WEBVTT - Food Addiction is Solvable 0:00:15.076 --> 0:00:23.996 Pushkin, this is solvable. I'm Ronald Young Jr. Is it 0:00:24.076 --> 0:00:27.756 really fair to compare you twinkies and Oreo cookies with 0:00:27.956 --> 0:00:33.276 cigarettes and alcohol and even some drugs. Food is delicious, nutritious, 0:00:33.316 --> 0:00:38.316 and sometimes controversial, whether it's less red meat, more vegetables, 0:00:38.436 --> 0:00:44.836 or dairy alternatives. Dietitians, nutritionists, doctors, trainers, chefs, and foodies 0:00:44.996 --> 0:00:48.236 all have an opinion on what we should and should 0:00:48.356 --> 0:00:51.276 not be putting into our bodies. At times, it could 0:00:51.316 --> 0:00:54.196 feel difficult to know what is the right decision when 0:00:54.236 --> 0:00:57.356 it comes to our eating habits. It's not our fault. 0:00:57.436 --> 0:01:01.316 This is not on us. These products are engineered in 0:01:01.356 --> 0:01:05.556 a way that's designed to get us to lose control. 0:01:06.036 --> 0:01:08.636 We live in an age where what we're consuming has 0:01:08.716 --> 0:01:12.196 changed beyond the necessity of survival, and in most ways 0:01:12.236 --> 0:01:15.956 those changes are intentional. We've grown up to see these 0:01:15.996 --> 0:01:20.676 food products as being full of cartoon characters and joy 0:01:20.716 --> 0:01:24.036 and happiness. So, I mean, can you imagine there being 0:01:24.076 --> 0:01:29.116 like a march through the streets of Brooklyn protesting Oreo cookies. 0:01:29.596 --> 0:01:33.516 Michael Moss is a Pulitzer Prize winning investigative journalist and 0:01:33.636 --> 0:01:38.156 New York Times best selling author Our overdependence on process food, 0:01:38.156 --> 0:01:42.636 which has this incredible hidden cost, can be solved by 0:01:42.756 --> 0:01:49.036 our reclaiming food for ourselves. I'm excited to talk to 0:01:49.076 --> 0:01:51.596 you because we're going to a place where people are 0:01:51.596 --> 0:01:55.156 trying to lose the quarantine fifteen after, you know, kind 0:01:55.156 --> 0:01:59.876 of eating whatever over the lockdown months, and people's relationship 0:02:00.076 --> 0:02:03.636 with food right now is probably at a very pivotal moment. 0:02:04.036 --> 0:02:07.356 So one thing as someone who like I've struggled both 0:02:07.396 --> 0:02:10.636 with weight probably most of my life, and my relationship 0:02:10.676 --> 0:02:14.036 with food, and I also struggled with the idea of 0:02:14.156 --> 0:02:18.396 food addiction, as it feels impossible to be addicted to 0:02:18.436 --> 0:02:21.036 something that your body needs. And you talk about this 0:02:21.116 --> 0:02:23.676 in your book Hook Yes. So being addicted to food 0:02:23.796 --> 0:02:27.276 was a really good thing for most of our existence, 0:02:27.396 --> 0:02:31.116 or forbears, putting on body fat was a really good 0:02:31.156 --> 0:02:33.516 thing because it enabled our brains to grow and enable 0:02:33.516 --> 0:02:36.076 to stink of your hard times and have more offspring, 0:02:36.116 --> 0:02:38.236 which is kind of what life is all about, right. 0:02:38.956 --> 0:02:42.996 But the problem is the nature of our food was 0:02:43.156 --> 0:02:46.196 changed so dramatically by the food companies in the last 0:02:46.236 --> 0:02:49.156 fifty years that's suddenly what was really good for us 0:02:49.236 --> 0:02:52.876 became really problematic. How would you define addiction and why 0:02:52.916 --> 0:02:55.676 food can be addictive despite us having to eat to live. 0:02:56.436 --> 0:02:59.956 I spent time with evolutionary biologists for this book because 0:02:59.996 --> 0:03:02.556 I was really kind of trying to figure out is 0:03:02.956 --> 0:03:06.076 addiction really kind of the right word, and is it 0:03:06.156 --> 0:03:09.916 really fair to compare you twinkies and or cookies? Was 0:03:10.036 --> 0:03:14.796 cigarettes and alcohol and even some drugs, And so spending 0:03:14.916 --> 0:03:18.916 time though with these biologists, I came full circle and 0:03:18.956 --> 0:03:20.956 now I'm convinced that in any way these food products 0:03:20.956 --> 0:03:26.356 are even more problematic. There