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Speaker 2: The Heart where Innovations, money and power. Collie in Silicon Valley, Nbon.
Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Technology with Caroline Hyde and Ed Love Loves.
Speaker 3: Live from New York. This is Blomberg Technology coming up.
Speaker 3: Time is ticking as the government works to avoid shutting
Speaker 3: down as Trump and Musk wield their political power.
Speaker 4: This as the big Tech Leader Merry Go Round.
Speaker 3: Mara Lago continues with Bezos the latest to try and
Speaker 3: influence Trump's policies and decisions, and the season for Intel
Speaker 3: deal making. Pe firms are competing for Intel's programmable chip
Speaker 3: arm Alterra. But let's just get to the broader markets
Speaker 3: in general. Push to twenty twenty five. Should you should
Speaker 3: be allocating Hillary fresh on police to says with US
Speaker 3: senior Search Analystic clear Bridge with a real focus on
Speaker 3: software And that for me has been the key calling
Speaker 3: card of December November December was movement from the hardware,
Speaker 3: from the infrastructure into the software and the applications of AI.
Speaker 4: Is that going to run on?
Speaker 5: That's right, Thanks Carolin for having me. I think in
Speaker 5: general it should run on. Although I said we've had
Speaker 5: We've come so long in such a short period of
Speaker 5: time this year, with the IDV software in next being
Speaker 5: up forty percent between early August and early December, so
Speaker 5: I think some consolidation of the games we've seen is logical,
Speaker 5: and I could see more of that as we move
Speaker 5: through time in the beginning of the year. For a
Speaker 5: few reasons, but I think in general the trend is up,
Speaker 5: and I think we've reached an important point of demarcation.
Speaker 4: From the space.
Speaker 3: Let's go into those few reasons of why perhaps we're
Speaker 3: going to get a few headwinds rather than tell wins
Speaker 3: at the start. Is it macro policy, is it Trump
Speaker 3: coming in?
Speaker 5: It's uncertainties of for Macro and Trump, And it's also
Speaker 5: just time tested ellins. Like we're entering the seasonally weaker
Speaker 5: part of the year, companies are likely to guide conservatively
Speaker 5: on their Q four earnings calls, and also with what
Speaker 5: we heard from the Fed this week, the group will
Speaker 5: likely have to adjust to higher interest rates for longer
Speaker 5: and that has an impact on a few factors, including valuation.
Speaker 3: Looking at valuation more broadly, there have been the haves
Speaker 3: and have not some of them been entering big benchmarks.
Speaker 3: I think of Valenteer that has just been such a
Speaker 3: software winner. As people get galvanized by the generative AI opportunities,
Speaker 3: are those valuations too heady? At what point do we
Speaker 3: start to see Ultimately some of the PE ratios look
Speaker 3: pretty healthy because.
Speaker 4: They're managing to grow their earnings in lockstep.
Speaker 5: Such a good question. Volunteer is in somewhat rarefied error.
Speaker 5: It's the first name of scale to really capitalize on
Speaker 5: engine AI in a in a large way, and it
Speaker 5: also has the government tailwinds of where it's position, so
Speaker 5: it's doing tremendously well. Its valuation is head and shoulders
Speaker 5: above everyone else's, so I leave that alone. For the
Speaker 5: rest of the space, we are about to see I think,
Speaker 5: much better growth than we've seen. The space has been
Speaker 5: digesting a flurry of buy inactivity during COVID, so it's
Speaker 5: been really two years of digestion, and companies have been
Speaker 5: using technology as a source of cost savings. But now
Speaker 5: with the advent of generative AI and especially now agents,
Speaker 5: which I think market and a parodigm shift for the space,
Speaker 5: we're starting to see more investment.
Speaker 4: That's exciting.
Speaker 3: I mean, Palentino just showing how much has run up
Speaker 3: it's currently trading one hundred and ninety nine times future earnings.
Speaker 3: But let's go to where the oxygen is really being
Speaker 3: sucked out. The rim is all biogentic KI, And again
Speaker 3: I think there must be this question mark for investors
Speaker 3: and onlookers alike of well, show me the money, show
Speaker 3: me the productivity, show me how much this is actually
Speaker 3: gonna affect my life?
Speaker 4: Because I'm just hearing the words.
Speaker 5: Right, we're starting to see it's so early. The salesforce
Speaker 5: is effectively leading this movement. So many people are working
Speaker 5: on it, but they were of the first ones out
Speaker 5: with true urgentic functionality. I think it's been out seven weeks,
Speaker 5: maybe eight weeks.
Speaker 4: Have you used it?
Speaker 5: I personally have not used it. I've talked with a
Speaker 5: bunch of customers who have been using it, who have
Speaker 5: been testing it in data, and the feedback is excellent.
Speaker 5: The feedback is really compelling on accuracy, on ease of use,
Speaker 5: on the ability to draw together critical enterprise data and
Speaker 5: make some use of it. So I think we're just
Speaker 5: on the cusp of that. We're going to see other
Speaker 5: companies do that. But it makes for a compelling story
Speaker 5: and we can start to dream of a better time
Speaker 5: where growth is better, and part of that growth is
Speaker 5: going to come not just from the engines themselves, but
Speaker 5: from the underlying infrastructure. We're seeing customers take on that
Speaker 5: hard work of improving their data, harmonizing it, getting it
Speaker 5: ready for use, in investments in cloud and underlying infrastructure
Speaker 5: to make that work.
Speaker 3: We had Data Bax CEO raising a lot of money
Speaker 3: in the private markets, and they're all about sort of
Speaker 3: being able to use the data underlying. To that end, though,
Speaker 3: we're having a lot of the startups talking about genticare
Speaker 3: trying to get in the space, taking on the stile
Speaker 3: war's the giants such as sales Force. Are we going
Speaker 3: to see more M and A up activity once again
Speaker 3: everyone's wanted Benny Off to hold off, But more broadly,
Speaker 3: these software companies are going to get back into M
Speaker 3: and A with perhaps a more friendly administration to it.
Speaker 5: Sure, well, yes, no, and yes I think we absolutely do.
