
Speaker 2: than a day before a warship comes and pushes them

964
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:41,399
Speaker 2: out to sea. And oh, and you actually were talking

965
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:44,720
Speaker 2: about Poland earlier. Women on waves once flew a drone

966
00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:48,480
Speaker 2: carrying abortion pills into Germany from Poland. In case anyone

967
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:55,040
Speaker 2: needs any ideas, maybe and Rebecca Gomperts goes on in

968
00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:57,360
Speaker 2: twenty eighteen to form a nonprofit called aid Access that

969
00:48:57,360 --> 00:48:59,840
Speaker 2: focuses on helping pregnant people self manage their own abortions

970
00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:02,840
Speaker 2: with abortion pills, which are generally a combination of I

971
00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:04,640
Speaker 2: don't know how to pronounce these words. I'm terribly sorry.

972
00:49:04,719 --> 00:49:08,759
Speaker 2: Maybe you do, MiFi, prestone and mysoposatol. These are the

973
00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:11,520
Speaker 2: primary abortion pills that people are taking right now to

974
00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:15,120
Speaker 2: end first trimester abortions and sending them through the mail

975
00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:17,360
Speaker 2: in the US and to other countries that are increasingly

976
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:20,880
Speaker 2: criminalizing abortion, and they field at about fifty thousand requests

977
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:23,960
Speaker 2: in the first year that they were operational. At least

978
00:49:24,239 --> 00:49:27,319
Speaker 2: one organization is bulletproofing vans getting ready to help people

979
00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:29,839
Speaker 2: safely leave Texas to get to states where they can

980
00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:32,120
Speaker 2: get the healthcare they need. They're like park getting ready

981
00:49:32,160 --> 00:49:35,240
Speaker 2: to park the vans right outside the border of Texas.

982
00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:39,440
Speaker 2: And frankly, what isn't legal doesn't dictate what is and

983
00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:42,719
Speaker 2: isn't safe. Right During the fifty years we've had Roe v.

984
00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:45,799
Speaker 2: Wade in the US, abortion workers have regularly risked and

985
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:48,600
Speaker 2: sometimes lost their lives in order to help people terminate

986
00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:52,480
Speaker 2: unwanted pregnancies. Receptionists, security guards, and clinic escorts have all

987
00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:58,080
Speaker 2: been murdered, kidnapped, to attack, threatened, you name it. And

988
00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:00,520
Speaker 2: one of the reasons I bring that up ending on

989
00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:02,839
Speaker 2: this kind of darker note, but one of the reasons

990
00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:04,520
Speaker 2: I bring that up is because we can have this

991
00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:07,360
Speaker 2: concept that direct action abortion can only happen when it's illegal,

992
00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:12,319
Speaker 2: and that's just not true. Like I don't know. In

993
00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:14,200
Speaker 2: one southern city I lived in, there were for years

994
00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:18,200
Speaker 2: there were no clinic escorts because the people and clinic escorts,

995
00:50:18,239 --> 00:50:19,879
Speaker 2: for anyone who doesn't know, are the people who wait

996
00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:22,359
Speaker 2: outside of clinic and shield patients from the abuse from

997
00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:25,040
Speaker 2: anti choice protesters. And there are no clinic escorts in

998
00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:26,839
Speaker 2: this town because all the escorts have been followed home

999
00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:29,719
Speaker 2: and had their windows shot out. And my sister does

1000
00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:32,439
Speaker 2: clinic escorting, and I just want to shout her out.

1001
00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:34,400
Speaker 2: She's a direct action hero from my point of view.