is some predecedens to the 0:03:26.356 --> 0:03:31.476 food industry called the tobacco industry. For decades it vehemently 0:03:31.556 --> 0:03:33.836 denied that smoking was addictive, right to put all its 0:03:33.876 --> 0:03:37.196 scientists who work on that, and it's it's lobbyists and 0:03:37.236 --> 0:03:41.836 it stops SEO officials and etc. Well, in two thousands, 0:03:41.876 --> 0:03:46.116 something really fascinating happened, which is that Philip Morris completely 0:03:46.156 --> 0:03:49.716 flipped around and said, Okay, you got us, smoking is 0:03:49.916 --> 0:03:52.716 in fact addictive or throwing in the towel on that. 0:03:52.796 --> 0:03:55.236 What was so interesting about that for me is that 0:03:55.356 --> 0:03:58.756 Philip Morris at the time was also the single largest 0:03:58.796 --> 0:04:02.556 manufacturer of process food through its purchase of the old 0:04:02.556 --> 0:04:06.316 company General Foods, and then Craft and then Nabisco, which 0:04:06.356 --> 0:04:10.076 made Oreo cookies, And that same year, the CEO of 0:04:10.076 --> 0:04:14.076 the company was asked to define addiction in some legal 0:04:14.116 --> 0:04:18.556 proceedings and he says, well, addiction is a repetitive behavior 0:04:18.956 --> 0:04:23.716 that some people find difficult to quit. And I thought 0:04:23.716 --> 0:04:27.036 that was so perfect a because it's in line with 0:04:27.516 --> 0:04:30.756 what scientists and experts think of as addiction these days. 0:04:30.996 --> 0:04:34.916 But I also loved the words some there because addiction 0:04:35.156 --> 0:04:38.876 happens on a spectrum, so it can affect us differently 0:04:38.876 --> 0:04:41.316 as people. It confect us different times of our lives, 0:04:41.356 --> 0:04:44.676 different times of the day. So I thought that definition 0:04:44.716 --> 0:04:47.596 by Philip Morris, arguably one of the biggest experts on 0:04:47.636 --> 0:04:50.956 addiction in the world, was totally apted. So I used 0:04:50.996 --> 0:04:54.196 that throughout the book in terms of talking about addiction 0:04:54.236 --> 0:04:56.796 and looking at these products and what these companies do 0:04:57.436 --> 0:05:01.676 to maximize the seductive power of their product. Why is 0:05:01.716 --> 0:05:03.836 it that our brains and bodies are wired to crave 0:05:04.076 --> 0:05:07.556 certain foods if those foods aren't helpful to us. That's 0:05:07.636 --> 0:05:09.996 kind of one of the biggest mystery. He's still out there. 0:05:10.036 --> 0:05:13.716 I mean, there's some thought the brain looks at sugar 0:05:13.796 --> 0:05:17.836 as calories for young growing bodies. And you know, when 0:05:17.836 --> 0:05:20.556 we were living on the planes and hunter gatherer societies, 0:05:20.716 --> 0:05:22.796 sugar was kind of a rare thing, and so you 0:05:22.796 --> 0:05:24.996 can kind of see how we might have gotten attracted 0:05:25.316 --> 0:05:29.356 to that sugar and how it thus excites the brain 0:05:29.676 --> 0:05:32.436 in a way that maybe even fats and salt and 0:05:32.596 --> 0:05:36.476 proteins certainly doesn't do. One of the powerful aspects of 0:05:36.476 --> 0:05:40.716 these products is memory. We begin developing memories for foods 0:05:40.756 --> 0:05:44.196 at a really young age, possibly even in the womb. 0:05:44.916 --> 0:05:47.916 And that's why the soda companies, for example, know that 0:05:47.956 --> 0:05:49.956 if they can get a soda in the hands of 0:05:49.956 --> 0:05:53.076 a kid when he or she is with her parents 0:05:53.116 --> 0:05:56.796 at a ball game, that will forever more be associated 0:05:56.796 --> 0:05:59.676 with that joyous moment. And when they're older in life 0:05:59.676 --> 0:06:01.276 and they want some joy and comfort in their life, 0:06:01.276 --> 0:06:04.436 what do they turn to soda? Because it's they're kind 0:06:04.476 --> 0:06:06.196 of in their memory. And that's where the companies also 0:06:06.276 --> 0:06:09.356 spent so much money in advertising in a marketing So 0:06:09.796 --> 0:06:13.156 part of what attracts us to food and creates our 0:06:13.676 --> 0:06:18.636 eating habits is in fact the habit, repetitive behavior