1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,160 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from House Top 2 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 1: Works Nott. Come hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline. And last time on Stuff I've 4 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:21,360 Speaker 1: Never Told You, we talked all about anxiety. What a 5 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:24,599 Speaker 1: delightful romp it was through all of mine and Caroline's 6 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 1: mental neurosis. Yeah, so welcome to part two of that perfectionism. Yeah. Um, 7 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:37,040 Speaker 1: this was so fascinating to learn about Caroline, because, friends, 8 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 1: perfectionism is not what you think it is. Yeah, similar 9 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:46,160 Speaker 1: to how we busted Smiths in our c D episode 10 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:47,960 Speaker 1: where we were saying O c D is not just 11 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 1: keeping a clean closet. Perfectionism is not just the desire 12 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:55,240 Speaker 1: to excel, to do really well, to have that clean 13 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 1: closet it is. It goes a little bit deeper than that. Yeah, 14 00:00:59,840 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 1: and it's very much linked to issues like O c D, anxiety, depression, 15 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:07,839 Speaker 1: and other things that we're going to talk about. And 16 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:13,640 Speaker 1: there's also this underlying assumption that women are perfectionists. Women 17 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:17,640 Speaker 1: are likelier to try to be perfect in all things, 18 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 1: and we were trying to find whether that is actually 19 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 1: the case or whether that stereotype is just completely misunderstanding 20 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:30,959 Speaker 1: what Perfectionism really is, because it's another one of those 21 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 1: terms that's used very casually to refer to things that 22 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:42,040 Speaker 1: it is actually not. Well, yeah, and it's used whereas 23 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:45,559 Speaker 1: anxiety is something like I have anxiety and I would 24 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 1: like to overcome it, whether that's generalized anxiety disorder or 25 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:50,920 Speaker 1: like panic disorder, or whether it's just your feeling anxious 26 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 1: before a test. Perfectionism, on the other hand, is almost 27 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 1: sometimes used as like a humble brad, like, so, I've 28 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:01,360 Speaker 1: just got to bank all the cupcakes for the p 29 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:04,720 Speaker 1: t A meeting because I'm just a perfectionist. All right, Janice, 30 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 1: we know you have a lot of time, and you 31 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:08,919 Speaker 1: you just you want to do this in your cupcakes 32 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:12,119 Speaker 1: are so perfect. Or when Janice isn't a job interview 33 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 1: and you get that horrible job interview question of you know, 34 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 1: what's your biggest fault in life, Janice responds, well, I'm 35 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:23,000 Speaker 1: a perfectionist. Well, we hope not now that we know 36 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 1: more about what perfectionism actually is and that it has 37 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:28,800 Speaker 1: links to all sorts of terrible things and it's a 38 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 1: really really unhealthy pattern, because I mean, if you think 39 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:36,440 Speaker 1: about it in pop culture, you have sort of both 40 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 1: ends of the spectrum where you have Natalie Portman as 41 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 1: Nina in Black Swan, where it's whoa that is super scary, 42 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:46,960 Speaker 1: and then on the comedic end of the spectrum, you 43 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:50,679 Speaker 1: have someone like Monica Geller in Friends. Although I don't 44 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 1: know why I needed to give her last name, everyone 45 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:56,520 Speaker 1: knows her just as Monica on Friends, where you're a perfectionist, 46 00:02:56,960 --> 00:03:00,120 Speaker 1: Yes i am. I'm terrified I'm going to fail. I 47 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 1: don't mention Geller and everyone will hate me. Um. But 48 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 1: you know she has all these quirks where she has 49 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 1: to clean all the time and she's very intentional in 50 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 1: her cooking ha ha ha. And its attitudes about characters 51 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:20,799 Speaker 1: like Monica Geller that lead people to feel like perfectionism 52 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 1: is totally socially acceptable. It's not a mental health condition 53 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:26,320 Speaker 1: that you might need help with or that could signal 54 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 1: a deeper mental health condition like actual pathological anxiety or depression. Um, 55 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 1: it's just you being like super driven, right, You're just 56 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 1: a Tracy Flick. That's it exactly. So, first of play 57 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 1: out what we're actually talking about when we're talking about perfectionism, because, 58 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 1: like we've said, what it is not is just setting 59 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 1: high standards for yourself, just wanting to excel, being organized, 60 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 1: having some ambition in life. Yeah, so what it really 61 00:03:56,560 --> 00:04:00,320 Speaker 1: is is this drive to be perfect. I can't enough 62 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 1: italics and bold and underline on the word perfect, or 63 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: at least the drive to seem perfect to other people, 64 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:12,680 Speaker 1: because inside you feel like an impost, like a failure, 65 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:15,640 Speaker 1: like this ugly person inside and out that I need 66 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:18,479 Speaker 1: to do anything I can to portray myself as this 67 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:22,200 Speaker 1: shiny perfect person. And as the amazing Brine Brown, who 68 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 1: often writes for a magazine puts it, perfectionism is a 69 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:31,039 Speaker 1: self destructive and addictive belief system that fuels this primary thought. 70 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:35,560 Speaker 1: If I look perfect, live perfectly, and do everything perfectly, 71 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:41,279 Speaker 1: I can avoid or minimize the painful feelings of shame, judgment, 72 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 1: and blame. And another way that it was put that 73 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 1: jumped out to me Caroline, was that perfectionism, while it 74 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 1: is so gold driven, it doesn't focus on success. It 75 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 1: only focuses on failure because you're ultimately driven by failure, 76 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:01,760 Speaker 1: Because why do you need to be perfect because you're 77 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 1: terrified that you will fail? Right, which is so much 78 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 1: of the conversation when you get into imposter syndrome, which 79 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 1: we've done an episode on um in terms of being 80 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:17,799 Speaker 1: driven by I'm such a fake, I'm so dumb and unaccomplished, 81 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:20,359 Speaker 1: and I need to work so hard to show that 82 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 1: I can pull this off basically. And some researchers distinguished though, 83 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 1: between what they term normal or adaptive perfectionism and neurotic 84 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 1: or maladaptive perfectionism, and they say that the adaptive type 85 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:39,599 Speaker 1: propels you forward. Maybe this is, you know, more of 86 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:45,359 Speaker 1: a synonym to being very goal oriented, whereas maladaptive creates 87 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 1: that stress over failure. It's the stuff that Renee Brown 88 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 1: is talking about. Yeah, but today we're focusing in on 89 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 1: the type that is disruptive to functioning. Although, as we'll 90 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 1: get into a little bit later, a lot of people 91 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:02,360 Speaker 1: would argue that there is no adaptive versus maladaptive, that 92 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 1: perfectionism is purely maladaptive, that there's nothing adaptive about wanting 93 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:12,839 Speaker 1: to be perfect, because there's no such thing as perfect. 