1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,560 Speaker 1: M Hey everyone, it's me Josh, your old friend, and 2 00:00:03,640 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 1: for this week's s Y s K Selects, I've chosen 3 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:10,880 Speaker 1: our episode from two thousand sixteen, The Unsolved Mystery Disappearance 4 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 1: of the Sodder Children. Uh. It's a story, a very 5 00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:18,360 Speaker 1: tragic and sad one, but also incredibly enthralling about five 6 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:21,919 Speaker 1: children who disappeared after a house fire on Christmas back 7 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:25,840 Speaker 1: in It's one of my all time favorite episodes, which 8 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 1: is why I'm choosing it as a select and I 9 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:36,159 Speaker 1: hope you enjoy it as well. Welcome to Stuff You 10 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 1: Should Know, a production of I Heart Radio. Hey, and 11 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 1: welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark and there's Charles 12 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 1: W Chuck Bryant, Jerry's over there. So this is Stuff 13 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:56,160 Speaker 1: you should Unsolved Mysteries Edition. Yeah. Really, are you cool 14 00:00:56,160 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 1: with us? No? I'm leaving. Yeah. I think it's great. Man. 15 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 1: I love me a good unsolved mystery. Yeah, and this 16 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:06,400 Speaker 1: is super sad, So it's not like I love it 17 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: and I think it's hysterical. I just I just like 18 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 1: unsolved mystery. What's a what's an hysterical unsolved mystery? Um? 19 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:19,760 Speaker 1: Like I got pantsed in the second grade and I 20 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 1: don't know who did it. That's an hysterical unsolved mystery. 21 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 1: It was just in line pants around the ankles turned 22 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 1: around and like everyone's like, did you just go with it? 23 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:33,560 Speaker 1: And you're like, check it out, check me out him 24 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 1: in second grade. Yep, good for you. That never happened. 25 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:41,800 Speaker 1: I made it up. Oh really yeah, it's called improv, buddy. 26 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 1: It's a craft so en scene and scene and seen. 27 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:51,000 Speaker 1: Have we are established which one it is? Yeah? A 28 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 1: few times and nope, it is Chuck. We are talking 29 00:01:56,520 --> 00:02:02,640 Speaker 1: about a family called the Solders. Um, not the Soldiers right, 30 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 1: not the welding technique. No, the Solders. They are a 31 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:11,639 Speaker 1: family out of Fayetteville, West Virginia, of Italian extraction, as 32 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:14,880 Speaker 1: we'll see. Yes, and um, very much so. Like you said, 33 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:18,120 Speaker 1: this is an unsolved mystery. They they they're family, just 34 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:22,240 Speaker 1: going along totally normally. Has turned into one of the 35 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 1: stranger unsolved mysteries in American history. Yeah, and certainly in 36 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 1: West Virginia history. Oh definitely. And I should say I 37 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 1: texted our friend Justin McElroy of the McElroy triplets. Well, 38 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 1: they're not triplets, they're they're they're brothers. Oh yeah, my brother, 39 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 1: my brother and Me podcast because they are from West Virginia. 40 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 1: And as you'll see here, there's a very famous billboard 41 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:51,360 Speaker 1: that we're going to talk about about this case. And 42 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 1: I was like, hey, dude, do you ever do you 43 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 1: remember where you know seeing this thing? How far are 44 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:57,359 Speaker 1: you from Fayettville? He said, just a couple of hours, 45 00:02:57,440 --> 00:02:59,679 Speaker 1: he said, but I've never heard of that. And I 46 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 1: was like, really, this seemed like the kind of cautionary 47 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:05,359 Speaker 1: tale that would be whispered about all over West Virginia. 48 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:08,079 Speaker 1: I could see that. But he said he never heard 49 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 1: of it. And then he looked it up and said, 50 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:12,200 Speaker 1: oh wow. And I said, I bet your dad knows 51 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 1: about it, and then he said he didn't. He didn't respond. 52 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:19,799 Speaker 1: You didn't text him back? Answer me, No, that's right. 53 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:21,679 Speaker 1: I am Facebook friends with his dad. That should have 54 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:24,600 Speaker 1: SA yeah, ask him. Yeah, go go to the source. 55 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 1: That's right. So well, let's go back to the beginning, 56 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 1: Chuck back to that's right. That's when Georgiros, who would 57 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 1: become George sodder I, was born in Sardinia and came 58 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:42,480 Speaker 1: to the US and nineteen o eight as a young 59 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 1: lad of thirteen years old. Yeah, and he was a 60 00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:47,120 Speaker 1: go getter. He really was so his. He had an 61 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 1: older brother who traveled with him from Sardinia to New York. Um. 62 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 1: I guess he was like, I don't want to do this, 63 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:55,840 Speaker 1: and right when they made it through Ellis Island, he 64 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 1: turned right back around and went back to Italy. Yeah, 65 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:00,040 Speaker 1: he's I don't know, man, Go get a cup of 66 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 1: coffee and think it over, is what I say. After 67 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 1: you made that ship's voyage, just mull it over for 68 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 1: a day or two. Yeah, because what if, like you're 69 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 1: halfway back, you're like, actually I should have stayed. Yeah, 70 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 1: you might meet a pretty lady from Brooklyn. Did you 71 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 1: see that movie Brooklyn? No? Great? Really? Yeah? Yeah, okay, 72 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 1: I mean it will check it out. You sound it surprised. 73 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:25,479 Speaker 1: I was a little surprised. Yeah. It was nominated for 74 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:28,920 Speaker 1: many awards. Yeah that doesn't always mean. It usually means 75 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:33,480 Speaker 1: it's pretty good. No, it depens. Okay, Brooklyn highly recommended 76 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:37,480 Speaker 1: about young Italian man who falls in love with an 77 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 1: Irish immigrant. Oh well, this has nothing to do with 78 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:42,720 Speaker 1: this thing. No, not at all, because this man falls 79 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 1: in love with an Italian immigrant. That's right, right, So, um, George, 80 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:48,919 Speaker 1: like you said, he was a bit of a go getter. 81 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 1: He's thirteen, he's on his own, literally without any any 82 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:55,559 Speaker 1: other family in America. Yeah, it's kind of mind blowing. 83 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:58,880 Speaker 1: But then you think back to there there. They didn't 84 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:01,920 Speaker 1: really under to what childhood was at that point. So 85 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 1: he was probably like of working age and had been 86 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 1: for years. But it seems really weird to us now. 87 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 1: He might have been retiring right at thirteen. He was 88 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 1: smoking cigars already, so he, like I said, it, was 89 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 1: a go getter. He started working at the on the 90 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:22,520 Speaker 1: Pennsylvania Railroad and then moved to West Virginia to Smithers Smithers, 91 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:27,279 Speaker 1: West Virginia, and worked as a truck driver and then said, 92 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:31,120 Speaker 1: you know what, this is America, darn it. I didn't 93 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:33,640 Speaker 1: come here to drive a truck for someone. I'm gonna 94 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 1: own my own trucking business. And the Statue of Liberty went, 95 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:41,720 Speaker 1: ah yep, nice going kid. So he started at his 96 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:45,479 Speaker 1: own trucking business. Um, and he's in West Virginia. So 97 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:48,280 Speaker 1: in short order he starts hauling cole yeah, coal and dirt. 98 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:50,279 Speaker 1: And it wasn't like the hugest business. I think he 99 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 1: did okay for himself. He did it okay for himself 100 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:55,440 Speaker 1: solidly middle class. Yeah, he didn't become like wealthy or anything. 