1
00:00:15,076 --> 00:00:25,396
Speaker 1: Bushki, this is solvable. I'm Jacob Weisberg. For a moment,

2
00:00:25,436 --> 00:00:28,196
Speaker 1: I thought I heard glass breaking around me. Physically, it

3
00:00:28,276 --> 00:00:36,196
Speaker 1: was my entire identity crumbled. It was just devastating. Dianne

4
00:00:36,236 --> 00:00:39,836
Speaker 1: ben Scoter's life changed when she left the Mooneyes. It

5
00:00:39,916 --> 00:00:43,876
Speaker 1: wasn't easy. The cult provided connection and meaning, and while

6
00:00:43,876 --> 00:00:46,116
Speaker 1: she was a member, it was hard to imagine a

7
00:00:46,196 --> 00:00:51,116
Speaker 1: life outside of it. Dianne was a victim of psychological manipulation,

8
00:00:51,716 --> 00:00:55,596
Speaker 1: a technique practiced by cults of very different kinds, ranging

9
00:00:55,636 --> 00:00:58,876
Speaker 1: from the People's Temple which ended in the Jonestown tragedy,

10
00:00:59,236 --> 00:01:06,876
Speaker 1: to Nexium to qan On. Radicalization can happen because not

11
00:01:07,116 --> 00:01:11,756
Speaker 1: enough people understand how psychological manipulation works. And I don't

12
00:01:11,756 --> 00:01:14,036
Speaker 1: think there's any other way to solve it than to

13
00:01:14,156 --> 00:01:18,796
Speaker 1: take a public health approach to it. It's like mole whacking.

14
00:01:19,356 --> 00:01:23,036
Speaker 1: Until we get to that tipping point of enough people

15
00:01:23,116 --> 00:01:25,556
Speaker 1: understanding it, it's just going to show up in different

16
00:01:25,596 --> 00:01:28,796
Speaker 1: ways and in different packaging, and we'll just be programming

17
00:01:28,836 --> 00:01:31,356
Speaker 1: someone from this calt and that calt in one person

18
00:01:31,396 --> 00:01:35,116
Speaker 1: at a time, and that is just not going to

19
00:01:35,156 --> 00:01:41,036
Speaker 1: solve the problem. It'll just keep getting worse. Diane Benscoter

20
00:01:41,236 --> 00:01:45,956
Speaker 1: is the founder of Antidote dot NGO. Her organization provides

21
00:01:46,036 --> 00:01:50,316
Speaker 1: resources the families looking for support and individuals looking to

22
00:01:50,396 --> 00:01:53,956
Speaker 1: make a change. I just, you know, I could imagine

23
00:01:53,996 --> 00:01:57,916
Speaker 1: myself just feeling immense frustration and a failure of empathy

24
00:01:58,116 --> 00:02:02,316
Speaker 1: because it's their own stupidity. It does seem like that,

25
00:02:02,356 --> 00:02:06,196
Speaker 1: I know, and I struggle with those feelings myself, even

26
00:02:06,276 --> 00:02:09,716
Speaker 1: after a lifetime of trying to understand this speaking of it,

27
00:02:10,396 --> 00:02:15,236
Speaker 1: if you can step over, jump over the belief system,

28
00:02:15,276 --> 00:02:18,716
Speaker 1: if you can go back to the person that you

29
00:02:18,836 --> 00:02:21,516
Speaker 1: love and remember that they're a good person, remind them

30
00:02:21,556 --> 00:02:24,076
Speaker 1: that you love them because they are a good person,

31
00:02:24,716 --> 00:02:27,556
Speaker 1: and that you want to try to improve the relationship.

