WEBVTT - Psychological Manipulation is a Solvable Problem 0:00:15.076 --> 0:00:25.396 Bushki, this is solvable. I'm Jacob Weisberg. For a moment, 0:00:25.436 --> 0:00:28.196 I thought I heard glass breaking around me. Physically, it 0:00:28.276 --> 0:00:36.196 was my entire identity crumbled. It was just devastating. Dianne 0:00:36.236 --> 0:00:39.836 ben Scoter's life changed when she left the Mooneyes. It 0:00:39.916 --> 0:00:43.876 wasn't easy. The cult provided connection and meaning, and while 0:00:43.876 --> 0:00:46.116 she was a member, it was hard to imagine a 0:00:46.196 --> 0:00:51.116 life outside of it. Dianne was a victim of psychological manipulation, 0:00:51.716 --> 0:00:55.596 a technique practiced by cults of very different kinds, ranging 0:00:55.636 --> 0:00:58.876 from the People's Temple which ended in the Jonestown tragedy, 0:00:59.236 --> 0:01:06.876 to Nexium to qan On. Radicalization can happen because not 0:01:07.116 --> 0:01:11.756 enough people understand how psychological manipulation works. And I don't 0:01:11.756 --> 0:01:14.036 think there's any other way to solve it than to 0:01:14.156 --> 0:01:18.796 take a public health approach to it. It's like mole whacking. 0:01:19.356 --> 0:01:23.036 Until we get to that tipping point of enough people 0:01:23.116 --> 0:01:25.556 understanding it, it's just going to show up in different 0:01:25.596 --> 0:01:28.796 ways and in different packaging, and we'll just be programming 0:01:28.836 --> 0:01:31.356 someone from this calt and that calt in one person 0:01:31.396 --> 0:01:35.116 at a time, and that is just not going to 0:01:35.156 --> 0:01:41.036 solve the problem. It'll just keep getting worse. Diane Benscoter 0:01:41.236 --> 0:01:45.956 is the founder of Antidote dot NGO. Her organization provides 0:01:46.036 --> 0:01:50.316 resources the families looking for support and individuals looking to 0:01:50.396 --> 0:01:53.956 make a change. I just, you know, I could imagine 0:01:53.996 --> 0:01:57.916 myself just feeling immense frustration and a failure of empathy 0:01:58.116 --> 0:02:02.316 because it's their own stupidity. It does seem like that, 0:02:02.356 --> 0:02:06.196 I know, and I struggle with those feelings myself, even 0:02:06.276 --> 0:02:09.716 after a lifetime of trying to understand this speaking of it, 0:02:10.396 --> 0:02:15.236 if you can step over, jump over the belief system, 0:02:15.276 --> 0:02:18.716 if you can go back to the person that you 0:02:18.836 --> 0:02:21.516 love and remember that they're a good person, remind them 0:02:21.556 --> 0:02:24.076 that you love them because they are a good person, 0:02:24.716 --> 0:02:27.556 and that you want to try to improve the relationship. 0:02:27.636 --> 0:02:29.916 Focus on the relationship and see if you can start 0:02:29.956 --> 0:02:36.156 building from there. Denscoder is hopeful. I believe we can 0:02:36.236 --> 0:02:41.036 solve the very dangerous problem of psychological manipulation and how 0:02:41.036 --> 0:02:51.716 it affects so many people in society. Dan, you are 0:02:51.756 --> 0:02:55.876 a cult d programmer. You're someone who helps people get 0:02:55.876 --> 0:02:59.156 out of cults and break out of cult thinking. And 0:02:59.196 --> 0:03:01.436 I wonder if just to begin, you could tell us 0:03:01.516 --> 0:03:05.356 a little about your own history in a particular cult, 0:03:05.556 --> 0:03:10.516 the Unification Church, sometimes known as the Mooneyes. I joined 0:03:10.636 --> 0:03:14.436 that group when I was seventeen years old. I was 0:03:15.436 --> 0:03:17.636 really confused about what was going on in the world. 