94 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:15,919 Speaker 1: And when you think about what perfect really means in 95 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:19,280 Speaker 1: this context, it has so many different layers. You have 96 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 1: concerns about making mistakes, You have your own personal standards, 97 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:30,320 Speaker 1: you have doubts about your actions or abilities, organization, parental expectations, criticism, 98 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 1: things that people say rudely on social media. Well, I 99 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:38,040 Speaker 1: mean those are the literal dimensions of this condition known 100 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:41,280 Speaker 1: as perfectionism. Once you get beyond just like the colloquial 101 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 1: like oh, I spent all night on those cupcakes. I'm 102 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:47,120 Speaker 1: such a perfectionist. Once you get past that to the 103 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 1: actual debilitating stuff and you're reading studies about it, things 104 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 1: like concerns over making mistakes are cited in terms of 105 00:06:56,040 --> 00:07:00,080 Speaker 1: linking perfectionism to O C D anxiety and depression and 106 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:04,359 Speaker 1: even suicidal tendencies. And so yeah, like I'm concerned about 107 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:06,800 Speaker 1: making mistakes. I don't want to like do something stupid 108 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 1: when I'm driving, or like put the wrong word in 109 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 1: the podcast notes FLPs, I just drove my car into 110 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 1: a wall. Has happens. Um, this concern, this perfectionist concern 111 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 1: over mistakes is something that is debilitating. That it is, 112 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 1: like Kristen said that being driven by failure idea, and 113 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 1: it also manifests in different types, not that they're mutually exclusive. 114 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 1: And this also was really illuminating for me to read about. Um, 115 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 1: you have socially prescribed perfectionism, which is the belief that 116 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 1: others will value you only if you're perfect, and psychologist 117 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 1: Gordon Flett says that these people feel, quote, the better 118 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 1: I do, the better I'm expected to do. So rather 119 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 1: than like you bring the great cupcakes and everybody congratulates 120 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:00,200 Speaker 1: to you, it's like, oh God, well, now I've got 121 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 1: to make like a six tiered p t a cake 122 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 1: for the next meeting. And this is a little bit 123 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 1: of a side note, but this also reminds me of 124 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 1: what we were talking about a little bit. In our 125 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 1: anxiety episode of how UM. One researcher named Gene Twinge 126 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:21,640 Speaker 1: sites our shift from intrinsic values to extrinsic values as 127 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:25,119 Speaker 1: a reason why anxiety might be more on the rise, 128 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 1: and that whole socially prescribed perfectionism seems very much linked 129 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:33,640 Speaker 1: to extrinsic values of how do I look to other 130 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 1: people right? How do I present myself absolutely well. Another 131 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:40,960 Speaker 1: type is the self oriented perfectionism, and this is the 132 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 1: internally motivated desire to be perfect. And there is a 133 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 1: debate as Flett talks about the psychologist Gordon Flett talks 134 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:52,960 Speaker 1: about over whether this is a risk factor for other 135 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 1: psychological disorders or a disorder in and of itself, and 136 00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 1: that seems to be the big conversation around perfectionism and 137 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 1: general Is it a disorder? Yes, it's debilitating, but is 138 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:06,440 Speaker 1: it debilitating and doesn't exist because you have something like 139 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:12,200 Speaker 1: generalized anxiety disorder or depression. And there's also other oriented perfectionism, 140 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 1: which a very close friend of mine struggles with a lot. 141 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:19,439 Speaker 1: It's the tendency to demand perfection from friends, family, coworkers, 142 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:22,840 Speaker 1: and others. These are the people and I say this 143 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:25,560 Speaker 1: because I repeat this mondra to myself all the time. 144 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 1: These are the people who need to be saying, not 145 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:30,960 Speaker 1: my monkey, not my circus, Like, don't be so concerned 146 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:33,480 Speaker 1: about what other people are doing or saying, or wearing 147 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:37,319 Speaker 1: or whatever. Be more concerned with yourself. And as you 148 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 1: can imagine, this can be super damaging to relationships. And 149 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:42,439 Speaker 1: when I said that I have a close friend with this, 150 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:45,320 Speaker 1: I literally wasn't talking about myself. I do have a 151 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 1: friend who struggles mightily with this, is in therapy and 152 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:52,880 Speaker 1: talks about it a lot, and it really has affected 153 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:56,720 Speaker 1: her relationships other people. Because yeah, if you are super 154 00:09:56,800 --> 00:10:00,199 Speaker 1: driven and you expect a lot from yourself, it can 155 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:02,320 Speaker 1: be so damaging. You need to learn to practice self 156 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 1: compassion and self forgiveness. But when it's directed outward at 157 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 1: other people, well that just means that nobody's going to 158 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 1: want to invite you to their party. And then what 159 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 1: will you do on a Friday night? And then what 160 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:15,959 Speaker 1: are you gonna do with all those cupcakes? Janis this 161 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:18,760 Speaker 1: lighting up? Janis is gonna stay in and eat them 162 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:23,120 Speaker 1: while watching The Gilmore Girls on Netflix. But let's let's 163 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:26,040 Speaker 1: stop talking about Janis. I'm starting to feel bad. Let's 164 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 1: let's talk about me instead. Okay, we should probably start 165 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:35,240 Speaker 1: talking about some of the hallmarks of perfectionism, because we've 166 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:37,320 Speaker 1: told you what it's not and what it is, but 167 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:41,199 Speaker 1: we need to illustrate it with deeply, deeply personal stories 168 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 1: because perfectionism the hallmarks are really that fear of failure, 169 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 1: that fear of vulnerability, because no true perfectionist wants to 170 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:57,360 Speaker 1: be openly vulnerable or fail openly because that would totally 171 00:10:57,400 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 1: shatter their fragile send of perfection that they're trying to 172 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:04,280 Speaker 1: convey to the rest of the world. Yeah, I mean 173 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 1: I've I've personally struggled with those two things big time 174 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 1: in my life. The whole If you're a failure, Um, 175 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 1: you've mentioned that this is reminiscent for you of really 176 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:19,840 Speaker 1: being a grade A plus driven when you were in school, 177 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:23,319 Speaker 1: and it reminds me of when I was homeschooled as 178 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:26,720 Speaker 1: a kid. I hated it if my mom graded my 179 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 1: paper because she was my teacher and my principle. Um. 180 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 1: I hated if she hated it if she graded my 181 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 1: tests or papers with a red pen, because it was 182 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 1: like pointing out my failures even bigger and bolder, and 183 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:45,320 Speaker 1: I would freak out about it. It makes it so 184 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 1: easy to see on the page though. Yeah I read 185 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:52,559 Speaker 1: red pen as you are dumb. Well, that's become sort 186 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:54,719 Speaker 1: of an issue in schools nowadays, right, Like I've heard 187 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:56,840 Speaker 1: about teachers who have to stop using red pens because 188 00:11:56,840 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 1: it hurts kids feelings. Yeah. See, Thankfully my mom was 189 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 1: smart about it, and she was like, Kristen, we need 190 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:06,400 Speaker 1: to have a talk because I don't this doesn't seem 191 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 1: like a healthy pattern. You need to accept a red 192 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:12,120 Speaker 1: pin because if you can't accept a red pen, then 193 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:14,600 Speaker 1: life's going to be a little bit tough. Although I 194 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:17,600 Speaker 1: think that she started using like purple and orange, she 195 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:19,640 Speaker 1: would switch up the color. I think sometimes just like 196 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:22,440 Speaker 1: I don't know, so it didn't look like the page 197 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 1: was bleeding, the page is having a period menstruating pages. Um. Yeah, 198 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:33,319 Speaker 1: I also am super guilty of like skipping out on 199 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:37,160 Speaker 1: what could potentially be a fun, enriching or rewarding experience 200 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:42,960 Speaker 1: because I'm worried about failing or looking stupid, or being 201 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:48,679 Speaker 1: vulnerable or being mediocre. Um. And