1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,079 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show. 5 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:28,560 Speaker 1: My name is Matt, my name is Noel. They called 6 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:31,600 Speaker 1: me Ben. We are joined as always with our super producer, 7 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:35,879 Speaker 1: all mission controlled decades. Most importantly, you are you. You 8 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 1: are here, and that makes this the stuff they don't 9 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:42,280 Speaker 1: want you to know. This is a very special interview, folks. 10 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:45,320 Speaker 1: It's one we've been looking forward to for quite a while. 11 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 1: If you are hearing today's show on the day it publishes, 12 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:52,479 Speaker 1: it is January sevente, the day that the US and 13 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:55,400 Speaker 1: the world commemorates the life and work of Dr Martin 14 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 1: Luther King, Jr. Based in Georgia, Dr King's work left 15 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 1: a fundamental mark on the fabric of American society and 16 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 1: also inspired an ongoing fight for justice across the planet. 17 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:10,399 Speaker 1: As you know, his life met a tragic early end 18 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:14,280 Speaker 1: on April fourth, nineteen sixty eight, when he was assassinated. 19 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:19,319 Speaker 1: The ensuing investigation left Dr King's supporters, friends, family, and 20 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:22,319 Speaker 1: a great deal of the American public skeptical. So now, 21 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 1: more than fifty years after his death, people are still 22 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:30,279 Speaker 1: working to understand what actually happened, and that's we're diving 23 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 1: into today. But we're not diving in alone. We are 24 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:39,200 Speaker 1: joined with the journalist, author podcaster Bill Klaibourg, co creator 25 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:42,920 Speaker 1: of the RFK Tapes, and also we're joined to speak 26 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 1: with him about his newest project, The MLK Tapes, in 27 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 1: which Bill applies his investigative acumen to the controversy and 28 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 1: the ongoing questions surrounding the assassination of the legendary civil 29 00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 1: rights leader Martin Luther King Jr. Bill, thanks so much 30 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 1: for joining us on air today. It's a pleasure to 31 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 1: be here. Ben. Thank you. Like now, one of the 32 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:08,440 Speaker 1: first questions that comes up in any of our research 33 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:13,920 Speaker 1: and preparation for these interviews is the question of inspiration 34 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 1: and motivation on your part as the creator of this project. 35 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 1: Folks may not be aware that you have also been 36 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:25,959 Speaker 1: the co creator of the RFK Tapes podcast, and one 37 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:29,680 Speaker 1: of our first questions is what inspired you to reinvestigate 38 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:32,520 Speaker 1: the story of that assassination and in what ways did 39 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:38,080 Speaker 1: this project inspire you to begin unraveling the story of Dr. King, well, 40 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 1: we go back aways if if, if we're going in 41 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 1: that direction. And it was thirty years ago that I 42 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:46,679 Speaker 1: joined a group of people who were looking into the 43 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:50,520 Speaker 1: murder of Robert Kennedy, and specifically looking at the police 44 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 1: files that had just been released after twenty years of secrecy. 45 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 1: I mean, Robert Kennedy was murdered. Uh, they said this 46 00:02:57,440 --> 00:03:00,239 Speaker 1: guy did it, and yet their police files were off 47 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:04,359 Speaker 1: limits to everyone, and they finally were forced open night 48 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:06,760 Speaker 1: and I was with a group of people who started 49 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 1: going through them, and we were shocked by what we 50 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 1: were finding. And we understood right away why these files 51 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 1: were secret, because it was a record of the police misconduct, 52 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:19,400 Speaker 1: their fabrication of evidence, destruction of evidence, and coercion of witnesses. 53 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:23,200 Speaker 1: And I went in and visited, uh, interviewed Sir Hann 54 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 1: in prison. It was a difficult thing to do. Came 55 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:27,919 Speaker 1: out and I wrote an article on what I had found, 56 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:29,920 Speaker 1: and I wasn't the only one, but what we had 57 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:33,720 Speaker 1: found in the police files and it was a terrific article. 58 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:38,360 Speaker 1: And no one, no one was interested. They just didn't 59 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 1: want it. So I I went back to Upstate New 60 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:45,240 Speaker 1: York UH and thought, you know, I've got these tapes 61 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 1: of the police threatening these witnesses, and and I just 62 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 1: got this idea. I went to a little public radio 63 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 1: station upstate New York and we put together this one 64 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 1: hour documentary called the RFK Tapes, and we just put 65 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 1: it out there and was picked up by a hundred 66 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 1: and sixty public radio stations across the country. I didn't 67 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 1: even know there were a hundred and sixty public radio stations, 68 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 1: and it was picked up, picked up by that, And 69 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 1: then the week after the Time magazine came out with 70 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 1: a full page review of the documentary, and St. Martin's 71 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 1: Press called me up and asked me to write a book. 72 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:23,480 Speaker 1: Now that was all on a story that nobody wanted, 73 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 1: And what's the takeaway from that? The takeaway from that 74 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:29,760 Speaker 1: is that if you can there is a great power 75 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:34,480 Speaker 1: if you can hear the actual witnesses voices as opposed 76 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 1: to someone talking about the case. And that's what we 77 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 1: had in the RFK Tapes. So a few years ago, 78 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 1: when I ran into a man who had spent decades 79 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:48,040 Speaker 1: investigating the murder of Martin Luther King and had dozens 80 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:51,279 Speaker 1: and dozens of audio tapes, it wasn't a great leap 81 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 1: for me to think of doing a podcast, and that's 82 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:56,720 Speaker 1: how the MLK tapes got started. Yeah, let let's really 83 00:04:56,760 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 1: dive into that. I want to talk about the taste themselves. U. 84 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 1: The person that you're you're referring to there is William 85 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 1: Bill Pepper, And uh, he's somebody that you've been speaking 86 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:09,160 Speaker 1: with for quite a while now, and he is the 87 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 1: person from from whom you've got all these tapes that 88 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:14,760 Speaker 1: we're gonna be hearing in the show. What was his 89 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:18,919 Speaker 1: involvement with Martin Luther King and with James Earl Ray, 90 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 1: Just tell us a little bit about that. That's an 91 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:26,239 Speaker 1: incredible story, um, and Bill Pepper was friends with Martin 92 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:28,839 Speaker 1: Luther King. During the last year of his life, he 93 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:32,360 Speaker 1: had gone to Vietnam. He had sent himself to Vietnam 94 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:35,360 Speaker 1: to see what was going on there, and he came 95 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:39,119 Speaker 1: back with photographs and stories of what he had seen. 96 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:42,120 Speaker 1: And it was shocking what he had seen, because what 97 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 1: we were doing over there with napalm and white phosphorus 98 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:47,920 Speaker 1: was not what we said we were doing. And he 99 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:51,360 Speaker 1: came back and nobody wanted his story, nobody wanted his photographs, 100 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:55,920 Speaker 1: and finally he shopped around and ramparts magazine stepped up 101 00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:59,840 Speaker 1: and and took his story and took his photographs, and 102 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:03,920 Speaker 1: Martin Luther King saw the article and saw the photographs 103 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:05,479 Speaker 1: and called him up and said, I want to I 104 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 1: want to I want to see you. I want to 105 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:09,800 Speaker 1: talk to you. And the two of them met and 106 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:14,360 Speaker 1: Pepper showed King what he had, and Pepper said, the 107 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:16,840 Speaker 1: King actually wept when he saw the photographs of the 108 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:21,720 Speaker 1: children that were burned, horribly, horribly burned. So they started 109 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:26,159 Speaker 1: a relationship, and Pepper was one of the influences why 110 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:30,000 Speaker 1: King had come out in the spring of nine sixty 111 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 1: seven at Riverside Church and came out against the war 112 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 1: in Vietnam. And uh, he and Pepper worked together the 113 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:41,760 Speaker 1: next year. Um and then King was assassinated, and Pepper 114 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 1: believed at first the same thing that everybody else did, 115 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 1: that James el Ray was a guy who killed King, 116 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:49,800 Speaker 1: and there wasn't really that much more to it. And 117 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:54,279 Speaker 1: uh it was only a few years later when Ralph Abernathy, 118 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:57,480 Speaker 1: King's number two, called Pepper on the phone and said, 119 00:06:57,800 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 1: I don't like what I'm here and I'm not believe 120 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:01,600 Speaker 1: in one I'm here and I'd like to go talk 121 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 1: to this guy Ray myself, would you come with me? 122 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:07,920 Speaker 1: And Pepper said, yeah, Okay, I don't really know that 123 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 1: much about the case. I need to I need to 124 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 1: look into it a little. But they agreed to go, 125 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:15,119 Speaker 1: and that summer they went up to Brushing Mountain State Prison, 126 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 1: sat down with James O. Ray, talked to him for 127 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 1: five hours, and they each came away with the almost 128 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 1: certain knowledge in their own minds that Ray had not 129 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 1: shot King. So that started Bill's investigation into the murder 130 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 1: of his friend. And he started going to Memphis and 131 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 1: asking questions and talking to people, and once it became 132 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 1: known that there was somebody interested, people started coming out 133 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 1: of the woodwork. People started coming forward. This is what 134 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 1: I saw, this is what I heard. And gradually the 135 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 1: case built up. But you know, I mean a lot 136 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 1: of things happened between. His investigation was forty years long. Um, 137 00:07:55,800 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 1: but uh, it's amazing how many people stepped forward, especially 138 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 1: as they approached death. People all of a sudden had 139 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 1: pangs of conscience. People didn't want to die with the 140 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 1: information they were holding, and they would come forward. And 141 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 1: every time somebody came forward, he would sit them down, 142 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:15,560 Speaker 1: put them under oath, and record what they had to say, 143 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:18,120 Speaker 1: and that's the material that we have to work with 144 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 1: on the MLK tapes. One of the questions that leads 145 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 1: me to naturally, and I think it's something a lot 146 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:26,720 Speaker 1: of people in the audience today will be wondering, is 147 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 1: built before you began working on this project, on this 148 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 1: deep dive into the assassination, what would you say was 149 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 1: your your typical understanding going in, like did you accept 150 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 1: the official conclusions of the U. S. Government or did 151 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 1: you have your own questions that you brought to the story. 