of 0:06:18.676 --> 0:06:22.876 eating these products again and again deepens those memory channels 0:06:23.036 --> 0:06:32.236 in our brain. When you're talking about food memories, can 0:06:32.276 --> 0:06:34.676 you give me an earliest memory of food for you. 0:06:35.116 --> 0:06:38.556 I grew up in California, Fresno for my early teens, 0:06:38.596 --> 0:06:41.516 in the Central Valley. I was a latchkey kid. My 0:06:41.596 --> 0:06:43.876 mom worked outside of the house, as did my dad. 0:06:44.276 --> 0:06:47.076 I would come home, let myself in the house and 0:06:47.196 --> 0:06:49.436 put a pop Tart in the toast drop. And this 0:06:49.476 --> 0:06:52.836 was after school, elementary school. That's kind of one of 0:06:52.916 --> 0:06:56.996 my earliest food memories. A few years ago, I went 0:06:57.036 --> 0:07:01.356 to the Kellogg's research and development facility way off in 0:07:01.396 --> 0:07:03.996 the distance. In the factory, they had messed up a 0:07:04.116 --> 0:07:07.476 batch of pop Tarts and they were dumping this huge 0:07:07.476 --> 0:07:12.356 amount of raw dough into a dumpster, and the aroma 0:07:12.476 --> 0:07:18.356 came wafting across the factory floor and instantly took me 0:07:18.476 --> 0:07:22.676 back to those days. Because our power of smell is incredible. 0:07:22.676 --> 0:07:24.916 That's another big factor in these products and our love 0:07:24.956 --> 0:07:28.316 for food, but also just the memory those pop tarts 0:07:28.596 --> 0:07:32.436 had never left my brain. They were still in there 0:07:32.556 --> 0:07:36.236 after all that time. So I want to pivot a 0:07:36.276 --> 0:07:39.516 little bit and talk about weight. It's rare to have 0:07:39.556 --> 0:07:43.196 a conversation about food. Food addiction, our relationships with food 0:07:43.476 --> 0:07:46.076 and not have it VERI into talking about weight. One 0:07:46.116 --> 0:07:48.716 of the things that I appreciated about your book is 0:07:48.716 --> 0:07:52.036 that you note that weight is not the only barometer 0:07:52.156 --> 0:07:55.316 for food related trouble in health. What are some of 0:07:55.316 --> 0:07:57.716 the other ones? So, yeah, you can't just look at 0:07:57.716 --> 0:08:00.716 somebody and say because they're they're overweight. And in fact, 0:08:00.756 --> 0:08:03.196 there's even some science that's saying a little bit of 0:08:03.236 --> 0:08:05.756 overweight maybe actually a really good thing for us in 0:08:05.876 --> 0:08:08.396 terms of longevity and what have you. So so yeah, 0:08:08.436 --> 0:08:12.796 I think I'll bec is this really crude measure of health? 0:08:12.996 --> 0:08:15.236 But I have to tell you one of the things 0:08:15.316 --> 0:08:18.716 I was just so struck by, and kind of the 0:08:18.756 --> 0:08:22.356 reporting that I did for this book was how body 0:08:22.436 --> 0:08:29.436 fat is an organ, you know, a thinking, plotting, diabolical 0:08:29.636 --> 0:08:33.476 organ that's doing everything it can to resist your efforts 0:08:33.516 --> 0:08:36.596 to cut back on it, so that if you go 0:08:36.676 --> 0:08:39.356 on a weight loss diet, your own body fat will 0:08:39.396 --> 0:08:41.836 be sending a signal to the brain telling it you're 0:08:41.916 --> 0:08:48.276 hungry eat. It will also slow down your metabolism. You're 0:08:48.316 --> 0:08:51.196 resting metabolism, which is how much energy we burn just 0:08:51.236 --> 0:08:54.036 like sitting around or sort of even sleeping so you're 0:08:54.036 --> 0:08:56.116 burn less energy and what you're less of a threat 0:08:56.116 --> 0:08:59.996 to the fat and again, kind of evolutionarily, that kind 0:09:00.036 --> 0:09:03.156 of makes sense because gaining weight was a really good 0:09:03.196 --> 0:09:07.116 thing to do back in hunters, you know, gathers societies 0:09:07.236 --> 0:09:10.196 when when extra weight was sort of our protection and 0:09:10.196 --> 0:09:12.196 a matter of life and life and death. And so 0:09:12.236 --> 0:09:15.436 it makes sense we would have this resistance then to 0:09:15.716 --> 0:09:19.636 losing that weight as as a protective mechanism. When you 0:09:19.716 --> 0:09:22.436 talk about fat being