0:03:17.636 --> 0:03:21.876 The Vietnam War was going on, and I was listening 0:03:21.876 --> 0:03:25.556 to the music of our time that was inspiring me 0:03:25.676 --> 0:03:28.516 to want to do something about the war and to 0:03:28.956 --> 0:03:32.876 make the world better. And so I went on what 0:03:32.916 --> 0:03:35.556 I thought was a walk for world peace, and as 0:03:35.556 --> 0:03:38.956 it turns out, it was the Mooney's and I was 0:03:39.116 --> 0:03:44.356 recruited and soon understood that the Messiah was on the earth, 0:03:44.476 --> 0:03:47.316 and it was sun round moon, and that I was 0:03:47.436 --> 0:03:51.436 born to be a disciple of Christ. That was my 0:03:51.516 --> 0:03:54.356 mission in life, and so for the next five years 0:03:54.356 --> 0:03:59.836 I dedicated myself wholly to that task of serving God 0:03:59.876 --> 0:04:02.516 in that way. In a lot of ways, you fit 0:04:02.636 --> 0:04:08.676 the stereotype. You were young, impressionable, teenager adolescent going through 0:04:08.756 --> 0:04:13.156 change life, feeling alienated. That's how you got in. How 0:04:13.156 --> 0:04:15.556 did you get out? Did someone? Did someone help you? 0:04:15.636 --> 0:04:18.636 Was there a deep programmer who was involved in helping 0:04:18.836 --> 0:04:22.756 you get out of that? Called there was? My family 0:04:23.196 --> 0:04:25.996 hired someone to come and talk to me, and it 0:04:26.036 --> 0:04:29.236 was kind of a situation where I thought that I 0:04:29.236 --> 0:04:31.556 would be able to help bring them back into the fold. 0:04:31.636 --> 0:04:34.916 I thought, here's a former member who's gone astray, and 0:04:34.996 --> 0:04:38.676 I'll be able to bring them back in. Unfortunately for 0:04:39.316 --> 0:04:42.916 my belief system at that time, they started making a 0:04:42.916 --> 0:04:47.756 lot of sense, and I started to understand that what 0:04:47.876 --> 0:04:50.996 had happened to me was that I had been manipulated 0:04:51.516 --> 0:04:54.076 and taken advantage of, and that this whole thing was 0:04:54.156 --> 0:04:57.516 a big lie. It was one of the most painful 0:04:57.556 --> 0:05:00.316 things I've ever experienced in my life to realize that 0:05:01.276 --> 0:05:03.996 it took a long time to recover from it. And 0:05:04.036 --> 0:05:06.476 then after you left, how did you start to become 0:05:06.516 --> 0:05:10.556 a deep programmer yourself. I had the unique opportunity there 0:05:10.676 --> 0:05:15.556 was a rehab house for people leaving various cults. This 0:05:15.596 --> 0:05:19.036 woman had opened up her home and had people from 0:05:19.156 --> 0:05:21.436 whatever cult they were in come there and stay as 0:05:21.476 --> 0:05:24.916 a time of transition. And she offered me a job 0:05:25.036 --> 0:05:28.876 there and saw people coming through from High Christiana and 0:05:28.996 --> 0:05:33.316 Guruma Haraj He's called There's half a dozen Children of God, 0:05:33.796 --> 0:05:36.196 different groups that people would come and stay there for 0:05:36.236 --> 0:05:40.156 a while during their recovery. That was a really important 0:05:40.236 --> 0:05:44.036 time for me and understanding how psychological manipulation works, and 0:05:44.076 --> 0:05:48.116 that wasn't just that the Mooneyes were this unique situation, 0:05:48.756 --> 0:05:51.396 but I started getting asked to go out on cases 0:05:51.836 --> 0:05:54.356 where families needed someone to come and talk to their 0:05:54.516 --> 0:05:57.636 loved one. They would hold the person against their will. 0:05:57.676 --> 0:06:00.036 That was kind of the old style to programming back 0:06:00.076 --> 0:06:03.796 in the eighties. They would the family would say, you're 0:06:03.796 --> 0:06:05.596 not leaving until you talk to this person. It was 0:06:05.636 --> 0:06:10.316 an intervention type of situation, and I went on many 0:06:10.396 --> 0:06:14.316 cases like that until I was eventually arrested for kidnapping. 0:06:14.836 --> 0:06:17.156 Everything went wrong, She went out the bathroom window and 0:06:17.556 --> 0:06:20.516 went to the police, and we're all arrested. It's a 0:06:20.556 --> 0:06:25.436 little longer story than them. So it was that point 0:06:25.476 --> 0:06:28.916 that I stopped doing those kind of interventions and started 0:06:29.636 --> 0:06:32.036 really thinking about what all this meant and what I 0:06:32.076 --> 0:06:34.836 really could do to make a difference. You know, even 0:06:34.876 --> 0:06:39.716 that term deep program suggests that there is a distinction 0:06:39.876 --> 0:06:43.396 between someone who has been manipulated, as you say, and 0:06:43.516 --> 0:06:47.836 someone who has legitimate beliefs, and that points to the distinction, 0:06:48.316 --> 0:06:51.996 