WEBVTT - Can We Fix the Hiring Process, Already? 0:00:00.600 --> 0:00:04.200 From executive search to talent strategy, leadership development, rewards and 0:00:04.200 --> 0:00:06.880 succession planning. Corn Fairy can help you realize the full 0:00:06.880 --> 0:00:09.879 potential of your people so you can take your business 0:00:09.920 --> 0:00:12.520 where it wants to go up. Learn more at corn 0:00:12.560 --> 0:00:26.759 Ferry dot com slash up. Welcome to game Plan, a 0:00:26.840 --> 0:00:29.800 show about our lives at work. I'm Sam Grobard, a 0:00:29.840 --> 0:00:33.480 reporter for Business Week and professional working person, and I'm 0:00:33.479 --> 0:00:37.040 Rebecca Greenfield, a reporter for Bloomberg, where I cover workplace culture. 0:00:37.720 --> 0:00:41.000 This week, we're talking about the horrible, no fun process 0:00:41.200 --> 0:00:44.199 of applying for jobs. A little later, we're going to 0:00:44.240 --> 0:00:46.640 talk to Karen Snyder. Karen's a linguist who's trying to 0:00:46.640 --> 0:00:50.239 fix that situation. But first, let's just talk about everything 0:00:50.280 --> 0:00:53.440 that's wrong with the hiring process. Yeah, applying for jobs 0:00:53.680 --> 0:00:56.639 is horrible. It's effectively, I think a system we can 0:00:56.640 --> 0:00:59.440 describe as broken. Yeah, especially now with a lot of 0:00:59.440 --> 0:01:03.319 the online in job application sites, it does feel like 0:01:03.520 --> 0:01:07.600 you're sending your resume into a black hole that immediately 0:01:07.640 --> 0:01:10.800 will be incinerated. Absolutely, And this is also true I 0:01:10.840 --> 0:01:13.160 think probably on the employer side as well. I mean, 0:01:13.360 --> 0:01:15.200 you know, when you talk to employers and you read 0:01:15.200 --> 0:01:17.039 about it, they seem to have a lot of difficulty 0:01:17.080 --> 0:01:20.920 finding the right people. So something's really gone amok here 0:01:21.080 --> 0:01:23.720 if you have applicants not really feeling like they're finding 0:01:23.720 --> 0:01:26.320 the right jobs and employers feeling like they're not finding 0:01:26.360 --> 0:01:29.440 the right applicants. Yeah, and everything, all the whole process 0:01:29.480 --> 0:01:32.560 in between is unpleasant for everybody. So, like on the 0:01:32.600 --> 0:01:36.520 applicant side, even if somebody does read your cover letter 0:01:36.640 --> 0:01:40.680 or your resume, like one small thing can disqualify you, 0:01:40.840 --> 0:01:42.880 and it might be something that you had no idea 0:01:43.040 --> 0:01:45.200 was even something that was wrong with the hiring process. 0:01:45.400 --> 0:01:49.800 Let's let's talk about some of those potential disqualifies. So, actually, 0:01:49.840 --> 0:01:52.920 one of the most popular posts um Bloomberg since I've 0:01:52.920 --> 0:01:55.200 been working here, I didn't write it. A former colleague, 0:01:55.280 --> 0:01:59.080 Natalie kidter Off, wrote it about the best and worst 0:01:59.120 --> 0:02:03.160 fonts for your resume? So could it could throw the 0:02:03.160 --> 0:02:05.520 whole thing? Yeah? What fun am I supposed to be 0:02:05.600 --> 0:02:09.880 using hell Vetico as a popular choice? Very hip? What 0:02:09.960 --> 0:02:11.959 am I not supposed to be used? I mean, obviously 0:02:12.000 --> 0:02:16.160 comics hands but even times New Roman. Oh, your your 0:02:16.160 --> 0:02:19.240 resumes in comics, it's always been in comics. Well, it's 0:02:19.320 --> 0:02:24.080 working for you. Yeah, I'm gonna bring a cookie vibe 0:02:24.120 --> 0:02:27.120 to your office. You're the comics hands of Business Week report. 0:02:27.120 --> 0:02:29.640 Here there we go. But yeah, even times New Roman. 