Speaker 5: I think part of the reason why we've seen that
Speaker 5: rise in software evaluations since the summer is because of
Speaker 5: this friendlier stance. We're likely to see at least on
Speaker 5: large companies buying smaller companies. We'll leave the rest of
Speaker 5: large company administration aside, but there's that we will see
Speaker 5: a lot of startups trying to get in the space,
Speaker 5: and some will be successful. There's always disruption when there's
Speaker 5: a new cycle and new tech wave. But what is
Speaker 5: compelling is that we can see these large companies capitalize
Speaker 5: augment their ports selarios. We're seeing them do that salesforce specifically,
Speaker 5: they are making tuck in acquisitions. Ultimately we probably see
Speaker 5: them do something, but right now they seem so focused
Speaker 5: on what they have at hand that we may not
Speaker 5: see what we've seen traditionally from the company in terms
Speaker 5: of large semine and in fact, the company still has
Speaker 5: a large swath of activists on the board who are
Speaker 5: highly engaged.
Speaker 3: And keeping a close eye on the purse strings very
Speaker 3: more broadly. Therefore, when twenty twenty three twenty twenty four
Speaker 3: was so dominated by one name and Nvidia and everyone
Speaker 3: asking you about the infrastructure to the software names that
Speaker 3: you really kept an eye on, are we going to
Speaker 3: see this shift now? Is everyone going to just be
Speaker 3: more around agents?
Speaker 4: Is it going to be the time of quantum?
Speaker 3: What do you think twenty twenty five is going to
Speaker 3: be the cocktail party.
Speaker 4: Question for you?
Speaker 5: Okay, that's an exciting one and one that will change
Speaker 5: every week.
Speaker 4: We have cocktails for more.
Speaker 5: We've had this push and pull between semis and software
Speaker 5: the entire time, as investor try to identify the real
Speaker 5: AI beneficiary. In reality, over time they'll both be strong
Speaker 5: beneficiaries in one way or another. The names than that
Speaker 5: group may shift, but I think software is starting its
Speaker 5: period of appreciation of AI wills and agents. As I mentioned,
Speaker 5: I think they represent the period of shift from homegrown
Speaker 5: AI or do it yourself AI to do it for
Speaker 5: me AI, and the customers would for prefer the vendors
Speaker 5: do it for them.
Speaker 4: It's going to be.
Speaker 5: Better, faster, cheaper in the end, and so I think
Speaker 5: that's a story that continues, and there are other things
Speaker 5: I like about software. Semis are in the process of
Speaker 5: getting beaten up. There's a lot of debate over whether
Speaker 5: we're going to see the big behemoth million GPU pre
Speaker 5: train models or the smaller models or post test time
Speaker 5: training where the training occurs at the point of inference,
Speaker 5: and that will have financial implications. But in the end,
Speaker 5: we're going to need a lot of semis for what
Speaker 5: we're about to do.
Speaker 4: The demands way eclipses supply. He let me fresh. So
Speaker 4: it's joy to have you in the studio, Senior.
Speaker 3: We such Analystic clear Bridge, but always leave wanting to
Speaker 3: talk a little bit more. Meanwhile, Intel, let's talk about
Speaker 3: a chick company on online and shortlisting a number of
Speaker 3: buyout firms for the next round of bidding for a
Speaker 3: terror that's its unit which specializes in the design of
Speaker 3: low power programmable chips, so at according to sources, let's
Speaker 3: bringing in Murgs Ryan Gold. So how close to the
Speaker 3: nmark are we here? How many serious bids have come
Speaker 3: in and how broad are they?
Speaker 6: Yes, if you think back Caroline too, just before Thanksgiving
Speaker 6: we put out a story that said that they were
Speaker 6: calling for bids. I think just prefacing all of this,
Speaker 6: ol Terra is kind of the single biggest topic in
Speaker 6: tech em and a right now for people who specialize
Speaker 6: in semiconductors.
Speaker 4: It's taking up a lot of time.
Speaker 6: People are spending a lot of money thinking about how
Speaker 6: to sort of structure their bids. So bids came in
Speaker 6: just after Thanksgiving, and so Intel has now got into
Speaker 6: a period where they've shortlisted. You've got firms like Bain
Speaker 6: who know and tell very well, you've got firms like
Speaker 6: Silver Like who also know Intel very well. And then
Speaker 6: there are others such as Apollo, you know, who are
Speaker 6: also looking Francisco partners, you know, quite experienced semiconductor operators.
Speaker 6: And then just to add a little bit of intrigue
Speaker 6: to the mixed lettice conductor, which does specialize in what
Speaker 6: we call FPGA's the same sort of type of technology
Speaker 6: that Intel is trying to sell here in Old Terror,
Speaker 6: they are also in the mix and also in the second.
Speaker 3: Round, but their own market capitalization not that huge, so
Speaker 3: they'd have to partner.
Speaker 4: What are some of the options here?
Speaker 3: Does Intel internally want to fully hand over rains here
Speaker 3: or keep.
Speaker 4: Skin in the game.
Speaker 6: I think Intel is quite COI on what it really
Speaker 6: wants to do. I think if you look at what
Speaker 6: they've said publicly, they have stated that their plan, even
Speaker 6: pre and postpat is to sell a stake and eventually
Speaker 6: take al Terra public. But I think just when you're
Speaker 6: in the situation that Intel's in, there are options, and
Speaker 6: you know, options on the table have to be considered.
Speaker 6: You have to think about the long term future and
Speaker 6: sustainability of those options. And so I think if something
Speaker 6: is presented to them that they see is compelling, they
Speaker 6: will give good, good credence to it. And I would
Speaker 6: just say there are many sort of proposals on the
Speaker 6: table here. There are multiple paths outlined from different suitors.
Speaker 6: For example, there could be a situation that you know,
Speaker 6: you see a group of private equities for so it's
Speaker 6: come together and take this on and sort of use
Speaker 6: their operational now to kind of transform more terror into
Speaker 6: what they think it should be.
Speaker 3: Well, a few bankers are going to be busy over
Speaker 3: the firstive period, Ran Gold, We know that you will
Speaker 3: be too, Thanks so much for coming on. Meanwhile, coming up,
Speaker 3: time is ticking for the government to avoid a shutdown.
Speaker 4: That says Trump and Musk weigh in.
Speaker 3: We're talking how busy politicians are at this particular moment.