you know, between cult and religion, or between cult and 0:06:52.156 --> 0:06:56.036 political movement. And how do we draw that line? How 0:06:56.036 --> 0:06:59.356 do we define a cult which is a set of 0:06:59.396 --> 0:07:04.156 beliefs that will require something like kind of deprogramming that 0:07:04.356 --> 0:07:08.516 you've become very skilled in doing, as opposed to something 0:07:08.556 --> 0:07:12.716 that is just someone's religion. It's such an important point 0:07:12.756 --> 0:07:17.716 you're bringing up, Jacob. It's it's really something that I 0:07:17.716 --> 0:07:20.716 think most people point in the wrong direction. They're trying 0:07:20.756 --> 0:07:23.396 to define is this a cult or not? And I 0:07:23.436 --> 0:07:27.356 think that while that's interesting and it can be done, 0:07:27.436 --> 0:07:30.756 there's a lot of cult experts that do that. I 0:07:30.796 --> 0:07:37.356 think the important question is psychological manipulation being used to 0:07:37.396 --> 0:07:43.036 try to influence someone's decision making processes, and that is 0:07:43.636 --> 0:07:51.076 the solvable thing that radicalization can happen because not enough 0:07:51.116 --> 0:07:54.956 people understand how psychological manipulation works. It can take the 0:07:54.956 --> 0:07:58.356 form of a religious called someone in a self helped 0:07:58.476 --> 0:08:03.556 thing like Nexium, Keith Ornary, that whole thing, or scientology. 0:08:03.636 --> 0:08:08.236 It can happen in what happened recently. This last year 0:08:08.396 --> 0:08:11.796 was my biggest fear that a large number of people 0:08:11.836 --> 0:08:16.276 would be radicalized, and the perfect storm happened. People were isolated, 0:08:16.636 --> 0:08:20.796 people were scared, wondering what was true, They didn't know 0:08:20.836 --> 0:08:24.436 what news sources to trust, and it was the perfect 0:08:24.476 --> 0:08:30.956 opportunity to take advantage of those psychological situations, and it 0:08:30.956 --> 0:08:34.756 works every time. Yeah, so I think you're maybe referring 0:08:34.996 --> 0:08:41.636 partly to QAnon, people who reject factual information about how 0:08:41.836 --> 0:08:46.556 the election was decided. You know, QAnon really interesting example. 0:08:46.836 --> 0:08:52.996 It's not a religion. It's a crazy political conspiracy, sort 0:08:53.036 --> 0:08:55.876 of not exactly clear how it spreads. It happens to 0:08:55.876 --> 0:08:58.676 be on the right. You know, what makes that a cult? 0:08:58.756 --> 0:09:02.196 And what how specifically do we deal with that cult? 0:09:02.276 --> 0:09:05.196 Which is I think from the perspective of our politics, 0:09:05.196 --> 0:09:07.356 from the perspective the country is, in a way the 0:09:07.396 --> 0:09:10.036 most dangerous one we're dealing with right now. Is it 0:09:10.076 --> 0:09:12.276 a cult? There are people that would say that it is, 0:09:12.956 --> 0:09:17.196 but I think again what's important is that in order 0:09:17.236 --> 0:09:21.796 to solve this problem, a large number of people, the 0:09:21.796 --> 0:09:26.796 majority of people, Much like herd immunity, we really need 0:09:26.836 --> 0:09:30.676 to have the majority of people understand the trickery of 0:09:30.716 --> 0:09:36.276 psychological manipulation, because I don't think there's any other way 0:09:36.316 --> 0:09:38.516 to solve it than to take a public health approach 0:09:38.556 --> 0:09:43.236 to it. It's like mole whacking. Until we get to 0:09:43.316 --> 0:09:47.436 that tipping point of enough people understanding it, it's just 0:09:47.476 --> 0:09:50.156 going to show up in different ways and in different packaging, 0:09:50.516 --> 0:09:52.956 and we'll just be programming someone from this cult and 0:09:53.036 --> 0:09:56.196 that cult in one person at a time, and that 0:09:56.356 --> 0:09:59.356 is just not going to solve the problem. It'll just 0:09:59.476 --> 0:10:02.556 keep getting worse. So it's interesting to think about the 0:10:02.596 --> 0:10:05.636 public health approach. You know, what you can do to 0:10:06.396 --> 0:10:10.916 make people less vulnerable to manipulate. What's the first step. 0:10:11.716 --> 