152 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 1: I was in law school when Martin Luther King was shot, 153 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:54,839 Speaker 1: and uh, I first thought that, I mean, there was 154 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:57,480 Speaker 1: a lot of crap going on in the nineties sixties, 155 00:08:57,520 --> 00:08:59,320 Speaker 1: a lot of people getting shot, a lot of people 156 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:01,600 Speaker 1: getting killed, and it didn't matter how powerful they were, 157 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:05,880 Speaker 1: They're getting killed anyway. And so it wasn't a great 158 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:09,720 Speaker 1: leap to think that or something really underhanded happened with Kings. 159 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 1: So that was my first thought. But then this guy, 160 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 1: James el Ray was arrested. Uh. He eventually pled guilty 161 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:17,640 Speaker 1: to the crime, and like a lot of other people, 162 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:21,200 Speaker 1: I thought, well that was that, um, But the basic 163 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 1: story was this guy was so had so much hatred 164 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 1: for black people and so much hatred for Martin Luther 165 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:30,600 Speaker 1: King that he escaped prison and then went out and 166 00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:32,839 Speaker 1: searched for King and found him and killed him because 167 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 1: he hated him so much. And that was that was 168 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:38,560 Speaker 1: a very bogus story, but I, like a lot of 169 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 1: people believed it because it really wasn't anything else to 170 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 1: do to believe. But I had suspicions. But I just 171 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:49,440 Speaker 1: want to say that, you know, for a lot of 172 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 1: people listening to this podcast, Dr King is it's sort 173 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:57,080 Speaker 1: of a is an historical figure. He's like Abraham Lincoln. Well, 174 00:09:57,200 --> 00:09:59,840 Speaker 1: he wasn't like Abraham Lincoln to me. I remember when 175 00:09:59,880 --> 00:10:02,720 Speaker 1: he came to my college and he spoke, Uh, and 176 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:05,559 Speaker 1: he stood up and he spoke. There were no notes, 177 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:08,680 Speaker 1: He just spoke from the heart, and he he talked 178 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:12,480 Speaker 1: about how difficult the road was going to be going forward. Uh, 179 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 1: it wasn't It wasn't gonna be as easy as just 180 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:16,679 Speaker 1: getting a seat on the bus. It wasn't gonna be 181 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:20,679 Speaker 1: as easy getting a seat on a lunch counter. And 182 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:24,400 Speaker 1: and he was talking about how he wanted to fight 183 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 1: for economic justice, not just civil rights. He was moving 184 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:30,679 Speaker 1: away from civil rights and he hadn't yet come out 185 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 1: against the war, but that was just coming just in 186 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 1: a few months from them. And I was also in 187 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:40,240 Speaker 1: New York City when he spoke, uh just a couple 188 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 1: of weeks after he gave the speech at um Uh 189 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:46,079 Speaker 1: Riverside Church, and he spoke at the steps of the 190 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:50,319 Speaker 1: United Nations. And the man who introduced him at that rally, 191 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:52,120 Speaker 1: and it was more people than I had ever seen 192 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:54,600 Speaker 1: in one place. It just as far as you could see, 193 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:58,240 Speaker 1: there were people. And the man who introduced him was 194 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:01,200 Speaker 1: Bill Pepper. Uh into do something at that rally in 195 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:04,679 Speaker 1: New York City. And I don't remember what Pepper said 196 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 1: that didn't register, But I do remember what Martin Luther 197 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 1: King said, and you could hear his voice booming out, 198 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:14,720 Speaker 1: stop the bombing, stop the bombing, save our national honor, 199 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:17,920 Speaker 1: and stop the bombing. So he was a real person 200 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 1: to me. He wasn't just some some historical somebody. I've 201 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:24,240 Speaker 1: had a lot of feelings because I came of age 202 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 1: in the nineteen sixties and there's a lot of anchor 203 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 1: inside me because of what I saw happened, and looking 204 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 1: into the murder Robert Kennedy and to a certain extent, 205 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:36,440 Speaker 1: John Kennedy has just made me mistrust a lot of 206 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:38,440 Speaker 1: things that were said to us back then. You know, 207 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:40,440 Speaker 1: I think it's easy to take for granted, like how 208 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:43,680 Speaker 1: today we have access to so much information, like literally 209 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:48,200 Speaker 1: at our fingertips the whole of history of music, of culture. Um. 210 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 1: And so it's maybe a little easier to be distrustful 211 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 1: and question these kind of narratives that you know, get 212 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:56,880 Speaker 1: put forth because you know, now with the you know, 213 00:11:57,080 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 1: the benefit of hindsight, the story around James l Rage 214 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 1: stinks to high heaven and just even just common sense 215 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 1: kind of makes one feel, with even a little bit 216 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 1: of research that there's just something weird going on there. 217 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 1: But why at the time do you think it was 218 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 1: easier to swallow that story. Was it something that people 219 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 1: just needed to put this to bed because it was 220 00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:18,679 Speaker 1: so painful? Um? Or was it just kind of like 221 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:22,680 Speaker 1: something that made sense? Uh, you know, given that lack 222 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:24,679 Speaker 1: of you know, what we have to work with today, 223 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 1: I would say neither. Um, I think what it was. Uh. Well, 224 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 1: first of all, James Elry was arrested in Great Britain. 225 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:33,079 Speaker 1: He was brought to the United States. Uh. He was 226 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 1: then put in a cage um for eight months that 227 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:38,840 Speaker 1: where the lights were not turned off at all any 228 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:41,640 Speaker 1: time during the day. Uh, he was only allowed to 229 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:44,600 Speaker 1: see his brother and his lawyer. So he's kept in 230 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:49,440 Speaker 1: communicado the whole time. And uh when he you know, 231 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:52,560 Speaker 1: when they finally let him come out, it was to 232 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 1: make a play of guilty to the charges. So when 233 00:12:57,000 --> 00:12:59,440 Speaker 1: whenever I have a conversation with someone and I said, oh, 234 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 1: I'm working on the Martin Luther King case, the common 235 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:05,240 Speaker 1: reaction is, well, the guy said he did it. What 236 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 1: what's the big deal? And that's what they were going for, 237 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:10,199 Speaker 1: because if they could get a plea of guilty out 238 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:12,200 Speaker 1: of him, they would never have to explain any of 239 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 1: the rest of it. And so what we're trying to 240 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:17,960 Speaker 1: do in this podcast, we have a whole episode, I 241 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:20,959 Speaker 1: think it's number four where we go into how that 242 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:24,000 Speaker 1: plea actually came about and how he was forced into it, 243 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 1: and it's it's a nasty, nasty story, but you know 244 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:31,560 Speaker 1: that's that's what people will come back at you with, Well, 245 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 1: he said he did it, and you know the answer 246 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 1: is no. He always denied it. He always said he 247 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:40,439 Speaker 1: did not kill Martin Luther King. From the first moment 248 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:43,160 Speaker 1: he said it to his last breath. There is no 249 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 1: reason to question it for for for you, for someone 250 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:48,120 Speaker 1: that was even as close and to to him as 251 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:50,120 Speaker 1: a as a person to king, or at least in 252 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 1: terms of like you know, a person you respected and saw, 253 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:54,960 Speaker 1: um you know speak in real life. There was no 254 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 1: nothing in the back of your mind that made you 255 00:13:57,240 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 1: at the time question it because of those reasons. Um, 256 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 1: I wouldn't say nothing. I questioned a lot of stuff, 257 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:06,959 Speaker 1: but uh, you know, there wasn't anything to hang your 258 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:09,560 Speaker 1: hat on. There wasn't anything too that you could use 259 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:14,560 Speaker 1: to know, um, and so I was suspicious. It was 260 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:17,960 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, Yeah, So I'm want to get into this 261 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 1: the concept of the trial and uh, you know, we 262 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 1: we don't have to go too deep into it. But 263 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:27,040 Speaker 1: James Earl Ray was never given a proper trial by 264 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:30,840 Speaker 1: jury because he pled guilty. He attempted to appeal that 265 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:33,280 Speaker 1: plea I think a few days later, right, maybe three 266 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:37,840 Speaker 1: days later, and he was unable to to get that 267 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 1: to happen. And there's some weird circumstance there too. I'll 268 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:44,320 Speaker 1: let you listen to the podcast to get some of that. 269 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:49,600 Speaker 1: But uh, some evidence did come forward in some um 270 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 1: let's say some ways that you may not expect. And 271 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 1: this was mind blowing