1 00:00:15,076 --> 00:00:23,996 Speaker 1: Pushkin, this is solvable. I'm Ronald Young Jr. Is it 2 00:00:24,076 --> 00:00:27,756 Speaker 1: really fair to compare you twinkies and Oreo cookies with 3 00:00:27,956 --> 00:00:33,276 Speaker 1: cigarettes and alcohol and even some drugs. Food is delicious, nutritious, 4 00:00:33,316 --> 00:00:38,316 Speaker 1: and sometimes controversial, whether it's less red meat, more vegetables, 5 00:00:38,436 --> 00:00:44,836 Speaker 1: or dairy alternatives. Dietitians, nutritionists, doctors, trainers, chefs, and foodies 6 00:00:44,996 --> 00:00:48,236 Speaker 1: all have an opinion on what we should and should 7 00:00:48,356 --> 00:00:51,276 Speaker 1: not be putting into our bodies. At times, it could 8 00:00:51,316 --> 00:00:54,196 Speaker 1: feel difficult to know what is the right decision when 9 00:00:54,236 --> 00:00:57,356 Speaker 1: it comes to our eating habits. It's not our fault. 10 00:00:57,436 --> 00:01:01,316 Speaker 1: This is not on us. These products are engineered in 11 00:01:01,356 --> 00:01:05,556 Speaker 1: a way that's designed to get us to lose control. 12 00:01:06,036 --> 00:01:08,636 Speaker 1: We live in an age where what we're consuming has 13 00:01:08,716 --> 00:01:12,196 Speaker 1: changed beyond the necessity of survival, and in most ways 14 00:01:12,236 --> 00:01:15,956 Speaker 1: those changes are intentional. We've grown up to see these 15 00:01:15,996 --> 00:01:20,676 Speaker 1: food products as being full of cartoon characters and joy 16 00:01:20,716 --> 00:01:24,036 Speaker 1: and happiness. So, I mean, can you imagine there being 17 00:01:24,076 --> 00:01:29,116 Speaker 1: like a march through the streets of Brooklyn protesting Oreo cookies. 18 00:01:29,596 --> 00:01:33,516 Speaker 1: Michael Moss is a Pulitzer Prize winning investigative journalist and 19 00:01:33,636 --> 00:01:38,156 Speaker 1: New York Times best selling author Our overdependence on process food, 20 00:01:38,156 --> 00:01:42,636 Speaker 1: which has this incredible hidden cost, can be solved by 21 00:01:42,756 --> 00:01:49,036 Speaker 1: our reclaiming food for ourselves. I'm excited to talk to 22 00:01:49,076 --> 00:01:51,596 Speaker 1: you because we're going to a place where people are 23 00:01:51,596 --> 00:01:55,156 Speaker 1: trying to lose the quarantine fifteen after, you know, kind 24 00:01:55,156 --> 00:01:59,876 Speaker 1: of eating whatever over the lockdown months, and people's relationship 25 00:02:00,076 --> 00:02:03,636 Speaker 1: with food right now is probably at a very pivotal moment. 26 00:02:04,036 --> 00:02:07,356 Speaker 1: So one thing as someone who like I've struggled both 27 00:02:07,396 --> 00:02:10,636 Speaker 1: with weight probably most of my life, and my relationship 28 00:02:10,676 --> 00:02:14,036 Speaker 1: with food, and I also struggled with the idea of 29 00:02:14,156 --> 00:02:18,396 Speaker 1: food addiction, as it feels impossible to be addicted to 30 00:02:18,436 --> 00:02:21,036 Speaker 1: something that your body needs. And you talk about this 31 00:02:21,116 --> 00:02:23,676 Speaker 1: in your book Hook Yes. So being addicted to food 32 00:02:23,796 --> 00:02:27,276 Speaker 1: was a really good thing for most of our existence, 33 00:02:27,396 --> 00:02:31,116 Speaker 1: or forbears, putting on body fat was a really good 34 00:02:31,156 --> 00:02:33,516 Speaker 1: thing because it enabled our brains to grow and enable 35 00:02:33,516 --> 00:02:36,076 Speaker 1: to stink of your hard times and have more offspring, 36 00:02:36,116 --> 00:02:38,236 Speaker 1: which is kind of what life is all about, right. 37 00:02:38,956 --> 00:02:42,996 Speaker 1: But the problem is the nature of our food was 38 00:02:43,156 --> 00:02:46,196 Speaker 1: changed so dramatically by the food companies in the last 39 00:02:46,236 --> 00:02:49,156 Speaker 1: fifty years that's suddenly what was really good for us 40 00:02:49,236 --> 00:02:52,876 Speaker 1: became really problematic. How would you define addiction and why 41 00:02:52,916 --> 00:02:55,676 Speaker 1: food can be addictive despite us having to eat to live. 42 00:02:56,436 --> 00:02:59,956 Speaker 1: I spent time with evolutionary biologists for this book because 43 00:02:59,996 --> 00:03:02,556 Speaker 1: I was really kind of trying to figure out is 44 00:03:02,956 --> 00:03:06,076 Speaker 1: addiction really kind of the right word, and is it 45 00:03:06,156 --> 00:03:09,916 Speaker 1: really fair to compare you twinkies and or cookies? Was 46 00:03:10,036 --> 00:03:14,796 Speaker 1: cigarettes and alcohol and even some drugs, And so spending 47 00:03:14,916 --> 00:03:18,916 Speaker 1: time though with these biologists, I came full circle and 48 00:03:18,956 --> 00:03:20,956 Speaker 1: now I'm convinced that in any way these food products 49 00:03:20,956 --> 00:03:26,356 Speaker 1: are even more problematic. There is some predecedens to the 50 00:03:26,356 --> 00:03:31,476 Speaker 1: food industry called the tobacco industry. For decades it vehemently 51 00:03:31,556 --> 00:03:33,836 Speaker 1: denied that smoking was addictive, right to put all its 52 00:03:33,876 --> 00:03:37,196 Speaker 1: scientists who work on that, and it's it's lobbyists and 53 00:03:37,236 --> 00:03:41,836 Speaker 1: it stops SEO officials and etc. Well, in two thousands, 54 00:03:41,876 --> 00:03:46,116 Speaker 1: something really fascinating happened, which is that Philip Morris completely 55 00:03:46,156 --> 00:03:49,716 Speaker 1: flipped around and said, Okay, you got us, smoking is 56 00:03:49,916 --> 00:03:52,716 Speaker 1: in fact addictive or throwing in the towel