101 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 1: And as a matter of fact, later on UM a 102 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 1: local local government official would say that the Sauders were, 103 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:07,920 Speaker 1: um one of the best middle class families in Fayetteville. Yeah, 104 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:12,520 Speaker 1: and they had a small Italian population in Fayetteville, which 105 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 1: I think is why he ended up there, right in 106 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 1: his community. Yeah, and he moved there with his wife Jenny, right, Yeah, 107 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 1: Jenny Cipriani who he met, Um. She came over from 108 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:26,520 Speaker 1: Italy when she was three. He met her historic called 109 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:30,200 Speaker 1: the music Box, and they got married. And like Italian 110 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 1: families do, they had ten kids. Ten kids in twenty years. Yeah, 111 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:38,839 Speaker 1: that's a lot of kids, pumping them out with great regularity. 112 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:40,720 Speaker 1: And like you said, when they moved to Fayettville, the 113 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 1: reason they moved to Fayville. Had no idea that West 114 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 1: Virginia even had Italian people in it, let alone strong 115 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:49,680 Speaker 1: Italian communities. But they moved to Fayettville and they were 116 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 1: part of the Italian community, and George was well known. Again, 117 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:56,279 Speaker 1: they were respected middle class family there. He did pretty 118 00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:59,719 Speaker 1: good for himself, UM. And he was also well known 119 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 1: for his opinions on everything including politics and UM. During 120 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 1: the forties, the United States was at war with Italy, 121 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 1: and not all of the Italian Americans were UM feeling it. 122 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 1: On the American side, there were a lot of disagreements 123 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 1: over Mussolini and the government that he was creating UM 124 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 1: among Italian Americans, including in Fayetteville, West Virginia, and George 125 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 1: in particular, hated Mussolini and very frequently spoke out about 126 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 1: him and would get in arguments with some of the 127 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 1: locals who who felt differently about Mussolini. And Uh, I 128 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 1: guess there were some hard feelings here there, but he 129 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:40,200 Speaker 1: doesn't seem to have taken them seriously very much. No, 130 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 1: And we mentioned that, Um, if it sounds like we're 131 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:45,720 Speaker 1: setting something up for later, we indeed are. So just 132 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 1: tuck that little fact away, um. And then can we 133 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 1: fast forward in time? Yeah too, Uh Christmas Eve, Christmas Eve? 134 00:07:54,760 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 1: N So, Um, here's what happens. It's Christmas Eve. Um. 135 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 1: As his tradition, in some households, you can open up 136 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 1: a few gifts on Christmas Eve. Yeah, so this is 137 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 1: what happened. They opened up some presents comes time for 138 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:17,320 Speaker 1: Betty By and five of the children, Maurice fourteen, Martha twelve, 139 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 1: Louis or Louie, ten, Genie or Jenny as that was 140 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 1: a little confusing because that's the mom's name. Eight years old, 141 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 1: and Betty said, can we please stay up late and 142 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 1: play with these new toys? Yeah, they're older. Sister Marian 143 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 1: had she worked at a five and diamond town two 144 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:41,440 Speaker 1: miles down the road, and she had surprised her younger 145 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 1: brothers and sisters with some toys that they had not 146 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 1: been expecting. That's right, and they were very happy. So 147 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 1: they asked mom if they could stay up. Yeah, and 148 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:51,440 Speaker 1: the older, the elder Jenny, said yeah, I guess you 149 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:53,560 Speaker 1: can stay up, turn out the lights, locked the doors 150 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:56,839 Speaker 1: before you go to bed. I'm going to hit the 151 00:08:56,920 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 1: rack with your dad. And are two year old daughters Sylvia, 152 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:03,560 Speaker 1: twenty three year old John In sixteen year old George Jr. 153 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:05,520 Speaker 1: Were I guess they were just ready for bed too. 154 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:09,640 Speaker 1: And then if you're thinking there's one missing child, he 155 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:14,200 Speaker 1: is away in the military. The eldest, Yeah, fighting either 156 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 1: Mussolini or Hitler or to Joe, one of those guys, right, 157 00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:21,960 Speaker 1: So he's away and I could not, for the life 158 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 1: of me find that guy's name. Then I couldn't either. Actually, So, um, 159 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 1: the mom goes to bed. Jenny goes to bed, and uh, 160 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:34,839 Speaker 1: the dad, George and his two next oldest sons, who 161 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:37,080 Speaker 1: had been working with him that day, they'd all gone 162 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:40,079 Speaker 1: to bed about ten. Um. What time did the mom 163 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 1: go to bed? Eleven something like that. Yeah, but she 164 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 1: leaves those five youngest children, Um and Marian, their older 165 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 1: sister who I think was seventeen at the time, downstairs 166 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 1: when she goes to bed. Um. And then it about 167 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:58,080 Speaker 1: twelve thirty on Christmas Morne, because remember that was Christmas Eve, 168 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:02,359 Speaker 1: about twelve thirty at night, the own rings and Um, 169 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 1: this is not an era where and this kind of 170 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 1: to me goes to show these people were doing all right. 171 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:12,080 Speaker 1: They had a phone in in West Virginia. They may 172 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 1: have been the only people in West Virginia with a 173 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 1: phone in nineteen I'm just saying, I don't think everybody 174 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:22,880 Speaker 1: had a phone in West Virginia, so they certainly didn't 175 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:25,360 Speaker 1: have one at their bedside. So Jenny, the mom has 176 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 1: to get up to answer the phone, and on the 177 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:31,200 Speaker 1: other line she hears a woman asking for somebody she 178 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 1: didn't know or recognized, and in the background there's obviously 179 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:37,480 Speaker 1: a party going on. There's laughter, there's clinking of glasses, 180 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 1: and uh, Jenny says, I don't know who you're talking about. 181 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 1: You have the wrong number, and the woman laughs weirdly 182 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 1: and hangs up. Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and come 183 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 1: out and say, I think this means nothing in his 184 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:53,320 Speaker 1: total coincidence. So supposedly they tracked that woman down and 185 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:56,960 Speaker 1: she said it was just a wrong number. Total coincidence, 186 00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:00,160 Speaker 1: that's what I think. But think about that though, Like, 187 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:03,240 Speaker 1: had that not happened, a lot of other stuff would 188 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:06,920 Speaker 1: have gone unnoticed. Right, it's a big deal. So before 189 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 1: she goes back to bed, she noticed the lights are 190 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:11,679 Speaker 1: on downstairs. She said, you know, turn the lights off, 191 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:13,520 Speaker 1: locked the door before you go to bed. So one 192 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 1: of her kids is on the couch asleep. She's like, 193 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:19,079 Speaker 1: wait a minute, the doors unlocked, the lights are on. Um, 194 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:20,800 Speaker 1: they shouldn't have done that. So let me lock the 195 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:22,760 Speaker 1: doors and turn off the lights. And she leaves the 196 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 1: one that's asleep on the couch asleep. It was the 197 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:30,320 Speaker 1: one that got her toys. Sleepy time on the couch. 