0:02:29.680 --> 0:02:32.480 I think some people in the article liked it, that 0:02:32.560 --> 0:02:34.720 it was fined, and some people thought it was offensive, 0:02:34.760 --> 0:02:37.880 and how are you supposed to know? It's ridiculous. And 0:02:37.880 --> 0:02:39.560 then there's the length of your I mean, there's the 0:02:39.560 --> 0:02:43.200 cover letter itself. Should you even have a cover letter? Right? So, 0:02:43.280 --> 0:02:44.919 you and I have talked about this. We both are 0:02:45.000 --> 0:02:48.840 kind of anti I feel like the more you have 0:02:48.919 --> 0:02:51.640 in the cover letter, the less you have to say 0:02:51.720 --> 0:02:54.480 for yourself. In some way, it's like your resume pretty 0:02:54.560 --> 0:02:56.760 much should do the job. I feel like the cover 0:02:56.840 --> 0:02:59.480 letter these days, in many cases, it's just the email 0:03:00.280 --> 0:03:02.760 that you've attached your resume to, and the email might 0:03:02.760 --> 0:03:05.600 just say nothing more than here's my resume. Yeah that's 0:03:05.639 --> 0:03:07.799 been my move. But we also work in a more 0:03:07.840 --> 0:03:10.600 informal field. That's true. It's not like a law firm, 0:03:11.200 --> 0:03:13.320 which I think is has a very specific rules for 0:03:13.400 --> 0:03:15.440 the kind of cover letters. Well, I guess in a 0:03:15.480 --> 0:03:18.359 way then that makes things a little easier because those 0:03:18.440 --> 0:03:21.240 rules can be known, they can be passed along and 0:03:21.280 --> 0:03:23.799 you can sort of just function within them. It's it's 0:03:23.919 --> 0:03:25.799 in fact, when everything is supposed to be kind of 0:03:25.840 --> 0:03:28.799 loosey goosey and it's up to you and nobody wants 0:03:28.840 --> 0:03:30.360 to say what they should or shouldn't do, that you 0:03:30.400 --> 0:03:32.320 kind of are left going, yeah, but please actually just 0:03:32.360 --> 0:03:34.560 tell me. Yeah. I think that's called like the tyranny 0:03:34.560 --> 0:03:38.600 of structurelessness or something like that, because it's sort of 0:03:38.640 --> 0:03:41.200 a fraud, right, because there are things that you probably 0:03:41.200 --> 0:03:43.320 should or shouldn't be doing, but nobody wants to come 0:03:43.360 --> 0:03:45.960 across as being so dogmatic as to say that you 0:03:46.000 --> 0:03:48.920 should or shouldn't write and and try hard or I 0:03:48.920 --> 0:03:51.120 don't know where do you come down on resume length? 0:03:51.280 --> 0:03:53.200 This is always an issue that I talked about with people. 0:03:53.520 --> 0:03:57.280 I have a one pager me too, I've had I've 0:03:57.280 --> 0:04:00.400 been in the workforce six years or so. It seems 0:04:00.400 --> 0:04:04.480 like a one page amount of time. Also, people are 0:04:04.520 --> 0:04:06.320 just glancing at your resume, so if you have the 0:04:06.360 --> 0:04:09.040 second page where your most important work experiences, they're not 0:04:09.080 --> 0:04:11.280 even going to see it. I have been in the 0:04:11.320 --> 0:04:14.600 workforce for twenty years and I also have a one 0:04:14.600 --> 0:04:18.600 page resume because I like, you feel like there's no 0:04:18.640 --> 0:04:21.560 reason anybody ever needs. I'm not like a physician, Like 0:04:21.600 --> 0:04:25.640 I'm not like having like published articles exactly. Um, yeah 0:04:25.680 --> 0:04:27.679 I should. We should just put links to every single 0:04:27.760 --> 0:04:32.880 article we've written out. It's very important that it is. Yes, no, 0:04:33.000 --> 0:04:35.400 And I've actually started taking jobs off my resume. Things 0:04:35.440 --> 0:04:38.200 that are so long ago. Is well, there are definitely 0:04:38.200 --> 0:04:41.679 some experiences that I didn't really enjoy and we're maybe 0:04:41.720 --> 0:04:46.479 brief for that very reason, and so it doesn't really matter, 0:04:46.640 --> 0:04:49.800 and they were so long ago so that it really 0:04:49.839 --> 0:04:52.400 it's like something that's twelve years ago that was for 0:04:52.440 --> 0:04:55.719 six months, pretty inconsequential. And since I am trying to 0:04:55.800 --> 0:04:58.719 keep my resume to one page, take it off. Yeah, 0:04:58.760 --> 0:05:01.440 that one gets eighty six. I know everybody makes fun 0:05:01.480 --> 0:05:04.880 of LinkedIn for being useless, but actually, in this case, 0:05:05.040 --> 0:05:08.080 it kind of can be somewhere you can put other stuff. 