on that. 57 00:03:52,796 --> 00:03:55,236 Speaker 1: What was so interesting about that for me is that 58 00:03:55,356 --> 00:03:58,756 Speaker 1: Philip Morris at the time was also the single largest 59 00:03:58,796 --> 00:04:02,556 Speaker 1: manufacturer of process food through its purchase of the old 60 00:04:02,556 --> 00:04:06,316 Speaker 1: company General Foods, and then Craft and then Nabisco, which 61 00:04:06,356 --> 00:04:10,076 Speaker 1: made Oreo cookies, And that same year, the CEO of 62 00:04:10,076 --> 00:04:14,076 Speaker 1: the company was asked to define addiction in some legal 63 00:04:14,116 --> 00:04:18,556 Speaker 1: proceedings and he says, well, addiction is a repetitive behavior 64 00:04:18,956 --> 00:04:23,716 Speaker 1: that some people find difficult to quit. And I thought 65 00:04:23,716 --> 00:04:27,036 Speaker 1: that was so perfect a because it's in line with 66 00:04:27,516 --> 00:04:30,756 Speaker 1: what scientists and experts think of as addiction these days. 67 00:04:30,996 --> 00:04:34,916 Speaker 1: But I also loved the words some there because addiction 68 00:04:35,156 --> 00:04:38,876 Speaker 1: happens on a spectrum, so it can affect us differently 69 00:04:38,876 --> 00:04:41,316 Speaker 1: as people. It confect us different times of our lives, 70 00:04:41,356 --> 00:04:44,676 Speaker 1: different times of the day. So I thought that definition 71 00:04:44,716 --> 00:04:47,596 Speaker 1: by Philip Morris, arguably one of the biggest experts on 72 00:04:47,636 --> 00:04:50,956 Speaker 1: addiction in the world, was totally apted. So I used 73 00:04:50,996 --> 00:04:54,196 Speaker 1: that throughout the book in terms of talking about addiction 74 00:04:54,236 --> 00:04:56,796 Speaker 1: and looking at these products and what these companies do 75 00:04:57,436 --> 00:05:01,676 Speaker 1: to maximize the seductive power of their product. Why is 76 00:05:01,716 --> 00:05:03,836 Speaker 1: it that our brains and bodies are wired to crave 77 00:05:04,076 --> 00:05:07,556 Speaker 1: certain foods if those foods aren't helpful to us. That's 78 00:05:07,636 --> 00:05:09,996 Speaker 1: kind of one of the biggest mystery. He's still out there. 79 00:05:10,036 --> 00:05:13,716 Speaker 1: I mean, there's some thought the brain looks at sugar 80 00:05:13,796 --> 00:05:17,836 Speaker 1: as calories for young growing bodies. And you know, when 81 00:05:17,836 --> 00:05:20,556 Speaker 1: we were living on the planes and hunter gatherer societies, 82 00:05:20,716 --> 00:05:22,796 Speaker 1: sugar was kind of a rare thing, and so you 83 00:05:22,796 --> 00:05:24,996 Speaker 1: can kind of see how we might have gotten attracted 84 00:05:25,316 --> 00:05:29,356 Speaker 1: to that sugar and how it thus excites the brain 85 00:05:29,676 --> 00:05:32,436 Speaker 1: in a way that maybe even fats and salt and 86 00:05:32,596 --> 00:05:36,476 Speaker 1: proteins certainly doesn't do. One of the powerful aspects of 87 00:05:36,476 --> 00:05:40,716 Speaker 1: these products is memory. We begin developing memories for foods 88 00:05:40,756 --> 00:05:44,196 Speaker 1: at a really young age, possibly even in the womb. 89 00:05:44,916 --> 00:05:47,916 Speaker 1: And that's why the soda companies, for example, know that 90 00:05:47,956 --> 00:05:49,956 Speaker 1: if they can get a soda in the hands of 91 00:05:49,956 --> 00:05:53,076 Speaker 1: a kid when he or she is with her parents 92 00:05:53,116 --> 00:05:56,796 Speaker 1: at a ball game, that will forever more be associated 93 00:05:56,796 --> 00:05:59,676 Speaker 1: with that joyous moment. And when they're older in life 94 00:05:59,676 --> 00:06:01,276 Speaker 1: and they want some joy and comfort in their life, 95 00:06:01,276 --> 00:06:04,436 Speaker 1: what do they turn to soda? Because it's they're kind 96 00:06:04,476 --> 00:06:06,196 Speaker 1: of in their memory. And that's where the companies also 97 00:06:06,276 --> 00:06:09,356 Speaker 1: spent so much money in advertising in a marketing So 98 00:06:09,796 --> 00:06:13,156 Speaker 1: part of what attracts us to food and creates our 99 00:06:13,676 --> 00:06:18,636 Speaker 1: eating habits is in fact the habit, repetitive behavior of 100 00:06:18,676 --> 00:06:22,876 Speaker 1: eating these products again and again deepens those memory channels 101 00:06:23,036 --> 00:06:32,236 Speaker 1: in our brain. When you're talking about food memories, can 102 00:06:32,276 --> 00:06:34,676 Speaker 1: you give me an earliest memory of food for you. 103 00:06:35,116 --> 00:06:38,556 Speaker 1: I grew up in California, Fresno for my early teens, 104 00:06:38,596 --> 00:06:41,516 Speaker 1: in the Central Valley. I was a latchkey kid. My 105 00:06:41,596 --> 00:06:43,876 Speaker 1: mom worked outside of the house, as did my dad. 106 00:06:44,276 --> 00:06:47,076 Speaker 1: I would come home, let myself in the house and 107 00:06:47,196 --> 00:06:49,436 Speaker 1: put a pop Tart in the toast drop. And this 108 00:06:49,476 --> 00:06:52,836 Speaker 1: was after school, elementary school. That's kind of one of 109 00:06:52,916 --> 00:06:56,996 Speaker 1: my earliest food memories. A few years ago, I went 110 00:06:57,036 --> 00:07:01,356 Speaker 1: to the Kellogg's research and development facility way off in 111 00:07:01,396 --> 00:07:03,996 Speaker 1: the distance. In the factory, they had messed up a 112 00:07:04,116 --> 00:07:07,476 Speaker 1: batch of pop Tarts and they were dumping this huge 113 00:07:07,476 --> 00:07:12,356 Speaker 1: amount of raw dough into a dumpster, and the aroma 114 00:07:12,476 --> 00:07:18,356 Speaker 1: came wafting across the factory floor and instantly took me 115 00:07:18,476 --> 00:07:22,676 Speaker 1: back to those days. Because our power of smell is incredible. 