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Speaker 1: Hey, Daniel, do you worry at all about answering listener emails? Now?

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Speaker 1: What do I have to worry about? You know, you're

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Speaker 1: offering secrets of the universe for free to anyone on

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Speaker 1: the internet. What's wrong with that? That's kind of my job.

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Speaker 1: I mean, how do you know what they're gonna do

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Speaker 1: with that information? Oh? I see You're worried someone out

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Speaker 1: there is sitting in their underground layer, stroking a white

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Speaker 1: cat in their lap and looking for physical advice about

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Speaker 1: how to build a doomsday device a little bit. Yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: so far nobody has asked me how to build a

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Speaker 1: nuclear warhead. Wait didn't we answer that in a podcast already? Oh? Yeah, Oops,

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Speaker 1: we did to give away those secrets. You know, maybe

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Speaker 1: you'ld have the government filtering your emails, Daniel say, if

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Speaker 1: they're not already listening, if you're hearing this, it means

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Speaker 1: they let this one through. Hi, I am more handmade

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Speaker 1: cartoonists and the creator of PhD comments. Hi. I'm Daniel.

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Speaker 1: I'm a particle physicist, and I don't have any actual

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Speaker 1: useful practical knowledge. But you do have a white cat

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Speaker 1: that you're stroking right now. I don't anymore. I don't anymore. No,

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Speaker 1: I have a beautiful pandemic puppy that we adopted, but

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Speaker 1: he's not part of my doomsday plan to take over

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Speaker 1: the world, right right. You never see any villains supervillains

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Speaker 1: having a dog, right, It's always like a cat or

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Speaker 1: some kind of lizard, some kind of dangerous animal. That's

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Speaker 1: because dogs are inherently good and sympathetic. I can't imagine

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Speaker 1: evil person having a pet dog, right right. I guess

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Speaker 1: they would make the supervillain turn good, probably exactly exactly,

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Speaker 1: whereas cats, on the other hand, they were happy to

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Speaker 1: snuggle up to an evil dude. Lower standards cats, But

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Speaker 1: welcome to our universe. Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe

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Speaker 1: a production of I Heart Radio in which we explain

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Speaker 1: the universe to us, to you, two cats and two dogs.

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Speaker 1: We talk about everything that's out there, including all the

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Speaker 1: pets in the universe, and all the crazy things that

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Speaker 1: we see, the things we hear, and the things that

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Speaker 1: we can just barely detect with the most powerful scientific

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Speaker 1: instruments ever devised. We try to weave it all together

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Speaker 1: to you into a tapestry of understanding, so that you

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Speaker 1: can grasp what we do and what we don't know

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Speaker 1: yet about the universe, because it is a pretty big

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Speaker 1: carpet of a universe, filled with small details and large

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Speaker 1: amazing facts for us to discover. And Daniel, do you

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Speaker 1: think we have pet listeners? I think we probably do. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure there are folks out there who listen with

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Speaker 1: their pets, and so their pets are sort of like

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Speaker 1: you know, second hand listeners, and they're absorbing physics. Oh

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Speaker 1: my gosh, what if we give rise to like the

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Speaker 1: first dog genius, some dogs out there taking notes right like,

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Speaker 1: turn that on. I gotta learn exactly how that works,

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Speaker 1: like the tail wax every time we say a banana

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Speaker 1: joke or something. Maybe or when the dogs take over,

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Speaker 1: maybe at least they'll give us credit, you know, for

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Speaker 1: teaching them some secrets of the universe that were critical

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Speaker 1: to their coup and when they are just gonna turn

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Speaker 1: to its owner and be like, hey, I think I

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Speaker 1: figured out how to imagine quantum mechanics and relativity. Also

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Speaker 1: I need more. Yeah, Well, if the only expense to

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Speaker 1: solving the deepest questions in the universe were more dog treats,

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Speaker 1: and I think we could get the National Science Foundation

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Speaker 1: to cover that I know who needs an LHC particle collider.

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Speaker 1: You spend all those billions of dollars in dog treats,

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Speaker 1: that's right, we need like a Chihuahwa thick tank. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know what they say, like the monkeys and typewriter,

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Speaker 1: Let's just get a bunch of dogs, play them all

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Speaker 1: of our podcasts and see what happens. You know, I've

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Speaker 1: been to the dog park in our neighborhood. It's something

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Speaker 1: like a collider. You see dogs running in circles like

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Speaker 1: crazy and sometimes bouncing into each other. But I never

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Speaker 1: see like new weird kinds of dogs created in high

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Speaker 1: energy dog collisions. You just got to crack up the energy, Diniel. Obviously.

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Speaker 1: If there's one thing I learned in this podcast is

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Speaker 1: more energy, more magic. That's right. I guess we just

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Speaker 1: need to double the treats and see what happens. Do

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Speaker 1: you have a special name for your dog, like Cork

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Speaker 1: or Metrino or you know, strong dog or something. No. No No,

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Speaker 1: Our dog is a rescue from Insanata and he came

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Speaker 1: with a name. His name is Pepito, and he is

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Speaker 1: a wonderful member of the family. Now, Pepito, that does

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Speaker 1: sound like a particle to be named that you discover

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Speaker 1: one day, you can name it the Pepito. Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 1: But it is a wonderful universe that we like to

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Speaker 1: talk about, the one that we have, I guess I

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Speaker 1: mean the universe that we know and that we love,

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Speaker 1: that we live in, that we seem to be studying

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Speaker 1: and learning more about. But we sometimes wonder if it's

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Speaker 1: the only universe out there. That's right, There's a lot

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Speaker 1: of things in our universe that we don't understand that

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Speaker 1: seems sort of arbitrary, like why does the electron have

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Speaker 1: the mass that it does, and why is the speed

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Speaker 1: of light the number that it is. This is just

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Speaker 1: like list of numbers that describe and define our universe,

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Speaker 1: and if those numbers were different, the way everything worked

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Speaker 1: would be totally different. So we wonder sometimes is this

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Speaker 1: the only set of numbers there going to be? Are

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Speaker 1: there other universe is with different numbers or the control

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Speaker 1: rule of that universe has different settings on their knobs?

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Speaker 1: Right right? With Pepito? Have more energy at the dot

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Speaker 1: park impossible, He's already going maximum dog speed. He's reached

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Speaker 1: the limit of the universe. But it is sort of

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Speaker 1: like the universe has like a serial number, right. I

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Speaker 1: was trying to think of a good example of to

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Speaker 1: illustrate this, But it's sort of like the universe has

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Speaker 1: a serial number, and you look at the serial number

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Speaker 1: and you think, like, oh, where did that number come from?

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Speaker 1: There must be other universes with maybe a different serial number. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And it's not just that we have arbitrry numbers. When

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Speaker 1: physicists look at these numbers, they think sometimes the numbers

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Speaker 1: look weird, like unusual, Like if you randomly pick these numbers,

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Speaker 1: these would be rare. And that makes people think like, wow,

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Speaker 1: maybe there's a lot of universes, so many that you

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Speaker 1: even have weird and rare numbers. That's kind of a

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Speaker 1: weak argument because even if there are lots and lots

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Speaker 1: of universes, we have no real reason to understand why

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Speaker 1: some numbers are preferred or some numbers are not or

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Speaker 1: what would be rare. But physicists they like numbers like

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Speaker 1: one or zero or pie. They don't like numbers like

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Speaker 1: one divided by a hundred and thirty seven. So when

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Speaker 1: they see a number like that, they go, that's weird.

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Speaker 1: I wonder why. It's like looking at your serial number

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Speaker 1: and seeing it that it's like three three, You're like,

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Speaker 1: that's weird. We must have gotten like a weird, crazy

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Speaker 1: coincidence number in our serial number. Yeah, but maybe not,

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Speaker 1: And maybe all the numbers are out there and only

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Speaker 1: the people with three three are the ones going, Oh,

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Speaker 1: that's weird. I wonder what that means? Am I special?

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Speaker 1: Or maybe there's a reason. Maybe it's the only number

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Speaker 1: that works. Maybe there's some underlying idea that restricts what

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Speaker 1: these numbers can be that says, the electron mass has

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Speaker 1: to be this, and the speed of light has to

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Speaker 1: be that, and the strength of gravity has to be this.

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Speaker 1: We just haven't figured it out yet, right. It could

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Speaker 1: be that they only made one universe and they happened

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Speaker 1: to put the serial number three three through three, right,

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Speaker 1: Like who knows, right, Yeah, But these are really fun

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Speaker 1: questions because they make you like totally blow up your

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Speaker 1: mind and think about the whole context, not just of

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Speaker 1: the human experience, but of the universe. Like if the

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Speaker 1: whole universe, with its billions and trillions of stars, is

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Speaker 1: just one of many universes, it's just like blowing your

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Speaker 1: mind at the next level. Right, that's this idea of

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Speaker 1: the multiverse, which we've talked about here in our podcast,

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Speaker 1: and we've talked about how there are different flavors of

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Speaker 1: the multiverse. But I think the basic ideas that made

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Speaker 1: there are other universes out there, and one possible version

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Speaker 1: of the multiverse is that it's like a version of

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Speaker 1: our universe, but with different properties or like different values

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Speaker 1: for different physical things. Right, yeah, precisely, that's one idea

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Speaker 1: of a multiverse, and it's really not too far fetched.

