1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:04,960 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised. 2 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 2: The key thing to know about his death is something 3 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 2: that a jurors said to me. He said, we meaning 4 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:22,880 Speaker 2: the jury, We all knew that havesinth the police, Michael 5 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:23,960 Speaker 2: Stewart would still be alive. 6 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:33,599 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 7 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:36,360 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the 8 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:40,240 Speaker 1: podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career, 9 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:44,240 Speaker 1: research for my many audio and book projects has taken 10 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:47,560 Speaker 1: me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down 11 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:52,320 Speaker 1: with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers, 12 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 1: and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true 13 00:00:56,760 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 1: crime cases. This is about the choices writers mate, both 14 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:03,480 Speaker 1: good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the 15 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 1: unpublished details behind their stories. We've had journalists Elon green 16 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:13,600 Speaker 1: On before to talk about his fantastic book Last Call. 17 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 1: His new book is about an inspiring young black artist 18 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:20,800 Speaker 1: in nineteen eighties New York. Michael Stewart ended up dead 19 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:25,160 Speaker 1: after encountering a Transit Authority police officer at a Fourteenth 20 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:29,400 Speaker 1: Street subway station. In Manhattan late one night. Witnesses say 21 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:32,839 Speaker 1: the police beat him to death, and it made national headlines. 22 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:37,040 Speaker 1: Green tells me about his book The Man Nobody Killed, Life, 23 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 1: Death and Art in Michael Stuart's New York. So, I 24 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 1: lived in New York for almost ten years, and I 25 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 1: lived in the West Village and then the East Village. 26 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:53,560 Speaker 1: So as soon as I read Union Square and the 27 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 1: subway there, I thought, oh boy, I mean, it's so 28 00:01:57,200 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 1: it's so weird when things happen that are so important, 29 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 1: you know, you don't live in that city anymore. And 30 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:03,680 Speaker 1: then all of a sudden, you're right there. Man, I 31 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 1: could just feel it. But I wasn't there in the eighties. 32 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:09,360 Speaker 1: Before we talk about Michael Stewart and what happens, why 33 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 1: don't you just tell me a little bit about that 34 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 1: time period, which sounds just harrowing. Is probably an understatement 35 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:18,360 Speaker 1: for living in certain parts of the city, and particularly 36 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 1: for being a black man in the city. 37 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:25,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, the city was coming, you know, still 38 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:29,800 Speaker 2: coming out of the fiscal crisis of the mid seventies, 39 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:34,359 Speaker 2: but you know, as a near bankruptcy. The fiscal problems 40 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:38,080 Speaker 2: spawned the possibly the most famous headline in the history 41 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 2: of tabloids forward to city drop dead. So by nineteen 42 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 2: eighty three things are still really bad. You have, you know, 43 00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 2: underfunded public works all over the place. Subways are still 44 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 2: falling apart. You know, parks are in bad shape, street 45 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:02,880 Speaker 2: lights be non existent. I mean, you know, compared to 46 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:05,520 Speaker 2: the way they were in the mid seventies, they're on 47 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 2: the upswing. But that's saying very little, quite frankly. And 48 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 2: you know, we're not that far from the period where 49 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 2: the city paused hiring police for a couple of years, 50 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:24,800 Speaker 2: which is a measure that seems unfathomable now, but it 51 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 2: does give you a sense of how bad things were. 52 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 1: Now, what were the racial tensions like in New York. 53 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 2: I mean, in some ways, I kind of think it's 54 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 2: just part and parcel, because in neighborhoods that were predominantly black, 55 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 2: they were overpoliced, and in neighborhoods that were predominantly white, 56 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 2: like parts of these village, well, it's a kind of 57 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:55,840 Speaker 2: a rough time to be a black person, you know, 58 00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 2: because you're in the minority. You're a minority in the minority, 59 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 2: and the minority and when are there not racial tensions 60 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 2: in New York City? You know, once you get out 61 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:09,600 Speaker 2: of the eighties, you get Crown Heights. Before the eighties, 62 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:15,080 Speaker 2: you know, you've got riots in Harlem. It's it's that's 63 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 2: part of New York unfortunately, and all of this is 64 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 2: certainly exacerbated I think it's fair to say by a 65 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:30,040 Speaker 2: very large and active police force who practiced broken windows, 66 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:32,920 Speaker 2: probably before broken windows was even a thing. 67 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:34,840 Speaker 1: What is broken windows? 68 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:37,359 Speaker 2: As I understand it, You know, a sort of a 69 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 2: capsule description of broken windows is the notion that you 70 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 2: can make a significant decrease in crime by cracking down 71 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:54,839 Speaker 2: on sort of petty infractions, and I guess the opposite 72 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:58,479 Speaker 2: being true. So the like the idea of, you know, 73 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:04,800 Speaker 2: if you finish fair beating or a graffiti or something 74 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:07,560 Speaker 2: like that, that will it will have a downstream effect 75 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 2: on other crimes. And seems to be a lot of 76 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 2: disagreement about the extent to which that is true, But 77 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:17,840 Speaker 2: that's the idea of believe can you do that? 78 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 1: Though, if you are an underfunded police force, under man 79 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 1: police force, I mean, aren't you just putting out the 80 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 1: biggest fires at that point in a city as large 81 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:27,800 Speaker 1: as as New York City is? 82 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:30,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's quite possible. Also that the city 83 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:33,920 Speaker 2: was not yet practicing that may have actually started under 84 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:36,920 Speaker 2: Ray Kelly. I'm not quite sure. And then the since 85 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:39,160 Speaker 2: it doesn't come up in the book, it's possible the 86 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:43,360 Speaker 2: broken windows was not a thing yet, but I mean 87 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:46,599 Speaker 2: it is true. I mean they were the city was 88 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 2: not equipped to police itself in that period. You know, 89 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 2: this was a decade before the transit police merged with 90 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:02,920 Speaker 2: the NYPD, and so you know, transit police were under 91 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 2: the auspices of the MTA. They were different from city 92 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:14,479 Speaker 2: police in that they controlled solo versus in pairs. While 93 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:18,599 Speaker 2: they made the same amount of money, they were given 94 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 2: very little respect and often very poor equipment. They had 95 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:27,960 Speaker 2: radios that often didn't work, but was told one story 96 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:33,840 Speaker 2: about how they had to share batteries basically, And so 97 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:38,600 Speaker 2: all of these these macro conditions set up a situation 98 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:43,839 Speaker 2: where you have subways that are falling apart. They're being 99 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:49,360 Speaker 2: policed by people who by virtue of how they're trained 100 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:53,680 Speaker 2: and by you know, solo patrolling of kind of hair 101 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 2: trigger personalities. Because it is a very dangerous time to 102 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 2: be doing that job. Is that the killing of Michael 103 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:08,279 Speaker 2: Stewart was not specifically inevitable, but generally. 