Speaker 3: Just take a quick look at one particular stock on
Speaker 3: the move as well. I just asked Hillary, look, is
Speaker 3: twenty twenty five is going to be the year we
Speaker 3: talk about quantum Well, it's here, it's now, and it's
Speaker 3: up twenty one percent for this particular stock one name
Speaker 3: where Craig Hallum is maintaining a buy on this particular company,
Speaker 3: raising the price target to forty five. We've also had yesterday,
Speaker 3: DA Davison also initiating coverage with a by rating we're
Speaker 3: piling in.
Speaker 4: This is Bloomberg technology.
Speaker 3: The House of Representatives could vote on a temporary measure
Speaker 3: to fund the government for a brief period and avert
Speaker 3: a shutdown. That's according to two news networks, Fox News
Speaker 3: NBC citing sources. This after the House, led by Republicans,
Speaker 3: rejected a temporary funding plan despite Trumpenino Musk's pressure on
Speaker 3: goped or make us to support it when most Kaylee
Speaker 3: Lines joins us for now from Washington. It feels as
Speaker 3: though everyone's intent on not having a break before the holidays.
Speaker 7: Yeah, usually the holiday period and the smell of jet
Speaker 7: fumes is enough to motivate lawmakers to get done when
Speaker 7: they need to get done by the deadline, Caroline. But
Speaker 7: we are getting very close to the wire here, keeping
Speaker 7: in mind that government funding does expire at midnight tonight,
Speaker 7: so we're talking of window here of just under thirteen hours.
Speaker 7: And it's not yet clear what exactly planned C will
Speaker 7: be after Plan A failed, in part because Elon Musk
Speaker 7: and Donald Trump wanted to see that initial one hundred
Speaker 7: or one five hundred and forty seven page bill die.
Speaker 7: Then the Plan B, a much slim down bill that
Speaker 7: also extended the debt ceiling for two years, failed in
Speaker 7: miserable fashion on the House floor last night, with thirty
Speaker 7: eight Republicans voting against it. So now the question is
Speaker 7: going to be can something get through the House today
Speaker 7: that will avoid us shut down. We are expecting that
Speaker 7: Republicans will be holding a conference meeting just over an
Speaker 7: hour from now at twelve thirty pm Eastern Time, where
Speaker 7: they could be informed of what the plan is next,
Speaker 7: and there have been reporting has been reporting from punch
Speaker 7: Bowl News that they could actually end up just dividing
Speaker 7: the bill that failed last night, so essentially holding separate
Speaker 7: votes on a continuing resolution on the debt sealing measure
Speaker 7: on disaster relief and seeing what can get across the floor.
Speaker 3: Because there's two tug of wars here for those who
Speaker 3: aren't as in the weeds as you are. On the
Speaker 3: one front, it seems as though this is pushed largely
Speaker 3: by Musk and Trump that we don't want to see
Speaker 3: this pork, this money being given away in terms of
Speaker 3: federal aid. But on the other side is the Republicans
Speaker 3: that are really flinching to the idea of the debt
Speaker 3: ceiling just being put aside for a couple of years,
Speaker 3: which doesn't seem particularly fiscally responsible according to them.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's exactly right, Caroline.
Speaker 7: This is a relatively new idea that has at least
Speaker 7: publicly been introduced by Donald Trump in the last several days,
Speaker 7: this notion that the debt ceiling either should be extended
Speaker 7: or repealed, lifted entirely permanently before he takes office on
Speaker 7: January twentieth. Now, lomakers I've spoken with, including the Democratic
Speaker 7: Majority Durbin last night, suggested to me that this is
Speaker 7: likely because he knows he wants to get through a
Speaker 7: tax reform package next year, and lifting the debt ceiling
Speaker 7: is an easy way to get that done, or at
Speaker 7: least make that process easier. That said, there are a
Speaker 7: number of conservatives in the House, many representing that part
Speaker 7: of that thirty eight that voted against this measure last night,
Speaker 7: that do not want to see the debt ceiling raised
Speaker 7: because they want to see more fiscal responsibility than that.
Speaker 7: So that's really going to be the question as we
Speaker 7: move forward today. Can something that lifts the debt ceiling
Speaker 7: get across the floor. Is it really only something that's
Speaker 7: going to keep the government funded for some period of time.
Speaker 7: It could ultimately be shorter than what they were initially planning,
Speaker 7: which was a three month continuing resolution that would kick
Speaker 7: the can down the road to March fourteenth. But Speaker
Speaker 7: Johnson has a very difficult needle to thread here because
Speaker 7: he has to abide by not only what his conference
Speaker 7: wantson is willing to vote for, but what Donald Trump
Speaker 7: and Elon Musk clearly are willing to see across the floor.
Speaker 7: And he has to stand for a speaker election again
Speaker 7: on January third, when one hundred and nineteenth Congress sits.
Speaker 7: And there's a very open question at this hour as
Speaker 7: to whether or not, given everything that's gone down in
Speaker 7: the last several days, Speaker Johnson is going to be
Speaker 7: able to keep the gabble.
Speaker 4: Katie Lyones, great breakdown. Thank you.
Speaker 3: Now we continue to report, of course, on the tech
Speaker 3: titans who have been meeting dining with President elect Trump
Speaker 3: in the last few days. Of course, you know that
Speaker 3: Meta CEO Mark Zuckerberg seemed to kick off the rounds
Speaker 3: of meetings Google co found us Aga Brin on the
Speaker 3: action Amazons Jeff Bezos. The latest list doesn't even include
Speaker 3: the other big tech leaders who are officially working within.
Speaker 4: The incoming administration.
Speaker 3: You know, mosk as the coludo Department of Government Efficiency,
Speaker 3: David Sachs, the AI cryptos are Marc Andreesen as an advisor,
Speaker 3: we understand, just to name a few numos. Kurt Wagner
Speaker 3: joins us to discuss the new intersection of tech and
Speaker 3: politics going into twenty twenty five. Some names that we
Speaker 3: already know very much about, but I'm sure a few
Speaker 3: more trying to line up for a dinner invitation.
Speaker 8: Yeah, I mean, everyone seems to be making their way
Speaker 8: to mar A Lago. There is a very different feel
Speaker 8: this time around Carolina. As you might recall from twenty sixteen.