to me, and I learned it 272 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 1: through the creation of this this podcast. Was that there 273 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 1: was a n mock trial of James Earl Ray that 274 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:06,240 Speaker 1: aired on HBO. I was ten years old at the time. 275 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:09,160 Speaker 1: I had no idea this occurred. I've never seen footage 276 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:11,960 Speaker 1: of it until I was like forced to because I was, 277 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 1: you know, making the show with you. And it blew 278 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 1: my mind two to know that some evidence was actually 279 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 1: put on trial in a mock way. Uh and and 280 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:25,920 Speaker 1: people got to watch HBO and learn about it. Can 281 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:28,040 Speaker 1: you tell us a little bit about that mock trial 282 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:31,520 Speaker 1: and what happened? It was a great idea. It goes 283 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 1: to the creativity of Bill pepper and and the energy 284 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:36,680 Speaker 1: he brought to this case, and he tried to get 285 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:40,040 Speaker 1: Ray a real trial. He appealed the case. He went 286 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 1: to the state, and they went to federal court, and 287 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:44,320 Speaker 1: they went to a federal appeals court, and he finally 288 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:47,840 Speaker 1: went went to the Supreme Court saying, this man never 289 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 1: got a trial. He was denied the trial he was 290 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 1: entitled to, and he failed. He just couldn't get a 291 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 1: trial for James el Ray. And then the idea came 292 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 1: to he knew this produced are in Great Britain, who said, 293 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:05,400 Speaker 1: why don't we put one on? You know, an HBO 294 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:09,000 Speaker 1: signed on for it, and it was a big undertaking. 295 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 1: They had UM, a real federal judge, retired federal judge 296 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 1: UM overseeing the case and in using the laws of 297 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 1: u UM the state of Tennessee, and they had a 298 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:25,680 Speaker 1: real jury that was selected impartial jury, and they had 299 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:30,960 Speaker 1: a US prosecutor from Memphis, hickman Ewing, on the other side. 300 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 1: And they conducted the trial and put on the evidence 301 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 1: and introduced the witnesses pretty much just as you would 302 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 1: at a trial. James L. Ray also testified and he 303 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:44,560 Speaker 1: was cross examined by hickman Ewing, who gave him a 304 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:48,080 Speaker 1: rough time, but uh, he just stuck with his his story. 305 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:50,320 Speaker 1: But this was as close to a real trial as 306 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:53,480 Speaker 1: you could get. And uh, you know, the the jury 307 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 1: decided that they didn't meet meet the requirement of reasonable 308 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 1: doubt and they acquitted him, which, by the way, is 309 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 1: what his original attorneys, we might get to later, thought 310 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 1: they were going to do in the first place. After 311 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:09,160 Speaker 1: they took the case on, they thought the evidence against 312 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:12,320 Speaker 1: Ray was really thin and what there was of it 313 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 1: appeared to have been planted. So I mean, anyway that 314 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:20,480 Speaker 1: this trial, this HBO trial, um, they got their first win, 315 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:23,679 Speaker 1: their first big win. Of course nobody covered it, so 316 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:26,919 Speaker 1: you know, it wasn't it wasn't very well known. And 317 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:30,360 Speaker 1: this is, uh, this is one of the things. There 318 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:32,880 Speaker 1: are so many questions I want to return to, but 319 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:35,440 Speaker 1: let's let's stay on this for a moment, because this 320 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:38,800 Speaker 1: is one of the things that I think much of 321 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 1: history conveniently forgot. Is Uh, the narrative that a lot 322 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:47,919 Speaker 1: of children in the US are taught in school is 323 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:53,080 Speaker 1: inarguably sanitized in some ways, right, or at least focuses 324 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:56,480 Speaker 1: on some things and kind of glosses over others. And 325 00:17:56,720 --> 00:17:59,879 Speaker 1: if you if you count the mock trial as at 326 00:17:59,880 --> 00:18:03,199 Speaker 1: the very least the closest to a trial that Ray got. 327 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:07,320 Speaker 1: It may surprise other people to know that the King 328 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 1: family successfully won a civil suit in nineteen ninety nine. 329 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:20,119 Speaker 1: This suit, I believe also at least temporarily inspired the 330 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 1: Department of Justice to reopen their investigation. Could you tell 331 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 1: us a little bit about the civil suit, a little 332 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 1: bit about how like the order of operations which broke 333 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:33,960 Speaker 1: down in which it broke down and what that means 334 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:38,959 Speaker 1: to the investigation as people perceive it today, and looking 335 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:43,120 Speaker 1: specifically for the finding where they agreed it was a conspiracy. 336 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:47,240 Speaker 1: The civil trial in nine gosh, how to exactly explain it. 337 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:50,439 Speaker 1: It was a terrific, terrific idea because it was a 338 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:54,679 Speaker 1: way to use a civil suit to sue a person 339 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 1: who they knew was involved in the murder and then 340 00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:02,160 Speaker 1: various unnamed government agency in the murder of Martin Luther King. 341 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:04,879 Speaker 1: And you know, they were only asking for a hundred 342 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:08,920 Speaker 1: dollars worth of damages. Uh. But what the whole purpose 343 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:11,960 Speaker 1: of it was that they could get in the in 344 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 1: the context of this trial, they could get all the 345 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:17,960 Speaker 1: witnesses that that were still alive and that could testify, 346 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 1: get them up and have them testify under oath in 347 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:24,160 Speaker 1: a court of law, and have that testimony be part 348 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:27,880 Speaker 1: of that trial and so where it would be accessible 349 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:31,879 Speaker 1: to history. And so that was that was the big 350 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 1: takeaway there. And the fact that they won the case 351 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:37,880 Speaker 1: I don't think means a whole lot because there wasn't 352 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:40,800 Speaker 1: a lot of opposition on the other side. Um, they 353 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:43,480 Speaker 1: were only looking for a hundred bucks uh to a 354 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:47,440 Speaker 1: certain extent, It wasn't as important event as you might 355 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 1: think it was in terms of the verdict, but in 356 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 1: terms of the process, in terms of all the people 357 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:55,720 Speaker 1: who went and testified, in terms of the participation of 358 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 1: the King family, and what Kreta Scott King said after 359 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:03,240 Speaker 1: the trial, that's the importance of it. So sometimes people say, oh, well, 360 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:05,399 Speaker 1: there really wasn't anybody fighting on the other side, and 361 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:07,800 Speaker 1: that's the truth. And they could have made a bigger 362 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 1: mess of things if there had been. But what it 363 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 1: was was a way to get the evidence out in front, 364 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:15,119 Speaker 1: and they did that. And we there. We're going to 365 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:17,360 Speaker 1: take a quick moment to hear a word from our sponsor, 366 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:27,240 Speaker 1: but we'll be right back. And we've returned with Bill 367 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:30,240 Speaker 1: clam So I want to talk about the Department of 368 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:34,800 Speaker 1: Justice's reaction to that trial and to its conclusion. I'm 369 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:37,120 Speaker 1: gonna read you a tiny little excerpt here from their 370 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:41,879 Speaker 1: website Justice dot gov. Uh. They say, we recommend no 371 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:45,239 Speaker 1: further federal investigation of the Jowers allegations. The man's name 372 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:48,119 Speaker 1: is Lloyd Jowers, by the way, who was sued, or 373 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 1: any other allegations related to the assassination unless and until 374 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:55,760 Speaker 1: reliable substantiating facts are presented. At this time, we are 375 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:58,960 Speaker 1: aware of no information to warrant any further investigation of 376 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:03,480 Speaker 1: the assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. So they 377 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:08,200 Speaker 1: say that in response to everything that came forward during 378 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:10,919 Speaker 1: that civil trial, stuff that had occurred before, which you know, 379 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:13,719 Speaker 1: became a part of the civil trial, why do you 380 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:17,320 Speaker 1: Bill think there's more to this case than the Justice 381 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:22,240 Speaker 1: Department does. Well, they came to the same conclusion that 382 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:25,480 Speaker 1: the FBI came to the day after Martin Luther King 383 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:28,480 Speaker 1: was shot. They came to the same conclusion that the 384 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 1: House Select Committee on Assassinations came to, even though there 385 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:37,159 Speaker 1: were numerous examples of the House Select Committee stumbling on 386 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 1: some piece of the truth and then all of a 387 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:42,359 Speaker 1: sudden realized they're in that situation, and they make up 388 00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:46,560 Speaker 1: another cockamami story instead of saying, oh, oh, I see 389 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 1: James ol Ray actually didn't have a racial motive and 390 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:54,480 Speaker 1: he didn't wasn't driven by hate. Uh Do they then say, oh, 391 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:58,040 Speaker 1: maybe he didn't shoot King. No, they say, well, he 392 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:01,520 Speaker 1: probably did to get a reward for the bounty of 393 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:05,879 Speaker 1: which there's no evidence at all. And several different times 394 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 1: they would come upon uh something like that. That Percy 395 00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:13,840 Speaker 1: Foreman was the big liar was another one of their conclusions, 396 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 1: because he went and testified and he just revealed himself 397 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 1: as a total crap head. Uh, And they said nothing 398 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:24,919 Speaker 1: nothing he said it can be relied upon. Do they 399 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 1: then think, oh, maybe this guy who pushed his way 400 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:31,680 Speaker 1: into the case, who's such a liar, maybe he was 401 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:33,880 Speaker 1: working for somebody else. No, they don't do that. They 402 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 1: just shrug it off. Um. When they when they when 403 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:42,920 Speaker 1: they they finally come to the conclusion that James el 404 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:45,840 Speaker 1: Ray going back and exchanging the rifle he bought for 405 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 1: another rifle, they finally realized, oh my goodness, this is 406 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 1: ten years later. That probably means there was somebody else involved. 