0:10:15.196 What you have to do is educate people about the tactics, 0:10:15.716 --> 0:10:18.916 build curriculum for educators so that they can teach young 0:10:18.996 --> 0:10:22.436 people from an early age how this works. We have 0:10:22.516 --> 0:10:25.996 to use influencers to spread information and we have to 0:10:26.316 --> 0:10:29.396 do everything we can to try to get to that 0:10:29.476 --> 0:10:33.916 herd immunity point. Much like with cigarettes as a problem 0:10:34.956 --> 0:10:37.356 that people didn't understand that they were harmful, there had 0:10:37.396 --> 0:10:42.836 to be a massive education campaign to educate everyone possible 0:10:42.876 --> 0:10:45.396 about the danger. And now most people if you would 0:10:45.396 --> 0:10:48.396 ask them, do you understand that cigarette smoking is dangerous? 0:10:48.436 --> 0:10:50.276 They would say yes. And we have to get to 0:10:50.316 --> 0:10:54.156 that point with psychological manipulation. Yeah, I mean in the 0:10:54.236 --> 0:10:57.356 classic called there's a leader Reverend Moon or in the 0:10:57.436 --> 0:11:01.436 Nexium story that you referred to, who's driving the manipulation 0:11:02.116 --> 0:11:05.956 of the adherents. But QAnon doesn't seem to quite conform 0:11:06.036 --> 0:11:09.036 to that. I mean, whether there's some wizard of All 0:11:09.236 --> 0:11:11.356 figure who's planting the seeds of Q I don't know, 0:11:11.676 --> 0:11:14.956 but there's no publicly identified leader who's getting people to 0:11:15.076 --> 0:11:17.516 follow him or her. It's kind of a peer to 0:11:17.596 --> 0:11:20.356 peer cult in that way. Does a cult have to 0:11:20.396 --> 0:11:22.876 have a leader? And is that a distinctive thing about 0:11:22.956 --> 0:11:25.796 q and On that it doesn't. It is an interesting 0:11:25.836 --> 0:11:29.356 thing about q and On for sure. And I think 0:11:29.556 --> 0:11:32.116 it could be argued that Donald Trump was the leader 0:11:32.316 --> 0:11:38.036 in some way, that that was the goal. But what's 0:11:38.116 --> 0:11:43.076 more important, I think is that there were efforts to 0:11:43.116 --> 0:11:46.676 create an enemy by creating a US into them. You 0:11:46.756 --> 0:11:50.076 have to have an enemy because if you want people 0:11:50.476 --> 0:11:54.516 to just believe one source of information, because that's how 0:11:54.556 --> 0:11:58.316 you control people. If you want people to do what 0:11:58.396 --> 0:12:01.156 you want them to do, then you have to convince 0:12:01.196 --> 0:12:04.636 them that all sources of information outside of that group, 0:12:04.716 --> 0:12:09.036 outside of that source of information are lies and untrust 0:12:09.236 --> 0:12:13.556 worthy or even evil satan whatever. You know. That's how 0:12:13.636 --> 0:12:15.596 cults do it, and that's how it was done on 0:12:15.596 --> 0:12:21.036 this larger political spectrum. And so that's how it works. 0:12:22.036 --> 0:12:25.116 And the other thing is that with technology like it is, 0:12:25.396 --> 0:12:30.596 it's not that expensive to create media that looks really believable. 0:12:31.036 --> 0:12:34.156 And so here's a group of people isolated on Facebook 0:12:34.756 --> 0:12:37.716 and somebody that they like and respect in their circle 0:12:38.196 --> 0:12:41.796 says something really radical, and it seems to me it 0:12:41.876 --> 0:12:44.396 rings true. It might be about it might be a 0:12:44.516 --> 0:12:48.476 racist statement, it might be something about the left being 0:12:48.516 --> 0:12:51.516 evil or whatever, and it rings true to you. And 0:12:51.556 --> 0:12:53.956 then you click and click and click, and pretty soon 0:12:54.716 --> 0:12:57.756 this is all making sense and you're thinking, this explains everything. 