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Speaker 1: You might be thinking a whole lot of seconds. The

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Speaker 1: laws of physics are the laws of physics, and you know,

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Speaker 1: across the metaverse there should be one set of rules

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Speaker 1: that tells everything how it works. Right, Well, there might

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Speaker 1: still be, But what we're talking about here are not

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Speaker 1: like the deepest, truest laws of physics, but sort of

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Speaker 1: the ones we observe in our experiments. These are what

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Speaker 1: we call effective theory is because they don't describe like

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Speaker 1: the universe at its smallest and deepest level. They just

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Speaker 1: describe what we have been able to see so far.

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Speaker 1: The way, for example, like describing the motion of a

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Speaker 1: ball as the parabola isn't a fundamental property of the universe.

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Speaker 1: It's just something that kind of works. Well, the same

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Speaker 1: is true of our laws. Even like the standard model

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Speaker 1: of particle physics, this quantum field theory that's like a

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Speaker 1: crowning intellectual achievement of humanity. We think it's mostly an

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Speaker 1: effective theory and it's controlled by deeper parameters we don't understand.

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Speaker 1: So it's possible that in the multiverse, even if there

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Speaker 1: is like a single coherent theory across the multiverses, it

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Speaker 1: can appear different in different universes because of how those

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Speaker 1: universes break out. For example, of the Higgs field ends

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Speaker 1: up at a different value than all the particles have

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Speaker 1: different masses, and we just don't really understand that deeper

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Speaker 1: theory yet, So we don't really understand how many universes

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Speaker 1: there can be and how it can translate into different theories.

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Speaker 1: But in the end, it is possible that there are

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Speaker 1: other universes out there with different laws of physics because

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Speaker 1: their parameters are different values. Right, I guess you can

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Speaker 1: have multiple universes, some with different laws and some with

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Speaker 1: different values. But I think the one that we're going

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Speaker 1: to tackle today is this possibility of a multiverse multiple

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Speaker 1: universes with the same laws but maybe different values for like,

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Speaker 1: you know, some of the fundamental physical properties, right. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and this comes to us from a future scientist who's

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Speaker 1: inspired to ask us questions because he read a really

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Speaker 1: fun book. Yeah, we have some great questions from Thomas

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Speaker 1: from Ontario who is nine years old and best part,

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Speaker 1: he's a fan of our book. We have no idea

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Speaker 1: a guide to the unknown universe. That's right. His mom

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Speaker 1: wrote to us saying that he really enjoyed reading the book,

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Speaker 1: that it's stimulated his deep thoughts about the nature of

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Speaker 1: the universe, and that he had some questions for us

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Speaker 1: that he wanted to answer. Yeah, so kudos to Thomas

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Speaker 1: for reading the book. I have yet to read our book, Daniel. No,

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Speaker 1: I'm just kidding. I had to read it many times

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Speaker 1: in writing it. But kudos to Thomas for reading the

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Speaker 1: book and for being a fan of physics. It's never

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Speaker 1: too early to start. So here is Thomas asking his questions. Hi.

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Speaker 1: My name is Thomas. I'm from thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada,

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Speaker 1: and I'm nine and I have some questions for you,

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Speaker 1: Daniel Hawaii. Can you do an episode about what would

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Speaker 1: happen if the photon had as much mass as a

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Speaker 1: top quok and another question, what if the neutrino felt

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Speaker 1: strong force? And and my last question, what if the

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Speaker 1: neutrino photo electromagnetism. Whoa it was like a question machine.

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Speaker 1: I know. Let's just hope he doesn't have a white cat,

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Speaker 1: not yet. At least he's gonna listen to this episode

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Speaker 1: and we realize, oh, that's the next step and becoming

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Speaker 1: a super villain. Great, great, get him a dog, put

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Speaker 1: tepedo and a create and ship him over. He could

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Speaker 1: still become a superhero, not a supervillain. Wow, we could

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Speaker 1: intervene and save the planet by turning him to use

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Speaker 1: his powers for good. Yes, at least in this multiverse,

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Speaker 1: in this timeline, Thomas, there is still good in you.

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Speaker 1: I feel the bright side of the force. Now. I'm

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Speaker 1: sure Thomas is an awesome kid, and he just wants

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Speaker 1: to know more about the universe. I imagine he read

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Speaker 1: our book and he saw all of these particles that

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Speaker 1: we talked about and how things could be different, and

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Speaker 1: he probably wondered, like what if they were not what

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Speaker 1: they are right now? Like how would the universe be different?

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Speaker 1: Like would it be totally different? Would it even be possible?

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Speaker 1: Would we all collapse into a black hole or something.

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Speaker 1: That's kind of a big question. Yeah, there's a lot

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Speaker 1: going on there. You know. It's fascinating how the properties

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Speaker 1: that we rely on, the things that make up our existence,

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Speaker 1: come down to these numbers, and if they were different,

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Speaker 1: the universe would feel so different. That's really fun to

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Speaker 1: think about, how the things that are important to us

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Speaker 1: are not really fundamental to the universe itself even if

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Speaker 1: we rely on them. Right, And then the deeper question,

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Speaker 1: you know, of could those numbers be different? Should they

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Speaker 1: be different? Do we know why they are the way

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Speaker 1: they are? Should they be different? That's a meta question,

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Speaker 1: like if we could design the universe, what would it

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Speaker 1: be like? Now you're trying to think like a super villain, Daniel. Yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, there's a lot of debate inside particle physics

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Speaker 1: about whether the equation of the universe should be beautiful.

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Speaker 1: Should we be seeking out a theory that hasn't like

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Speaker 1: an aesthetic appeals that when we really we go, oh

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Speaker 1: my gosh, that's incredible. I love it? Or does it matter?

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Speaker 1: You know, maybe we just need something that works. Even

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Speaker 1: if people are like, jeez, that's kind of a clue.

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Speaker 1: But I guess that's just the way the universe is

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Speaker 1: a bit ugly, but it works. And if it's not beautiful,

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Speaker 1: can we give it a makeover? Can we, like, you know,

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Speaker 1: do a little plastic surgery? Maybe? I see you want

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Speaker 1: to give some notes to the creator, some notes. I

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Speaker 1: don't know love what you did here, but yeah, there

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Speaker 1: you go. Now you're thinking, like a supervillain or an

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Speaker 1: executive producer, rewold the universe according to what we think

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Speaker 1: it should be. I see. So supervillains are just like

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Speaker 1: executive producers on the Universe project. All right, well, thank

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Speaker 1: you Thomas for your questions. We'll start with your first

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Speaker 1: one here. What if the photon had the mass of

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Speaker 1: a top quark. Now, that's a pretty cool question. First

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Speaker 1: of all, like what if the photeson had mass in

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Speaker 1: the first place? Right, Like, that's already a big one.

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Speaker 1: And then what if it had the mass of the

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Speaker 1: top cork, which is kind of one of the heaviest particles, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the top cork is the heaviest fundamental particle we have

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Speaker 1: ever found. It's the cousin of the up cork, which

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Speaker 1: has almost no mass, but it weighs as much as

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Speaker 1: a hundred and seventy five protons, So this tiny little

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Speaker 1: particle has more mass than like a gold atom. So

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Speaker 1: it's really incredible and sort of like at the extreme,

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Speaker 1: which is I think why Thomas is asking, like what

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Speaker 1: if the lightest particle, the one with no mass, had

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Speaker 1: as much mass as the most massive particle? Nice? Alright,

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Speaker 1: so Daniel remind us here, the photon is massless, right,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't have any mass, It doesn't weigh anything. That's right.

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Speaker 1: The photon has no mass, which gives it incredible powers.

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Speaker 1: It means that it can travel at the speed of light,

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Speaker 1: and then it has to travel at the speed of light.

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Speaker 1: You can't ever catch up to a photon. Everybody who's

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Speaker 1: measuring the speed of a photon is going to measure

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Speaker 1: to be the speed of light. And that's because a

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Speaker 1: photon is nothing because it has no mass other then motion.

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Speaker 1: So you can't catch up to it because if you did,

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Speaker 1: there would be nothing there. There's no like frame of

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Speaker 1: reference of the photon because there's nothing there but it's motion.

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Speaker 1: So it's sort of a really awesome special case. And

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Speaker 1: it's also really cool because it's in contrast to other

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Speaker 1: very very similar particles that do have mass like the

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Speaker 1: w and the z bosons. These to play the same

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Speaker 1: role as the photon except for the weak fource, but

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Speaker 1: they do have mass. So we actually have an example

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Speaker 1: in our universe of like a massive version of the photon.

