1 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:09,280 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Thoughts Podcast. 2 00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:13,240 Speaker 1: I'm Tracy Allaway and I'm Joe. Joe. Do you remember 3 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:16,680 Speaker 1: that time I tried to ship a Teddy Bear in 4 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 1: a single container from Hong Kong to New York or 5 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:23,080 Speaker 1: was it l a well to the US? Yeah? And 6 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:25,959 Speaker 1: it basically the story is like, it's just so operationally 7 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:29,080 Speaker 1: complex and paperwork and there was no space so much 8 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:30,840 Speaker 1: and it didn't make it in the end, right, No, 9 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 1: I couldn't. Basically I couldn't get on a ship. I 10 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 1: kept getting bumped um and bumped and bumped, and finally 11 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 1: it seemed like it was going to be six months 12 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:41,400 Speaker 1: until I could even get space, and so it didn't 13 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 1: seem morph it. And now now that I've moved to 14 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:48,519 Speaker 1: New York, I got to repeat this entire experiment, um, 15 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 1: you know, in reality, and I got to put all 16 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:55,040 Speaker 1: my apartment belongings into a container, put them on a ship, 17 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 1: and actually ship them from Hong Kong to New York. 18 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:01,520 Speaker 1: Except it turns out I still can't actually ship anything 19 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:04,760 Speaker 1: from Hong Kong to New York. I love how like 20 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 1: no one has more experience with the physical realities of 21 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:11,800 Speaker 1: our commodity and infrastructure system than you between the teddy bear, 22 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:14,319 Speaker 1: between the barrel of oil that you bought and kept 23 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 1: under your desk for a while, and now this. You 24 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:20,840 Speaker 1: seem to have a knack for experiencing firsthand what the 25 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 1: rest of us just see is lines on the chart. 26 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:26,200 Speaker 1: I think I have a knack for failed logistics. But 27 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:29,959 Speaker 1: for our listeners, those who haven't been keeping abreast of 28 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:34,319 Speaker 1: all the shipping news, there is another ship that is stuck. 29 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 1: This time it's stuck in the Chesapeake Bay, just outside 30 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 1: the port of Baltimore, and um you know, ironically, I 31 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:45,399 Speaker 1: guess that irony isn't the right word here, but it 32 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 1: happens to be owned by the same company that owned 33 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 1: UM the Ever Given, the boat that got stuck in 34 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 1: the Suez Canal. Uh. This time the container ship is 35 00:01:56,800 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 1: called the ever Forward, only of course it's not going forward. 36 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:02,600 Speaker 1: It's stuck in the mud with all my belongings in it. 37 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:05,360 Speaker 1: So they Ever Given got a lot of attention, obviously 38 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:08,600 Speaker 1: in part because it blocked all the traffic of the 39 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:11,640 Speaker 1: Suis Canal, which everyone knows. I take it the ever Forward. 40 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 1: It doesn't seem to be blocking as much, I think, 41 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:17,920 Speaker 1: but it has all your stuff on it that is correct. 42 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:21,800 Speaker 1: So there were some some news reports around this, but 43 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:24,680 Speaker 1: definitely not as much attention as the Ever Given, given 44 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 1: that that thing was blocking an actual percentage of global trade. 45 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 1: Who can no longer go through the canal? Um the 46 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 1: Chesapeake Bay remains open. But it's interesting to me personally 47 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:39,840 Speaker 1: for obvious reasons. But it also the fact that this 48 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:42,919 Speaker 1: has happened again feeds into a number of the themes 49 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:45,680 Speaker 1: that we were discussing all throughout last year. And I 50 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:48,080 Speaker 1: know we've been talking about a lot of other stuff recently, 51 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:50,919 Speaker 1: but I think we have to dive into this one. 52 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:53,720 Speaker 1: We owe it to odd lots listeners and ourselves. So 53 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 1: we are going to be speaking with sal Mercogliano. He 54 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:02,720 Speaker 1: is a maritime historian and day history professor at Campbell University. 55 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 1: He also runs an excellent YouTube channel which has been 56 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:09,080 Speaker 1: going in depth on what's actually happening with the ship 57 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:12,240 Speaker 1: The Ever Forward. Sal thank you so much for coming 58 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 1: on the show. Well, thank you for having me. Why 59 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:16,800 Speaker 1: don't we start with the basics, because you know, I 60 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:20,640 Speaker 1: read the news articles. This thing has been stuck for 61 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:24,119 Speaker 1: just over a week. Now, What exactly do we think 62 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:27,639 Speaker 1: happened here? How can a massive container ship have this 63 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 1: kind of incident for a second time, sure, so Ever 64 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 1: Forward was on a routine voyage. She had come through 65 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 1: the Panama Canal and was stopping at four East Coast 66 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:42,480 Speaker 1: US ports, had stopped already at Savannah and offloaded. It 67 