Speaker 8: At that point, you know, Trump did hold that sort
Speaker 8: of famous meeting in Trump Tower where all the tech
Speaker 8: executives ended up coming, but it felt more like they
Speaker 8: were almost forced to be there, right and they were
Speaker 8: dealing with their employees back at headquarters, mostly in Silicon Valley,
Speaker 8: complaining and protesting and all this stuff. This time it
Speaker 8: feels different. They're going sort of one by one. They're
Speaker 8: having dinner at mar A Lago. They're you know, being
Speaker 8: very friendly. And I think the awkward situation here is
Speaker 8: the Elon Musk of this, all right, because all of
Speaker 8: these people are competitors in some way or another two
Speaker 8: Elon or his companies, and often when they're showing up
Speaker 8: to dinner in some cases like Jeff Bezos from Amazon,
Speaker 8: Elon Musk is at the table, right, and how much
Speaker 8: can you really say to Donald Trump? How much can
Speaker 8: you really accomplish when one of your biggest enemies is
Speaker 8: sitting right there across the table from you.
Speaker 3: Certainly space competition fears between Blue Origin and SpaceX cut.
Speaker 3: But ultimately, what do you think they will achieve by
Speaker 3: giving small In the case of the absolute balance sheets,
Speaker 3: they have small amounts towards the inauguration of Trump. And indeed,
Speaker 3: these meetings where they're showing off I think Mark was
Speaker 3: showing off the metaglasses and the latest innovations to President
Speaker 3: elect Trump going forward. How is this sort of dovetailing
Speaker 3: into actually what they want to see from a legislative agenda.
Speaker 8: Yeah, I think everyone sort of is in agreement that
Speaker 8: the best way to stay on Donald Trump's good side
Speaker 8: is to praise him to show up and sort of
Speaker 8: demonstrate that with a public display of affection, right, whether
Speaker 8: that be a million dollar donation to the inaugural fund,
Speaker 8: showing up to dinner and making that trek across the
Speaker 8: country to be there in person. And every one of
Speaker 8: these companies want something different. But I think generally, if
Speaker 8: you want a blanket Stata, they don't want him to
Speaker 8: come in hard with regulation around all the technology they're building,
Speaker 8: especially with regards to AI. Right, Like the last thing
Speaker 8: Mark Zuckerberg wants, for example, is for the Trump administration
Speaker 8: to some they say, hey, we're going to try to
Speaker 8: hamper this AI growth. We're going to make it very
Speaker 8: difficult for you Mark Zuckerberg, in particularly because you didn't
Speaker 8: show up tomorrow lago and make Trump feel special.
Speaker 9: Right.
Speaker 8: And so I think they are all doing what they
Speaker 8: need to do just to simply be in his good
Speaker 8: graces and hopes that those are relationships because they are
Speaker 8: so important to the incoming president. Those relationships will ultimately help,
Speaker 8: you know, make their road easier over these next four years.
Speaker 3: Many feel akin to Peter tail Now, who's the only
Speaker 3: one really in twenty sixteen, half times a change. Kurt Wagner,
Speaker 3: It's great to have your Time, Thank you Time now
Speaker 3: for talking tech. First up ten Cent and some related
Speaker 3: stocks is you'll see soaring on Friday after investor enthusiasm
Speaker 3: is taking over on a new gifting function on we
Speaker 3: Chat Now the future will allow yousers to give gifts
Speaker 3: price less than thirteen hundred dollars, excluding jewelry and educational services.
Speaker 3: According to a statement, Snacks cosmetics service providers are all
Speaker 3: lightly beneficiaries class sticking with ten Cents, and it's partnering
Speaker 3: with Honor on cloud and AI development.
Speaker 4: As as one of China's top.
Speaker 3: Device makers, Honor is among Tencent's higher profile cloud customers.
Speaker 3: It will use ten cents big data, analytics and search tools,
Speaker 3: along with two companies jointly creating a coding assistant to
Speaker 3: help Honor software engineers, and Baido extends its decline that
Speaker 3: says investors react to news that Apple is in talks
Speaker 3: to work with ten Cent byte Dance on you guested
Speaker 3: artificial intelligence. This also comes as newspaper reports that byte
Speaker 3: Dance has slashed the price of its new AI model,
Speaker 3: and Honheim Precision Industry, the Taiwan based manufacturer of iPhones
Speaker 3: of course it's known as fox Con too, is putting
Speaker 3: its interest in pursuing Nissan on hold as one negotiations
Speaker 3: for a potential merger with Hondura underway.
Speaker 4: It's all according to source.
Speaker 3: Meanwhile, karlosh Gohen, who was the architect of the Reno
Speaker 3: Nissan alliance twenty five years ago, said that the tie
Speaker 3: up between Nissan and Honda is a.
Speaker 4: Quote desperate move. Here's what he told Bloomberg yesterday.
Speaker 10: They have cash problem, they have investment problems. They're being
Speaker 10: really hammered in the United States. They got practically out
Speaker 10: of Europe, They're being challenged in China, and there is
Speaker 10: no plan in front of it. So I can tell
Speaker 10: you that mean there is panic mode inside MEISA.
Speaker 3: In fact, that was colors go speaking earlier today with
Speaker 3: our own MANUSCRANI let's get out to Craig Jurell for
Speaker 3: the latest on the tie up.
Speaker 4: And indeed all of it was.
Speaker 3: Catalyzed Craig by Fox Cohn's interest in Nissan and Japan
Speaker 3: racing to ensure that Chainese companies weren't buying up Japanese ones.
Speaker 4: But now is out the game.
Speaker 11: Yeah, I think we can't necessarily rule out at this
Speaker 11: point that Fox Khan will completely leave the picture here.
Speaker 11: I think this is a case of you know, real
Speaker 11: genuine interests. You have an executive at Fox KHT who's
Speaker 11: overseeing their ev you know, initiatives who is actually a
Speaker 11: former Nissan executive, which sort of adds to the intrigue.