116 00:07:22,676 --> 00:07:24,916 Speaker 1: That's another big factor in these products and our love 117 00:07:24,956 --> 00:07:28,316 Speaker 1: for food, but also just the memory those pop tarts 118 00:07:28,596 --> 00:07:32,436 Speaker 1: had never left my brain. They were still in there 119 00:07:32,556 --> 00:07:36,236 Speaker 1: after all that time. So I want to pivot a 120 00:07:36,276 --> 00:07:39,516 Speaker 1: little bit and talk about weight. It's rare to have 121 00:07:39,556 --> 00:07:43,196 Speaker 1: a conversation about food. Food addiction, our relationships with food 122 00:07:43,476 --> 00:07:46,076 Speaker 1: and not have it VERI into talking about weight. One 123 00:07:46,116 --> 00:07:48,716 Speaker 1: of the things that I appreciated about your book is 124 00:07:48,716 --> 00:07:52,036 Speaker 1: that you note that weight is not the only barometer 125 00:07:52,156 --> 00:07:55,316 Speaker 1: for food related trouble in health. What are some of 126 00:07:55,316 --> 00:07:57,716 Speaker 1: the other ones? So, yeah, you can't just look at 127 00:07:57,716 --> 00:08:00,716 Speaker 1: somebody and say because they're they're overweight. And in fact, 128 00:08:00,756 --> 00:08:03,196 Speaker 1: there's even some science that's saying a little bit of 129 00:08:03,236 --> 00:08:05,756 Speaker 1: overweight maybe actually a really good thing for us in 130 00:08:05,876 --> 00:08:08,396 Speaker 1: terms of longevity and what have you. So so yeah, 131 00:08:08,436 --> 00:08:12,796 Speaker 1: I think I'll bec is this really crude measure of health? 132 00:08:12,996 --> 00:08:15,236 Speaker 1: But I have to tell you one of the things 133 00:08:15,316 --> 00:08:18,716 Speaker 1: I was just so struck by, and kind of the 134 00:08:18,756 --> 00:08:22,356 Speaker 1: reporting that I did for this book was how body 135 00:08:22,436 --> 00:08:29,436 Speaker 1: fat is an organ, you know, a thinking, plotting, diabolical 136 00:08:29,636 --> 00:08:33,476 Speaker 1: organ that's doing everything it can to resist your efforts 137 00:08:33,516 --> 00:08:36,596 Speaker 1: to cut back on it, so that if you go 138 00:08:36,676 --> 00:08:39,356 Speaker 1: on a weight loss diet, your own body fat will 139 00:08:39,396 --> 00:08:41,836 Speaker 1: be sending a signal to the brain telling it you're 140 00:08:41,916 --> 00:08:48,276 Speaker 1: hungry eat. It will also slow down your metabolism. You're 141 00:08:48,316 --> 00:08:51,196 Speaker 1: resting metabolism, which is how much energy we burn just 142 00:08:51,236 --> 00:08:54,036 Speaker 1: like sitting around or sort of even sleeping so you're 143 00:08:54,036 --> 00:08:56,116 Speaker 1: burn less energy and what you're less of a threat 144 00:08:56,116 --> 00:08:59,996 Speaker 1: to the fat and again, kind of evolutionarily, that kind 145 00:09:00,036 --> 00:09:03,156 Speaker 1: of makes sense because gaining weight was a really good 146 00:09:03,196 --> 00:09:07,116 Speaker 1: thing to do back in hunters, you know, gathers societies 147 00:09:07,236 --> 00:09:10,196 Speaker 1: when when extra weight was sort of our protection and 148 00:09:10,196 --> 00:09:12,196 Speaker 1: a matter of life and life and death. And so 149 00:09:12,236 --> 00:09:15,436 Speaker 1: it makes sense we would have this resistance then to 150 00:09:15,716 --> 00:09:19,636 Speaker 1: losing that weight as as a protective mechanism. When you 151 00:09:19,716 --> 00:09:22,436 Speaker 1: talk about fat being an organ, are you are you 152 00:09:22,436 --> 00:09:27,196 Speaker 1: being metaphorical or do you? No? No? No, Literally, so 153 00:09:27,356 --> 00:09:30,676 Speaker 1: body fat, the cells of the body, fat communicate with 154 00:09:30,716 --> 00:09:33,636 Speaker 1: each other, they communicate with the rest of the body, 155 00:09:33,956 --> 00:09:36,636 Speaker 1: just like other organs in the body. So it's a 156 00:09:36,756 --> 00:09:40,756 Speaker 1: it's a it's an entity unto itself, and it's really 157 00:09:40,796 --> 00:09:43,476 Speaker 1: really smart diabolically. So, if you're trying to lose weight, 158 00:09:49,756 --> 00:09:51,836 Speaker 1: what do you think is the best way to talk 159 00:09:51,876 --> 00:09:55,476 Speaker 1: about our addiction to food and the problems that are 160 00:09:55,516 --> 00:09:58,636 Speaker 1: having with processed food and with the ways in which 161 00:09:58,636 --> 00:10:03,436 Speaker 1: companies make this food without demonizing people who are overweight 162 00:10:03,516 --> 00:10:06,316 Speaker 1: and have maybe have struggles or maybe some of those 163 00:10:06,356 --> 00:10:09,316 Speaker 1: people who are overweight and are perfectly content with where 164 00:10:09,356 --> 00:10:12,276 Speaker 1: they are. Yeah, I kind of worried about something else 165 00:10:12,316 --> 00:10:14,196 Speaker 1: and using the word addiction, which is that we might 166 00:10:14,276 --> 00:10:19,396 Speaker 1: cause people to feel hopeless. Because the word addiction is 167 00:10:19,436 --> 00:10:22,996 Speaker 1: kind of so strong, it sort of implies that this 168 00:10:23,076 --> 00:10:27,556 Speaker 1: is something that's out of my control. And I absolutely 169 00:10:28,276 --> 00:10:31,596 Speaker 1: don't think that. I'm a journalist, and journalists are kind 170 00:10:31,596 --> 00:10:35,076 Speaker 1: of especially investigative journalists, right, are kind of focused on, 171 00:10:35,516 --> 00:10:37,756 Speaker 1: you know, the problem and pointing out the problem. The 172 