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Speaker 1: And I guess I'm just going back to what you

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Speaker 1: said the photon. Because it has no mass, it has

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Speaker 1: to go at the speed of light, right, Like, that's

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Speaker 1: one of the rules of the universe. Anything without mass

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Speaker 1: has to go at the speed of light. Yea, and

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Speaker 1: not just photons, gluons for example, are any particle that

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Speaker 1: has no mass has to always go at the speed

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Speaker 1: of light and nothing else can, right, And is there

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Speaker 1: sort of an explanation as to what it has to

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Speaker 1: go at the speed of light because it has no mass,

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Speaker 1: it has to go to the speed of light, or

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Speaker 1: because it has to go at the speed of light

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Speaker 1: it can't have any mass. It has to go at

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Speaker 1: the speed of light because it doesn't have mass. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because anything with mass will travel at the maximum speed,

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Speaker 1: and because you can never catch up to it, and

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Speaker 1: so it will always travel at some speed you can't

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Speaker 1: ever gain on it. Right, You'll always be measuring travel

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Speaker 1: at the same speed because there's nothing there, it's just

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Speaker 1: motion and that's because it has no mass. So I

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Speaker 1: would say, because it has no mass, therefore it travels

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Speaker 1: at the speed of light. Right, and the photon and

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Speaker 1: remind me, it's like the force transmitting particle for the

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Speaker 1: electromagnetic force. Right, that's right. The way like electrons push

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Speaker 1: against each other is that they pass photons back and forth.

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Speaker 1: You can think of photons is like ripples in the

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Speaker 1: electromagnetic field. And when an electron pushes against another electron

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Speaker 1: is doing so using its field. But you can also

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Speaker 1: think of those fields effectively is like a bunch of

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Speaker 1: photons added up. So yeah, you can think of photons

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Speaker 1: is like a way to transmit the electromagnetic force. Right.

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Speaker 1: And so the photon is doesn't have any mass, which

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Speaker 1: I guess means it doesn't interact with the Eiggs field

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Speaker 1: or does, but it has no effect. That's how things

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Speaker 1: have mass in the first place. Right, they interact with

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Speaker 1: the Higgs field. Yeah, the photon does not interact with

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Speaker 1: the Higgs field. And it's sort of really interesting and

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Speaker 1: super awesome because the photon actually is part of this

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Speaker 1: group of particles, the W particles and the Z and

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Speaker 1: the photon. They make a quadruplet. They're like all linked

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Speaker 1: together because the electromagnetic force is really connected to the

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Speaker 1: weak force. It's in one force called the electro weak force,

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Speaker 1: and this quadrupletive particles. They all do interact with the

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Speaker 1: Higgs field, and if the Higgs wasn't around, they would

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Speaker 1: all be massless, they would all be zero mass. But

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Speaker 1: the Higgs makes three of them heavy. It turns the

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Speaker 1: Z and the two ws into heavy particles. But then

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Speaker 1: it's sort of used up. It can only make three

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Speaker 1: of them heavy, and so the photon escapes and remains

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Speaker 1: massless and the other ones get really really massive, and

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Speaker 1: that is why the weak force is weak. Whoa wait, wait,

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Speaker 1: wait wait, So the photon is part of it, like

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Speaker 1: a family, like there are other versions of the photon. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the Z is very very similar to the photon. It's

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Speaker 1: exactly like the photon, and except that it's part of

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Speaker 1: the weak force and it has more mass. Oh I see,

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Speaker 1: It's like the electromagnetic fource and the weak force are related.

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Speaker 1: But all of the forces, all of the force particles,

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Speaker 1: and the weak force half mass. That's what makes it weak.

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Speaker 1: That's why we call them weak. Yeah, so the photon

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Speaker 1: is just like our name for the one out of

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Speaker 1: the four particles that stayed massless. Whoa, and I guess

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Speaker 1: then the weak force is sort of like light almost

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Speaker 1: like these other particles are also light, but they're like

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Speaker 1: massive lights. Yeah, exactly, they are like heavy light. And

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Speaker 1: the reason that the weak force is weak is that

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Speaker 1: these particles are so massive, so they like they don't

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Speaker 1: go very far before they decay. A photon can travel

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Speaker 1: across the whole universe. It's totally stable. But these particles,

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Speaker 1: because they're massive, they break down into other stuff and

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Speaker 1: that limits the weak forces strength. So like back in

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Speaker 1: the early days of the universe, before the Higgs field

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Speaker 1: broke this symmetry, all these particles were basically equivalent and

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Speaker 1: the weak force was as powerful as electro magnetism. But

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Speaker 1: then the universe cooled and the Higgs field condensed, and

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Speaker 1: it made these particles heavier, and it left the photon massless.

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Speaker 1: And so now the photon is like it's original version.

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Speaker 1: It can go through the whole universe and its infinite extent.

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Speaker 1: Electromagnetism is a very powerful force, and the weak force

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Speaker 1: is like a thin shadow of what it used to be.

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Speaker 1: I'm also a thin shadow what I used to be,

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Speaker 1: and I'm more massive and slower than I was when

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Speaker 1: I was younger. All right, well, let's get into the

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Speaker 1: consequences now of Thomas's question of what happens that the

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Speaker 1: photon had more mass, specifically the mass of the top cork.

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Speaker 1: And I imagine it's not a light consequence. Big things

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Speaker 1: will happen. It's gonna be heavy duty. It's not gonna

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Speaker 1: be weak, it's gonna be mass. All right, we'll get

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Speaker 1: into that, but first let's take a quick break. Al Right,

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Speaker 1: we are considering multiverses, different universes in which the laws

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Speaker 1: of physics worked the same, but maybe the values of things,

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Speaker 1: of particles and certain properties are different. And this came

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Speaker 1: to us from Thomas from Ontario, who is nine years old,

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Speaker 1: and he's curious about, first of all, what happens if

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Speaker 1: the photon had the mass of the top court. It

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Speaker 1: would be a pretty weird universe if that happened. And

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Speaker 1: the weird or you mean weird, although I guess beings

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Speaker 1: that arose that universe would think this is totally natural.

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Speaker 1: How could it be any other way? Yeah? Also, what

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Speaker 1: would the Thomas and that universe be curious. What if

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Speaker 1: the photon were massless? What would happen? Yeah, that would

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Speaker 1: be as strange to them as the counterpartist to us. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: exactly right. So now let's so let's give the photon mass, Daniel,

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Speaker 1: what would happen if we give mass to the photon? So,

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Speaker 1: if you give mass to the photon, for example, you

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Speaker 1: have like a more complicated Higgs boson that has the

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Speaker 1: capacity to make more particles massive, and that's not too

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Speaker 1: much of a stretch, Like supersymmetric versions of the Higgs

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Speaker 1: boson could do this, and we talked about in a

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Speaker 1: recent podcast episode, like how many kinds of Higgs boson

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Speaker 1: are there? So if you have more Higgs bosons, you

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Speaker 1: could give the photon mass. If that happened, then electromagnetism

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Speaker 1: would be much weaker than it is today. Like the

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Speaker 1: relative power between electromagnetism and the weak force is a

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Speaker 1: huge number. It's like more than a factor of a

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Speaker 1: hundred and so if the photon had mass, then electromagnetism

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Speaker 1: would get weakened just like the weak force has. Right,

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Speaker 1: but would it be weaker or just like shorter range

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Speaker 1: do you know what I mean? Like, would it be

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Speaker 1: I still have the same strength, but just I mean

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Speaker 1: not work as well up close or far away when

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Speaker 1: things are far away, or would it actually like decrease

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Speaker 1: in strength. Both the range is shortened by the mass

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Speaker 1: because the particles decay, but also the strength of the

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Speaker 1: particles effectively depends on the mass of them, because like

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Speaker 1: one over the mass of the particles, and so for example,

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Speaker 1: neutrinos don't interact with most of the Earth because the

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Speaker 1: weak force is weak, not because neutrinos don't get like

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Speaker 1: close enough to the nucleus. Even if they fly right

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Speaker 1: through the nucleus of an atom, have a very small

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Speaker 1: chance of interacting because it's like you roll a die

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Speaker 1: every time it happens, and the die for the weak

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Speaker 1: force is just much bigger, and so you very rarely

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Speaker 1: hit the right number? Is it? Because like once things

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Speaker 1: have mass and harder to make, Like it's harder to

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Speaker 1: make photons that they were massive. Yeah, you need more

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Speaker 1: localized energy. It's just less quantum probability to sort of

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Speaker 1: fluctuate that out of the vacuum to create a heavy particle.

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Speaker 1: Heavy particles are just rarer less likely, it's less likely

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Speaker 1: to happen, which means it's a weaker force, right, Yeah,

427
00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:32,400
Speaker 1: I guess there's are masses. They wouldn't be as free,

428
00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:34,679
Speaker 1: like they would cost you more just to shine a light.