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 1: had gone up to Baltimore and offloaded part of its cargo, 68 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 1: and it departed on the evening of March thirteenth and 69 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 1: was heading down to Norfolk and then eventually to New York. 70 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 1: So the ship departed routinely, came off the birth late 71 00:03:56,680 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 1: late in the evening early morning, and she seemed to 72 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:01,840 Speaker 1: be allowing all the rules. I mean, everything seemed to 73 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 1: be fine. They were maneuvering. There seemed to be no 74 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 1: incidents with her. And she's part of this new class 75 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 1: of what's called the neo Panamax vessel. These are vessels 76 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 1: that can use the new lane of the Panama Canal 77 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 1: that was opened in so these East Coast ports have 78 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 1: been dredging and building to accommodate vessels like this. And 79 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:25,599 Speaker 1: Ever Forward was heading southbound through the what's called the 80 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 1: Craig Hill Channel. This is the channel out of Baltimore 81 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 1: down to the Bay Bridge at Annapolis, and the ship 82 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 1: was following the track that it normally does in the 83 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 1: Dredge Channel, which is well lit, well charted. She had 84 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 1: a chess Peak bay pilot on board in addition to 85 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 1: her normal crew and master, and the vessel went through 86 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 1: the buoy's at the top of the channel, but proceeded 87 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:51,359 Speaker 1: to keep going out of the channel. Didn't appear to 88 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:55,120 Speaker 1: make the change at all to the course to head southbound, 89 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:58,479 Speaker 1: and what she wound up doing was plowing into the 90 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:01,920 Speaker 1: mud on the east side of the channel. She draws 91 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:04,599 Speaker 1: about forty two ft of water in the condition she 92 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:07,599 Speaker 1: was when she left Baltimore. She is now sitting in 93 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:11,480 Speaker 1: anywhere between eighteen to twenty four ft of water about 94 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 1: an entire ship lengths off the channel. She's over a 95 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 1: thousand feet long. So what is what's being done right now? 96 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:20,839 Speaker 1: And you mentioned the ship has been stuck for a 97 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 1: little over a week. What's been tried and what is 98 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:26,040 Speaker 1: this sort of basic idea of what people are trying 99 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 1: to do to get the ship moving again. Sure, so 100 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 1: again we're not exactly sure what causes incident. Let me 101 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 1: go back that for a second. So you know there's 102 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:37,159 Speaker 1: either a mechanical issue which is you know, she couldn't steer, 103 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:40,919 Speaker 1: or it is a human error. Was there a miscommunication 104 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:44,160 Speaker 1: between the pilot and the crew. Was there an issue 105 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 1: regarding uh the proper helm water? Did they lose their 106 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 1: situational awareness? I find the ladder the least likely because 107 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:54,680 Speaker 1: this is a well lit channel. It's like a landing 108 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 1: zone for an airplane, well lit with the Booey's heading 109 00:05:57,240 --> 00:05:59,600 Speaker 1: to the bay bridge there. So we're probably looking at 110 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 1: a mechanic goal or communications error in regards to the 111 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:05,719 Speaker 1: salvage of the vessel. So we're a week into this 112 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:08,480 Speaker 1: at this point, and again, ever given took just six 113 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:10,920 Speaker 1: days to get free, and now we're over a week 114 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 1: into this, and what they've begun to do is start 115 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 1: dredging in two areas, one off the stern of the 116 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:19,160 Speaker 1: vessel and one off the forward bow of the vessel, 117 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:22,239 Speaker 1: off the right side of the vessel. And what they're 118 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 1: trying to do is remove the mud and spoil from 119 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 1: around the propeller and runner of the vessel and also 120 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:32,679 Speaker 1: trying to clear the forward bow an attempt to pull 121 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:35,679 Speaker 1: the chan of the ship into the channel. The problem 122 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:38,159 Speaker 1: is the amount of spoil that is there. This is 123 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 1: the material that had actually been removed from the channel, 124 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 1: and the method they're doing with the dredges they have 125 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:47,480 Speaker 1: there are big for the United States, but they're not 126 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:50,640 Speaker 1: like the vacuum dredges you see in the Suez Canal. 127 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:53,480 Speaker 1: Give you an idea. The biggest dredge on seen here 128 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 1: can move about sixty cubic yards of material in each 129 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:01,680 Speaker 1: of its moves with its big clams l The massuit, 130 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 1: which was the dredge used in the Suez Canal, could 131 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 1: move seventy thousand cubic yards of material in an hour 132 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 1: with its vacuum suction. Wait was that the was that 133 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:14,280 Speaker 1: the little one that turned into a meme? Or was 134 00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 1: that something else that was the big dredge? So was bright? 