00:10:37,836 --> 00:10:41,036 Speaker 1: part of me still believes that knowing all the tricks 173 00:10:41,076 --> 00:10:44,036 Speaker 1: that these companies use when we walk into the grocery 174 00:10:44,036 --> 00:10:49,316 Speaker 1: store or to many restaurants is in itself empowering and 175 00:10:49,396 --> 00:10:52,916 Speaker 1: can you know, can help us regain control of our 176 00:10:52,916 --> 00:10:55,836 Speaker 1: eating habits. But there are also I think some really 177 00:10:56,076 --> 00:11:00,556 Speaker 1: clear solutions here that I've come across. We, by nature 178 00:11:01,076 --> 00:11:06,396 Speaker 1: love convenience, right, We love food that's inexpensive quote unquote, 179 00:11:06,436 --> 00:11:09,516 Speaker 1: that that that cost the least amount of energy to 180 00:11:09,556 --> 00:11:12,156 Speaker 1: get again, going back to a hunter gatherer societies when 181 00:11:12,196 --> 00:11:14,396 Speaker 1: that was a really really good thing to do. So 182 00:11:14,556 --> 00:11:16,836 Speaker 1: what did the food industry do back in the sixties, 183 00:11:16,916 --> 00:11:19,676 Speaker 1: when both women and men were working outside of the 184 00:11:19,716 --> 00:11:22,316 Speaker 1: home and increasing numbers. They came to us and said, 185 00:11:22,596 --> 00:11:26,236 Speaker 1: we'll solve your food problem. We'll make dinner. We'll make 186 00:11:26,276 --> 00:11:28,356 Speaker 1: it convenient for you to come home at seven or 187 00:11:28,396 --> 00:11:30,476 Speaker 1: eight o'clock at night and put dinner on the table 188 00:11:30,476 --> 00:11:33,196 Speaker 1: in thirty minutes. Of course, the hidden price of that 189 00:11:33,316 --> 00:11:35,196 Speaker 1: is what we're now dealing with in terms of our 190 00:11:35,636 --> 00:11:39,236 Speaker 1: health problems. Right. But I think that now knowing that, 191 00:11:39,276 --> 00:11:42,756 Speaker 1: there are ways that we can take back what the 192 00:11:42,796 --> 00:11:46,716 Speaker 1: food industry took from us, even convenience. I mean, look, 193 00:11:46,996 --> 00:11:50,596 Speaker 1: I have a spaghetti sauce recipe down now to ninety 194 00:11:50,756 --> 00:11:54,636 Speaker 1: three seconds. I kid you not granted, if it's simmers 195 00:11:54,636 --> 00:11:56,836 Speaker 1: on the stove a little while, right, if my family's 196 00:11:56,916 --> 00:11:59,476 Speaker 1: like more apt to eat it, But the actual working 197 00:11:59,596 --> 00:12:02,796 Speaker 1: part of it, opening up a can of plum tomatoes 198 00:12:02,916 --> 00:12:06,596 Speaker 1: and adding whatever like dried basil or spices might be round. 199 00:12:06,596 --> 00:12:08,796 Speaker 1: And maybe if I you know, I have ten seconds 200 00:12:09,156 --> 00:12:13,076 Speaker 1: sautang a little garlic and olive oil, that's ninety three seconds. 201 00:12:13,356 --> 00:12:16,876 Speaker 1: That is convenience to the max. But that's home cooking, yeah, 202 00:12:17,036 --> 00:12:20,516 Speaker 1: which is a really powerful tool that we can use 203 00:12:20,556 --> 00:12:23,156 Speaker 1: to change our eating habits and lessen our dependence on 204 00:12:23,276 --> 00:12:33,716 Speaker 1: these processed food products. One of the interesting parts of 205 00:12:33,716 --> 00:12:35,836 Speaker 1: your book is that you talk about the stomach, and 206 00:12:35,876 --> 00:12:37,796 Speaker 1: you talk about the brain, and you talk about how, 207 00:12:37,836 --> 00:12:41,076 Speaker 1: for the longest time, we thought that our stomachs were 208 00:12:41,196 --> 00:12:44,596 Speaker 1: the driving force of our appetites, and you talk about 209 00:12:44,596 --> 00:12:47,076 Speaker 1: how that is part of the story, but not all 210 00:12:47,076 --> 00:12:50,196 Speaker 1: of the story. Tell us more about the brain. One 211 00:12:50,196 --> 00:12:54,356 Speaker 1: of the hallmarks of addictive substances is speed. Back in 212 00:12:54,396 --> 00:12:59,956 Speaker 1: the nineties, scientists studying addiction realized that the fasterest substance 213 00:12:59,996 --> 00:13:02,076 Speaker 1: hits the brain, the more apt the brain is to 214 00:13:02,196 --> 00:13:06,956 Speaker 1: be seduced by that substance and act compulsively, impulsively by 215 00:13:07,036 --> 00:13:12,756 Speaker 1: overeating or over consuming. Right. So typically smoking, for example, 216 00:13:12,876 --> 00:13:17,636 Speaker 1: will fully engage the brain in ten seconds, and alcohol 217 00:13:17,836 --> 00:13:20,276 Speaker 1: and drugs are kind of be a little bit less 218 00:13:20,316 --> 00:13:24,116 Speaker 1: than that. But it turns out there's nothing faster than 219 00:13:24,356 --> 00:13:26,916 Speaker 1: kind of the essential ingredients in process food and their 220 00:13:26,956 --> 00:13:30,716 Speaker 1: ability to hit the reward center of the brains get 221 00:13:30,756 --> 00:13:33,516 Speaker 1: us excited and get us to act impulsively. There was 222 00:13:33,556 --> 00:13:36,396 Speaker 1: this exquisite study done a few years ago where they 223 00:13:36,436 --> 00:13:38,676 Speaker 1: sat people down and said, we want you to tell 224 00:13:38,756 --> 00:13:40,356 Speaker 1: us how fast you taste sugar, so that they put 225 00:13:40,356 --> 00:13:42,996 Speaker 1: a little sugar in their tongue, and those people were 226 00:13:43,036 --> 00:13:46,236 Speaker 1: pushing the button indicating that they were tasting sweet in 227 00:13:46,396 --> 00:13:50,676 Speaker 1: less than one second. And it was really illuminating to 228 00:13:50,716 --> 00:13:53,676 Speaker 1: me because kind of what these processed food products are 229 