1 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:12,160 Speaker 1: Walk and I had a house fire. We had left 2 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 1: for work that morning. We carpooled to work. It was 3 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:17,720 Speaker 1: a normal day, and y'all know how that goes. Anytime 4 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:20,840 Speaker 1: somebody says it was a day like any other, that 5 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:24,080 Speaker 1: means something's about to go down. Well, about mid morning, 6 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:26,840 Speaker 1: I got a call from the fire chief saying, Cheryl, 7 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:29,280 Speaker 1: y'all need to get home. Your house is on fire. 8 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 1: And I was like, well, Chief, do I need to 9 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 1: rush or is there just nothing left? I mean, tell 10 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:38,680 Speaker 1: me what's going on, And he said, no, it's a 11 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:42,559 Speaker 1: pretty good fire, but there's a lot that's been salvaged. Well, 12 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 1: when I got home, of course, all our neighbors were 13 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:48,120 Speaker 1: in the front yard and everybody's there, the fire trucks 14 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:52,040 Speaker 1: and the police, everybody. And to me, the fire had 15 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:55,720 Speaker 1: done a lot of damage, but the fire department with 16 00:00:55,880 --> 00:00:59,640 Speaker 1: their water and the way they dropped the ceilings and 17 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:02,000 Speaker 1: bust it into the walls to make sure there wasn't 18 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 1: any other embers that could have a secondary fire. Later, 19 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:09,760 Speaker 1: I mean, the house just looked totally destroyed. To me. 20 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 1: Our neighbor's house actually caught fire and the flames came 21 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 1: over to our house, so it wasn't even anything we 22 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:20,480 Speaker 1: had anything to do with, but it was still a 23 00:01:20,520 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 1: really strange feeling when you're getting interviewed and questioned by 24 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:31,640 Speaker 1: an Arson investigator. We have somebody so fantastic with us. 25 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:36,039 Speaker 1: Aphrodite Jones. She is a TV personality. She's a best 26 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 1: selling author. She has worked for over thirty years to 27 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:44,320 Speaker 1: bring us up close and personal with some of the 28 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 1: darkest motives and just these emotional type truths behind these crimes. 29 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 1: She was the host of True Crime with Aphrodite Jones 30 00:01:55,040 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 1: for six seasons, a remarkable show. Her best selling books 31 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 1: have been turned into acclaimed films like the award winning 32 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 1: Boys Don't Cry and then the Netflix hit The Staircase. 33 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 1: She has made regular appearances on CNN, CBS, Fox News, MSNBC, 34 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 1: and twenty twenty just the name a few. I first 35 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 1: met her at Crime Con and let me tell you something, smart, 36 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 1: quick witted, and a whole lot of fun, but also 37 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 1: so approachable for people. It is an honor for me 38 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:36,760 Speaker 1: to welcome to own seven afrod Id Jones. 39 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:39,280 Speaker 2: Thank you, Cheryl. It's my honor to be here. 40 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 1: Right. 41 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:42,359 Speaker 2: I love your work. I love what you do helping 42 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:46,400 Speaker 2: people sell cold cases. It's amazing and just today we 43 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:50,959 Speaker 2: hear about Nellie Holloway. You know, it's killer coming forward. 44 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 2: I know you worked on that to start with. Then 45 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:56,440 Speaker 2: I really really am proud to be on the show 46 00:02:56,440 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 2: with you. 47 00:02:56,880 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. And yeah, that was a wonderful day, 48 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 1: wasn't it. We have all worked with Beth and you know, 49 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:05,040 Speaker 1: sent her good vibes and prayed for her and tried 50 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:07,760 Speaker 1: to support her. So I know you've done that well 51 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:09,240 Speaker 1: since two thousand and five. 52 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:11,640 Speaker 2: And then on that I was covering to Michael Jackson 53 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:15,519 Speaker 2: case when that Natalie the report of her missing came out. 54 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 2: That was the last day of the trial, and the 55 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:21,520 Speaker 2: next day you knew, everybody flew out the Aruba. But 56 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:24,080 Speaker 2: it's just what's interesting to me about that, just to 57 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:26,360 Speaker 2: get off topic for a minute, is that you never 58 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 2: really get a confession out of a killer. It's very 59 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:32,079 Speaker 2: rare that Phil admits to anything. Certainly in this news 60 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:34,639 Speaker 2: story I have written, you know, there's no confession. It's 61 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:36,680 Speaker 2: all about I didn't do it if Ruba, you know, 62 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 2: And I just find it unusual, don't you. 63 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:44,080 Speaker 1: It's extremely unusual. And again you know, as you know, 64 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 1: it's something that Beth has literally begged for just tell me. 65 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 1: If I'm not going to get her back, tell me. 66 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 1: And so I saw great peace on her face the 67 00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 1: other day. She was a different person. 68 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 2: She looks relieved. She said that in some form of closure. 69 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 2: She understands that victims don't like the word closure. She's 70 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 2: a ultimate victim. But you know when I say the 71 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 2: ultimate victim for her to have to beg and plead 72 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 2: and spend eighteen years knowing who the killer is, you know, 73 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 2: I mean there's many people that are in cold cases 74 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:19,479 Speaker 2: that they don't know who did this horrible thing, you know, 75 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:21,680 Speaker 2: or they're not sure or they have answers. 76 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:22,320 Speaker 1: This. 77 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:25,720 Speaker 2: We knew it was svander Slout. We knew it. And 78 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:27,280 Speaker 2: he came out and said as much in one of 79 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 2: those documentaries. Remember her way back when somebody caught him 80 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 2: in Germany or something. 81 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:36,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, right, he can fast several times. 82 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, so, you know, just the idea that he had 83 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:41,560 Speaker 2: never been in federal custody before, he had not. They 84 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:45,080 Speaker 2: had no opportunity to bring him to America because Aruba 85 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:47,480 Speaker 2: would not let the FBI in there to do anything, 86 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 2: even though they're standing by it. And you know this 87 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:51,920 Speaker 2: better than anyone, I'm sure your listeners do as well. 88 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 2: But think about how convoluted it is that that he 89 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:00,360 Speaker 2: could not be tried in America for anything other than 90 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:05,800 Speaker 2: extorting money from Natalie's mother. Thank god that happened. But again, 91 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:07,840 Speaker 2: he didn't have to give the details. What do you 92 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:09,600 Speaker 2: for me? You know, I look at what makes a 93 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 2: killer tick, and in his case, there's two things. First 94 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:15,040 Speaker 2: of all, he committed that second murder five days to 95 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 2: the date, on the same date, as you know, right, 96 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:20,839 Speaker 2: a lot of people don't realize that. You know, we're 97 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:22,599 Speaker 2: in the crime world. We understand, we notice it, but 98 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:24,720 Speaker 2: people don't realize, Oh, really they were the same date. Yeah, 99 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:26,440 Speaker 2: they were the same day. What is he trying to 100 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 2: signal there? He's trying to tell you I got away 101 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:30,839 Speaker 2: with it here, I am on the same date. I 102 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 2: want to get away with it again. And then the 103 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:35,880 Speaker 2: other thing, too, is I think he's so desperate for 104 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 2: at tension. Now that he has given this horrendous confession, 105 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:42,040 Speaker 2: we're all talking about him again. 