198 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:32,679 Speaker 1: That's fine, But those five younger ones who've been playing 199 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:34,680 Speaker 1: with their toys, they were in ordered to be found, 200 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 1: so mom just assumed they went upstairs to bed, right, 201 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 1: So she goes back to bed, and then like an 202 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:46,280 Speaker 1: hour later, she's awoken by like a thump on the roof. Yeah, 203 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:48,720 Speaker 1: and she falls back asleep again. Well, it sounded like 204 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 1: a heavy thump and a sliding down of the roof 205 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:55,960 Speaker 1: was just something heavy head landed on it and then 206 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 1: slid off, and she just went back to sleep, very 207 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:01,800 Speaker 1: important matters. Probably figured it was a reindeer or something 208 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 1: like that. At being Christmas, you never know. Uh. The 209 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:07,320 Speaker 1: next time she woke up, she woke up to panic 210 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:11,000 Speaker 1: and chaos because her house was on fire. And chuck, 211 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 1: we'll talk about the fire right after this. All right, dude, 212 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:44,400 Speaker 1: the house is on fire, that's right. So Sylvia, a 213 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 1: little two year old Sylvia is in their room with 214 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 1: her the parents, so they get her out, obviously covered 215 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 1: with them because she's in the crib. Uh. And then 216 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:57,280 Speaker 1: seventeen year old Marion and year old John and sixth 217 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:02,000 Speaker 1: year old George Jr. Are all outside and safe right 218 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 1: at this point, So everyone is out except for these 219 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 1: five other kids, right, And they were on the top 220 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 1: floor of the house. I believe in two different rooms 221 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 1: and the only way down is this one single staircase. 222 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:18,360 Speaker 1: And George tried to go back into the house. He 223 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:22,160 Speaker 1: broke through a window, cut his arm quite badly. UM 224 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 1: getting into through in through the window or opening the door. UM, 225 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:30,520 Speaker 1: and runs inside and the entire downstairs floor is totally 226 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 1: engulfed in flame and smoke. He can't see anything, but 227 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:36,200 Speaker 1: he can see that there's no way he can go 228 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:39,480 Speaker 1: up the staircase or anyone can make it down the staircase. 229 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:41,319 Speaker 1: So he runs back outside of the house to try 230 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 1: to figure out another way to get up to those 231 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:46,720 Speaker 1: kids on the on the top floor. Yeah, and here's 232 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:50,840 Speaker 1: an interesting point. UM. One of the relatives of I 233 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:52,720 Speaker 1: think it was the guy who ended up marrying the 234 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:56,400 Speaker 1: youngest daughter later in life. UM Sylvia said they did 235 00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:57,960 Speaker 1: a lot of research on this, and he said the 236 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 1: original police report said that the very first statement said 237 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 1: that the two sons, John and George, who got out, 238 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 1: said they actually ran into the other kids rooms and 239 00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 1: physically shook them awake. And then later on in interviews 240 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:14,800 Speaker 1: they said no, they just called out to them. UM, 241 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 1: and assume they heard. But it's still is a mystery 242 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 1: as to whether or not that really happened. Police will 243 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 1: say the first statement is usually the accurate one, um, 244 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:28,840 Speaker 1: But that's just speculation. So from what I understand, the 245 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 1: family rationalized that later on by saying that the two 246 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 1: boys probably felt very guilty, and they said that they 247 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:39,400 Speaker 1: did what they wished they had or felt that they 248 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 1: should have done. That makes sense, and that their revisions 249 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:45,320 Speaker 1: later on were actually the factual ones. That they tried 250 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 1: to rouse their um siblings by just shouting up the stairs. 251 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:52,840 Speaker 1: I can buy that. UM. So Papa tries to get in, 252 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:56,000 Speaker 1: cuts himself really bad. Then he says, wait a minute, 253 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:58,240 Speaker 1: I have this ladder that leans up against the house. 254 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 1: Always always let me go grab that ladders. Not they're 255 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 1: very weird. It is very weird, and it would be 256 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:07,360 Speaker 1: found in a ditch like from the house later on, 257 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:12,160 Speaker 1: and later on witnesses supposedly saw dude stealing it, uh 258 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:16,640 Speaker 1: from the garage. But there's so many things that people 259 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:19,280 Speaker 1: say about this case that it is hard to know 260 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 1: what's true and what was invented. That is true that 261 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 1: they saw a guy a dude, well, they report that 262 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 1: they saw a guy. Well that guy the guy actually 263 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 1: was found and was arrested and charged for stealing and 264 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 1: never questioned about the actual fire. The guy that stole 265 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 1: the ladder. Yeah, okay, so they he says, the dad says, 266 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:41,280 Speaker 1: let me get my trucks, my big uh coal Holland 267 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:43,880 Speaker 1: trucks and pull because those are tall. Let me pull 268 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 1: that next to the house, climb up on that. Neither 269 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:48,760 Speaker 1: one of the trucks start, even though they've been using 270 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 1: him to work earlier that day. Yeah, so the thinking 271 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:54,200 Speaker 1: by the cops and everyone else pretty much is in 272 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 1: the panic he and his son flooded the engines trying 273 00:15:56,960 --> 00:15:59,520 Speaker 1: to get him started, and that they wouldn't start. Yeah, 274 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 1: but it became yet another like fishy detail that made 275 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 1: this family suspect like something really weird happened here. Yeah, 276 00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 1: and then later there was a totally don't understand the 277 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 1: whole engine removal theory. So it doesn't make any sense 278 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:22,640 Speaker 1: that guy who stole the ladder was caught stealing a 279 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:25,640 Speaker 1: block and tackle that you would use to remove engines. Yeah, 280 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 1: that doesn't make any sense, But it doesn't mean like 281 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 1: he messed with their car or used that block and 282 00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 1: tackle to do anything to the engines. They probably just 283 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:36,520 Speaker 1: flooded him that one. I'm I'm an agreement on. So 284 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 1: these this family they're watching helplessly as the house is 285 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 1: going up in flames. That was burned to the ground 286 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:48,000 Speaker 1: in about forty five minutes, ostensibly with the children trapped inside. Yeah. 287 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:50,320 Speaker 1: And if you think, why did in the fire the 288 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 1: fire trucks come the Fatte Fire Department? Uh, you know 289 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:58,200 Speaker 1: it was was Fayetteville, West Virginia. Was Christmas? It was 290 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 1: Christmas night or morn I guess at this point, um, uh, 291 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 1: you know, one of the daughters went to a neighbor's house, 292 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 1: called the fire department. No operators on duty even, right, 293 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 1: And another neighbor who saw this didn't have a phone 294 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 1: at their house, so they went to the local tavern 295 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:19,360 Speaker 1: and they called the operator to report the fire too, 296 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:23,240 Speaker 1: and they couldn't get the operator either operator was probably 297 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:26,879 Speaker 1: at home sleeping for Christmas, that's right. So eventually someone 298 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:31,880 Speaker 1: drives and literally physically tracks down uh fire Chief F. J. Morris, 299 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 1: who does not come out smelling well in this, Well 300 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 1: he doesn't. He said, well, I can't drive the fire 301 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:41,080 Speaker 1: truck as the fire chief. And the way that they 302 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:43,400 