32
00:02:27,636 --> 00:02:29,916
Speaker 1: Focus on the relationship and see if you can start

33
00:02:29,956 --> 00:02:36,156
Speaker 1: building from there. Denscoder is hopeful. I believe we can

34
00:02:36,236 --> 00:02:41,036
Speaker 1: solve the very dangerous problem of psychological manipulation and how

35
00:02:41,036 --> 00:02:51,716
Speaker 1: it affects so many people in society. Dan, you are

36
00:02:51,756 --> 00:02:55,876
Speaker 1: a cult d programmer. You're someone who helps people get

37
00:02:55,876 --> 00:02:59,156
Speaker 1: out of cults and break out of cult thinking. And

38
00:02:59,196 --> 00:03:01,436
Speaker 1: I wonder if just to begin, you could tell us

39
00:03:01,516 --> 00:03:05,356
Speaker 1: a little about your own history in a particular cult,

40
00:03:05,556 --> 00:03:10,516
Speaker 1: the Unification Church, sometimes known as the Mooneyes. I joined

41
00:03:10,636 --> 00:03:14,436
Speaker 1: that group when I was seventeen years old. I was

42
00:03:15,436 --> 00:03:17,636
Speaker 1: really confused about what was going on in the world.

43
00:03:17,636 --> 00:03:21,876
Speaker 1: The Vietnam War was going on, and I was listening

44
00:03:21,876 --> 00:03:25,556
Speaker 1: to the music of our time that was inspiring me

45
00:03:25,676 --> 00:03:28,516
Speaker 1: to want to do something about the war and to

46
00:03:28,956 --> 00:03:32,876
Speaker 1: make the world better. And so I went on what

47
00:03:32,916 --> 00:03:35,556
Speaker 1: I thought was a walk for world peace, and as

48
00:03:35,556 --> 00:03:38,956
Speaker 1: it turns out, it was the Mooney's and I was

49
00:03:39,116 --> 00:03:44,356
Speaker 1: recruited and soon understood that the Messiah was on the earth,

50
00:03:44,476 --> 00:03:47,316
Speaker 1: and it was sun round moon, and that I was

51
00:03:47,436 --> 00:03:51,436
Speaker 1: born to be a disciple of Christ. That was my

52
00:03:51,516 --> 00:03:54,356
Speaker 1: mission in life, and so for the next five years

53
00:03:54,356 --> 00:03:59,836
Speaker 1: I dedicated myself wholly to that task of serving God

54
00:03:59,876 --> 00:04:02,516
Speaker 1: in that way. In a lot of ways, you fit

55
00:04:02,636 --> 00:04:08,676
Speaker 1: the stereotype. You were young, impressionable, teenager adolescent going through

56
00:04:08,756 --> 00:04:13,156
Speaker 1: change life, feeling alienated. That's how you got in. How

57
00:04:13,156 --> 00:04:15,556
Speaker 1: did you get out? Did someone? Did someone help you?

58
00:04:15,636 --> 00:04:18,636
Speaker 1: Was there a deep programmer who was involved in helping

59
00:04:18,836 --> 00:04:22,756
Speaker 1: you get out of that? Called there was? My family

60
00:04:23,196 --> 00:04:25,996
Speaker 1: hired someone to come and talk to me, and it

61
00:04:26,036 --> 00:04:29,236
Speaker 1: was kind of a situation where I thought that I

62
00:04:29,236 --> 00:04:31,556
Speaker 1: would be able to help bring them back into the fold.

63
00:04:31,636 --> 00:04:34,916
Speaker 1: I thought, here's a former member who's gone astray, and

64
00:04:34,996 --> 00:04:38,676
Speaker 1: I'll be able to bring them back in. Unfortunately for

65
00:04:39,316 --> 00:04:42,916
Speaker 1: my belief system at that time, they started making a

66
00:04:42,916 --> 00:04:47,756
Speaker 1: lot of sense, and I started to understand that what

67
00:04:47,876 --> 00:04:50,996
Speaker 1: had happened to me was that I had been manipulated

68
00:04:51,516 --> 00:04:54,076
Speaker 1: and taken advantage of, and that this whole thing was

69
00:04:54,156 --> 00:04:57,516
Speaker 1: a big lie. It was one of the most painful

70
00:04:57,556 --> 00:05:00,316
Speaker 1: things I've ever experienced in my life to realize that

71
00:05:01,276 --> 00:05:03,996
Speaker 1: it took a long time to recover from it. And

72
00:05:04,036 --> 00:05:06,476
Speaker 1: then after you left, how did you start to become

73
00:05:06,516 --> 00:05:10,556
Speaker 1: a deep programmer yourself. I had the unique opportunity there