1002
00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:37,799
Speaker 2: Even if what she's doing is legal, you know, still

1003
00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:41,040
Speaker 2: a risk. Yeah, totally. I only did it once. It

1004
00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:43,640
Speaker 2: was a long time ago in Louisville, Kentucky. And basically,

1005
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:46,360
Speaker 2: as I understood it, I was told by the punks

1006
00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:48,879
Speaker 2: in town. They were like, the anti choice protesters here

1007
00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:51,640
Speaker 2: are like really scary, So they want the scary punks

1008
00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:56,480
Speaker 2: to come be the clinic escorts, you know, because like normally,

1009
00:50:56,480 --> 00:50:58,200
Speaker 2: if you don't have really bad protesters, you kind of

1010
00:50:58,200 --> 00:51:01,439
Speaker 2: don't want the scary people to come to like help

1011
00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:04,839
Speaker 2: escort people in. But when people are really threatening, then

1012
00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:07,799
Speaker 2: you call the really threatening looking people, which when I

1013
00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:09,719
Speaker 2: was twenty I was a very threatening looking person just

1014
00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:10,920
Speaker 2: by being a punk.

1015
00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:13,080
Speaker 1: I love it.

1016
00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:15,640
Speaker 3: I love that that's the threat. It's like I'm a punk,

1017
00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:16,279
Speaker 3: that's right, come.

1018
00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:19,120
Speaker 2: On, yeah, yeah yeah. And we were all like full

1019
00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:21,600
Speaker 2: of ourselves, like twenty year old anarchists who are like,

1020
00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:25,200
Speaker 2: we'll do anything, you know, And the world needs lots

1021
00:51:25,239 --> 00:51:28,640
Speaker 2: of angry twenty year olds. Also, unfortunately, it also needs

1022
00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:30,200
Speaker 2: a lot of the angry twenty year olds to stop.

1023
00:51:30,239 --> 00:51:32,000
Speaker 2: It depends on what they're angry about, really.

1024
00:51:32,600 --> 00:51:34,920
Speaker 3: Right, I mean, just a reminder, I mean, I just

1025
00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:37,560
Speaker 3: want to put this also sad little fact in here.

1026
00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:40,560
Speaker 3: Even after a Row versus weighed in the Supreme Court

1027
00:51:40,600 --> 00:51:43,040
Speaker 3: in nineteen seventy seven, we had the High Amendment, which

1028
00:51:43,080 --> 00:51:46,760
Speaker 3: is still in place and has never gone away, which

1029
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:52,399
Speaker 3: restricts funds for healthcare and access, which means pretty much

1030
00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:56,719
Speaker 3: is a very classist and racist amendment making sure those

1031
00:51:56,719 --> 00:51:58,880
Speaker 3: who really probably are the ones that need it and

1032
00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:01,200
Speaker 3: need this help and need this choice are the ones

1033
00:52:01,239 --> 00:52:06,920
Speaker 3: that can't get access to safe abortion and safe reproductive

1034
00:52:06,960 --> 00:52:09,880
Speaker 3: care in general. And then that has always been in

1035
00:52:09,880 --> 00:52:12,560
Speaker 3: place and it has not been removed, and it has

1036
00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:14,880
Speaker 3: not even come close to being removed and could have

1037
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:18,600
Speaker 3: been and should have been by some administrations. But that's

1038
00:52:18,640 --> 00:52:23,000
Speaker 3: something to remember to Yeah, but that's part of the

1039
00:52:23,040 --> 00:52:26,040
Speaker 3: problem is we have other things that yeah, sure, now

1040
00:52:26,080 --> 00:52:30,920
Speaker 3: we have supposedly, yeah, we supposedly have the right to

1041
00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:34,239
Speaker 3: do so, but we don't have access to do so.

1042
00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:37,680
Speaker 3: And that's a conversation we need to have in pretending

1043
00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:40,719
Speaker 3: like it's actually free and it's not or not actually free,

1044
00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:44,279
Speaker 3: that it's actually accessible and it's not, and who that

1045
00:52:44,480 --> 00:52:48,000
Speaker 3: truly affects and why it's such a bigger conversation, as

1046
00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:50,560
Speaker 3: well as the fact that the gag rule exists, which

1047
00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:54,279
Speaker 3: Title ten came in trying to help out to get

1048
00:52:54,280 --> 00:52:56,520
Speaker 3: those funds, and then we have the gag rules saying

1049
00:52:56,520 --> 00:52:59,840
Speaker 3: like well, nah, I guess individuals can choose this. So

1050
00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:03,600
Speaker 3: it gets so convoluted and there's so many policies and

1051
00:53:03,640 --> 00:53:07,400
Speaker 3: amendments on top of each other that it becomes almost

1052
00:53:07,520 --> 00:53:10,920
Speaker 3: impossible to know what is accessible and what is legal.