Similarly, I am super 202 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 1: guilty of one of the giant hallmarks of perfectionism, which 203 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:54,960 Speaker 1: is procrastination. And again that's not a humble brag. It 204 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:57,320 Speaker 1: really drives me insane about myself that I'm a huge 205 00:12:57,320 --> 00:13:02,240 Speaker 1: procrastinator because if this is especially true if it's like 206 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:05,120 Speaker 1: a creative endeavor, whether it's in work or outside of work, 207 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 1: Because the thing is when you're just like, uh, you know, 208 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:10,880 Speaker 1: if I'm just editing an article for the House to 209 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:13,240 Speaker 1: Works website, like it's hard for me to fail at that. 210 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 1: I'm an editor. I'm good with words like how I 211 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 1: do is very quantifiable. It's easy to quantify um when 212 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 1: it is something that's more creative that requires me to 213 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:26,400 Speaker 1: use um a different skill set than something that's just 214 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 1: very cut and dry. All of a sudden, well, I 215 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 1: could be vulnerable. Someone could judge me for this and 216 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:35,160 Speaker 1: tell me that I'm stupid, and so that leads to 217 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:38,040 Speaker 1: this tendency to like either put it off or just 218 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:40,080 Speaker 1: assume I'm going to do terribly, so I just won't 219 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:43,320 Speaker 1: try it. There's also the whole thing about being plagued 220 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 1: by what ifs and should that is so paralyzing, and 221 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 1: that leads to this regimented nous of the should, like 222 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:53,320 Speaker 1: this should happen in my therapist is always going why 223 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:55,880 Speaker 1: should it? Why do you have should there? Well, I 224 00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 1: don't know, therapist, I'm just a perfectionist. And then you 225 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 1: realize your therapist is Janice. No. But quickly going back 226 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 1: to the procrastination thing, that was something I did not 227 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:10,600 Speaker 1: expect to read about at all, because we would assume 228 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:14,959 Speaker 1: that perfectionists have no problem with procrastination because they're getting 229 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:18,800 Speaker 1: their work done there, going over and above all the time. 230 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:21,360 Speaker 1: But it makes so much sense that they are very 231 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 1: much linked. And I totally experienced that if there's like 232 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 1: some big creative project that I want to do, my 233 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 1: perfectionism will cause me to procrastinate because it's like, well, 234 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:36,120 Speaker 1: what but what if I can't make this wonderful idea 235 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:39,400 Speaker 1: come to fruition? Well, yeah, I mean you're so worried 236 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:42,640 Speaker 1: about getting judged and failing, and that can breed a 237 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 1: lot of judgmental stuff about other people and other things. 238 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:51,120 Speaker 1: I mean, dude, roommate, Hi, you don't listen to this 239 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 1: episode or this podcast. I means it's okay if I 240 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:57,040 Speaker 1: talk about you. You know, dude roommate was super judgmental. 241 00:14:57,120 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 1: And I really think it's stemmed from a place in 242 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:03,400 Speaker 1: him of being so hard on himself, so critical of 243 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 1: himself that when you're just trying to take that pressure off, 244 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 1: you can tend to focus it outward. So where does 245 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 1: it come from? Then? Can I Can we just blame 246 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:17,120 Speaker 1: our parents yea, for raising to be perfectionistic. I actually 247 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 1: don't blame my parents for that. My parents were always 248 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 1: like really encouraging and empowering of like if you can read, 249 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 1: you can do anything. Um. And I don't feel like 250 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:28,840 Speaker 1: it came from them. I felt like it was very 251 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 1: much like internally driven in me. But parents can absolutely 252 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 1: pass it on to their kids, and not surprisingly, this 253 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:40,720 Speaker 1: is something that researchers have looked into. Well. Yeah, and 254 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 1: in terms of the passing it down to your kids, 255 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:45,880 Speaker 1: I mean, this can be like you are Janice and 256 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:49,680 Speaker 1: you're super like cupcake perfection driven, and your kids pick 257 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:51,280 Speaker 1: up on that and it's like, oh, well I need 258 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 1: to I need to perform too. But it can be 259 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 1: like the research that we were reading, it can be 260 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 1: as small and as simple as a cocked eyebrow when 261 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 1: you bring home a B instead of an A. And 262 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:05,920 Speaker 1: that's not to say that your parents are terrible people. 263 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:08,920 Speaker 1: If that happened to you, that could seriously be just like, 264 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 1: I just want to encourage you to do better and 265 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 1: live your best life as Oprah if Oprah is your 266 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 1: mom would have you do um. But to a child 267 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:22,600 Speaker 1: who's already absorbing everything around herself like that can be 268 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:25,080 Speaker 1: really damaging, like, oh my god, I earned the eyebrow? 269 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:29,280 Speaker 1: What did I do right? Because kids, when we're kids, 270 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 1: we take these small things and we don't have that 271 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:37,120 Speaker 1: many tools in our brains and our experiences to put 272 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:42,120 Speaker 1: context in nuance to that cocked eyebrow. So we then associate, oh, 273 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 1: the B with a cocked eyebrow. That correlation becomes a 274 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 1: causation and a pattern ensues. Yeah, And so it's no 275 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 1: surprise then that perfectionistic tendencies often start in childhood, whether 276 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 1: it is because of the expectations of your parents or 277 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 1: your teachers. Parental criticism and even the perception by kids 278 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:06,239 Speaker 1: that their parents and teachers have high expectations for them 279 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 1: to be perfect is enough to send someone on a 280 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:11,320 Speaker 1: perfectionist expiral. And I was talking to Christian about this 281 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:15,119 Speaker 1: when we were researching, because I was like, well, you know, 282 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:17,239 Speaker 1: I have a tendency to blame my parents for this. 283 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:23,000 Speaker 1: But my parents were very um in psychology terms, um indulgent, permissive. 284 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:25,960 Speaker 1: They expected a lot of me, They expected me to 285 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:29,080 Speaker 1: do very well. But they were also like super encouraging, 286 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:32,200 Speaker 1: do your best, be who you are, reach for the stars, 287 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 1: all that good stuff. But I went to a very 288 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 1: very strict, very challenging private school growing up all through school, 289 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:45,840 Speaker 1: and you do have those super high expectations from teachers 290 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:48,399 Speaker 1: to the point where like getting the lower grade, the 291 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:51,400 Speaker 1: slightly lower grade even is enough to be like, I've 292 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:55,760 Speaker 1: let everyone down. I am so dumb. And so parenting styles, 293 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:59,160 Speaker 1: I mean, we're talking about teachers, but parenting styles are 294 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:02,320 Speaker 1: obviously so important. And this is coming from a paper 295 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 1: by David Hibbert and Gail Walton from they found that 296 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:12,160 Speaker 1: when you combine demands and lack of warmth with expectations 297 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 1: that helps create and foster perfectionisms, and that idea of 298 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:21,439 Speaker 1: things interacting to create perfectionism or perfectionism interacting with something 299 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:25,000 Speaker 1: else to create things like anxiety and depression. That's also 300 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:27,639 Speaker 1: a huge key to this topic because it's often not 301 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 1: occurring on its own well. So Hibbert and Walton