135 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 1: It wasn't the little digger, although I've seen a lot. 136 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 1: I've seen a lot of memes right now with a 137 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:22,560 Speaker 1: little with the little digger on the way to the 138 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 1: United States. Can you just say those two numbers again, 139 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:27,680 Speaker 1: how much could the Suez dredger do verse the one 140 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 1: that we have operating right now. Sure, so there's two 141 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 1: dredges right now and operating. The one off the bow 142 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 1: of the vessel can move about a fifteen cubic yards 143 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 1: in each move. The one off the stern, the Dale 144 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 1: Pilot Piet can move about sixty cubic yards. The Masure, 145 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 1: which is the big dredge that was used on every 146 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:49,000 Speaker 1: given can move seventy thousand cubic yards an hour. Okay, 147 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 1: here's my question, why don't we have a bigger drudger? Well, 148 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 1: and that's a big issue, I would argue. You know, 149 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 1: one of the things that we've been talking about with 150 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:00,240 Speaker 1: port infrastructure is the focus I mentioned the expand nine 151 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 1: the Suez Canal. So we've been dredging channels, we've been 152 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 1: bringing in these large ship to shore cranes. But one 153 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 1: of the things that has really lagged is our dredging capacity. 154 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 1: And we've seen recently through the Infrastructure Bill, money being 155 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 1: contributed or being allocated to build new drudges, and we're 156 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:21,559 Speaker 1: seeing new dredges build. It is a priority that really 157 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:24,920 Speaker 1: needs to be done. We we do not have sufficient 158 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 1: dredging capacity in the US, and there's a law that 159 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:31,080 Speaker 1: requires there's the Dredging Act of nineteen o six that 160 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 1: requires dredges within the United States to be US owned, 161 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:37,439 Speaker 1: US built, US crewed, very similar to the Jones Act. 162 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 1: Of and this is because we want dredges within the 163 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:43,920 Speaker 1: United States. The problem is we just haven't a lot 164 00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 1: of a lot of money to it, and there really 165 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 1: hasn't been the impetus to fund this, and I think 166 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 1: this incident is really highlighting that danger. I can't believe, Tracy, 167 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 1: We're gonna have to now do an episode an hour 168 00:08:57,080 --> 00:09:02,200 Speaker 1: just talking about America's systematic under estament in dredging capacity. 169 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:03,840 Speaker 1: But at some point we're gonna have to do this. 170 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 1: But also why haven't we, I mean, why, like why 171 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 1: has there been this sort of underappreciation. I mean, I understand, 172 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 1: like dredging isn't just about getting ships unstuck, So why 173 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:18,240 Speaker 1: this sort of systemic under investment. Well, it has to 174 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:21,319 Speaker 1: do with the way we handle ports in the United States. 175 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:24,600 Speaker 1: So you've you had Jean Saroka on Jean, what is 176 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:26,960 Speaker 1: the CEO of the of the Port of Los Angeles. 177 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:29,439 Speaker 1: Ports in the United States are owned by the states 178 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 1: and municipalities, so they are a local entity. Yet the 179 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:36,320 Speaker 1: waters that connect those ports to the ocean are federal, 180 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:40,079 Speaker 1: and so they fall under the Army Corps of Engineers specifically, 181 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 1: and so the Army Corps of Engineers has been tasked 182 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:45,240 Speaker 1: to basically maintain the dredging, and they do it either 183 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:48,800 Speaker 1: with their own fleet of dredgers or they contract out 184 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 1: with that. And you know, this comes back to everything 185 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:56,080 Speaker 1: from Hurricane Katrina and and and the dikes and all 186 00:09:56,120 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 1: the waterways maintenance, and we just have under invested in this. 187 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 1: It's not a very sexy topic. No one likes to 188 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 1: talk about it, No one likes to pay money for 189 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 1: a dredge. It's you know, it's just not not not 190 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 1: as sexy as an aircraft carrier or something, you know, 191 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:12,560 Speaker 1: more nautical. But it's absolutely essential. And one of the 192 00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:14,760 Speaker 1: things that we've seen happen again over the past decade 193 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 1: is these East Coast and Gulf Coast ports have been 194 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 1: using what dredges are available to get those channels down 195 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 1: to accommodate these larger vessels, these ultra large container vessels. 