1053
00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:14,920
Speaker 3: And yeah, just because it's not legal doesn't mean you

1054
00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:17,239
Speaker 3: can't get it, yeah, or you should be. But like,

1055
00:53:17,360 --> 00:53:20,839
Speaker 3: that's this whole conversation in this bigger picture of like

1056
00:53:21,040 --> 00:53:24,240
Speaker 3: we're coming back to the basics. Unfortunately, but we because

1057
00:53:24,239 --> 00:53:28,360
Speaker 3: we were never unable to unravel the details that really

1058
00:53:29,760 --> 00:53:33,360
Speaker 3: bind us. For those who want to get that ability,

1059
00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:36,680
Speaker 3: they just have a choice. And again, reproductive care is

1060
00:53:36,719 --> 00:53:39,960
Speaker 3: not just an abortion, Like, there's just a whole bigger

1061
00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:43,759
Speaker 3: conversation once again, the fact that the co morbidity for

1062
00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:48,040
Speaker 3: black women is higher, Like, it's just there's so many

1063
00:53:48,040 --> 00:53:52,200
Speaker 3: conversations and what these policies are and who they truly affect,

1064
00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:58,239
Speaker 3: and why these policies are in place. It's by its supremacy, patriarchy,

1065
00:53:58,520 --> 00:54:01,359
Speaker 3: those things the reason we can keep harping on these two,

1066
00:54:01,800 --> 00:54:04,200
Speaker 3: these three words, and people get pissed off about it,

1067
00:54:04,200 --> 00:54:07,040
Speaker 3: and he goes, it's true, Yeah, there's no other I'm sorry.

1068
00:54:07,120 --> 00:54:09,600
Speaker 3: I'm sorry that bothers you and that you've been benefiting

1069
00:54:09,600 --> 00:54:11,880
Speaker 3: from that. Fuck you is still true.

1070
00:54:12,120 --> 00:54:17,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I may have finished. No, no, no, I incredibly,

1071
00:54:17,360 --> 00:54:19,319
Speaker 2: this is part of why I'm really excited that you're

1072
00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:23,440
Speaker 2: the guest for this is the High Amendment. Is that

1073
00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:26,759
Speaker 2: the thing where like I know that like at least

1074
00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:29,360
Speaker 2: for a while, there was like only one abortion clinic

1075
00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:32,319
Speaker 2: in Kentucky, and it was because you weren't allowed to

1076
00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:36,200
Speaker 2: have an abortion clinics, hallways must be exactly and I'm

1077
00:54:36,200 --> 00:54:38,719
Speaker 2: making this number up thirty one inches wide, whereas a

1078
00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:41,400
Speaker 2: normal clinic has to have thirty three inch wide things.

1079
00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:43,000
Speaker 2: And so they would do this shit where you like,

1080
00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:46,600
Speaker 2: cannot have any a clinic that is anything other than

1081
00:54:46,600 --> 00:54:49,279
Speaker 2: an abortion clinic, which means that it is entirely financially

1082
00:54:50,360 --> 00:54:51,600
Speaker 2: unstable and impossible.

1083
00:54:51,719 --> 00:54:54,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, it starts stripping things. Essentially, the High Amendment really

1084
00:54:54,680 --> 00:54:58,640
Speaker 3: took away the funding, so any public funding could not

1085
00:54:58,719 --> 00:55:03,279
Speaker 3: go into it had accessibility to. So if you say, yes,

1086
00:55:03,360 --> 00:55:08,560
Speaker 3: we offer abortion care, then you're automatically stripped of it.