106 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:45,120 Speaker 1: And you know, he gave great details on Stephanie Floor 107 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 1: as his murder. Once he was called he wanted to 108 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 1: tell these details. So to me, he's either doing it 109 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:55,479 Speaker 1: because he has some kind of gratification from it, or 110 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 1: he's doing it because he knows he's going to go 111 00:05:57,279 --> 00:05:58,840 Speaker 1: to prison and he want some street grid. 112 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 2: I think it's the first I think he has. He 113 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 2: gets gratification from it, I truly do. I mean, killing 114 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:08,920 Speaker 2: once out of passion is one thing. Killing twice you're 115 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:12,560 Speaker 2: you're a serial killer, that's it. I mean he would 116 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 2: kill again. He would kill again. 117 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:16,479 Speaker 1: I'm sure of it, you know, one hundred percent, so 118 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:17,360 Speaker 1: ondred percent. 119 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 2: He enjoyed it, and he enjoyed it, and he enjoyed 120 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:23,159 Speaker 2: the tease, and he enjoyed all of it, and he 121 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:27,240 Speaker 2: enjoyed being able to discuss people with the details, the 122 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 2: gritty nitty, horrifying details. 123 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:31,920 Speaker 1: I agree, and I think twenty forty three we need 124 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:35,440 Speaker 1: to be on alert because he will kill again. Yeah, 125 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 1: yes he will. 126 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 2: God knows. Anyway, by that's time, I won't be here. 127 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:49,040 Speaker 1: Let's talk about your book. So here's the deal. You 128 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 1: have written a book and it's an in depth, twisted 129 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:59,280 Speaker 1: case over a great period of time. And I said 130 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:03,120 Speaker 1: to you that you have written a beautiful book. And 131 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:07,359 Speaker 1: even though it's about murder and you know, horrible things, 132 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 1: it can be beautiful in the way that you write 133 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 1: it in the way that you describe things. And I 134 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 1: just want to start the way you start the book, 135 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:20,560 Speaker 1: and the book is Levi's eyes, and I'm quoting. The 136 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 1: guy was all over the map. He was like a 137 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:29,440 Speaker 1: flowing river running into tributaries, into countless streams and creeks. 138 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 1: Now that's just beautiful aphrodite, and it gives you this 139 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:42,239 Speaker 1: undeniable vision of, Yes, this person is telling you things. 140 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 1: He's telling you what happened, but he's all over the place, 141 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 1: and he's down this creek, and he's down this river, 142 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 1: and he's going in different directions. Immediately you had me. 143 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you know I had certainly. I think I 144 00:07:56,800 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 2: raised my bar for myself with this book. I really 145 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:03,120 Speaker 2: went for something more like a novel than I'd ever 146 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:06,440 Speaker 2: had before. Even that I'm using the real facts, and 147 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:08,480 Speaker 2: that's hard to do because you know, you walk a 148 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 2: fine line between you got to get there. You have 149 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 2: I have interviews with the people, the real people, the 150 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 2: police reports, the court transcripts, I was at the trial, 151 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 2: et cetera, et cetera. So you're dealing with real documents, 152 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 2: three thousand pages of them in this case, and you know, 153 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 2: and photos and newscripts and this and that, and then 154 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 2: on top of it, I want to make it so 155 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 2: that you're living this story, you're actually in the story. 156 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:36,079 Speaker 2: And in order to do that, I really have stretch 157 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:40,440 Speaker 2: myself as a writer. It truly did Geryl, It was there. 158 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 2: There were a lot of growing pains that went on 159 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 2: with this one. I got to tell. 160 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 1: You your process, the way you investigate a case. How do 161 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:51,960 Speaker 1: you start? What do you look for? Do you wait 162 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:54,199 Speaker 1: for a case to grab you, do you wait for 163 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 1: a twist that you can't walk away from? How do 164 00:08:57,679 --> 00:08:58,200 Speaker 1: you do it? 165 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 2: First of all, Okay, so the Lawland serial killer, Yogo 166 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:06,200 Speaker 2: Beach killer lives about fifteen minutes from where I am 167 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:10,200 Speaker 2: right now, and I spend time up here in New York, 168 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 2: and I'm here now, and I was asked by one 169 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:17,040 Speaker 2: of the radio stations, people here, you go over there 170 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:19,640 Speaker 2: and the DA wants to talk to media, you know, 171 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 2: who wants a book, blah blah blah someone over there. 172 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 2: And I took some did some man on the street 173 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 2: interviews with neighbors and it was horrifying. But at the 174 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 2: end of the day, I can't do that book. That 175 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:33,960 Speaker 2: is not there's no book there. Why Because who is 176 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:35,839 Speaker 2: the book going to be about. The only person of 177 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:38,440 Speaker 2: interest to me would be his wife and how she 178 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:40,960 Speaker 2: did or did not know or figured it out later. 179 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:44,400 Speaker 2: And actually, this is why the book I've written now 180 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 2: Levi's Eyes is so significant, is because for the first 181 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:53,320 Speaker 2: time ever, I have the wife, the second wife, who 182 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 2: lived the inside of this not knowing she was married 183 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:58,600 Speaker 2: to a killer and ultimately figuring me out. Not only 184 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:02,320 Speaker 2: did he kill her steps Levi his son, but also 185 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:05,200 Speaker 2: he had a life insurance policy out on his grandchildren, 186 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:08,720 Speaker 2: on her that someone was going to be next. I 187 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 2: mean thinking that and understand. So if you were in 188 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:16,200 Speaker 2: the Yoga Beach serial killer's house and you had the 189 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 2: opportunity to get into the wife's head and the kids' heads, 190 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:23,800 Speaker 2: you know, then you have a story. But otherwise it's 191 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 2: just gratifying then ego of a monster. I don't want 192 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:30,200 Speaker 2: to do that. That's my last thing I want to 193 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:33,560 Speaker 2: do in life, so that that wouldn't be a project 194 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:36,960 Speaker 2: for me. But here, you know two things, Cheryl one 195 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:40,720 Speaker 2: is I had covered this story for my show True 196 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:45,360 Speaker 2: Crime on ID in twenty fourteen, so next year, every 197 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:48,720 Speaker 2: ten years ago. It was right after he had confessed 198 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:52,480 Speaker 2: to killing his son. He took copta a second degree 199 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 2: murdered plea, and I did this story. I was up 200 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 2: in the Pringer Lakes area, up state New York and 201 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:04,720 Speaker 2: we filmed it. And Carl had written to me back 202 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:06,760 Speaker 2: then the killer, you know, I want to talk to you. 203 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:08,720 Speaker 2: And I was in the midst of show after show 204 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 2: after show. What was I couldn't talk to him? You know, 205 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 2: I love filming. It just didn't work out that way. 206 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:17,240 Speaker 2: But in any event, I knew one thing, and that 207 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:20,439 Speaker 2: was his first wife had died in a fire, tragic 208 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 2: fire back in nineteen ninety one in California, And there 209 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:27,679 Speaker 2: was no doubt in my mind that this was now 210 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:32,320 Speaker 2: going to be re examined. And in fact it had 211 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:34,920 Speaker 2: been ruled an accident. It was never cold case. It 212 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 2: was reopened after he confessed to murdering his son. And 213 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 2: then we're all waiting for that trial. Where's the trial 214 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:46,600 Speaker 2: in California? What's happening? Years are going by. He doesn't 215 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:50,240 Speaker 2: get extradited until twenty sixteen. He's a serving prison for 216 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:53,080 Speaker 2: the murder of his son. They finally get enough to 217 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:56,360 Speaker 2: extradize into California and they're going to try him for 218 00:11:56,480 --> 00:12:00,640 Speaker 2: murder of his first wife, Christina Carlson in California, and 219 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:04,320 Speaker 2: then that drags on until the summer of twenty nineteen. 