407 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:57,120 Speaker 1: Of course, that's what it means. So um, and they 408 00:22:57,119 --> 00:22:59,920 Speaker 1: come to that conclusion. But oh my goodness, that can't 409 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:03,639 Speaker 1: be because that's what Ray said. That can't be true. 410 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:06,679 Speaker 1: So the next best thing is, you know, it was 411 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:09,640 Speaker 1: probably his brother, and that keeps it all in the family. 412 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:13,639 Speaker 1: So they keep stumbling over these things that should be 413 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:16,919 Speaker 1: clues as to there's something else going on here, and 414 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:20,720 Speaker 1: they just make up another phony story. And so the 415 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:24,480 Speaker 1: same thing with the Justice department. Their job was, you know, 416 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:27,280 Speaker 1: it gets handed down and handed down and then and 417 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 1: then they go and they find every little reason to 418 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:33,919 Speaker 1: disbelieve every single witness. Oh, this guy lied to his 419 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:38,560 Speaker 1: seventh grade teacher about something or other, and so you know, 420 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 1: that was their job. Their job was to find there 421 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:42,720 Speaker 1: was you know, come out and say, there's nothing to 422 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:44,920 Speaker 1: worry about, folks. We've been we've been back in there, 423 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:47,359 Speaker 1: We've looked at the evidence. Don't worry, there's nothing to see. 424 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:50,960 Speaker 1: That's what they're paid to do. And this, uh, this 425 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:55,320 Speaker 1: I think could use a little context for our audience 426 00:23:55,320 --> 00:24:01,920 Speaker 1: today because at times can currently concurrent with these investigations 427 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:06,040 Speaker 1: and with the shutdowns of investigations, the public was slowly 428 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 1: learning about a government program called co in Tell Pro, 429 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 1: and it wasn't i believe, confirmed for some time, at 430 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 1: least officially until after King's death, that co Intel Pro, 431 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:23,800 Speaker 1: which was a surveillance and monitoring program on the part 432 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:29,400 Speaker 1: of Uncle Sam, was actively monitoring and even harassing King 433 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:35,960 Speaker 1: and members of his family. Was the d o J 434 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:41,040 Speaker 1: or the FBI were they motivated to perhaps go with 435 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:47,640 Speaker 1: their convenient narrative despite the contradictory facts because of knowledge 436 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 1: of co Intel Pro or do you believe that played 437 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:53,680 Speaker 1: any role in their calculus there. I don't think that 438 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:55,720 Speaker 1: played a role in the calculus so much. I mean, 439 00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:58,840 Speaker 1: when co Intel Pro came out, they were hard. Everybody 440 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:02,680 Speaker 1: was horribly embarrassed. Church Committee had hearings and they were 441 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:07,159 Speaker 1: particularly outraged at how uh this program was used on 442 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:10,480 Speaker 1: Dr King and um, so there was a lot of 443 00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:15,480 Speaker 1: outrage about that and and uh but um, if you 444 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:21,320 Speaker 1: follow it back, it's really hard to understand why Hoover 445 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:25,239 Speaker 1: went after King in such a way. Um, here you 446 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:28,920 Speaker 1: had a black leader who had a lot of moral 447 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:32,600 Speaker 1: authority and who was standing up and telling people, Yes, 448 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:35,160 Speaker 1: we want our rights, we want what is due to us, 449 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:39,200 Speaker 1: and we want to be we want to be nonviolent, 450 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:40,959 Speaker 1: we want to obey the law. We want you know, 451 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:44,680 Speaker 1: he was not preaching violence, and yet they were going 452 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:48,040 Speaker 1: after him like he was a great danger to the society. 453 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:53,119 Speaker 1: And it's it's and Hoover um was pretending all the 454 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:57,080 Speaker 1: time that somehow King was falling under the control of 455 00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:00,240 Speaker 1: communists and that was the big reason that he had 456 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:04,120 Speaker 1: to have the right to wire tap King. And it's 457 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:07,240 Speaker 1: a pretty sad story. And in the States, Bobby Kennedy 458 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:10,960 Speaker 1: briefly gave him the right to wire tap for one month, 459 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:13,440 Speaker 1: and that was supposed to be uh, you know, if 460 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:16,200 Speaker 1: you see if you can come up with any you know, information, 461 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:20,960 Speaker 1: communist information for one month, and then Mark John Kennedy 462 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 1: was then murdered right after that, and any control that 463 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 1: Bobby Kennedy had over Hoover he instantly evaporated, and Hoover 464 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:34,840 Speaker 1: within a month held a big meeting in Washington that 465 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:38,000 Speaker 1: Kennedy didn't know about where that all they did was 466 00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:41,720 Speaker 1: discussed different ways they could bring down Martin Luther King. 467 00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:44,600 Speaker 1: And that's a matter of record. I listened. Every once 468 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,359 Speaker 1: in a while, I'll just to refresh my soul on 469 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:50,520 Speaker 1: this thing. I'll listen to a speech that King gave 470 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:54,960 Speaker 1: one place or another um And the other day I 471 00:26:55,080 --> 00:27:01,600 Speaker 1: just listened to the entire Riverside Church speech on Vietnam. 472 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 1: And I would recommend to anybody, if you want to 473 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:06,680 Speaker 1: know about Martin Luther King, you want to know about 474 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:08,840 Speaker 1: his character, you want to know about his courage, you 475 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:11,919 Speaker 1: listen to that speech. Because he's standing up. He's the 476 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:15,359 Speaker 1: first major public figure to stand up and say this 477 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:18,199 Speaker 1: is wrong. And he knows when he does it. He 478 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:19,960 Speaker 1: knows when he does it, it's gonna mean the money 479 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 1: is gonna dry up on his end, and he's gonna 480 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:25,760 Speaker 1: make big enemies. And he's still he stands up and said, 481 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:28,160 Speaker 1: this is wrong to be doing what we're doing there, 482 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,840 Speaker 1: And you know, you listen to a tape like that 483 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 1: and then hear these people bringing forward little stuff to 484 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 1: assassinate his character. It makes me sick. And just to 485 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 1: remind everybody, that speech was given exactly one year to 486 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 1: the day before he was assassinated, exactly one year to 487 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:49,480 Speaker 1: the day. And following that speech, that's when he was 488 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:53,840 Speaker 1: called a communist by newspapers and you know, prominent media figures. 489 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:56,679 Speaker 1: So just to keep that in context. Well, I mean, 490 00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 1: I think it's like most of us can tell the difference, 491 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:05,400 Speaker 1: but Queen rhetoric and political posturing and what Dr King did, 492 00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:08,800 Speaker 1: I mean when you hear him speak, it has a 493 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:12,639 Speaker 1: magic to it. There's there's an absolute, you know, level 494 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:16,000 Speaker 1: of charisma that is outside of the charisma of a politician, 495 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 1: you know, or someone who is trying to kind of 496 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:21,240 Speaker 1: twist the screw and make people behave as they want to. 497 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 1: This is a man that put himself in harm's way 498 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:28,480 Speaker 1: that put himself his reputation, you know, uh, out there 499 00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:31,680 Speaker 1: in a way where people could besmirch him at every turn. Uh, 500 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:33,440 Speaker 1: and he didn't care. And so when you hear him 501 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 1: make these speeches, they are absolutely the real deal. I mean, 502 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:39,640 Speaker 1: whatever you may think, I think that comes through. And 503 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:42,280 Speaker 1: I think it's interesting when you were we're getting towards 504 00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:46,320 Speaker 1: kind of the intent, like what why assassinate Martin Luther King? Yes, 505 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:48,880 Speaker 1: he represented a movement, of course, and he was the 506 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:51,800 Speaker 1: fifth face of this movement. But the problems that that 507 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:56,400 Speaker 1: that led to the movement being necessary pre exist, you know, 508 00:28:56,480 --> 00:29:00,920 Speaker 1: the movement and and and you can't really get rid 509 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:05,400 Speaker 1: of that problem or the people's discontentment by killing a man. 510 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:07,200 Speaker 1: You know, if anything, it's going to make them angrier. 511 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:09,840 Speaker 1: And I heard someone uh in in commenting on on 512 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:13,200 Speaker 1: this tragic event of of his passing, that he they 513 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:16,680 Speaker 1: didn't realize that that he was the white man's biggest 514 00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 1: advocate in terms of, you know, keeping these riots from 515 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:24,040 Speaker 1: destroying you know, society, and and from being out there 516 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:26,360 Speaker 1: and and and preaching non violence and things like that. 517 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:28,560 Speaker 1: Can you kind of speak to that side of Dr 518 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:31,600 Speaker 1: King and how maybe the people that were trying to 519 00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:35,680 Speaker 1: assassinate his character, let alone him physically. Maybe missed the point, 520 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:39,200 Speaker 1: missed that that whole idea that he really was kind 521 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 1: of there to help them. It's a little hard to understand. Uh. 522 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:46,040 Speaker 1: You know, Hoover is a big part of this equation. 523 00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:50,320 Speaker 1: He's not the only piece, um, but Hoover had some 524 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:53,800 Speaker 1: sort of hatred towards King that is a little bit unexplainable. 525 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:57,200 Speaker 1: I think he was a little jealous. I think he 526 00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:00,120 Speaker 1: was jealous of King and didn't like the attention he 527 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 1: was getting um, and he liked being the guy that 528 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:06,920 Speaker 1: was pushing all the pieces around, and he was used 529 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:10,440 Speaker 1: to getting his way because he had secret files on everybody, 530 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:13,640 Speaker 1: and he had a lot of files on John F. Kennedy. 