0:05:08.640 --> 0:05:11.240 Obviously they're going to google you. The hiring manager is 0:05:11.279 --> 0:05:13.960 going to look at your LinkedIn page. Yes, you can 0:05:14.000 --> 0:05:16.680 expect that to be the case. Yeah, So really all 0:05:16.720 --> 0:05:19.040 of this stuff is just it's kind of formalities that 0:05:19.080 --> 0:05:21.120 waste so much time, and I think once you talked 0:05:21.120 --> 0:05:23.839 to a person, the process doesn't seem as broken to me, 0:05:24.040 --> 0:05:26.280 it's kind of like, oh, we all know Jus and 0:05:26.360 --> 0:05:28.400 done some interviews, and you kind of know when an 0:05:28.400 --> 0:05:31.360 interview went well, and you know that you're like at 0:05:31.400 --> 0:05:35.240 least being considered for our position. So yeah, we've both 0:05:35.279 --> 0:05:37.440 been working for some time now, and I think that 0:05:37.480 --> 0:05:40.200 it's fair to say that if we were heaven for 0:05:40.279 --> 0:05:43.120 friend to get a new job somewhere, it would it 0:05:43.160 --> 0:05:45.880 wouldn't be through a particularly formal process. It would be 0:05:45.920 --> 0:05:48.320 through a social network. It would be through our friends 0:05:48.360 --> 0:05:50.479 and through our colleagues and through our former colleagues and 0:05:50.520 --> 0:05:54.120 so forth, and so you wouldn't even necessarily have this process. 0:05:54.160 --> 0:05:56.520 But if you are trying to break into an industry 0:05:56.680 --> 0:05:59.560 or even just get started, you are going to encounter 0:05:59.640 --> 0:06:02.479 these formalities. Yeah. I remember when I was applying for 0:06:02.600 --> 0:06:06.840 my first job, which was a fellowship at the Atlantic magazine. 0:06:07.200 --> 0:06:10.080 I had to apply again to and there was an 0:06:10.080 --> 0:06:13.040 online system even at that time, and it felt like 0:06:13.480 --> 0:06:16.760 sending something into a void, and when somebody responded to me, 0:06:17.160 --> 0:06:20.719 I really felt like magic or like a miracle, or 0:06:20.720 --> 0:06:23.080 like how did I get chosen? This is crazy, like 0:06:23.120 --> 0:06:26.359 winning the Hamilton's lottery. I don't I don't think anybody 0:06:26.360 --> 0:06:30.520 actually wins. Nobody actually goes yes. Um. And I found 0:06:30.800 --> 0:06:34.360 my cover letter that I had sent and it's just 0:06:34.680 --> 0:06:38.200 so embarrassing and still did. They had given us a prompt, 0:06:38.320 --> 0:06:41.880 which I think at that time journalism was very much 0:06:41.960 --> 0:06:44.680 in this phase of like, technology is coming, what are 0:06:44.680 --> 0:06:48.919 we going to do? Yeah, And the prompt was something 0:06:48.960 --> 0:06:51.400 like that. And in the first sentence, I have it 0:06:51.560 --> 0:06:54.960 right here in the computer, I used the word renders, 0:06:55.600 --> 0:06:58.760 which probably shouldn't use in a cover letter unless you're 0:06:58.800 --> 0:07:06.440 applying to a thought rendering facility renders obsolete. Perhaps it's 0:07:06.480 --> 0:07:09.479 just like I am writing a cover letter. Can we 0:07:09.520 --> 0:07:12.000 just get a couple of sentences here? I just want 0:07:12.000 --> 0:07:14.240 to get a sense of what we're talking about, even 0:07:14.280 --> 0:07:19.200 as technology I can't do. Okay, even as technology renders 0:07:19.240 --> 0:07:23.480 the print and print journalism obsolete, good reporting, researching, and 0:07:23.520 --> 0:07:26.840 writing is more important than ever. Perhaps the medium of 0:07:26.880 --> 0:07:29.680 paper as a way to convey information is fading in importance, 0:07:29.960 --> 0:07:36.679 but Americans still deserve informative media. Rebecca Greenfield, you are hired. Yeah, 0:07:36.720 --> 0:07:39.720 why did that get me? I don't know. They probably 0:07:39.720 --> 0:07:42.320 got a lot of garbage from other twenty two year 0:07:42.320 --> 0:07:44.680 old You managed to string together some sentences they were 0:07:44.680 --> 0:07:49.400 grammatically correct. Yeah, So somehow people get hired. And from 0:07:49.480 --> 0:07:52.000 our perspective, it feels like employers have have a good 0:07:52.080 --> 0:07:55.560 like they have all the power because they do. But 0:07:56.000 --> 0:07:58.640 I talked to a few hiring managers about the process 0:07:58.800 --> 0:08:02.040 and they have a few frustrations of their own. Take 0:08:02.040 --> 0:08:11.160 a listen. I think there's a lot of bad tips 0:08:11.200 --> 0:08:13.680 out there, Like people will tell you you have to 0:08:13.720 --> 0:08:16.200 stand out, so you have to visit the office in person. 