00:13:53,716 --> 00:13:57,356 Speaker 1: all about. A speed from the manufacturing process to reduce 230 00:13:57,396 --> 00:14:00,836 Speaker 1: the cost from the packaging that lets us open the 231 00:14:00,876 --> 00:14:03,996 Speaker 1: package and get to the product really fast, to the 232 00:14:04,156 --> 00:14:08,156 Speaker 1: speed with which these products, which are heavily based on salt, sugar, 233 00:14:08,196 --> 00:14:12,196 Speaker 1: and fats, also reached the brave really fast. All about speed, 234 00:14:12,596 --> 00:14:17,596 Speaker 1: all about getting us to act impulsively and mindlessly. Which 235 00:14:17,636 --> 00:14:20,596 Speaker 1: is another kind of characteristic of these processed food products 236 00:14:20,676 --> 00:14:24,956 Speaker 1: is that by not thinking about them, we put ourselves, 237 00:14:24,996 --> 00:14:28,076 Speaker 1: We turn ourselves over, we turn our will power over 238 00:14:28,116 --> 00:14:31,916 Speaker 1: to the companies making these making these products. So I 239 00:14:31,916 --> 00:14:34,996 Speaker 1: don't think we've talked as specifically about how the companies 240 00:14:35,076 --> 00:14:38,316 Speaker 1: are actually doing this, whether it be the speed, whether 241 00:14:38,356 --> 00:14:40,836 Speaker 1: it be nurturing our addiction, if you will, nurturing our 242 00:14:40,876 --> 00:14:44,316 Speaker 1: dependency on food, exploiting our dependency on food. How are 243 00:14:44,316 --> 00:14:47,756 Speaker 1: the companies actually doing this. One of our natural attractions 244 00:14:47,796 --> 00:14:50,276 Speaker 1: to food is cheapness. As I mentioned right, we love 245 00:14:50,516 --> 00:14:54,036 Speaker 1: a box of pop tarts that cost ten cents this 246 00:14:54,076 --> 00:14:56,836 Speaker 1: week less than it did last week. That gets us excited. 247 00:14:56,956 --> 00:14:58,476 Speaker 1: We're much more apt to so to put that in 248 00:14:58,476 --> 00:15:01,236 Speaker 1: the shopping cart. Okay, So the food companies have working 249 00:15:01,436 --> 00:15:06,996 Speaker 1: for them chemical laboratories called flavor houses. They're actually located 250 00:15:07,156 --> 00:15:10,396 Speaker 1: in mostly in New Jersey, up and down the corridor, 251 00:15:11,156 --> 00:15:13,316 Speaker 1: where they're kind of doing what you expect them to do. 252 00:15:13,356 --> 00:15:17,916 Speaker 1: They're using chemicals, mixing and matching to imitate some of 253 00:15:17,916 --> 00:15:21,956 Speaker 1: the natural flavorings and foods, which which processed food companies 254 00:15:21,996 --> 00:15:25,076 Speaker 1: then can use to make their products. They're famous for 255 00:15:25,236 --> 00:15:30,676 Speaker 1: inventing pumpkin pie spice. That's scourge that spreads across the 256 00:15:30,716 --> 00:15:33,916 Speaker 1: grocery store every fall right charge of the planet, all 257 00:15:34,036 --> 00:15:37,556 Speaker 1: kinds of stuff from candy, the cookies too, who knows 258 00:15:37,636 --> 00:15:40,956 Speaker 1: what right well, they're using as many as eighty different 259 00:15:41,036 --> 00:15:44,676 Speaker 1: chemical ingredients to create that pumpkin pie spice. But I 260 00:15:44,756 --> 00:15:47,236 Speaker 1: spent some time with one of the flavor houses and 261 00:15:47,236 --> 00:15:50,916 Speaker 1: they explain to me that their even bigger mission for 262 00:15:50,956 --> 00:15:54,876 Speaker 1: the food companies is to constantly search for cheaper, less 263 00:15:54,916 --> 00:16:00,116 Speaker 1: expensive combinations of these chemicals because they know, again going 264 00:16:00,156 --> 00:16:01,996 Speaker 1: back to my favorite, the pop tarts, if they can 265 00:16:02,076 --> 00:16:04,316 Speaker 1: knock ten cents off the price of that box of 266 00:16:04,356 --> 00:16:06,676 Speaker 1: pop Tarts, we're going to be excited by that, and 267 00:16:06,716 --> 00:16:10,876 Speaker 1: they're gonna win in that compare editive marketplace called called 268 00:16:10,956 --> 00:16:14,996 Speaker 1: the grocery store. They also have scientists psychologists who working 269 00:16:15,556 --> 00:16:19,956 Speaker 1: working for them, who understand that many of us eat 270 00:16:20,036 --> 00:16:26,036 Speaker 1: for emotional reasons, not for true hunger pains, right, so 271 00:16:26,076 --> 00:16:30,556 Speaker 1: they spend a lot of time finding ways to push 272 00:16:30,596 --> 00:16:35,756 Speaker 1: those emotional buttons with the pandemic. I remember one Twitter 273 00:16:35,836 --> 00:16:38,316 Speaker 1: ad was for a couple of bags of chips that 274 00:16:38,436 --> 00:16:41,956 Speaker 1: sort of advertised itself by they were foot long doritos. 275 00:16:41,996 --> 00:16:44,876 Speaker 1: As I recall if you had like two stick figures 276 00:16:44,916 --> 00:16:49,556 Speaker 1: staying a safe six feet apart by measuring the distance 277 00:16:49,636 --> 00:16:55,276 Speaker 1: with six bags of doritos. So, whether it's fear or comfort, 278 00:16:56,036 --> 00:17:02,076 Speaker 1: or childhood memories or happiness, the companies know through their 279 00:17:02,116 --> 00:17:07,556 Speaker 1: psychological marketing expertise, how to punch those buttons and get 280 00:17:07,636 --> 00:17:16,556 Speaker 1: us to act. Let's talk about solutions. How do we 281 00:17:16,676 --> 00:17:18,476 Speaker 1: how do we solve this? Like? What are what are 282 00:17:18,476 --> 00:17:20,676 Speaker 1: some steps we could take to actually fix these problems? 