WEBVTT - Ukrainian Refugees Cannot Get Into U.S. Easily 0:00:03.200 --> 0:00:07.960 This is Bloomberg Law with June Brusso from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:17.400 Since the invasion by Russia, about three million Ukrainians have 0:00:17.520 --> 0:00:21.720 fled their country, the vast majority to European Union countries, 0:00:22.000 --> 0:00:25.720 which allow them to travel visa free. President Biden praised 0:00:25.720 --> 0:00:29.000 the Irish Prime Minister this week for his country's welcome 0:00:29.080 --> 0:00:32.440 to Ukrainians. What Ireland is doing now, what you're doing 0:00:33.080 --> 0:00:38.680 taking in Ukrainian refugees. Speak so loudly about your principles, 0:00:39.560 --> 0:00:42.680 and it's amazing, and I want to public recompliment you 0:00:42.760 --> 0:00:45.800 for it. But what about the Ukrainians who want to 0:00:45.840 --> 0:00:48.720 come to the United States to join family here? The 0:00:48.800 --> 0:00:52.640 Biden administration has done nothing to help those refugees get 0:00:52.640 --> 0:00:56.560 into the country, a process that's far from easy. My 0:00:56.640 --> 0:00:59.240 guest is Leon Fresco, a partner at Holland and Knight 0:00:59.600 --> 0:01:04.200 and a immigration official in the Obama administration. Clean are 0:01:04.240 --> 0:01:08.000 many Ukrainians trying to get into the country. Many Ukrainians 0:01:08.000 --> 0:01:10.800 are trying to get into the United States. I'm getting 0:01:10.840 --> 0:01:13.039 calls in my law as you know, I'm a private 0:01:13.040 --> 0:01:16.680 attorney when I'm not on Bloomberg, and I'm getting called 0:01:17.080 --> 0:01:20.600 all the time from people all over our country. You'd 0:01:20.600 --> 0:01:23.200 be shocked how many people seem to have connections to 0:01:23.400 --> 0:01:26.720 people in Ukraine and they all want to figure out 0:01:26.760 --> 0:01:29.839 what can be done. And so what's complicated is there 0:01:29.880 --> 0:01:33.120 are some well meaning pieces of information that are not 0:01:33.200 --> 0:01:35.959 exactly accurate. So you'll hear in all the United States 0:01:35.959 --> 0:01:39.559 is letting in Ukrainian refugees as we speak. But those 0:01:39.680 --> 0:01:43.640 Ukrainian refugees are people that have been vetted for many years, 0:01:43.720 --> 0:01:47.360 who are refugees from the Russian annexation of Primea. So 0:01:47.840 --> 0:01:51.880 they're not people who are refugees from last week. There 0:01:51.880 --> 0:01:55.560 are people who are refugees from many years ago. And 0:01:55.680 --> 0:01:59.600 so the problem with saying we will welcome refugees is 0:02:00.240 --> 0:02:04.400 refugee process could take a year or two years, and 0:02:04.440 --> 0:02:06.960 then the question is we don't know what the state 0:02:07.000 --> 0:02:10.440 of affairs in Ukraine will be at that point. Maybe 0:02:10.520 --> 0:02:13.840 there will be no refugee issue in Ukraine a year 0:02:13.960 --> 0:02:16.400 or two from now, and so the question is what, 0:02:16.600 --> 0:02:19.959 if anything, the Biden administration can do now. And so 0:02:20.080 --> 0:02:24.720 here is where you have a doctrinal issue versus sort 0:02:24.720 --> 0:02:27.360 of what I would call a compacion issue, which is 0:02:27.680 --> 0:02:30.800 plenty of people are seeking to come here on student visas, 0:02:30.840 --> 0:02:36.400 now on visitor visa, humanitarian parole applications. And it's just 0:02:36.440 --> 0:02:39.800 gonna come down to whether the Biden administration provides guidance 0:02:40.000 --> 0:02:43.959 saying that that's okay to let people come here and 0:02:44.120 --> 0:02:48.240 say during the duration of the crisis, essentially knowing that 0:02:48.639 --> 0:02:52.520 hopefully some large segment of those individuals would go back 0:02:52.840 --> 0:02:55.960 if the war word is subsided. Or are they going 0:02:56.000 --> 0:03:00.639 to take a more doctrinal, dogmatic approach and say, look, 0:03:00.680 --> 0:03:03.320 you can't come on a visitor visa if you're from 0:03:03.440 --> 0:03:05.800 Ukraine because we have no evidence you're gonna come back. 0:03:06.240 --> 0:03:08.959 We can't give you a student visa you're from Ukraine 0:03:09.080 --> 0:03:11.600 because we have no evidence you're gonna come back, etcetera. 