104 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:12,040 Speaker 1: So you appeared on the show a while back for 105 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:14,560 Speaker 1: another book that is set in New York about the 106 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 1: same time right was Last Call around the same time period. 107 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:22,239 Speaker 2: About eight years later, and of course somewhat different neighborhoods, which, 108 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 2: as someone who lived in New York knows that that's 109 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 2: a different world. 110 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:30,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, but still you know, that story very much 111 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 1: was digging into the culture of policing different jurisdictions, and 112 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 1: then you know, vulnerable victims, marginalized victims in a serial 113 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 1: killer who was targeting gay men. So with this book, 114 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 1: did you have to approach it differently than you did 115 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 1: Last Call? Or did you see enough parallels where you 116 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:53,559 Speaker 1: felt like you had a good handle on at least 117 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 1: sort of the eighties and you know, how to explore 118 00:07:56,840 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 1: this in a way where you're highlighting the victim and 119 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 1: really digging into the in this case, one victim, and 120 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 1: then sort of taking that person and expanding on the issues, 121 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 1: the social issues in that time period in that city. 122 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 2: It's interesting that you put it that way, because certainly, 123 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:16,480 Speaker 2: as I was working on this book, I didn't really 124 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 2: think of Last Call at all in my head, with 125 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 2: the exception of you know, taking place in Manhattan. For 126 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 2: the most part, I saw almost no overlap. Do you 127 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:32,080 Speaker 2: have the same district attorney in Manhattan, Robert Morganhaugh, And 128 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:34,559 Speaker 2: he plays a larger role in this book than he 129 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 2: didn't Last Call by far. It was a really different world, 130 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 2: a different animal, and the way I was telling the 131 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 2: story was also much different. So the things that worked 132 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:50,720 Speaker 2: or didn't work in Last Call didn't really carry over. 133 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:54,440 Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about Michael Stewart in this case. So 134 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 1: paint a picture of who we're talking about here, because 135 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:01,440 Speaker 1: Michael becomes, you know, not just a victim and not 136 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:05,439 Speaker 1: simply somebody who people can look at and advocate for. 137 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:08,400 Speaker 1: I mean, this becomes a phenomena. And so we'll talk 138 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:10,199 Speaker 1: about that a little bit, but paint a picture of 139 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:11,280 Speaker 1: who Michael was. 140 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 2: Michael Stewart is a twenty five year old black man, 141 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 2: five foot eleven, maybe one hundred and forty pounds, soilken, wet, 142 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 2: exceedingly handsome, quiet, thoughtful. He's a part of the East 143 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 2: Village firmament, you know, certainly not at the center of it. 144 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:33,719 Speaker 2: But he worked at the Pyramid Club, which was, you know, 145 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:37,240 Speaker 2: a really important part of the art and music scene. 146 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:42,200 Speaker 2: And he was dating a woman who was also on 147 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:47,960 Speaker 2: and off dating Jean Michelle Boscia. He appeared in Madonna's 148 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:52,239 Speaker 2: first music video for the song Everybody. He was DJing. 149 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:55,880 Speaker 2: Not that long before his death. He worked a party 150 00:09:56,440 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 2: for Maripol, who was Madonna's stylist. All of which is 151 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 2: to say he had a lot in common with a 152 00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:08,080 Speaker 2: lot of people of his era and in that neighborhood, 153 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:12,720 Speaker 2: in that he was aspiring. You know, he was certainly 154 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:16,720 Speaker 2: accomplishing things to further whatever his goals in life would 155 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:19,200 Speaker 2: have been. But he certainly wasn't there yet. 156 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 1: How did he get to that spot? What was his 157 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:25,280 Speaker 1: family like and his upbringing and all of that. 158 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 2: I don't know that his upbringing had much of anything 159 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 2: to do with he. He lived in Fort Green with 160 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:38,400 Speaker 2: his mother and father and siblings. His mom was a teacher, 161 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:43,560 Speaker 2: his father worked for the Metropolitan Transit Authority, and like 162 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 2: a lot of kids who had an interest in art 163 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 2: and music and photography, he was going into the city 164 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 2: for concerts and gallery openings, and so even though he 165 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 2: lived in Brooklyn, he was spending his time in the 166 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 2: East Village. In the East Village in those years was 167 00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 2: an unbelievably small intimate place, and so I think he 168 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 2: very quickly, also by virtue of how he looked, you know, 169 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 2: found himself to the proximity of quite amazing people. 170 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:18,160 Speaker 1: Well, tell me about his art specifically, I mean, can 171 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:20,959 Speaker 1: you describe it and then tell me what its representation 172 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 1: was to him? What kind of drove him towards this 173 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:23,600 Speaker 1: kind of art? 174 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:27,960 Speaker 2: I mean, his art was not extraordinary, you know. I 175 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:30,600 Speaker 2: think there was some that seemed to be done with 176 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:35,079 Speaker 2: colored pencils, some that looked like crayon. There was also 177 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 2: some painting. His art was not distinguished. He was not 178 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 2: a phenom, not a prodigy like most people, you know, 179 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:47,520 Speaker 2: he was someone who in his early and mid twenties 180 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 2: was still trying to find his way. You know, I think, 181 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 2: like a lot of people in the East Village, his art, 182 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:56,800 Speaker 2: you know, brings to mind the people that were around him, 183 00:11:57,080 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 2: whether you know that be Bascia or Keith Harring or 184 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:06,120 Speaker 2: George Condo and all these people that were quite clearly 185 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:06,920 Speaker 2: on their way up. 186 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:14,720 Speaker 1: Did he have any interactions that you know about with NYPD, 187 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:17,679 Speaker 1: you know, before any of this starts to happen, I mean, 188 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:20,080 Speaker 1: did he have run ins? Was he ever profile that 189 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 1: you know of well. 190 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 2: On the NYPD side, I know that there had been 191 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 2: an arrest at one point, I think from marijuana possession. 192 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 2: I don't know a great deal about that. It came 193 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:36,440 Speaker 2: out during the trial. And then as far as transit police. 194 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:41,840 Speaker 2: In an interview, one of his coworkers at the Pyramid 195 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:44,440 Speaker 2: talked about how whenever they would be on the subway, 196 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 2: the transit police would inevitably be sitting next to him 197 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 2: and not to her, a white woman. But that did 198 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:57,080 Speaker 2: not ever escalate into something beyond, you know, casual harassment. 