196 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 1: And while ever Forward is not an ultra large container vessels, 197 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:33,240 Speaker 1: she's actually substantially smaller than ever given by about four 198 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 1: hundred feet and eight thousand boxes. She is still a 199 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 1: mammoth vessel when you look at her compared to the 200 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:50,680 Speaker 1: vessels that have previously come into US ports. So we 201 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:54,120 Speaker 1: build these massive container ships. And you know, Joe and 202 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:55,680 Speaker 1: I have had a number of guests on at this 203 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:58,160 Speaker 1: point talking about how the ships get bigger and bigger 204 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 1: and the reasons why that happens. But at the same time, 205 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:05,320 Speaker 1: it doesn't seem like, again, we've made sufficient investment in 206 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:09,840 Speaker 1: the infrastructure, if you include dredging in the category of infrastructure, 207 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 1: to actually make the whole system work efficiently, right And 208 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 1: I think that's that's a key element right there, because 209 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 1: one of the things we're watching is Okay, how can 210 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 1: we better improve it? And we've talked about, you know, 211 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:25,839 Speaker 1: improving throughput in the ports everything from road, rail, dra 212 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:28,840 Speaker 1: edge trucks, you name it. But again, the maintenance of 213 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:32,679 Speaker 1: the ports are really essential and and be able to 214 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 1: flow the cargo. And in particularly one of the things 215 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 1: you're seeing right now is because of the backlogs on 216 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 1: the West coast that have been going on now for 217 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 1: over a year, you're seeing shippers, those who want to 218 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:45,840 Speaker 1: move cargo are shifting over to the East coast. You know, 219 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:49,840 Speaker 1: the ports of New York, of Charleston, Savannah, Baltimore, Norfolk, 220 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:55,199 Speaker 1: Houston are actively seeking this this cargo and it's it's successful. 221 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:57,640 Speaker 1: They're getting it you're seeing this matter fact, you're seeing 222 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 1: where you had seen backlogs off the Port of Los Angeles, 223 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:02,320 Speaker 1: which they were over a hundred ships. Now they're down 224 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:05,320 Speaker 1: to forty. Now we're seeing them off Charleston, we're seeing 225 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:07,200 Speaker 1: them off Norfolk, we're seeing them off in New York, 226 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:10,320 Speaker 1: and and we're kind of moving the issue. And Port 227 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 1: of Baltimore in particularly is a very interesting port because 228 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:16,480 Speaker 1: it does not just containers, it does bulk cargo coal 229 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:20,079 Speaker 1: in particularly, a lot of vehicles moved through. It's an 230 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 1: active moving port, and so moving ships in and out 231 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 1: as expeditiously as you can becomes a priority. And there's 232 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 1: gonna be a question about was ever Forward going too 233 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:34,440 Speaker 1: fast for the channel she was in, because the faster 234 00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:36,360 Speaker 1: you go, And it's literally the same thing with ever 235 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 1: Given too. If every Given hadn't going been going as 236 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 1: fast thirteen knots and ever Forward was doing thirteen knots too, 237 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 1: had they been going slower, the salvage and the damage 238 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:49,440 Speaker 1: and the ability to get the vessels off would have 239 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:53,520 Speaker 1: been minimized. Is that faster than they should be going 240 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:57,960 Speaker 1: in either in either the Suez or the chest Peak. Well, 241 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 1: it's funny you said that because I had Traffic, which 242 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:03,200 Speaker 1: is an A I S tracking app which does all 243 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:06,880 Speaker 1: the kind of monitoring. Ever, Forward came through this same 244 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 1: area in December, and when she came through in December, 245 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:12,480 Speaker 1: she did roughly the same speed, so it was roughly 246 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:15,840 Speaker 1: about twelve thirteen knots she was using coming in. So 247 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:18,040 Speaker 1: I was able to see her her her departure and 248 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 1: it seemed to be the same exact Now she may 249 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 1: speed it up just a little bit prematurely before turning 250 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:25,360 Speaker 1: into the channel, and that's something that's going to have 251 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:28,840 Speaker 1: to be investigated. So I want to ask a question 252 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:33,400 Speaker 1: which is very important to me personally, but what are 253 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:37,720 Speaker 1: what are the chances that something really bad happens in 254 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:43,200 Speaker 1: the situation and my entire apartments belongings is just like 255 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:46,079 Speaker 1: jettisoned into the ocean, or I don't know, if the 256 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 1: ship cracks up and I lose everything. Is that is 257 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:54,840 Speaker 1: that an above zero percent chance? Uh? I would say, 258 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:58,719 Speaker 1: You're not without some worries, Tracy. I think I think 259 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 1: one of the reasons we're seeing this this salvage taking 260 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 1: time again. I think the coast Guards announcement that she'll 261 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 1: be free this week is very premature. Bill Doyle, who's 262 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 1: the CEO of the Port of Baltimore headed the Dredger 263 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:14,400 Speaker 1: Association of the United States. I mean he he knows stredging, 264 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:17,360 Speaker 1: and he says this is gonna take several weeks. UH. 265 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 1: Since the vessel is fully aground, meaning its bottom is 266 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:24,120 Speaker 1: touching again, she draws water. She's an eighteen to twenty 267 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 1: four ft of water. She's literally up higher than she 268 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 1: normally is sitting on mud. They have to be concerned 269 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 1: about several issues. Number One, this vessel cracking UH. She 270 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:38,360 Speaker 1: ships are designed is a ship that brand new. UH 271 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 1: ships are not designed to touch anything. They're designed to 272 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 1: be buoyant, and the hulls are very thin in certain areas, 273 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 1: I'm talking millimeters thick. And you know what you have 274 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 1: to worry about is the vessel shifting, moving and cracking. 