0:12:57.796 --> 0:13:01.836 Now I understand the evil on the left is trying 0:13:01.836 --> 0:13:04.876 to take over the world, and I have to join forces, 0:13:04.956 --> 0:13:08.516 and this is war, you know, and it grows like that, 0:13:08.756 --> 0:13:13.156 it's perpetuating. Well, it's a reaction to the intellectual freedom 0:13:13.316 --> 0:13:17.476 of modern society, isn't it. I mean, in traditional societies, 0:13:18.076 --> 0:13:21.356 presumably called there less of an issue because people don't 0:13:21.516 --> 0:13:24.276 have that search for what to believe in and how 0:13:24.316 --> 0:13:27.356 the world works. That's given to you, and there's a 0:13:27.396 --> 0:13:30.916 structure to the society and a prescribed set of beliefs 0:13:30.916 --> 0:13:34.196 and a cosmology, and the actual belief might be wacky, 0:13:34.236 --> 0:13:37.756 but they're held by everybody. Whereas in modern society you 0:13:37.756 --> 0:13:41.036 can believe whatever you want, and all the things you 0:13:41.076 --> 0:13:46.156 say about the vulnerability to psychological manipulation, people's deep need 0:13:46.276 --> 0:13:49.756 to understand and have a belief system. That's a void 0:13:49.876 --> 0:13:53.476 that can be filled. But given that, I mean, I 0:13:53.476 --> 0:13:56.796 don't know if you agree with that particular explanation, but 0:13:57.156 --> 0:14:01.956 given that, is psychological manipulation a problem that can be solved? 0:14:02.036 --> 0:14:04.716 I mean, if it's something the human beings are just 0:14:04.836 --> 0:14:08.596 fundamentally looking for and missing in modern society, how do 0:14:08.636 --> 0:14:11.476 you fill that space in a way that wouldn't leave 0:14:11.516 --> 0:14:14.156 them vulnerable to the cults in the way so many 0:14:14.196 --> 0:14:16.596 people clearly are. I mean, what do you do when 0:14:16.596 --> 0:14:19.076 someone is already in and you want to help them 0:14:19.116 --> 0:14:22.356 get out? What's the first step? In my organization, what 0:14:22.396 --> 0:14:26.596 we're doing is setting up off ramps basically for people. 0:14:26.996 --> 0:14:30.756 And the people that come to us as seeking help 0:14:30.756 --> 0:14:35.396 are almost always family members. They're the loved ones of 0:14:35.476 --> 0:14:39.076 people who they've noticed that they've completely changed. They can't 0:14:39.116 --> 0:14:41.196 talk to them anymore, they don't know how to communicate 0:14:41.236 --> 0:14:44.596 with them, and they feel like their loved one has 0:14:44.636 --> 0:14:47.596 joined a cult. What we do is try to work 0:14:47.596 --> 0:14:51.796 with them to help them understand how this has happened, 0:14:52.196 --> 0:14:56.156 What the trickery of psychological manipulation is so that they 0:14:56.196 --> 0:14:59.556 can gain empathy, because you have to have empathy toward 0:14:59.636 --> 0:15:02.316 the person if you're going to help them at all. 0:15:03.156 --> 0:15:05.236 They have to agree that they are willing to have 0:15:05.276 --> 0:15:09.436 a conversation about the possibility that maybe they've been taken advantage. 0:15:10.236 --> 0:15:13.996 Then it's just a matter of kind of unpeeling the onion. 0:15:14.596 --> 0:15:16.876 But they have to want to talk to you. I mean, 0:15:16.916 --> 0:15:18.756 as you said, you can't kid and have them anymore. 0:15:19.196 --> 0:15:22.436 It's voluntary, So you know, there has to be at 0:15:22.516 --> 0:15:27.396 least some openness to see, whether it's because of pressure 0:15:27.516 --> 0:15:30.076 from family members who they still care about, or some 0:15:30.436 --> 0:15:33.316 nagging feeling that something's wrong. They have to be open 0:15:33.476 --> 0:15:37.356 to changing their tanking. Yeah, and most people's approach is, 0:15:38.076 --> 0:15:40.716 here are a million facts, can't you just look at 0:15:40.756 --> 0:15:43.796 them and see? But that doesn't work because it's not 0:15:43.876 --> 0:15:48.236 about the facts, it's about their psychological situation. They need 0:15:48.236 --> 0:15:50.796 this to be true. They want it to be true. 0:15:51.076 --> 0:15:53.716 They'll do anything for it to be true because they're 0:15:53.716 --> 0:15:58.476 getting something from it on a psychological level, and so 0:15:58.876 --> 0:16:01.916 for them to be willing to let go of that, 0:16:01.996 --> 0:16:04.956 there has to be something bigger in it. For them, 0:16:04.996 --> 0:16:08.756 and the bigger is that they have to want their 0:16:08.756 --> 0:16:12.516 relations ship back with their loved ones, for instance. And 0:16:12.796 --> 0:16:16.676 so if you can