0:08:16.920 --> 0:08:20.480 But I've actually never seen this work up favorably. So 0:08:20.560 --> 0:08:25.160 what you usually see is, dear hiring manager, I have 0:08:25.280 --> 0:08:28.520 done X Y and Z for X Y and Z company. 0:08:28.920 --> 0:08:32.080 This will be applicable to you because something that sounds 0:08:32.120 --> 0:08:35.120 like it came from a fortune cookie. Please call me 0:08:35.160 --> 0:08:38.040 back if you're early inconvenience so I can expound upon this. 0:08:38.960 --> 0:08:42.920 Looking forward to it handed it. I've had people send 0:08:42.920 --> 0:08:46.760 me gifts and it never works. It's actually pretty cooky 0:08:46.800 --> 0:08:49.320 and it's not a gimmick that should get you noticed. 0:08:49.360 --> 0:08:53.280 It's your talents. Like I've seen people attached pictures that 0:08:53.679 --> 0:08:56.000 you know, how like when you sometimes see people on 0:08:56.000 --> 0:08:59.319 on Facebook or LinkedIn and they've got it appears that 0:08:59.400 --> 0:09:01.920 they've got their arm around a buddy, and you can 0:09:02.000 --> 0:09:05.400 kind of tell that the photo has been cropped, you know, 0:09:05.880 --> 0:09:08.200 not only are they attaching a photo and maybe that's 0:09:08.200 --> 0:09:10.680 not you know, that's not appropriate. Now you kind of 0:09:10.679 --> 0:09:13.040 see this photo where you're like, oh, is that a 0:09:13.080 --> 0:09:15.920 photo from the last Friday night. I literally had a 0:09:15.960 --> 0:09:18.760 candidate practically lie about getting in a car accident, and 0:09:19.040 --> 0:09:20.439 the candidate kind of said, hey, I'm not gonna be 0:09:20.440 --> 0:09:22.200 able to make the interview got in a car accident, 0:09:22.320 --> 0:09:24.600 like oh gosh, I hope you're okay. Um, And then 0:09:24.600 --> 0:09:26.319 they actually sent me a photo, which I thought was 0:09:26.360 --> 0:09:28.000 kind of odd, like why would you send me a photo, 0:09:28.000 --> 0:09:30.120 I'm not your insurance company right to prove that you 0:09:30.120 --> 0:09:31.959 were in a car accident. I kind of shared it 0:09:31.960 --> 0:09:34.800 with a couple of my colleagues and they were much 0:09:34.840 --> 0:09:37.000 savvyer about, oh, let's go see if that's a stock photo. 0:09:37.080 --> 0:09:39.080 And I actually found like the stock photo up on 0:09:39.080 --> 0:09:41.280 the internet. So the person literally like lied about that, 0:09:41.440 --> 0:09:43.000 and just like, why didn't you just tell me didn't 0:09:43.000 --> 0:09:45.880 want to come to the interview. It seems like from 0:09:45.920 --> 0:09:49.520 an employer's standpoint, from a recruiting standpoint, it's a dreadful 0:09:49.559 --> 0:09:53.080 task and that you would rather be doing almost anything 0:09:53.080 --> 0:09:56.080 else than deal with them, right, although I don't. To me, 0:09:56.120 --> 0:09:57.760 it's like, maybe it's kind of fun to like look 0:09:57.760 --> 0:10:00.040 at people's rescues, but I guess that gets old. It 0:10:00.240 --> 0:10:02.840 might get old. I've always maintained that, you know, when 0:10:02.880 --> 0:10:05.240 I deal. I've tried to tell myself this in in 0:10:05.280 --> 0:10:07.839 my own job seeking situations, and I've also told this 0:10:07.920 --> 0:10:10.440 to friends, which is that you know, you're waiting to 0:10:10.440 --> 0:10:12.719 hear back from somebody, and the days are sort of 0:10:12.920 --> 0:10:15.360 ticking by, and you're going out of your mind. Yeah, 0:10:15.360 --> 0:10:17.240 you're going, what's going on? What's going They must be 0:10:17.280 --> 0:10:20.559 considering twenty other people, that's right, Yeah, And the truth 0:10:20.679 --> 0:10:24.840 is probably that they have just like procrastinated that task 0:10:25.040 --> 0:10:28.959 till weeks from now because there's more pressing. There's always 0:10:28.960 --> 0:10:31.160 something more pressing, you know, that needs to get