an organ, are you are you 0:09:22.436 --> 0:09:27.196 being metaphorical or do you? No? No? No, Literally, so 0:09:27.356 --> 0:09:30.676 body fat, the cells of the body, fat communicate with 0:09:30.716 --> 0:09:33.636 each other, they communicate with the rest of the body, 0:09:33.956 --> 0:09:36.636 just like other organs in the body. So it's a 0:09:36.756 --> 0:09:40.756 it's a it's an entity unto itself, and it's really 0:09:40.796 --> 0:09:43.476 really smart diabolically. So, if you're trying to lose weight, 0:09:49.756 --> 0:09:51.836 what do you think is the best way to talk 0:09:51.876 --> 0:09:55.476 about our addiction to food and the problems that are 0:09:55.516 --> 0:09:58.636 having with processed food and with the ways in which 0:09:58.636 --> 0:10:03.436 companies make this food without demonizing people who are overweight 0:10:03.516 --> 0:10:06.316 and have maybe have struggles or maybe some of those 0:10:06.356 --> 0:10:09.316 people who are overweight and are perfectly content with where 0:10:09.356 --> 0:10:12.276 they are. Yeah, I kind of worried about something else 0:10:12.316 --> 0:10:14.196 and using the word addiction, which is that we might 0:10:14.276 --> 0:10:19.396 cause people to feel hopeless. Because the word addiction is 0:10:19.436 --> 0:10:22.996 kind of so strong, it sort of implies that this 0:10:23.076 --> 0:10:27.556 is something that's out of my control. And I absolutely 0:10:28.276 --> 0:10:31.596 don't think that. I'm a journalist, and journalists are kind 0:10:31.596 --> 0:10:35.076 of especially investigative journalists, right, are kind of focused on, 0:10:35.516 --> 0:10:37.756 you know, the problem and pointing out the problem. The 0:10:37.836 --> 0:10:41.036 part of me still believes that knowing all the tricks 0:10:41.076 --> 0:10:44.036 that these companies use when we walk into the grocery 0:10:44.036 --> 0:10:49.316 store or to many restaurants is in itself empowering and 0:10:49.396 --> 0:10:52.916 can you know, can help us regain control of our 0:10:52.916 --> 0:10:55.836 eating habits. But there are also I think some really 0:10:56.076 --> 0:11:00.556 clear solutions here that I've come across. We, by nature 0:11:01.076 --> 0:11:06.396 love convenience, right, We love food that's inexpensive quote unquote, 0:11:06.436 --> 0:11:09.516 that that that cost the least amount of energy to 0:11:09.556 --> 0:11:12.156 get again, going back to a hunter gatherer societies when 0:11:12.196 --> 0:11:14.396 that was a really really good thing to do. So 0:11:14.556 --> 0:11:16.836 what did the food industry do back in the sixties, 0:11:16.916 --> 0:11:19.676 when both women and men were working outside of the 0:11:19.716 --> 0:11:22.316 home and increasing numbers. They came to us and said, 0:11:22.596 --> 0:11:26.236 we'll solve your food problem. We'll make dinner. We'll make 0:11:26.276 --> 0:11:28.356 it convenient for you to come home at seven or 0:11:28.396 --> 0:11:30.476 eight o'clock at night and put dinner on the table 0:11:30.476 --> 0:11:33.196 in thirty minutes. Of course, the hidden price of that 0:11:33.316 --> 0:11:35.196 is what we're now dealing with in terms of our 0:11:35.636 --> 0:11:39.236 health problems. Right. But I think that now knowing that, 0:11:39.276 --> 0:11:42.756 there are ways that we can take back what the 0:11:42.796 --> 0:11:46.716 food industry took from us, even convenience. I mean, look, 0:11:46.996 --> 0:11:50.596 I have a spaghetti sauce recipe down now to ninety 0:11:50.756 --> 0:11:54.636 three seconds. I kid you not granted, if it's simmers 0:11:54.636 --> 0:11:56.836 on the stove a little while, right, if my family's 0:11:56.916 --> 0:11:59.476 like more apt to eat it, But the actual working 0:11:59.596 --> 0:12:02.796 part of it, opening up a can of plum tomatoes 0:12:02.916 --> 0:12:06.596 and adding whatever like dried basil or spices might be round. 0:12:06.596 --> 0:12:08.796 And maybe if I you know, I have ten seconds 0:12:09.156 --> 0:12:13.076 sautang a little garlic and olive oil, that's ninety three seconds. 