74
00:05:10,676 --> 00:05:15,556
Speaker 1: was a rehab house for people leaving various cults. This

75
00:05:15,596 --> 00:05:19,036
Speaker 1: woman had opened up her home and had people from

76
00:05:19,156 --> 00:05:21,436
Speaker 1: whatever cult they were in come there and stay as

77
00:05:21,476 --> 00:05:24,916
Speaker 1: a time of transition. And she offered me a job

78
00:05:25,036 --> 00:05:28,876
Speaker 1: there and saw people coming through from High Christiana and

79
00:05:28,996 --> 00:05:33,316
Speaker 1: Guruma Haraj He's called There's half a dozen Children of God,

80
00:05:33,796 --> 00:05:36,196
Speaker 1: different groups that people would come and stay there for

81
00:05:36,236 --> 00:05:40,156
Speaker 1: a while during their recovery. That was a really important

82
00:05:40,236 --> 00:05:44,036
Speaker 1: time for me and understanding how psychological manipulation works, and

83
00:05:44,076 --> 00:05:48,116
Speaker 1: that wasn't just that the Mooneyes were this unique situation,

84
00:05:48,756 --> 00:05:51,396
Speaker 1: but I started getting asked to go out on cases

85
00:05:51,836 --> 00:05:54,356
Speaker 1: where families needed someone to come and talk to their

86
00:05:54,516 --> 00:05:57,636
Speaker 1: loved one. They would hold the person against their will.

87
00:05:57,676 --> 00:06:00,036
Speaker 1: That was kind of the old style to programming back

88
00:06:00,076 --> 00:06:03,796
Speaker 1: in the eighties. They would the family would say, you're

89
00:06:03,796 --> 00:06:05,596
Speaker 1: not leaving until you talk to this person. It was

90
00:06:05,636 --> 00:06:10,316
Speaker 1: an intervention type of situation, and I went on many

91
00:06:10,396 --> 00:06:14,316
Speaker 1: cases like that until I was eventually arrested for kidnapping.

92
00:06:14,836 --> 00:06:17,156
Speaker 1: Everything went wrong, She went out the bathroom window and

93
00:06:17,556 --> 00:06:20,516
Speaker 1: went to the police, and we're all arrested. It's a

94
00:06:20,556 --> 00:06:25,436
Speaker 1: little longer story than them. So it was that point

95
00:06:25,476 --> 00:06:28,916
Speaker 1: that I stopped doing those kind of interventions and started

96
00:06:29,636 --> 00:06:32,036
Speaker 1: really thinking about what all this meant and what I

97
00:06:32,076 --> 00:06:34,836
Speaker 1: really could do to make a difference. You know, even

98
00:06:34,876 --> 00:06:39,716
Speaker 1: that term deep program suggests that there is a distinction

99
00:06:39,876 --> 00:06:43,396
Speaker 1: between someone who has been manipulated, as you say, and

100
00:06:43,516 --> 00:06:47,836
Speaker 1: someone who has legitimate beliefs, and that points to the distinction,

101
00:06:48,316 --> 00:06:51,996
Speaker 1: you know, between cult and religion, or between cult and

102
00:06:52,156 --> 00:06:56,036
Speaker 1: political movement. And how do we draw that line? How

103
00:06:56,036 --> 00:06:59,356
Speaker 1: do we define a cult which is a set of

104
00:06:59,396 --> 00:07:04,156
Speaker 1: beliefs that will require something like kind of deprogramming that

105
00:07:04,356 --> 00:07:08,516
Speaker 1: you've become very skilled in doing, as opposed to something

106
00:07:08,556 --> 00:07:12,716
Speaker 1: that is just someone's religion. It's such an important point

107
00:07:12,756 --> 00:07:17,716
Speaker 1: you're bringing up, Jacob. It's it's really something that I

108
00:07:17,716 --> 00:07:20,716
Speaker 1: think most people point in the wrong direction. They're trying

109
00:07:20,756 --> 00:07:23,396
Speaker 1: to define is this a cult or not? And I

110
00:07:23,436 --> 00:07:27,356
Speaker 1: think that while that's interesting and it can be done,