429
00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:38,080
Speaker 1: Yeah exactly, all right, and then they have shorter range

430
00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:41,119
Speaker 1: because I guess they're going slower than the photon, and

431
00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:43,119
Speaker 1: so therefore they give them more of a chance for

432
00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:47,240
Speaker 1: them to like decay, right or change. Yeah exactly, because

433
00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:51,040
Speaker 1: remember that heavy things decay into lower mass things, just

434
00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:54,200
Speaker 1: like boulders roll down hills, and our universe energy likes

435
00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:57,960
Speaker 1: to spread out and equalize, so really heavy particles decay

436
00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:01,240
Speaker 1: into lighter particles, and so the photon, you know, it

437
00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:04,159
Speaker 1: is massless though it can't decay into other stuff, but

438
00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:07,639
Speaker 1: if it was heavier than it could decay into lower

439
00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:10,720
Speaker 1: mass particles, it would prefer to. And so if you

440
00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:13,600
Speaker 1: turn it on a flashlight, you couldn't send your photons

441
00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:16,080
Speaker 1: all the way to Alpha Centauri. They would like peter

442
00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:18,440
Speaker 1: out before they got there. Would be like yeah, it'd

443
00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:21,639
Speaker 1: be like like shooting. Now now you're like shooting stuff

444
00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:23,760
Speaker 1: more like a flashlight with way more and you would

445
00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:25,920
Speaker 1: feel more of a recal when you turn it off. Yeah,

446
00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:28,200
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if the momentum would be different. You know,

447
00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:31,800
Speaker 1: a flashlight does impart momentum, Like if you hit somebody

448
00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:34,600
Speaker 1: with a flashlight, you're giving them a very very gentle push.

449
00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:37,360
Speaker 1: It's sort of like shooting them with a very gentle gun.

450
00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:39,240
Speaker 1: And also when you turn on a flashlight, there's a

451
00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:42,520
Speaker 1: very gentle recoil, right Like if you fire a big gun,

452
00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:45,239
Speaker 1: you feel the pushback on your shoulder. The same thing

453
00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:47,320
Speaker 1: is true with a flashlight. You just can't feel it

454
00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:50,160
Speaker 1: because the momentum is so so tiny, but it is true,

455
00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:52,639
Speaker 1: all right. So then what would happen if the electromagnetic

456
00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:55,080
Speaker 1: force was weaker? What kind of what kinds of consequences

457
00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:57,879
Speaker 1: would it have in our universe? Well, electromagnetism is what

458
00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:01,880
Speaker 1: organizes matter into at a right, the electron is captured

459
00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:06,000
Speaker 1: by a proton to make hydrogen, and it's captured by electromagnetism,

460
00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:09,440
Speaker 1: and that happened when the universe was cooling a right,

461
00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:12,520
Speaker 1: Imagine particles are flying around. You have protons and you

462
00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:14,879
Speaker 1: have electrons and they're all flying around. You have a

463
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:17,200
Speaker 1: lot of energy because the universe is young and it's

464
00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:20,040
Speaker 1: hot and everything is zooming around. So we have a plasma.

465
00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:23,680
Speaker 1: Now the universe then expands and everything cools down and

466
00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:27,280
Speaker 1: sort of slows down, and eventually things cool down so

467
00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:31,520
Speaker 1: much that the proton, the electron, their electromagnetic force attracts

468
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:35,000
Speaker 1: each other. They're not too fast to get captured, so

469
00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:38,320
Speaker 1: they fall into these atoms. That that depends on the

470
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:42,479
Speaker 1: strength of the electromagnetic force. So if electromagnetism is now

471
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:45,960
Speaker 1: weaker because photons are more massive, that just doesn't happen.

472
00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:49,480
Speaker 1: At the same time, the universe forms atoms much much

473
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:52,640
Speaker 1: later in its history because it has to wait until

474
00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:55,760
Speaker 1: everything is so slow and so cold. So even this

475
00:23:56,119 --> 00:24:01,080
Speaker 1: weekend electromagnetism could capture the electron inform atoms. So the

476
00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:04,200
Speaker 1: whole history of the universe would be different, Like would

477
00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:06,800
Speaker 1: we still be in a plasma right now or would

478
00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:09,159
Speaker 1: we have settled already. I don't think any of the

479
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:12,879
Speaker 1: elements we know now would be around. Like the version

480
00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:15,320
Speaker 1: of hydrogen in that universe would be really different. It

481
00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:17,920
Speaker 1: would have totally different energy levels. And you know, the

482
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:21,920
Speaker 1: very nature of the universe we experience depends on chemistry,

483
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:26,439
Speaker 1: which depends very very sensitively on how electron orbitals are

484
00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:30,200
Speaker 1: structured around nuclei. You know, whether something is metallic or not,

485
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:33,240
Speaker 1: whether something is active or not, whether you know something

486
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:37,040
Speaker 1: conducts the electricity or not, depends entirely on those electron orbitals,

487
00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 1: and now we're totally changing those. So I think we

488
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:43,480
Speaker 1: should expect to have completely different chemistry, which means basically

489
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:46,200
Speaker 1: everything would be different. I don't even know if we

490
00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:48,960
Speaker 1: would have stars in the same way. I don't know

491
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:50,720
Speaker 1: that we would have planets. I don't know that we

492
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:54,280
Speaker 1: would have the same sort of set of materials. Yeah,

493
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:56,760
Speaker 1: it would be a totally different universe because I guess

494
00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:59,920
Speaker 1: you know, an electron in and atom is throwing full

495
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:02,040
Speaker 1: tons back and forth with the nucleus, right, That's how

496
00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:04,399
Speaker 1: it stays in orbit, So the photon had ass it

497
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:07,240
Speaker 1: would be like a totally different relationship there, right, Yeah,

498
00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:10,439
Speaker 1: And we don't know if chemical bonds could be formed,

499
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:13,600
Speaker 1: Like the way that to oxygen come together to make

500
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:17,320
Speaker 1: O two is that they are like sharing electrons between

501
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,760
Speaker 1: two nuclei, and that depends on the strength of electromagnetism.

502
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:24,480
Speaker 1: It might be that in Thomas's universe, with really really

503
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:27,840
Speaker 1: massive photon than a weakened electromagnetism, you can get a

504
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:30,600
Speaker 1: different kind of bond. It might also be that you

505
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:32,960
Speaker 1: just can't get bonds right that you all you have

506
00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:37,040
Speaker 1: our individual atoms and no molecules, which completely changes the

507
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:39,080
Speaker 1: way all of chemistry works. Yeah. I kind of need

508
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:43,240
Speaker 1: those molecules just to get up in the morning. Yeah,

509
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:45,000
Speaker 1: and you're telling me it also it also has sort

510
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:48,520
Speaker 1: of more fundamental consequences, right, Like it actually affects kind

511
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:51,920
Speaker 1: of like the overall electrical charge of the universe. Yeah,

512
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:55,399
Speaker 1: it's really interesting that the photon was left massless because

513
00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:58,800
Speaker 1: that means that its symmetry wasn't broken. We talked on

514
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 1: the podcast a lot about how all conservation laws things

515
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 1: that are like preserved in the universe, Like if you

516
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:08,040
Speaker 1: do an interaction and nothing changes, that's the conservation law.

517
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:11,960
Speaker 1: We talked about how those conservation laws all come from symmetries. So,

518
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:15,600
Speaker 1: for example, the fact that momentum is conserved, you know

519
00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:18,320
Speaker 1: that if you collide to particles together, the same amount

520
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:21,359
Speaker 1: of momentum exists after as it did before, comes from

521
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,920
Speaker 1: a symmetry of the universe. That symmetry is translational symmetry.

522
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:27,040
Speaker 1: That it doesn't matter if you did that collision over

523
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:30,399
Speaker 1: here or ten miles to the right. The universe doesn't

524
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:33,240
Speaker 1: have a preferred location in space. Well, there's a symmetry

525
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:36,920
Speaker 1: of the photon. It's called electromagnetic gauge symmetry, and the

526
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:40,920
Speaker 1: consequence of that is that electric charge is conserved, and

527
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 1: that gauge symmetry can only exist if the photon is massless.

528
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 1: So the photon becomes massive, then electromagnetic symmetry is broken,

529
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:52,040
Speaker 1: which means electric charge is no longer conserved, which means

530
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 1: you can do things like create charges out of nothing.

531
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 1: You can destroy electric charges, which is not something that

532
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,520
Speaker 1: happens in our universe currently, right, And that could be

533
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:03,720
Speaker 1: weird because like maybe suddenly most of the universe is

534
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 1: has a plus charge on it or has a negative charge. Right,

535
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:09,440
Speaker 1: there's nothing kind of controlling that anymore. Yeah, exactly, it

536
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:11,240
Speaker 1: could go up and down, It could change with time.

537
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:13,920
Speaker 1: It could all get super positively charged. You know. You

538
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 1: could have photons turned into two electrons. Currently, a photon

539
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 1: can turn into like an electron and its anti particle,

540
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:24,160
Speaker 1: and there's a symmetry there because of conservation of charge.

541
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:25,600
Speaker 1: You have to create a plus and a minus at

542
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 1: the same time. But if that's no longer true, then

543
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:31,639
Speaker 1: photons could turn into like two electrons or two positrons

544
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:33,680
Speaker 1: are all sorts of crazy stuff. And when you change

545
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 1: these fundamental rules, the very very foundations of everything, then

546
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 1: it's pretty hard to predict what things are going to

547
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 1: look like at the larger scales. I guess you could

548
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:44,119
Speaker 1: say there are plusants and minus or there could be

549
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:46,040
Speaker 1: a lot of plusses and a lot of minuses. The

550
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 1: pluses and minuses are going to be out of control. Yeah,

551
00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:52,720
Speaker 1: all right, that's pretty deep. And then also it has

552
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:56,560
Speaker 1: some consequences for super conductivity, right yeah. I think something

553
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 1: that people don't really realize is that particle physicists didn't

554
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 1: invent the idea of a Higgs field like. It didn't

555
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 1: actually come from particle physics. We borrowed it from another field.