0:03:12.000 --> 0:03:15.079 The more of those pathways that they cut off, the 0:03:15.080 --> 0:03:18.400 harder it's gonna be. And what you'll see, and you're 0:03:18.440 --> 0:03:22.279 starting to see some batterings of this is actually Ukrainians 0:03:22.280 --> 0:03:25.680 appearing on the southern border and just applying for asylum 0:03:25.720 --> 0:03:28.840 on the southern border. And if that's the only way 0:03:28.840 --> 0:03:32.560 you're gonna let Ukrainians in, that's the way that Ukrainians 0:03:32.560 --> 0:03:36.040 are gonna use if and I repeat, if they have 0:03:36.240 --> 0:03:39.760 an American family member that's arranging this for them, and 0:03:39.880 --> 0:03:42.280 that's usually what you would see if the American family 0:03:42.320 --> 0:03:45.760 member would say, Okay, fly to Mexico and then we'll 0:03:45.760 --> 0:03:47.880 work it so that you can apply for asylum at 0:03:48.080 --> 0:03:51.480 support of entry between the United States and Mexico. Let's 0:03:51.480 --> 0:03:54.440 say someone calls you up and says, my family's in 0:03:54.560 --> 0:03:57.400 Ukraine now or went from Ukraine to Poland. I want 0:03:57.440 --> 0:04:01.040 to get them into this country. Besides flying to Mexico. 0:04:01.440 --> 0:04:05.640 What else can you do? Well, the most compelling legal 0:04:05.760 --> 0:04:10.040 options in terms of what you would do doctrinally, is 0:04:10.080 --> 0:04:14.520 something called the humanitarian parole, and you would ask them 0:04:14.640 --> 0:04:17.000 to put together a pocket that you would assist that 0:04:17.120 --> 0:04:21.120 baking with their information and why they can't say where 0:04:21.120 --> 0:04:24.799 they are and why as a humanitarian nature, the United 0:04:24.800 --> 0:04:27.880 States should give them a one year parole to sort 0:04:27.920 --> 0:04:30.480 of weather the storm here, and then after that one 0:04:30.560 --> 0:04:33.520 year they can leave and showing that they have sufficient 0:04:33.520 --> 0:04:36.560 family ties here, that they have an economic sponsor here 0:04:36.839 --> 0:04:39.320 who can take care of them while they're here, which 0:04:39.360 --> 0:04:42.359 would usually be some very close family member with a 0:04:42.400 --> 0:04:45.400 pretty decent income, and you would let the chips fall 0:04:45.440 --> 0:04:48.800 where they may. We're at the beginning stages of this process. 0:04:49.080 --> 0:04:52.000 U s c i S endeavors to give decisions in 0:04:52.160 --> 0:04:55.599 ninety days of these parole applications, but we'll know in 0:04:55.640 --> 0:04:57.560 a few weeks whether U s c i S is 0:04:57.600 --> 0:05:02.280 treating these claims compassionately or not. And quite frankly, the 0:05:02.320 --> 0:05:04.839 state of affairs may be completely different in the next 0:05:04.839 --> 0:05:08.039 few weeks than it is right now. So we don't know. 0:05:08.360 --> 0:05:10.640 A lot of this is going to be wait and see, 0:05:11.040 --> 0:05:14.159 but that's the main way, and the U s CIS 0:05:14.240 --> 0:05:18.240 being the United States Citizenship and Immigration Services leon. What 0:05:18.279 --> 0:05:21.359 about getting in with a student visa or a tourist visa. 0:05:21.760 --> 0:05:24.680 People can come in very quickly if they could get 0:05:24.720 --> 0:05:27.679 admitted it to a university, but you'd have to find 0:05:27.800 --> 0:05:31.040 some open embassy of ours. It would either be our 0:05:31.080 --> 0:05:35.039 embassy in Poland, our embassy in Moldova, embassy in Romania, 0:05:35.600 --> 0:05:37.600 or if you could even get further with you know, 0:05:37.880 --> 0:05:40.839 Germany or wherever you could get to in order to 0:05:40.880 --> 0:05:44.640 get yourself an appointment for a student visa. But in 0:05:44.680 --> 0:05:48.680 that situation, you're gonna need an adjudicator who's going to 0:05:48.800 --> 0:05:52.640 not take so seriously the fact that you're from Ukraine 0:05:52.680 --> 0:05:55.520 and might not be able to return because one of 0:05:55.560 --> 0:05:58.479 the criteria for students visa if you have to be 0:05:58.880 --> 0:06:00.960 a person who can show that you would leave the 0:06:01.040 --> 0:06:03.960 United States after your studies are over. And so the 0:06:04.040 --> 0:06:06.640 question is are they going to say that Ukraine gives 0:06:06.720 --> 0:06:10.200 us a facto matter, aren't going to return? So those 0:06:10.240 --> 0:06:12.920 are the questions that are being wrestled with. And then 0:06:12.960 --> 0:06:15.680 a lot of people want to just come on visitor visas, 0:06:16.000 --> 0:06:18.760 which would give you six months of the United States. 