0:12:13.356 --> 0:12:16.876 That is convenience to the max. But that's home cooking, yeah, 0:12:17.036 --> 0:12:20.516 which is a really powerful tool that we can use 0:12:20.556 --> 0:12:23.156 to change our eating habits and lessen our dependence on 0:12:23.276 --> 0:12:33.716 these processed food products. One of the interesting parts of 0:12:33.716 --> 0:12:35.836 your book is that you talk about the stomach, and 0:12:35.876 --> 0:12:37.796 you talk about the brain, and you talk about how, 0:12:37.836 --> 0:12:41.076 for the longest time, we thought that our stomachs were 0:12:41.196 --> 0:12:44.596 the driving force of our appetites, and you talk about 0:12:44.596 --> 0:12:47.076 how that is part of the story, but not all 0:12:47.076 --> 0:12:50.196 of the story. Tell us more about the brain. One 0:12:50.196 --> 0:12:54.356 of the hallmarks of addictive substances is speed. Back in 0:12:54.396 --> 0:12:59.956 the nineties, scientists studying addiction realized that the fasterest substance 0:12:59.996 --> 0:13:02.076 hits the brain, the more apt the brain is to 0:13:02.196 --> 0:13:06.956 be seduced by that substance and act compulsively, impulsively by 0:13:07.036 --> 0:13:12.756 overeating or over consuming. Right. So typically smoking, for example, 0:13:12.876 --> 0:13:17.636 will fully engage the brain in ten seconds, and alcohol 0:13:17.836 --> 0:13:20.276 and drugs are kind of be a little bit less 0:13:20.316 --> 0:13:24.116 than that. But it turns out there's nothing faster than 0:13:24.356 --> 0:13:26.916 kind of the essential ingredients in process food and their 0:13:26.956 --> 0:13:30.716 ability to hit the reward center of the brains get 0:13:30.756 --> 0:13:33.516 us excited and get us to act impulsively. There was 0:13:33.556 --> 0:13:36.396 this exquisite study done a few years ago where they 0:13:36.436 --> 0:13:38.676 sat people down and said, we want you to tell 0:13:38.756 --> 0:13:40.356 us how fast you taste sugar, so that they put 0:13:40.356 --> 0:13:42.996 a little sugar in their tongue, and those people were 0:13:43.036 --> 0:13:46.236 pushing the button indicating that they were tasting sweet in 0:13:46.396 --> 0:13:50.676 less than one second. And it was really illuminating to 0:13:50.716 --> 0:13:53.676 me because kind of what these processed food products are 0:13:53.716 --> 0:13:57.356 all about. A speed from the manufacturing process to reduce 0:13:57.396 --> 0:14:00.836 the cost from the packaging that lets us open the 0:14:00.876 --> 0:14:03.996 package and get to the product really fast, to the 0:14:04.156 --> 0:14:08.156 speed with which these products, which are heavily based on salt, sugar, 0:14:08.196 --> 0:14:12.196 and fats, also reached the brave really fast. All about speed, 0:14:12.596 --> 0:14:17.596 all about getting us to act impulsively and mindlessly. Which 0:14:17.636 --> 0:14:20.596 is another kind of characteristic of these processed food products 0:14:20.676 --> 0:14:24.956 is that by not thinking about them, we put ourselves, 0:14:24.996 --> 0:14:28.076 We turn ourselves over, we turn our will power over 0:14:28.116 --> 0:14:31.916 to the companies making these making these products. So I 0:14:31.916 --> 0:14:34.996 don't think we've talked as specifically about how the companies 0:14:35.076 --> 0:14:38.316 are actually doing this, whether it be the speed, whether 0:14:38.356 --> 0:14:40.836 it be nurturing our addiction, if you will, nurturing our 0:14:40.876 --> 0:14:44.316 dependency on food, exploiting our dependency on food. How are 0:14:44.316 --> 0:14:47.756 the companies actually doing this. One of our natural attractions 0:14:47.796 --> 0:14:50.276 to food is cheapness. As I mentioned right, we love 0:14:50.516 --> 0:14:54.036 a box of pop tarts that cost ten cents this 0:14:54.076 --> 0:14:56.836 week less than it did last week. That gets us excited. 