199 00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:01,680 Speaker 1: Well, tell me what happens on September fifteen, nineteen eighty three, 200 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:03,840 Speaker 1: or do we need to go back a few days. 201 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:05,560 Speaker 1: Just start where you think you need to start. 202 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 2: You know, September fifteenth, nineteen eighty three. You know, he 203 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 2: had begun the night at the Pyramid Club. He'd ended 204 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 2: up there just because he had biked into the city 205 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 2: spend some time with his on again, off again girlfriend. 206 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:25,840 Speaker 2: He was unemployed at that point. He had been fired 207 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:28,199 Speaker 2: by the Pyramid I think a couple of months before 208 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 2: for not being aggressive enough. So he ends up at 209 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 2: the Pyramid and a little after midnight calls a woman 210 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:38,440 Speaker 2: named Patricia who he had met once before, but I 211 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 2: think they had kind of clicked, and so she shows up, oh, 212 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:48,080 Speaker 2: I think around twelve thirty, and they spend time downstairs 213 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:51,600 Speaker 2: at the pyramid, sharing the drink, and then they leave 214 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:56,599 Speaker 2: and decide to walk a bit. They share a cigarette 215 00:13:56,600 --> 00:14:00,679 Speaker 2: on a stoop in the village, and she she has 216 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:03,200 Speaker 2: to get home, and he decides he has to get home. 217 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:06,440 Speaker 2: And I believe she lived in Manhattan, and of course 218 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:10,440 Speaker 2: he lived in Brooklyn. So they piled into a cab 219 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:15,199 Speaker 2: and she drops him off at the first Avenue fourteenth 220 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:21,200 Speaker 2: Street subway. They exchange a kiss and he says, I'll 221 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 2: talk to you tomorrow, and he walks down the subway steps, 222 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:29,840 Speaker 2: and that's the last time that she ever sees him conscious. 223 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 1: What would that particular subway, or maybe any subways in 224 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:38,280 Speaker 1: TA what would that have been like at that time? Midnight? 225 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 1: Want to happen at night? What would that be like? 226 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 1: Would that be a dangerous space to be in for anybody? 227 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:46,440 Speaker 1: Or was it relatively safe? Do you think? 228 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 2: I'm not really sure how to answer that, because I 229 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 2: don't think spaces in New York tend to be inherently 230 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:58,880 Speaker 2: safe or unsafe. It always depends on who you are. 231 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 2: Doesn't it. I lived in Brooklyn Queen's for a dozen years, 232 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 2: and not once did I ever feel on sight didn't 233 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 2: matter where I was, because everywhere you go, it's just people, right, 234 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:15,080 Speaker 2: And so no, I don't think there was anything particularly 235 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:19,480 Speaker 2: dangerous or risky about the fourteenth Street First Avenue subway. 236 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:24,080 Speaker 2: It was certainly, you know, filthy, like every other subway 237 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 2: station in those years. I got the sense that it was, 238 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 2: you know, pretty unpopulated, due mostly to a lack of 239 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 2: other accounts of people seeing him when he was down there. 240 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 2: You know, the only person he would run into that 241 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 2: night was John Caustick, a young transit officer who had 242 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 2: just come on shift and had come down the subway 243 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 2: steps and, according to him, saw Michael deface the subway 244 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:55,120 Speaker 2: wall with a magic marker. 245 00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 1: Well, let me ask real quick, just a couple of 246 00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 1: sort of functional things. One cameras or the cameras at 247 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 1: this time period in the subway. 248 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 2: If there are I have not heard about it, I'm. 249 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:07,200 Speaker 1: Assuming no token takers are no? 250 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:11,600 Speaker 2: Yes? And yes, in fact, there was one on duty 251 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:15,920 Speaker 2: on the what they call the mezzanine level, so below ground, 252 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 2: not at the train level. 253 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:22,880 Speaker 1: So is this happening before the turnstiles or past the 254 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 1: turnstiles where he's got this magic marker out allegedly according 255 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:27,520 Speaker 1: to the police. 256 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 2: Yes, this has past the turnstiles on the train platform presumably. 257 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:36,400 Speaker 2: I know I sounded a little speculative and hedging about this, 258 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:39,840 Speaker 2: but that's because I've never seen evidence that it actually happened. 259 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 2: And so Officer Caustic arrests him and takes him up 260 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:50,720 Speaker 2: to the mezzanine level by the token clerk, and depending 261 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 2: on who you ask, he either sprints up the stairs 262 00:16:56,200 --> 00:17:02,360 Speaker 2: or walks very fast, but either way, John Caustic eventually, 263 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 2: you know, catches up with Michael and he has called 264 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:11,239 Speaker 2: I believe it was called ten thirteen, which is, you know, 265 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:17,120 Speaker 2: just a call for assistance, and soon enough other transit 266 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:22,000 Speaker 2: police from District four, which was the precinct in the 267 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 2: northwest corner of Union Square, show up and the plan 268 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:32,399 Speaker 2: was to take Michael to the district and book him for, 269 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:37,200 Speaker 2: among other things, essentially graffiti. But what ends up happening, 270 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 2: and again this is a little speculative because Michael was 271 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:44,040 Speaker 2: not around to testify to it. One way or the other. 272 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 2: It is said that he kicked a seat, you know, 273 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:52,439 Speaker 2: essentially tried to get away, and they get to the precinct. 274 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:56,719 Speaker 2: They park right around the subway entrance, and when they 275 00:17:56,760 --> 00:17:59,879 Speaker 2: get Michael out, he makes a run for it. He 276 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:04,480 Speaker 2: runs into one of the transit officers, or might be 277 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:10,440 Speaker 2: an Emergency Services unit officer, and very quickly there are 278 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:15,880 Speaker 2: eleven transit police surrounding him, all white, because some come 279 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:18,359 Speaker 2: up from the precinct to join the ones that are 280 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:23,400 Speaker 2: already there, and they decide that they have to subdue him, 281 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 2: and so, in full view of dozens of freshmen at 282 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:33,680 Speaker 2: the Parsons School of Design who are either awake or 283 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:38,520 Speaker 2: about to be awake, they kick him, hit him, beat 284 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:41,920 Speaker 2: him with a night stick, and it's not really clear 285 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:48,240 Speaker 2: how long the assault goes on, but eventually they use 286 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:53,320 Speaker 2: what is essentially fixed saran rap I guess gause to 287 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:57,960 Speaker 2: bind his legs so that you know, he would stop kicking. 288 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:00,840 Speaker 2: I suppose. Then they would handcuff him behind his back, 289 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:05,320 Speaker 2: and then he was hogtied, which was illegal. He was 290 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 2: carried over to an Emergency Services vehicle and essentially swung 291 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:14,760 Speaker 2: into the trunk, as one of the witnesses said to me, 292 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:18,920 Speaker 2: like a bag of mulch. He is next deposited at 293 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:23,080 Speaker 2: Bellevue the middle of the night, and the doctors managed 294 00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 2: to resuscitate his heart because he was not breathing, but 295 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 2: he's comatose and over the next thirteen days never agained 296 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:40,160 Speaker 2: consciousness and dies September twenty eighth, nineteen eighty three. 297 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 1: Now I had remembered that there was also talk of 298 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:48,119 Speaker 1: maybe he was either restrained or choked with what a 299 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:50,920 Speaker 1: billy club or something like that, so that was also there. 