Speaker 1: don't even have a siren, The way that they alerted 303 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:46,040 Speaker 1: the fire department was it's called a phone tree. They 304 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:48,399 Speaker 1: just start calling one another. Then they called the next person, 305 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:51,160 Speaker 1: which made even the last sense because again the solders 306 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 1: were the only people in West Virginia with a phone 307 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 1: in their house. It's not true. Uh So eventually, seven 308 00:17:57,280 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 1: hours later, at eight a m. The fire truck arrives 309 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 1: to find a smoldering pile of ash, and a lot 310 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:05,359 Speaker 1: of people are like, well, clearly the fire department was 311 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:09,399 Speaker 1: paid off or told to halt. From what I gather, 312 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:14,440 Speaker 1: it was sheer ineptitude. And also the sense I think 313 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 1: the fire marshal or fire chief defended himself later saying, yeah, 314 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:20,960 Speaker 1: he said I couldn't drive the fire trucks side to 315 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:24,159 Speaker 1: wait for somebody who could. And also that house went 316 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:27,160 Speaker 1: up so fast there was no there wasn't any need 317 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 1: for us to get there in any kind of hurry. Well, 318 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:32,440 Speaker 1: I mean that's probably true. He also said burned in 319 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:35,120 Speaker 1: like between thirty and forty five minutes. Yeah, if you're 320 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:37,200 Speaker 1: a fire chief, that's not what you want to say, 321 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:40,719 Speaker 1: you know, like who cares when we get there? Also, 322 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 1: one of the firemen who showed up was Jenny Satter's brother, 323 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:48,440 Speaker 1: So it's not like there was this conspiracy to among 324 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:51,720 Speaker 1: the fire department necessarily, although that is a common belief 325 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:53,919 Speaker 1: in people who pay attention to this case. It is 326 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:56,879 Speaker 1: so what they find eight am as a house burnt 327 00:18:56,880 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 1: to the ground. What they don't find are any remnants 328 00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:04,480 Speaker 1: of those five children. Yeah, and here in is where 329 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 1: the mystery really kicks in. The family starts like paying 330 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 1: attention to little weird details. At first, they just assumed 331 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:17,119 Speaker 1: that the kids have they're they're just totally gone. They 332 00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:19,600 Speaker 1: were totally burned up. Well, that's what the fire chief said. 333 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:22,160 Speaker 1: He was like, there's no remains whatsoever because it burned 334 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:25,399 Speaker 1: them to nothing. They did, like a cursory examination of 335 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:27,800 Speaker 1: the rubble. They did find some other stuff, like they 336 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:32,399 Speaker 1: found appliances that were recognizable, They found a couple other things, 337 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 1: but they never found any of the kids. Um, And 338 00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:40,480 Speaker 1: they took the fire chief's word at face value and said, Okay, 339 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:42,480 Speaker 1: well our kids are in there. We can't bear to 340 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:45,439 Speaker 1: the side of this any longer. So George went and 341 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 1: got a bunch of dirt and buried the site in 342 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:53,639 Speaker 1: about five ft of fill dirt and decided to plant 343 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 1: a memorial garden there on the side of the house. Fire. Yeah, 344 00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 1: this is on January two, so that he wasn't supposed 345 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 1: to do this. They're supposed to leave it open to 346 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:06,639 Speaker 1: continue to investigate. Um. The state police inspector said it 347 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:10,959 Speaker 1: was faulty wiring. It's now covered in dirt. Um, and 348 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:14,359 Speaker 1: so now the family has just left alone, saying what 349 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 1: happened to our children? Are they? Were they in there? Right? 350 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 1: So that that when they buried the place and dirt, 351 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:22,359 Speaker 1: they assumed that the children were still in there, and 352 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:25,639 Speaker 1: this was there. They're grave now. They were never going 353 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:28,600 Speaker 1: to be found um. But then, like you said, they 354 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:32,359 Speaker 1: started thinking about weird details that emerged. Right. One of 355 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 1: the first ones was the idea that it was faulty wiring. 356 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 1: George basically knew for a fact that it wasn't faulty wiring. 357 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:42,959 Speaker 1: He'd recently had um an electric stove installed and just 358 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:45,920 Speaker 1: to make sure again there he was doing pretty well, 359 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:48,200 Speaker 1: just to make sure that the house didn't burn down 360 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:50,719 Speaker 1: with this new fangled electric stove. He had the wiring 361 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:53,640 Speaker 1: in the house redone, and then he had it inspected 362 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:56,480 Speaker 1: by the power company, who sent out an inspector and 363 00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:59,240 Speaker 1: said they did a good job. Wiring is fine. So 364 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:02,920 Speaker 1: he basically you almost for a fact that it wasn't 365 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:05,960 Speaker 1: faulty wiring in the house. Yeah. Not only that after 366 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:08,000 Speaker 1: the fire started, when they were outside, there were still 367 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 1: lights on in the house, right, So remember Jenny came 368 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:12,960 Speaker 1: down and turned out the lights. She left the Christmas 369 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:15,840 Speaker 1: tree lights on, and while the house was burning, the 370 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:18,800 Speaker 1: Christmas tree was still the Christmas tree lights were on, 371 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:21,359 Speaker 1: which must have been like a really ghastly thing to see, 372 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:26,320 Speaker 1: you know. Uh, speaking of the wiring, there was a 373 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 1: point a few months earlier, and this is definitely a 374 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 1: strange thing, when this guy showed up. He was a stranger, 375 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:35,480 Speaker 1: no one knew him, and he asked about, you know, 376 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:38,120 Speaker 1: working as a driver, and he didn't have any work 377 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:40,400 Speaker 1: for him, but he was sort of just I guess. 378 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:42,960 Speaker 1: They had the conversation outdoors, wandered around at the back 379 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:45,400 Speaker 1: of his house and said, you know, what you're wiring 380 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 1: here at your fuse box is going to cause a 381 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 1: fire someday. And George thought, well, that's a really weird 382 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 1: thing to say, because not only did I have it 383 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:56,520 Speaker 1: just inspected and it's fine, it's just a strange thing 384 00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:59,720 Speaker 1: for you to say, Mr stranger, get off my property 385 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:04,919 Speaker 1: pretty much, but take the cannoli very nice, but weird 386 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:07,679 Speaker 1: and disconcerting after the fact. Obviously, sure he didn't think 387 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:09,680 Speaker 1: anything of it at the time other than that's a 388 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:12,760 Speaker 1: weird thing to say. Yeah. Um. Another fishy thing that 389 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:15,439 Speaker 1: happened that really kind of stuck out in retrospect was 390 00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:20,159 Speaker 1: the life insurance salesman, right, Yeah, a life insurance salesman 391 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:24,560 Speaker 1: came through and um tried to sell George some life 392 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:29,520 Speaker 1: insurance policies for his children, and George didn't bite and 393 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 1: the guy got I rate and his quote was kind 394 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 1: of weird. Actually, he said, your house is going to 395 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:40,280 Speaker 1: go up and smoke your g D house. Yeah, your 396 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 1: children are going to be destroyed. And then here's here's 397 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:47,920 Speaker 1: where it really gets weird. He says, you will be 398 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:51,840 Speaker 1: repaid for the dirty things you've been saying about Mussolini. Yeah, 399 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:55,360 Speaker 1: and