0:06:18.800 --> 0:06:22.000 But there's two problems there. One, the embassies all over 0:06:22.040 --> 0:06:25.440 the world have about two year wait time for visitor 0:06:25.560 --> 0:06:28.680 visa applications because of COVID. But even if you could 0:06:28.680 --> 0:06:31.719 get yourself in for a visitor visa appointment, will the 0:06:31.760 --> 0:06:35.400 embassy say you're not gonna truly visit. You're gonna say 0:06:35.480 --> 0:06:37.520 you're never going back, so we're not going to give 0:06:37.520 --> 0:06:40.279 you a visitor visa. And so that's the challenge with 0:06:40.320 --> 0:06:43.920 the visitor visa and the student visa. The Bonding administration 0:06:44.040 --> 0:06:49.200 has given Ukrainians who are already here temporary protected status, 0:06:49.320 --> 0:06:53.240 right right, But you can't come here now and get 0:06:53.279 --> 0:06:56.839 temporary protective status. But for the people who are already 0:06:56.920 --> 0:06:59.760 here on the first day of the commencement of the 0:06:59.800 --> 0:07:04.920 how facilities in Ukraine. Those individuals can stay now until 0:07:05.080 --> 0:07:08.760 that temporary protective status is one day taken away. And 0:07:08.880 --> 0:07:10.840 I don't know if and when that would ever happen, 0:07:11.120 --> 0:07:13.840 but for the moment, those people, even if their visa 0:07:14.120 --> 0:07:18.160 has expired, can take advantage of this temporary protective status 0:07:18.200 --> 0:07:21.000 in order to remain here and work lawfully in the 0:07:21.080 --> 0:07:24.400 United States. And so bottom line is the Biden administration 0:07:24.480 --> 0:07:30.080 hasn't done anything so far to open our country's doors 0:07:30.120 --> 0:07:35.560 to Ukrainian refugees. Correct, There's been no policy change that 0:07:35.600 --> 0:07:39.280 has said how it would be easier for a Ukrainian 0:07:39.400 --> 0:07:43.080 to access the United States. They haven't said, hey, apply 0:07:43.240 --> 0:07:49.440 for humanitarian parole if you have a US citizen foused parents, child, 0:07:50.080 --> 0:07:52.840 or sibling. You know, if as an example, and we'll 0:07:52.880 --> 0:07:55.640 give a one year humanitarian parole. They have an issued 0:07:55.680 --> 0:07:58.160 a memmo like that. They have an issued a memo 0:07:58.240 --> 0:08:00.960 that says here's how you can act that's the refugee 0:08:01.000 --> 0:08:05.280 program if you're in Poland or in Moldova or Romania. 0:08:05.320 --> 0:08:08.280 They haven't done anything like that. So everybody's just trying 0:08:08.360 --> 0:08:12.120 to figure out a way to kind of go through 0:08:12.120 --> 0:08:15.960 this roof Goldberg divice that is our immigration system to 0:08:16.040 --> 0:08:19.280 get their body into the US. The problem that happens 0:08:19.320 --> 0:08:22.679 with all of these issues is if you don't take 0:08:22.720 --> 0:08:25.920 the trouble to plan something out and issue something, then 0:08:25.960 --> 0:08:28.680 what you will inevitably see with some number of people 0:08:28.840 --> 0:08:30.800 is well, then I'm just going to take the most 0:08:30.800 --> 0:08:34.120 direct round. I'm appearing at the southern border, and I'm 0:08:34.160 --> 0:08:36.480 making an asylum play lee, and I want to turn 0:08:36.520 --> 0:08:40.319 to another immigration topic. Now, migrants have been expelled more 0:08:40.360 --> 0:08:44.240 than one point six million times under Title forty two, 0:08:44.520 --> 0:08:48.200 which was introduced in March of to prevent the spread 0:08:48.240 --> 0:08:52.920 of COVID nineteen. However, the Binding Administration now says unaccompanied 0:08:52.960 --> 0:08:56.280 migrant