531 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:17,200 Speaker 1: Uh And one of the reasons that Bobby Kennedy ended 532 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:20,760 Speaker 1: up agreeing to the limited wire tapping thing that Hoover 533 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:24,480 Speaker 1: so badly wanted was that Hoover had just gotten Kennedy 534 00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:29,200 Speaker 1: out of another one as his sexual escapade scrapes with 535 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:33,280 Speaker 1: Ellen Romesh, who was thought to maybe be connected to 536 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:40,600 Speaker 1: East German intelligence. And uh So, after Hoover rescued Kennedy 537 00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:43,000 Speaker 1: and his presidency, that might have gone down because they 538 00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:45,760 Speaker 1: were gonna have professional hearings on this thing. And Hoover 539 00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:47,760 Speaker 1: then met with the heads of Congress in the Senate 540 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:50,800 Speaker 1: and saying, oh, this is gonna, you know, blow up 541 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:52,560 Speaker 1: in everybody's face, and we can't do this, and a 542 00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 1: lot of that, and he got Kennedy out of it, 543 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:56,680 Speaker 1: and then he went back to Bobby and said, well, 544 00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:00,200 Speaker 1: you know, do I get my wire taps? And at 545 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:03,400 Speaker 1: that point, um, you know, Bobby said yeah, okay, you know, 546 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:05,360 Speaker 1: for a month or whatever if you really think you 547 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,640 Speaker 1: can dig up stuff. And they often said, oh, Bobby 548 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:11,960 Speaker 1: Kennedy was the one who who decided to wire tap King. 549 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:15,560 Speaker 1: It's not true he consented because it basically their hand 550 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 1: was forced and they owed it to Hoover, who not 551 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 1: only got him out of that trouble, but got him 552 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:23,760 Speaker 1: other out of other sexual trouble that he had gotten 553 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:27,840 Speaker 1: himself into a quid pro quo. It appears, uh this 554 00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:32,640 Speaker 1: might surprise many people to learn that those kind of deals, 555 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:36,920 Speaker 1: unofficial but impactful, can occur, and they often occur outside 556 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:39,240 Speaker 1: of the public sphere. There are things that the public 557 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:44,080 Speaker 1: will learn about in retrospect. And when we're talking about murkiness, 558 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:47,480 Speaker 1: Bill um one thing that really stands out to me 559 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:51,800 Speaker 1: in episode three, specifically, we were fortunate enough to get 560 00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:57,120 Speaker 1: a sneak peak. Is just the sheer, the sheer profundity 561 00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:01,880 Speaker 1: of murkiness that is involved in this story of James 562 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:04,960 Speaker 1: Earl Ray. And I think this gave I think this 563 00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:09,040 Speaker 1: um gave a lot of red meat to people who 564 00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:14,040 Speaker 1: were initially claiming there was a cover up or corruption involved. 565 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:16,880 Speaker 1: And I'd love to hear you talk about some things 566 00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 1: that really stood out to me in your conversations in 567 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:26,320 Speaker 1: episode three, wherein we we already talked about how Ray 568 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 1: never actually went to a jury trial. He very early 569 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:35,200 Speaker 1: on recanted is guilty plea, but he also managed to 570 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:39,800 Speaker 1: escape from incarceration, never spoke about who may have assisted him, 571 00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:42,080 Speaker 1: And despite the fact that he was known to be 572 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:47,280 Speaker 1: a petty criminal, our understanding is that he was also 573 00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:51,280 Speaker 1: found with some pretty good fake identification at one point. 574 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:56,360 Speaker 1: How also, you know, let's just throw this out here 575 00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:00,440 Speaker 1: and emphasize this again, the guy was arrested in Great Britain. 576 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 1: How does a petty criminal who actually doesn't sound like 577 00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:07,719 Speaker 1: they're that great at petty crime? How does a petty 578 00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:12,880 Speaker 1: criminal manage to achieve all of these things to escape 579 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:18,280 Speaker 1: from incarceration, to have actionable like I'll say, it may 580 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:21,120 Speaker 1: be pro level fake I D S. And then how 581 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:23,800 Speaker 1: does he get across the pond? Are there any answers 582 00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:27,600 Speaker 1: to these questions? Well, you know, we're gonna be called 583 00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:32,440 Speaker 1: conspiracy theorists anyway, so um uh, you know, and I 584 00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:35,640 Speaker 1: don't think of myself as conspiracy theorist. You know, I'm 585 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 1: not a conspiracy guy. I'm an evidence guy. But uh, 586 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:41,440 Speaker 1: but there are some places where you need to just 587 00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:46,080 Speaker 1: sort of apply theory to it, and um, I think 588 00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:48,920 Speaker 1: his escape from prison is one of them. There is evidence. 589 00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:52,680 Speaker 1: Ronnie Lee Atkins claims that he and his father drove 590 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:55,880 Speaker 1: out to Missouri with twenty dollars and gave it to 591 00:33:56,600 --> 00:34:01,240 Speaker 1: the prison warden uh and changed for the release of 592 00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:05,960 Speaker 1: James ol Ray. And the idea was that they were 593 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:09,080 Speaker 1: looking for some you know, and it maybe they may 594 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:11,440 Speaker 1: have had other ideas of other people they wanted to use, 595 00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:13,880 Speaker 1: but they were looking for someone they could use to 596 00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:16,600 Speaker 1: be a fall guy. And they thought this guy Ray 597 00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:21,160 Speaker 1: was perfect for them, and so they allowed him to escape, 598 00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:24,200 Speaker 1: arranged for him to escape in his bread truck, and 599 00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:26,880 Speaker 1: then they just kept taps tabs on him as he 600 00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:29,879 Speaker 1: traveled around in Canada and other places, and then kind 601 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:32,799 Speaker 1: of directed him here there. You know, it may be 602 00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:35,320 Speaker 1: that at one point they he was sent down to 603 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:37,920 Speaker 1: Birmingham and then nothing happened. There might have been some 604 00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:41,319 Speaker 1: plot to kill King in Birmingham. He was out in 605 00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:45,080 Speaker 1: Los Angeles for a long time. They say he stalked King. 606 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:47,960 Speaker 1: He didn't stalk King. He was out in Los Angeles. 607 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:51,480 Speaker 1: King came to Los Angeles. But the thing with Ray 608 00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:55,759 Speaker 1: is that he would never rat on anybody who helped him. 609 00:34:55,800 --> 00:35:00,440 Speaker 1: So whether it was whoever helped him escape from prison, 610 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:03,759 Speaker 1: this was his culture. He had spent almost his entire 611 00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:05,920 Speaker 1: adult life in prison, and one of the things he 612 00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:10,480 Speaker 1: learned is if you just don't rat out anybody, and uh, 613 00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:15,560 Speaker 1: and he wouldn't. Yes, he had uh fake identities of 614 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:19,040 Speaker 1: people uh that he could never have gotten on his own. 615 00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:21,440 Speaker 1: He had to have had help. He had to have 616 00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:24,480 Speaker 1: help escaping from prison. He could not have made that 617 00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:27,080 Speaker 1: escape on his own. He had to have help and 618 00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:32,160 Speaker 1: probably permission. Um. So you know, there are places where 619 00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:36,480 Speaker 1: he just will not tell, even to Bill Pepper, various 620 00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:39,239 Speaker 1: things he met with people in New Orleans. He says 621 00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:41,680 Speaker 1: he met with Raoul in New Orleans. It might have 622 00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:45,520 Speaker 1: been more people than that, maybe Carlos Marcello was in 623 00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:48,480 Speaker 1: the room. But what good does it do him to 624 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:52,560 Speaker 1: say that, because that will only assure he gets killed 625 00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:55,640 Speaker 1: in prison. So it may be that it's a more 626 00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:59,480 Speaker 1: complicated story than he's been willing to uh to let 627 00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:02,600 Speaker 1: on um. But he knows that, you know, if he 628 00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:05,200 Speaker 1: starts saying, well, there are these mob guys in New 629 00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:07,960 Speaker 1: Orleans that I met, it will be the end for him. 630 00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:10,520 Speaker 1: So I don't know. That's just an idea I have 631 00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:14,560 Speaker 1: in my head. But he's he's a strange character. And 632 00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:17,200 Speaker 1: I don't believe he shot Martin Luther King. I don't 633 00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:19,560 Speaker 1: believe he knew Martin Luther King was going to be shot. 634 00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:22,480 Speaker 1: I don't think that everything he told Bill Pepper is 635 00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:26,960 Speaker 1: necessarily the truth. Yes, and you've had similar conversations in 636 00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:30,239 Speaker 1: the course of the MLK tapes, And in some of 637 00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:32,960 Speaker 1: these conversations you mentioned something that I want to go 638 00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:36,320 Speaker 1: back to. It's a character that may not be familiar 639 00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:42,120 Speaker 1: to people with a cursory knowledge of the assassination. Ensuing investigations, 640 00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:47,319 Speaker 1: a guy named Raoul who apparently appears and as kind 641 00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:51,239 Speaker 1: of a cameo and then somehow vanishes from history. So 642 00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:55,640 Speaker 1: can you introduce our audience to Raoul or at least 643 00:36:55,640 --> 00:37:00,680 Speaker 1: the story of this person. Raoul was the person that 644 00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:04,320 Speaker 1: Ray said he met in Canada and who he started 645 00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:07,600 Speaker 1: to go to work for smuggling, doing small smuggling jobs 646 00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:11,160 Speaker 1: across the border, and then then going south, and Raoul 647 00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:13,759 Speaker 1: gave him enough money to buy a Mustang and then 648 00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:18,000 Speaker 1: they did some small smuggling jobs in Mexico. And Raoul 649 00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:22,160 Speaker 1: was the one who um according to Ray, who who 650 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:24,719 Speaker 1: told him to go buy a rifle in Birmingham, and 651 00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:26,520 Speaker 1: then when he came back with the rifle, said it 652 00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:28,120 Speaker 1: was the wrong rifle and he had to go back 653 00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:31,799 Speaker 1: and exchange it for another gun. So Raoul is that 654 00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:36,120 Speaker 1: character when Ray tells his story when he's arrested, he 655 00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:40,400 Speaker 1: tells his story to Bradford Huie and um, where he 656 00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:43,120 Speaker 1: went in Canada and who he met, and where he 657 