1087
00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:13,080
Speaker 3: You cannot get government funds okay, period. So any kind

1088
00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:16,160
Speaker 3: of like services that would take Medicaid and made a

1089
00:55:16,239 --> 00:55:20,080
Speaker 3: care you cann't go to their and get abortion because

1090
00:55:20,080 --> 00:55:24,920
Speaker 3: that was restricted for government funds. So like, it absolutely

1091
00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:27,200
Speaker 3: was a classist law, yeah.

1092
00:55:26,760 --> 00:55:29,520
Speaker 2: Which just continues the previous status quo where the rich

1093
00:55:29,640 --> 00:55:31,760
Speaker 2: have access to reproductive health and then.

1094
00:55:32,160 --> 00:55:34,600
Speaker 3: And it's so sneaky. It's so sneaky because people don't

1095
00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:36,880
Speaker 3: know about it much. They really think they have access

1096
00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:38,160
Speaker 3: because it's a liberal state.

1097
00:55:38,239 --> 00:55:42,960
Speaker 2: But High Amendment, Yeah, reproductive care is so much more

1098
00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:44,920
Speaker 2: than you as you said, reproductive care is so much

1099
00:55:44,920 --> 00:55:47,120
Speaker 2: more than an abortion, and like a lot of it

1100
00:55:47,160 --> 00:55:51,040
Speaker 2: is also about like the ability to choose to have children, right.

1101
00:55:51,440 --> 00:55:56,239
Speaker 3: Right, people who have children. This is a high risk

1102
00:55:56,400 --> 00:55:59,840
Speaker 3: thing for many, many people, and they need that care.

1103
00:56:00,840 --> 00:56:04,920
Speaker 3: And there's a reason why people died in childbirth and

1104
00:56:04,960 --> 00:56:09,040
Speaker 3: it shouldn't have to be because there are advancements that

1105
00:56:09,080 --> 00:56:12,440
Speaker 3: can prevent that. But people can't afford that. Like that,

1106
00:56:12,440 --> 00:56:15,320
Speaker 3: that in itself is that conversation, and we don't actually

1107
00:56:15,360 --> 00:56:19,440
Speaker 3: care about those who are giving birth, like to make

1108
00:56:19,480 --> 00:56:22,000
Speaker 3: sure they're healthy. That's not pro life.

1109
00:56:22,520 --> 00:56:26,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, totally. The hypocrisy of all that stuff can

1110
00:56:26,600 --> 00:56:29,200
Speaker 2: like keep me up at nights sometimes because I try

1111
00:56:29,200 --> 00:56:31,320
Speaker 2: to have empathy with people I disagree with, and it

1112
00:56:31,920 --> 00:56:35,239
Speaker 2: short circuits my empathy because I can't understand it because

1113
00:56:35,280 --> 00:56:38,440
Speaker 2: it makes no fucking sense that you're like claiming to

1114
00:56:38,480 --> 00:56:40,560
Speaker 2: be you know, this one thing and then you just

1115
00:56:40,560 --> 00:56:42,680
Speaker 2: don't give a shit about people when they actually have children,

1116
00:56:42,719 --> 00:56:43,240
Speaker 2: And like.

1117
00:56:43,840 --> 00:56:47,240
Speaker 3: I love that. That's why you quoted that doctor from

1118
00:56:47,520 --> 00:56:51,239
Speaker 3: what was the Kentucky Pennsylvania Well, yeah, that's the same.

1119
00:56:51,320 --> 00:56:55,000
Speaker 3: I'm just kidding Pennsylvania because it just seeing their perspective

1120
00:56:55,040 --> 00:56:57,600
Speaker 3: that that is the true point of it, and this

1121
00:56:57,680 --> 00:57:01,440
Speaker 3: conversation of a late term of abortions. A majority of

1122
00:57:01,440 --> 00:57:04,560
Speaker 3: the people who are having late term abortions are not

1123
00:57:04,680 --> 00:57:10,960
Speaker 3: by choice. Typically, they have been preparing for their child.