300 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:53,399 Speaker 1: What was the determined cause of death when it was 301 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:54,400 Speaker 1: all said and done. 302 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 2: The problem with determining cause of death is that he 303 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 2: died is after being in a coma for nearly two weeks, right, 304 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 2: and so the body does not look as it did 305 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 2: in the immediate aftermath of the beating. 306 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:14,680 Speaker 1: So it's trauma basically. I mean, that's enough. 307 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 2: I think, yeah, I mean, it's you know, some a 308 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:21,440 Speaker 2: number of a number of factors. But I think the 309 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:24,719 Speaker 2: key thing to know about his death is something that 310 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:29,320 Speaker 2: a juror said to me. He said, we meaning the jury, 311 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 2: we all knew that absence the police, Michael Stewart would 312 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:33,359 Speaker 2: still be alive. 313 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:36,399 Speaker 1: And the reason I asked Elon about the cause of 314 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:39,480 Speaker 1: death is, you know, I've dealt with especially in history, 315 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 1: but so many cases where you have this sort of 316 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:45,760 Speaker 1: group of people involved in a murder, and it's so 317 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:48,679 Speaker 1: important to determine what the cause of death was to 318 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:50,679 Speaker 1: be able to nail down one of them and everybody 319 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:54,360 Speaker 1: else's accessories or whatever, secondary or manslaughter. So that's why 320 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:56,200 Speaker 1: I was asking. But I don't know if it matters. 321 00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 1: I was just curious. 322 00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 2: Certainly it mattered at the time only because it was 323 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:05,480 Speaker 2: necessary to determine a cause of death to help the 324 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:10,400 Speaker 2: district attorney's investigators investigate the case, you know, and cause 325 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:16,120 Speaker 2: of death mattered ultimately in how the criminal trial ended up. 326 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 2: But the trauma was the trauma, and it was considerable. 327 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:24,439 Speaker 2: And as you say, you know it was a combination 328 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:29,879 Speaker 2: of kicks and billy clubs. You know, there was at 329 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 2: least one or two reports that the night stick was 330 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 2: held to Michael's neck. You had people sitting on his 331 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:43,080 Speaker 2: back to restrain him. You know, this was a young, 332 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:49,200 Speaker 2: thin man, unarmed who just endured horrific trauma. 333 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:52,439 Speaker 1: So what we can confirm and tell me if this 334 00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 1: is right or not, is that he made it down 335 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:57,040 Speaker 1: the stairs of the subway. Pictures just said goodbye to him. 336 00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:00,880 Speaker 1: He goes downstairs. He pays, it's a token in He's 337 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 1: not hopping the turnstall or anything like that. 338 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 2: Actually, okay, there was a report that he had beaten 339 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:12,720 Speaker 2: the fair, but again, what else. 340 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 1: So maybe maybe not. He gets down there and sort 341 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:18,160 Speaker 1: of vanishes out of the token taker's point of view, 342 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:22,920 Speaker 1: and then next thing the token taker knows is that 343 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:26,920 Speaker 1: he's walking quickly up the stairs. Michael is right with 344 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:31,399 Speaker 1: a transit cop with John Caustick in pursuit, and that's it. 345 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:34,320 Speaker 1: And I'm assuming Caustic said he was, you know, haul 346 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:36,280 Speaker 1: an ass up the stairs to get away from. 347 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:39,120 Speaker 2: Me, right, And I didn't mention before, But of course 348 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:44,440 Speaker 2: there's a witness to what happens just after he gets 349 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:47,240 Speaker 2: to the top of the stairs. It's a man named 350 00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:52,720 Speaker 2: Robert Rodriguez. He's an auxiliary police officer who works at Blimpy, 351 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:57,119 Speaker 2: the sandwich shop by fourteenth Street, First Avenue. He has 352 00:22:57,119 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 2: spends to be on shift, but he was looking out 353 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:03,399 Speaker 2: the and and the next day he files a police 354 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 2: report and says, you know, I saw this man, you know, 355 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:11,679 Speaker 2: led out of the subway and assaulted. And to my knowledge, 356 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 2: he is the only person at ground level who witnesses 357 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:22,480 Speaker 2: abuse because the students in the freshman dorm, the closest 358 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:25,720 Speaker 2: anyone in that dorm was to the street was the 359 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:29,840 Speaker 2: fourth floor, which is the level at which the dorm began. 360 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:33,200 Speaker 1: Do their stories line up Roberts and the freshman from 361 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:34,800 Speaker 1: what the freshman could see. 362 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:41,280 Speaker 2: They essentially are attesting to two different parts of the incident. 363 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 2: It's my impression that the students do not see him 364 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:48,720 Speaker 2: when he is first led up, because they only realize 365 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:53,199 Speaker 2: something is going on downstairs when they start to hear screams. 366 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:57,000 Speaker 2: So there's a lag and then there's all you know. 367 00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:59,120 Speaker 2: Of course, there's also a lag between when they first 368 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:01,679 Speaker 2: start to hear screams and when they go over the window, 369 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:05,320 Speaker 2: because just hearing a scream doesn't really mean anything in 370 00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:09,720 Speaker 2: New York in nineteen eighty three. So by the time 371 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:14,800 Speaker 2: they see him is directly below the near District four. 372 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 1: So we get to the hospital. He spends thirteen days 373 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:22,159 Speaker 1: at the hospital in a coma, and then he dies. 374 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:25,399 Speaker 1: Do you know, based on your reporting, did you have 375 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:27,679 Speaker 1: a lot of kind of insider knowledge about what was 376 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:32,959 Speaker 1: happening at Precinct four during these thirteen days or what 377 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:35,800 Speaker 1: were your sources like on the NYPD side. 378 00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:37,520 Speaker 2: Well not NYPD Transit. 379 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:38,399 Speaker 1: Police, Transit police. 380 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:42,600 Speaker 2: Sorry, I mean they very quickly lawyer up, you know, 381 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:46,560 Speaker 2: because the police union gets involved as soon as they 382 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 2: get wind of it, and they hire Barrio Golnik, who 383 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 2: was sort of the premier defense lawyer for police at 384 00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:57,880 Speaker 2: that point. There's not a great deal probably going on 385 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:00,359 Speaker 2: for most of those thirteen days. The important thing that 386 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:05,360 Speaker 2: happens is that the police are left alone for several 387 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:09,119 Speaker 2: hours in the immediate aftermath of the event, and nobody 388 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 2: is taking their statements because internal affairs refuse to get involved, 389 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:19,879 Speaker 2: you know, refuses to get involved even though by statute 390 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:23,840 Speaker 2: they had to. And then the police are not separated. 