275 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:55,960 Speaker 1: This could necessitate an oil spill, for example, or fuel spill, 276 00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 1: so they want to move her very carefully. The other 277 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:01,760 Speaker 1: thing is, since she's there's no buoyancy acting on her, 278 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 1: there's nothing pushing her up to keep her afloat. Everything 279 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:06,720 Speaker 1: is pushing down. And what you have to worry about 280 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 1: is if you pull her back into the channel, she's 281 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:11,120 Speaker 1: she went out to the channel to the east side, 282 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:13,240 Speaker 1: so you have to pull her to the west. You 283 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:16,040 Speaker 1: don't want the vessel to roll, and that's the worst 284 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:19,000 Speaker 1: case scenario, in which case your apartment goods would then 285 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:21,960 Speaker 1: be wet in the ocean or in the bay. This 286 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 1: leads to my next question. I guess it's there's it's 287 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 1: the two potential A. If Tracy's entire apartment good to 288 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 1: go into the ocean, who pays her for that? But 289 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 1: be who is paying right now? Assuming Tracy does get 290 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:39,200 Speaker 1: her stuff? But how are the sort of costs of 291 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 1: delay allocated? Right? We all we all remember the law 292 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:46,760 Speaker 1: of general averages from previous episodes. So I'm also worried 293 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:48,960 Speaker 1: about my liability and whether or not I end up 294 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 1: paying for the contents of this entire ship. Well, I'm 295 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 1: glad you mentioned Tracey, because that's what I was gonna lose. Tom. 296 00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:58,960 Speaker 1: I'm hoping you have insurance on this because right now, 297 00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 1: this this entire salvage is being done by Evergreen, the 298 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 1: company associated with this, and they have not yet declared 299 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:09,160 Speaker 1: general average, in which case the cargo would have to 300 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 1: bear a portion of the salvage. Right now, it's under 301 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 1: the protection and indemnity club that ensures the vessel. So 302 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 1: they're paying for the salvage right now. And you know 303 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:23,520 Speaker 1: they contracted with Don John SMIT, which is actually a 304 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 1: combined company doing the salvage. SMIT had done the salvage 305 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 1: on ever given in the Suez, and so now Don 306 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:33,440 Speaker 1: John Smit are doing this. And again there are certain 307 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 1: liabilities they're gonna have to be looked at. Number One, 308 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:38,320 Speaker 1: cargo delay. Uh, this cargo is not going to be 309 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 1: delivered on time, so there may be liabilities against that. 310 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:45,600 Speaker 1: But again, if the vessel has a catastrophic issue, then 311 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 1: that may be something that has to be done. And 312 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:53,000 Speaker 1: under shipping agreements, the cargo bears part of the responsibility. 313 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 1: If they declare general average, then the question becomes does 314 00:16:56,560 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 1: the cargo pay. This is why whenever you ship anything 315 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 1: you need to get insurance on it because if not, 316 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:05,119 Speaker 1: you open yourself up to huge liability. They may have 317 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 1: to start taking containers off this vessel if they really 318 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:11,840 Speaker 1: if they think they can't move it safely. She didn't 319 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:14,520 Speaker 1: have that much ballast on her because the ship has 320 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:18,520 Speaker 1: offloaded cargo. Ships tend not to take ballast in what 321 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:20,480 Speaker 1: they call brown water. They like to do it out 322 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:22,200 Speaker 1: in the ocean and blue water, because they have to 323 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:26,000 Speaker 1: run that ballast water through a system to clean it, 324 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 1: to purify it. And that's expensive because you have to 325 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:31,679 Speaker 1: pump off that material at the end. So this ship 326 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 1: probably didn't have very much ballast on board. They were 327 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:37,560 Speaker 1: probably gonna ballast after they left New York. So that 328 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 1: means taking fuel off. And if that's not enough, the 329 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:42,400 Speaker 1: problem with that is it raises the center of gravity 330 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:44,400 Speaker 1: of the vessel. That means you're gonna start taking those 331 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:47,480 Speaker 1: loaded containers at the very top off and that is 