00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:46,960 Speaker 1: worked and and all these things, and Hughie was able 658 00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:50,080 Speaker 1: to substantiate almost all of it. Um, you know, where 659 00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:53,480 Speaker 1: he worked at the Indian Trail restaurant. And Hughie goes 660 00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:55,560 Speaker 1: up and talks to those people and said he was 661 00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:58,200 Speaker 1: he was really a gentleman. He was. He was the 662 00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:01,360 Speaker 1: sweetest guy. He did his work. Um, you know, we 663 00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:04,960 Speaker 1: saw no evidence of this burning hatred inside this man. 664 00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:08,960 Speaker 1: But the one person, the only person they can't locate, 665 00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:12,880 Speaker 1: is Raoul. But that's not surprising because they didn't know 666 00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:15,040 Speaker 1: his last name, they didn't know where he lived, they 667 00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:17,640 Speaker 1: didn't know if Raoul was even his correct first name, 668 00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:22,360 Speaker 1: and Raoul certainly didn't want to be located. So it's 669 00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:26,640 Speaker 1: it's a little difficult to to find this role except 670 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:29,840 Speaker 1: we think we we may have in the podcast and 671 00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:33,040 Speaker 1: and uh, you know, stick with us, because you know, 672 00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:35,360 Speaker 1: there's a certain point where a woman shows up and 673 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:39,360 Speaker 1: said I knew a Raoul back in the day, and 674 00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:42,799 Speaker 1: he kind of acted like he had done something with 675 00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:48,040 Speaker 1: Martin Luther King, and uh so that's one whole episode 676 00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:51,839 Speaker 1: we have, and it's it's a crazy story. There's connections 677 00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:54,640 Speaker 1: that you wouldn't expect, like it's it I I just 678 00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:56,759 Speaker 1: so you know, And so you guys know, I thought 679 00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:59,080 Speaker 1: Rewel was made up. I was like convinced that Raoul 680 00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:02,600 Speaker 1: was made up until I heard some of the stuff 681 00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:05,719 Speaker 1: that we're going to hear in this this episode. But 682 00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:08,840 Speaker 1: I mean the James ro Ray was a notoriously like 683 00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:12,680 Speaker 1: bad liar and not particularly bright, right, I mean, I'm 684 00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:15,839 Speaker 1: not not to character assassinate this guy, but like I mean, 685 00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:19,239 Speaker 1: it's pretty clear like he didn't really know much about guns. 686 00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:21,640 Speaker 1: He went in and kind of like bought whatever gun 687 00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:23,680 Speaker 1: the gun owner gun store guy told him too, and 688 00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:26,080 Speaker 1: then came back and returned it. And that was suspicious 689 00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:28,440 Speaker 1: all at the behest of this guy raul Um. But 690 00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:30,400 Speaker 1: then you know, your Raoul kind of ends up being 691 00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:33,200 Speaker 1: an inconvenient lead if you can't really trace him down, 692 00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:35,399 Speaker 1: it's easier to wrap it all up in Ray, who's 693 00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:37,200 Speaker 1: like your bird in the hand, rather than like go 694 00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:41,160 Speaker 1: chase this mythical you know, bird in the bush. But 695 00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:44,680 Speaker 1: I still don't understand the intent. If Raoul represented some 696 00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:48,680 Speaker 1: sort of shadowy group that was trying to assassinate uh MLK, 697 00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:51,719 Speaker 1: is it some kind of anarchist bent like this, like 698 00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:54,800 Speaker 1: to cause a race war or like like what what what? 699 00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:57,440 Speaker 1: In your opinion, based on everything that you know, would 700 00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:00,520 Speaker 1: the intent be behind such an assassination. I think there 701 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:04,400 Speaker 1: was a mistrust and hatred towards King that was shared 702 00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:08,680 Speaker 1: by a number of powerful groups, including the National Police Force, 703 00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:13,000 Speaker 1: under j Edgar Hoover, including organized crime under Carlos Marcello 704 00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:20,080 Speaker 1: and UH police organizations. UH particularly we're not fond of this, 705 00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:22,880 Speaker 1: this guy who was shaking, especially in the South where 706 00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:26,279 Speaker 1: you know, the garbagemen were on strike, and and King 707 00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:28,239 Speaker 1: was a guy that was, you know, doing all this 708 00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:32,160 Speaker 1: rattle rousing. There was a very large collection of people 709 00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:36,920 Speaker 1: who felt a burning hatred towards King. And not only that, 710 00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:40,600 Speaker 1: and I think this is the clincher, is that there 711 00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:42,440 Speaker 1: was a great deal of money being made in the 712 00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:44,680 Speaker 1: war in Vietnam, and there were a lot of people 713 00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:47,200 Speaker 1: invested in that, and then King was the one who 714 00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:51,040 Speaker 1: was coming out and saying this was wrong. And it 715 00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:53,560 Speaker 1: was starting to work its way down into the troops, 716 00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:56,880 Speaker 1: and their black troops were starting not to obey their officers. 717 00:40:56,880 --> 00:41:01,480 Speaker 1: There were cases of fragging um and there were people who, 718 00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:05,560 Speaker 1: very much to their inner soul, believe that Martin Luther 719 00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:08,239 Speaker 1: King was a trader to this nation. They believe that. 720 00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:10,719 Speaker 1: And when you believe that someone is a traitor to 721 00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:13,800 Speaker 1: the nation and you have the power to kill them, 722 00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:16,239 Speaker 1: you just might do it. And I think that's where 723 00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:19,800 Speaker 1: I think that's where all this leads the greater good argument, 724 00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:23,799 Speaker 1: right tail as old as time. Unfortunately, Uh, there is 725 00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:27,279 Speaker 1: just just a how is keeping note for anyone unfamiliar 726 00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:31,200 Speaker 1: with the term, uh fragging, it would could you tell 727 00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:33,319 Speaker 1: us just a little bit about what fragging was During 728 00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:38,200 Speaker 1: the Vietnam War. It was a way that common soldiers 729 00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:41,600 Speaker 1: could get back at officers who they didn't like or 730 00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:44,520 Speaker 1: who had done things to them, uh in one way 731 00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:47,800 Speaker 1: or another. And you're in a firefight, uh somewhere and 732 00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:50,279 Speaker 1: your officers up there, and you've got a gun, and 733 00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:52,840 Speaker 1: you're shooting a gun, and you just happen to shoot 734 00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:56,840 Speaker 1: the officer you don't like. Uh. And there were I 735 00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:00,160 Speaker 1: don't know how many documented cases of that there were, 736 00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:04,480 Speaker 1: but it was enough. I mean it did happen, so 737 00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:09,399 Speaker 1: and and there were you know, when the racial thing 738 00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:12,319 Speaker 1: got in, you know, introduced, and when Martin Luther King 739 00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:14,880 Speaker 1: was saying, what are you doing there? And all of 740 00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:17,920 Speaker 1: a sudden, these young black men sort of woke up 741 00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:20,600 Speaker 1: and realizing, I'm fighting the white man's war. Why am 742 00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:22,600 Speaker 1: I here? Why am I fighting for the rights of 743 00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:25,720 Speaker 1: Vietnamese when I don't even have rights back in Georgia, 744 00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:28,840 Speaker 1: When I don't have rights in Chicago, you know, And 745 00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:32,720 Speaker 1: so there was that whole line, and I personally think 746 00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:36,560 Speaker 1: that that was probably the strongest reason behind the murder 747 00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:39,760 Speaker 1: of King. But it involved a lot of different people 748 00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:43,040 Speaker 1: who were happy to look the other way. Whoever pulled 749 00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:46,399 Speaker 1: it off knew that they could do so without any 750 00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:50,399 Speaker 1: trouble from the FBI. You know, the group effort. Yeah, 751 00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:53,000 Speaker 1: the group effort. Just so, even if even if the 752 00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:57,880 Speaker 1: FBI or factions thereof were not directly involved, the picture 753 00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:02,359 Speaker 1: that is painted an inaccurate picture, I would argue, is 754 00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:06,719 Speaker 1: one of a large number or a small number of 755 00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:12,920 Speaker 1: large powerful interests who wouldn't be heartbroken if this threat 756 00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:15,840 Speaker 1: to the status quo was to be taken off the board. 757 00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:19,759 Speaker 1: Would you agree with that estimation? If not conspiracy of 758 00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:24,640 Speaker 1: multiple players, would you agree that there were many institutions 759 00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:30,800 Speaker 1: in the mix who were just happy to have him gone. Well, yes, 760 00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:35,160 Speaker 1: I think that's that's true. And the same could be 761 00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:38,400 Speaker 1: said for uh John Kennedy and the same could be 762 00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:41,560 Speaker 1: said for Bobby Kennedy. That there were enough people that 763 00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:45,040 Speaker 1: were happy to have them gone that they could put 764 00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:49,000 Speaker 1: a phony warrent commission together and uh, you know, to 765 00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:53,520 Speaker 1: cover up what I mean, the evidence of conspiracy and 766 00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:55,319 Speaker 1: the John Kennedy and I know we're going a little 767 00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:59,000 Speaker 1: off you know, topic here, but uh, the evidence of 768 00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:02,879 Speaker 1: conspiracy there is like you know, you you go into 769 00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:06,239 Speaker 1: an apartment that's been burglarized and you walk in and 770 00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:08,200 Speaker 1: you know, it's underwear all over the room, The whole 771 00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:10,919 Speaker 1: place is a mess. You know that you've been burglarized. Well, 772 00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:13,560 Speaker 1: that's what the murder of John Kennedy was like. The 773 00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:16,839 Speaker 1: evidence of it is all over the place. It got 774 00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:18,799 Speaker 1: a little neater when it came to Martin, Luther King 775 00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:23,080 Speaker 1: and Bobby, but uh, the uh, yes, there were a 776 00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:26,160 Speaker 1: lot of people who could be relied upon not to 777 00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:30,160 Speaker 1: make trouble. They weren't necessarily involved, but you knew that 778 00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:32,520 Speaker 1: they weren't going to make up trouble for you. That 779 00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:35,000 Speaker 1: meant a lot of different things could happen, and a 780 00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:37,640 Speaker 1: lot of different things did happen. Okay, we're gonna take 781 