Speaker 11: You also have a case of just a very you know,
Speaker 11: complex deal, and it's very unclear at this juncture what
Speaker 11: exactly is going to happen between Honda and Nissan. If anything,
Speaker 11: you do have a case of a Nissan really needing
Speaker 11: some help and effectively needing a rescue by all accounts,
Speaker 11: likely some role that the Japanese government is playing here
Speaker 11: and trying to kind of nudge these two companies together,
Speaker 11: but real questions about you know, how exactly this is
Speaker 11: going to work out. And also another company in France
Speaker 11: and Reno, who also is going to come into play.
Speaker 11: So watch this space in twenty twenty five.
Speaker 3: I get no respite for you when it comes to
Speaker 3: deal coverage. Craig very briefly China and the week spot
Speaker 3: for both.
Speaker 11: Yeah, absolutely, I think both of these companies have been
Speaker 11: shrinking in that market. I think there are a questions
Speaker 11: about their long term future there as well as a
Speaker 11: lot of Western companies. You know what exactly is is
Speaker 11: there going to be in terms of room for international
Speaker 11: companies given the desire for from China to really dominate
Speaker 11: this industry and also dominate it's on market.
Speaker 4: Crazy down.
Speaker 3: We thank you as always, Welcome back to New Meg Technology.
Speaker 4: I'm Calin Hid in New York. We check in on one.
Speaker 3: Key reflection of risk sentiment over the course of this week.
Speaker 3: Bitcoin at one point on Tuesday exceeding one hundred and
Speaker 3: eight thousand dollars per token, and now we dive down
Speaker 3: to about ninety seven thousand dollars level that we're only
Speaker 3: off about five percent since the trading days on Sunday,
Speaker 3: remember the rest of the wicked this trades twenty four
Speaker 3: to seven.
Speaker 4: But we are seeing just money come out for the
Speaker 4: first time. In fact, after fifteen.
Speaker 3: Straight days of money going into those spot bitcoin ets,
Speaker 3: we had a pause and a record outflow on Thursday,
Speaker 3: six eighty million dollars. People start to digest what higher
Speaker 3: for longer? Just two rate cuts come twenty twenty five
Speaker 3: really does mean for an ultimately record run that we've
Speaker 3: seen for bitcoin since the election of Trump. Now we
Speaker 3: want to just dig into is what some of the
Speaker 3: excibits have been saying our investment management ceo, for example,
Speaker 3: Kathy Wood joining Bloomberg The Close yesterday to discuss her
Speaker 3: outlook for bitcoin in twenty twenty five.
Speaker 4: She also talked about her bets on Tesla.
Speaker 3: And how much the incoming Trump administration will impact the
Speaker 3: Tesla story and in particular autonomous driving.
Speaker 4: Just take a listen.
Speaker 3: Well.
Speaker 12: I think one of the changes again back to regulation
Speaker 12: is the likelihood that autonomous mobility, so robotaxis are going
Speaker 12: to be regulated not on the state level, so fifty
Speaker 12: different regulators, but on the federal level. After all, autonomous
Speaker 12: vehicles will travel from state to states, so it really
Speaker 12: should be federal legislation. So I think that will speed
Speaker 12: up the move towards autonomous taxi networks. And I do
Speaker 12: believe for that reason, investors analysts are starting to model
Speaker 12: out what that will mean to the Tesla model.
Speaker 4: It will take their.
Speaker 12: Gross margins from mid teens right now up into the
Speaker 12: sixties if we are right, because robotaxis and autonomous taxi
Speaker 12: network is a SaaS model. I think the other thing
Speaker 12: that has happened is more and more people are seeing
Speaker 12: videos of the humanoid robot doing all sorts of things
Speaker 12: that we didn't think were possible as the dexterity in
Speaker 12: its hands get so much better.
Speaker 1: Oh, Katy, I do want to pivot here and ask
Speaker 1: you about some of the market action, particularly over the
Speaker 1: last few months, and particularly when it comes to crypto.
Speaker 4: I'm sure you've seen.
Speaker 1: The big run up in bitcoin above briefly above one
Speaker 1: hundred grand, now back below that today, but certainly phenomenal
Speaker 1: run on a year to date base system where it
Speaker 1: was just a few months ago. Here do you still
Speaker 1: sort of see bitcoin really hitting some of those lofty
Speaker 1: milestones that you've talked about before, you know, I mean,
Speaker 1: one hundred thousand is still a long way from a million.
Speaker 1: I do kind of wonder how much further you think
Speaker 1: this could actually go.
Speaker 12: Well, what's interesting about bitcoin today, Now that we're going
Speaker 12: to get more regulatory green lights, we're seeing institutional investors
Speaker 12: focus on this new asset class, and as they're learning
Speaker 12: about it, they're saying, wait a minute, this new asset class,
Speaker 12: or this component of a new asset class, Bitcoin is
Speaker 12: going to reach twenty one million units out there, twenty
Speaker 12: one million bitcoin out there at its peak and no
Speaker 12: more from there on, Where are we now, we're all
Speaker 12: ready above nineteen and a half million units, and so
Speaker 12: if institutional investors are looking at this new asset class
Speaker 12: more seriously, and bitcoin is really the first of its
Speaker 12: kind in a new asset class, and we believe the
Speaker 12: biggest opportunity of them all, they must consider an allocation
Speaker 12: and so supply demand. They're doing the arithmetic, and we
Speaker 12: see a million to a million and a half by
Speaker 12: twenty thirty that the probability of that has increased because
Speaker 12: of institutional.
Speaker 3: Some fundamentals there from Kathywood of Ook Investment Management. Let's
Speaker 3: stick on Bitcoin, the crypto ecosystem a little bit more
Speaker 3: as we've seen of course it falling from its record
Speaker 3: highs and having impact on some of the smaller coins too,
Speaker 3: or following the hoky signals coming from the Fed, Matt
Speaker 3: Hans in the house Bitwise Asset Management Chief investment Officer
Speaker 3: Matt just we saw the fundamental reasons why Kathywood is
Speaker 3: still bullish into twenty twenty five and beyond.
Speaker 4: But should anyone be worrying.
Speaker 3: About the sudden weakness that we've seen in the last
Speaker 3: few trading days.
Speaker 8: No, it's great to be on I think the weakness
Speaker 8: we've seen over the last few days is a healthy pullback.