0:14:56.956 --> 0:14:58.476 We're much more apt to so to put that in 0:14:58.476 --> 0:15:01.236 the shopping cart. Okay, So the food companies have working 0:15:01.436 --> 0:15:06.996 for them chemical laboratories called flavor houses. They're actually located 0:15:07.156 --> 0:15:10.396 in mostly in New Jersey, up and down the corridor, 0:15:11.156 --> 0:15:13.316 where they're kind of doing what you expect them to do. 0:15:13.356 --> 0:15:17.916 They're using chemicals, mixing and matching to imitate some of 0:15:17.916 --> 0:15:21.956 the natural flavorings and foods, which which processed food companies 0:15:21.996 --> 0:15:25.076 then can use to make their products. They're famous for 0:15:25.236 --> 0:15:30.676 inventing pumpkin pie spice. That's scourge that spreads across the 0:15:30.716 --> 0:15:33.916 grocery store every fall right charge of the planet, all 0:15:34.036 --> 0:15:37.556 kinds of stuff from candy, the cookies too, who knows 0:15:37.636 --> 0:15:40.956 what right well, they're using as many as eighty different 0:15:41.036 --> 0:15:44.676 chemical ingredients to create that pumpkin pie spice. But I 0:15:44.756 --> 0:15:47.236 spent some time with one of the flavor houses and 0:15:47.236 --> 0:15:50.916 they explain to me that their even bigger mission for 0:15:50.956 --> 0:15:54.876 the food companies is to constantly search for cheaper, less 0:15:54.916 --> 0:16:00.116 expensive combinations of these chemicals because they know, again going 0:16:00.156 --> 0:16:01.996 back to my favorite, the pop tarts, if they can 0:16:02.076 --> 0:16:04.316 knock ten cents off the price of that box of 0:16:04.356 --> 0:16:06.676 pop Tarts, we're going to be excited by that, and 0:16:06.716 --> 0:16:10.876 they're gonna win in that compare editive marketplace called called 0:16:10.956 --> 0:16:14.996 the grocery store. They also have scientists psychologists who working 0:16:15.556 --> 0:16:19.956 working for them, who understand that many of us eat 0:16:20.036 --> 0:16:26.036 for emotional reasons, not for true hunger pains, right, so 0:16:26.076 --> 0:16:30.556 they spend a lot of time finding ways to push 0:16:30.596 --> 0:16:35.756 those emotional buttons with the pandemic. I remember one Twitter 0:16:35.836 --> 0:16:38.316 ad was for a couple of bags of chips that 0:16:38.436 --> 0:16:41.956 sort of advertised itself by they were foot long doritos. 0:16:41.996 --> 0:16:44.876 As I recall if you had like two stick figures 0:16:44.916 --> 0:16:49.556 staying a safe six feet apart by measuring the distance 0:16:49.636 --> 0:16:55.276 with six bags of doritos. So, whether it's fear or comfort, 0:16:56.036 --> 0:17:02.076 or childhood memories or happiness, the companies know through their 0:17:02.116 --> 0:17:07.556 psychological marketing expertise, how to punch those buttons and get 0:17:07.636 --> 0:17:16.556 us to act. Let's talk about solutions. How do we 0:17:16.676 --> 0:17:18.476 how do we solve this? Like? What are what are 0:17:18.476 --> 0:17:20.676 some steps we could take to actually fix these problems? 0:17:21.036 --> 0:17:25.356 Find anyway you possibly can to do as much cooking 0:17:25.516 --> 0:17:28.876 from scratch as you can, and I think your listeners 0:17:28.916 --> 0:17:31.196 would be amazed at sort of how they can change 0:17:31.276 --> 0:17:35.956 your attitude about about food. Um, there are just like 0:17:36.396 --> 0:17:42.876 so many people out there working on reinventing food, reinventing 0:17:42.996 --> 0:17:47.196 our food environment with our health in mind. Some of 0:17:47.236 --> 0:17:50.116 those people, by the way, have switched sides, having informer 0:17:50.196 --> 0:17:53.436 executives at these big food process food companies, are now 0:17:53.516 --> 0:17:57.916 working on behalf of farmers growing carrots and figuring out 0:17:57.996 --> 0:18:02.116 like what's an exciting way to market carrots to kids? Um. 0:18:02.476 --> 0:18:04.436 And so it's kind of just like sitting back and going, well, 0:18:04.436 --> 0:18:06.796 how can we reclaim what we used to have here? 0:18:06.796 --> 0:18:09.476 And how hard would that be? I have a kitchen, 0:18:09.516 --> 0:18:11.516 I could cook my own food. I have a place 0:18:11.556 --> 0:18:14.356 to go to get fresh produce, to get vegetables. I'm 0:18:14.356 --> 0:18:16.956 not dealing with a food desert. A lot of the 0:18:16.996 --> 0:18:21.236 convenience and the cheapness that comes with the processed foods 0:18:21.636 --> 0:18:23.956 is really affecting the people who have the least amount 0:18:23.956 --> 