George just went like, get off my property. Yeah, 400 00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:58,439 Speaker 1: just the usual. Yeah. So remember we said that he 401 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:02,400 Speaker 1: was outspoken about Mussolina and politics. Um, clearly this got 402 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:07,160 Speaker 1: around to this dude, and uh, it's just a weird, 403 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 1: disconcerting thing to say, especially after these kids look like 404 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:13,440 Speaker 1: they may have perished in this fire. Yeah, especially if 405 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:15,240 Speaker 1: he didn't like make a big deal out of it 406 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:18,359 Speaker 1: at the time. Was this like a normal business attempt 407 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:24,520 Speaker 1: in West Virginia among the Italian community, Like your kids 408 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:27,000 Speaker 1: are gonna die, You'll be repaid for what you've been 409 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:30,160 Speaker 1: saying about Mussolini. Good day to you. I don't know. 410 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:33,400 Speaker 1: I'm sure that's not in the handbook. What's even fishier, though, Chuck, 411 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:36,879 Speaker 1: is that same guy served on the coroner's inquest jury 412 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:40,640 Speaker 1: that ruled that the fire was the result of faulty wiring. Yeah, 413 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:43,320 Speaker 1: it all gets a little weird. Yeah. Uh. And then 414 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:45,520 Speaker 1: one other, well, not one other, quite a few other 415 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:49,080 Speaker 1: weird things. Um. One of the older sons said that, 416 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:52,040 Speaker 1: you know what, right before Christmas, there was a dude 417 00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:56,879 Speaker 1: parked right across from our house, watching the school bus 418 00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:59,680 Speaker 1: and watching the younger kids get off the school bus 419 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:01,680 Speaker 1: and come to the house. And it was clear that 420 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 1: he was sitting there watching us, and it was strange. Yeah, 421 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 1: he was in a van. Was he really? No? I 422 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:09,440 Speaker 1: bet he was. He would have been if it were 423 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:13,120 Speaker 1: like the seventies all that. Yeah, that's trip sickos and seventies. 424 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:16,600 Speaker 1: So Chuck, let's take another break, because the mystery is 425 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:21,919 Speaker 1: about to deepen even more. The plot thickens et cetera. 426 00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:49,240 Speaker 1: All right, so things are getting a little weird, and 427 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, now Jenny and George, the solder 428 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:56,879 Speaker 1: um parents, start thinking, like, wait a minute, are our 429 00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 1: kids actually dead? Who is the last person to see 430 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:06,399 Speaker 1: them alive? The if if John and George Jr. To 431 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:09,159 Speaker 1: be believed they were the last ones to see him 432 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 1: alive because they went and shook them awake, but they 433 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 1: may not have actually done that well, and they changed 434 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:19,760 Speaker 1: her story to say that they didn't. So then technically 435 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:23,800 Speaker 1: Mary in, the seventeen year old older sister who brought 436 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:25,639 Speaker 1: the toys and was downstairs with the kids while they 437 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:27,520 Speaker 1: were playing with them, would have been the last to 438 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:30,880 Speaker 1: see them alive. But I could never find anybody pressing 439 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:33,680 Speaker 1: her for what her story was. So the assumption that 440 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:35,600 Speaker 1: I'm going on is that she just fell asleep on 441 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:37,479 Speaker 1: the couch, and when she fell asleep, the kids were 442 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,639 Speaker 1: still downstairs. But the solders are starting to wonder, like, 443 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 1: wait a minute, where those kids even in the house 444 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 1: when the house went down, And they they're backed up 445 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:49,400 Speaker 1: by the idea that no remains were found. Yeah, that's 446 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:51,960 Speaker 1: the one that really is bothering them. They're like, something 447 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:55,000 Speaker 1: should have been found. Yeah, and um, all of a sudden, 448 00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:57,480 Speaker 1: this this story is starting to get national attention in 449 00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:02,040 Speaker 1: the press. And the Saw later on would say, George 450 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:04,719 Speaker 1: would say, if they were burned in the house, if 451 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:07,879 Speaker 1: they died in that house fire, I want to be convinced. 452 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:10,520 Speaker 1: And if they weren't, I want to know what happened 453 00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:13,359 Speaker 1: to them. Um. And this kind of kicked off like 454 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:17,199 Speaker 1: a lifelong quest for for George and Jenny. Um. And 455 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:20,520 Speaker 1: in nine to try to literally get to the bottom 456 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:24,439 Speaker 1: of it, they hired a guy to come in and investigate, 457 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:29,240 Speaker 1: to basically excavate the memorial site and look for the 458 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 1: remains of the children, and he didn't find it. Well. Yeah, 459 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,280 Speaker 1: and previous to that, they did their own experiments with 460 00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:40,119 Speaker 1: burning things, animal bones and uh, just sort of self 461 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:43,280 Speaker 1: experimentation to see what would remained. And there was always bones, 462 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:45,240 Speaker 1: of course. Yeah, they could never get them to just 463 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:47,960 Speaker 1: to to turn into ash. Uh. They went to a 464 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:50,200 Speaker 1: crematorium even and said, you know, we're probably just not 465 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:52,920 Speaker 1: even getting this thing hot enough. And they said, well, 466 00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:57,480 Speaker 1: actually at two thousand degrees it would take two hours 467 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:00,600 Speaker 1: to completely burn a body up. Your how didn't get 468 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:03,080 Speaker 1: nearly that hot and it only burned for thirty to 469 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:06,120 Speaker 1: forty five minutes, so there should definitely be human remains 470 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:10,240 Speaker 1: like all over the place. Jenny kind of really turned 471 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:14,400 Speaker 1: into like this citizen scientist. Actually, she taught herself forensics 472 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 1: as far as burning of remains goes. She um looked 473 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:22,040 Speaker 1: into other fires. There was another fire that happened around 474 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:25,639 Speaker 1: the same time that killed seven people. Uh, and the 475 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 1: remains of all seven people were found in the in 476 00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:31,879 Speaker 1: the burned out house as well. So she's like getting 477 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:34,040 Speaker 1: more and more convinced, and so is George that their 478 00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 1: kids are still alive. So in nine they had a 479 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:43,000 Speaker 1: a forensic investigator of some sort of coming and do 480 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 1: an investigation and an excavation of the site. And he 481 00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:50,000 Speaker 1: turned up some stuff. He found some coins, found a 482 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:53,200 Speaker 1: dictionary that had belonged to the kids, and he did 483 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:57,480 Speaker 1: actually find some vertebra and he had the vertebras sent 484 00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:01,480 Speaker 1: off to the Smithsonian Institution actually, and they investigated this 485 00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:05,720 Speaker 1: and issued a report about the bones. Yes they did. 486 00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:09,120 Speaker 1: They said the human bones consist of four lumbar vertebrae 487 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:13,679 Speaker 1: belonging to one individual. The transverse recess of fused, so 488 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:15,720 Speaker 1: the age of this individual death should have been sixteen 489 00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:19,960 Speaker 1: or seventeen top limit twenty two UM. And on this basis, 490 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,840 Speaker 1: the bones show greater skepter maturation than what I would 491 00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:25,240 Speaker 1: expect from a fourteen year old who was the oldest 492 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:30,760 Speaker 1: missing child. So basically, it was either placed there by someone, 493 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:32,879 Speaker 1: It was not charred, it was not a part of 494 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:35,600 Speaker 1: the fire, one of the fire, It wasn't one of 495 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 