220 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 2: That's when I'm ready to go there because at that 221 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:09,080 Speaker 2: point I'm talking to carl cross It on the phone 222 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 2: and I have a relationship quote unquote with this monster, 223 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:14,839 Speaker 2: things that I like him, which of course got to 224 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:16,720 Speaker 2: make them think that, you know, I understand you, Yeah, 225 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:22,760 Speaker 2: I understand you anyway. So bottom line, that trial continued 226 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 2: to get postponed until January of twenty twenty. But when 227 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:30,800 Speaker 2: that happened, I was there and I was ready, and man, 228 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:34,320 Speaker 2: oh man, what a dramatic scene that was to be 229 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:38,160 Speaker 2: in a place called San and DRez, California and watch 230 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:41,599 Speaker 2: people testify about something that had happened almost thirty years. 231 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:49,440 Speaker 1: Before, something that's so critical for people to understand about 232 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:53,719 Speaker 1: cold cases. You literally work them backwards, so you are 233 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:56,400 Speaker 1: making a relationship with this person so that you can 234 00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:59,160 Speaker 1: get entail, you can get information, you can get quote, 235 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:01,960 Speaker 1: you can understand the story, and then you've got to 236 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 1: go backwards in tom and understand, Okay, what was going 237 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 1: on thirty years ago. So one thing that they did 238 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:13,280 Speaker 1: that I found fascinating in your book is when the investigators, 239 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:17,559 Speaker 1: the arson investigators wanted to make sure that his account 240 00:13:17,679 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 1: was accurate, so they interview the six year old daughter, Aaron. 241 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:26,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's interesting. They did interview her, and 242 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 2: they couldn't get a full statement out of her. She 243 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 2: was so young. And then what did Carl do. Now, 244 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:35,440 Speaker 2: this man already had a plan. This was not an accident, 245 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:40,480 Speaker 2: This was a planned arson. So he had taken life 246 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:43,679 Speaker 2: insurance out on his wife, you know, weeks prior, in 247 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:45,760 Speaker 2: the amount of two hundred thousand dollars. I think about that, 248 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:49,040 Speaker 2: and this was the winter of nineteen nineties. He killed 249 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 2: her on New Year's Day, nineteen ninety one. Think about 250 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:55,559 Speaker 2: two hundred thousand dollars in nineteen ninety You could triple 251 00:13:55,640 --> 00:14:00,199 Speaker 2: that to today's rates, right, it would be equivalent to a 252 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:04,560 Speaker 2: probably a million dollars today. Okay, that is a lot 253 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 2: of for him. That is a lottery money for him. 254 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:10,000 Speaker 2: That's who his wife was to him, a lottery ticket. 255 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:14,160 Speaker 2: It's frightening and horrifying that, you know, this is how 256 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:17,240 Speaker 2: this man thought. But there's more to that story. 257 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:22,120 Speaker 1: You know that always more, There's always more. But you 258 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:25,240 Speaker 1: you do such a great job you include the autopsy results, 259 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 1: so you're very clear there was heavy soot on the 260 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 1: upper torso, back and posterior legs. Only the right side 261 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 1: of her face had been burned. The trachea and larynx 262 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:40,520 Speaker 1: showed thermal damage. So the cause of death was simple 263 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 1: affhyxiation caused by inhaling smoke. But then you make it 264 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 1: clear that you know the manner was undetermined. But then 265 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 1: you go on and you say, look, y'all, the bathroom 266 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 1: window had been broken. He said he made a quick repair, 267 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 1: a quick re pair that included seventeen nails. I thought 268 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:08,200 Speaker 1: that was so brilliant because you're painting a picture without 269 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:12,000 Speaker 1: saying a word more. You are not saying, hey, freaking 270 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 1: killed his wife. But when you read seventeen nails, we've 271 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 1: all watched somebody do a quick repair, like, oh, the 272 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 1: window is busted, so I'm going to put this over 273 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 1: it to protect animals from getting in or the cold. 274 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 1: It don't take seventeen nails to do that. 275 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 2: No. In fact, you know, one of the things I 276 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:33,280 Speaker 2: point out in the book, Carl met Christina, his first wife, 277 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 2: when he worked on the military base in North Dakota. 278 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 2: So here he is grand Fork's Naval Air Force Base 279 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:49,280 Speaker 2: rother and he's he's a person who get this. He's 280 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:54,200 Speaker 2: in the nuclear warheads program. He's charged with driving around 281 00:15:54,320 --> 00:16:00,040 Speaker 2: nuclear warheads to stealth locations in the wilds of Wyoming 282 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 2: in North Dakota, Okay, uh missile locations underground miss So 283 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:10,920 Speaker 2: here you have this man he's He meets Christina, she's 284 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 2: married to somebody else. She went there with her first husband, 285 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 2: who was also in the Air Force. She he swooped 286 00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 2: her off her feet. He stole her basically from the 287 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:25,080 Speaker 2: first husband. But aside from that, and same thing with Cindy, 288 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 2: the second wife. She was also just out of a 289 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:29,760 Speaker 2: divorce and he was yanking her away from that husband. 290 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:33,240 Speaker 2: And he liked that idea. But he presented himself as this, 291 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:38,000 Speaker 2: you know, superhero. You know he's driving nuclear warheads around, 292 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:40,960 Speaker 2: he's involved with the missile program. He's going to be 293 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 2: the you know, biggest dealer ever was in the Air Force. 294 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 2: I mean he really thought that about himself. But a 295 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 2: huge ego. But when you talk about the nails on 296 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:52,760 Speaker 2: the window, what's interesting is there's a picture in the book. 297 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 2: You wouldn't understand it until you read the book, but 298 00:16:55,760 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 2: there's a photo of just icicles hanging and you can't 299 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 2: tell what it is, but I write in the caption 300 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 2: these this is a photo of the icicles that are 301 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:10,520 Speaker 2: hanging from the window of Christina's place in North Carol, 302 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:15,640 Speaker 2: North Dakota. Rather and she wrote, under look at our icicles. 303 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 2: Why is that important? Well, her first husband, Alan Teets, 304 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:22,439 Speaker 2: gave me that photo. And in that photo, what you 305 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 2: realize is that window is covered with a plastic, a 306 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:30,920 Speaker 2: clear film plastic. Because in the zero and minus thirty 307 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:34,960 Speaker 2: degrees of North Dakota in the winter, that's how people 308 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:37,800 Speaker 2: covered their windows to keep cold out. They didn't use 309 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:41,719 Speaker 2: a plywood. They didn't have a piece of plywood and 310 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:47,320 Speaker 2: staple it on there with seventeen nails. No. No, So 311 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 2: so the whole thing, you know, when you think about that, 312 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:56,080 Speaker 2: you know the whole thing. How she didn't see through 313 00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 2: what he was trying to do to her is another matter, 314 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:03,120 Speaker 2: you know, because Cindy, the second wife, also didn't see 315 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:05,840 Speaker 2: through what he was doing to her. He's a shape shifter. 