addressed 0:10:31.440 --> 0:10:34.320 that hour or that day or that week. And like 0:10:34.640 --> 0:10:37.680 hiring somebody in many cases is like it would be 0:10:37.720 --> 0:10:39.800 nice to get them in sooner rather than later, but 0:10:39.880 --> 0:10:41.920 we kind of have worked it out without them yet, 0:10:41.960 --> 0:10:45.040 so and so you're on the other end with nothing 0:10:45.040 --> 0:10:46.760 more important to think about than whether or not you're 0:10:46.760 --> 0:10:50.199 going to get this job, they are not nearly as 0:10:50.240 --> 0:10:53.719 interested in filling it as you are. Yeah. God, that's 0:10:53.760 --> 0:10:58.240 so annoying. But the realities so Yeah. Even when employers 0:10:58.600 --> 0:11:01.400 are trying really hard to hire, like tech companies who 0:11:01.400 --> 0:11:03.800 need to staff up really fast, they still have problems 0:11:03.840 --> 0:11:09.320 hiring because there are not enough qualified people, or maybe 0:11:09.360 --> 0:11:13.520 they're trying to hire a more diverse staff hopefully and 0:11:13.720 --> 0:11:17.640 that is difficult. So in some ways we can sympathize 0:11:17.640 --> 0:11:19.640 with the employer a little bit, but it does go 0:11:19.760 --> 0:11:22.640 to this larger notion that the entire system does seem 0:11:22.679 --> 0:11:25.040 to be broken. And this would probably be a really 0:11:25.040 --> 0:11:28.240 good time to bring in our guest, Kieren Snyder, who's 0:11:28.240 --> 0:11:30.959 working to help companies do a better job of hiring 0:11:31.000 --> 0:11:34.680 people alinguist by training. Kieren runs Texto, a company that 0:11:34.800 --> 0:11:38.480 uses machine learning to create better job listings and recruitment 0:11:38.520 --> 0:11:47.840 letters for companies. Up happens when the power and potential 0:11:47.880 --> 0:11:51.120 of every employee and leader in your workforce is released, 0:11:51.480 --> 0:11:53.840 and corn Ferry can get you there by aligning your 0:11:53.880 --> 0:11:58.240 people to your strategy, attracting, developing, engaging, and rewarding them 0:11:58.280 --> 0:12:01.240 to reach new heights. With corn Ferry, you get a 0:12:01.240 --> 0:12:04.760 partner who truly understands people, leadership, and the new landscape 0:12:04.760 --> 0:12:06.960 of work, a partner who knows how to take your 0:12:06.960 --> 0:12:10.480 business up. Learn more at corn Ferry dot com slash 0:12:10.559 --> 0:12:22.880 up hire. Hi, nice to be here, Thanks for joining us. UM. 0:12:22.920 --> 0:12:26.679 I'll start off with just wort of a basic question here, UM, 0:12:26.720 --> 0:12:29.719 given your vantage point, how would you describe right now 0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:34.280 the state of hiring here in the US. Great question. 0:12:34.320 --> 0:12:36.160 I mean, we may be in a little bit of 0:12:36.200 --> 0:12:39.320 a transition point right now, but the last couple of 0:12:39.400 --> 0:12:44.520 years have been tougher for employers than employees in terms 0:12:44.520 --> 0:12:49.640 of hiring, especially in sectors like technology and finance, where 0:12:50.240 --> 0:12:53.800 there are a lot of great jobs available. You know, 0:12:53.840 --> 0:12:56.520 the economy the last couple of years has done pretty 0:12:56.520 --> 0:13:00.400 well and fewer qualified candidates to fill the role, so 0:13:00.440 --> 0:13:03.680 that the most qualified candidates on the market are highly 0:13:03.720 --> 0:13:07.080 in demand right now. I definitely think that's surprising from 0:13:07.520 --> 0:13:10.719 our perspective, the higher the employees perspective, because it just 0:13:10.880 --> 0:13:15.640 seems so impossible to find and look for jobs these days. UM. 0:13:15.720 --> 0:13:18.440 As part of the problem like some sort of mismatch 0:13:18.440 --> 0:13:21.480 and what employers are putting out there. Yeah, that's a 0:13:21.520 --> 0:13:25.280 really good, good question. I can understand from the potential 0:13:25.360 --> 0:13:28.480 employee your job seeker perspective that it can be tough 0:13:28.559 --> 0:13:31.600 to wade through the content to find the right thing. 