1: the kids. And it was either place there by someone 496 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,640 Speaker 1: or brought it happened to be in that dirt. Can 497 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:46,080 Speaker 1: you imagine that? Like, think about that. George went and 498 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:48,120 Speaker 1: got a bunch of filled dirt to come and fill 499 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:50,760 Speaker 1: in this memorial site and ended up disturbing a grave, 500 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:54,160 Speaker 1: like maybe an unmarked grave somewhere that didn't find I 501 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:57,320 Speaker 1: didn't think that was remarkable. That's crazy. If you ain't 502 00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 1: got filled dirt and you found bones, human bones, Yeah, 503 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:04,760 Speaker 1: I wouldn't. Can you tell by the pitch of my 504 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:08,520 Speaker 1: voice that that is crazy? I can. The other weird 505 00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:12,959 Speaker 1: thing that they found was a, uh, this green rubber 506 00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:16,840 Speaker 1: casing that later they found out it was a part 507 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 1: of some kind of bomb um an incendiary device, And 508 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:24,480 Speaker 1: some people think that that's a weird thing to have 509 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 1: on your property. House had just burned. And they think 510 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:31,120 Speaker 1: this could have been the sound that Jeanie heard in 511 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:32,640 Speaker 1: the middle of the night when something hit the roof 512 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,560 Speaker 1: and rolled off. Who knows, but she didn't hear a 513 00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:37,720 Speaker 1: big boom. It seemed like if it was a bomb, 514 00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:42,720 Speaker 1: that would have been pretty obvious. Yeah, but I mean, 515 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:46,520 Speaker 1: if it was like a napalm bombment doesn't necessarily explode 516 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:50,480 Speaker 1: it just like nites breads. Yeah, so then I'll make noise. 517 00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:56,280 Speaker 1: I don't know, we'll go experiment with one. UM so 518 00:29:56,680 --> 00:30:02,160 Speaker 1: that that objection speculation right. That Smith's Zonian report actually said, 519 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:06,120 Speaker 1: it's really curious that that the bodies weren't recovered or 520 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 1: found in this pretty good excavation that you guys hired 521 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:13,000 Speaker 1: this dude to do. UM and it actually set off 522 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 1: a larger investigation in West Virginia. The governor and the 523 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:20,960 Speaker 1: UM I think the state police superintendent both said, what 524 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:23,800 Speaker 1: you guys are doing is hopeless. The cases closed. Your 525 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:28,840 Speaker 1: kids died in that fire. The case closed. And the 526 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:31,480 Speaker 1: solders were like, no, we're going to go hire a 527 00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:34,680 Speaker 1: private detective. And they did hire a private detective and 528 00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:38,840 Speaker 1: he started sniffing around town. And UM, I heard a 529 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:42,400 Speaker 1: weird rumor that the police that the fire chief had 530 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:45,320 Speaker 1: said that he actually found a heart and had put 531 00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:47,280 Speaker 1: it in a box and buried it at the site, 532 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:50,480 Speaker 1: which is a weird thing to do, it is. And 533 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:52,840 Speaker 1: he went to the guy and was like, you gotta 534 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:55,760 Speaker 1: show me where this thing's buried. Uh. He does. He 535 00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:58,640 Speaker 1: actually dig it up, and they find a sort of 536 00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:02,920 Speaker 1: I wouldn't say fresh beef liver, freshish but not burned. 537 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:05,479 Speaker 1: And then he admits, you know what, I put this 538 00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:09,080 Speaker 1: there hoping that someone would find this and just think 539 00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:11,200 Speaker 1: it was a body part of one of their kids. 540 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,640 Speaker 1: We can close the case, very ham fisted way of 541 00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:19,680 Speaker 1: closing a case. Yeah. And it's just I don't know 542 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:21,640 Speaker 1: why he thought that would work. I don't want to 543 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:24,040 Speaker 1: say he's dumb, but it was a pretty dumb thing 544 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:28,480 Speaker 1: to do. Uh. So previous to this, all sorts of 545 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:33,280 Speaker 1: weird claims had started to fly in reportings of sightings 546 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:37,360 Speaker 1: all over the country. One woman was operating a tour 547 00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:40,720 Speaker 1: stop about fifty miles west and she said, no, I 548 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:44,720 Speaker 1: saw them the morning after the fire, served in breakfast. Uh. 549 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:48,680 Speaker 1: They got into a car with Florida license plates. Um, 550 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:52,440 Speaker 1: and and trust me it was your kids. Yeah. So 551 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:56,840 Speaker 1: that freaks him out, of course. Uh. Then there was 552 00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 1: a hotel not too far in Charleston, and apparently late 553 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,840 Speaker 1: at night, the UM I think four kids had checked 554 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:08,120 Speaker 1: in accompanied by some adults, two women and two men, 555 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:11,200 Speaker 1: all Italian. And she said, I tried to talk to 556 00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:14,280 Speaker 1: the kids and tried to be nice, and the dudes 557 00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:17,360 Speaker 1: freaked out and started talking Italian and like shuffled the 558 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:19,160 Speaker 1: kids out of there real quick. Yeah, and they left 559 00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:22,640 Speaker 1: early the next morning, super super sketchy. Some ladies said 560 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,040 Speaker 1: that she saw the kids looking out of a car 561 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:29,880 Speaker 1: that was driving by as the house was on fire. UM. 562 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:32,040 Speaker 1: And then there were even more tips that kind of 563 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:37,200 Speaker 1: poured in over the years, UM, including one uh that 564 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:40,479 Speaker 1: said that they were actually being held by a distant 565 00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:45,080 Speaker 1: relative of Jenny's. UM. Someone said that Martha was in 566 00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:49,200 Speaker 1: a convent out west I believe YEP. In nineteen sixty seven, 567 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:52,400 Speaker 1: they got a letter from a lady in Houston said that, uh, 568 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,720 Speaker 1: the oldest boy or one of the boys Lewis had 569 00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:58,400 Speaker 1: lived in that town, got drunk one night and basically 570 00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:02,080 Speaker 1: told everyone who he was. UM. They actually went and 571 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:05,160 Speaker 1: in fact, George Sauder and sometimes Jenny he would go 572 00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:08,160 Speaker 1: all over the country tracking down these leads and always 573 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:11,760 Speaker 1: sadly comes back empty handed. When he went to Texas, 574 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:14,840 Speaker 1: he got down there, met with the guy and it 575 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:19,240 Speaker 1: wasn't his son, obviously, but um, you know, I had 576 00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:22,000 Speaker 1: to go back and tell his wife, like another another 577 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:26,120 Speaker 1: zero in this one. Yeah, and like it's really sad 578 00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:27,800 Speaker 1: when you step back and look at it from the 579 00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:31,480 Speaker 1: perspective of the parents, like they were not convinced that 580 00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:33,400 Speaker 1: their kids died in this fire. They were open to 581 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:36,400 Speaker 1: the possibility, but they weren't convinced, and they wanted to 582 00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:38,360 Speaker 1: know for the rest of their lives. So Yeah, he 583 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:41,160 Speaker 1: would go all over the country chasing down leads. And 584 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:43,040 Speaker 1: the reason he would do this, Chuck, is because he 585 00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:47,120 Speaker 1: got no help whatsoever from the local authorities. They the 586 00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:50,160 Speaker 1: solders actually wrote to the FBI and got a reply 587 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:53,320 Speaker 1: from j Edgar Hoover himself that said, I'd love to help, 588 00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:56,080 Speaker 1: but this is out of our jurisdiction. If your local 589 00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:58,560 Speaker 1: cops will invite us to help, we'd be happy to 590 00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:02,360 Speaker 1: help investigate. And the local cops said, thanks anyway, and 591 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:05,960 Speaker 1: turn the FBI down. I