332 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:50,240 Speaker 1: a complicated problem. You need huge cranes to come out 333 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:53,560 Speaker 1: to do it. It's a very slow process, but that 334 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:56,640 Speaker 1: may be necessary. While we're here and look at reading 335 00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:58,440 Speaker 1: a little bit more about the Foreign Dredge Act of 336 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:02,879 Speaker 1: suddenly really that you know, I know, sometimes like you 337 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:05,760 Speaker 1: talk about, oh, can the President suspend or pause the 338 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:08,960 Speaker 1: Jones Act? And sometimes you hear about that during emergencies, 339 00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:11,399 Speaker 1: can the president do anything that could we get a 340 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:14,920 Speaker 1: bigger dredge from another country just temporarily you can waive 341 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 1: the Dredge Act and bring it in the problem you have, 342 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:20,120 Speaker 1: of course, is whatever foreign dredge exist is not here, 343 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:23,680 Speaker 1: it's gonna be a delay to get it over here. 344 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:25,920 Speaker 1: And one of the reasons that this Dredge Act was 345 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:29,240 Speaker 1: enacted was to ensure that we had dredges in the 346 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 1: United States that could do this, so that in case 347 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:35,120 Speaker 1: of an emergency, in case of an accident like this 348 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:38,360 Speaker 1: where a ship runs aground. Unfortunately, ever Forward went out 349 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:41,439 Speaker 1: of the channel. She hasn't blocked Baltimore, so you know, 350 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:44,160 Speaker 1: we still see the free movement. However, when they do 351 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 1: salvage her, she's going to temporarily block the channel to 352 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:49,679 Speaker 1: bring it out. But I think this again goes to 353 00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:51,879 Speaker 1: that idea of infrastructure. You know, one of the things 354 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:54,400 Speaker 1: we're not talking about two is the size of tugs. 355 00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:57,639 Speaker 1: You know, it was estimated that this ship grounded and 356 00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:00,280 Speaker 1: there's a grounding force. The amount of poll you would 357 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 1: need to pull her off, according to naval architects. I've 358 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:07,359 Speaker 1: talked to the marine industry uh AXCUME ME, the Marine 359 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:10,880 Speaker 1: Innovation Safety Lab. They've estimated it's going to take anywhere 360 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 1: from twenty to two thousand metric tons of pull to 361 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 1: get her off. A normal tug pulls about sixty tons, 362 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:22,440 Speaker 1: So it gives you the idea of of what you need. 363 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:25,160 Speaker 1: And again we're not investing a lot in our tug boats, 364 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:27,480 Speaker 1: which sounds very small. I know it's not a very 365 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:30,879 Speaker 1: sexy topic, but in truth, as these vessels get bigger, 366 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:33,280 Speaker 1: they're much bigger than the tugs that were designed to 367 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:44,360 Speaker 1: handle vessels ten twenty thirty years ago. You know, we've 368 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:47,119 Speaker 1: seen okay, at least two of these incidents at this 369 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:51,320 Speaker 1: point involving large ships getting stuck somewhere and then all 370 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:54,679 Speaker 1: the efforts to actually move them. What are the chances that, 371 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:59,240 Speaker 1: instead of building out the infrastructure, so getting bigger dredgers, 372 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:03,080 Speaker 1: getting bigger to boats, widening channels and things like that, 373 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:06,800 Speaker 1: that we settled for smaller container ships. Is that realistic 374 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:10,240 Speaker 1: or desirable at all? Well, I would say two things 375 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 1: on that trace. Number one, we will continue to get 376 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 1: vessels bigger and larger than even this, because insurance companies 377 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:21,840 Speaker 1: will keep ensuring them, and ports will keep accepting them, 378 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:24,439 Speaker 1: and operators will keep getting them. I should say that 379 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:28,600 Speaker 1: right now, right in the midst of this grounding, Evergreen, 380 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 1: the parent company, just ordered three ultra large container vessels, 381 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 1: twenty four thousand box vessels. They did the same thing, 382 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:37,719 Speaker 1: by the way, when ever given had run Ashore. Literally 383 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:39,879 Speaker 1: a day or two after ever Given ran Ashore, they 384 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:42,959 Speaker 1: placed a huge order for these vessels. They love these 385 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:47,040 Speaker 1: vessels because their economy of scale. Again, you know, the longer, wider, 386 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:51,280 Speaker 1: bigger makeum, the more efficient it is for them. There 387 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:53,560 Speaker 1: are things that can be done to do this. The 388 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:58,359 Speaker 1: problem is it shifts cost onto transportation, which in turn 389 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:01,399 Speaker 1: in turn gets passed on to the consumer. If you 390 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:04,840 Speaker 1: slow down these vessels, if if you you know, require 391 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:07,399 Speaker 1: tug escorts and things like that, you're going to make 392 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 1: it more expensive. And if you go for smaller vessels, 393 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:12,720 Speaker 1: that becomes even more expensive. We can talk for hours 394 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:15,119 Speaker 1: about this. I