111
00:07:27,436 --> 00:07:30,756
Speaker 1: there's a lot of cult experts that do that. I

112
00:07:30,796 --> 00:07:37,356
Speaker 1: think the important question is psychological manipulation being used to

113
00:07:37,396 --> 00:07:43,036
Speaker 1: try to influence someone's decision making processes, and that is

114
00:07:43,636 --> 00:07:51,076
Speaker 1: the solvable thing that radicalization can happen because not enough

115
00:07:51,116 --> 00:07:54,956
Speaker 1: people understand how psychological manipulation works. It can take the

116
00:07:54,956 --> 00:07:58,356
Speaker 1: form of a religious called someone in a self helped

117
00:07:58,476 --> 00:08:03,556
Speaker 1: thing like Nexium, Keith Ornary, that whole thing, or scientology.

118
00:08:03,636 --> 00:08:08,236
Speaker 1: It can happen in what happened recently. This last year

119
00:08:08,396 --> 00:08:11,796
Speaker 1: was my biggest fear that a large number of people

120
00:08:11,836 --> 00:08:16,276
Speaker 1: would be radicalized, and the perfect storm happened. People were isolated,

121
00:08:16,636 --> 00:08:20,796
Speaker 1: people were scared, wondering what was true, They didn't know

122
00:08:20,836 --> 00:08:24,436
Speaker 1: what news sources to trust, and it was the perfect

123
00:08:24,476 --> 00:08:30,956
Speaker 1: opportunity to take advantage of those psychological situations, and it

124
00:08:30,956 --> 00:08:34,756
Speaker 1: works every time. Yeah, so I think you're maybe referring

125
00:08:34,996 --> 00:08:41,636
Speaker 1: partly to QAnon, people who reject factual information about how

126
00:08:41,836 --> 00:08:46,556
Speaker 1: the election was decided. You know, QAnon really interesting example.

127
00:08:46,836 --> 00:08:52,996
Speaker 1: It's not a religion. It's a crazy political conspiracy, sort

128
00:08:53,036 --> 00:08:55,876
Speaker 1: of not exactly clear how it spreads. It happens to

129
00:08:55,876 --> 00:08:58,676
Speaker 1: be on the right. You know, what makes that a cult?

130
00:08:58,756 --> 00:09:02,196
Speaker 1: And what how specifically do we deal with that cult?

131
00:09:02,276 --> 00:09:05,196
Speaker 1: Which is I think from the perspective of our politics,

132
00:09:05,196 --> 00:09:07,356
Speaker 1: from the perspective the country is, in a way the

133
00:09:07,396 --> 00:09:10,036
Speaker 1: most dangerous one we're dealing with right now. Is it

134
00:09:10,076 --> 00:09:12,276
Speaker 1: a cult? There are people that would say that it is,

135
00:09:12,956 --> 00:09:17,196
Speaker 1: but I think again what's important is that in order

136
00:09:17,236 --> 00:09:21,796
Speaker 1: to solve this problem, a large number of people, the

137
00:09:21,796 --> 00:09:26,796
Speaker 1: majority of people, Much like herd immunity, we really need

138
00:09:26,836 --> 00:09:30,676
Speaker 1: to have the majority of people understand the trickery of

139
00:09:30,716 --> 00:09:36,276
Speaker 1: psychological manipulation, because I don't think there's any other way

140
00:09:36,316 --> 00:09:38,516
Speaker 1: to solve it than to take a public health approach

141
00:09:38,556 --> 00:09:43,236
Speaker 1: to it. It's like mole whacking. Until we get to

142
00:09:43,316 --> 00:09:47,436
Speaker 1: that tipping point of enough people understanding it, it's just

143
00:09:47,476 --> 00:09:50,156
Speaker 1: going to show up in different ways and in different packaging,

144
00:09:50,516 --> 00:09:52,956
Speaker 1: and we'll just be programming someone from this cult and

145
00:09:53,036 --> 00:09:56,196
Speaker 1: that cult in one person at a time, and that

146
00:09:56,356 --> 00:09:59,356
Speaker 1: is just not going to solve the problem. It'll just

147
00:09:59,476 --> 00:10:02,556
Speaker 1: keep getting worse. So it's interesting to think about the

148
00:10:02,596 --> 00:10:05,636
Speaker 1: public health approach. You know, what you can do to

149
00:10:06,396 --> 00:10:10,916
Speaker 1: make people less vulnerable to manipulate. What's the first step.