283 00:17:21,036 --> 00:17:25,356 Speaker 1: Find anyway you possibly can to do as much cooking 284 00:17:25,516 --> 00:17:28,876 Speaker 1: from scratch as you can, and I think your listeners 285 00:17:28,916 --> 00:17:31,196 Speaker 1: would be amazed at sort of how they can change 286 00:17:31,276 --> 00:17:35,956 Speaker 1: your attitude about about food. Um, there are just like 287 00:17:36,396 --> 00:17:42,876 Speaker 1: so many people out there working on reinventing food, reinventing 288 00:17:42,996 --> 00:17:47,196 Speaker 1: our food environment with our health in mind. Some of 289 00:17:47,236 --> 00:17:50,116 Speaker 1: those people, by the way, have switched sides, having informer 290 00:17:50,196 --> 00:17:53,436 Speaker 1: executives at these big food process food companies, are now 291 00:17:53,516 --> 00:17:57,916 Speaker 1: working on behalf of farmers growing carrots and figuring out 292 00:17:57,996 --> 00:18:02,116 Speaker 1: like what's an exciting way to market carrots to kids? Um. 293 00:18:02,476 --> 00:18:04,436 Speaker 1: And so it's kind of just like sitting back and going, well, 294 00:18:04,436 --> 00:18:06,796 Speaker 1: how can we reclaim what we used to have here? 295 00:18:06,796 --> 00:18:09,476 Speaker 1: And how hard would that be? I have a kitchen, 296 00:18:09,516 --> 00:18:11,516 Speaker 1: I could cook my own food. I have a place 297 00:18:11,556 --> 00:18:14,356 Speaker 1: to go to get fresh produce, to get vegetables. I'm 298 00:18:14,356 --> 00:18:16,956 Speaker 1: not dealing with a food desert. A lot of the 299 00:18:16,996 --> 00:18:21,236 Speaker 1: convenience and the cheapness that comes with the processed foods 300 00:18:21,636 --> 00:18:23,956 Speaker 1: is really affecting the people who have the least amount 301 00:18:23,956 --> 00:18:27,676 Speaker 1: of resources. How can we help them? Oh? Absolutely, So 302 00:18:27,876 --> 00:18:31,796 Speaker 1: there are efforts underway, and they started in Philadelphia working 303 00:18:31,916 --> 00:18:36,996 Speaker 1: with corners stores to help them sell fresh produce, which 304 00:18:37,076 --> 00:18:39,396 Speaker 1: is a lot harder than you might than it might sound, 305 00:18:39,436 --> 00:18:42,316 Speaker 1: because I'm at the coolers that they have are owned 306 00:18:42,956 --> 00:18:45,076 Speaker 1: by the soda companies who don't want a bunch of 307 00:18:45,116 --> 00:18:47,276 Speaker 1: broccoli and their coolers, so figure out sort of how 308 00:18:47,356 --> 00:18:50,156 Speaker 1: to do that. So I love that aspect of it. 309 00:18:50,316 --> 00:18:52,396 Speaker 1: If I was king for a day, I would put 310 00:18:52,396 --> 00:18:55,436 Speaker 1: a garden in every school in this country. Getting the 311 00:18:55,516 --> 00:18:59,076 Speaker 1: kids excited about real food, getting their parents excited. But 312 00:18:59,196 --> 00:19:02,996 Speaker 1: then making that real food available to those parents at 313 00:19:02,996 --> 00:19:06,316 Speaker 1: a price that's affordable is going to mean rethinking the 314 00:19:06,476 --> 00:19:09,076 Speaker 1: entire farm system, because so much of the farm says 315 00:19:09,916 --> 00:19:14,156 Speaker 1: the vast majority of it is about making soybeans and 316 00:19:14,516 --> 00:19:19,156 Speaker 1: field corn cheaper and cheaper as ingredients for processed food. 317 00:19:19,356 --> 00:19:22,316 Speaker 1: And if you could flip that around and help the 318 00:19:22,396 --> 00:19:26,796 Speaker 1: agricultural system find ways to make broccoli less expensive and 319 00:19:26,876 --> 00:19:31,236 Speaker 1: broccoli sweeter and more enticing and succulent to people and fresher, 320 00:19:31,636 --> 00:19:34,396 Speaker 1: that's another essential thing that has to happen. How would 321 00:19:34,396 --> 00:19:37,516 Speaker 1: they do that? The groundwork is already there. I wrote 322 00:19:37,516 --> 00:19:40,196 Speaker 1: a story a few years ago for The Times where 323 00:19:40,476 --> 00:19:44,116 Speaker 1: I wrote about kids who'd left kind of the industrial 324 00:19:44,236 --> 00:19:47,156 Speaker 1: soybean farm, went to the city, got dissolution, came back 325 00:19:47,196 --> 00:19:49,836 Speaker 1: to the farm in the Midwest, but did want to 326 00:19:49,836 --> 00:19:54,476 Speaker 1: continue that and they started growing, you know, produce vegetables 327 00:19:54,596 --> 00:19:58,796 Speaker 1: and fruits and nuts, and one of the biggest things 328 00:19:58,876 --> 00:20:02,836 Speaker 1: they needed was help with marketing because they didn't have 329 00:20:02,916 --> 00:20:05,356 Speaker 1: the farmers markets that they had that they have in 330 00:20:05,356 --> 00:20:10,356 Speaker 1: Brooklyn and Portland and Seattle. So helping with marketing, But 331 00:20:10,596 --> 00:20:15,076 Speaker 1: basically you need a Department of Agriculture that's oriented much 332 00:20:15,116 --> 00:20:20,596 Speaker 1: more to our health and much less to industrial industrial farming. 