0:18:27.676 of resources. How can we help them? Oh? Absolutely, So 0:18:27.876 --> 0:18:31.796 there are efforts underway, and they started in Philadelphia working 0:18:31.916 --> 0:18:36.996 with corners stores to help them sell fresh produce, which 0:18:37.076 --> 0:18:39.396 is a lot harder than you might than it might sound, 0:18:39.436 --> 0:18:42.316 because I'm at the coolers that they have are owned 0:18:42.956 --> 0:18:45.076 by the soda companies who don't want a bunch of 0:18:45.116 --> 0:18:47.276 broccoli and their coolers, so figure out sort of how 0:18:47.356 --> 0:18:50.156 to do that. So I love that aspect of it. 0:18:50.316 --> 0:18:52.396 If I was king for a day, I would put 0:18:52.396 --> 0:18:55.436 a garden in every school in this country. Getting the 0:18:55.516 --> 0:18:59.076 kids excited about real food, getting their parents excited. But 0:18:59.196 --> 0:19:02.996 then making that real food available to those parents at 0:19:02.996 --> 0:19:06.316 a price that's affordable is going to mean rethinking the 0:19:06.476 --> 0:19:09.076 entire farm system, because so much of the farm says 0:19:09.916 --> 0:19:14.156 the vast majority of it is about making soybeans and 0:19:14.516 --> 0:19:19.156 field corn cheaper and cheaper as ingredients for processed food. 0:19:19.356 --> 0:19:22.316 And if you could flip that around and help the 0:19:22.396 --> 0:19:26.796 agricultural system find ways to make broccoli less expensive and 0:19:26.876 --> 0:19:31.236 broccoli sweeter and more enticing and succulent to people and fresher, 0:19:31.636 --> 0:19:34.396 that's another essential thing that has to happen. How would 0:19:34.396 --> 0:19:37.516 they do that? The groundwork is already there. I wrote 0:19:37.516 --> 0:19:40.196 a story a few years ago for The Times where 0:19:40.476 --> 0:19:44.116 I wrote about kids who'd left kind of the industrial 0:19:44.236 --> 0:19:47.156 soybean farm, went to the city, got dissolution, came back 0:19:47.196 --> 0:19:49.836 to the farm in the Midwest, but did want to 0:19:49.836 --> 0:19:54.476 continue that and they started growing, you know, produce vegetables 0:19:54.596 --> 0:19:58.796 and fruits and nuts, and one of the biggest things 0:19:58.876 --> 0:20:02.836 they needed was help with marketing because they didn't have 0:20:02.916 --> 0:20:05.356 the farmers markets that they had that they have in 0:20:05.356 --> 0:20:10.356 Brooklyn and Portland and Seattle. So helping with marketing, But 0:20:10.596 --> 0:20:15.076 basically you need a Department of Agriculture that's oriented much 0:20:15.116 --> 0:20:20.596 more to our health and much less to industrial industrial farming. 0:20:21.756 --> 0:20:24.556 Is there an incentive for the Department of Agriculture to 0:20:25.036 --> 0:20:28.836 have us, you know, continue to be unhealthy and to 0:20:28.916 --> 0:20:31.036 eat things that are not nutritious. Is there an incentive 0:20:31.076 --> 0:20:34.356 that stops them from actually putting solutions that like you're 0:20:34.356 --> 0:20:37.956 talking about, which all seem very simple into action. Yeah. 0:20:38.036 --> 0:20:41.356 I think it's just the you know, the corporate farming 0:20:41.596 --> 0:20:48.036 business has lobbyists who are incredibly powerful, and agriculture is 0:20:48.076 --> 0:20:51.916 a powerful economic engine in the country. So I think 0:20:51.916 --> 0:20:56.356 it's just that that synergy that's happened between the farmers 0:20:56.436 --> 0:21:00.316 growing ingredients for processed food and the officials at the 0:21:00.316 --> 0:21:04.636 Department of Agriculture working together on that, and it's just 0:21:04.996 --> 0:21:07.636 it's been really, really difficult to sort of affect some 0:21:07.756 --> 0:21:11.716 real meaningful change there. Are you optimistic about us being 0:21:11.756 --> 0:21:14.876 able to turn this around? To break this type of 0:21:14.876 --> 0:21:19.676 addiction on processed foods. Yeah, there's just so many people 0:21:19.796 --> 0:21:25.076 working on so many different solutions to food and the 0:21:25.116 --> 0:21:27.476 food environment that I can't I can't help it but 0:21:27.916 --> 0:21:30.876 