Speaker 8: If you look at the crypto market big picture, it's
Speaker 8: run up substantially since the election. We saw a lot
Speaker 8: of leverage build up in the system, and this is
Speaker 8: a natural washing out of leverage. There's been about two
Speaker 8: billion dollars of forced liquidations over the last two days.
Speaker 8: This has happened in crypto since its very earliest period.
Speaker 8: We need to reset the leverage levels and then we'll
Speaker 8: build from there. But the long term drivers are still intact.
Speaker 8: We're still in a strong bull market. I think Kathy
Speaker 8: is right about where this is going. We feel exactly
Speaker 8: the same at bitwise.
Speaker 3: I mean, you are someone who has seen some highs
Speaker 3: and lows. You understand the volatility and the asset class map,
Speaker 3: but I'm interested in it. Who is coming to your
Speaker 3: asset management company? Oh, we've got some exciting music playing
Speaker 3: on set that thrilled to hear about what you think
Speaker 3: in terms of institutional money coming now bit wise as way,
Speaker 3: is it still a flood of retail and high net
Speaker 3: worth individuals?
Speaker 4: What are you see in terms of changes?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really been both so far this year.
Speaker 8: But I'm aligned with Kathy and thinking that the institutions
Speaker 8: have now started moving in in size. When you saw
Speaker 8: the fifteen straight days of inflows into the Bitcoin ETF's
Speaker 8: post election, I believe that was institutional capital at bit wise.
Speaker 8: Every year we survey professional investors and ask them what's
Speaker 8: keeping them out of the market, and for six straight
Speaker 8: years they said a lack of regulatory clarity.
Speaker 2: Well, that regulatory.
Speaker 8: Clarity is coming and that's open the floodgates to institutions.
Speaker 8: And I would just say, I think most people underestimate
Speaker 8: the size of this blackrock. Just came out and said
Speaker 8: most people should have one to two percent allocation to bitcoin.
Speaker 8: There's one hundred trillion dollars of institutional assets out there.
Speaker 8: Two percent is a lot of investment that still has
Speaker 8: to happen. We're going to start seeing that really come
Speaker 8: in in twenty twenty five.
Speaker 4: Into bitcoin still predominantly. How is this going to broaden
Speaker 4: ow map?
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're already seeing it broadened out.
Speaker 8: Actually, a lot of people were worried about the Ethereum ETFs,
Speaker 8: for instance, which launched this summer and had tepid inflows.
Speaker 8: But over the last month or so you've seen billions
Speaker 8: of dollars flow into those products. Again, the things that
Speaker 8: have happened in crypto in the past keep happening. Historically,
Speaker 8: most people enter crypto through bitpoint and then they discover
Speaker 8: Ethereum and then they think about Solana. There's no reason
Speaker 8: to assume that the institutions that came into bitpoint won't
Speaker 8: move on to other assets in the future. In fact,
Speaker 8: I think in twenty twenty five you're going to see
Speaker 8: an explosion of interest in index based strategies that give
Speaker 8: diversified exposure to crypto. Of course, something we've been doing
Speaker 8: at bitwise since twenty seventeen when we pioneered that concept.
Speaker 8: I think twenty twenty five is when that sort of
Speaker 8: becomes a mainstream way to allocate to this space, the
Speaker 8: same way it is to stocks and bonds and real
Speaker 8: estate and everything else.
Speaker 3: You were talking about how the regulatory picture has going
Speaker 3: to become clearer. We've seen a new AI cryptos are announced.
Speaker 3: It's someone who's invested in bitwise, David Sacks.
Speaker 4: How much have you been in touch with David? How
Speaker 4: much have you been.
Speaker 3: Ultimately able to steer the conversation from a bitwise perspective.
Speaker 8: Yeah, you know, David is a good friend of bit Wise,
Speaker 8: has been an investor for a long period of time.
Speaker 8: The reason it's so important to have someone like David
Speaker 8: Sacks in that position is these two industries are critical
Speaker 8: to America's future, and they've really been constrained and challenged
Speaker 8: by regulatory you know, overreach, regulation by enforcement. I think
Speaker 8: the market probably doesn't understand how fast these industries can
Speaker 8: move if there is regulatory clarity. So you know, bit
Speaker 8: wise is involved in Washington. We talked to folks in
Speaker 8: Washington all the time. It's great to have people who
Speaker 8: understand crypto now taking office.
Speaker 2: I'm just excited to see what happens from here.
Speaker 3: We went back to something you just said that things
Speaker 3: happen again and again when it comes to crypto. The
Speaker 3: dominance of bitcoin was your pursuit of thought. But what
Speaker 3: happens again and again is that all boats rise, and
Speaker 3: not all boats are great. And we see meme coins
Speaker 3: coming out thick and fast, being spun up, and there's
Speaker 3: fun and there's exuberance, and there's an air of being
Speaker 3: at the seat of the table at blackjack sometimes and
Speaker 3: I'm not taking that away from the market participants, but
Speaker 3: how much is there a worry that mean coins are
Speaker 3: going to become something that do ultimately hurt those who
Speaker 3: don't understand them enough.
Speaker 4: The trading nature of it.
Speaker 8: All, Yeah, I think that's worth being concerned about. And
Speaker 8: again I think the answer there is better regulatory clarity.
Speaker 8: We've sort of taken a hands off approach. We're not
Speaker 8: going to touch this, which isn't the right way to
Speaker 8: help investors. We need reasonable rules that allow crypto to
Speaker 8: thrive but separates the good from the bad. So it's
Speaker 8: absolutely true investors moving into cryptos should be careful. There's
Speaker 8: a big difference between bitcoin and the latest AI driven
Speaker 8: meme coin. Folks need to understand that. So, yeah, we
Speaker 8: worry about this. People need to understand why mean coins exist.
Speaker 8: I agree it's a citing part of the market, but
Speaker 8: it shouldn't be a huge part of your portfolio.
Speaker 3: And let's just talk about the intersection of tradfi as
Speaker 3: people would call it, and crypto and how we're seeing
Speaker 3: a fusing together real world assets is something people talk
Speaker 3: a lot about ultimately going onto the blockchain of some sort.
Speaker 3: But Matt, there's also new offerings being spun up, whether
Speaker 3: it's in the options market, whether just other ways institutionally
Speaker 3: minded players can access the overall ecosystem. Is that progressing
Speaker 3: and maturing the way you want to see it?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely.