children trying to enter the United States will not 0:08:56.360 --> 0:08:59.600 be denied a chance to seek asylum. The same as 0:08:59.640 --> 0:09:03.559 not true for adults and families traveling with children joining 0:09:03.559 --> 0:09:06.560 me is Leon Fresco, a partner at Hollandon Knight, just 0:09:06.880 --> 0:09:12.480 review what the broader policy has been since known as 0:09:12.480 --> 0:09:16.880 titled Well, at the same time that the COVID national 0:09:16.920 --> 0:09:21.319 emergency was declared, and the Trump administration was the administration 0:09:21.360 --> 0:09:23.720 that was in power at the time of the COVID 0:09:23.840 --> 0:09:28.600 national emergency. The administration also decided to at the same 0:09:28.600 --> 0:09:33.280 time have two different kinds of health related travel bans. 0:09:33.880 --> 0:09:36.800 The first kind of health related travel bans were the 0:09:37.000 --> 0:09:40.000 very similar types of travel bands that had been put 0:09:40.040 --> 0:09:45.040 into place because of the the Middle Eastern countries and 0:09:45.120 --> 0:09:47.640 things of that nature, and that was the travel band 0:09:47.720 --> 0:09:51.360 authority under I n A Section to twelve F. But 0:09:51.480 --> 0:09:55.200 then secondly, the administration needed to put a travel ban 0:09:55.360 --> 0:09:58.120 on the border. Because the I n A Section to 0:09:58.280 --> 0:10:02.680 twelve F travel bands only covered entry from foreign countries 0:10:03.320 --> 0:10:06.480 in terms of legal immigration, they needed to do something 0:10:06.520 --> 0:10:11.040 that would permit them to expel even asylum speakers from 0:10:11.080 --> 0:10:15.000 the United States. And so that's something called Title forty 0:10:15.080 --> 0:10:18.560 two authority under the US Code, and that's in the 0:10:18.600 --> 0:10:20.839 Public Health section of the Code, is actually not in 0:10:20.920 --> 0:10:24.360 the Immigration section of the Code. And what that says 0:10:24.480 --> 0:10:28.640 is that during an emergency involving a communicable disease, the 0:10:28.920 --> 0:10:33.000 CDC Director can instruct the Department of Homeland Security to 0:10:33.240 --> 0:10:37.760 exclude any foreign nationals trying to enter the United States. 0:10:37.840 --> 0:10:41.000 And so that's been the state of affairs since March 0:10:41.080 --> 0:10:46.400 of till this day. Leon Why did the CDC come 0:10:46.440 --> 0:10:51.960 out with this new guidance for migrant children traveling alone. Well, 0:10:52.000 --> 0:10:57.240 there's been litigation in the DC Circuit, and this litigation 0:10:57.320 --> 0:11:02.440 actually in disregard for unaccount any children, actually didn't change 0:11:02.520 --> 0:11:06.199 much practically on the ground. The DC circule litigation is 0:11:06.240 --> 0:11:09.720 called we Shall, we Shall versus Majorkis, and it's trying 0:11:09.760 --> 0:11:12.280 to offend all of the use of the Title forty 0:11:12.320 --> 0:11:15.959 two for everyone. It's a southern border. But they did 0:11:15.960 --> 0:11:18.640 not get a victory in the DC Circuit fully, But 0:11:18.760 --> 0:11:23.440 what they did get is this understanding that for unaccompanied children, 0:11:23.960 --> 0:11:28.760 there's a separate statutory regime that's been played for what 0:11:28.880 --> 0:11:33.400 happens when an unaccompanied child reaches the border, and that 0:11:33.559 --> 0:11:35.760 statutory regime is that they have to go to the 0:11:35.760 --> 0:11:39.520 Department of Health and Human Services, they have to get inspected, 0:11:39.600 --> 0:11:42.120 they get chops. If they don't have the shops, they 0:11:42.160 --> 0:11:45.600 then get put into the custody of either a shelter 0:11:46.240 --> 0:11:48.520 or of an adult in the United States who can 0:11:48.600 --> 0:11:51.800 take custody of that child. And then they're put in 0:11:51.880 --> 0:11:55.360 removal proceedings while they're in that person of custody, and 0:11:55.600 --> 0:11:58.679 sometimes they can win their proceedings, sometimes they don't win, 0:11:59.120 --> 0:12:01.640 and so the idea was you could not operate Title 0:12:01.720 --> 0:12:06.199 forty two on those other company children because