391 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:26,040 Speaker 2: I could find no evidence that that was the case, 392 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:30,600 Speaker 2: and their statements are not taken till about ten thirty, 393 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:36,080 Speaker 2: I think, when two ada's from Morgenthal's office show up 394 00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:37,720 Speaker 2: to start interviewing them. 395 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:42,680 Speaker 1: Now, what was the relationship between the District Attorney's office 396 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:47,520 Speaker 1: Morgenthal with the police, transit NYPD, anybody, I mean, is 397 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:50,840 Speaker 1: there a contentious relationship between them? Do we have a 398 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:54,639 Speaker 1: lot of police being arrested for you know, being overly 399 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:58,560 Speaker 1: zellous or abusive with potential suspects and where are we 400 00:25:58,640 --> 00:25:58,919 Speaker 1: with that? 401 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:02,080 Speaker 2: Not a lot of those cases. And I don't think 402 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:06,040 Speaker 2: that their relationship between the NYPD and the Transit Police 403 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 2: and Morgenthal's office was particularly contentious. I believe Morgenthal was 404 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:15,919 Speaker 2: even president of it was the Police Athletic League something 405 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:21,240 Speaker 2: like that. You know, he prosecuted police occasionally, you know, 406 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:26,760 Speaker 2: generally for corruption. There was a separation between his office 407 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:30,000 Speaker 2: and the police because he did not use NYPD to 408 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:35,360 Speaker 2: conduct investigations. He had his own team of investigators who 409 00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:40,040 Speaker 2: answered to him. And you know, especially in a case 410 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:44,480 Speaker 2: where police are involved as perpetrators, as as one of 411 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:47,239 Speaker 2: his ADAS said to me, you know, nobody was going 412 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:50,000 Speaker 2: to trust the cops. You know, they were not going 413 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:52,879 Speaker 2: to use the police to investigate the police. Even to 414 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:56,879 Speaker 2: be investigated for something like this and then ultimately to 415 00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:00,159 Speaker 2: be charged was a real shock to the system for 416 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:04,840 Speaker 2: police in general. You know, they were furious that this 417 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:08,359 Speaker 2: was happening at all because it was not something that 418 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:09,159 Speaker 2: they were used to. 419 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:13,760 Speaker 1: So we have two adas from Morganenthal's office come down. 420 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:15,439 Speaker 1: This is about what ten hours or. 421 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:18,440 Speaker 2: So, after about seven hours, seven eight hours. 422 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:23,199 Speaker 1: About seven eight hours after Michael's murder. They come and 423 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:29,120 Speaker 1: they interview How many total officers are being looked at 424 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 1: here from that incident? 425 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 2: Well, I suspect in that initial round they probably talked 426 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:38,960 Speaker 2: to at least Paul eleven that had been above ground 427 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:43,800 Speaker 2: surrounding Michael, But I can't vouch for that for certain. 428 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:47,280 Speaker 2: There's no real record of, you know, what was said. 429 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:53,439 Speaker 2: And when I interviewed the only living ada of the 430 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:57,080 Speaker 2: pair years later, he didn't remember all that much of it. 431 00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:02,080 Speaker 2: My guess is that they said almost nothing because I'm 432 00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:05,680 Speaker 2: sure that they're a union Rep. Peter Marsala told him 433 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:06,480 Speaker 2: to shut the hell up. 434 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:09,960 Speaker 1: Okay, So then what happens next? You have the transit 435 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:13,960 Speaker 1: police probably not cooperating. When does Morgenthal think there needs 436 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:17,040 Speaker 1: to be some charges or at least more investigation. Why 437 00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 1: is this not brushed under the rug like I'm assuming 438 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 1: other incidents have been. 439 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:25,359 Speaker 2: Takes a little while, and it doesn't get brushed under 440 00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:31,320 Speaker 2: the rug because civil rights leaders, clergy members of the 441 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:36,240 Speaker 2: East village make a huge think about it, and there 442 00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:42,240 Speaker 2: are protests in Union Square, at the District Attorney's office, 443 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:46,520 Speaker 2: at the medical Examiner's office, you name it, and sooner 444 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:50,160 Speaker 2: than later charges are not laid. But they a grand 445 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:53,520 Speaker 2: jury is impatent, which you know is the first step 446 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:54,600 Speaker 2: in doing that. 447 00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:57,840 Speaker 1: This is public pressure. But where does it come from. 448 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:01,240 Speaker 1: Is it because of his status as an artist, because 449 00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 1: you know, as we've said before, you're speculating this has happened. 450 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:07,960 Speaker 1: Why is this an outrage not coming out for other victims. 451 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:12,200 Speaker 2: I think it happens in the case of Michael Stewart 452 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:18,160 Speaker 2: because in so far as there is such a thing 453 00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:22,200 Speaker 2: as a perfect victim, he is a perfect victim. You know, 454 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:25,920 Speaker 2: aside from the aesthetics, he's good looking, he's not armed 455 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,400 Speaker 2: with anything worse than like a marker or a spray 456 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,640 Speaker 2: you know, can of spray paint. And so many cops 457 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:36,719 Speaker 2: have surrounded him. The infraction is so banal that it 458 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:39,880 Speaker 2: catches people's attention in a way that I think other 459 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:45,160 Speaker 2: cases did not. But you know, the people around Michael 460 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:49,560 Speaker 2: also were savvy and how they were talking about him. 461 00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:53,440 Speaker 2: They did not describe him as like a bar back 462 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:58,640 Speaker 2: at the Pyramid Club. They made sure to emphasize that 463 00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:01,360 Speaker 2: this was a you know, a young man of potential 464 00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:04,800 Speaker 2: who wanted to be a painter or a model or 465 00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:09,280 Speaker 2: a DJ. And it was in some ways a very 466 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:13,280 Speaker 2: easy case to be attracted to if you were writing 467 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:18,000 Speaker 2: for the tabloids, you know, especially once Gabe Pressman, you know, 468 00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:21,400 Speaker 2: the first TV news journalist, got win to the case 469 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:24,600 Speaker 2: and became obsessed with it. You know, once Pressman started 470 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:28,880 Speaker 2: covering it and he was obsessed, all the other reporters 471 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:31,080 Speaker 2: in the city on that beat followed suit. 472 00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:34,400 Speaker 1: You have written, I think quite a bit about why 473 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:38,240 Speaker 1: true crime creators pick the stories that they pick. And 474 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:41,480 Speaker 1: you know, you have an article that I highly recommend 475 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 1: people reading because it's great with the appeal called the Enduring, 476 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:48,840 Speaker 1: pernicious Whiteness of True Crime. And you know, I think 477 00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:53,959 Speaker 1: that that certainly spills over into all different categories, not 478 00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:56,320 Speaker 1: just people of color. But you know, this is a 479 00:30:56,360 --> 00:31:01,960 Speaker 1: different situation. Do you think it's that Michael's image reflects 480 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:06,120 Speaker 1: kind of the every person in society that is not 481 00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:09,520 Speaker 1: quote unquote in a high risk lifestyle, which I hate. 482 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:12,240 Speaker 1: That phrase really irritates me. I mean, it's just so 483 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:15,960 Speaker 1: it's like that phrase high risk lifestyle is laden with 484 00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:19,200 Speaker 1: judgment and like you should have known kind of That's 485 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:21,480 Speaker 1: the way I feel. So when listeners, when you guys 486 00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 1: hear me react like that, that's what it's behind it's 487 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 1: just like an accusation in a way, you know. So 488 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:29,040 Speaker 1: do you think because Michael was sort of, you know, 489 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:32,520 Speaker 1: this aspiring artist and you know, he hopnobbed with people, 490 00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:34,120 Speaker 1: and he was good looking, do you think that that 491 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:37,160 Speaker 1: reflects on the people who are interested in the