316 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:09,840 Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about some of those things. They had 317 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:13,920 Speaker 1: four smoke detectors and he had taken the batteries out, 318 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:16,160 Speaker 1: he had taken them down and taken the batteries out 319 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 1: of all four. 320 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:19,119 Speaker 2: Exactly, And of course he said, no, no, no, I 321 00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:19,639 Speaker 2: didn't do that. 322 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:22,840 Speaker 1: That must have fallen on it yet, right, yeah, all 323 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:26,360 Speaker 1: four fell and all four batteries popped out absolutely. And 324 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:28,639 Speaker 1: then there's the kerosene. And this might be one of 325 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:32,280 Speaker 1: my favorites that I've ever heard. So he buys this 326 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 1: two gallon or five gallons, sorry, a five gallon jug 327 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:41,280 Speaker 1: of carosene, and he blames her for bringing it in 328 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:44,439 Speaker 1: the house. He says, she did it. And then when 329 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 1: they say, well, why would she bring a five gallon 330 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:50,879 Speaker 1: jug of carosene into your house, he says, well, we 331 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:53,920 Speaker 1: would sometimes or I would sometimes use it and put 332 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 1: water in the empty kerosene can so we would have 333 00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 1: extra water. And then they went, you put water in 334 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:04,800 Speaker 1: a carothene can? He said, oh, yeah, just to pour, 335 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:06,879 Speaker 1: you know, in the toilet to flush it if the 336 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 1: pipes were frozen. I mean your reaction should have been 337 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:17,159 Speaker 1: their reaction, well, leave me. 338 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:20,080 Speaker 2: They couldn't laugh in his face. But you knew damn 339 00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:22,600 Speaker 2: well when they were asking that, when they were seriously 340 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:26,679 Speaker 2: investigating in Arson, and they're questioning this man, Okay, for 341 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 2: them to say. In other words, he and just to 342 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:32,600 Speaker 2: get a little more of a tweak here, this is 343 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:37,159 Speaker 2: how convoluted it was, Cheryl. He says that five gallon 344 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 2: kerosene jug I brought up from the shop and we 345 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:45,359 Speaker 2: used it and filled it with water because our pipes 346 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:49,720 Speaker 2: were frozen. And so that's why Christina brought it into 347 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 2: the house, because she was filling up our toilets and 348 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:57,960 Speaker 2: showers with water. So then the investigator says, well, well, 349 00:19:58,000 --> 00:19:59,960 Speaker 2: then why is there kerosene back in joy? Oh, well, 350 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:02,639 Speaker 2: because then we put kerosene back into the jug that 351 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:05,919 Speaker 2: we had the water and what so, in other words, 352 00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 2: kerosene turns to water, turns to kerosene again, and it's 353 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:12,560 Speaker 2: all Christ's fault because she didn't understand what she was 354 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:16,120 Speaker 2: bringing into the house, because you know, she's an. 355 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:22,200 Speaker 1: Idiot, absolutely one. And then five gallons of kerothene gets spilled, 356 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 1: and you know, the victim, again being an idiot, takes 357 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:34,840 Speaker 1: the brain new Christmas clothes and that's what that's what. 358 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 2: She's a terrifying and horrifying story. But these are things 359 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:42,720 Speaker 2: about this particular mind of the psychopath that really make 360 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 2: your you just your headspins it's so preposterous what he's saying, 361 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:51,040 Speaker 2: and he's wants you to believe it. And you know, 362 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:53,920 Speaker 2: I interviewed him for two years and I have those 363 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:56,159 Speaker 2: recorded phone calls, and let me tell you, when you 364 00:20:56,200 --> 00:21:00,200 Speaker 2: hear him say it, you're just like, you know, I'm saying, yeah, 365 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:02,720 Speaker 2: talking to is going to think is this really coming 366 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 2: out of this man's mouth? Like is he kidding? Is 367 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 2: he not? Yeah? He says, oh, you know, we used to. 368 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:10,320 Speaker 2: And of course I questioned him on and again and 369 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:12,720 Speaker 2: again to get him, you know, try to round him 370 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:15,840 Speaker 2: in a corner. And I said, well, so you used 371 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:18,880 Speaker 2: Christmas clothes to well, yeah, that was the closest thing 372 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:22,960 Speaker 2: there was. So Christina, who made her own clothes for 373 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:26,520 Speaker 2: her kids from handmade patterns, right, is going to take 374 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 2: that clothes that she spent god knows how long creating 375 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 2: and she's just going to use that to soak up 376 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:33,960 Speaker 2: some pirosene in the hallway real quick. 377 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:37,440 Speaker 1: That's what That's what we would all do, absolutely. 378 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:41,200 Speaker 2: Right. I can't wait to use my next Christmas gifts 379 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:44,080 Speaker 2: so that I can you know, mop the floor with them. 380 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:50,760 Speaker 1: That's right. How does Avrodoty Jones clean her house with 381 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:54,320 Speaker 1: brand new clothes and it's just acidine, and. 382 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:58,159 Speaker 2: It's so crazy. And the thing is, he wants you 383 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:02,080 Speaker 2: to believe him. He wants you to believe that. Now. 384 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:05,920 Speaker 2: When six year old Aaron was interviewed by the fire investigators, 385 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,000 Speaker 2: she told them she didn't know there was any kerosene 386 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 2: in the floor. The new kids, they don't know what 387 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:13,399 Speaker 2: they're smelling and not smelling. But she did say there 388 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:15,800 Speaker 2: were a pile of clothes in the floor, sheets and 389 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:18,360 Speaker 2: towels and clothes and whatever they use to play leap 390 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 2: frog over. So what that tells me is that did happen. 391 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:25,960 Speaker 2: A spill happened, and he deliberately made that happen, so 392 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 2: there'd be multiple accounts of kerosene all over the place, right, 393 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:36,280 Speaker 2: and then the kids, clearly he did put some clothes down, 394 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:41,159 Speaker 2: not new clothes, probably old rags, and a six year 395 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:43,200 Speaker 2: old wasn't sure what it was you were jumping over. 396 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:46,920 Speaker 2: What was blankets or something, you know? And then of course, 397 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:49,880 Speaker 2: what did Carl do. He takes those kids and leaves 398 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:54,760 Speaker 2: for New York, flies away from where they lived in Murphy's, California, 399 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:58,679 Speaker 2: the day after Christina's memorial, so within four days of 400 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:01,760 Speaker 2: her death, he's grabbed just three kids and moved to 401 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:05,679 Speaker 2: New York, flown away, and he didn't even let his 402 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:08,800 Speaker 2: kids go to their mother's memorial service. 