0:13:31.640 --> 0:13:34.640 I mean, there are over three billion job posts on 0:13:34.679 --> 0:13:38.760 the internet, uh, just for North America at any given time, 0:13:39.480 --> 0:13:41.360 and so I do think kind of one of the 0:13:41.440 --> 0:13:46.280 challenges for the job seeker is to wade through all 0:13:46.320 --> 0:13:50.600 of that and find the posts that actually speak the 0:13:50.679 --> 0:13:53.920 most clearly to them for which they're sort of uniquely qualified. 0:13:54.280 --> 0:13:56.800 That sounds like some work for the job seeker to 0:13:56.880 --> 0:14:01.800 like wade through three billion different posts. Yeah, it's a 0:14:01.800 --> 0:14:04.680 good question. I think job seekers take a couple of 0:14:04.720 --> 0:14:08.040 different approaches, uh, you know, and I think there's the 0:14:08.080 --> 0:14:12.439 employer side of this as well. Obviously, job seekers increasingly 0:14:12.480 --> 0:14:16.199 their number one and two tools for jobs seeking our 0:14:16.360 --> 0:14:20.000 Google and kind of secondarily maybe indeed as a you know, 0:14:20.160 --> 0:14:22.120 a board where they can kind of find one stop 0:14:22.160 --> 0:14:26.320 shopping for listings or they may you know, identify ten 0:14:26.360 --> 0:14:28.640 companies they want to work for and go directly to 0:14:28.680 --> 0:14:31.440 the source. But I think it's a equally a big 0:14:31.520 --> 0:14:36.520 challenge for the employer in that model, because when you're 0:14:36.760 --> 0:14:40.000 part of such a large ecosystem. You have to figure 0:14:40.000 --> 0:14:42.200 out how to stand out so you can be found, 0:14:43.120 --> 0:14:45.080 which is you know, so I think there's some mutual 0:14:45.160 --> 0:14:48.720 challenge on matching. Karen, you've been working with a lot 0:14:48.760 --> 0:14:52.440 of companies um and helping them sort of craft better messages. 0:14:52.520 --> 0:14:54.760 What are some of the key things that you're telling 0:14:54.840 --> 0:14:58.400 your clients to be doing that will attract more or 0:14:58.600 --> 0:15:02.240 better applicants. I mean, for us, given that you know, 0:15:02.280 --> 0:15:06.600 we really make software rather than providing expert consulting. The 0:15:06.720 --> 0:15:11.520 number one thing that we tell companies is that your 0:15:11.520 --> 0:15:16.120 own intuitions may be broken. Right that sort of your 0:15:16.400 --> 0:15:19.640 go to job posts that you've used for the last 0:15:19.680 --> 0:15:22.280 three years, where by the way, you're not happy with 0:15:22.760 --> 0:15:24.560 who applies when you put it out there in the world, 0:15:24.600 --> 0:15:28.360 but you're still using it. Uh Or your intuition about 0:15:29.040 --> 0:15:31.760 what's going to work in the market or not isn't 0:15:31.840 --> 0:15:35.720 as powerful as real use of data from the whole 0:15:35.800 --> 0:15:40.080 hiring community. So your own intuitions and biases may take 0:15:40.160 --> 0:15:42.480 you two outcomes that you don't want to have, whereas 0:15:42.480 --> 0:15:46.280 if you can use real outcomes and real quantitative approaches, 0:15:46.400 --> 0:15:48.560 you know, look at what has actually worked in the past, 0:15:48.880 --> 0:15:50.960 you're likely to bet get a better outcome. So it's 0:15:50.960 --> 0:15:54.840 the number one thing we have to tell companies, uh, 0:15:54.920 --> 0:15:56.760 is that you've got to let go some of what 0:15:56.800 --> 0:15:59.840 you thought were best practices. Do you have any examples 0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:03.840 of those bad intuitions? Are best practices that companies are 0:16:03.920 --> 0:16:06.080 using that we all see it in job listings all 0:16:06.080 --> 0:16:09.240 the time that just really don't work. Yeah. One of 0:16:09.360 --> 0:16:13.080 one of the things that always ends up surprising people, uh, 0:16:13.120 --> 0:16:16.920 is that great, great example, the proportion of content that 0:16:16.960 --> 0:16:21.000 they put into bullets matters, right, the bullet points all 0:16:21.040 --> 0:16:23.920 over job posts. It turns out there's a sweet spot 0:16:24.000 --> 0:16:28.280 for candidate engagement. If you want the maximum candidate engagement 0:16:28.280 --> 0:16:30.280 on your job post, you want your listening to be 0:16:30.360 --> 0:16:36.160 about a third bulleted content. It's probably a visual silhouette thing. 