the Congress 0:12:06.200 --> 0:12:08.720 I've said very clearly what it wanted to be done, 0:12:09.240 --> 0:12:14.320 and Title forty two didn't supersede those statutory provisions with 0:12:14.400 --> 0:12:17.400 regard to what he did for un accompanied children. So 0:12:17.480 --> 0:12:23.160 then why the CDC announcement. Well, the CDC then solidified 0:12:23.800 --> 0:12:26.319 the guidance from the court, which is to stay, fine, 0:12:26.400 --> 0:12:28.840 you don't need to give us an injunction. We're not 0:12:28.880 --> 0:12:31.600 gonna do this, So we can move out this part 0:12:31.640 --> 0:12:34.679 of the case by letting you know that we are 0:12:34.720 --> 0:12:38.360 not going to put on accompany children into Title forty 0:12:38.400 --> 0:12:43.080 two expulsion. But quite frankly, the administration wasn't doing that 0:12:43.720 --> 0:12:45.680 because it's very hard. What are you gonna do with 0:12:45.720 --> 0:12:48.760 a seventeen year old or sixteen year old or even 0:12:48.960 --> 0:12:52.839 god perbided, they're much younger children. If you use this 0:12:53.000 --> 0:12:56.520 Title forty two authority, then you're just expelling them into 0:12:56.559 --> 0:12:59.559 the middle of Mexico and they have no place to go. No, 0:12:59.720 --> 0:13:03.120 for isn't none of that. And so as a practical matter, 0:13:03.760 --> 0:13:06.800 this was only being done in the rarest of cases. 0:13:07.440 --> 0:13:09.720 But nevertheless, nilence is not going to be done at 0:13:09.760 --> 0:13:13.400 all personally to this memo. Now, you were talking about 0:13:13.440 --> 0:13:16.880 a case in the d C circuit in March of 0:13:17.000 --> 0:13:23.360 t there's a conflicting case in Texas just recently tell 0:13:23.440 --> 0:13:27.319 us about that. So in March fourth, the District Court 0:13:27.400 --> 0:13:31.520 for the Northern District of Texas issued a preliminary injunction 0:13:32.240 --> 0:13:36.720 enjoining the CDC from using this title forty two expulsion 0:13:36.760 --> 0:13:41.440 authority against unaccompanied children. And their their decision was that 0:13:41.480 --> 0:13:46.520 they hadn't adequately explained why they would treat unaccompanied children 0:13:46.600 --> 0:13:50.720 differently than other people under the CDC order, and so 0:13:51.440 --> 0:13:53.480 that decision was made, and then it was up to 0:13:53.520 --> 0:13:56.400 the CDC to decide what were they going to do. 0:13:56.440 --> 0:13:59.199 Were they going to challenge that in appeal or were 0:13:59.240 --> 0:14:02.720 they just gonna trying to mood out the injunctions? And 0:14:02.800 --> 0:14:07.120 so what the CDC decided to do in conjunction with 0:14:07.160 --> 0:14:09.880 the Department of Homeland Securities to say, look, this is 0:14:09.880 --> 0:14:13.160 such a rare thing that we're using this title forty 0:14:13.160 --> 0:14:17.199 to authority for unaccompanied children. We're just going to make 0:14:17.240 --> 0:14:20.200 a public health reassessment and say we're not going to 0:14:20.280 --> 0:14:24.000 be using this title forty to authority to expel unaccompanied 0:14:24.080 --> 0:14:28.000 children from the United States, but they're still going to 0:14:28.160 --> 0:14:33.160 use Title forty two to expel migrant adults and families 0:14:33.160 --> 0:14:38.320 with children. Correct, So for migrant adults, such the simplest case, 0:14:38.440 --> 0:14:41.000 which is that the courts of health still so far 0:14:41.560 --> 0:14:47.239 that you can use this authority for cases involving adults 0:14:47.320 --> 0:14:50.640 because adults don't pose any issues with regard to children 0:14:51.040 --> 0:14:55.280 being present. The trickier issue is this litigation as it's 0:14:55.280 --> 0:14:58.239 going to proceed, and what's going to happen with families 0:14:58.320 --> 0:15:03.280 meaning adults and drin that traveled together, and so far 0:15:04.040 --> 0:15:06.720 the courts offense that that can be used for family 0:15:07.360 --> 0:15:11.800 because again this becomes the stain problems as the problem 0:15:11.880 --> 0:15:15.840 we face with regard to detaining families, which is that 0:15:16.320 --> 0:15:20.360 when the court said you couldn't