403 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 1: Well, because they might talk to somebody, they might say something, 404 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:14,560 Speaker 1: so you can't let that happen. Then you got to 405 00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:16,440 Speaker 1: get them out of there as fast as you can. 406 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:20,239 Speaker 1: But my favorite thing after that is the picture that 407 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:24,320 Speaker 1: you paint of him calling the insurance agent. And to 408 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:27,280 Speaker 1: your point, he just has no sense of what he's 409 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:31,040 Speaker 1: really telling people. So now he's saying, man, I needed 410 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 1: that check to come on through because I had to 411 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:37,160 Speaker 1: spend six thousand dollars on plane tickets. Then there's the funeral, 412 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:41,160 Speaker 1: and now I'm you know, it's a bitch. Quote It's 413 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:45,160 Speaker 1: a bitch raising three kids by myself, first of all. 414 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:48,400 Speaker 2: So he didn't pay for the plane tickets. We discovered 415 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:50,960 Speaker 2: that later his brother played pay food plane tickets and 416 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:54,439 Speaker 2: his brother might Carlson testify to that, And it's in 417 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:59,680 Speaker 2: evidence the credit card receipt and from the travel agency 418 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 2: out here that those were all paid by his brother 419 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:05,880 Speaker 2: number one number and never paid back by carl number two. 420 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:11,679 Speaker 2: He didn't, he did. There was no funeral expenses to 421 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:14,080 Speaker 2: pay for he didn't have a funeral for her. How 422 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:18,120 Speaker 2: about that he didn't have a funeral for her. There 423 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:21,080 Speaker 2: was a memorial service, not a real funeral. She was 424 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:24,679 Speaker 2: later buried. She he didn't even put a tombstone on 425 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:25,160 Speaker 2: her grave. 426 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:28,840 Speaker 1: So let's talk about the insurance policy that was attached 427 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:29,480 Speaker 1: to the wife. 428 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:33,480 Speaker 2: He went into the insurance agent in California and said, 429 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,760 Speaker 2: I'm in here. I would let to inquire about insurance 430 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:38,919 Speaker 2: on my wife. And the inturn day said, well, what 431 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 2: about what a minute, you have insurance on you? 432 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:41,840 Speaker 1: Yeah? 433 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:44,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, I do, I do. No, he did not. He's lying. 434 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:46,840 Speaker 2: And the insurance day says, well, you know, you can't 435 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:49,040 Speaker 2: take insurance out on your wife unless she's here with you, 436 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:50,720 Speaker 2: and you have to prove to me that you've got 437 00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 2: insurance on yourself. So of course Carl didn't have insurance 438 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:57,320 Speaker 2: on himself. He was lying, But he brought Christina in 439 00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 2: there and somehow convinced her to take you out a 440 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:04,399 Speaker 2: two hundred thousand dollars insurance policy on herself on and 441 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:08,520 Speaker 2: he took one out on himself. And the thing is, 442 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 2: I don't know why, why didn't the insurance agent have 443 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:17,760 Speaker 2: a light bulb go off that he later testified, in 444 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:19,520 Speaker 2: the forty years that he had been in the business, 445 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 2: he never had someone walk in off the street and 446 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:26,320 Speaker 2: solicit getting life insurance for themselves or anyone else. So 447 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:28,679 Speaker 2: that's something that people always have to be sold on. 448 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:31,160 Speaker 2: You go and you call about car insurance, you call 449 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 2: about house insurance. You don't call that. Can I get 450 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:36,639 Speaker 2: some life insurance? That's what I need, you know? 451 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:41,359 Speaker 1: And averdity he wanted insurance own the children. Most people 452 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:44,720 Speaker 1: would never be able to utter those words that I 453 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:47,960 Speaker 1: want insurance own my children in case they die. 454 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:51,159 Speaker 2: That's what really starts to make you wonder what was 455 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:53,320 Speaker 2: it he was going to do there that day in 456 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,480 Speaker 2: that fire in California. He got Levi out or Levi 457 00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:00,879 Speaker 2: got out, Which is it? What did Levi d What 458 00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:05,240 Speaker 2: did Levi know? Why did Levi get killed? Seventeen years 459 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:08,040 Speaker 2: later when he was twenty three years old. All that 460 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:10,400 Speaker 2: is a thread that comes together. 461 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:19,520 Speaker 1: Slowly. Investigators start to see some things and some things 462 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:22,800 Speaker 1: come out like Karl was abusive maybe toward Chris by 463 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:24,720 Speaker 1: pushing her out of her chair and things like that. 464 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:29,399 Speaker 1: You know, you start chapter fifteen with something that every 465 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:33,639 Speaker 1: single person in criminal justice would attest to immediately and 466 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:36,840 Speaker 1: you say, and I quote, whether we like to admit 467 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:41,119 Speaker 1: it or not, everybody lies. And you go on to 468 00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:46,119 Speaker 1: say that with Carl, his lies become truth and the 469 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:52,120 Speaker 1: truth becomes lies, and he takes pleasure in confusing everybody. 470 00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:55,840 Speaker 2: That is so true. You know this is and you 471 00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:59,400 Speaker 2: find this. You dealt with killers, you know so many years, 472 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 2: the worst of a sociopath that you're dealing with, and 473 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:07,439 Speaker 2: you know, I say, look at van der Schlut as 474 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:12,720 Speaker 2: an example. These are next level sociopaths. Okay, this is 475 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:16,760 Speaker 2: you know, going into uh, you know, some kind of 476 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:20,440 Speaker 2: stratosphy or sociopaths. I suppose in any event, they are 477 00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 2: all about riddles, confusing, mixing, matching. Everything coming out of 478 00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:28,359 Speaker 2: their mouth is a lie. That's how you know that. 479 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,399 Speaker 2: When they're talking, you know that. That's how you know 480 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,320 Speaker 2: they're lying, because their lips are moving, like Judge Judy says, 481 00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 2: if the lips are moving, it's a lie. This guy. 482 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:42,520 Speaker 2: And that's the thing. He'll tell you a story and 483 00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:45,040 Speaker 2: it comes out throughout the book. I'm sure you've seen 484 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:47,920 Speaker 2: it where you start telling one thing and then you realize, wait, 485 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:50,760 Speaker 2: he said something different about this whole scenario. You know, 486 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:55,000 Speaker 2: the months before, the year before, he just changes the story, 487 00:27:55,080 --> 00:28:03,440 Speaker 2: like what do you It's unbelievable. He really pathological, sociopath, liar. 488 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,919 Speaker 1: And sometimes he's just grotesque with it because when the 489 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:09,880 Speaker 1: arts and investigator says, hey, you know your wife died 490 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,280 Speaker 1: and you made a little money, he says, wait a minute, 491 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:16,520 Speaker 1: and I quote, I mean, let's face it, I had 492 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:19,680 Speaker 1: one hundred thousand dollars on all three of them. If 493 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,280 Speaker 1: I was going to do it, I'd have to let 494 00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:26,119 Speaker 1: them go too, because then I wouldn't have to be 495 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:26,720 Speaker 1: a mommy. 496 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:31,879 Speaker 2: Unbelievable. So the plan was, he says, Okay, he saved 497 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:33,640 Speaker 2: his three kids, so this way he can get away 498 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:36,760 Speaker 2: with murdering his wife, right, that's one way to look 499 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 2: at it. Or was the plan? He was going to 500 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 2: kill everybody to begin with. 501 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:42,920 Speaker 1: And you know they go on to say, and you 502 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 1: already mentioned this to what really happened with Levi because 503 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 1: when they asked him, did any of the kids see 504 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 1: you at the broken window? He says, I think Levi did. So, 505 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:57,160 Speaker 1: in other words, he knows Levi was somewhere different than 506 00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 1: the girls. He had more of an opportunity to see 507 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:03,720 Speaker 1: what all transpired before the girls ever got out exactly. 