150
00:10:11,716 --> 00:10:15,196
Speaker 1: What you have to do is educate people about the tactics,

151
00:10:15,716 --> 00:10:18,916
Speaker 1: build curriculum for educators so that they can teach young

152
00:10:18,996 --> 00:10:22,436
Speaker 1: people from an early age how this works. We have

153
00:10:22,516 --> 00:10:25,996
Speaker 1: to use influencers to spread information and we have to

154
00:10:26,316 --> 00:10:29,396
Speaker 1: do everything we can to try to get to that

155
00:10:29,476 --> 00:10:33,916
Speaker 1: herd immunity point. Much like with cigarettes as a problem

156
00:10:34,956 --> 00:10:37,356
Speaker 1: that people didn't understand that they were harmful, there had

157
00:10:37,396 --> 00:10:42,836
Speaker 1: to be a massive education campaign to educate everyone possible

158
00:10:42,876 --> 00:10:45,396
Speaker 1: about the danger. And now most people if you would

159
00:10:45,396 --> 00:10:48,396
Speaker 1: ask them, do you understand that cigarette smoking is dangerous?

160
00:10:48,436 --> 00:10:50,276
Speaker 1: They would say yes. And we have to get to

161
00:10:50,316 --> 00:10:54,156
Speaker 1: that point with psychological manipulation. Yeah, I mean in the

162
00:10:54,236 --> 00:10:57,356
Speaker 1: classic called there's a leader Reverend Moon or in the

163
00:10:57,436 --> 00:11:01,436
Speaker 1: Nexium story that you referred to, who's driving the manipulation

164
00:11:02,116 --> 00:11:05,956
Speaker 1: of the adherents. But QAnon doesn't seem to quite conform

165
00:11:06,036 --> 00:11:09,036
Speaker 1: to that. I mean, whether there's some wizard of All

166
00:11:09,236 --> 00:11:11,356
Speaker 1: figure who's planting the seeds of Q I don't know,

167
00:11:11,676 --> 00:11:14,956
Speaker 1: but there's no publicly identified leader who's getting people to

168
00:11:15,076 --> 00:11:17,516
Speaker 1: follow him or her. It's kind of a peer to

169
00:11:17,596 --> 00:11:20,356
Speaker 1: peer cult in that way. Does a cult have to

170
00:11:20,396 --> 00:11:22,876
Speaker 1: have a leader? And is that a distinctive thing about

171
00:11:22,956 --> 00:11:25,796
Speaker 1: q and On that it doesn't. It is an interesting

172
00:11:25,836 --> 00:11:29,356
Speaker 1: thing about q and On for sure. And I think

173
00:11:29,556 --> 00:11:32,116
Speaker 1: it could be argued that Donald Trump was the leader

174
00:11:32,316 --> 00:11:38,036
Speaker 1: in some way, that that was the goal. But what's

175
00:11:38,116 --> 00:11:43,076
Speaker 1: more important, I think is that there were efforts to

176
00:11:43,116 --> 00:11:46,676
Speaker 1: create an enemy by creating a US into them. You

177
00:11:46,756 --> 00:11:50,076
Speaker 1: have to have an enemy because if you want people

178
00:11:50,476 --> 00:11:54,516
Speaker 1: to just believe one source of information, because that's how

179
00:11:54,556 --> 00:11:58,316
Speaker 1: you control people. If you want people to do what

180
00:11:58,396 --> 00:12:01,156
Speaker 1: you want them to do, then you have to convince

181
00:12:01,196 --> 00:12:04,636
Speaker 1: them that all sources of information outside of that group,

182
00:12:04,716 --> 00:12:09,036
Speaker 1: outside of that source of information are lies and untrust

183
00:12:09,236 --> 00:12:13,556
Speaker 1: worthy or even evil satan whatever. You know. That's how

184
00:12:13,636 --> 00:12:15,596
Speaker 1: cults do it, and that's how it was done on

185
00:12:15,596 --> 00:12:21,036
Speaker 1: this larger political spectrum. And so that's how it works.