detained families, then that 0:15:20.440 --> 0:15:23.720 led to a very tricky situation where you have to 0:15:23.800 --> 0:15:27.600 decide whether to separate families or let them all in. 0:15:28.560 --> 0:15:31.320 And so the court don't want to get involved with 0:15:31.400 --> 0:15:34.640 that so far under Title forty two, and what they 0:15:34.640 --> 0:15:38.720 are instead doing is saying that you can exclude still 0:15:39.000 --> 0:15:42.840 entire families under Title forty two. So, now is this 0:15:43.040 --> 0:15:48.320 complicated because the d C Appellate Court said last week 0:15:48.600 --> 0:15:53.640 that officials couldn't expel families to places where they could 0:15:53.640 --> 0:15:59.040 be persecuted or harmed. So correct. So so this is 0:15:59.080 --> 0:16:02.840 again I'm not are one of those decisions. That's an 0:16:02.840 --> 0:16:07.800 interesting decision, but it's not a deviation from the practical authority. 0:16:07.920 --> 0:16:09.480 And so what is what do I mean by that? 0:16:10.040 --> 0:16:14.520 What I mean by that is the Department of Homeland Security, 0:16:14.560 --> 0:16:17.840 at least under the Biden administration, not so much under 0:16:17.840 --> 0:16:21.720 the Trump administration, but under the Biden administration was already 0:16:21.920 --> 0:16:27.240 issuing credible fear determinations to try to figure out if 0:16:27.280 --> 0:16:31.160 it was going to expel someone to a country that 0:16:31.200 --> 0:16:34.880 they were going to fear persecution from. As a practical 0:16:34.960 --> 0:16:39.800 matter of these expulsions are going to be to Mexico. 0:16:40.000 --> 0:16:43.040 The only time they wouldn't be to Mexico would be 0:16:43.080 --> 0:16:45.560 if someone was coming on a flight and for some 0:16:45.600 --> 0:16:48.280 reason they were going to be expelled under Title forty two, 0:16:48.400 --> 0:16:52.400 which would be very very very very rare, or if 0:16:52.400 --> 0:16:56.640 there was some very quick ability to expel someone after 0:16:57.080 --> 0:17:01.600 very brief detention back to trill American country. But that's 0:17:01.720 --> 0:17:04.560 very very rare. And so the real question that they 0:17:04.720 --> 0:17:10.119 asked is do you fear persecution in Mexico. And only 0:17:10.160 --> 0:17:13.399 a very small number of people are going to actually 0:17:13.440 --> 0:17:17.160 be able to articulate claims of why they fear persecution 0:17:17.240 --> 0:17:20.280 in Mexico. But nevertheless, what the court has said is 0:17:20.640 --> 0:17:24.360 if someone is going to say, incredibly show that they 0:17:24.400 --> 0:17:28.159 fear persecution in Mexico, then you cannot use Title forty 0:17:28.160 --> 0:17:32.080 to authority to expel them to Mexico. And again, this 0:17:32.160 --> 0:17:34.800 is the same theory as the kid, which is that 0:17:34.840 --> 0:17:38.560 there's a statutory framework in the Statute for what we're 0:17:38.560 --> 0:17:42.200 supposed to do with people that fear persecution, and Title 0:17:42.280 --> 0:17:46.560 forty two again does not supersed that framework. So if 0:17:46.600 --> 0:17:51.120 someone comes from Mexico and says I fear persecution, they'll 0:17:51.160 --> 0:17:55.160 have to be given an asylum hearing. No, what they're 0:17:55.160 --> 0:17:58.760 given is a credible fear screening, and that's a very 0:17:58.840 --> 0:18:02.359 brief screening by employee of the Department of Homeland Security 0:18:02.400 --> 0:18:07.240 where they're at I understand, let's say you're from Central America. 0:18:07.840 --> 0:18:09.960 Here's my question to you. Do you fear that you 0:18:09.960 --> 0:18:12.919 will be harmed in Mexico on the basis of your 0:18:13.000 --> 0:18:17.439 raised religion, national origin, political opinion, or social group and 0:18:17.480 --> 0:18:21.640 if they say no, then they can be expelled into Mexico. 0:18:21.720 --> 0:18:24.560 But if they say yes, then they'll be yes, why 0:18:24.600 --> 0:18:27.840 do you fear you'll be persecuted in Mexico? And only 0:18:27.880 --> 0:18:31.320 if they have a credible answer to that can they 0:18:31.359 --> 0:18:34.960 if they the title forty to authority. Now, that doesn't 0:18:35.000 --> 0:18:38.720 mean that the bid administration apply Title forty two to everyone. 