556
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:12,200
Speaker 1: We borrowed it from the guys who study superconductivity. Because

557
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 1: what happens in a material when things are super conductive

558
00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:18,639
Speaker 1: is that the electrons do this very special thing. You know,

559
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:21,080
Speaker 1: Electrons don't like to be like on top of each

560
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 1: other their fermions, they don't like to be in the

561
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:26,359
Speaker 1: same quantum state. So to get superconductivity, what happens is

562
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 1: you get electrons forming these little pairs two electrons together

563
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:32,960
Speaker 1: because when they come together, they turn into bosons and

564
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:35,399
Speaker 1: they can do all sorts of crazy stuff they can't

565
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 1: otherwise do, and that's how super conductivity works. Well, these

566
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 1: bosons do weird things to the photons that are in

567
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 1: that material, and what they do to the photon in

568
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:47,880
Speaker 1: that material is exactly the same thing that the Higgs

569
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:51,360
Speaker 1: field does to most particles. So what that means is

570
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 1: that inside a superconductor, photons are massive, like photons have

571
00:28:56,160 --> 00:29:00,920
Speaker 1: mass inside superconductors, because these electrons create the same conditions

572
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 1: necessary to give a photon mass. Right, they sort of

573
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 1: like act like they slow down photons, right, they like

574
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:08,760
Speaker 1: absorb and re emit them, and in a way it

575
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 1: sort of acts like the molasses in their material, not

576
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 1: in a way in exactly the same way. And so

577
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 1: when we discovered the Higgs boson, it was also sort

578
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 1: of like a triumph for condensed matter physics because we

579
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:22,720
Speaker 1: realized this is like a general idea. It doesn't just

580
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 1: happen for fundamental particles in the Higgs field. It also

581
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 1: happens to like emergent phenomena for like photons interacting with

582
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:33,240
Speaker 1: these cooper pairs inside super conductivity. So there are cases

583
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 1: in our universe where photons do have mass inside a superconductor.

584
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 1: Photons have mass, So then what would happen if you

585
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 1: actually give them mass? With that whole super connectivity is

586
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:46,040
Speaker 1: still work. Yeah, that's a great question. It would totally

587
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:48,440
Speaker 1: upset that apple cart as well. Probably you can still

588
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:50,479
Speaker 1: make super connectivity work. Do you have to start from

589
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:53,240
Speaker 1: a completely different place? I mean everybody else would have

590
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:57,240
Speaker 1: to start all over. Biologists, chemists, everybody would have to

591
00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:00,280
Speaker 1: start from scratch if we change this basic parameter. And

592
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,800
Speaker 1: also light would be slower to right, like, maybe the

593
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 1: universe would feel smaller as well. Yeah, and we might

594
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 1: not even see as much of the universe. If photons

595
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:12,960
Speaker 1: don't last forever, they're not stable, if they decay, then

596
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:15,440
Speaker 1: we can't rely on them to travel for billions and

597
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 1: billions of years across the universe and bring us secrets

598
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 1: from the most distant objects because they would turn into

599
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 1: other particles on the way. So the night sky would

600
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:26,960
Speaker 1: be much much darker because we wouldn't be getting these

601
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 1: messages from far away. So I kind of like our universe.

602
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:31,720
Speaker 1: I don't know, what do you think? Yeah, let's keep

603
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 1: the photon in a diet. Let's not getting pot any

604
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 1: mass I think the lesson is things would be very

605
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,480
Speaker 1: different Thomas. But yeah, so the universe would be very

606
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 1: different than the photon had mass, right, it would have

607
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 1: much weaker like promgnatic force, and and things just wouldn't

608
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:46,720
Speaker 1: be the same. We might not even be in a

609
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:48,880
Speaker 1: like here in universe. Who might be still in the

610
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:51,720
Speaker 1: plasma universe. And the crazy thing is that it's not

611
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 1: that far from our universe, Like it could happened here

612
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:57,719
Speaker 1: if the Higgs field was more complicated, if there are

613
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:00,960
Speaker 1: supersymmetric Higgs out there, it's possible this could have happened.

614
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:04,040
Speaker 1: And so it's not a big jump from here to there,

615
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:06,920
Speaker 1: Like the universe looks totally different, but it doesn't take

616
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:09,400
Speaker 1: that much of a change in the underlying laws of

617
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:11,960
Speaker 1: physics to get from here there. So it's sort of like,

618
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 1: you know, our neighboring universe in the multiverse. Well, hopefully

619
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 1: the n s A edited out that last statement in

620
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:20,840
Speaker 1: case that encourages anyone to try to change our universe.

621
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 1: All right, Well, let's get to thomas the second question,

622
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:26,360
Speaker 1: because he had three, and this one is pretty interesting

623
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,440
Speaker 1: as well. Kudos to Thomas for thinking it up. Yes,

624
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:34,040
Speaker 1: what if the netrino felt the Strong Force. Yeah, whoa Wow,

625
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 1: I guess it's whoa Because first of all, the neutrino

626
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 1: is kind of an exotic particle, or I guess it's

627
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 1: not your your typical particle. It doesn't make up anything

628
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 1: about what we are. And also the strong Force is

629
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:48,400
Speaker 1: kind of a special force, right, So yes, So you're

630
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:51,920
Speaker 1: taking like the most elusive particle that hardly interacts with

631
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:55,200
Speaker 1: anything and interacts most weekly when it does, and then

632
00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:58,560
Speaker 1: you're throwing it into the mix with the most powerful,

633
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:01,840
Speaker 1: the strongest, the we weird ist force we know about

634
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 1: in the universe. So you're like promoting the introvert that

635
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:07,840
Speaker 1: hardly ever interacts with the party. You put them up

636
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 1: on stage and you're making them the center of the action.

637
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:13,160
Speaker 1: I feel like you're describing a recurring dream that you

638
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 1: have to and then I wake up screaming, and then

639
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 1: you burst into a ball of light massless photons. I hope. Yeah.

640
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:26,240
Speaker 1: So remember that the new trino is. It's weird little particle,

641
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 1: And you're right, it's weird because it doesn't exist in

642
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,000
Speaker 1: our form of matter. Like, you don't need the neutrino

643
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:35,280
Speaker 1: to make up the atom. You just need electrons and corks.

644
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 1: But there are lots of neutrinos out there in the universe.

645
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 1: The Sun makes a huge number of them. There are

646
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 1: natural product of fusion. So there's like billions of neutrinos

647
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 1: passing through your fingernail every second. They're just not sort

648
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:51,960
Speaker 1: of like part of our tactile universe. They're like this

649
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 1: parallel universe almost that's right on top of us. So

650
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:56,480
Speaker 1: I think this question sort of gets to, like, what

651
00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 1: if we can interact with more of the universe. What

652
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:01,360
Speaker 1: if we were like force to what if it became

653
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 1: part of the structure of the stuff that we are

654
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 1: made out of? Right, Because neutrinos are you know, they're

655
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:09,239
Speaker 1: elusive and they're not that famous, but there's a lot

656
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:12,040
Speaker 1: of them, Like through all my fingertips right now. Are

657
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 1: are billions of neutrinos passing through right, Yeah, because the

658
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:18,720
Speaker 1: Sun is a huge neutrino factory. Yeah. So they're one

659
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 1: of the particles that can be made, and so they

660
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 1: are made in big reactions like in the Sun. But

661
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 1: right now they don't feel any force except the weak force, right,

662
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:29,200
Speaker 1: that's right. They have no electric charge and we'll get

663
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:32,640
Speaker 1: into that later. That's his third question. They don't feel electromagnetism,

664
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:35,080
Speaker 1: and they have a very very very small mass, so

665
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 1: they do feel gravity, but it's almost negligible. But most

666
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:41,480
Speaker 1: importantly for this discussion, they don't feel the strong nuclear force.