333 00:20:21,756 --> 00:20:24,556 Speaker 1: Is there an incentive for the Department of Agriculture to 334 00:20:25,036 --> 00:20:28,836 Speaker 1: have us, you know, continue to be unhealthy and to 335 00:20:28,916 --> 00:20:31,036 Speaker 1: eat things that are not nutritious. Is there an incentive 336 00:20:31,076 --> 00:20:34,356 Speaker 1: that stops them from actually putting solutions that like you're 337 00:20:34,356 --> 00:20:37,956 Speaker 1: talking about, which all seem very simple into action. Yeah. 338 00:20:38,036 --> 00:20:41,356 Speaker 1: I think it's just the you know, the corporate farming 339 00:20:41,596 --> 00:20:48,036 Speaker 1: business has lobbyists who are incredibly powerful, and agriculture is 340 00:20:48,076 --> 00:20:51,916 Speaker 1: a powerful economic engine in the country. So I think 341 00:20:51,916 --> 00:20:56,356 Speaker 1: it's just that that synergy that's happened between the farmers 342 00:20:56,436 --> 00:21:00,316 Speaker 1: growing ingredients for processed food and the officials at the 343 00:21:00,316 --> 00:21:04,636 Speaker 1: Department of Agriculture working together on that, and it's just 344 00:21:04,996 --> 00:21:07,636 Speaker 1: it's been really, really difficult to sort of affect some 345 00:21:07,756 --> 00:21:11,716 Speaker 1: real meaningful change there. Are you optimistic about us being 346 00:21:11,756 --> 00:21:14,876 Speaker 1: able to turn this around? To break this type of 347 00:21:14,876 --> 00:21:19,676 Speaker 1: addiction on processed foods. Yeah, there's just so many people 348 00:21:19,796 --> 00:21:25,076 Speaker 1: working on so many different solutions to food and the 349 00:21:25,116 --> 00:21:27,476 Speaker 1: food environment that I can't I can't help it but 350 00:21:27,916 --> 00:21:30,876 Speaker 1: not be optimistic. A lot of people write about food 351 00:21:30,956 --> 00:21:34,316 Speaker 1: as critics, and obviously you have found the lane and 352 00:21:34,436 --> 00:21:36,516 Speaker 1: you stay in it. What made you want to write 353 00:21:36,516 --> 00:21:39,796 Speaker 1: about the food industry in this way? There have been 354 00:21:39,796 --> 00:21:43,956 Speaker 1: an outbreak of salmonella and peanuts being manufactured in the 355 00:21:44,036 --> 00:21:46,316 Speaker 1: southern United States, and I went down and took a look, 356 00:21:46,356 --> 00:21:51,076 Speaker 1: and it opened this incredible window on this processed food 357 00:21:51,116 --> 00:21:54,716 Speaker 1: industry because many of these big companies were using these 358 00:21:54,756 --> 00:21:58,676 Speaker 1: tainted peanuts as ingredients in their food products, and they 359 00:21:58,716 --> 00:22:01,556 Speaker 1: had lost control of the food chain. So weeks and 360 00:22:01,596 --> 00:22:03,796 Speaker 1: weeks were going by, people were falling sickle over the 361 00:22:03,796 --> 00:22:06,916 Speaker 1: country and they couldn't figure out if those peanuts were 362 00:22:06,996 --> 00:22:09,356 Speaker 1: in their products or not. So that's kind of the 363 00:22:09,396 --> 00:22:12,636 Speaker 1: first thing that got me really really interested in this 364 00:22:12,756 --> 00:22:16,196 Speaker 1: industry and what it was doing to us. And then 365 00:22:16,316 --> 00:22:18,716 Speaker 1: one of my best sources, who tests meat for E coal, 366 00:22:18,756 --> 00:22:21,116 Speaker 1: I said to be you know, Michael, as tragic as 367 00:22:21,156 --> 00:22:25,556 Speaker 1: these incidents of contamination or you should really look at 368 00:22:25,596 --> 00:22:28,916 Speaker 1: what my industry is intentionally adding to its products over 369 00:22:28,956 --> 00:22:31,956 Speaker 1: which it has absolute control. He was worried about all 370 00:22:31,956 --> 00:22:34,676 Speaker 1: the salt going into process meat, but that led me 371 00:22:34,716 --> 00:22:38,996 Speaker 1: to look at sugar and fats as well, and then 372 00:22:39,076 --> 00:22:41,716 Speaker 1: more recently on the industry's ability to sort of use 373 00:22:41,716 --> 00:22:51,476 Speaker 1: our own basic instincts against us. What would you recommend 374 00:22:51,476 --> 00:22:55,236 Speaker 1: to our listeners to help solve this problem. So it 375 00:22:55,316 --> 00:22:59,956 Speaker 1: kind of depends where you are on the spectrum of 376 00:23:00,156 --> 00:23:04,316 Speaker 1: losing control to these food products. Obviously, if you're binge eating, 377 00:23:04,876 --> 00:23:07,836 Speaker 1: you're going to be dealing with professional helping. Is that 378 00:23:07,916 --> 00:23:10,396 Speaker 1: they're really really difficult thing to do with. I mean, 379 00:23:10,396 --> 00:23:13,356 Speaker 1: if you're somebody who gets like that three pm craving 380 00:23:13,436 --> 00:23:17,356 Speaker 1: for a cookie, one of the lessons that we've learned 381 00:23:17,396 --> 00:23:20,676 Speaker 1: from the world of drug addiction is that that craving 382 00:23:21,036 --> 00:23:26,316 Speaker 1: comes on so strong and wipes out your free will, 383 00:23:26,636 --> 00:23:29,876 Speaker 1: your ability to sort of say no, that you pretty 384 00:23:29,956 --> 00:23:31,916 Speaker 1: much have to find a way to get ahead of 385 00:23:31,956 --> 00:23:35,596 Speaker 1: the craving. So, whether your strategy is to get up 386 00:23:35,596 --> 00:23:38,436 Speaker 1: its stretch or call a friend, or try to eat 387 00:23:38,476 --> 00:23:41,996 Speaker 1: something else that's healthier, like a handful of nuts, you've 388 00:23:42,076 --> 00:23:44,436 Speaker 1: pretty much need to be doing that at two fifty 389 00:23:44,516 --> 00:23:48,916 Speaker 1: five in order to word off that three PM craving 390 00:23:49,516 --> 00:23:53,316 Speaker 1: are losing control. It's not our fault, this is not 391 00:23:53,516 --> 00:23:57,116 Speaker 1: on us. These products are engineered in a way that's 392 00:23:57,236 --> 00:24:03,316 Speaker 1: designed to get us to lose control over our willpower, 393 00:24:03,516 --> 00:24:06,196 Speaker 1: over our ability to say noes. And so that's what 394 00:24:06,236 --> 00:24:09,756 Speaker 1: they're engineered to do. And knowing that, I think is 395 00:24:09,756 --> 00:24:13,676 Speaker 1: a really fundamental point here figuring out how we use 396 00:24:13,756 --> 00:24:19,036 Speaker 1: individuals with strategies we can take to regain control. Do 397 00:24:19,116 --> 