found this conversation to be riveting. But 395 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 1: you know, just my last question is basically we had 396 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:22,639 Speaker 1: the ever Given, now the ever forward a. How like 397 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:25,439 Speaker 1: rare is this? I mean, like, you know, normally I 398 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:29,359 Speaker 1: don't think ships running aground, particularly if they don't either 399 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:31,120 Speaker 1: in the US or if they don't block the Swiss 400 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:33,679 Speaker 1: Canal probably get much news attention. How rare is it 401 00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:35,760 Speaker 1: to have these sort of two big incidents within the 402 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:38,480 Speaker 1: span of I guess, I guess a year. But then also, 403 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:43,639 Speaker 1: how much generally is are these attributable to the overall 404 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:46,959 Speaker 1: shipping conditions, which we talked about being extremely tight. I'm 405 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:49,159 Speaker 1: thinking about, Okay, they are going maybe a little faster 406 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 1: than they should be, or going to ports that they 407 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:55,119 Speaker 1: might not otherwise be going to do to redistribution of 408 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:58,040 Speaker 1: port capacity. So how much how unusual is this? But 409 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:00,040 Speaker 1: how much can we sort of tie these in it 410 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:04,159 Speaker 1: into the tight global shipping market. Well, I think in 411 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:06,119 Speaker 1: terms of the size of the vessels, that's that's the 412 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:08,679 Speaker 1: big issue we're seeing right now. So ships du ground 413 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:11,120 Speaker 1: fairly commonly. It was just a mare ship that grounded 414 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:14,199 Speaker 1: on the approaches into Germany, for example, but they were 415 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:17,240 Speaker 1: able to free her fairly quickly. The problem with big 416 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:20,560 Speaker 1: vessels like ever Given, like ever Forward, is that when 417 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:24,520 Speaker 1: an incident happens with them, they magnify the level of 418 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 1: of salvage needed because there's so much bigger than we're 419 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:30,400 Speaker 1: talking about. Again, ever Forward is smaller than ever Given, 420 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:32,520 Speaker 1: but she still were a thousand feet long. She's is 421 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:35,720 Speaker 1: longer than the largest aircraft carrier we have. So they're 422 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:39,400 Speaker 1: tremendous vessels that we're talking about, and any incident involving 423 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 1: them requires a lot more resources than we've had in 424 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:46,000 Speaker 1: the past. So I think you have that element about it. 425 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:49,640 Speaker 1: And again, this fuels the world economy because we're able 426 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:54,520 Speaker 1: to move goods seamlessly at very low transportation costs. And 427 00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:57,200 Speaker 1: particularly again you know, ever forward is a good indication 428 00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:00,399 Speaker 1: of that movement of cargo from the West coast to 429 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:03,800 Speaker 1: the East coast. I think on the other aspect there 430 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:06,520 Speaker 1: that you were kind of alluding to, I think we 431 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:08,680 Speaker 1: also have issues we have to remember during COVID, This 432 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:11,040 Speaker 1: has been going on now for two years, and one 433 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:13,520 Speaker 1: of the stories that doesn't get a lot of attention, unfortunately, 434 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:15,960 Speaker 1: is the one point eight million mariners who crew these 435 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:19,520 Speaker 1: vessels and issues with everything from being able to get 436 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:23,080 Speaker 1: them off for normal crew rotations. Uh. You know, as 437 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:25,240 Speaker 1: the ships get bigger and larger, the crews get smaller, 438 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:28,440 Speaker 1: and and you know now with with cruise, because most 439 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:30,760 Speaker 1: of this is done by feign crews top five you 440 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:34,280 Speaker 1: know crewing nations in the world. You know Indonesia, India, China, 441 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:37,720 Speaker 1: Philippines and Russia. You know, those crews can't get off 442 00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:40,439 Speaker 1: in Baltimore typically and fly home for a crew rotation, 443 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 1: and some ports during COVID wouldn't let the cruise even 444 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 1: step on the dock. And so where you would have 445 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:48,680 Speaker 1: crews on board for two, four or six months there 446 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:51,879 Speaker 1: over a year on board, and so you know, I 447 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:54,919 Speaker 1: think I think crew rotation, crew fatigue, and you know 448 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 1: what we expect of these marriage. Plus we're we're shopping 449 00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:01,040 Speaker 1: around for the cheapest mariners out there too, so you 450 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:02,960 Speaker 1: know we're looking. You know, hey, you're getting too expensive. 