00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:40,200 Speaker 1: a quick pause to hear a word from our sponsor 782 00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:49,520 Speaker 1: and then we'll be back with more from Bill. And 783 00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:52,479 Speaker 1: we've returned, Bill, I want to just talk a little 784 00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:56,400 Speaker 1: bit about some of the people you created new interviews 785 00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:59,400 Speaker 1: with for this show. So this isn't you know, just 786 00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:02,680 Speaker 1: archive tapes that are being presented. You you spoke to 787 00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:05,279 Speaker 1: people who were there, You spoke to people who are 788 00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:09,200 Speaker 1: still living who have stories to tell. And in episode two, 789 00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:11,879 Speaker 1: you speak with Reverend James Lawson, and I just want 790 00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:14,440 Speaker 1: to hear in your words, Uh, what are some of 791 00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:18,319 Speaker 1: the strange things that occurred right before Martin Luther King 792 00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:21,400 Speaker 1: was assassinated. I talked to Reverend Lawson. He is one 793 00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:24,040 Speaker 1: of the giants in the civil rights movement. He would 794 00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:27,680 Speaker 1: you know John Lewis we lost this year. Uh. Reverend 795 00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:31,319 Speaker 1: Lawson was the mentor for John Lewis. Uh. And he 796 00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:34,600 Speaker 1: organized the lunch counter sit ins in Nashville. And he 797 00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:37,600 Speaker 1: was one of the founders of snick uh. And I 798 00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:40,160 Speaker 1: mean he's and he was a good friend of Martin 799 00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:42,560 Speaker 1: Luther King. Uh. And he was the one who brought 800 00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:45,799 Speaker 1: King to Memphis to help with the sanitation strike. And 801 00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:47,960 Speaker 1: he was there. And when after King was killed, he 802 00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:52,719 Speaker 1: went around the city trying to calm the black populations 803 00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:54,720 Speaker 1: just because he just didn't want to see more riots. 804 00:45:54,760 --> 00:46:00,800 Speaker 1: And also he got three days after King was killed, Uh, 805 00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:03,480 Speaker 1: he got a package in the mail that had a 806 00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:06,359 Speaker 1: bullet taped to a card that said, we have one 807 00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:09,719 Speaker 1: of these for you too, n word preacher. I assumed 808 00:46:09,719 --> 00:46:13,000 Speaker 1: that James ol Ray, on his flight to Canada or something, 809 00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:16,920 Speaker 1: didn't have time to uh send a bullet to James Lawson. 810 00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:21,160 Speaker 1: But yeah, when when I talked to Lawson, uh, he 811 00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:25,320 Speaker 1: spoke of a number of things that that uh really 812 00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:28,719 Speaker 1: bothered him, that he noticed either before the murder or 813 00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:31,880 Speaker 1: after the murder. And uh you know, one of them 814 00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:34,720 Speaker 1: was that there were two firemen in the firehouse across 815 00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:38,160 Speaker 1: the street from the Lorraine Motel. Those two firemen were 816 00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:41,359 Speaker 1: told the day before the murder to report to uh 817 00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:47,320 Speaker 1: different uh fire stations. Um, and so they were gone. Um. 818 00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:52,920 Speaker 1: There was there was Ed Redditt, who was a police 819 00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:58,680 Speaker 1: detective who was surveiling King at the Lorraine. It wasn't 820 00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:01,160 Speaker 1: a nice job. It wasn't that he protecting King. He 821 00:47:01,239 --> 00:47:03,520 Speaker 1: was just keeping a list of who was coming and going. 822 00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:07,000 Speaker 1: And it was his job because he was black and 823 00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:09,759 Speaker 1: he knew who those people were, so that's why he 824 00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:13,000 Speaker 1: was doing it. Two hours before the murder, he is 825 00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:17,240 Speaker 1: told uh to go home, ordered to go home on 826 00:47:17,239 --> 00:47:20,680 Speaker 1: on a trumped up charge. The thing I think Lawson 827 00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:24,680 Speaker 1: was most angry about was uh that when King came 828 00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:27,439 Speaker 1: to the city and other times he had an all 829 00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:31,040 Speaker 1: black police security unit assigned to him, eight or nine 830 00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:34,359 Speaker 1: man unit who guarded him day and night. And for 831 00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:37,239 Speaker 1: some reason, on his last visit, that unit was not 832 00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:41,160 Speaker 1: called the form. And we have uh Captain Jerry Williams 833 00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:45,080 Speaker 1: on tape telling us that you know that that last 834 00:47:45,120 --> 00:47:47,239 Speaker 1: time he came in. I don't know why, but we 835 00:47:47,239 --> 00:47:51,440 Speaker 1: weren't told to form. And so King was stripped of 836 00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:54,640 Speaker 1: his black security guard. There was briefly a four man white, 837 00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:57,640 Speaker 1: all white security guard sent to the Lorraine, but they 838 00:47:57,640 --> 00:48:00,680 Speaker 1: went home at five o'clock, weren't replaced, and they didn't 839 00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:02,680 Speaker 1: come back the next day, which was that day King 840 00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:07,040 Speaker 1: was killed. Now, all that stuff doesn't prove that that 841 00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:11,759 Speaker 1: King was killed by a conspiracy, but it don't look good. Um. 842 00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:16,600 Speaker 1: And uh, you know, and if it was table setting 843 00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:21,440 Speaker 1: for a murder, uh, then the finker of field has 844 00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:23,440 Speaker 1: to point back to the people with the power to 845 00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:26,560 Speaker 1: make those things happen. I mean, it's just as simple 846 00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:31,719 Speaker 1: as that. So um. And there were a bunch of things. Um. 847 00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:35,799 Speaker 1: There was Carthel Whedon who was ahead of the firehouse, 848 00:48:36,080 --> 00:48:39,960 Speaker 1: who testified later on that that day a pair of 849 00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:43,239 Speaker 1: guys with fancy I d s and flashing army. I 850 00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:45,799 Speaker 1: das has to have access to the roof of the 851 00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:48,359 Speaker 1: firehouse and weed and brought them up to the roof 852 00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:51,560 Speaker 1: of the firehouse and let them go there. And he 853 00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:53,600 Speaker 1: was pretty sure they didn't have rifles, but what they 854 00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:57,239 Speaker 1: did have with them was photographic equipment. And they were 855 00:48:57,320 --> 00:49:04,319 Speaker 1: there photographing the Loreen Hotel, motel and the environs around 856 00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:07,600 Speaker 1: there on what just happened to be the day that 857 00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:11,160 Speaker 1: Martin Luther King was shot, you know. And Bill Pepper's 858 00:49:11,239 --> 00:49:15,560 Speaker 1: theory is that they were photographing that so and looking 859 00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:18,320 Speaker 1: at the photographs if they saw anybody who saw something 860 00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:23,040 Speaker 1: that they didn't want seen, um, they would know, um, 861 00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:25,920 Speaker 1: you know who it was, and they would have a record. 862 00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:29,160 Speaker 1: So but anyway, those people have never come forward. They 863 00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:31,120 Speaker 1: never came forward and said, oh yeah, we were the 864 00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:36,600 Speaker 1: photographers that day, um, which you know is highly suspicious. 865 00:49:36,760 --> 00:49:39,400 Speaker 1: So there was a lot of stuff, um. And it 866 00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:42,799 Speaker 1: certainly couldn't be James l. Ray arranging these things because 867 00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:45,600 Speaker 1: he just he just drifts into town in the middle 868 00:49:45,600 --> 00:49:49,000 Speaker 1: of the afternoon and somehow at six o'clock he's able 869 00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:53,080 Speaker 1: to pull off this elaborate murder. These are just exercises 870 00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:57,480 Speaker 1: and scratching the surface of the problems with the official story, 871 00:49:57,600 --> 00:50:03,480 Speaker 1: and there is exclusivity in the MLK tapes. We're learning 872 00:50:04,040 --> 00:50:06,719 Speaker 1: in this journey that you're taking us on, Build, We're 873 00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:12,400 Speaker 1: learning not just the existing discrepancies that people have been 874 00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:15,520 Speaker 1: aware of in some cases for decades, but we're learning 875 00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:19,960 Speaker 1: new information along the way. And this is something you know, Matt, 876 00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:22,239 Speaker 1: you said just as much when you said, you know, 877 00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:25,719 Speaker 1: I thought Raoul was made up and candidly um for 878 00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:29,120 Speaker 1: a long time, I thought the same because there is 879 00:50:29,200 --> 00:50:31,359 Speaker 1: a you know, we don't want to spoil too much, 880 00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:35,560 Speaker 1: but there there are moments where it seems that because 881 00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:40,480 Speaker 1: James Earl Ray is an unreliable narrator at times, a 882 00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:45,440 Speaker 1: lot of what he says has to necessarily be scrutinized. Um. 883 00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:48,200 Speaker 1: And with this idea of scrutiny, I have I have 884 00:50:48,320 --> 00:50:50,920 Speaker 1: one big question that I'd love to hear the answer 885 00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:56,080 Speaker 1: for in your own words, Built, What does the MLK tapes? 886 00:50:56,160 --> 00:50:59,960 Speaker 1: What does this investigation and the events that it covers, 887 00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:03,000 Speaker 1: what do they teach us in the modern day? What 888 00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:07,680 Speaker 1: are lessons people can take away from this? I would 889 00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:11,719 Speaker 1: this assassination that you know honestly, many many people in 890 00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:16,360 Speaker 1: the US consider unsolved today. Well, you know there's a 891 00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:20,600 Speaker 1: song in Porgian best by Gershwin it's uh it ain't 892 00:51:20,600 --> 00:51:23,919 Speaker 1: necessarily so. And the things that you're liable to reading 893 00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:28,000 Speaker 1: the Bible, it ain't necessarily so. And I would say 894 00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:33,160 Speaker 1: that's the takeaway, Um, that is important to look behind, 895 00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:37,200 Speaker 1: to pay attention to the details when things happen. And 896 00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:39,879 Speaker 1: you know, if if you're going to be fooled by 897 00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:42,080 Speaker 1: the things that they just sort of throw out there 898 00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:46,120 Speaker 1: for you, uh, you know you're going to be fooled 899 00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:49,800 Speaker 1: a lot of time. So um, you know, just beyond garden. 900 00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:53,120 Speaker 1: You know, especially with the Internet these days, Uh, there's 901 00:51:53,120 --> 00:51:55,640 Speaker 1: a lot of stuff out there that isn't true, and 902 00:51:55,680 --> 00:51:58,480 Speaker 1: it's you know, it can be hard to to you know, 903 00:51:58,560 --> 00:52:01,279 Speaker 1: pick through it and know what's what isn't I was 904 00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:03,719 Speaker 1: gonna ask if you do you have any advice on 905 00:52:03,760 --> 00:52:05,960 Speaker 1: that realm, because that's really what we try and try 906 00:52:05,960 --> 00:52:08,839 Speaker 1: and do on the show, sift through the stuff, you know, 907 00:52:09,239 --> 00:52:12,680 Speaker 1: the actual small truths that exist within the noise. But 908 00:52:12,719 --> 00:52:14,560 Speaker 1: you've been doing this for a long time, Bill, is 909 00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:17,840 Speaker 1: there any trick to it? No, there's no trick to 910 00:52:17,920 --> 00:52:21,319 Speaker 1: it um there's In fact, I'm not very good at 911 00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:24,200 Speaker 1: it because this whole internet thing is you know, brand 912 00:52:24,320 --> 00:52:26,200 Speaker 1: new to me. When I was growing up. And you 913 00:52:26,239 --> 00:52:28,560 Speaker 1: want to make a telephone call, you didn't dial, you 914 00:52:28,560 --> 00:52:30,840 Speaker 1: didn't punch any numbers, You just told the operator of 915 00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:32,680 Speaker 1: the number you wanted to call. But but but I 916 00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:34,799 Speaker 1: think what Matt that's to do is like beyond the technology. 