approach them with I know you're 0:16:16.676 --> 0:16:19.236 a good person. I know you're involved in this because 0:16:19.276 --> 0:16:21.516 you care so much about the world and because you 0:16:21.556 --> 0:16:26.676 want America to be a great place or whatever it is, 0:16:26.876 --> 0:16:31.036 whatever it is that they sincerely do care about, and 0:16:31.716 --> 0:16:35.756 get them to agree perhaps that we both agree that 0:16:35.916 --> 0:16:38.716 this isn't working, our relationship isn't working. We have to 0:16:38.756 --> 0:16:42.516 find a way. Will you at least consider some family 0:16:42.556 --> 0:16:45.276 therapy or someone that can help us learn to talk 0:16:45.276 --> 0:16:46.836 with each other again and try to get to the 0:16:46.876 --> 0:16:51.116 bottom of what happened here, And if there are trained 0:16:51.156 --> 0:16:54.956 mental health professionals that can help look at the family 0:16:55.036 --> 0:16:58.356 system and help the person feel safe enough to look 0:16:58.356 --> 0:17:01.796 at the possibility that maybe they've been taken advantage of 0:17:01.836 --> 0:17:05.836 and maybe that's what's going on here that allows them 0:17:05.876 --> 0:17:09.876 to still believe that they're a good person. And pretty 0:17:09.956 --> 0:17:14.236 much anyone that I have talked with and helped exit 0:17:14.916 --> 0:17:18.996 any kind of an extremist group, there's that point where 0:17:19.036 --> 0:17:24.596 they get it, where they understand that they've been taken 0:17:24.636 --> 0:17:30.916 advantage of intentionally. Then it's very devastating. At that moment 0:17:30.916 --> 0:17:35.476 when I realized that, for a moment, I thought I 0:17:35.516 --> 0:17:40.116 heard glass breaking around me. Physically, it was my entire 0:17:40.156 --> 0:17:46.036 identity crumbled. It was just devastating. And I think that 0:17:47.956 --> 0:17:52.316 you have to be very gentle and empathetic towards someone 0:17:52.876 --> 0:17:56.796 who has been radicalized, because it often takes over your 0:17:56.916 --> 0:18:00.236 entire identity, and so what you believe, the music, you like, 0:18:00.396 --> 0:18:04.116 everything has become part of that identity. Your political views, 0:18:05.156 --> 0:18:08.636 your world views completely are tied up in that. Your community, 0:18:09.196 --> 0:18:13.836 who you consider your friends. It's an identity crisis and 0:18:13.916 --> 0:18:16.436 it takes a long time to recover from that. So 0:18:17.476 --> 0:18:19.876 they have to trust that you have their best interest 0:18:20.076 --> 0:18:22.636 in mind and that you're not just wanting to argue 0:18:22.636 --> 0:18:25.876 about what's right and wrong, because that just does not work. 0:18:26.796 --> 0:18:29.116 It does seem that it might be harder to have 0:18:29.276 --> 0:18:33.676 empathy for someone who's fallen prey to q Andon beliefs 0:18:33.956 --> 0:18:37.316 than someone who would you join the Hari Krishna's I mean, 0:18:37.796 --> 0:18:41.356 you know, in the one case, the with QAnon, the 0:18:41.516 --> 0:18:46.956 views are so noxious and they're adopted by choice. I mean, yes, 0:18:46.996 --> 0:18:50.116 there's psychological manipulation, but there are people who come through this, 0:18:50.556 --> 0:18:54.716 you know, just reading stuff and watching Fox News and 0:18:54.756 --> 0:18:58.476 absorbing bad sources of information. At one level, I can 0:18:58.516 --> 0:19:00.956 certainly have sympathy for them, But on the other hand, 0:19:01.036 --> 0:19:03.916 it I just, you know, I could imagine myself just 0:19:03.996 --> 0:19:08.436 feeling immense frustration and a failure of empathy because it's 0:19:08.476 --> 0:19:12.116 their own stupidity. It does seem like that, I know, 0:19:12.756 --> 0:19:16.116 and I struggle with those feelings myself, even after a 0:19:16.196 --> 0:19:19.116 lifetime of trying to understand this and speaking of it. 0:19:19.836 --> 0:19:25.596 But you know, I would have said that I completely 0:19:25.716 --> 0:19:28.676 joined the Moonies out of choice, and all of the 0:19:29.356 --> 0:19:31.996 you know, Keith Rnary, a lot of the people that 0:19:32.036 --> 0:19:34.276 were involved in that, the