Speaker 8: We've been talking about crypto as a new asset class
Speaker 8: for a number of years, and a new asset class
Speaker 8: needs all of those pieces to thrive. It needs options,
Speaker 8: it needs ETFs, it needs ETF options, it needs futures,
Speaker 8: it needs other derivatives. It needs institutional players taking part
Speaker 8: in this ecosystem. We've been checking every box as an industry.
Speaker 8: So people who are skeptical that this is going to
Speaker 8: be a major new asset class that stands alongside stock
Speaker 8: and bonds and commodities in real estate, you just need
Speaker 8: to look at that track record. So from my perspective,
Speaker 8: it's been beautiful to see we've made a hugely bored
Speaker 8: in twenty twenty four, and I think that's going to
Speaker 8: accelerate in twenty twenty five.
Speaker 3: Now, Hagen a bit wise Asset Management say well, happy holidays,
Speaker 3: thank you. Coming up, we'll discuss AI agents and how
Speaker 3: they're revolutionizing customer service. Catherine Costarera is with us from Creatio.
Speaker 3: This is Bloomberg Technology. The EU has given unconditional approval
Speaker 3: to Invidia to buy the Israeli startup run Ai, which
Speaker 3: developed software for handling AI computing resources and has been
Speaker 3: a closet collaborator with Invidias's twenty twenty and the European
Speaker 3: Commission stated the takeover didn't pose any competition threats despite
Speaker 3: Nvidia's position as a quote leading producer of key hardware
Speaker 3: for AI applications used in the EU and beyond. Now,
Speaker 3: let's just take a little bit look about the applications
Speaker 3: of AI agent to KI so all you're going to
Speaker 3: hear in twenty twenty five, Let's bring in an expert
Speaker 3: there for Catherine Costerramer, CEO and founder of the no
Speaker 3: code and software automation company Creatio, valued at more than
Speaker 3: one point two billion dollars. You've been raising funds last
Speaker 3: time we spoke, and you're taking on some of the
Speaker 3: heavyweights that are publicly traded Salesforce service now and I'm
Speaker 3: interested as to how the agent force of salesforce is
Speaker 3: something that you've already been doing at Creatio or having
Speaker 3: to play catch upon.
Speaker 9: Hello, Carlian, So, first of all, thank you very much
Speaker 9: for having me. Very excited to be here today and
Speaker 9: very excited to talk about the future of enterprise software.
Speaker 9: I can tell you that I've never been as excited
Speaker 9: about the industry as I am now, even when the
Speaker 9: Internet was developing. Even at that time, I wasn't as
Speaker 9: excited as MTA. Because the CRM and workflow automation software,
Speaker 9: no code platforms that Creation Creato is building is going
Speaker 9: to look completely different than three to five years from now.
Speaker 9: Very exciting times.
Speaker 3: Okay, so it looks different because already you've been helping
Speaker 3: basically people who can't code code, but now agents is
Speaker 3: that a co pilot model just makes things even more bespoke.
Speaker 3: Have you not been deploying that already in previous iterations?
Speaker 3: Is now the market is caught onto it?
Speaker 9: Yeah, brilliant. So Creata has been AI native. And the
Speaker 9: biggest difference of Creative from you mentioned Salesforce, for example,
Speaker 9: is that we combine in AI command center all different
Speaker 9: patterns of AI. It's obviously generative AI like AI skills,
Speaker 9: it's agentic AI. It would be predictive AI, it would
Speaker 9: be prescriptive AI. So dependent on the use case again
Speaker 9: you mentioned service, it could be sales automation, marketing automation.
Speaker 9: We're going to be doing the particular use cases combining
Speaker 9: all different patterns of AI, and as it is a
Speaker 9: native it's not an additional module on top of it.
Speaker 9: It's not like we're announced CREATAI as a step traditional
Speaker 9: module and we charge for it. It's actually quite an opposite.
Speaker 9: We're not charging for it. It's the creational platform because
Speaker 9: AI is the central part of the.
Speaker 3: Platform ultimately, with everyone offering some sort of form of
Speaker 3: agent and a lot of it helping with coding. How
Speaker 3: do you fend your territory even if you're saying you
Speaker 3: know you're not having to pay extra for the generative
Speaker 3: AI or new AI applications is in your heart, But
Speaker 3: once others have got that pricing sorted and they're already
Speaker 3: in the rooms of your customers, how do you send
Speaker 3: the territory?
Speaker 9: Yeah, brilliant. So, first of all, let's start with saying
Speaker 9: that what creation AI delivers is to a part of
Speaker 9: the equation, if you will. From one end, it's no
Speaker 9: code development, as you exactly correctly said, so with AI
Speaker 9: building the applications on our no code platform. And the
Speaker 9: second part is using AI in the end user use
Speaker 9: cases like marketing, automation, sales, automation, service automation you need.
Speaker 9: So the combination of those two this is the biggest
Speaker 9: power that Creation delivers. And again being a native it's
Speaker 9: not a separate module on top of the existing platform.
Speaker 9: It is the platform itself. So the experience of a
Speaker 9: user is completely different. The experience that we're building with
Speaker 9: the user is creating for the user is not the
Speaker 9: user learning how to use the software. It's AI creation.
Speaker 9: AI is learning how to collaborate with this particular end
Speaker 9: user of the application. Because as we all know, English
Speaker 9: is the future program and language, and basically the collaboration
Speaker 9: between the user like yourself or myself, who is the
Speaker 9: workflow and CRM software. In the future, it's going to
Speaker 9: be using the natural language, using the natural language, and
Speaker 9: will be asking to create clothes, to create new digital campaigns.
Speaker 9: And it's very simple, very simple interface that is embedded
Speaker 9: in all the other applications that you're.
Speaker 4: Using as well. I'm really interested in adoption ultimately.
Speaker 3: That seems to be a bit of a bottleneck. We're
Speaker 3: hearing of late that there's seen a plateauing of employees
Speaker 3: using the tools that have been invested in by the
Speaker 3: CEOs and the LIGHT because they're worried that they're being
Speaker 3: deemed lazy in some way or they're not getting the
Speaker 3: training that's necessary. But we also know that really to
Speaker 3: see real creativity, you just need to get this into users'
Speaker 3: hands and see how they adopt it.