917 00:52:34,840 --> 00:52:36,680 Speaker 1: I mean, it's about sort of like a frame of mind, 918 00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:39,759 Speaker 1: like when you're approaching these types of stories, like is 919 00:52:39,760 --> 00:52:42,680 Speaker 1: there anything that you have learned over the years as 920 00:52:42,719 --> 00:52:45,560 Speaker 1: to how to kind of clear your mind so that 921 00:52:45,600 --> 00:52:48,920 Speaker 1: you cannot be influenced by all the noise or is 922 00:52:48,960 --> 00:52:51,160 Speaker 1: it just something that kind of you learned just through experience. 923 00:52:51,880 --> 00:52:54,880 Speaker 1: There's a role for common sense to play. And you 924 00:52:54,920 --> 00:53:00,400 Speaker 1: guys were relating to it before. You're just saying Jesus guy, hey, 925 00:53:00,440 --> 00:53:02,719 Speaker 1: you know he's a bungler and all this stuff and 926 00:53:03,040 --> 00:53:07,680 Speaker 1: somehow and and that was I was, you know what 927 00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:10,520 Speaker 1: I I mentioned before that I listened to King's speech 928 00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:14,520 Speaker 1: of the Riverside Church on Vietnam and it was so 929 00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:20,160 Speaker 1: powerful and so intelligent. So it was such moral authority. 930 00:53:20,239 --> 00:53:23,839 Speaker 1: And then they thought and this bumbler of James ol 931 00:53:23,960 --> 00:53:26,880 Speaker 1: Ray was the one who killed him. You know, those 932 00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:30,640 Speaker 1: things just didn't go together. It's like, No, he was 933 00:53:30,719 --> 00:53:33,560 Speaker 1: killed for an important reason, and the important reason was 934 00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:37,319 Speaker 1: the power of his words. And it wasn't because some 935 00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:42,520 Speaker 1: guy that grew up in southern Indiana just hated black 936 00:53:42,520 --> 00:53:45,440 Speaker 1: people so much that he had to kill king. So 937 00:53:45,520 --> 00:53:48,759 Speaker 1: I guess I guess the answer to that. Your question is, uh, 938 00:53:49,160 --> 00:53:52,359 Speaker 1: some amount of common sense. Uh, it goes a long way. 939 00:53:52,640 --> 00:53:56,080 Speaker 1: But wouldn't you say that there oftentimes isn't a profound 940 00:53:56,160 --> 00:53:59,359 Speaker 1: reason that important people are killed and don't like, look 941 00:53:59,360 --> 00:54:01,479 Speaker 1: at John Lennon, he was killed by a crazy fan, 942 00:54:01,960 --> 00:54:06,040 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, or sometimes people just get killed 943 00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:09,160 Speaker 1: by crazy people. You know, I mean, I understand this situation. 944 00:54:09,160 --> 00:54:10,920 Speaker 1: I don't think that's what's happening. But how do you 945 00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:14,600 Speaker 1: kind of reconcile those things and not be influenced, um, 946 00:54:14,640 --> 00:54:19,560 Speaker 1: you know, or not be overly looking for profoundness where 947 00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:22,480 Speaker 1: maybe none exists in other types of cases. Maybe, Oh, 948 00:54:22,640 --> 00:54:25,799 Speaker 1: I'm not so sure that John Lennon wasn't murdered by 949 00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:29,120 Speaker 1: someone other than just a crazy guy. And the same 950 00:54:29,120 --> 00:54:32,640 Speaker 1: thing with ALERD. Lowenstein, who is a congressman in New 951 00:54:32,719 --> 00:54:35,720 Speaker 1: York and who was looking into the Bobby Kennedy murder. 952 00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:39,799 Speaker 1: And and some guy shows up and shoots him. Uh 953 00:54:39,920 --> 00:54:43,320 Speaker 1: and you know I worked enough in the Surrand case. 954 00:54:43,960 --> 00:54:49,680 Speaker 1: Uh that. Um, they were there were people at that time. 955 00:54:49,760 --> 00:54:52,680 Speaker 1: It's there were federal programs where they were looking how 956 00:54:52,719 --> 00:54:57,120 Speaker 1: to create robot assassins. It's it's known, it's it did happen, 957 00:54:57,280 --> 00:55:01,120 Speaker 1: MK Ultra And uh so you know if you can, 958 00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:05,080 Speaker 1: you know, work on people and mess around with their 959 00:55:05,080 --> 00:55:08,680 Speaker 1: mind enough to okay, you know you're gonna go shoot 960 00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:13,200 Speaker 1: John Lennon. Um that. And John Lennon was not a 961 00:55:13,239 --> 00:55:16,600 Speaker 1: popular guy for the official people. They were trying to 962 00:55:16,640 --> 00:55:20,279 Speaker 1: get rid of him for years. UM So, Uh, I 963 00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:22,640 Speaker 1: don't know what happened there. I have no special knowledge 964 00:55:22,640 --> 00:55:26,000 Speaker 1: of that. But h I when something happens like that, 965 00:55:26,160 --> 00:55:29,160 Speaker 1: I don't automatically think, oh, it's just some crazy guy, 966 00:55:29,200 --> 00:55:32,759 Speaker 1: because we have too many murders by just some crazy guy. 967 00:55:33,360 --> 00:55:36,959 Speaker 1: Um And from what I know, you know a bunch 968 00:55:37,000 --> 00:55:42,040 Speaker 1: of them. There are phony official stories. Yeah, and we've 969 00:55:42,080 --> 00:55:44,759 Speaker 1: already we've already thrown out a couple of things that 970 00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:49,040 Speaker 1: are going to send people down a rabbit hole today 971 00:55:49,160 --> 00:55:54,439 Speaker 1: Uh Dennis Sweeney, who was the who was the trigger man, right, 972 00:55:54,719 --> 00:55:58,680 Speaker 1: Hilo Instein, Uh, Sir Hallan Sir Han, as we've mentioned earlier, 973 00:55:58,960 --> 00:56:03,840 Speaker 1: is also tech nickle up for parole. As we record today, 974 00:56:04,800 --> 00:56:09,520 Speaker 1: history continues even after the headlines have left the newspapers 975 00:56:09,719 --> 00:56:12,480 Speaker 1: and the and the evening news, and that's one of 976 00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:17,400 Speaker 1: the things that is crucial to remember. And Bill again, 977 00:56:17,480 --> 00:56:19,560 Speaker 1: we want to thank you so much, not just for 978 00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:21,880 Speaker 1: your time with us and stuff they want you to 979 00:56:21,960 --> 00:56:27,120 Speaker 1: know today, but perhaps more importantly for the time and 980 00:56:27,160 --> 00:56:31,680 Speaker 1: the energy that you have put in to the MLK tapes. 981 00:56:32,080 --> 00:56:35,760 Speaker 1: Peep behind the curtains, folks. Uh. Matt is an EP 982 00:56:36,200 --> 00:56:40,920 Speaker 1: on this project. Nolan, I do not have secret access. 983 00:56:41,160 --> 00:56:42,920 Speaker 1: We got a little bit of a sneak peak, but 984 00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:45,880 Speaker 1: we are on the journey with you, and so as 985 00:56:46,239 --> 00:56:49,479 Speaker 1: as colleagues and and listeners and fans of the show, Bill, 986 00:56:49,960 --> 00:56:53,080 Speaker 1: we're hoping maybe you could just give us a quick 987 00:56:53,160 --> 00:56:56,000 Speaker 1: laundry list of some of the other characters that people 988 00:56:56,040 --> 00:57:00,360 Speaker 1: will meet in the course of the MLK tapes. Um, 989 00:57:02,200 --> 00:57:04,399 Speaker 1: you know, one of my favorites is just coming up. 990 00:57:04,440 --> 00:57:07,759 Speaker 1: And then that's Art Haynes Jr. Who was uh Uh 991 00:57:08,080 --> 00:57:11,440 Speaker 1: James el Ray's first attorney along with his father. And 992 00:57:11,600 --> 00:57:13,880 Speaker 1: a smart guy, a really, really, really smart guy. He 993 00:57:13,920 --> 00:57:17,200 Speaker 1: went to Princeton, graduated from law school, and he's out 994 00:57:17,200 --> 00:57:18,840 Speaker 1: of law school for two months and all of a 995 00:57:18,880 --> 00:57:21,920 Speaker 1: sudden he is representing the man accused of killing Martin 996 00:57:22,000 --> 00:57:24,840 Speaker 1: Luther King. I mean, his head must have been spinning. 997 00:57:25,240 --> 00:57:30,560 Speaker 1: But uh, he just gave us a really great interview 998 00:57:30,560 --> 00:57:34,120 Speaker 1: in Birmingham and he's still still practicing law to this day. 999 00:57:34,680 --> 00:57:38,520 Speaker 1: And uh, he's a he's a man of great conscience 1000 00:57:38,520 --> 00:57:41,400 Speaker 1: and he he he was a judge in Alabama. He's 1001 00:57:41,680 --> 00:57:44,880 Speaker 1: uh for twenty years and he was appointed by George Wallace. 1002 00:57:45,280 --> 00:57:48,760 Speaker 1: He is not a flaming liberal by any means, and 1003 00:57:48,800 --> 00:57:50,960 Speaker 1: not at all, but he loves the law, and he 1004 00:57:51,040 --> 00:57:53,960 Speaker 1: loves the truth. He respects the truth, and he's not 1005 00:57:54,080 --> 00:57:58,160 Speaker 1: afraid to speak out about what he saw as James 1006 00:57:58,160 --> 00:58:02,000 Speaker 1: old Rays attorney and what he discuss covered, um and so. 1007 00:58:02,720 --> 00:58:04,520 Speaker 1: And he's got a great sense of humor and he 1008 00:58:04,560 --> 00:58:07,120 Speaker 1: tells a really good story. So there's a bunch of 1009 00:58:07,120 --> 00:58:09,720 Speaker 1: funny stories that he tells that I love. Anyway, Um, 1010 00:58:09,840 --> 00:58:12,520 Speaker 1: he's he's one of the people that is coming up. 1011 00:58:12,920 --> 00:58:15,440 Speaker 1: We got judge Joe Brown, who had his own TV 1012 00:58:15,560 --> 00:58:19,120 Speaker 1: show for fifteen or sixteen years, but before he was 1013 00:58:19,160 --> 00:58:22,760 Speaker 1: a TV judge, he was a real judge in in UH, Tennessee. 1014 00:58:23,240 --> 00:58:27,800 Speaker 1: And Pepper's attempt to open reopened the the James el 1015 00:58:27,880 --> 00:58:31,920 Speaker 1: Ray case UH landed in his courtroom and it bounced 1016 00:58:31,960 --> 00:58:34,280 Speaker 1: around there for a year and a half or two years. 1017 00:58:34,840 --> 00:58:38,960 Speaker 1: It was a very messy thing. But Joe Brown is 1018 00:58:39,080 --> 00:58:42,840 Speaker 1: a ballistics expert, a gun expert, a gun lover, and 1019 00:58:43,240 --> 00:58:46,080 Speaker 1: he had a chance to look at the case and 1020 00:58:46,600 --> 00:58:49,360 Speaker 1: examine the gun and the evidence around the gun, the 1021 00:58:49,360 --> 00:58:54,400 Speaker 1: ballistics and the bullets, and he is utterly convinced that 1022 00:58:54,640 --> 00:58:58,720 Speaker 1: the throwdown rep and the weapon that had raised fingerprints 1023 00:58:58,720 --> 00:59:01,760 Speaker 1: on it was not the murder weapon. Um. And he's 1024 00:59:01,800 --> 00:59:03,919 Speaker 1: a funny guy. I mean, he's he's got a great 1025 00:59:03,920 --> 00:59:07,720 Speaker 1: sense of humor also and tells wonderful stories about what 1026 00:59:07,760 --> 00:59:10,720 Speaker 1: it was like to be black in the legal system 1027 00:59:10,720 --> 00:59:14,600 Speaker 1: in the early days in Memphis. So there's there's Joe Brown, 1028 00:59:15,480 --> 00:59:19,560 Speaker 1: gosh it goes on. There's Glenda Grabo that comes along 1029 00:59:19,600 --> 00:59:22,680 Speaker 1: and tells an incredible story about Raoul. And the thing 1030 00:59:22,720 --> 00:59:25,200 Speaker 1: about that story that I love the most is that 1031 00:59:25,280 --> 00:59:28,800 Speaker 1: she also ended up working for Percy Foreman raise uh 1032 00:59:28,960 --> 00:59:34,320 Speaker 1: so called attorney who also apparently knew Raoul Um. I mean, 1033 00:59:34,640 --> 00:59:38,880 Speaker 1: that's bizarre as can be. Uh And I think we 1034 00:59:38,880 --> 00:59:40,919 Speaker 1: don't want to give it too much away, but yes, 1035 00:59:41,080 --> 00:59:47,280 Speaker 1: that's what's coming. And with that we are drawing today's 1036 00:59:47,680 --> 00:59:53,400 Speaker 1: interview to a close. The MLK tapes are available as 1037 00:59:53,440 --> 00:59:57,000 Speaker 1: you listen to today's episode wherever you find your favorite 1038 00:59:57,000 --> 01:00:00,640 Speaker 1: shows and for more information, please do check out MLK 1039 01:00:00,880 --> 01:00:04,240 Speaker 1: tapes dot com. Once again, thank you so much for 1040 01:00:04,320 --> 01:00:08,000 Speaker 1: your time, Bill Klaibur. We cannot wait to see how 1041 01:00:08,040 --> 01:00:12,080 Speaker 1: this story at unfolds and we, along with the rest 1042 01:00:12,080 --> 01:00:15,800 Speaker 1: of the audience except maybe Matt right now, are listening 1043 01:00:15,920 --> 01:00:23,600 Speaker 1: along with you to story. Matt's always listening. Thanks guys. 1044 01:00:23,720 --> 01:00:26,480 Speaker 1: It's been been a real pleasure being here. I've had 1045 01:00:26,800 --> 01:00:30,400 Speaker 1: I've had fun. What do you think, fellow conspiracy realists? 1046 01:00:30,520 --> 01:00:34,560 Speaker 1: Do you like a dwindle a number of people in 1047 01:00:34,560 --> 01:00:38,560 Speaker 1: the US today believe the official narrative behind the m 1048 01:00:38,760 --> 01:00:42,440 Speaker 1: l K assassination or do you think there are more questions? 1049 01:00:42,600 --> 01:00:44,440 Speaker 1: We'd love to hear your thoughts. We try to be 1050 01:00:44,520 --> 01:00:47,400 Speaker 1: easy to find online. Catch us on the internet. We 1051 01:00:47,480 --> 01:00:52,480 Speaker 1: are available in the usual places of note, Facebook, Twitter, YouTube. 1052 01:00:52,520 --> 01:00:55,400 Speaker 1: We exist there under the handle at Conspiracy Stuff Show. 1053 01:00:55,440 --> 01:00:56,880 Speaker 1: If you'd like to find us on Instagram, you can 1054 01:00:56,880 --> 01:00:59,360 Speaker 1: find us at conspiracy stuff. If you'd like to find 1055 01:00:59,440 --> 01:01:01,840 Speaker 1: us on instag time, you can find us at Conspiracy 1056 01:01:01,920 --> 01:01:05,520 Speaker 1: Stuff Show. Or give us a telephone call. That's right, 1057 01:01:05,720 --> 01:01:08,880 Speaker 1: use your phone for its intended purpose. Call one eight 1058 01:01:09,000 --> 01:01:12,760 Speaker 1: three three st d w y t K. You can 1059 01:01:13,000 --> 01:01:16,440 Speaker 1: give yourself a cool nickname, leave a message. We started 1060 01:01:16,480 --> 01:01:19,240 Speaker 1: saving your nicknames in our system. By the way, so 1061 01:01:19,360 --> 01:01:23,880 Speaker 1: every time more broccoli calls, we know uh, add your 1062 01:01:23,960 --> 01:01:26,280 Speaker 1: name to the list. That's what I'm saying. You've got 1063 01:01:26,280 --> 01:01:28,640 Speaker 1: three minutes say whatever you wish. If three minutes is 1064 01:01:28,680 --> 01:01:31,880 Speaker 1: not enough time, instead consider sending us a good old 1065 01:01:31,880 --> 01:01:55,040 Speaker 1: fashioned email. We are conspiracy at i heart radio dot com. 1066 01:01:55,160 --> 01:01:57,240 Speaker 1: Stuff they don't want you to know is a production 1067 01:01:57,320 --> 01:02:00,440 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my heart Radio, 1068 01:02:00,560 --> 01:02:03,400 Speaker 1: visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 1069 01:02:03,480 --> 01:02:04,760 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.