508 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:06,680 Speaker 2: And you know, there's there are other things that if 509 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:08,280 Speaker 2: you've read the whole book, you know there are other 510 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:11,360 Speaker 2: weird things in the relationship between Levi and. 511 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:14,840 Speaker 1: His father, very twisted. And I think that's when even 512 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:18,680 Speaker 1: the counselor starts saying, Levi won't talk to me, he 513 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 1: won't talk about his mama at all. And then later 514 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:25,600 Speaker 1: he becomes you know, that kid that anybody can see 515 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 1: is struggling. He's smoking pot, he's stealing money, he's now goth. 516 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 1: I mean, he's got a lot of issues that he's 517 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:34,400 Speaker 1: not even trying to hide that he has them. 518 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:37,719 Speaker 2: And of course, you know, all of this is fodder 519 00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:40,640 Speaker 2: for Carl to say, you know this, this kid is 520 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:44,880 Speaker 2: a loser, he's a waste of a life. And Carl 521 00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:50,080 Speaker 2: is very good at that of demeaning people and making 522 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:55,440 Speaker 2: people feel like they're worthless. And it's just comes in 523 00:29:55,520 --> 00:30:00,480 Speaker 2: the package with his inability to show any of oceans 524 00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:05,160 Speaker 2: at all, or have any have any real sense of 525 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:09,800 Speaker 2: value of a human life. He just had none human life, 526 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:13,320 Speaker 2: animal life, no life means anything to him. 527 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:15,560 Speaker 1: And you know, as I was reading the book, there 528 00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:17,720 Speaker 1: was one part where I just wanted to text you 529 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:21,040 Speaker 1: and say stop it. Why are you making me go 530 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:24,240 Speaker 1: through this, because I was already locked in on Carl 531 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,360 Speaker 1: right and then you're like, hey, y'all, by the way, 532 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:31,560 Speaker 1: he had a car fire before the house fire. Now 533 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:34,920 Speaker 1: y'all listen to me. I almost had a text her 534 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:38,800 Speaker 1: and tell her I'm not happy with you right this minute, Aphrodite, 535 00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 1: because you're telling me that Carl now is telling a 536 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:46,520 Speaker 1: whole different fire department. Hey, I just drove my car 537 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:49,240 Speaker 1: home and went in the house, and then my wife 538 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,480 Speaker 1: at the time realized the car just burst into flames 539 00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:53,600 Speaker 1: right there in our driveway. 540 00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:57,480 Speaker 2: After I took the baby seats and carriages. 541 00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:58,840 Speaker 1: Out of her Yeah, because you know those are expensive 542 00:30:58,880 --> 00:30:59,520 Speaker 1: to replace. 543 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:03,920 Speaker 2: After he removed all the baby seats and everything else 544 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:07,280 Speaker 2: out of the car, it just it combusted. It's like 545 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:10,720 Speaker 2: a natural disaster just occurred in his driveway. 546 00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:14,520 Speaker 1: And thank god he had the foresight to say, you know, 547 00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:18,000 Speaker 1: I'm gonna get a safe that protects paperwork, but I'm 548 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:20,280 Speaker 1: gonna keep it in the garage. And then when that 549 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:23,080 Speaker 1: artisan investigator asked me, why is this safe in the 550 00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:27,400 Speaker 1: garage not in the house, Because if your house burns down, 551 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:35,480 Speaker 1: your garage doesn't like, I'm gonna throw this book out 552 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:38,720 Speaker 1: the window. I was like, I can't read anymore. I'm 553 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:42,320 Speaker 1: getting irritated. But then I couldn't stop because I knew 554 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:46,520 Speaker 1: what inevitably was coming, and I thought, oh my gosh. 555 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:47,840 Speaker 1: And then it just goes on. 556 00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:51,640 Speaker 2: You can't believe what comes out of this guy's mouth, right. 557 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:54,800 Speaker 1: And every time he gets insurance money, every time he 558 00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:57,880 Speaker 1: gets a check, here's a check for your car, here's 559 00:31:57,920 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 1: a check for your house, here's a check for your 560 00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 1: and I mean, you're just like, okay. So then he 561 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:05,320 Speaker 1: gets this big pile of money and he buys a 562 00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:09,280 Speaker 1: big old farm with horses and a barn and all 563 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:12,440 Speaker 1: kind of acreage. And you're like, he is now succeeding 564 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:16,360 Speaker 1: because their mama was killed and he's got a new 565 00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:20,480 Speaker 1: wife that he moves in there. And he's asked one time, 566 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:22,120 Speaker 1: and I want you all to listen to this quote. 567 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:27,400 Speaker 1: He is asked, bye, I believe his sister in law 568 00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:32,960 Speaker 1: something about rats, and he goes, hey, do you know 569 00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:36,800 Speaker 1: how an arsonist gets away with a fire. You douse 570 00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:41,520 Speaker 1: a rat in kerosene, lighted and it always runs back 571 00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:42,200 Speaker 1: to its home. 572 00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:45,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, which its home is a pile of hay. So 573 00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:49,040 Speaker 2: it's just gonna light up that barnfire. And he's letting 574 00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:52,960 Speaker 2: that sister know, yeah, I killed your sister. It gives 575 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:56,080 Speaker 2: me chills to really that makes my hair stand on 576 00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:59,080 Speaker 2: said when I hear you say it, because I can 577 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:04,160 Speaker 2: feel it, you know, I can feel it. What how 578 00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:09,640 Speaker 2: He really just was enjoying those moments where all of 579 00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:11,920 Speaker 2: a sudden it wasn't preposterous. All of a sudden, he 580 00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:14,640 Speaker 2: gets real, you know KLi Vandersloute, all of a sudden, 581 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:17,680 Speaker 2: oh album, Well, let me tell you this is this 582 00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:19,880 Speaker 2: is you know, here's here's a good clue for you. Here. 583 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:26,120 Speaker 2: That's that's that's the sickness of a of a psychopath. 584 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:29,240 Speaker 2: You know, they want It's like the BTK. I was 585 00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:32,720 Speaker 2: at Dennis Raiders sentencing. He wanted to take credit for 586 00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:35,400 Speaker 2: it all. After thirty years of torturing everybody in the 587 00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:38,520 Speaker 2: city of Chita, after thirty years of being undercover, of 588 00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:40,920 Speaker 2: being in hiding, coming in and out of hiding, he 589 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:43,640 Speaker 2: at the end of it all wanted to take credit. 590 00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:46,560 Speaker 2: And he stood up there, Cheryl in that courtroom, and 591 00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:51,000 Speaker 2: I was there, proud as he could be, referring to 592 00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:56,400 Speaker 2: himself as Dennis Raider in the third person, and I mean, really. 593 00:33:56,320 --> 00:34:00,239 Speaker 1: I mean you you have literally covered everything and you 594 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:02,800 Speaker 1: didn't do it from a distance. You've been right up 595 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:05,800 Speaker 1: close and personal the whole time. And that's why when 596 00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:07,560 Speaker 1: I got to this part of the book, because I 597 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:10,480 Speaker 1: kept thinking, you know what, I think, I know what's 598 00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:13,360 Speaker 1: coming with the sun, but we're not there yet. And 599 00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:16,919 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, you say, it's two am, November third, 600 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:20,120 Speaker 1: two thousand and two, and all of a sudden, Karl 601 00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:23,560 Speaker 1: is screaming, call now one one. The barn is on fire. 602 00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:27,200 Speaker 1: And I'm like, I am so done right this minute. 