were 302 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 1: saying that the parents who might have like my parents, 303 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 1: high demands on their kids to do well in school, 304 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:42,919 Speaker 1: but who also have high warmth foster that adaptive version 305 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:48,120 Speaker 1: of perfectionism that possibly they create self motivation in their kids, 306 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 1: which is great, But it's those parents who have high 307 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:55,320 Speaker 1: demands on their kids but no warmth who might be 308 00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:59,560 Speaker 1: the problem causers because they say, this whole high demand, 309 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 1: lack of warmth thing signals to your kid that they 310 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:05,879 Speaker 1: might not be loved if they screw up, and this, 311 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:10,320 Speaker 1: they argue, is what tends to foster that maladaptive perfectionism, 312 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:12,879 Speaker 1: the kind that can disrupt your life well, and it 313 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:16,480 Speaker 1: can also backfire because these kids might not even try 314 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:20,119 Speaker 1: to take on challenges, they might just be more anxious 315 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:23,920 Speaker 1: or overwhelmed by them instead. And that link was found 316 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:27,399 Speaker 1: to be more pronounced in boys, which is notable um. 317 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 1: And then finally you have neglectful parents that also foster 318 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:34,640 Speaker 1: that maladaptive perfectionism because it's the whole thing of, well, 319 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:38,159 Speaker 1: maybe if I can just really overachieve, I'll win some 320 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:41,280 Speaker 1: attention or love or control my environment in some kind 321 00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 1: of way. But when we're talking about adaptive versus maladaptive, 322 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:48,439 Speaker 1: as you mentioned earlier, Caroline, some argue that there is 323 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:54,320 Speaker 1: no adaptive about this, that this kind of cycle is 324 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:57,439 Speaker 1: not motivating us to actually do better. And this is 325 00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:01,159 Speaker 1: something that Dr Flett is adamant about, and he was 326 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:06,480 Speaker 1: quoted in an article in the American Psychological Association's Monitor 327 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 1: magazine and he said, I don't think needing to be 328 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 1: perfect isn't any way adaptive. People make that claim and 329 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 1: they'll just ignore the fairly large literature that says it's 330 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:20,159 Speaker 1: a vulnerability factor for unipolar depression, anorexia, and suicide. And 331 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:23,879 Speaker 1: I was like, whoa, Dr Flat, what's going on here? 332 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:30,639 Speaker 1: And that's the thing. Perfectionism is very closely intertwined with 333 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 1: other mental health issues because researchers have found links to anxiety, depression, 334 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:41,920 Speaker 1: suicidal tendency o c D, and eating disorders. Oh suddenly, perfectionism. 335 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:45,200 Speaker 1: Ain't so perfect. It ain't so perfect. And we'll talk 336 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:48,080 Speaker 1: more about janison or cupcakes when we come right back 337 00:20:48,240 --> 00:21:02,680 Speaker 1: from a quick break. So Kristen has mentioned a lot 338 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:08,720 Speaker 1: of links between perfectionism and several mental health conditions. For instance, 339 00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:13,000 Speaker 1: socially prescribed perfectionism that's the time where you're so worried 340 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:14,800 Speaker 1: about what other people think of you, you want to 341 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:18,159 Speaker 1: look perfect to other people. UM has been associated with 342 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 1: depression and other problems, including, like Kristen said, suicide and 343 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 1: Dr Flett said, I think the reason for that is 344 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:29,560 Speaker 1: that socially prescribed perfectionism has an element of pressure combined 345 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:32,920 Speaker 1: with a sense of helplessness and hopelessness, because if you're 346 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:37,520 Speaker 1: a perfectionist by definition, you never feel perfect. You never 347 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:40,080 Speaker 1: feel like you get there, like you accomplish what you 348 00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:43,240 Speaker 1: set out to accomplish, like you always need to be 349 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 1: working at it, making it better, whatever it is, whether 350 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:49,280 Speaker 1: it's yourself, your appearance, or your job or your relationships. 351 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:53,919 Speaker 1: And also those attitudes that are wrapped up in perfectionism, 352 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:56,720 Speaker 1: of guilt, shame, and the whole never enough thing can 353 00:21:56,840 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 1: lead to depression. Research has also shown the perfectionism is 354 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 1: a big mediator between the comorbid conditions of bipolar spectrum 355 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:10,640 Speaker 1: disorders and anxiety and depressive symptoms. So basically, these folks 356 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:14,080 Speaker 1: already tend to view the world from a more negative 357 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:17,800 Speaker 1: perspective and christin you know how we mentioned those dimensions 358 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:22,160 Speaker 1: of perfectionism earlier in the podcast, the things like concern 359 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:26,399 Speaker 1: over mistakes and abilities, things like that. What's interesting about 360 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:30,679 Speaker 1: perfectionism is that all of those concerns and worries and 361 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:36,159 Speaker 1: frets that define what perfectionism is aren't consistent across people, 362 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:39,199 Speaker 1: which makes sense, everybody's different, but they're also not consistent 363 00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:43,280 Speaker 1: across people who have the comorbid things like anxiety or 364 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 1: depression or o c D. So this study, for instance 365 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:50,440 Speaker 1: and Behavior Research and Therapy from June two thousand eight 366 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:54,600 Speaker 1: found that the dimension of concern over mistakes was elevated 367 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:57,320 Speaker 1: in each of their patient groups that they studied. They 368 00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 1: looked at depression, anxiety disorders, and eating disorder ers. While 369 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:03,720 Speaker 1: pure personal standards, so like I've got to be perfect, 370 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 1: everything has to be perfect, was elevated only in the 371 00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 1: eating disorder sample. The dimension of doubts about actions, so 372 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:14,479 Speaker 1: like can I actually accomplish this? Maybe these people are 373 00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:17,080 Speaker 1: procrastinators like I, I don't know if I can actually 374 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 1: do this as perfectly as I need to. That was 375 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:22,280 Speaker 1: found to be elevated in both patients with O c 376 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:27,280 Speaker 1: D and eating disorders, but not in the depressed patients. 377 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:29,199 Speaker 1: And so it's interesting, you know, I mentioned that the 378 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 1: whole concern over mistakes dimension was elevated in all three 379 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:38,560 Speaker 1: patient groups. Their analysis indicated that concern over mistakes accounted 380 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:43,720 Speaker 1: for most of the variants in the relationship of perfectionism 381 00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:48,399 Speaker 1: to these forms of psycho pathology. So it's really this 382 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:53,160 Speaker 1: concern over messing up basically that your average person, sure 383 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:54,959 Speaker 1: you have that like if I'm going to give a speech, 384 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:57,600 Speaker 1: I don't want to screw it up. But your average 385 00:23:57,600 --> 00:23:59,920 Speaker 1: person is going to deal with the anxiety, cope with 386 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:03,400 Speaker 1: the anxiety, not feel like their entire life will come 387 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:09,160 Speaker 1: crashing down around them. People though, who have depression, anxiety, 388 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:12,359 Speaker 1: and struggle with eating disorders, all of this is likely 389 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,680 Speaker 1: to be so much worse to the point of pathology. 