1124
00:57:11,200 --> 00:57:14,360
Speaker 3: And I know many of people who were anti choice

1125
00:57:14,400 --> 00:57:16,160
Speaker 3: for the longest time when they had to be put

1126
00:57:16,240 --> 00:57:19,280
Speaker 3: in that situation and understanding, oh, this is still technically

1127
00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:26,960
Speaker 3: an abortion, they may have different terms for it, realizing that, oh,

1128
00:57:27,000 --> 00:57:30,880
Speaker 3: and then costing thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars,

1129
00:57:31,120 --> 00:57:34,040
Speaker 3: putting their lives at risk. Coming back to being pro choice,

1130
00:57:34,040 --> 00:57:37,320
Speaker 3: realizing what this conversation and what these types of laws

1131
00:57:37,360 --> 00:57:40,880
Speaker 3: really hurt and who they really hurt, and how damaging

1132
00:57:41,120 --> 00:57:47,080
Speaker 3: it is because there's this mystic religious moral background that

1133
00:57:47,200 --> 00:57:51,560
Speaker 3: when order to demoralize and demonize those who even talk

1134
00:57:51,640 --> 00:57:53,120
Speaker 3: about it as an option.

1135
00:57:53,920 --> 00:57:57,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, the moral crusaders are just being used as useful

1136
00:57:57,120 --> 00:57:58,959
Speaker 2: idiots by people who want to do this other shit

1137
00:57:59,000 --> 00:58:01,400
Speaker 2: and they like yet people riled up into being like

1138
00:58:01,480 --> 00:58:03,400
Speaker 2: this is what is moral, and they're like okay, and

1139
00:58:03,400 --> 00:58:04,800
Speaker 2: you run off and go do the thing, and like

1140
00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:06,920
Speaker 2: that's not what the people controlling those people and give

1141
00:58:06,920 --> 00:58:07,960
Speaker 2: a shit about any of that stuff.

1142
00:58:07,960 --> 00:58:08,800
Speaker 3: This is not about that.

1143
00:58:09,360 --> 00:58:12,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they're just you're being used if you made

1144
00:58:12,200 --> 00:58:17,800
Speaker 2: it this far and you're you're a moral anti Yeah,

1145
00:58:18,240 --> 00:58:18,680
Speaker 2: you're just.

1146
00:58:19,000 --> 00:58:21,760
Speaker 3: In the first episode. Yeah, we're a bit. We're on

1147
00:58:21,800 --> 00:58:25,600
Speaker 3: this length, so you know, they know, Yeah, y'all know, right,

1148
00:58:26,480 --> 00:58:28,600
Speaker 3: But yes, thank you so much for bringing this because

1149
00:58:28,640 --> 00:58:31,439
Speaker 3: I love talking about the history. I definitely learned more

1150
00:58:31,520 --> 00:58:33,280
Speaker 3: because I was like, what what is that? Things I

1151
00:58:33,320 --> 00:58:35,000
Speaker 3: didn't want to know and things I didn't want to know,

1152
00:58:35,080 --> 00:58:36,680
Speaker 3: So thank you for giving me that blend.

1153
00:58:37,480 --> 00:58:40,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, I yeah, I was realizing. I was like,

1154
00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:42,000
Speaker 2: this is a thing that some people know a lot

1155
00:58:42,040 --> 00:58:43,840
Speaker 2: about and some people don't know about it all. And like,

1156
00:58:43,880 --> 00:58:46,120
Speaker 2: I'm really excited that more and more information is coming

1157
00:58:46,120 --> 00:58:48,120
Speaker 2: forward and people are coming more and more aware about

1158
00:58:48,560 --> 00:58:50,560
Speaker 2: Jaine Collective and all of the people who've done this