667
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 1: This is the force that holds the nucleus together, you know,

668
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 1: that's mediated by gluons. It's what makes corks come together

669
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 1: into a proton or into a neutron, and then even

670
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 1: enough residual strong force left over to pull those positively

671
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:58,680
Speaker 1: charged protons together into a nucleus. So the strong force

672
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 1: is really what dictates the whole structure of the nucleus,

673
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:05,280
Speaker 1: which is what controls everything. So usually only courts feel

674
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:08,080
Speaker 1: the strong force. Right, Yeah, we have this weird division,

675
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 1: like there are six corks up down charm strange top bottom,

676
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 1: and then there are six particles we call leptons. There's

677
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:18,200
Speaker 1: electron mu on too, and the three neutrinos. For reasons

678
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:21,279
Speaker 1: we don't understand, only the corks feel the strong force,

679
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:24,080
Speaker 1: and none of the other ones. The electron, the mu on,

680
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:26,480
Speaker 1: the tow and the neutrinos, none of them feel a

681
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:28,600
Speaker 1: strong force. They just totally ignore it. All right, So

682
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 1: then what would happen if one of the neutrinos or

683
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:34,359
Speaker 1: that nutrino felt the strong force, how would it break things. Yeah,

684
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 1: so in order for that to happen, you'd have to

685
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:40,360
Speaker 1: give these neutrinos the equivalent of electric charge for the

686
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:43,719
Speaker 1: strong force, and we call that color. So that's sort

687
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:45,920
Speaker 1: of what it means to have a color charge. It

688
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:48,600
Speaker 1: means that you do feel the strong force. And so

689
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:51,520
Speaker 1: if neutrinos feel the strong force, then they no longer

690
00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:54,800
Speaker 1: just like pass through material. Like we say the neutrinos

691
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:57,320
Speaker 1: passed through the Earth without hardly noticing, that would no

692
00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:00,040
Speaker 1: longer be true. If they felt the strong force, it

693
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:02,719
Speaker 1: would smash into the nucleus and they would interact. It

694
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 1: would be just like if you sent a proton into

695
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:08,279
Speaker 1: the nucleus, Like when that happens, it sometimes breaks the

696
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 1: nucleus up right, So they would feel the strong force,

697
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:13,239
Speaker 1: so they would have a color charge. And so if

698
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:15,920
Speaker 1: you shoot them through a material, they would probably mostly

699
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:17,960
Speaker 1: not do anything right, they would just fly through. But

700
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:20,120
Speaker 1: if they happen to fly close to the nucleus, then

701
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:22,720
Speaker 1: they would interact with the courts inside of the nucleus.

702
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:25,280
Speaker 1: Is that what you're saying, Yeah, that's true, but materials

703
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:27,480
Speaker 1: are pretty dense, and so for example, if you shoot

704
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:31,359
Speaker 1: a proton into a block of copper, you're very likely

705
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:33,279
Speaker 1: going to interact with something, unless it's a very very

706
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:36,120
Speaker 1: thin sheet. And you know, we measure these things. It's

707
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:38,839
Speaker 1: like you know the interaction length of an object as

708
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:41,600
Speaker 1: it flies into material. You fly into anything with their

709
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:45,160
Speaker 1: reasonable nuclear density, you're going to interact. And so as

710
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:47,960
Speaker 1: you shoot neutrinos with a strong force into a rock,

711
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:50,000
Speaker 1: for example, then they're not going to come out the

712
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:52,719
Speaker 1: other side. It's because there are so many nuclear and

713
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:55,200
Speaker 1: courts in that rock. But I guess what I'm saying

714
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:57,680
Speaker 1: is that the strong force this in like long range, right,

715
00:35:57,760 --> 00:35:59,919
Speaker 1: like it usually only kicks up if you're really close

716
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:02,400
Speaker 1: through the courts. That's right, because the strong force is

717
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:06,680
Speaker 1: super duper strong, and it's super duper strange. It's strange because,

718
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:10,880
Speaker 1: unlike the other forces, it actually gets stronger as the

719
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:14,200
Speaker 1: objects get further apart. Like we know that gravity gets

720
00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:17,319
Speaker 1: weaker as things get further apart. You feel gravity from

721
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:19,759
Speaker 1: the Sun, you feel gravity from the Earth because they're

722
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:23,040
Speaker 1: relatively close. You don't feel gravity from Andromeda the whole

723
00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:26,240
Speaker 1: galaxy because it's super far away. Even though it's really massive.

724
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:29,200
Speaker 1: The strong force is the opposite. As things get further apart,

725
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:32,520
Speaker 1: the strength of the force gets larger. What that means

726
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:35,439
Speaker 1: is that things with a strong chart this color can't

727
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 1: be really really far apart because the forces we would

728
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:41,000
Speaker 1: be so strong that things would snap together. So basically

729
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:44,759
Speaker 1: everything in the universe is balanced, has no effective color

730
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:47,280
Speaker 1: chart because if it did, then like a huge amount

731
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:50,200
Speaker 1: of energy would be devoted to fixing that, to sort

732
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:53,200
Speaker 1: of smoothing it out. And so the strong force also

733
00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:55,279
Speaker 1: has sort of a short extent because it's all sort

734
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:58,400
Speaker 1: of neutralized already, right, So then what would happen to

735
00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:01,040
Speaker 1: our universe if neutrinos has you know, color, and they

736
00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:03,600
Speaker 1: could feel the strong force? Would we just be obliterated

737
00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 1: right now by all the neutrinos coming from the Sun,

738
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 1: you know, like what they just totally destroy us? Or

739
00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 1: you know, would would even that meaning neutrinos be formed

740
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:15,640
Speaker 1: in the sun, It's a great question. Neutrinos are mostly

741
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:18,320
Speaker 1: formed in the internal part of the Sun, right like

742
00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:22,399
Speaker 1: where the fusion is actually happening. And so if neutrinos

743
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:25,359
Speaker 1: have felt the strong force and they hit Earth, yeah,

744
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:26,840
Speaker 1: that would be a big deal, and it would like

745
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 1: sterilize all life on Earth and kill everybody. Not a

746
00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:33,879
Speaker 1: happy ending and not a happy ending. But it also

747
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:37,479
Speaker 1: means that the Sun wouldn't make as many neutrinos because

748
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 1: the neutrinos wouldn't be able to escape the Sun because

749
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:43,239
Speaker 1: instead of like being created and then flying off through

750
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:46,439
Speaker 1: a sun, which is to them transparent, the Sun would

751
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:48,920
Speaker 1: be suddenly opaque. It would be a huge barrier. So

752
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:51,400
Speaker 1: they would just be like reabsorbed, or they would trigger

753
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:55,800
Speaker 1: more nuclear fusion, or they would form balanced crazy states.

754
00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:59,799
Speaker 1: And so probably the Sun just wouldn't produce as many neutrinos.

755
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:02,200
Speaker 1: It would still have all that energy, and it would

756
00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:05,040
Speaker 1: get hotter, and it might really more photons because it

757
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 1: gets hotter, but it wouldn't produce as many neutrinos, but

758
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:10,319
Speaker 1: it would still produce some. And when those neutrinos hit

759
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:13,279
Speaker 1: the Earth, it would be bad news. Right, we would

760
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:16,240
Speaker 1: in our atmosphere protect this. Maybe our atmosphere does protect

761
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:19,439
Speaker 1: us from cosmic rays. Like there are particles that feel

762
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:22,480
Speaker 1: the strong force effectively that hit the atmosphere, like protons.

763
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:25,680
Speaker 1: Sometimes they're really high energy, but you know, you can't

764
00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:27,920
Speaker 1: really evade them. What happens when they hit the atmosphere

765
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 1: is they create this big shower of particles cosmic rays,

766
00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:34,560
Speaker 1: and those cosmic rays get down to Earth and they cause, like,

767
00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:37,680
Speaker 1: you know, changes in our DNA. It's actually important part

768
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 1: of our evolution that sometimes errors in DNA are created

769
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:45,000
Speaker 1: from cosmic radiation. And so what you're talking about is

770
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:48,239
Speaker 1: increasing the amount of cosmic radiation doesn't mean we'll all

771
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:50,640
Speaker 1: instantly get cancer, but it does mean that there'll be

772
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:53,640
Speaker 1: a lot more DNA errors, and that means that you know,

773
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:57,080
Speaker 1: the next generation would be pretty weird or has superpower.

774
00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:00,960
Speaker 1: This could be a great origin story. Everyone bitten by

775
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:04,360
Speaker 1: a radioactive neutrino. Yeah, you get all the powers of

776
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:06,360
Speaker 1: the neutrino. All right, Well, it sounds like maybe the

777
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:10,160
Speaker 1: consequences are not as dramatic as in our first question.

778
00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:13,279
Speaker 1: But because you know, neutrinos are more dangerous, but they're

779
00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 1: also maybe wouldn't we wouldn't see as many of them, right,

780
00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:17,880
Speaker 1: because they're harder to make, and they would also do

781
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:21,360
Speaker 1: other weird stuff. Like the reason we have protons and

782
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:24,480
Speaker 1: neutrons and other particles made of quarks is because those

783
00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:26,840
Speaker 1: quirks like to group together and make interesting things. And

784
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 1: there's lots of different ways to put quirks together. You

785
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:31,960
Speaker 1: can make pions and chaons. These are all just different

786
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:35,080
Speaker 1: combinations of the same lego particles. Now in that universe

787
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:37,799
Speaker 1: and Thomas's universe where the neutrino feels a strong force,

788
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:40,399
Speaker 1: it's another lego piece you can use to make these

789
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:42,880
Speaker 1: weird particles. So now you can have like I don't know,

790
00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:46,120
Speaker 1: two quirks and a new trino making some new kind

791
00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:48,479
Speaker 1: of particle, or just like you know, a bound state

792
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:50,839
Speaker 1: of a bunch of neutrinos could build something. You can

793
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:53,799
Speaker 1: have all sorts of new forms of matter made out

794
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:57,360
Speaker 1: of either combinations of quirks and neutrinos or just neutrinos. Whoa,

795
00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:00,440
Speaker 1: you could have like more atoms than what we have

796
00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:02,160
Speaker 1: in the periodic table. You could have like a whole