0:18:38.760 --> 0:18:43.600 It actually doesn't. It's very sort of hodgepodge, and that 0:18:43.720 --> 0:18:47.280 on any given day you may see one family get 0:18:47.280 --> 0:18:50.680 applied and so one doesn't get applied. Adults and it 0:18:50.760 --> 0:18:53.480 apply and other adults don't get it applied. There's no 0:18:53.720 --> 0:18:56.000 right or reason to it a lot of times, but 0:18:56.200 --> 0:18:59.200 just the sheer numbers of how many people are getting 0:18:59.240 --> 0:19:02.600 tited forty two like to then, is why this continues 0:19:02.640 --> 0:19:06.040 to be an esue. Immigration advocates are saying that it 0:19:06.160 --> 0:19:09.840 isn't about COVID, the Biden administration is just using this 0:19:10.000 --> 0:19:15.840 as a way to curtail immigration. Well, the question is, 0:19:16.760 --> 0:19:19.719 and WoT does that become true? Because that would certainly 0:19:19.760 --> 0:19:24.320 be true at some point if there is very little 0:19:24.400 --> 0:19:28.480 concern about COVID. There there are no restrictions anywhere else 0:19:28.480 --> 0:19:32.240 in the state but for the southern border. At that point, 0:19:32.320 --> 0:19:36.639 that argument is onefect iron clad. In the world we 0:19:36.720 --> 0:19:40.120 lived in, let's say months ago, we were in a 0:19:40.240 --> 0:19:44.280 very huge state of pendicant concerns or the amicon variant, 0:19:44.600 --> 0:19:48.400 that argument was not very strong. And so the question 0:19:48.520 --> 0:19:51.439 is when did you get to a point where the 0:19:51.520 --> 0:19:55.320 court can actually say that the justification for Title forty 0:19:55.359 --> 0:19:59.040 two is now so flipsy that you're only doing it 0:19:59.160 --> 0:20:02.200 as a way to a a the immigration Code. And 0:20:02.280 --> 0:20:04.920 I don't know when will be there, but I think 0:20:04.920 --> 0:20:09.240 the best proxim will be, Hey, when there's international dribical 0:20:09.359 --> 0:20:13.160 that's taking place where people won't have to do anything 0:20:13.160 --> 0:20:16.480 related to COVID. At that point, you can't have fital 0:20:16.560 --> 0:20:20.760 party to anymore. That's Leon Fresco, a partnered Hollandon Knight. 0:20:22.480 --> 0:20:26.359 Billionaire Leon Black, the co founder of Apollo Global Management, 0:20:26.680 --> 0:20:30.320 sued Gazelle Ganiyeva and her lawyers last year, claiming they 0:20:30.480 --> 0:20:35.280 violated civil racketeering laws by conspiring to destroy him personally 0:20:35.400 --> 0:20:41.040 and professionally. This was after Ganieva had sued Black for defamation, 0:20:41.160 --> 0:20:46.600 intentional infliction of emotional distress, gender motivated violence, and retaliation 0:20:46.960 --> 0:20:49.680 at a federal court hearing, none of the seven lawyers 0:20:49.720 --> 0:20:52.960 present gave the judge an indication that there was a 0:20:53.040 --> 0:20:56.800 prospect for settling the case. Joining me is Bloomberg Legal 0:20:56.840 --> 0:21:01.720 reporter Bob Van Voris Bob tell us about these dueling lawsuits. 0:21:02.680 --> 0:21:08.359 Sure Ganieva, who is a former model and a former 0:21:08.400 --> 0:21:12.960 girlfriend of Leon Black, claims that he raped her and 0:21:13.040 --> 0:21:16.880 that he defamed her in the press. She's suing over 0:21:16.960 --> 0:21:20.800 in state court. He has countered by filing a suit 0:21:20.960 --> 0:21:26.680 in federal court claiming violations of federal racketeering law. Basically, 0:21:26.720 --> 0:21:32.960 he's claiming that Ganieva conspired with PR representatives and used 0:21:32.960 --> 0:21:36.880 her lawyers to defame him and to try to ruin 0:21:37.000 --> 0:21:41.320 his life and his reputation. He claims that the suit 0:21:41.640 --> 0:21:47.679 is basically concocted by Josh Harris, the person who co 0:21:47.760 --> 0:21:52.080 founded Apollo Global with Black, in response to being passed 0:21:52.119 --> 0:21:56.840 over for the role of CEO after him. This is 0:21:56.880 --> 0:22:02.240 basically an internal coup with and Apollo claims Leon Black, 0:22:02.720 --> 0:22:07.000 and that the entire thing was orchestrated by Josh Harris. 