603 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:32,319 Speaker 1: This man cannot have set another fire. And just like 604 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:35,359 Speaker 1: the car, you go on to say, there were these 605 00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:40,040 Speaker 1: prize you know, oh what are they called, everybody, the 606 00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:43,839 Speaker 1: things for the horses, tack tack. Yes, and he had 607 00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:48,760 Speaker 1: taken all these prize possessions, these you know, irreplaceable tacks 608 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:52,359 Speaker 1: that were custom done. Oh, he had removed them from 609 00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:52,800 Speaker 1: the barn. 610 00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:57,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, the saddles, the boots, the horse, all of the gear, 611 00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:01,040 Speaker 2: all the tack was all removed. Yeah. Somehow that didn't 612 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:04,520 Speaker 2: get destroyed. That was in a different place. Now, the 613 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:07,279 Speaker 2: creepiest part of that, and I don't like to give 614 00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:08,759 Speaker 2: away so much of the book, but I will say 615 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:12,839 Speaker 2: this because it does make my head spin. I want 616 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:17,000 Speaker 2: to blow off of its head. Is that at one 617 00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:19,880 Speaker 2: point his younger son, Alex, who he had with sending 618 00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:22,480 Speaker 2: his second wife, is standing in the driveway waiting for 619 00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:24,640 Speaker 2: the school bus or they're playing hoops whatever it is, 620 00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:27,920 Speaker 2: in the front of the house in New York. And 621 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:32,680 Speaker 2: now the horse, the horse fire had happened. Alex the 622 00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:36,279 Speaker 2: child loved the horse that died. Ginger was her name, 623 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:39,799 Speaker 2: and he loved that horse and the other horses too, 624 00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:44,040 Speaker 2: but especially Ginger. And now he's the fire's over. The 625 00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:47,279 Speaker 2: horses died. Bat it ah, it's it's he got away 626 00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:49,800 Speaker 2: with it. It was considered an accident. He's playing ball 627 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:52,440 Speaker 2: and hoops in the driveway waiting for the bus with 628 00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:58,160 Speaker 2: his kid, and Alex finds the hoof of Ginger in 629 00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:00,600 Speaker 2: the dirt next to the driveway there in the farm. 630 00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:02,560 Speaker 2: Think about that for a minute. 631 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:04,200 Speaker 1: It's beyond twisted. 632 00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:07,120 Speaker 2: And a kid that was like he was a kid. 633 00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:09,279 Speaker 2: I was born in nineteen ninety five, so in two 634 00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:10,759 Speaker 2: thousand and two, what is he seven years old? 635 00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:14,400 Speaker 1: And that was his pet. Well for all purposes. 636 00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:17,239 Speaker 2: Yes and no, Yeah, it was Ginger was there to 637 00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:20,360 Speaker 2: be bred. Turned out that she was unable to breathe. 638 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:24,279 Speaker 2: So hence what she's not very useful anymore. Hence maybe 639 00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:26,799 Speaker 2: we should have a fire. And of course Carl up 640 00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:29,200 Speaker 2: to the insurance on the horses right before the fire. 641 00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:31,600 Speaker 2: I mean, it's like, how do these people in these 642 00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:34,640 Speaker 2: insurance agencies not know this? But they did know it, 643 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:38,520 Speaker 2: but they couldn't catch them. Of course they knew it. 644 00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:41,000 Speaker 2: They were looking at the policies they're seeing. He took 645 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:43,960 Speaker 2: this policy out, he changed numbers two weeks prior, four 646 00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:47,520 Speaker 2: ex prior, three weeks prior out every one of these cases, 647 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:49,880 Speaker 2: but they couldn't pin it to him. 648 00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:53,480 Speaker 1: Now, I want to tell everybody you need to go 649 00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:58,360 Speaker 1: get Levi's eyes, because this book, as much as we 650 00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:01,640 Speaker 1: have talked about it already, it is an over. His 651 00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:06,960 Speaker 1: crimes are not over. What has all fixing a transpire 652 00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:11,160 Speaker 1: with Levi? You will not believe it. It is important to 653 00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:14,040 Speaker 1: read it. To me, It's one of those cases where 654 00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:17,200 Speaker 1: you can see what's coming down Peach Street Street and 655 00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:21,239 Speaker 1: at some point this person should have been stopped. I 656 00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:24,640 Speaker 1: think his family knew it. I think friends knew it. 657 00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:27,560 Speaker 1: I think the children knew it, and they couldn't stop 658 00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:27,960 Speaker 1: this in. 659 00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:31,319 Speaker 2: Time, exactly, no question, no question about that. There's some 660 00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:33,359 Speaker 2: blood on a lot of people's hands and this once 661 00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:35,560 Speaker 2: you get through the woll streight. 662 00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:41,719 Speaker 1: Okay, So before I let you go, let's talk a 663 00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:45,200 Speaker 1: little bit. What is one of your favorite cases? And 664 00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:46,799 Speaker 1: I know how that sounds, but you know what I 665 00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:49,680 Speaker 1: mean by it. What is one of the worst cases? 666 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:53,080 Speaker 1: What is a dream case? What is you tell us 667 00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:56,680 Speaker 1: anything you want us to know about your background and 668 00:37:56,800 --> 00:37:58,200 Speaker 1: maybe future projects. 669 00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:00,920 Speaker 2: The favorite thing I ever had in the crime world 670 00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:06,279 Speaker 2: was being with OJ Simpson in Las Vegas when he 671 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:10,600 Speaker 2: was being tried there for you know, kidnapping and et cetera. 672 00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:14,520 Speaker 2: With the gun and in the hallway outside the courtroom, 673 00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:16,799 Speaker 2: I happened to know somebody he played football with, so 674 00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:18,920 Speaker 2: I mentioned it. He made the phone call and he 675 00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:21,480 Speaker 2: got all excited and happy. Next thing, you know, it 676 00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:24,760 Speaker 2: was my girlfriend's birthday and I had OJ sing happy 677 00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:33,120 Speaker 2: birthday to her. That's a highlight right there. 678 00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:35,640 Speaker 1: That's a once in a career that's a once in 679 00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:36,239 Speaker 1: a career movie. 680 00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:38,840 Speaker 2: That yeah, that doesn't come around ever again. Now. And 681 00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:41,239 Speaker 2: in fact, when he did it. A good part about 682 00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:44,920 Speaker 2: it was when he did it. You know, so, my 683 00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:46,680 Speaker 2: girlfriend knew I was in Las Vegas. She knew I 684 00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:49,719 Speaker 2: was at that trial, and she knew that she didn't 685 00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:51,880 Speaker 2: know I was hanging out with Oja in the hallway. 686 00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:54,680 Speaker 2: But I handed the phone over. I said, somebody wants 687 00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:56,960 Speaker 2: to sing Happy Birthday to you. And he's saying it 688 00:38:57,239 --> 00:39:00,239 Speaker 2: and I'm watching, and then she asked him. I've so, 689 00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:03,400 Speaker 2: she said who is this and he said it's Oh Jay, 690 00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:07,839 Speaker 2: Like she just wanted to hear and say it. I'm 691 00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:09,880 Speaker 2: thinking myself, who do you think it? I mean, his 692 00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:13,680 Speaker 2: voice was still very recognizable. You know, you knew it 693 00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:15,719 Speaker 2: was him. But I said to her, why did you 694 00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:16,319 Speaker 2: risk him that. 695 00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:16,920 Speaker 1: You knew it? 696 00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:18,440 Speaker 2: So, I know, I just wanted him to tell me. 697 00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:26,719 Speaker 2: That's one Another thing that always stays with me is 698 00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:30,040 Speaker 2: the John MAInet. You know, I interviewed John Ramsay for 699 00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:31,840 Speaker 2: about an hour and a half. We had lunch in 700 00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:34,400 Speaker 2: Las Vegas. I was trying to convince him to do 701 00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:37,880 Speaker 2: my show. I did an episode on John Benet back 702 00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:40,720 Speaker 2: in Oh My God. This was its season three, season 703 00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:43,440 Speaker 2: two of My show, and even long time ago now 704 00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:50,080 Speaker 2: probably ten years ago, anyway, he became such an interesting 705 00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:54,320 Speaker 2: subject to me because I started to believe that Patsy 706 00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:58,520 Speaker 2: had convinced him. She found a way to make it 707 00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:03,600 Speaker 2: look like somebody was in that house. And