390 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:18,320 Speaker 1: And if we take a look, for instance, at the 391 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:23,360 Speaker 1: anxiety piece, those high standards might actually be holding you 392 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 1: back by breeding the fear of failure and making mistakes, 393 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:30,240 Speaker 1: and a piece in New York Magazine about this noted 394 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:34,040 Speaker 1: how perfectionism very much reflects what they called an inner 395 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:38,960 Speaker 1: self mired and anxiety, and it quoted psychologist Thomas Greenspan, 396 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:43,880 Speaker 1: who described perfectionistic people as believing that they can never 397 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:48,119 Speaker 1: be good enough, that their mistakes reflect personal flaws, and 398 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:51,080 Speaker 1: that the only route to acceptability as a person, the 399 00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:54,960 Speaker 1: only way to prove their worthiness is through perfection. And 400 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 1: guess what, folks, that's impossible to do and how mired 401 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:03,240 Speaker 1: are we taught? Talking fourteen study looking at people with 402 00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 1: elevated perfectionism and generalized anxiety disorder found the specific perfectionism 403 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:13,800 Speaker 1: dimension concern over mistakes. We've heard that before. Personal standards 404 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:19,360 Speaker 1: and doubts about actions were significantly correlated with clinical worry. 405 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:24,080 Speaker 1: So to put that in la terms, clinical perfectionism is 406 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:27,960 Speaker 1: very much linked and predictive of pathological worries. So yeah, 407 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,199 Speaker 1: you're basically you're going to be sitting there just like 408 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:34,439 Speaker 1: heavy breathing, fretting all the time. And this feeds into 409 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 1: O c D tendencies as well. And I'm talking like 410 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:41,159 Speaker 1: actual O c D tendencies, not color coding your bookshelf, 411 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:44,920 Speaker 1: although that does make for a very visually pleasing display. 412 00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:49,320 Speaker 1: It sure does. I also like apartment therapy dot com um. 413 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:52,679 Speaker 1: And of course we've mentioned anxiety disorders. Perfectionism has been 414 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 1: found to be elevated and people with anorexi obilienia and 415 00:25:56,080 --> 00:26:00,879 Speaker 1: eating disorders not otherwise specified compared to control groups, and 416 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:05,080 Speaker 1: I mean just anecdotally common sense wise, this makes a 417 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 1: lot of sense because people with eating disorders are often 418 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:12,479 Speaker 1: found to be attempting to exert control over something, and 419 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:16,919 Speaker 1: that something is calorie counting, its body shape, it's weight. 420 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:22,280 Speaker 1: And there's evidence that researchers have found that treating perfectionism 421 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:27,960 Speaker 1: also helps alleviate anxiety and disordered eating. And part of 422 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:31,960 Speaker 1: that is the idea of perfectionism being this quote trans 423 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:35,639 Speaker 1: diagnostic process, essentially meaning that there are a lot of 424 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:40,280 Speaker 1: overlapping dimensions that exist in eating disorders. So it's important 425 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:44,639 Speaker 1: to look at the whole behavioral and psychological picture. So 426 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:49,639 Speaker 1: perfectionism doesn't exist in a vacuum. Eating disorders don't exist 427 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:53,119 Speaker 1: in a vacuum. These things bring in elements of a 428 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:56,480 Speaker 1: whole lot of mental health issues. Yeah, and and the 429 00:26:56,560 --> 00:27:00,800 Speaker 1: hallmarks of perfectionism are really clear when you look at 430 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:05,800 Speaker 1: eating disordered behavior like shape or weight over evaluation goals, 431 00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:09,240 Speaker 1: setting that all are none thinking UM. That typically goes 432 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:13,159 Speaker 1: into things like intorexia and bulimia. And then if we 433 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 1: look though at suicide attempts. I mean this is not 434 00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:18,800 Speaker 1: to say that these other mental health issues are not 435 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:24,240 Speaker 1: do not severely diminish our quality of life, but suicide 436 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:29,639 Speaker 1: is also so tragically linked to perfectionism as well. And 437 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:33,879 Speaker 1: this was something that that New York Magazine article really 438 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:38,080 Speaker 1: focused on because it was citing some research, including a 439 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:41,520 Speaker 1: two thousand nine report which found a very close relationship 440 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:46,479 Speaker 1: between perfectionism and suicide attempts or completed suicide UM. For instance, 441 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:48,639 Speaker 1: it found uh, this two thousand seven study found that 442 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:51,399 Speaker 1: more than half of family members of people who had 443 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:57,240 Speaker 1: killed themselves described their loved one unprompted as a perfectionist. 444 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,480 Speaker 1: It also found a British study which found eleven of 445 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:03,480 Speaker 1: twenty students who had killed themselves were described as being 446 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:08,960 Speaker 1: afraid a failure. And then finally Archives of Suicide research 447 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:14,440 Speaker 1: study found sev of this group of thirty three boys 448 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:17,919 Speaker 1: who'd killed themselves were described by their parents as placing 449 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:23,040 Speaker 1: quote exceedingly high demands and expectations on themselves. Yeah, and 450 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:28,680 Speaker 1: that New York magazine article quoted this woman whose husband 451 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:32,639 Speaker 1: had died from suicide as saying he was very deliberate. 452 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:36,160 Speaker 1: He was a perfectionist. I've been learning that perfectionism plus 453 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 1: depression is a loaded gun, and that's so tragic to 454 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:43,440 Speaker 1: think of, especially when you think of how perfectionism is 455 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:47,880 Speaker 1: so rewarded in our culture. It's such like a like 456 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:51,400 Speaker 1: a Protestant work ethic thing of like you're going to 457 00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 1: stay up all night and you're gonna work on that 458 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:57,000 Speaker 1: project for work, or you're going to you know, perfect 459 00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:01,000 Speaker 1: your appearance until you're unhealthy. You know, make those cupcakes Jannis, 460 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 1: Jannis is going to make those interest perfect. And so 461 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:07,960 Speaker 1: it does it It gives that like it really drives 462 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:13,120 Speaker 1: home the dangerous and tragic aspect of perfectionism that it's 463 00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:16,560 Speaker 1: not just color coding your bookcase or your folders or whatever, 464 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 1: that it is something that absolutely interferes with living your life. Yeah, 465 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:23,320 Speaker 1: we've we've touched a couple of times on the idea 466 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:27,960 Speaker 1: that perfectionism in and of itself might not be a disorder, 467 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:30,320 Speaker 1: but it might be the interaction of a lot of 468 00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:34,480 Speaker 1: things that's causing distress. For instance, there were some British 469 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:39,200 Speaker 1: psychologists that found that it was the interaction between perfectionism 470 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:41,840 Speaker 1: and avoidance coping, which is dealing with problems by not 471 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:47,680 Speaker 1: dealing with problems that predicted college students hopelessness and psychological distress, 472 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:53,640 Speaker 1: not the perfectionism by itself or the avoidance coping by itself. Meanwhile, 473 00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:57,240 Speaker 1: there was another study in the Journal of Counseling Psychology 474 00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:02,560 Speaker 1: that found the perfectionists who had positive coping mechanisms weren't 475 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:06,040 Speaker 1: any more depressed than the average person, which sort of 476 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:08,360 Speaker 1: goes against some of the stuff we've been saying. But 477 00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:13,000 Speaker 1: they say that this supports the idea that perfectionism interacts 478 00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:16,760 Speaker 1: with other mental health traits as well as life events 479 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,880 Speaker 1: to produce that psycho pathology. So what does that have 480 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:25,560 Speaker 1: to do then, with women and girls? Is that psychopathology 481 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:32,240 Speaker 1: more prevalent among us ladies, among the Janicis of the world, 482 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:37,080 Speaker 1: if you will, um, because it comes up just colloquially 483 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:38,520 Speaker 1: in a lot of the ways that we talk about 484 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:43,120 Speaker 1: women and especially ambitious women of oh, she's just a perfectionist. 