story 492 00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:38,240 Speaker 1: they think it could be me. 493 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:43,480 Speaker 2: Yes, I mean, and certainly I think that there was 494 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:47,720 Speaker 2: that aspect to it among black New Yorkers because again, 495 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:52,680 Speaker 2: he's not armed, he's done nothing to incur the wrath 496 00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:58,240 Speaker 2: of eleven police officers. Now, you couldn't not sort of 497 00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:01,760 Speaker 2: underestimate how important so that the East village got involved 498 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:03,840 Speaker 2: with this. And the reason that they got involved and 499 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:07,200 Speaker 2: never really had before, was that they knew Michael. You know, 500 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:11,440 Speaker 2: it was really all about proximity. They cared because they knew. 501 00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 2: So I think you had all of these all of 502 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 2: these factors that, when combined, meant that people just cared 503 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:23,880 Speaker 2: more about this particular case of police brutality than anything 504 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 2: that had come before it. And one more thing, one 505 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:31,960 Speaker 2: of those coincidences of history, there are the first ever 506 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:37,280 Speaker 2: hearings on congressional hearings on police brutality going on in 507 00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:40,160 Speaker 2: the city. As all of this is unfolded. It was 508 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:43,760 Speaker 2: sparked by a year's worth of I think a year's 509 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:48,800 Speaker 2: worth of police brutality cases that were finally enough for 510 00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 2: John Conyers to say, Okay, we're going to panel witnesses 511 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:59,560 Speaker 2: and hold hearings in Harlem. And it just so happened 512 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:01,520 Speaker 2: that this was going on at the same time. 513 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:04,600 Speaker 1: And this happened I don't know the exact time, but 514 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:09,040 Speaker 1: within twelve or thirteen years earlier than Rodney King, which 515 00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:12,240 Speaker 1: I imagine is probably is that the next biggest high 516 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:13,920 Speaker 1: profile case like this. 517 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:18,320 Speaker 2: I actually think that it's because of Rodney King that 518 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:24,120 Speaker 2: people generally don't remember Michael Stewart. Okay, because why do 519 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:28,640 Speaker 2: people remember Rodney King. It's not because of what he did. 520 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:31,960 Speaker 2: It's not even the specifics of what the police did. 521 00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:33,040 Speaker 2: Said it was filmed. 522 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:39,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, there are indictments, and tell me what happens next. 523 00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:43,440 Speaker 1: I'm assuming that the transit police are not just on 524 00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:45,680 Speaker 1: the defensive. They must be going on the offensive with 525 00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:48,800 Speaker 1: you know, you said there's a pretty high profile defense 526 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:53,080 Speaker 1: attorney there. How many officers are ultimately indicted in this. 527 00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:59,240 Speaker 2: You know, eventually six officers are charged, you know, three 528 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:04,000 Speaker 2: I believe is the second degree manslaughter all six or 529 00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:08,880 Speaker 2: charge of perjury and these are not terribly severe charges 530 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:13,560 Speaker 2: given the damage ton to Michael Stewart, but they're about 531 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:16,399 Speaker 2: the best I think that the district attorney could do, 532 00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:24,480 Speaker 2: given that no witness could say that any single transit 533 00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:27,319 Speaker 2: officer committed a specific act. 534 00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:29,239 Speaker 1: Okay, is John Caustick in there? 535 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:30,800 Speaker 2: He is John Costick? 536 00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:33,920 Speaker 1: Was his for perjury or was his for actually participating 537 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:34,600 Speaker 1: in the assaults? 538 00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:36,480 Speaker 2: Both manslaughter and perjury? 539 00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:39,000 Speaker 1: So tell me what happens next. There are these charges, 540 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:43,080 Speaker 1: and there's ultimately six of them. What is the reaction 541 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:48,240 Speaker 1: of this advocacy group that has taken up the case. 542 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:51,120 Speaker 1: Do they think this is ridiculous and these obviously these 543 00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:54,520 Speaker 1: charges should be heavier or are there more protests? 544 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:57,480 Speaker 2: Well, I mean it isn't really even so much, you know, 545 00:34:57,520 --> 00:34:59,879 Speaker 2: an advocacy group. It's really a. 546 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:01,520 Speaker 1: The movement almost. 547 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:05,839 Speaker 2: Yeah. There's all sorts of people, you know, Like I said, 548 00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:09,880 Speaker 2: you have civil rights leaders and clergy, but you also artists. 549 00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:13,799 Speaker 2: You have the Michael Stewart Friends Committee, which is made 550 00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:18,640 Speaker 2: up of people in the village and filmmakers. Basically everybody, 551 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:22,360 Speaker 2: with the exception of people on the side of the police. 552 00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:26,040 Speaker 2: Agrees that these charges are weak. 553 00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:28,600 Speaker 1: So then what is the next step once we have 554 00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:29,799 Speaker 1: these indictments. 555 00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:38,640 Speaker 2: Well, eventually it goes to trial and dozens of students testify. 556 00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:42,680 Speaker 2: They're now at that point by then, I think they're juniors. 557 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:46,560 Speaker 2: They no longer live in the dorms in Union Square. 558 00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:51,920 Speaker 2: The police choose not to testify, but in what ends 559 00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:57,279 Speaker 2: up being a very significant decision, the prosecution as their 560 00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:01,560 Speaker 2: grand jury testimony read to the jury. The reason that 561 00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:06,080 Speaker 2: this happens is because it was one of the only ways, 562 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:11,000 Speaker 2: if not the only way, for the prosecution to establish 563 00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:15,279 Speaker 2: that the police were actually there. But it ends up 564 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:19,440 Speaker 2: being a really double edged sword because the jury, while 565 00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:22,960 Speaker 2: hearing that the police are present for the beating of 566 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:27,319 Speaker 2: Michael Stewart, here's in the voice of the police testimony 567 00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:28,680 Speaker 2: that they did not do it. 568 00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:32,000 Speaker 1: So what is that? What are they saying exactly? Are 569 00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:35,359 Speaker 1: they saying that not one person everybody's denying that they 570 00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:37,520 Speaker 1: were the ones who were inflicting the kicks and the 571 00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:40,600 Speaker 1: beatings and everything else, or are they just saying, listen, 572 00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:43,000 Speaker 1: you know, we don't really want to know what happened. 573 00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:44,759 Speaker 1: We just know this was a dangerous guy. He was 574 00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:47,839 Speaker 1: fighting against us, and we subdued him the way we 575 00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:49,200 Speaker 1: were trained to subdue someone. 576 00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:56,520 Speaker 2: Basically, they testify to everything that happens right up to 577 00:36:56,600 --> 00:37:01,120 Speaker 2: the point where they're outside of the priests and under 578 00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:06,200 Speaker 2: the freshman dorm beating and kicking him. So the jury 579 00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:12,080 Speaker 2: hears testimony that no police officer hit Michael, kicked Michael, 580 00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:15,360 Speaker 2: or choked him with a night stick. That's the takeaway. 581 00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:18,799 Speaker 2: They say, we were there, but we did not do 582 00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:19,560 Speaker 2: any of those. 583 00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:23,120 Speaker 1: Well, what's the explanation for what happened to him? 584 00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:23,359 Speaker 2: Then? 585 00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:25,440 Speaker 1: When they have all these witnesses. 586 00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:30,319 Speaker 2: Essentially that he fell of his own volition and you know, 587 00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:36,560 Speaker 2: his heart stops because of essentially alcohol induced in excitement. 