I believe 708 00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:08,200 Speaker 2: that John Ramsey truly was unaware. And I think what 709 00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:10,880 Speaker 2: brings that full circle for me is the interview that 710 00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:13,920 Speaker 2: his son Burke did with doctor Phil mcbrau. It's if 711 00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:16,640 Speaker 2: you notice once that was done and the CBS thing 712 00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:20,399 Speaker 2: special air series pointing to the sun. You know, there's 713 00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:22,839 Speaker 2: none of that has ever eared again. Ever, you can't 714 00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:26,080 Speaker 2: find it on the internet anywhere. In my mind, I 715 00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:30,839 Speaker 2: believe that Patsy Ramsey figured out a way to keep 716 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:34,200 Speaker 2: her husband out of the loop because I don't think 717 00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:37,080 Speaker 2: she thought he could act the part. And this is 718 00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:41,080 Speaker 2: just my theory, but I really hold to it because 719 00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:43,640 Speaker 2: I spent a lot of time with this man, and 720 00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:48,880 Speaker 2: I fully believe that he does not know who killed 721 00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:53,280 Speaker 2: his kid. Now, how could that be He thinks somebody 722 00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:58,400 Speaker 2: came to the house. How could that be unless Patsy 723 00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:01,359 Speaker 2: used a mind game of him, and I believe she did. 724 00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:04,560 Speaker 1: I truly do the thing that always has bothered me 725 00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:08,280 Speaker 1: the most, Like, let's just say I have a little 726 00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:11,680 Speaker 1: dog traveler unless they traveler got lost. If I heard 727 00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:15,200 Speaker 1: my husband Walt say I found her, I would take 728 00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:18,719 Speaker 1: that demean She's okay, you found her. When John is 729 00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:22,759 Speaker 1: coming up the steps, he hollers, I found her, and 730 00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:26,600 Speaker 1: Patsy drops to her knees and screams, no, not my baby. 731 00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:30,360 Speaker 2: That's exactly in line with what I'm talking about. 732 00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:33,680 Speaker 1: You and I are in sync there, yeah, I mean. 733 00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:36,000 Speaker 2: And people don't really see that. They think that John, 734 00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:38,040 Speaker 2: you know, was a party to it. I don't think 735 00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:40,480 Speaker 2: he was a party to it. I truly don't, so 736 00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:44,239 Speaker 2: that that case sticks with me because I really do 737 00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:46,920 Speaker 2: wish like we finally got this answer from your on 738 00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:51,440 Speaker 2: van der Sloot, you know, and there is something so satisfying, 739 00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:55,200 Speaker 2: mortifying and satisfying all at the same time. But at 740 00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:58,279 Speaker 2: least you have an answer, as best Twitty said, you 741 00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:03,000 Speaker 2: have an answer, how confession, You have a sense of 742 00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:07,719 Speaker 2: there's some justice in this world, you know, But in 743 00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:12,640 Speaker 2: the John Manty case, there's nothing. Just have emptiness. This 744 00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:16,080 Speaker 2: gorgeous little child. And then the whole sect was a 745 00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:19,960 Speaker 2: sexualization of her, which back then, you know, girls in 746 00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:22,920 Speaker 2: makeup and outfits at six years old were considered to be, 747 00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:28,680 Speaker 2: you know, unheard of. Now we have princesses and tiaras 748 00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:32,040 Speaker 2: and every other thing, and every My granddaughters run around 749 00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:35,960 Speaker 2: and makeup at eight years old, and dance classes and 750 00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:38,399 Speaker 2: dancer styles. I mean, I don't know when I grew 751 00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:39,759 Speaker 2: up as a kid, I was in a dancer style. 752 00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:42,319 Speaker 2: I want to too, I'd have eighteen outfits that cost 753 00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:45,560 Speaker 2: two hundred dollars apiece, with all kinds of crazy makeup 754 00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:48,760 Speaker 2: and eyelashes and every I mean, things have gotten very different, 755 00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:52,160 Speaker 2: obviously for young children, girls in particular, with that in 756 00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:56,640 Speaker 2: that regard. But back then, the rags the tabloids were 757 00:42:56,640 --> 00:43:00,560 Speaker 2: blaming John Ramsay for sexualizing his daughter. And you know, 758 00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:03,080 Speaker 2: I mean, how horrible, how horrible is that he had 759 00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:04,880 Speaker 2: nothing to do with it. You, by the way, he 760 00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:07,759 Speaker 2: did tell me. You know, Patsy had cancer, she knew it, 761 00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:11,680 Speaker 2: and that she took John Beney to Manhattan when John 762 00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:14,600 Speaker 2: Banney was five because she felt she wouldn't have the 763 00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:17,000 Speaker 2: opportunity to do that with her child later on, because 764 00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:20,560 Speaker 2: she felt she would die early. So she had she 765 00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:24,000 Speaker 2: already had a sense of her own demise. You know, 766 00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:29,560 Speaker 2: she knew she was sick and you don't take a 767 00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:31,960 Speaker 2: five year old to New York City by yourself, unless 768 00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:35,239 Speaker 2: unless you're thinking, you know, it doesn't didn't never occur 769 00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:37,839 Speaker 2: to men till he told me that, thinking to myself, Wow, 770 00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:40,400 Speaker 2: you know that Patsy realized she'd have a lot of 771 00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:43,000 Speaker 2: time on this earth with her kids. I don't know. 772 00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:47,040 Speaker 2: I just I really really wish that there would be 773 00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:50,280 Speaker 2: an answer, but I have a feeling that that answer 774 00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:52,680 Speaker 2: would not help the family, if you know what I mean. 775 00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:56,680 Speaker 1: So, Aphrodity, I cannot thank you enough for being with 776 00:43:56,800 --> 00:44:01,520 Speaker 1: us tonight and your extraordinary career in fantastic stories and 777 00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:05,480 Speaker 1: the way that you tell them is so necessary for justice. 778 00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:08,160 Speaker 2: Thank you for saying that, Cheryl, I really do appreciate it, 779 00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:10,719 Speaker 2: because at the end of the day, you know what 780 00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:13,000 Speaker 2: is it's all about. It's for me. It's all about 781 00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:15,720 Speaker 2: finding a way to make this world a safer place, 782 00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:19,359 Speaker 2: inch by inch, person by person. That's how you have 783 00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:22,239 Speaker 2: to do it. If you notice somebody who's being you 784 00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:25,719 Speaker 2: think is a victim of domestic violence, figure out somehow 785 00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:27,760 Speaker 2: some way to get through to them. If you notice 786 00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:31,640 Speaker 2: a kid that is off and needs extra counseling or whatever, 787 00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:34,879 Speaker 2: figure out how that can happen. Maybe their parents can't 788 00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:37,120 Speaker 2: are not in the position, Maybe this, maybe that, But 789 00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:40,560 Speaker 2: you know, we all we're all connected, and as much 790 00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:44,399 Speaker 2: as we're also disconnected with different countries, different values, at 791 00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:47,040 Speaker 2: the same time, when it's life and death, when it's violence, 792 00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:49,920 Speaker 2: when it's murdered, we're all in the same boat. And 793 00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:53,440 Speaker 2: let's try to find a way to keep the white 794 00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:55,680 Speaker 2: light around us. And the only way to do that 795 00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:58,120 Speaker 2: is to look into these stories that have happened to 796 00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:00,959 Speaker 2: other people and try deep lessons from them. And that's 797 00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:02,200 Speaker 2: what I am all about. 798 00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:06,480 Speaker 1: We are all connected. I cannot agree more. Thank you 799 00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:09,120 Speaker 1: again so much, And y'all, I'm going to end Zone 800 00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:12,680 Speaker 1: seven the way that I always do with a quote 801 00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:18,040 Speaker 1: the serial arsonist is the most difficult to apprehend because 802 00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:23,840 Speaker 1: the evidence is burned up Joseph Wambach. I'm Cheryl McCollum, 803 00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:25,320 Speaker 1: and this is Zone seven.