can't imagine how frustrating that 592 00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:08,480 Speaker 1: must have been for the solders to see that to 593 00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:10,799 Speaker 1: see Jack or Hoover say we'll help out, But these 594 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:13,960 Speaker 1: guys have to invite us and get turned down for that, 595 00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:15,680 Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, so that I mean it was the 596 00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:18,759 Speaker 1: kind of their life obsession, and obsession is a really 597 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,560 Speaker 1: good good way to put it. There's a story of 598 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:24,520 Speaker 1: George seeing a picture in a paper of a ballet 599 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:28,400 Speaker 1: class in Manhattan, and he became convinced that one of 600 00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:31,239 Speaker 1: the girls in the picture was his daughter, Betty, and 601 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:33,920 Speaker 1: he drove to Manhattan and demanded to see his daughter, 602 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:37,359 Speaker 1: and the parents are the school was like, you need 603 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:39,399 Speaker 1: to get out of here, dude, you've lost your mind. 604 00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:42,520 Speaker 1: This is our kid. No, you can't see our kid. 605 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:45,480 Speaker 1: So he had to go back home after that. So 606 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:50,520 Speaker 1: it gets super weird. Jenny comes home, gets a male 607 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:54,279 Speaker 1: and sees a letter addressed to her, not to the 608 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:56,720 Speaker 1: family or to her and her husband. To Jenny Sawder 609 00:34:56,760 --> 00:35:00,279 Speaker 1: opens it up, post markedin Kentucky, no return address, and 610 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:03,279 Speaker 1: there was a photo of an Italian man. Well, I 611 00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:05,480 Speaker 1: looked at the Italian in his mid twenties, so the 612 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:08,520 Speaker 1: age fits. And on the back of it it said, 613 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:14,800 Speaker 1: in handwriting, Louis Solder, I love brother Frankie, I l 614 00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:19,719 Speaker 1: I l boys, A little boys, A nine zero, one 615 00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:25,960 Speaker 1: two or three five, no idea, the most weird, mysterious 616 00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:28,160 Speaker 1: thing you could imagine. And I looked at a picture. 617 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:30,680 Speaker 1: They were like, this very well could be our son. 618 00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:33,319 Speaker 1: It looks a lot like him. It looks more like 619 00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:35,879 Speaker 1: him than I do. I didn't think it was him. 620 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:38,640 Speaker 1: I was like, the eyebrows didn't match to me, the 621 00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:41,719 Speaker 1: nose didn't match. But you can never tell a kid 622 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:44,000 Speaker 1: from nine to twenty five, you know, because this is 623 00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:47,680 Speaker 1: almost twenty he might have looked like you know, it 624 00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:51,319 Speaker 1: could be true, he might have looked different enough. Um. 625 00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:54,319 Speaker 1: But yeah, that mystery just was never ever solved. And 626 00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:57,239 Speaker 1: so back in the fifties, like after they started getting 627 00:35:57,239 --> 00:35:59,479 Speaker 1: shut down by the local cops and then the state 628 00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:02,400 Speaker 1: cops and everybody, they you know, they started to take 629 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:04,040 Speaker 1: matters in their own hands. And one of the things 630 00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:06,439 Speaker 1: they did was erect that billboard that you asked Justin 631 00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:11,480 Speaker 1: McElroy about. It became kind of famous. Aside from the McIlroy's, 632 00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:14,480 Speaker 1: everybody in West Virginia knew about it. UM. And it 633 00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:19,160 Speaker 1: was a billboard on the Sawder's property with pictures, big 634 00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:22,319 Speaker 1: pictures of the five children UM with their name and 635 00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:26,240 Speaker 1: age and then basically uh rundown of what the family 636 00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:29,319 Speaker 1: thought may have happened to them. And it was at 637 00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:31,560 Speaker 1: first they offered a five thousand dollar reward and then 638 00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:34,560 Speaker 1: up to the ten thousand dollars. Yeah, and they owned it. 639 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:37,000 Speaker 1: So it was there for I mean until the eighties 640 00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:41,960 Speaker 1: until um so, George died in night and then Jenny 641 00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:44,759 Speaker 1: died in nine And after Jenny died, they took the 642 00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:48,520 Speaker 1: billboard down. That's right. What other reports came in. One 643 00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:52,240 Speaker 1: bus driver said he claimed he saw someone throwing quote 644 00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:56,400 Speaker 1: fireballs onto the house. Some of this stuff reeks that 645 00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:59,279 Speaker 1: I was pretty wasted at the time. Some of the 646 00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:01,719 Speaker 1: stuff reeks of like that after the fact stuff that 647 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:04,719 Speaker 1: people kind of invent like wait a minute, saw gout 648 00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:09,640 Speaker 1: throwing fireballs? Right, But there was verified after the fact weirdness. 649 00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:12,000 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, for sure. You know that keeps this this 650 00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:15,120 Speaker 1: case alive. Like one thing we didn't mention. Their telephone 651 00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:18,080 Speaker 1: line was cut. Yeah, and some people say it was 652 00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:20,080 Speaker 1: a guy that stole the ladder, climbed up cut the 653 00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:24,200 Speaker 1: phone lines so they couldn't reach anyone. Uh but I 654 00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:26,000 Speaker 1: mean you said they found the guy. Did he did 655 00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:28,000 Speaker 1: they ask him about that? From what I understand, they 656 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:31,080 Speaker 1: didn't ask him anything. They just find him for for theft, 657 00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:35,160 Speaker 1: ladder theft and block and tackle theft. Oh. The other 658 00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:40,040 Speaker 1: weird thing is, um they hired another private investigator at 659 00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:43,040 Speaker 1: one point to track down where that letter came from. Yeah, 660 00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:46,880 Speaker 1: the Kentucky picture of Lewis and this guy just disappears. Yeah. 661 00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:49,200 Speaker 1: He may have just been like a CD gum shoe, 662 00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:51,960 Speaker 1: you know, maybe and just took their money. Quite possibly, 663 00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:54,520 Speaker 1: or maybe he was murdered because he found out the truth. 664 00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:56,800 Speaker 1: I don't know, but they said that he literally vanished 665 00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:59,440 Speaker 1: like they couldn't ever reach him again. I think it's 666 00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:01,319 Speaker 1: likely he was a seedy gum should we just took 667 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:04,880 Speaker 1: some desperate families money and hopefully he's burning in hell? 668 00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:07,040 Speaker 1: Did the mafia rub him out? Because that became one 669 00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:09,799 Speaker 1: of the leading theories is that George was approached by 670 00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:15,560 Speaker 1: the mafia, rebuff their advances and um that was it. 671 00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:19,400 Speaker 1: They they took the kids. Uh well yeah, And supposedly 672 00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:21,839 Speaker 1: it's not just a total flight of fancy. Apparently the 673 00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:24,160 Speaker 1: mafia was really big in the coal business and the 674 00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:27,400 Speaker 1: trucking business in the area at that time, so it 675 00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:30,160 Speaker 1: is entirely possible he was approached by the mafia, and 676 00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:31,759 Speaker 1: he does sound like the kind of guy who tell 677 00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:35,520 Speaker 1: him to like go stick it. Yeah, you know. He 678 00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:40,200 Speaker 1: also may have made some enemies with the Mussolini cracks. Uh. 679 00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:43,279 Speaker 1: What else was there? Well, one thing that that was 680 00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:46,920 Speaker 1: lost to time was that vertebrae, even though it's almost 681 00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:52,160 Speaker 1: that it was not one of the kids. At least 682 00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:54,640 Speaker 1: if they still had that, they could DNA test it now. Yeah, 683 00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:57,560 Speaker 1: but of course they can't. Yeah. And so little little 684 00:38:57,600 --> 00:38:59,960 Speaker 1: baby Sylvia who was two maybe three at the time, 685 00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:04,320 Speaker 1: I think two is is what I've seen most Um 686 00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:07,920 Speaker 