0:16:36.840 --> 0:16:41.000 And then, really interestingly, when you go above fifty you 0:16:41.040 --> 0:16:43.840 see a reduction in the proportion of women who apply, 0:16:44.280 --> 0:16:47.000 so women don't like bullet points. Yeah, And if you 0:16:47.040 --> 0:16:50.440 go below t bulleted content, you see a reduction in 0:16:50.480 --> 0:16:53.160 the proportion of men who apply, which is also not good. 0:16:53.640 --> 0:16:55.520 So this is one of those things you can only 0:16:55.600 --> 0:16:59.720 know when you're measuring outcomes at large scale. There's actually 0:16:59.720 --> 0:17:02.880 a spot that works, you know, inclusively to get the 0:17:02.920 --> 0:17:06.200 most engagement from candidates, and people are always surprised. There's 0:17:06.200 --> 0:17:08.360 an example of the kind of thing like I never 0:17:08.359 --> 0:17:10.440 really thought about that before. I just I just wrote 0:17:10.480 --> 0:17:12.680 it the way I've always written it. Are there any 0:17:12.720 --> 0:17:15.680 other sort of examples that you can cite that? I mean, 0:17:15.680 --> 0:17:18.240 that was great what you were just talking about, UM, 0:17:18.280 --> 0:17:21.080 But other sort of like always nevers or dues and 0:17:21.119 --> 0:17:24.119 don't um that you've come to learn from all of 0:17:24.119 --> 0:17:26.880 the data that you've been sifting through. Yeah, I mean, 0:17:26.920 --> 0:17:28.800 I guess one of the most I can give a 0:17:28.840 --> 0:17:32.600 couple examples, but one of the most important things is 0:17:32.640 --> 0:17:37.040 that there are few, always is and never uh, simply 0:17:37.119 --> 0:17:40.760 because language changes. So the patterns that worked a couple 0:17:40.760 --> 0:17:43.080 of months ago may not work today, and the patterns 0:17:43.119 --> 0:17:45.440 that work today may not work in a couple of months. 0:17:45.480 --> 0:17:47.800 So as as language change, it's just like with any 0:17:47.960 --> 0:17:50.720 marketing content, right, because the job post is essentially your 0:17:50.720 --> 0:17:54.080 way of marketing your company and your job. What works 0:17:54.160 --> 0:17:57.560 changes based on what's happening in the market. I'd say 0:17:57.600 --> 0:18:01.679 one of the most common mistakes that people make is 0:18:01.920 --> 0:18:06.000 use of over formal language or sort of corporate cliches, 0:18:06.440 --> 0:18:11.560 you know, language like synergy or KPI S or r 0:18:11.600 --> 0:18:15.720 O I terrible jargon that nobody. Yeah, exactly, the pretty 0:18:16.000 --> 0:18:19.399 jargoning stuff. Uh. I don't know what it is that 0:18:19.480 --> 0:18:21.960 people get behind a keyboard when they're writing a job post, 0:18:22.040 --> 0:18:27.160 but they don't write like they talk, and actually posts 0:18:27.200 --> 0:18:29.800 performed better when it feels like they're written a little 0:18:29.920 --> 0:18:32.280 less formally. And you know, one thing that we've we've 0:18:32.280 --> 0:18:36.080 found very interesting in our data. So every candidate, every 0:18:36.080 --> 0:18:39.280 demographic group, this is true, they don't like this corporate jargon, 0:18:39.680 --> 0:18:45.359 but it has an even more adverse effect on underrepresented groups. Uh, 0:18:45.440 --> 0:18:50.640 particularly people of color and women uh don't respond well 0:18:51.040 --> 0:18:53.000 to you know, they're much less likely to apply the 0:18:53.040 --> 0:18:56.240 more jargon you have in your post. So yeah, pretty interesting. 