not be optimistic. A lot of people write about food 0:21:30.956 --> 0:21:34.316 as critics, and obviously you have found the lane and 0:21:34.436 --> 0:21:36.516 you stay in it. What made you want to write 0:21:36.516 --> 0:21:39.796 about the food industry in this way? There have been 0:21:39.796 --> 0:21:43.956 an outbreak of salmonella and peanuts being manufactured in the 0:21:44.036 --> 0:21:46.316 southern United States, and I went down and took a look, 0:21:46.356 --> 0:21:51.076 and it opened this incredible window on this processed food 0:21:51.116 --> 0:21:54.716 industry because many of these big companies were using these 0:21:54.756 --> 0:21:58.676 tainted peanuts as ingredients in their food products, and they 0:21:58.716 --> 0:22:01.556 had lost control of the food chain. So weeks and 0:22:01.596 --> 0:22:03.796 weeks were going by, people were falling sickle over the 0:22:03.796 --> 0:22:06.916 country and they couldn't figure out if those peanuts were 0:22:06.996 --> 0:22:09.356 in their products or not. So that's kind of the 0:22:09.396 --> 0:22:12.636 first thing that got me really really interested in this 0:22:12.756 --> 0:22:16.196 industry and what it was doing to us. And then 0:22:16.316 --> 0:22:18.716 one of my best sources, who tests meat for E coal, 0:22:18.756 --> 0:22:21.116 I said to be you know, Michael, as tragic as 0:22:21.156 --> 0:22:25.556 these incidents of contamination or you should really look at 0:22:25.596 --> 0:22:28.916 what my industry is intentionally adding to its products over 0:22:28.956 --> 0:22:31.956 which it has absolute control. He was worried about all 0:22:31.956 --> 0:22:34.676 the salt going into process meat, but that led me 0:22:34.716 --> 0:22:38.996 to look at sugar and fats as well, and then 0:22:39.076 --> 0:22:41.716 more recently on the industry's ability to sort of use 0:22:41.716 --> 0:22:51.476 our own basic instincts against us. What would you recommend 0:22:51.476 --> 0:22:55.236 to our listeners to help solve this problem. So it 0:22:55.316 --> 0:22:59.956 kind of depends where you are on the spectrum of 0:23:00.156 --> 0:23:04.316 losing control to these food products. Obviously, if you're binge eating, 0:23:04.876 --> 0:23:07.836 you're going to be dealing with professional helping. Is that 0:23:07.916 --> 0:23:10.396 they're really really difficult thing to do with. I mean, 0:23:10.396 --> 0:23:13.356 if you're somebody who gets like that three pm craving 0:23:13.436 --> 0:23:17.356 for a cookie, one of the lessons that we've learned 0:23:17.396 --> 0:23:20.676 from the world of drug addiction is that that craving 0:23:21.036 --> 0:23:26.316 comes on so strong and wipes out your free will, 0:23:26.636 --> 0:23:29.876 your ability to sort of say no, that you pretty 0:23:29.956 --> 0:23:31.916 much have to find a way to get ahead of 0:23:31.956 --> 0:23:35.596 the craving. So, whether your strategy is to get up 0:23:35.596 --> 0:23:38.436 its stretch or call a friend, or try to eat 0:23:38.476 --> 0:23:41.996 something else that's healthier, like a handful of nuts, you've 0:23:42.076 --> 0:23:44.436 pretty much need to be doing that at two fifty 0:23:44.516 --> 0:23:48.916 five in order to word off that three PM craving 0:23:49.516 --> 0:23:53.316 are losing control. It's not our fault, this is not 0:23:53.516 --> 0:23:57.116 on us. These products are engineered in a way that's 0:23:57.236 --> 0:24:03.316 designed to get us to lose control over our willpower, 0:24:03.516 --> 0:24:06.196 over our ability to say noes. And so that's what 0:24:06.236 --> 0:24:09.756 they're engineered to do. And knowing that, I think is 0:24:09.756 --> 0:24:13.676 a really fundamental point here figuring out how we use 0:24:13.756 --> 0:24:19.036 individuals with strategies we can take to regain control. Do 0:24:19.116 --> 0:24:22.076 we need to take these companies to task, because there's 0:24:22.076 --> 0:24:24.956 one thing with Philip Morris where we did and that 0:24:25.036 --> 0:24:27.276 kind of resulted in kind of a shift in our 0:24:27.316 --> 0:24:31.156 attitudes towards smoking. At what point can we feel empowered 0:24:31.196 --> 0:24:33.796