00:24:22,076 Speaker 1: we need to take these companies to task, because there's 398 00:24:22,076 --> 00:24:24,956 Speaker 1: one thing with Philip Morris where we did and that 399 00:24:25,036 --> 00:24:27,276 Speaker 1: kind of resulted in kind of a shift in our 400 00:24:27,316 --> 00:24:31,156 Speaker 1: attitudes towards smoking. At what point can we feel empowered 401 00:24:31,196 --> 00:24:33,796 Speaker 1: to say, hey, you guys should stop doing this and 402 00:24:33,916 --> 00:24:37,076 Speaker 1: help us. Yeah. No, that's so interesting, askup because there 403 00:24:37,116 --> 00:24:38,876 Speaker 1: is an attorney who used to work for one of 404 00:24:38,876 --> 00:24:41,916 Speaker 1: the big food companies who came up with this idea 405 00:24:41,956 --> 00:24:44,036 Speaker 1: of going after them the same way that we went 406 00:24:44,076 --> 00:24:47,236 Speaker 1: after big tobacco, because if you remember, the state attorneys 407 00:24:47,236 --> 00:24:50,396 Speaker 1: general sued big tobacco not because smoking was evil, but 408 00:24:50,516 --> 00:24:54,236 Speaker 1: simply to recover the massive healthcare costs that they were encurring. 409 00:24:54,276 --> 00:24:57,316 Speaker 1: Treating people were getting sick cancer from smoking. Right, So 410 00:24:57,356 --> 00:24:59,676 Speaker 1: this attorney came up with the same idea, why don't 411 00:24:59,716 --> 00:25:02,396 Speaker 1: we go after a big food and get them to 412 00:25:02,636 --> 00:25:07,356 Speaker 1: pay for this hidden cost, hidden hit, huge hidden hit 413 00:25:07,436 --> 00:25:11,916 Speaker 1: to the state's healthcare budgets. And so he sent this 414 00:25:12,236 --> 00:25:14,956 Speaker 1: exquisitive proposal out to seventeen I think it was a 415 00:25:14,996 --> 00:25:19,156 Speaker 1: state attorneys general, and he got not a single response. 416 00:25:19,196 --> 00:25:20,956 Speaker 1: And you know, I asked him what he thought the 417 00:25:21,036 --> 00:25:23,196 Speaker 1: problem was, and he said, you know, I think a 418 00:25:23,236 --> 00:25:26,516 Speaker 1: lot of these issues go in cycles, and there's a moment, 419 00:25:26,636 --> 00:25:29,956 Speaker 1: and tobacco in the nineties was just kind of a moment, 420 00:25:30,076 --> 00:25:35,156 Speaker 1: especially when they started acknowledging that smoking was addictive. Food 421 00:25:35,236 --> 00:25:38,076 Speaker 1: may not be in that moment right now, and so 422 00:25:38,116 --> 00:25:39,916 Speaker 1: he was sort of a patient guy, thinking, well, maybe 423 00:25:39,916 --> 00:25:42,236 Speaker 1: in a few years we could try again. I think 424 00:25:42,276 --> 00:25:46,276 Speaker 1: the other fundamental difference here, though, is that we've been 425 00:25:46,436 --> 00:25:49,596 Speaker 1: led and we've grown up to see these food products 426 00:25:49,636 --> 00:25:54,556 Speaker 1: as being full of cartoon characters and joy and happiness. So, 427 00:25:54,796 --> 00:25:57,636 Speaker 1: I mean, can you imagine there being like a march 428 00:25:57,876 --> 00:26:03,356 Speaker 1: through the streets of Brooklyn protesting Oreo cookies? I can't, 429 00:26:03,356 --> 00:26:05,196 Speaker 1: And I think it's kind of for that reason that 430 00:26:05,876 --> 00:26:08,156 Speaker 1: most of us still think when we walk into the 431 00:26:08,156 --> 00:26:11,436 Speaker 1: grocery store, we're dealing with companies that are kind of 432 00:26:11,476 --> 00:26:16,876 Speaker 1: fundamentally there to help improve our health. And until we 433 00:26:16,956 --> 00:26:19,956 Speaker 1: kind of come to grips with the reality that that 434 00:26:20,156 --> 00:26:22,876 Speaker 1: is not the case with many of these companies and 435 00:26:23,076 --> 00:26:25,276 Speaker 1: so many of these products, then I think that we 436 00:26:25,316 --> 00:26:28,316 Speaker 1: as a society, you know, aren't quite ready yet to 437 00:26:28,396 --> 00:26:31,436 Speaker 1: cause the kind of you know, the kind of momentous 438 00:26:31,516 --> 00:26:34,396 Speaker 1: change that can really cause this industry to turn around 439 00:26:34,436 --> 00:26:39,476 Speaker 1: or change its ways. Well, thanks so much for being 440 00:26:39,516 --> 00:26:41,796 Speaker 1: at our show. Thank you so much for your time. 441 00:26:41,916 --> 00:26:49,076 Speaker 1: It's so fantastic. Michael Moss is a Pulitzer Prize winning 442 00:26:49,076 --> 00:26:52,836 Speaker 1: investigative journalist and New York Times best selling author. His 443 00:26:52,956 --> 00:26:56,076 Speaker 1: most recent book is called Hooked Food, Free Will, and 444 00:26:56,156 --> 00:26:59,476 Speaker 1: How the Food Giants Exploit Our Addictions. To learn more 445 00:26:59,476 --> 00:27:01,996 Speaker 1: about the processed food industry, check out the links in 446 00:27:01,996 --> 00:27:04,876 Speaker 1: our show notes. Next week, on Solvable, I'm talking with 447 00:27:04,916 --> 00:27:08,716 Speaker 1: fashion designer, influencer and writer Gabby greg also known as 448 00:27:08,796 --> 00:27:12,516 Speaker 1: Gabby Fresh, about improving our relationship with our bodies. That 449 00:27:12,676 --> 00:27:16,796 Speaker 1: is a great conversation. Definitely come back to that. Softball 450 00:27:16,956 --> 00:27:21,596 Speaker 1: is produced by Jocelyn Frank, Research by David Jack, Booking 451 00:27:21,836 --> 00:27:25,596 Speaker 1: by Lisa Dunn. Our managing producer is Sasha Matthias, and 452 00:27:25,676 --> 00:27:29,796 Speaker 1: our executive producer is Mio LaBelle. I'm Ronald Young Jr. 453 00:27:30,516 --> 00:27:31,316 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.