0:22:07.200 --> 0:22:11.879 The federal case is a defamation lawsuit based on RICO allegations. 0:22:12.320 --> 0:22:16.240 The federal case is RICO a racketeering suit claiming that 0:22:16.280 --> 0:22:21.480 people conspired to violate federal laws to try to ruin 0:22:21.880 --> 0:22:24.480 black life, and to to de pay them in the press. 0:22:24.640 --> 0:22:29.880 Is that an unusual claim for private citizen to be making. Well, 0:22:29.920 --> 0:22:33.080 it's difficult to make civil claims under the Rico Act. 0:22:33.119 --> 0:22:35.359 There are a whole lot of legal hoops that you 0:22:35.440 --> 0:22:38.000 have to jump through. The people on the other side 0:22:38.040 --> 0:22:43.199 of the suit, Rubenstein, the PR Agency and Josh Harris 0:22:43.200 --> 0:22:47.480 claimed that this complaint comes nowhere close to stating the 0:22:48.200 --> 0:22:49.919 things that they have to state to be able to 0:22:50.000 --> 0:22:53.760 recover against them, so they are moving to dismiss the suit. 0:22:54.240 --> 0:22:59.159 Judge the other day ruled in favor of Black. Black 0:22:59.200 --> 0:23:02.320 has said that Ganiyeva he gave her millions of dollars 0:23:02.320 --> 0:23:06.760 in exchange for her agreement not to talk about their relationship. 0:23:06.880 --> 0:23:09.879 Is that involved in any of this? Yeah, that's one 0:23:09.920 --> 0:23:13.040 of the claims in the state court lawsuit that basically 0:23:13.119 --> 0:23:18.640 she violated this contract. He paid her, and she took 0:23:18.640 --> 0:23:22.520 the money and is out there talking dirt about him, 0:23:22.560 --> 0:23:26.200 and he claims that, you know, he ought to recover 0:23:26.280 --> 0:23:29.280 for that as well. So, now, why were there seven 0:23:29.320 --> 0:23:33.760 attorneys in the hearing in federal court? There were a 0:23:33.760 --> 0:23:38.040 couple of each representing black In Ganieva. There were others 0:23:38.080 --> 0:23:41.800 in representing the other parties in the lawsuits, including Josh 0:23:41.840 --> 0:23:46.320 Harris and the PR Agency. At one point, the judge 0:23:47.240 --> 0:23:51.400 asked if there was any prospect of settlement anytime soon, 0:23:51.960 --> 0:23:53.959 and he said, you know, if you've kind an answer 0:23:54.080 --> 0:23:57.800 other than slim to none, raise your hand. Everyone said 0:23:57.840 --> 0:24:02.040 there's stone still, and no hand were raised. Blacks lawyer 0:24:02.720 --> 0:24:06.240 filed a letter with the judge claiming that her team 0:24:06.240 --> 0:24:09.840 had received WhatsApp messages between Ganieva and a New York 0:24:09.880 --> 0:24:13.520 Times reporter showing that she was working with her lawyer 0:24:13.640 --> 0:24:17.159 months before Ganieva officially retained him. What does that have 0:24:17.280 --> 0:24:20.240 to do with anything, Well, it's it's hard to figure 0:24:20.240 --> 0:24:22.560 out exactly what that has to do anything, if not 0:24:23.440 --> 0:24:26.639 all that unusual to be talking to lawyers before you 0:24:26.760 --> 0:24:31.439 formally retain them. Um, but the other side is saying 0:24:31.440 --> 0:24:34.800 the black side is saying, hey, look, uh, you know 0:24:35.440 --> 0:24:40.800 these lawyers claimed in papers that made a big deal 0:24:40.920 --> 0:24:43.520 out of being retained at a certain point, But it 0:24:43.560 --> 0:24:48.159 turns out they appear to have been talking to Ganieva 0:24:48.400 --> 0:24:53.280 months before that. So if you believe the allegation that 0:24:53.320 --> 0:24:57.600 there's a conspiracy. The conspiracy goes back further than you know, 0:24:58.200 --> 0:25:01.320 than we knew, and and here's evidence of it. One 0:25:01.320 --> 0:25:05.040 of Ganieva's lawyers said, for now, Black's billions have bought 0:25:05.119 --> 0:25:08.040 him access to our court system in a way that 0:25:08.080 --> 0:25:11.119 most people do not have. What was she referring to. 0:25:12.040 --> 0:25:14.520 I think she was referring to the suit itself. That 0:25:14.800 --> 0:25:18.840 he has high priced lawyers pursuing Ganieva in the suit 0:25:18.920 --> 0:25:22.639 that they claim has absolutely no UH basis to be 0:25:22.680 --> 0:25:25.199