0:18:56.760 --> 0:18:59.520 That's really interesting because we did an episode on jargon, 0:19:00.240 --> 0:19:03.480 and um we talked about how jargon is in speak, 0:19:03.800 --> 0:19:06.200 you know, it's it's something that excludes other groups. So 0:19:06.240 --> 0:19:09.359 that kind of does make sense that underrepresentative people who 0:19:09.359 --> 0:19:13.080 probably already feel marginalized, you know, they see that language 0:19:13.080 --> 0:19:15.240 and they're like, oh, this isn't for me, that's that's 0:19:15.280 --> 0:19:18.879 that community exactly. Yeah. I think it's because you know, 0:19:18.880 --> 0:19:23.480 it grew up in a pretty homogeneous corporate culture historically 0:19:23.960 --> 0:19:27.880 that wasn't particularly inclusive or representative, so the language has 0:19:27.920 --> 0:19:31.119 become something of a cultural signifier, at least at some 0:19:31.920 --> 0:19:36.600 unconscious level. Karen, can you extrampolate from the data and 0:19:36.640 --> 0:19:40.000 the work you've done with employers and sort of apply 0:19:40.160 --> 0:19:43.480 this to the employee side of the equation? Are their 0:19:43.640 --> 0:19:48.720 words or practices that are either misguided or underused or 0:19:48.760 --> 0:19:52.000 truly beneficial? You know, it's a really good question, and 0:19:52.040 --> 0:19:56.199 I'm i as potential employees, everybody, of course wants to 0:19:56.240 --> 0:19:58.760 put their best foot forward, uh, and they want to 0:19:58.800 --> 0:20:02.240 have their best chance ants of being interviewed, you know, 0:20:02.320 --> 0:20:04.040 to get get kind of through the door and cover 0:20:04.119 --> 0:20:07.480 letters and resumes. On the other hand, there's a part 0:20:07.480 --> 0:20:10.439 of me that always says, uh, yes, there are some 0:20:10.480 --> 0:20:12.680 best practices you can apply, but if you have to, 0:20:12.760 --> 0:20:15.280 if you feel like you have to fundamentally change the 0:20:15.320 --> 0:20:18.280 way you're communicating to get looked at by a company, 0:20:18.400 --> 0:20:21.920 you're probably not going to enjoy working for that company 0:20:22.080 --> 0:20:24.800 once you get there. So I'm always a little cautious 0:20:24.800 --> 0:20:29.560 about telling job seekers to change themselves. Um. That said, 0:20:29.840 --> 0:20:33.360 of course, you know, companies increasingly use things like resume 0:20:33.600 --> 0:20:40.080 resume and keyword scanning software to even decide who to interview. Um, 0:20:40.119 --> 0:20:44.399 we know that shorter resumes do better, you know, with software. 0:20:44.800 --> 0:20:49.719 We know that resumes that include lots of active verbs 0:20:49.800 --> 0:20:53.040 to describe tasks and accomplishments that you've had in the 0:20:53.080 --> 0:20:58.960 past do better than resumes with sort of expository pros uh. 0:20:59.040 --> 0:21:02.919 And its makes me a little bit nervous because you know, 0:21:03.160 --> 0:21:06.320 I've done some work in the past looking at within 0:21:06.400 --> 0:21:09.560 technology resumes of men and women, and men's resumes tend 0:21:09.600 --> 0:21:14.679 to conform to the patterns that resume scanning software privileges 0:21:15.240 --> 0:21:19.560 and women's do not, And so I never like to, 0:21:20.320 --> 0:21:23.879 uh make a set of recommendations for that end up 0:21:23.920 --> 0:21:26.920 being demographically selective in some way. But we can see 0:21:26.920 --> 0:21:30.479 what what scanning software tends to privilege. Wait, that's so 0:21:30.520 --> 0:21:35.159 crazy that companies now are using more technology to separate 0:21:35.520 --> 0:21:38.600 the human interaction in the application process. I feel like, 0:21:38.840 --> 0:21:41.320 you know, it's one thing to just apply to a faceless, 0:21:41.600 --> 0:21:45.000 nameless job site, but now those applications aren't even being 0:21:45.080 --> 0:21:48.359 read by people the first time around. Fewer humans and 0:21:48.480 --> 0:21:54.480 human resources generally speaking, to get to the human part, 0:21:54.560 --> 0:21:57.000 which I think is really scary for job seekers because 0:21:57.280 --> 0:21:59.520 I think the human part is kind of the the 0:21:59.600 --> 0:22:01.560 easiest part. Well, and I feel like you're and you 0:22:01.600 --> 0:22:03.960 were saying before, obviously people don't want to change who 0:22:04.000 --> 0:22:06.399 they are. And yet the way this whole thing is 0:22:06.440 --> 0:22:09.119 being structured is almost like a game. Like if you 0:22:09.200 --> 0:22:14.200 just have to get through a stage or in this case, um, 0:22:14.240 --> 0:22:16.480