485 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:45,320 Speaker 1: Girls always want to be perfect or the reason why 486 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:47,640 Speaker 1: women aren't leaning in and getting ahead is because we 487 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:50,440 Speaker 1: try to be perfect before we ask for raises or 488 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:54,560 Speaker 1: promotions or go for new jobs. And all those things 489 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:59,880 Speaker 1: are true statistically, yes, But is that perfectionism at work 490 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:04,640 Speaker 1: because that perfect word, the P word, came up a 491 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:09,600 Speaker 1: lot in research that we've done on the imposter syndrome UM. 492 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:12,480 Speaker 1: For instance, Caddy k and Claire ship Men have written 493 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:14,000 Speaker 1: a whole book about this. I think they call it 494 00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:17,960 Speaker 1: the Confidence Gap. And in the excerpt of that, which 495 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:22,760 Speaker 1: was published in The Atlantic magazine, in they talk about 496 00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:28,560 Speaker 1: how women feel confident only when they're perfect or practically perfect, 497 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 1: and they go on to say that striving to be 498 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:35,160 Speaker 1: perfect actually keeps us from getting much of anything done, 499 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:39,280 Speaker 1: and they say it is such a given. Yeah. Well, 500 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:42,960 Speaker 1: I think they actually say in that excerpt that, oh, well, 501 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,440 Speaker 1: you know, we all know that women are more likely 502 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:49,800 Speaker 1: to be perfectionist and to strive for perfection. And it's 503 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:53,760 Speaker 1: and it's not that it's not true. It's obviously true 504 00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:57,320 Speaker 1: women some women are perfectionists and some perfectionists or women. 505 00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:01,640 Speaker 1: But I cannot find definitive study that said, yes, more 506 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:07,120 Speaker 1: women are perfectionists more often than men are. There's a 507 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:09,600 Speaker 1: lot of stuff out there that we see in other 508 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 1: mental health discussions in terms of it manifesting differently in 509 00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:16,280 Speaker 1: men and women. Men are more likely to kill themselves 510 00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:19,440 Speaker 1: or to self medicate with drugs and alcohol. Women are 511 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:26,120 Speaker 1: more likely to go the anxiety and eating disorder root. Um. 512 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:30,400 Speaker 1: But yeah, I I I understand the concept of like 513 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:32,920 Speaker 1: oh more. Women clearly want to be perfect, especially when 514 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:36,160 Speaker 1: you take it in terms of the imposter syndrome conversation, 515 00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:39,640 Speaker 1: because Shipment and k argue that girls get a lot 516 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:42,920 Speaker 1: of praise for being perfect, which breeds approval seeking, and 517 00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:45,640 Speaker 1: their confidence takes a hit when they enter the real world. 518 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:48,640 Speaker 1: That doesn't reward them for their perfect spelling in, their 519 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:51,120 Speaker 1: perfect manners and the perfect lacy socks and their Mary 520 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:53,400 Speaker 1: Jane shoes. But I don't think that that's an issue 521 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:57,600 Speaker 1: of actual perfectionism so much as girls trying to out 522 00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:02,920 Speaker 1: achieve institutional sexism. Yeah, the and and certainly those ideas 523 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:05,360 Speaker 1: are related, the idea of I have to work so 524 00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:08,840 Speaker 1: much harder to prove myself. Yes, the perfectionist is driven 525 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:13,480 Speaker 1: by the fear or even the internal knowledge of failure. Um. 526 00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:15,719 Speaker 1: And that's kind of the same thing for impostor syndrome 527 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:17,240 Speaker 1: of I feel like a fake. I have to work 528 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:20,120 Speaker 1: so much harder to prove myself. But they're not one 529 00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:24,320 Speaker 1: and the same. Imposter syndrome is not necessarily nobody's having 530 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:27,680 Speaker 1: a debate over whether imposter syndrome is in and of 531 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:32,200 Speaker 1: itself a mental health disorder, right, And not surprisingly, one 532 00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:35,320 Speaker 1: group of people that's been looked at and studied in 533 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:38,840 Speaker 1: terms of perfectionism is athletes. There was a two thousand 534 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:42,360 Speaker 1: to study in Psychology of Sport and Exercise that found 535 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:45,680 Speaker 1: a strong link between here we have that idea again, 536 00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:51,040 Speaker 1: negative perfectionism and social social physique anxiety for both men 537 00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:54,040 Speaker 1: and women. Uh. They found that there's a small link 538 00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:59,000 Speaker 1: between positive perfection and disordered eating in men. However, when 539 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:03,840 Speaker 1: it comes to women, that negative perfectionism and the social 540 00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:08,719 Speaker 1: physique anxiety interacted to lead to disordered eating. So, like 541 00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:11,040 Speaker 1: how many times have I said interacted in this episode, 542 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:13,680 Speaker 1: it tends to be all of these different things combining 543 00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:19,200 Speaker 1: to drive pathology. Well, so you know, like I said, 544 00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:23,360 Speaker 1: I couldn't find many definitive studies or books or papers 545 00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:26,960 Speaker 1: saying that yes, women experience perfectionism more than men do. 546 00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:32,080 Speaker 1: But I did find some interesting, some interesting research that's 547 00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:34,560 Speaker 1: been done on women and sex. And this is coming 548 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:37,040 Speaker 1: from the book by Cindy Meston and David Buss called 549 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:41,040 Speaker 1: Why Women Have Sex, and they talk about a survey 550 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:45,600 Speaker 1: that Messton did that found that individual differences in perfectionism 551 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:51,640 Speaker 1: were related to relationship fidelity and sexual variety seeking, which 552 00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:55,120 Speaker 1: is fascinating and scary if you're dating a perfectionist. Yeah, 553 00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:57,919 Speaker 1: in a nutshell. They found that women who were high 554 00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:02,680 Speaker 1: in perfectionism essentially to that perfectionism into the bedroom. They 555 00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:06,839 Speaker 1: said unrealistically high standards for themselves and others, and they 556 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:13,440 Speaker 1: also had sex with more people compared to women low imperfectionism, 557 00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:16,960 Speaker 1: and they were more likely to have been unfaithful in 558 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:22,360 Speaker 1: a sexual relationship. So perfectionists are likelier to be cheaters. 559 00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:26,239 Speaker 1: Interesting and bust and Messin think that the reason why 560 00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:32,600 Speaker 1: is because they appear to hold these unrealistic demands not 561 00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:37,080 Speaker 1: just from the people themselves, but from their sexual prowess 562 00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:42,480 Speaker 1: and performance, which causes them to be continually disappointed in 563 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:46,840 Speaker 1: the bedroom, and so they look elsewhere, whether that means 564 00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:49,839 Speaker 1: stepping outside of the balance of a monogamous relationship or not. 565 00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:54,120 Speaker 1: So it seems like these people in this study might 566 00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:58,960 Speaker 1: be pretty likely to quickly flee a relationship rather than 567 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:03,360 Speaker 1: working through problem rather than being like, hey, relationships take work. 568 00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:05,759 Speaker 1: Like I've been guilt. I have never cheated. I'm going 569 00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:10,440 Speaker 1: on record, um, but the I have been guilty of 570 00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:12,480 Speaker 1: in the past dating people and being like, you know what, 571 00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:15,920 Speaker 1: it's not It's not perfect anymore. But was this more 572 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:18,520 Speaker 1: about relationships or was it just about sex? Well, this 573 00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:21,400 Speaker 1: particular thing was just about sex. So can we extrapolate 574 00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:24,000 Speaker 1: that sex to how they would function in a relationship 575 00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:27,520 Speaker 1: because the two are distinct. They are distinct. You're so 576 00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:31,160 Speaker 1: right and playing the sexual devil's advocate. I don't know 577 00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:33,439 Speaker 1: if I want I'm advocating for, but I just think 578 00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:37,560 Speaker 1: that I think sometimes that conflating the two leads us. Yeah, 579 00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:43,200 Speaker 1: that complicates things. Yeah, sex always complicated and it makes 580 00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:48,120 