1: is the last surviving Solder child. And she said, like 687 00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:10,279 Speaker 1: these are her earliest memories are of that night of 688 00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:12,439 Speaker 1: the fire and seeing her father like losing his mind, 689 00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:17,280 Speaker 1: training in his house and bleeding. Um. And she promised 690 00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:19,719 Speaker 1: her parents that she would keep the story alive, so 691 00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:23,640 Speaker 1: she she talks about it a lot. Um. She goes 692 00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:28,920 Speaker 1: onto the online like online sleuth websites that talk about 693 00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:31,560 Speaker 1: the case, and like kind of feeds information to people 694 00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:34,880 Speaker 1: and tries to keep the story alive. It's just crazy, man. 695 00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:37,880 Speaker 1: You go to bed, you wake up with a fire, 696 00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:41,840 Speaker 1: and five of your five of your children are just vanished, 697 00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:44,719 Speaker 1: and there's no way they burned up to nothing. That's 698 00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:47,719 Speaker 1: just impossible. So I I read this blog post. Like 699 00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:51,560 Speaker 1: a MPR person named Stacy Horn did a piece on 700 00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:54,839 Speaker 1: it like years back, and she wrote this really long 701 00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:57,320 Speaker 1: blog post about stuff they have been cut from the 702 00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:00,160 Speaker 1: from the piece, and I got the impress and they 703 00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:02,120 Speaker 1: were trying to play up the mystery. And she said 704 00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:04,640 Speaker 1: that she personally came to believe that the children did 705 00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:07,759 Speaker 1: die in the fire, and that there was plenty of 706 00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:10,919 Speaker 1: evidence that supports that idea, but that the media tends 707 00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:14,880 Speaker 1: to play up the other But she also said that 708 00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:18,240 Speaker 1: there's enough weird stuff surrounding it that if she learned 709 00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:22,120 Speaker 1: that they were still alive, she wouldn't be shocked. Well yeah, 710 00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:25,360 Speaker 1: and the fact that they never got in touch, because 711 00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:27,920 Speaker 1: you you know, it's not like these kids were strange 712 00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:29,719 Speaker 1: from their parents or I mean, they were a tight 713 00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:32,400 Speaker 1: knit family by all accounts, right, And the family rationalized 714 00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:34,880 Speaker 1: that by saying that their family was in danger and 715 00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:37,440 Speaker 1: they were trying to protect their parents by never getting 716 00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:41,319 Speaker 1: into which would kind of align with the mafia theory. Yeah. 717 00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:46,680 Speaker 1: Just terrible, man, lose half your family without a trace. Yeah, Uh, 718 00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:48,440 Speaker 1: if you want to know more about this. There's plenty 719 00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:50,839 Speaker 1: of sites on the internet that have stuff, but we 720 00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:53,799 Speaker 1: found this really great article that we basedus on by 721 00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:56,279 Speaker 1: Karen Abbott. It was called The Children Who Went Up 722 00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:59,560 Speaker 1: and Smoke. Yeah, the NPR wents good and Stacy Hornson 723 00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:01,279 Speaker 1: is pretty old too. You know, it's weird. Does I 724 00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:03,360 Speaker 1: have a good friend named Stacy Horn is not the 725 00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:06,480 Speaker 1: same one? No? But when I clicked, I was like, oh, interesting, 726 00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:08,320 Speaker 1: and I clicked on her thing and it said Stacy 727 00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:12,520 Speaker 1: Horn like cat. She's a cat person. My friend Stacy 728 00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:15,000 Speaker 1: is a noted cat person and it's not the same person, 729 00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:19,640 Speaker 1: you know, And I was like, weird doppelganger? Yeah, no, no, 730 00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:23,760 Speaker 1: maybe the name doppelganger. Yeah, I'd have to see her face. 731 00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:27,680 Speaker 1: I think I said something, well, how about this search bar? 732 00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:30,279 Speaker 1: And since I since search bar, it's time for listener mail, 733 00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:36,759 Speaker 1: Chuck handy dandy search bar. People said that they miss that. 734 00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:39,279 Speaker 1: I used to say that the handy search bar. Yeah. 735 00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:41,680 Speaker 1: I don't think I said handy dandy did ida? I 736 00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:46,400 Speaker 1: don't know. Maybe Jerry said yes, that's back when she listened, 737 00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:51,239 Speaker 1: so I would take that better word. Hey, guys, huge 738 00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:55,880 Speaker 1: fan of the show too. Exclamation points. Yeah. I've been 739 00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:57,719 Speaker 1: listening to your show for about a year now, and 740 00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:00,120 Speaker 1: I turned my wife and kids onto the program, and 741 00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:01,920 Speaker 1: they're all hooked. We had a stuff you Should Know 742 00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:05,840 Speaker 1: marathon even in our car ride back to Chicago from Athens, Georgia. 743 00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:08,600 Speaker 1: We look forward to your new episodes and are burning 744 00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:11,839 Speaker 1: through them quickly to pick up the pace. You guys 745 00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:15,000 Speaker 1: made reference to lead paints being on roadside signs. That 746 00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:19,520 Speaker 1: is highly unlikely, says Sean. Uh. Those signs are changed 747 00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:23,040 Speaker 1: quite frequently in our base, predominantly uh. And then he 748 00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:28,200 Speaker 1: goes on to name like eight different types of pigment 749 00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:32,239 Speaker 1: chemistries which I won't read out, and other mixtures of 750 00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:37,240 Speaker 1: iron oxides uh. He said. Lead chromates can still be found, however, 751 00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:40,600 Speaker 1: in road markings like yellow and white lines on the street. 752 00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:44,040 Speaker 1: Any new road markings are now done with the chemistries 753 00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:47,200 Speaker 1: I mentioned previously, but there are many states across the 754 00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:50,000 Speaker 1: country that still haven't gotten around replacing removing the lead 755 00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:52,920 Speaker 1: chromate based paints on the street. Not trying to knitpick. 756 00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:56,080 Speaker 1: It's common misconception of people outside the color industry, and 757 00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:58,680 Speaker 1: based on my nerd ing out with the chemistry name dropping, 758 00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:01,320 Speaker 1: I bet you can't guess what industry I'm in. Here's 759 00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:05,600 Speaker 1: a hint. I don't dance. So he's saying he's a 760 00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:09,839 Speaker 1: chemistry nerd. Was ever dood dancing? Chemistry nerds don't dance. 761 00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:13,600 Speaker 1: I think that may be a reference. Is something we 762 00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:17,040 Speaker 1: said that I'm not picking up on. Maybe maybe Sean 763 00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:19,160 Speaker 1: can clear it up. Yeah, we need to follow up 764 00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:22,880 Speaker 1: listener mail. All right, that's from Sean Mula. Oh it 765 00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:26,920 Speaker 1: was German. He didn't he dropped the room out. Okay, 766 00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:31,520 Speaker 1: so Mueller he didn't want that association. Well, thanks Shan, 767 00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:36,000 Speaker 1: we appreciate that. Uh, let us know about the dancing thing. 768 00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:38,600 Speaker 1: I think we're not the only ones who are curious, right, Yeah, 769 00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:41,719 Speaker 1: I'm not sure what that means. If you know what 770 00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:43,799 Speaker 1: Shaan is talking about, you can tweet to us at 771 00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:46,240 Speaker 1: s y s K podcast. You can join us on Facebook, 772 00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:48,359 Speaker 1: dot com, slash Stuff you Should Know, You can send 773 00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:50,399 Speaker 1: us an email and stuff podcast at how Stuff Works 774 00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:52,160 Speaker 1: dot com, and there's always joined us at at home 775 00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:57,240 Speaker 1: on the web. Stuff you Should Know dot Com. Stuff 776 00:43:57,239 --> 00:43:59,240 Speaker 1: you Should Know is a production of I Heart Radio 777 00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:02,279 Speaker 1: from our podcasts My Heart Radio, visit the I Heart 778 00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:05,239 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to your 779 00:44:05,239 --> 00:44:12,600 Speaker 1: favorite shows h m hm