women who got branded with 0:19:34.316 --> 0:19:36.916 his initials, they all said I did it out a 0:19:37.036 --> 0:19:41.476 choice until they understood and then there's that devastating moment 0:19:41.476 --> 0:19:45.636 where you realize you've been taken advantage of. But it 0:19:46.876 --> 0:19:51.556 choice is a confusing word sometimes when you're talking about 0:19:51.596 --> 0:19:57.996 this topic, and yeah, it does seem noxious. And I 0:19:58.116 --> 0:20:00.996 have a lot of friends who are former white supremaists 0:20:01.596 --> 0:20:05.476 and are now trying to pull people out of that. 0:20:06.116 --> 0:20:08.956 It's a similar kind of how could you possibly be 0:20:09.156 --> 0:20:15.156 so hateful? But they were just normal people who bought 0:20:15.236 --> 0:20:18.996 into the idea. It seems horrible, and it is, but 0:20:19.836 --> 0:20:22.316 and it's what happened with Hitler youth. They weren't born 0:20:22.396 --> 0:20:26.876 evil Hitler youth. They were radicalized and terrorists. People who 0:20:26.916 --> 0:20:30.556 strap bombs on their body, people who fed poison to 0:20:30.596 --> 0:20:35.716 the children and their children in Jonestown. It's it is. 0:20:35.756 --> 0:20:38.156 It's horrible when you try to talk to them and 0:20:38.196 --> 0:20:41.596 they are spouting these horrible things, but no one wants 0:20:41.636 --> 0:20:45.156 to play the fool. And if we can help people 0:20:45.236 --> 0:20:49.356 understand this trickery, I really do think we can get 0:20:49.356 --> 0:20:51.996 to the point where this doesn't work anymore. The people 0:20:51.996 --> 0:20:56.356 that try to use these tactics won't have the same 0:20:56.636 --> 0:21:01.836 ability to do so. Yeah, it's it's a moment when, unfortunately, 0:21:01.996 --> 0:21:07.156 cults are seemed to be thriving in America, and stories 0:21:07.196 --> 0:21:10.516 about cults seem to be thriving in America. I mean 0:21:10.516 --> 0:21:15.276 these you know, like the document multiple documentaries about Nexium, 0:21:15.276 --> 0:21:18.796 and you know, people just people just love these stories. Now, 0:21:18.836 --> 0:21:23.036 presumably it's not people who are in cults who like 0:21:23.156 --> 0:21:25.556 the stories about cults so much, But I don't know, 0:21:25.596 --> 0:21:29.236 there's something a little cult like about the absorption in cults. 0:21:29.436 --> 0:21:31.476 I mean what do you make of the you know, 0:21:31.956 --> 0:21:34.836 popular cults as sort of an aspect of popular culture. 0:21:35.316 --> 0:21:39.796 People are fascinated by it, and I think everybody wants 0:21:39.836 --> 0:21:43.156 to believe that it could never happen to them, and 0:21:43.236 --> 0:21:46.396 so it's something they can point to and say, Wow, 0:21:46.476 --> 0:21:48.876 isn't that something that would never happen to me? But boy, 0:21:48.876 --> 0:21:54.996 it's so fascinating, and it is fascinating how someone can 0:21:55.076 --> 0:22:02.156 be completely taken into something like that kind of a cult. 0:22:02.716 --> 0:22:07.996 And cults are always more prevalent during times of when 0:22:08.396 --> 0:22:14.476 there's a sidal unrest, during times when there's confusion about 0:22:14.516 --> 0:22:20.036 the world. It's uncomfortable to feel confused, and it's uncomfortable 0:22:20.476 --> 0:22:24.516 to feel afraid. I mean, I was really afraid during 0:22:24.556 --> 0:22:28.836 the pandemic. I'm sure we all were. And or during 0:22:28.836 --> 0:22:31.036 the beginning of the pandemic. Appreciate you're talking about it 0:22:31.036 --> 0:22:38.236 in the past tense, They say, yeah, kidden, but especially 0:22:38.276 --> 0:22:40.716 in the beginning. I know that I My anxiety was 0:22:40.796 --> 0:22:46.036 so so very high, and in times of anxiety and confusion, 0:22:46.796 --> 0:22:51.276 and also because of technology, all the changes, the exponential change, 0:22:51.796 --> 0:22:56.276 the speed of technology change being so fast that oh, 0:22:56.316 --> 0:22:59.076 a lot of people feel very scared and confused and 0:22:59.156 --> 0:23:01.556 like they don't fit in, and so those are the 0:23:01.596 --> 0:23:05.436 perfect conditions. So, Diane, I think the old model that 0:23:05.476 --> 0:23:08.596 people have in their heads of deep programming is that 0:23:09.276 --> 0:23:12.396 ends are trying to get their children out of cults. 