Speaker 1: you a woman. We but what do we do about this? 581 00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:51,680 Speaker 1: How do we treat perfectionism? How do we cope with it? 582 00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:55,440 Speaker 1: Because obviously there is that psychopathology. These are some of 583 00:36:55,520 --> 00:37:00,480 Speaker 1: us are wired in this perfectionistic kind of way. And 584 00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:05,000 Speaker 1: for people who don't deal with this ps telling your 585 00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:08,239 Speaker 1: perfectionist friend or loved one to just relax and kinna 586 00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:12,120 Speaker 1: do it. In staid, it's really focusing in on the 587 00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:18,640 Speaker 1: need to accept yourself and be cared for and take 588 00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:23,399 Speaker 1: care of that perfectionistic drive. Find the root of it. Essentially, well, yeah, 589 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:27,880 Speaker 1: because it is those super high drives to be accepted 590 00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:31,239 Speaker 1: that drives perfectionism. So if you good with therapists and 591 00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:33,839 Speaker 1: you're like, why do I need to feel accepted and 592 00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:36,080 Speaker 1: loved by everyone around me? That will get to the 593 00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:38,720 Speaker 1: root of like, you don't have to be perfect. People 594 00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:41,080 Speaker 1: are gonna love you for being the imperfect person that 595 00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:44,279 Speaker 1: you are, and people are gonna dislike you. Yeah, oh yeah, 596 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:47,840 Speaker 1: that's that's a that's a great thing to acknowledge and 597 00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:50,520 Speaker 1: totally embrace. Not everyone's gonna like you and everyone's gonna 598 00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:53,240 Speaker 1: think you're funny or pretty or cute or worth listening 599 00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:59,000 Speaker 1: to if you host a podcast, I don't understand why not, um, 600 00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:02,240 Speaker 1: but yeah, like you said, it's it's practicing compassion for yourself, 601 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:06,160 Speaker 1: which is so hard considering that you guys out there 602 00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:10,000 Speaker 1: who are perfectionists. You have such high demands on everyone, 603 00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:12,960 Speaker 1: including yourself, And as my therapist says, forgiveness is our 604 00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:16,799 Speaker 1: most healing power, and that includes for yourself, not just 605 00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:19,799 Speaker 1: for the person who cut you off in traffic, And 606 00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:22,760 Speaker 1: so a good way to cope if you have perfectionism 607 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:27,920 Speaker 1: or perfectionistic tendencies is to aim your focus at other people, 608 00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:31,359 Speaker 1: to volunteer, to get the focus off yourself and go 609 00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:35,600 Speaker 1: help others. And it's also helpful to develop some ways 610 00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:39,200 Speaker 1: to counter all of those what ifs and shoulds. So 611 00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:42,279 Speaker 1: one source we were reading said that it's great if 612 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:44,520 Speaker 1: you name your fear, name your what if so, Like 613 00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:47,200 Speaker 1: what if, Okay, let's say Kristen and I are giving 614 00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:50,360 Speaker 1: a speech, Like what if I fail at this speech, Well, 615 00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:54,120 Speaker 1: then Blane will die immediately? What will happen? And it 616 00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:57,480 Speaker 1: will be written on our toolstone we failed the speech, 617 00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:01,000 Speaker 1: the room will explode. But then keep asking yourself, well, 618 00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:03,799 Speaker 1: then what so if I failed the speech, Um, I'm 619 00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:06,640 Speaker 1: probably gonna be embarrassed and somebody might write something bad 620 00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:09,160 Speaker 1: in the college paper about me. Well then what well, 621 00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:11,320 Speaker 1: It'll just blow over and then I'll go home and 622 00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:14,520 Speaker 1: I'll eat this print is dead. Prince is dead, so 623 00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:16,759 Speaker 1: no one will read it. So it's fine. And there's 624 00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:18,759 Speaker 1: also the idea of and this kind of ties into 625 00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:22,319 Speaker 1: cognitive behavioral therapy, which is also recommended for perfectionists, but 626 00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:26,000 Speaker 1: redirecting your what if so instead of being like, what 627 00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:29,600 Speaker 1: if I really f this up? Start asking what if 628 00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:32,160 Speaker 1: I succeed? What if I win? What if I s 629 00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:37,160 Speaker 1: this up? You know? What does S stand for? Okay? 630 00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:39,160 Speaker 1: I was like, I don't understand how the S word 631 00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:44,000 Speaker 1: works in this situation, Christen. But also the idea of 632 00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:46,880 Speaker 1: telling yourself that good enough is good enough because no 633 00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:51,120 Speaker 1: perfection perfectionists believes that, and I struggle with that mightily. 634 00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:53,799 Speaker 1: I don't even believe it's sitting here. But if you 635 00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:56,520 Speaker 1: keep repeating it to yourself as a mantra, that good 636 00:39:56,640 --> 00:40:00,279 Speaker 1: enough is good enough because no one is perfect and 637 00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:03,759 Speaker 1: literally perfection doesn't exist, it's not a thing. Setting realistic 638 00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:08,560 Speaker 1: expectations is also crucial. I have a challenge with this 639 00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:12,399 Speaker 1: where I see what I want and I don't break 640 00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:14,440 Speaker 1: it down into the tiny steps, because you have to 641 00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:17,440 Speaker 1: eat the old elephant one step at a time, one 642 00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:19,160 Speaker 1: bite at a time, not one step at a time. 643 00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:21,759 Speaker 1: Talking about eating an elephant, not walking over it. You 644 00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:24,040 Speaker 1: have to climb over the elephant one step at a time. 645 00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:28,080 Speaker 1: Both of these are ways to deal with procrastination. Well yeah, well, 646 00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:32,319 Speaker 1: I mean first you have the real realistic expectation setting. Yeah, 647 00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:36,640 Speaker 1: and then by doing that it will help with that 648 00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:42,040 Speaker 1: issue of procrastination that I also personally deal with, because 649 00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:44,959 Speaker 1: I mean, when everything just looks so huge, of course 650 00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:46,839 Speaker 1: you're not going to want to do it. And these 651 00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:49,239 Speaker 1: are also patterns that if you have kids, that you 652 00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:53,680 Speaker 1: can model to them, because oh gosh, I tell you, 653 00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:55,960 Speaker 1: I don't even have kids, but my terror is just 654 00:40:56,600 --> 00:41:03,279 Speaker 1: asking them up and that's for screwing succeeding. Well, yeah, 655 00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:07,640 Speaker 1: I mean, it's important to help kids understand that reaching 656 00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:10,600 Speaker 1: their potential and succeeding doesn't mean reaching perfection, that those 657 00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:15,120 Speaker 1: two things aren't the same, and the inner achievement, thinking skills, creativity, imagination, 658 00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:18,640 Speaker 1: risk taking, that these are all so valuable that they're 659 00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:22,359 Speaker 1: even more valuable than getting straight a's. Although I'm sure 660 00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:24,239 Speaker 1: there are people out there who would disagree with me, 661 00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:27,600 Speaker 1: and so they're a therapists out there who encourage parents 662 00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:30,960 Speaker 1: and aunts and uncles whoever you are, um to share 663 00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:33,480 Speaker 1: the stories of your own screw ups with kids, how 664 00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:37,360 Speaker 1: whether you overcame them or not, to show kids like, hey, 665 00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:40,960 Speaker 1: I'm still alive and successful and can and can human. 