588 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:38,680 Speaker 1: And they did toxicology on him and everything. What did 589 00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:39,960 Speaker 1: they find in his system? 590 00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:43,759 Speaker 2: You know, I believe his alcohol level was I think 591 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:47,120 Speaker 2: point two two, you know, about double the legal limit, 592 00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:50,680 Speaker 2: and so you know, he did have alcohol in his system, 593 00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:55,960 Speaker 2: but that was not nearly high enough for someone like 594 00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:59,160 Speaker 2: him to you know, essentially suffer a heart attack. 595 00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:03,320 Speaker 1: We would think any medical examiner or pathologists who a corner, 596 00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:06,279 Speaker 1: any of these people would be able to identify a 597 00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:09,240 Speaker 1: fall against a curb, even several falls against a Kurber 598 00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:12,120 Speaker 1: on the ground versus the kicks, those marks would be 599 00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:15,480 Speaker 1: pretty distinct, especially on his neck. So what's the explanation 600 00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:17,600 Speaker 1: for that? I mean, really, what is the explanation for that? 601 00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:21,080 Speaker 1: I hope did the ada's really nail this down or Morgenthal? 602 00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:23,319 Speaker 1: Is that trial or is that the grand jury where 603 00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:24,279 Speaker 1: they really talk about that. 604 00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:27,760 Speaker 2: Well, the chief Medical Examiner of New York, Eliot Gross, 605 00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:31,640 Speaker 2: ends up changing his mind on cause of death between 606 00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:35,520 Speaker 2: his testimony to the grand jury and when he eventually 607 00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:38,480 Speaker 2: testifies at the criminal trial. You know, this is one 608 00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:41,920 Speaker 2: of the major reasons why ultimately the police are acquitted 609 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:46,920 Speaker 2: because you know, as John Caustics lawyer tells the jury, 610 00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:49,799 Speaker 2: you have a multiple choice cause of death, so you 611 00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:50,480 Speaker 2: can't convict. 612 00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:53,279 Speaker 1: So they're all acquitted, these six guys. 613 00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:54,239 Speaker 2: Five guys and one woman. 614 00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:56,960 Speaker 1: And then what's the reaction in the media. Well, I 615 00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:59,120 Speaker 1: haven't asked about the media at all. What has been 616 00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:01,040 Speaker 1: the reaction of the media at this point. 617 00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:04,960 Speaker 2: It's interesting to revisit the coverage of the Michael Stewart 618 00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:11,360 Speaker 2: case because it's really good. It's not at all what 619 00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:16,960 Speaker 2: you would expect tabloid's story of the early eighties to be. 620 00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:22,719 Speaker 2: I think that's purely an accident, because the people who 621 00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:27,600 Speaker 2: covered this case, aside from Gabe Pressman with Jimmy Breslin, 622 00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:33,640 Speaker 2: Murray Kempton, Leonard Levitt, who's a very underrated tabloid reporter, 623 00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:37,280 Speaker 2: often wrote about police, and then once it went to trial, 624 00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:40,920 Speaker 2: you had a young New York Times reporter named Isabelle Wilkerson. 625 00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:44,879 Speaker 2: So you had some of the great journalists of their 626 00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:47,680 Speaker 2: era that just happened to be writing about this case 627 00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:51,239 Speaker 2: and doing extraordinary journalism. 628 00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:53,880 Speaker 1: Did any of the journalists in eighty three or I 629 00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:55,560 Speaker 1: guess this is eighty five at this point, is that 630 00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:57,640 Speaker 1: when that's how okay? So to any of the journalists 631 00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:01,760 Speaker 1: in New York in eighty five dig up anything against 632 00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:05,120 Speaker 1: the police, or did anybody have any any good enterprise 633 00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:07,560 Speaker 1: journalism happening where it was sort of a gotcha? 634 00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:13,040 Speaker 2: The best scoop on that front was actually from Newsday's 635 00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:19,040 Speaker 2: transit columnist, Elis Henniken was his name, and he got 636 00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:24,719 Speaker 2: a hold of John Caustick's psychological report from when he 637 00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:28,720 Speaker 2: applied to be a city officer because he had originally 638 00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:33,319 Speaker 2: wanted to be on the NYPD and he failed the 639 00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:36,839 Speaker 2: psychological exam and Ellis Henniken got a hold of it 640 00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:38,759 Speaker 2: and ran a story. 641 00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:41,400 Speaker 1: And he passed the one for the transit police. 642 00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:44,520 Speaker 2: Yes, they just administered a different test and he passed. 643 00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:47,239 Speaker 1: I'm assuming there's no markings on the walls or what 644 00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:49,480 Speaker 1: happens when they go look. I know that that's a 645 00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:52,480 Speaker 1: moot point, but you know, the establishing the credibility of 646 00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:55,080 Speaker 1: cost it. Is there a marker anywhere? Was there marker 647 00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:56,279 Speaker 1: on him anywhere? 648 00:40:56,440 --> 00:40:57,239 Speaker 2: Not that I'm aware of. 649 00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:00,200 Speaker 1: No, So these guys get acquitted. Is their outrage again. 650 00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:04,399 Speaker 2: Yes, but it's pretty brief. I mean, I think that 651 00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:10,200 Speaker 2: the acquittal of these police it was both expected but 652 00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:14,239 Speaker 2: also incredibly demoralizing, you know, and I'm sure it was 653 00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:17,480 Speaker 2: made worse by the fact that the jury deliberated. I 654 00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:20,719 Speaker 2: think for five days people probably thought there was a 655 00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:23,600 Speaker 2: real chance that these guys were actually going to be convicted, 656 00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:28,359 Speaker 2: and for them to be sent home was devastating. You know. 657 00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:32,600 Speaker 2: When the verdicts were announced and the police's side of 658 00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:37,520 Speaker 2: the courtroom erupted, you know, Michael's mother looked over and said, 659 00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:39,920 Speaker 2: I'm just going to let them enjoy this. You know, 660 00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:42,799 Speaker 2: I think it was it was almost a foregone conclusion. 661 00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:45,880 Speaker 2: I mean, they were being prepared for it. You know, 662 00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:50,319 Speaker 2: this is nineteen eighty three. It's still extremely hard to 663 00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:52,799 Speaker 2: get a convinctioned. I mean, it's very hard to even 664 00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:58,480 Speaker 2: get indictments, much less a conviction these days. So imagine 665 00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:01,480 Speaker 2: this happening in nineteen eighty three, when I didn't talk 666 00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:05,960 Speaker 2: to a single witness to the beating that before that 667 00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:10,480 Speaker 2: night had a remotely critical feelings about police. 