797
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:05,000
Speaker 1: separate table or more multiple table. You would be a

798
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:08,160
Speaker 1: whole other dimension to the periodic table, you know, where

799
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:11,400
Speaker 1: you have a hydrogen with more or fewer neutrinos inside

800
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:14,839
Speaker 1: the nucleus. Wow, that's pretty cool. It's like getting more

801
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:18,279
Speaker 1: pieces for your lego said of the universe. So things

802
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:20,680
Speaker 1: would maybe be very different, right, there would be more

803
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:23,560
Speaker 1: types of matter. Yeah, exactly, it would be much more

804
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:25,920
Speaker 1: diverse the kinds of things you could build out of

805
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:28,120
Speaker 1: the strong force. All right, well, hopefully that answer is

806
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:30,400
Speaker 1: Thomas the second question, and so let's get to his

807
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:35,000
Speaker 1: last question, and this one is pretty killer, but first

808
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:50,440
Speaker 1: let's take another quick break. All Right, we're answering questions

809
00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:53,359
Speaker 1: from Thomas, who's nine years old from Ontario. Please read

810
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:55,360
Speaker 1: our book We Have No Idea, a Guide to the

811
00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:59,160
Speaker 1: un Universe. And he has questions about what if the

812
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:02,759
Speaker 1: universe was different, what if we were actually in a

813
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:07,400
Speaker 1: different universe in our multiverse where things had different values

814
00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:11,680
Speaker 1: or things at different properties. And so his last question

815
00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:16,560
Speaker 1: is what if the neutrino felt the electromagnetic force? Yeah,

816
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:19,680
Speaker 1: and I love this series of questions because it connects

817
00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:23,720
Speaker 1: to this like series of inclusion, Like the strong force

818
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:28,120
Speaker 1: only touches quarks. That's interesting, it's weird. We don't understand why.

819
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:32,040
Speaker 1: Then there's electromagnetism. It touches quarks like quarks have charges,

820
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:35,000
Speaker 1: they can create photons, all this kind of stuff. But

821
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:39,400
Speaker 1: also electrons, muans, and taws feel electromagnetism. So of the

822
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:42,239
Speaker 1: twelve particles, only six of them feel the strong force.

823
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:46,600
Speaker 1: Electromagnetism is more inclusive, Like nine of those twelve particles

824
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:50,480
Speaker 1: feel electromagnetism, but then the last three particles, these neutrinos, right,

825
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:53,759
Speaker 1: they don't feel either the strong force or electromagnetism. So

826
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:55,600
Speaker 1: it's really fun to think about, like what the universe

827
00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:58,319
Speaker 1: would be like if that were different. These neutrinos are

828
00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:00,880
Speaker 1: special and crazy because they don't feel either of the

829
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:03,440
Speaker 1: more powerful forces. Yeah, I mean these are definitely not

830
00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 1: random questions. I feel like Thomas really sort of looked

831
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:08,680
Speaker 1: at the table of fundamental particles and he saw the

832
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:11,120
Speaker 1: gaps and like, what wasn't connected? And he's liked, what

833
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:13,160
Speaker 1: if we connect these two things? Yeah, And I think

834
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:15,480
Speaker 1: the other side of these questions is not just what if,

835
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:19,520
Speaker 1: but why, right, because the implication is maybe this doesn't

836
00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:22,040
Speaker 1: make sense, maybe it doesn't work, and that's why the

837
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:25,359
Speaker 1: neutrino doesn't feel a strong force, it doesn't feel electromacticism,

838
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:28,240
Speaker 1: because if it did, the universe would be incoherent or something,

839
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:30,239
Speaker 1: you know. I think that's sort of the way we

840
00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:32,160
Speaker 1: are all thinking about is sort of in the field,

841
00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:34,640
Speaker 1: trying to ask these what if questions? All right, Well,

842
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:37,000
Speaker 1: his whatef question is what if the neutrino felt the

843
00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:39,760
Speaker 1: electromagnetic force. So right now, we know that the neutrino

844
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:42,279
Speaker 1: doesn't feel the electromagnetic force, which is why it like

845
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:44,560
Speaker 1: flies through us and doesn't kill us and doesn't do

846
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:46,160
Speaker 1: anything to us even though there are a ton of

847
00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:48,520
Speaker 1: them flying through us. So I guess if they felt

848
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:51,239
Speaker 1: the electromagnetic force and we would feel them to right,

849
00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:54,960
Speaker 1: we might even be toast. We would definitely be toast exactly.

850
00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:58,000
Speaker 1: It's very similar to what would happen if neutrinos felt

851
00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:01,040
Speaker 1: a strong force. Right right now, Neutrinos mostly ignore the universe,

852
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:03,560
Speaker 1: but the universe is built out of the strong force

853
00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:08,200
Speaker 1: and electromagnetism. So now, if a neutrinos feel electromagnetism, that

854
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:10,960
Speaker 1: means that when they pass through matter, they interact with

855
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:14,560
Speaker 1: everything that has an electric charge. Right, That's what it means.

856
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:17,920
Speaker 1: To feel electromagnetism means to have a charge and to

857
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:20,759
Speaker 1: interact with things that do have charge. That's really what

858
00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:23,480
Speaker 1: electric charge is. When we say, like the electron has

859
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:26,480
Speaker 1: electric charge, what we mean is that when you put

860
00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:29,440
Speaker 1: it in an electric field, it gets accelerated, so that

861
00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:33,440
Speaker 1: has zero charge. We mean it ignores electromagnetism. For a

862
00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:36,520
Speaker 1: neutrino to feel electromagnetism, it would have to have electric

863
00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:38,840
Speaker 1: charge to it that have to be like a positive

864
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:41,720
Speaker 1: neutrino and a negative neutrino. And then as it flies

865
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:44,800
Speaker 1: through matter, it would interact with electrons and the nuclei

866
00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:48,000
Speaker 1: and do exactly the same stuff that other charge particles do.

867
00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:50,880
Speaker 1: It would cause crazy havoc, right, Yeah, I guess you

868
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:53,359
Speaker 1: would have to make two kinds of neutrinos, right, if

869
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:54,920
Speaker 1: you give them charge, you'd have to give them You

870
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:57,080
Speaker 1: have to make up the plus and the minus type. Yeah,

871
00:43:57,120 --> 00:43:59,680
Speaker 1: because every particle that has a plus also has a minus.

872
00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:02,560
Speaker 1: There's the antiparticle. One of the really interesting things about

873
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:05,480
Speaker 1: the neutrino is that we don't know if it is

874
00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:09,840
Speaker 1: its own antiparticle or if there's a separate anti neutrino. Like,

875
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:13,279
Speaker 1: we can't tell the difference between neutrinos and anti neutrinos

876
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:17,680
Speaker 1: because they don't have electric charge. Most particle antiparticle pairs,

877
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:19,680
Speaker 1: like the one of them is positive, one of them

878
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:21,800
Speaker 1: is negative, So we put them in a magnet. They separate.

879
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:25,399
Speaker 1: Neutrinos have no charge, and so we can't tell are

880
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:28,440
Speaker 1: they their own antiparticles there's just one kind or are

881
00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 1: there two kinds? And we just sort of can't tell

882
00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:34,040
Speaker 1: the difference. It's one of the deepest questions about neutrinos.

883
00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:36,200
Speaker 1: But if they had electric charge, they would definitely have

884
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:38,200
Speaker 1: to be two kinds. And in fact, I think their

885
00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:40,680
Speaker 1: name comes from the fact that they don't have any charge, right,

886
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:44,239
Speaker 1: neutral neutrino comes from the word neutral. Right, so you've

887
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:47,400
Speaker 1: given charge. You would have to change its name, Yeah, exactly.

888
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:51,280
Speaker 1: No trino means little one in Italian, right, little neutral

889
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:53,880
Speaker 1: one in Italian, sort of like a little cute particle

890
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:55,880
Speaker 1: with no charge. You would have to call the positive

891
00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:58,320
Speaker 1: one like the pepito, and maybe the negative one the

892
00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:03,320
Speaker 1: nepedo may Yeah exactly, that would be the most important

893
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:09,080
Speaker 1: consequence in the universe. Again, but I guess what I

894
00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:11,880
Speaker 1: mean is that they wouldn't be called to Trina's right, absolutely,

895
00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:15,719
Speaker 1: their most fundamental property would be different. And neutrinos were

896
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:18,080
Speaker 1: hard to discover. We didn't even know about them until

897
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:21,080
Speaker 1: fairly recently. And the reason is that they are neutral.

898
00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:24,040
Speaker 1: They hardly ever interact. We only know the neutrino exists

899
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:26,399
Speaker 1: because we saw a momentum sort of disappear and without

900
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:29,839
Speaker 1: wait a second, momentum can't disappear. And so somebody said, well,

901
00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:33,040
Speaker 1: maybe it didn't disappear, maybe some weird and almost invisible

902
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:36,040
Speaker 1: particles carrying it off, and that's how the name came about.