666 00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:43,759 Speaker 1: You can human too if you miss up. And you know, 667 00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:46,560 Speaker 1: this actually made me think about this woman that I'm 668 00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:48,920 Speaker 1: in a fitness class with who was just telling me 669 00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:52,720 Speaker 1: about how her son came home crying because his homework 670 00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:56,440 Speaker 1: was to color, and he was so nervous about coloring 671 00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:59,600 Speaker 1: outside the lines that he literally couldn't do it. He 672 00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:02,520 Speaker 1: c i'd and just would not do it, even though 673 00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:05,400 Speaker 1: she's like, your daddy and I love your pictures, We 674 00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:07,160 Speaker 1: want you to color outside the lines. You just do 675 00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:09,120 Speaker 1: your best, and that's all you can do. But he 676 00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:13,440 Speaker 1: was so petrified because at school they do great. Apparently, 677 00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:16,480 Speaker 1: in whatever preschool or kindergarten class he is, they do 678 00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:19,799 Speaker 1: get their gold stars for coloring within the lines, even 679 00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:21,960 Speaker 1: though mommy and daddy love it when he colors outside 680 00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:24,840 Speaker 1: the lines and does whatever he wants, and so it 681 00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:26,799 Speaker 1: sounds like someone he's out a talk with teacher. She 682 00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:29,640 Speaker 1: was telling me this, and I'm like, oh, this sounds 683 00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:32,200 Speaker 1: like well, first it sounds like me, but then it 684 00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:35,759 Speaker 1: sounds like perfectionism is starting to take root. And so 685 00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:39,840 Speaker 1: anything you can do to encourage yourself or your kids 686 00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:42,359 Speaker 1: to really just be creative and take those risks, I 687 00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:46,000 Speaker 1: think that's super mentally healthy. And perhaps another mentally healthy 688 00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:50,000 Speaker 1: thing that you can do is share your stories with us. 689 00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:53,839 Speaker 1: With some podcasters. I mean, we're curious to hear from 690 00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:58,560 Speaker 1: listeners if this resonates with you or with someone you 691 00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:01,920 Speaker 1: know or love. Mom Stubb at house stuffwork dot com 692 00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:04,080 Speaker 1: is our email address. You can also tweet us at 693 00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:07,399 Speaker 1: mom Stuff podcast or messages on Facebook. And we've got 694 00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:15,200 Speaker 1: a couple of messages to share with you right now. Well, 695 00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:18,120 Speaker 1: I have a letter here from Leaf in response to 696 00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:22,080 Speaker 1: our Significant Other episode. Leaf writes, I especially enjoyed the 697 00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:25,640 Speaker 1: little segment on gender neutral terms. As a non binary 698 00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:29,000 Speaker 1: transgender person with a long term sis gender girlfriend, this 699 00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:31,799 Speaker 1: is an issue that has permeated both my personal relationship 700 00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:33,759 Speaker 1: with her and also the way that we as a 701 00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:36,359 Speaker 1: couple are seeing to those around us. To most people, 702 00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:39,160 Speaker 1: we look like a fairly average lesbian couple. Even if 703 00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:41,720 Speaker 1: someone were to know that one of us is transgender, 704 00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:44,240 Speaker 1: the guests would more like more than likely be my girlfriend, 705 00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:47,360 Speaker 1: who is much more androgynous Lee presenting than myself. To 706 00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:50,400 Speaker 1: offset that, my girlfriend has taken to calling me her partner, 707 00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:53,120 Speaker 1: although that term in itself has cost just as much 708 00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:56,279 Speaker 1: confusion as anything else. You were absolutely right when you 709 00:43:56,320 --> 00:44:00,120 Speaker 1: mentioned that using partner either signifies a man's coworker, are 710 00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:03,520 Speaker 1: a sneaky lesbian term of endearment? Can we have that 711 00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:08,919 Speaker 1: movie Sneaky Lesbian terms of endearment? Anyway, back to the letter, 712 00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:13,280 Speaker 1: Leaf continues whenever my girlfriend refers to me as her partner, 713 00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:16,279 Speaker 1: whoever she's speaking to is always quick to correct her 714 00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:18,960 Speaker 1: and to get her to say I'm her girlfriend. We 715 00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:21,120 Speaker 1: have yet to find a way around this problem, as 716 00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:24,640 Speaker 1: even more gender gender neutral terms tend to sound childish 717 00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:26,920 Speaker 1: in an adult setting, and even if they didn't, the 718 00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:29,759 Speaker 1: common person probably would not be able to instantly queue 719 00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:32,040 Speaker 1: in on the meaning. It's just one of the many 720 00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:35,480 Speaker 1: problems non binary trans people have in social situations but 721 00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:38,280 Speaker 1: yet to be figured out well. So thanks for writing 722 00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:40,680 Speaker 1: to us about it, Leaf. I'm gonna let her hear 723 00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:43,880 Speaker 1: from Kayleie about our Native American Princess episode from a 724 00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:47,120 Speaker 1: while back, and she writes, I was listening to your 725 00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:50,440 Speaker 1: Native American Princess stereotyping episode and the commentary on how 726 00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:54,160 Speaker 1: these harmful stereotypes often harm young children's perspectives of their 727 00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:57,600 Speaker 1: native culture. My siblings and I are bi racial. Our 728 00:44:57,640 --> 00:45:00,680 Speaker 1: father's family belongs to be a Jibwa boys work band 729 00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:05,440 Speaker 1: in Northern Minnesota, and my mother is a strong Polish woman. Anyway, 730 00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:07,400 Speaker 1: when my parents were out, a family friend had to 731 00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:10,120 Speaker 1: swatch peter Pan for the first time, and while little 732 00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:12,800 Speaker 1: kids have a hard time understanding the totally racially charged 733 00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:15,279 Speaker 1: lyrics of the song what makes a Red Man Read, 734 00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:19,359 Speaker 1: my younger brother was terrified. He refused to go to bed, 735 00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:21,640 Speaker 1: and when my parents came home, my five year old 736 00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:24,600 Speaker 1: brother seriously confessed to my parents that he did not 737 00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:27,239 Speaker 1: want to be Native American anymore because in peter Pan 738 00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:30,360 Speaker 1: they were scary and tried to kill everyone. My parents 739 00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:32,640 Speaker 1: were mortified, to say the least, and that night we 740 00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:35,520 Speaker 1: all had a good talking to about American history, racism, 741 00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:39,360 Speaker 1: and how stereotypes of Native American people have suffered. So 742 00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:42,120 Speaker 1: after this very long, very emotional conversation and my parents 743 00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:44,360 Speaker 1: had with us, they asked my other younger brother what 744 00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:47,399 Speaker 1: he thought now, and he replied, now we must kill 745 00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:52,680 Speaker 1: the white man. Equally horrified, parental shrieks followed with no, 746 00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:57,000 Speaker 1: you're white too. While cute, it's always been a sad 747 00:45:57,040 --> 00:45:59,160 Speaker 1: story for us kids because it's the first time we 748 00:45:59,239 --> 00:46:02,359 Speaker 1: became aware the racism and struggle with identity that many 749 00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:06,160 Speaker 1: Native and biracial people feel. These scenes have not only 750 00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:09,480 Speaker 1: affected my siblings perspective on our culture, but also the 751 00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:12,359 Speaker 1: children around us in high school and middle school. When 752 00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:16,000 Speaker 1: our very white school found out that us kids were Native, 753 00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:19,120 Speaker 1: bullying and chance of Ali Ali Gum Gum followed me 754 00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:21,720 Speaker 1: for a while, and people called my younger sister Tiger 755 00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:24,960 Speaker 1: Lily and brother Running Bear behind their backs, and it 756 00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:27,560 Speaker 1: was far more common than I obviously would have liked. 757 00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:30,680 Speaker 1: For a while, it felt like being Native was humiliating, 758 00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:34,279 Speaker 1: and the fact that my family's tormentors used Disney references 759 00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:37,000 Speaker 1: to do it makes me sick to my stomach. So 760 00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:42,560 Speaker 1: that's why I hate Peter Pan. So thanks for your letter, Kaylee, 761 00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:46,200 Speaker 1: and thanks to everybody who's written into us. Mom. Stuff 762 00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:48,799 Speaker 1: at how stuff works dot com is our email address 763 00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:50,960 Speaker 1: and for links to all of our social media as 764 00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:54,160 Speaker 1: well as all of our blogs, videos, and podcasts with 765 00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:56,960 Speaker 1: this one including our sources. So you can learn more 766 00:46:57,000 --> 00:47:01,120 Speaker 1: about perfectionism. Head on over to stuff Mom Never Told 767 00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:09,640 Speaker 1: You dot com for moralness and thousands of other topics. 768 00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:10,800 Speaker 1: Does it have stuff work So