668 00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:13,680 Speaker 1: Now, you know, I think with these kinds of stories, 669 00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:17,840 Speaker 1: you have the victim either totally forgotten because you know, 670 00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:21,880 Speaker 1: people are focusing on the killers or whoever you know, 671 00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:26,760 Speaker 1: or the themes behind it. But then hopefully you're able 672 00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:29,839 Speaker 1: to circle back to Michael and think about, you know, 673 00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:33,560 Speaker 1: why one young man moved so many people, and it 674 00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:37,520 Speaker 1: obviously comes down to relationships and the circumstances. I know, 675 00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:40,040 Speaker 1: do you think when it's all said and done. I know, 676 00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:42,640 Speaker 1: we're saying that he's you know, been forgotten sort of 677 00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:46,719 Speaker 1: in history as a significant figure in things like this 678 00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:49,920 Speaker 1: happening because partially because of Rodney King. But do you 679 00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:53,680 Speaker 1: think that that Michael has had a sufficient legacy or 680 00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:57,680 Speaker 1: remembrance here considering everything that's happened, or you know, I 681 00:42:57,680 --> 00:42:59,400 Speaker 1: mean I don't know how his mother felt about that. 682 00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:03,680 Speaker 2: Well, well, I think, as with any of these cases, 683 00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:09,320 Speaker 2: it's it's kind of a passive legacy. Rodney King's legacy 684 00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:12,879 Speaker 2: is not because of who he is. It's because of 685 00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:16,480 Speaker 2: the things that were happening around him, in the same 686 00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:21,520 Speaker 2: way with emmittt Till. And you know, to me, when 687 00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:24,080 Speaker 2: I think about the legacy of the Michael Stewart case, 688 00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:27,879 Speaker 2: on the one hand, shore you could say that there's 689 00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:31,000 Speaker 2: an artistic legacy you would do the right thing and 690 00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:36,720 Speaker 2: defacement and at Tony Morrison play and maybe you can 691 00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:40,920 Speaker 2: say that you can draw something of a line between 692 00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:46,080 Speaker 2: the Michael Stewart prosecution and the George Floyd case. And 693 00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:49,719 Speaker 2: you know, the charges against Derek Chauvin, you know, part 694 00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:52,959 Speaker 2: one of the charges was, you know, essentially the same 695 00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:55,920 Speaker 2: as in the Stewart case. You're being charged for not 696 00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:59,320 Speaker 2: doing the job you were supposed to do defending the prisoner. 697 00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:03,920 Speaker 2: But in my most cynical moments, which is most of 698 00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:07,800 Speaker 2: the time, I think about something that the defense attorney, 699 00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:09,680 Speaker 2: Ron Koby said to me when I asked him what 700 00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:13,000 Speaker 2: the legacy the case was, and he said that the 701 00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:16,800 Speaker 2: Stuart case was so clear cut he wasn't armed, and 702 00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:19,400 Speaker 2: all these police around him, and everybody knew if the 703 00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:24,360 Speaker 2: police did it, And when those officers were quitted, it 704 00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:27,120 Speaker 2: sent a signal to all the other cops in the 705 00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:29,880 Speaker 2: city that they could get away with anything. And the 706 00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:31,080 Speaker 2: message was received. 707 00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:33,279 Speaker 1: And this is their defense attorney. Is that who this 708 00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:34,040 Speaker 1: is telling you that? 709 00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:38,000 Speaker 2: No, this is Ron Kooby, he says, still practicing. He 710 00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:40,880 Speaker 2: worked with He was the partner of William Kunstler. He 711 00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:42,920 Speaker 2: happened to represent a couple of the people that I 712 00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:44,640 Speaker 2: wrote about in the book, so I was in touch 713 00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:45,000 Speaker 2: with him. 714 00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:47,080 Speaker 1: Did you end up ever getting hold of any of 715 00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:49,080 Speaker 1: the officers or they passed away? 716 00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:51,840 Speaker 2: At this point I talked a couple of times to 717 00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:54,560 Speaker 2: John Tostik, against the advice of his attorney. 718 00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:58,279 Speaker 1: Did he give you any information that helped you at 719 00:44:58,280 --> 00:44:59,800 Speaker 1: all or illuminated anything? 720 00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:04,120 Speaker 2: Not in any kind of profound way. But as a journalist, 721 00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:06,520 Speaker 2: when you get somebody like that on the phone, you're 722 00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:08,799 Speaker 2: kind of grateful for anything you get. I mean, the 723 00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:11,840 Speaker 2: same was true when I interviewed Bernard Getz. I mean, again, 724 00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:15,200 Speaker 2: he's not a profound person, but you know, it was 725 00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:17,960 Speaker 2: nice to get him on the record about why he 726 00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:22,160 Speaker 2: you know, didn't take Joan Rivers as offer of bail 727 00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:26,440 Speaker 2: money and what his thoughts were on Jimmy Breslin. But 728 00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:29,600 Speaker 2: you know, you're never going to get introspection from these people. 729 00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:32,760 Speaker 1: Were you able to pack this away once the book 730 00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:35,560 Speaker 1: was done? And I'd actually ask you that about Last Call? 731 00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:39,320 Speaker 1: Also when you're digging into these cases, you know, I'm 732 00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:42,520 Speaker 1: generally pretty far back in the nineteen hundreds and eighteen hundreds, 733 00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:45,040 Speaker 1: but you are talking to people who are still involved, 734 00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:48,040 Speaker 1: you know, and people who still care about Michael and 735 00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:51,759 Speaker 1: about these men in Last Call, these victims. Is it 736 00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:53,640 Speaker 1: hard for you to pack this stuff away? Or are 737 00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:55,840 Speaker 1: you kind of at a point in your career with 738 00:45:55,920 --> 00:45:58,399 Speaker 1: everything that you report on that you're able to sort 739 00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:00,680 Speaker 1: of move past it and remember things and you know, 740 00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:03,200 Speaker 1: think about the victims when you when you need to 741 00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:05,040 Speaker 1: where every once in a while. Or is it hard 742 00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:06,320 Speaker 1: when you complete these books? 743 00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:09,640 Speaker 2: Yes? And no, I mean it's it's hard in the 744 00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:14,200 Speaker 2: sense that I don't have like trauma or something that 745 00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:18,440 Speaker 2: lingers from the work, But it's very hard to remove 746 00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:22,000 Speaker 2: yourself from a project like this because of the relationships 747 00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:25,640 Speaker 2: that you build up with the sources. I mean, you know, 748 00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:29,200 Speaker 2: you get used to talking to people, whether it's Michael's 749 00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:32,719 Speaker 2: girlfriend or Patricia Gross, one of the members of the 750 00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:36,200 Speaker 2: United Freedom Front the door talking to her. You know, 751 00:46:36,239 --> 00:46:40,839 Speaker 2: these are all really interesting people, and the pleasures of 752 00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:44,120 Speaker 2: working on the Mando Maty Killed your Last Call is 753 00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:48,960 Speaker 2: to be able to live in that world to some extent. 754 00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:54,560 Speaker 2: It's really nice. Even though the topic of these books 755 00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:59,440 Speaker 2: is bleak, there's something wonderful about being able to in 756 00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:02,279 Speaker 2: one case live in the bars and clubs of the 757 00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:05,560 Speaker 2: East Village and in the other book, you know, the 758 00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:09,000 Speaker 2: piano bars, the Upper west Side, a pre east Side, 759 00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:13,160 Speaker 2: and it's very hard to totally disengage from that, mostly 760 00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:14,120 Speaker 2: because I don't want to. 761 00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:28,640 Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the 762 00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:31,560 Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That 763 00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:34,920 Speaker 1: Is Wicked, and American Sherlock and Don't Forget. There are 764 00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:38,759 Speaker 1: twelve seasons of my historical true crime podcast Tenfold More 765 00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:42,440 Speaker 1: Wicked right here in this podcast feed, scroll back and 766 00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:45,239 Speaker 1: give them a listen if you haven't already. This has 767 00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:49,759 Speaker 1: been an exactly right production. Our senior producer is Alexis M. Morosi. 768 00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:54,640 Speaker 1: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This episode was mixed 769 00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:58,520 Speaker 1: by John Bradley. Curtis Heath is our composer. Artwork by 770 00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:03,080 Speaker 1: Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgarriff and 771 00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:07,320 Speaker 1: Danielle Kramer. Listen to Wicked Words on the iHeartRadio app, 772 00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:11,160 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Follow Wicked 773 00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:15,400 Speaker 1: Words on Instagram at tenfold More Wicked, and on Facebook 774 00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:17,040 Speaker 1: at wicked Words Pod