1159
00:58:50,640 --> 00:58:53,280
Speaker 2: kind of work, because like, because we fucking need it,

1160
00:58:53,360 --> 00:58:55,480
Speaker 2: and and we've already said that a bunch of times

1161
00:58:55,480 --> 00:58:58,000
Speaker 2: on the show, but it just it feels worth repeating,

1162
00:58:58,120 --> 00:58:59,960
Speaker 2: is that, like we need to know that we can

1163
00:59:00,040 --> 00:59:02,360
Speaker 2: and like be brave and do the right thing, you know,

1164
00:59:02,480 --> 00:59:04,919
Speaker 2: and we need to know that the means by which

1165
00:59:04,960 --> 00:59:08,520
Speaker 2: to do it, do the right thing. We can have

1166
00:59:08,600 --> 00:59:14,040
Speaker 2: those means, we can figure that out, you know. So yeah, well, well,

1167
00:59:14,040 --> 00:59:17,840
Speaker 2: thank you so much for coming on and being a guest.

1168
00:59:19,000 --> 00:59:20,320
Speaker 3: I have a new best friend.

1169
00:59:20,720 --> 00:59:23,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, well so many new best friends also because all

1170
00:59:23,120 --> 00:59:25,000
Speaker 2: the listeners. But I want to be more of the

1171
00:59:25,040 --> 00:59:27,200
Speaker 2: best friend than them.

1172
00:59:27,280 --> 00:59:28,880
Speaker 1: Any any plugs at the end here?

1173
00:59:30,440 --> 00:59:32,280
Speaker 3: Like I said on the last episode, which I hope

1174
00:59:32,280 --> 00:59:34,280
Speaker 3: you listened to and you stayed around for the second part,

1175
00:59:34,560 --> 00:59:38,520
Speaker 3: I'm on stuff. Mom never told you a podcast with iHeartRadio.

1176
00:59:39,200 --> 00:59:41,680
Speaker 3: You can get it wherever you listen to your podcast.

1177
00:59:42,080 --> 00:59:46,920
Speaker 3: We are on Instagram and on Twitter. We don't type.

1178
00:59:47,040 --> 00:59:49,360
Speaker 3: We don't type. Is that this is how old I am.

1179
00:59:49,920 --> 00:59:51,760
Speaker 3: We don't post a lot. I don't type things on

1180
00:59:51,840 --> 00:59:54,640
Speaker 3: there a lot, but we're there and we love getting messages.

1181
00:59:55,600 --> 00:59:58,919
Speaker 3: I'm also on the social media's obviously not very good

1182
00:59:58,920 --> 01:00:03,360
Speaker 3: at it on Instagram with McVeigh Sam and Twitter Sam

1183
01:00:03,440 --> 01:00:07,640
Speaker 3: McVeigh because that's how creative I am.

1184
01:00:08,160 --> 01:00:09,640
Speaker 2: And you can see pictures of her dog.

1185
01:00:10,160 --> 01:00:12,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, that's pretty much all it is pictures of

1186
01:00:12,920 --> 01:00:15,200
Speaker 3: my dog. So if you like that, come on.

1187
01:00:15,320 --> 01:00:17,880
Speaker 1: Check it out and then we'll be back next week

1188
01:00:18,280 --> 01:00:23,080
Speaker 1: on Monday and Wednesday. All right, Margaret yay wherever.

1189
01:00:24,760 --> 01:00:34,240
Speaker 2: Talk to you all soon. Bye everyone, Bye listeners. Cool

1190
01:00:34,320 --> 01:00:35,120
Speaker 2: People Who.

1191
01:00:34,960 --> 01:00:37,480
Speaker 1: Did Cool Stuff is a production of cool Zone Media.

1192
01:00:37,800 --> 01:00:40,640
Speaker 1: For more podcasts on cool Zone Media, visit our website

1193
01:00:40,800 --> 01:00:43,440
Speaker 1: cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the

1194
01:00:43,560 --> 01:00:48,600
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.