Speaker 4: What have you seen a Creatio? How have people been
Speaker 4: using it?
Speaker 9: And continuing to yes and listen, Thank you very much
Speaker 9: for asking this question. There are two aspects of it.
Speaker 9: So the first aspect is everyone is building and developing
Speaker 9: the new AI skills, and Creation does exactly the same way,
Speaker 9: expanding the library of AI skills, meaning we expand the
Speaker 9: number of use cases that can be covered using AI.
Speaker 9: And again, the future, if you ask me about twenty
Speaker 9: twenty five, the future is that the user can do
Speaker 9: any CRM use case in Creatio AI without actually opening
Speaker 9: any other interfaces, just one Creation AI interpace and collaboration
Speaker 9: in English. So building those AI skills, it takes a
Speaker 9: little bit of time, but Creation is definitely in a
Speaker 9: front runner here. But from the other side, let's talk
Speaker 9: about this the pricing part of it, because in a
Speaker 9: case of Creation, Creation AI is literally the platform itself.
Speaker 9: So all our users who have the base licenses of Creatio,
Speaker 9: they already have access to creation AI, while in other
Speaker 9: cases with our competitors, they do need to acquire to
Speaker 9: buy additional licenses in order to start this adoption process.
Speaker 9: So partially, I guess again I don't know exactly the
Speaker 9: salesforce numbers, but I would guess that would be partially
Speaker 9: the reason why their adoption is not as fast as
Speaker 9: they would expect to predict.
Speaker 3: And just to clarify, it's not salesforce as numbers, it
Speaker 3: was actually some numbers put out though by Slack that
Speaker 3: we were looking across various different industry groups, across various
Speaker 3: different AI adoptions and different tools.
Speaker 4: But it was great to speak with you. Thank you
Speaker 4: for coming on happy holidays.
Speaker 3: Catherine Kostueva, founding CEO of Creatio Teams does union members
Speaker 3: they're striking against Amazon for a second day, just as
Speaker 3: shoppers make their final Christmas purchases. Groups of workers at
Speaker 3: seven facilities in California, New York, and Annoyed Georgia are
Speaker 3: demanding better wages and working conditions. Amazon says it's filed
Speaker 3: unfair labor practices charges against the union as the Teams
Speaker 3: claims a strike expansion is coming, but it makes about
Speaker 3: day has been across this story, and Matt, how much
Speaker 3: impact is it actually having.
Speaker 13: Well, the best we can tell, not a whole lot.
Speaker 13: These are seven facilities, and that sounds like a lot,
Speaker 13: but you know, against Amazon's base of something like a
Speaker 13: thousand depots in the US, there's a lot of whigger room.
Speaker 13: They've got to send packages through other facilities, you know,
Speaker 13: especially as the teams have been making noise about a
Speaker 13: potential strike for more than a week now, so they
Speaker 13: had some advance noticed this was coming, and they knew
Speaker 13: which facilities, So I wouldn't expect this to derail their
Speaker 13: operation at all.
Speaker 3: But what about derailing the future path of unionization will broadly, Matt,
Speaker 3: because all of this is about teamsters trying to lure
Speaker 3: over more people to join.
Speaker 4: I see, that's right, and.
Speaker 13: On that front, I think we'll see. But this is
Speaker 13: definitely the biggest action to date targeting Amazon by US
Speaker 13: labor in the United States. You know, there's been union
Speaker 13: drives at specific warehouses before, no one has ever tried
Speaker 13: what the teamsters are doing, which is organizing you know,
Speaker 13: across their delivery depots and contract workers and Amazon Blue
Speaker 13: badge employees themselves. So this is a pretty big effort. Amazon,
Speaker 13: for their part, says it's a lot of pr so far,
Speaker 13: but you know, they certainly have the teamsters full attention
Speaker 13: now and they're taking it seriously.
Speaker 3: Look, other companies are being affected by strike action at
Speaker 3: the moment as well, Starbucks being one of them. And
Speaker 3: I'm interested as to how these leaders of the businesses
Speaker 3: are looking towards the next administration because many workers feel represented,
Speaker 3: but many feel that perhaps some things said by Trump
Speaker 3: and Musk around unions have been pretty averse to them.
Speaker 13: Yeah, so I think union union folks are pretty sober
Speaker 13: on the reality of the changing administration.
Speaker 10: Right.
Speaker 13: The National Labor Relations Sport has been a very labor
Speaker 13: friendly body under the Biden administration. That's likely to change
Speaker 13: in the Trump years. But that said, workers have said, listen,
Speaker 13: this is all about developing support on the factory floor,
Speaker 13: you know, among your barista pals, among people packing packages, right,
Speaker 13: and that's not necessarily been a change. It's all about
Speaker 13: what kind of support they can drum up among the workers,
Speaker 13: rather than does DC have their back.
Speaker 3: Matt Day, We thank you Amazon, cha is still training
Speaker 3: higher amid some of the strike action.
Speaker 4: We really appreciate you joining on it now.
Speaker 3: Let's just get back to the markets a little bit
Speaker 3: more broadly now, because it is a volatile day, folks,
Speaker 3: and unsurprisingly so because it's triple witching. What does that
Speaker 3: mean options expiring? It just adds that level of volatility.
Speaker 3: As we come towards the close of the week, we're
Speaker 3: up one point six percent now, and then that's that
Speaker 3: one hundred we were in negative territory to start, trade
Speaker 3: people trying to brush off some of the perhaps over movement,
Speaker 3: over reaction to the FED signaling there'll be but two cuts.
Speaker 4: Coming in twenty twenty five.
Speaker 3: Crypto, though, is still underwater ninety six thousand, well off
Speaker 3: the one hundred and eight thousand level.
Speaker 4: But boy, what a run.
Speaker 3: It has been for twenty twenty four, does it? For
Speaker 3: this edition of Bloomberg Technology, do not forget to check
Speaker 3: out our podcast finding on the terminal as well as
Speaker 3: online on.
Speaker 4: Apple, Spotify, and iHeart. We'll be back in the new year.
Speaker 4: You'll see me across other other programs. This is Bloomberg Technology.