903
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:37,560
Speaker 1: Somebody said, oh, that would be fun. But if there

904
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:40,360
Speaker 1: was a little neutral particle carrying it off, so we

905
00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:43,440
Speaker 1: would have discovered the neutrino much much sooner. If it

906
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:46,359
Speaker 1: did have electric charge, it would have been much more obvious, right,

907
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:48,680
Speaker 1: all right, So then if it's not neutral, if it

908
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:51,560
Speaker 1: does feel the electromagnetic force, it would interact with us,

909
00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:53,479
Speaker 1: and so we would be toast right because we're getting

910
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:56,600
Speaker 1: showered by them right now, a ton like ten billion

911
00:45:56,680 --> 00:45:59,319
Speaker 1: per square centimeter, and so each one of those would

912
00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:01,719
Speaker 1: basically you know, push us, or interact with us, or

913
00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:05,040
Speaker 1: knock an electron off or you know, maybe change our DNA.

914
00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:07,440
Speaker 1: We'd be toast right to be a ton of energy

915
00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:10,040
Speaker 1: showering us right now. Yeah, we basically all be in

916
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:13,920
Speaker 1: a particle accelerator all the time, and that's not recommended,

917
00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:16,600
Speaker 1: you know, like to have all those particles ripping through

918
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:21,280
Speaker 1: your body, ionizing things, basically causing cancer, damaging your cells.

919
00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:24,680
Speaker 1: It's like being shot by billions of tiny, tiny bullets

920
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:27,560
Speaker 1: all the time. So yeah, we wouldn't survive very long.

921
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:30,000
Speaker 1: But again, just like in the case with the neutrinos

922
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:32,560
Speaker 1: feeling the strong force, fewer of them would come to

923
00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:35,440
Speaker 1: Earth than now, because the Sun would also absorb a

924
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:38,360
Speaker 1: lot of them internally, and so it would radiate more photons.

925
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:40,560
Speaker 1: The Sun would be brighter, it would heat up, and

926
00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:43,160
Speaker 1: we'd all get like hotter from the temperature of the Sun,

927
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:46,160
Speaker 1: but would feel fewer neutrinos, but still a lot of them,

928
00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:48,680
Speaker 1: and those would cause damage. Right, This is interesting that

929
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:51,440
Speaker 1: you said that the sun would be brighter like it

930
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:54,080
Speaker 1: would make the same amount of neutrinos. Wouldn't the neutrinos

931
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:55,799
Speaker 1: be harder to make? And if you make them, then

932
00:46:56,120 --> 00:46:57,759
Speaker 1: how does it make the sun brighter? Yeah, that's a

933
00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:00,200
Speaker 1: great question. I haven't thought about whether fusion is more

934
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:03,120
Speaker 1: or less likely to make more neutrinos. But assuming that

935
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:05,880
Speaker 1: the same number of neutrinos are made, they don't escape

936
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:08,719
Speaker 1: the sun right now. The sun again is opaque to them.

937
00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:12,000
Speaker 1: It's a barrier. It's not transparent. You know, Neutrinos are

938
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:13,960
Speaker 1: super cool because when you make them inside a star.

939
00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:16,880
Speaker 1: That star is like glass to the neutrinos, they just

940
00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:19,840
Speaker 1: fly right out of it. It's super interesting. For example,

941
00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:22,560
Speaker 1: when we observe supernova in the sky, we see neutrinos

942
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:25,960
Speaker 1: from the supernova before we see photons from the supernova.

943
00:47:26,239 --> 00:47:28,040
Speaker 1: And you might think a whole lot of second. Photons

944
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:30,279
Speaker 1: travel the speed of light, right, shouldn't they always get

945
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:34,000
Speaker 1: here first? Yes, But neutrinos come from the heart of

946
00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:36,920
Speaker 1: the supernova, so they're the first thing that's created, and

947
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:39,719
Speaker 1: the photons come when the shock wave reaches the outside

948
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:42,600
Speaker 1: of the supernova. So neutrinos actually get here first because

949
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:45,680
Speaker 1: they started first, and they travel almost the speed of light.

950
00:47:45,719 --> 00:47:48,040
Speaker 1: It's like the trailer for the main feature. Yeah, exactly,

951
00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:52,279
Speaker 1: were like, watch out, you're about to be zapped. Well,

952
00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:54,680
Speaker 1: if they had charged, they would zappas the trailer would

953
00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:56,440
Speaker 1: be just as good as the Yeah, So if they

954
00:47:56,520 --> 00:47:58,359
Speaker 1: had charged, they wouldn't be able to escape in those

955
00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:01,000
Speaker 1: first moments. They would be reabsorbed. All the other particles

956
00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:04,239
Speaker 1: just contributing to the overall temperature of the Sun. That

957
00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:07,040
Speaker 1: would cause the sun to glow brighter if it's hotter,

958
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:09,239
Speaker 1: so would heat up the sun and the sun will

959
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:11,360
Speaker 1: also be shorter lived, right, it wouldn't last for so

960
00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:14,480
Speaker 1: many billions of years alright, so we'd be toast and

961
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:17,040
Speaker 1: maybe not live as long. But would we even be here,

962
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:20,279
Speaker 1: Like if you gave charge to the neutrino, would the

963
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:22,480
Speaker 1: universe form the same way? Or will we also have

964
00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:25,800
Speaker 1: like interesting new kinds of matter. It would be totally different,

965
00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:27,960
Speaker 1: where the stable forms of matter would be really different,

966
00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:31,640
Speaker 1: and you would probably have like neutrinos in bound states

967
00:48:31,719 --> 00:48:34,719
Speaker 1: around protons. Right, you could form atoms with neutrinos, not

968
00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:37,800
Speaker 1: just with electrons, And maybe you could have atoms that

969
00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:40,480
Speaker 1: have like some neutrinos and some electrons, And again the

970
00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:43,720
Speaker 1: orbitals would be really weird, and chemistry would be much harder.

971
00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:46,640
Speaker 1: Like you think organic chemistry is hard now, whow with

972
00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:49,520
Speaker 1: neutrinos in there, it would be even more complicated. So

973
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:51,759
Speaker 1: I wouldn't even deign to predict what it would look like.

974
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:54,399
Speaker 1: But I'm sure that the very structure of matter would

975
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:57,359
Speaker 1: be very different if neutrinos had electric charge and could

976
00:48:57,400 --> 00:49:01,960
Speaker 1: participate in the forming of atoms. All right, Well, I

977
00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:04,320
Speaker 1: think maybe the main lesson from all of these questions

978
00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:07,800
Speaker 1: from Thomas is that like the universe could be very different,

979
00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:09,960
Speaker 1: and it wouldn't take that much for things to be

980
00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:14,480
Speaker 1: totally different and maybe even feels like a totally different universe.

981
00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:17,280
Speaker 1: That's right, So Thomas, if you wander into the control

982
00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:20,279
Speaker 1: panel of the universe, please take care before you play

983
00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:22,960
Speaker 1: with somebos not. Ye I know, I know you're nine

984
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:25,160
Speaker 1: and you want to touch things and pull pushing buttons,

985
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:27,399
Speaker 1: but you know, think about it for a second. And also,

986
00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:29,640
Speaker 1: if you're a dog listening to this, also, you know,

987
00:49:30,239 --> 00:49:33,239
Speaker 1: restrain yourself. Don't turn into a super doogulin. All right, Well,

988
00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:36,560
Speaker 1: thank you Thomas for these awesome questions about what would

989
00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:39,240
Speaker 1: happen if things were a little bit different in our universe.

990
00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:41,360
Speaker 1: It sounds like things would be a lot different, Daniel,

991
00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:43,799
Speaker 1: things would be a lot different, And it just goes

992
00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:45,960
Speaker 1: to show you that the universe that we exist in

993
00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:50,399
Speaker 1: now really rest on like a very finely balanced set

994
00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:53,000
Speaker 1: of stuff, and if you change any of that, then

995
00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:56,280
Speaker 1: the downstream effects are very dramatic and very hard to predict.

996
00:49:56,520 --> 00:49:58,480
Speaker 1: All right, Well, let's be grateful that we have the

997
00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:00,799
Speaker 1: universe that we have with the pretty is that it has,

998
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:04,520
Speaker 1: because otherwise we wouldn't be here to ask these awesome questions.

999
00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:06,920
Speaker 1: That's right, and thank you very much to Thomas his

1000
00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:10,040
Speaker 1: mom for encouraging his curiosity. And thank you to all

1001
00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:13,520
Speaker 1: the parents out there who fan the flames of curiosity

1002
00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:16,520
Speaker 1: and wonder in your children. Those are future scientists who

1003
00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:18,400
Speaker 1: I hope are going to solve the big problems of

1004
00:50:18,480 --> 00:50:20,600
Speaker 1: the day. You just don't get him a cat, just

1005
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:25,400
Speaker 1: to make sure it's a nice, friendly dog. All right. Well,

1006
00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:36,200
Speaker 1: thanks for joining us, see you next time. Thanks for listening,

1007
00:50:36,239 --> 00:50:38,960
Speaker 1: and remember that Daniel and Jorge explained. The Universe is

1008
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:42,480
Speaker 1: a production of I Heart Radio. Or more podcast from

1009
00:50:42,520 --> 00:50:46,200
Speaker 1: my heart Radio visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

1010
00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:48,720
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.