0:23:12.436 --> 0:23:15.076 But more and more we hear these stories about children 0:23:15.436 --> 0:23:19.436 who are losing a parent or their parents to cults, 0:23:19.836 --> 0:23:23.556 and again about QAnon and Trump and these stories we've 0:23:23.596 --> 0:23:27.956 been reading. You know, is there anything that's different about it? 0:23:27.996 --> 0:23:32.236 And there are things you've learned about trying to deal 0:23:32.316 --> 0:23:36.676 with older people in cults and families, whether you're trying 0:23:36.676 --> 0:23:41.876 to get parents or grandparents out. My inbox at Antidote 0:23:41.996 --> 0:23:47.396 is just filled with those kinds of stories. Typically, my 0:23:47.436 --> 0:23:51.916 work has been trying to help disaffected youth because that 0:23:52.036 --> 0:23:56.476 is a vulnerability. But now it's young people writing from 0:23:56.596 --> 0:23:59.316 their college dorm rooms and saying I can't talk to 0:23:59.356 --> 0:24:02.396 my parents anymore. I don't know what to do, and 0:24:02.436 --> 0:24:06.276 so it is a different demographic. It's the same on 0:24:06.316 --> 0:24:11.396 a psychological level, it's just a different demographic. And so 0:24:11.836 --> 0:24:16.476 what we're doing is creating support groups and webinars and 0:24:16.756 --> 0:24:21.036 ways for people to learn some tactics to help build 0:24:21.316 --> 0:24:26.436 bridges with their loved ones and to help diffuse the 0:24:26.476 --> 0:24:30.716 anger that's going on between the two. It's very vult volatile, 0:24:31.036 --> 0:24:34.676 and that's been taught. It's part of it. If you 0:24:34.716 --> 0:24:40.476 want control over someone, it's really helpful to have an enemy. 0:24:40.556 --> 0:24:44.796 You've got to diffuse that intense feeling of anger for 0:24:44.956 --> 0:24:47.796 the other, hatred toward the other, and it comes from 0:24:47.796 --> 0:24:51.436 both sides. It's really hard on both sides because you 0:24:51.436 --> 0:24:55.116 feel so frustrated and it feels so evil on the 0:24:55.156 --> 0:24:58.836 other side, and so that has to be diffused and 0:24:58.956 --> 0:25:01.276 broken down so that you can learn to talk with 0:25:01.316 --> 0:25:04.116 each other again. That's the first step. If first you 0:25:04.236 --> 0:25:06.956 have to start getting to the place where you can 0:25:07.236 --> 0:25:10.556 remember that things you love about that person so that 0:25:10.596 --> 0:25:13.476 you can start meeting them there and reminding them that 0:25:13.516 --> 0:25:17.796 you want that relationship back. Build from there, Diane, we 0:25:17.876 --> 0:25:21.316 usually wrap up by asking what listeners can do, and 0:25:21.356 --> 0:25:24.796 in this case I would bifurcate the question. First, what 0:25:24.836 --> 0:25:27.636 can listeners do about the problem of cults in general 0:25:28.116 --> 0:25:31.476 and figuring out how to stop cults before they start, 0:25:31.556 --> 0:25:34.996 the kind of public health approach you were talking about, 0:25:35.036 --> 0:25:38.556 But separately, what can people do as individuals dealing with 0:25:38.596 --> 0:25:42.596 other individuals they may know, and their families who are 0:25:42.676 --> 0:25:46.636 vulnerable or have succumbed to a cult. I think the 0:25:46.676 --> 0:25:49.316 answer to both of those questions is the same, and 0:25:49.436 --> 0:25:55.156 that is to educate yourself about the trickery of psychological manipulation. 0:25:55.556 --> 0:26:00.956 Understand that intersection between just human conditions, those things that 0:26:01.036 --> 0:26:04.996 cause us pain, psychological pain, not feeling lonely or not 0:26:05.076 --> 0:26:11.036 fitting in, feeling confused or or angry about the changes 0:26:11.036 --> 0:26:13.516 in the world, fears, those kind of things, and how 0:26:13.556 --> 0:26:17.636 someone can take advantage of those things and they do so. 0:26:17.756 --> 0:26:21.476 If you have someone that has clearly been radicalized in 0:26:21.516 --> 0:26:23.956