451 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:05,400 Speaker 1: So I'm going to go to this country next and 452 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:08,480 Speaker 1: and go get them. And unfortunately, you know, mariners don't 453 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:10,960 Speaker 1: really register very well. Look at the you know, nearly 454 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 1: dozen dozens of ships stuck in Ukraine right now that 455 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:17,119 Speaker 1: you know the mariners are trying to get off, and 456 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 1: and not a lot of stories about those unfortunate Yeah, 457 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 1: we had COVID and people stuck because of those restrictions, 458 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:26,080 Speaker 1: and now the situation in Ukraine as well, it just 459 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:28,639 Speaker 1: seems never ending. We're going to have to leave it 460 00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:32,200 Speaker 1: there because we are rushing this out as a bonus episode, 461 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 1: so we're a bit limited on time, but really appreciate 462 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:36,479 Speaker 1: you coming on, and I have a feeling we might 463 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:39,000 Speaker 1: end up speaking about this again. We've got to have 464 00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 1: Sale back. I could talk to Sale. Thank you so 465 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:44,360 Speaker 1: much coming on. Thank you for having me guys. So 466 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:47,320 Speaker 1: that was a sal Murcogliano. I should just say his 467 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:50,080 Speaker 1: YouTube channel is called what is going On with Shipping, 468 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:53,679 Speaker 1: and he's providing really detailed updates of what's going on 469 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:55,920 Speaker 1: with the ever forward, So if you're interested, you should 470 00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:58,560 Speaker 1: definitely check those out. So, Joe, I just have to 471 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:02,440 Speaker 1: clarify one thing because our producer actually messaged me while 472 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:05,440 Speaker 1: we were discussing, um, what's going on in the intro, 473 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:08,200 Speaker 1: and he asked me if I'm joking about my stuff 474 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:11,520 Speaker 1: being stuck on the ship. For total clarity, I am 475 00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:14,320 Speaker 1: not joking. There's a lot of nervous laughter here because 476 00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:17,679 Speaker 1: it is quite stressful to think that everything that I 477 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:20,080 Speaker 1: have might be stuck on a ship that's you know, 478 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:24,080 Speaker 1: there's a question mark over whether it's going to be 479 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:26,400 Speaker 1: able to get off of its mud bank. But yes, 480 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:29,159 Speaker 1: my stuff is actually on that ship. Yeah, this is 481 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:31,720 Speaker 1: so crazy and so wild, and I'm like, I just 482 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:35,600 Speaker 1: want to say, I'm thinking about making my entire identity 483 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:40,479 Speaker 1: be one of repealing the Foreign Dredge Act of I 484 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:43,080 Speaker 1: think that could be like a new like I might 485 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:46,480 Speaker 1: make that my thing. It is like a really like 486 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:49,119 Speaker 1: to learn, like we have a shortage of dredge capacity. 487 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:52,560 Speaker 1: We have a shortage of tugboat capacity in the US. 488 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:55,359 Speaker 1: So many interesting things I learned in that short period 489 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:57,639 Speaker 1: of time. And I'm very sad that you don't have 490 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:01,560 Speaker 1: your stuff from Hong Kong, but I'm selfishly happy that 491 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:06,159 Speaker 1: this turned into such a illuminating discussion we get to 492 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:07,960 Speaker 1: talk more about it. I would just say, you know, 493 00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 1: I am now the face of structural under investment in 494 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:15,280 Speaker 1: our ports and our tugboats and our dredges, and you know, 495 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:18,879 Speaker 1: it's inconvenient not being able to sit on the couch 496 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:21,879 Speaker 1: for over two months now. Um, I would like to 497 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:25,200 Speaker 1: have a couch at some point. But I did also 498 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:28,040 Speaker 1: think that Sala's point about what's going on with seafarers 499 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:31,240 Speaker 1: is an important one because that has been two years 500 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:35,520 Speaker 1: of a regulatory and logistical nightmare for people who are 501 00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:39,560 Speaker 1: actually working on ships, and especially in Asia. We heard 502 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:42,520 Speaker 1: stories of people, you know, who had been stuck on 503 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 1: board and couldn't get home for months, if not more 504 00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:49,680 Speaker 1: than a year at a time. So definitely worth mentioning. Yeah, 505 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 1: we talked about the physical infrastructure a lot, but the 506 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,520 Speaker 1: toll on the people actually keeping it going it is 507 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:58,320 Speaker 1: obviously met. Yeah, all right, well, it looks like we 508 00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:01,639 Speaker 1: have a lot more to discuss on the shipping front, 509 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,240 Speaker 1: and I'm sure we'll have some future episodes on this topic, 510 00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:06,160 Speaker 1: but for now, shall we leave it there? Let's leave 511 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:08,919 Speaker 1: it there? All right? This has been another episode of 512 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:11,639 Speaker 1: the All Thoughts podcast. I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow 513 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,320 Speaker 1: me on Twitter at Tracy Alloway and I'm Joe Why 514 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:16,920 Speaker 1: Isn't All? You can follow me on Twitter at the Stalwart. 515 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:21,600 Speaker 1: Follow our guest Sam Rcagliano. He's at marcagliano s. Also 516 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:24,600 Speaker 1: definitely check out his YouTube's big thanks for our producers, 517 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:28,400 Speaker 1: Magnus Hendrickson and Colin Tipton. Follow the Bloomberg head of podcast, 518 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,919 Speaker 1: Francesca Levi at Francesca Today, and check out all of 519 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 1: our podcasts in Bloomberg under the handle at podcasts. Thanks 520 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:36,280 Speaker 1: for listening.