186
00:12:22,036 --> 00:12:25,116
Speaker 1: And the other thing is that with technology like it is,

187
00:12:25,396 --> 00:12:30,596
Speaker 1: it's not that expensive to create media that looks really believable.

188
00:12:31,036 --> 00:12:34,156
Speaker 1: And so here's a group of people isolated on Facebook

189
00:12:34,756 --> 00:12:37,716
Speaker 1: and somebody that they like and respect in their circle

190
00:12:38,196 --> 00:12:41,796
Speaker 1: says something really radical, and it seems to me it

191
00:12:41,876 --> 00:12:44,396
Speaker 1: rings true. It might be about it might be a

192
00:12:44,516 --> 00:12:48,476
Speaker 1: racist statement, it might be something about the left being

193
00:12:48,516 --> 00:12:51,516
Speaker 1: evil or whatever, and it rings true to you. And

194
00:12:51,556 --> 00:12:53,956
Speaker 1: then you click and click and click, and pretty soon

195
00:12:54,716 --> 00:12:57,756
Speaker 1: this is all making sense and you're thinking, this explains everything.

196
00:12:57,796 --> 00:13:01,836
Speaker 1: Now I understand the evil on the left is trying

197
00:13:01,836 --> 00:13:04,876
Speaker 1: to take over the world, and I have to join forces,

198
00:13:04,956 --> 00:13:08,516
Speaker 1: and this is war, you know, and it grows like that,

199
00:13:08,756 --> 00:13:13,156
Speaker 1: it's perpetuating. Well, it's a reaction to the intellectual freedom

200
00:13:13,316 --> 00:13:17,476
Speaker 1: of modern society, isn't it. I mean, in traditional societies,

201
00:13:18,076 --> 00:13:21,356
Speaker 1: presumably called there less of an issue because people don't

202
00:13:21,516 --> 00:13:24,276
Speaker 1: have that search for what to believe in and how

203
00:13:24,316 --> 00:13:27,356
Speaker 1: the world works. That's given to you, and there's a

204
00:13:27,396 --> 00:13:30,916
Speaker 1: structure to the society and a prescribed set of beliefs

205
00:13:30,916 --> 00:13:34,196
Speaker 1: and a cosmology, and the actual belief might be wacky,

206
00:13:34,236 --> 00:13:37,756
Speaker 1: but they're held by everybody. Whereas in modern society you

207
00:13:37,756 --> 00:13:41,036
Speaker 1: can believe whatever you want, and all the things you

208
00:13:41,076 --> 00:13:46,156
Speaker 1: say about the vulnerability to psychological manipulation, people's deep need

209
00:13:46,276 --> 00:13:49,756
Speaker 1: to understand and have a belief system. That's a void

210
00:13:49,876 --> 00:13:53,476
Speaker 1: that can be filled. But given that, I mean, I

211
00:13:53,476 --> 00:13:56,796
Speaker 1: don't know if you agree with that particular explanation, but

212
00:13:57,156 --> 00:14:01,956
Speaker 1: given that, is psychological manipulation a problem that can be solved?

213
00:14:02,036 --> 00:14:04,716
Speaker 1: I mean, if it's something the human beings are just

214
00:14:04,836 --> 00:14:08,596
Speaker 1: fundamentally looking for and missing in modern society, how do

215
00:14:08,636 --> 00:14:11,476
Speaker 1: you fill that space in a way that wouldn't leave

216
00:14:11,516 --> 00:14:14,156
Speaker 1: them vulnerable to the cults in the way so many

217
00:14:14,196 --> 00:14:16,596
Speaker 1: people clearly are. I mean, what do you do when

218
00:14:16,596 --> 00:14:19,076
Speaker 1: someone is already in and you want to help them

219
00:14:19,116 --> 00:14:22,356
Speaker 1: get out? What's the first step? In my organization, what

220
00:14:22,396 --> 00:14:26,596
Speaker 1: we're doing is setting up off ramps basically for people.

221
00:14:26,996 --> 00:14:30,756
Speaker 1: And the people that come to us as seeking help

222
00:14:30,756 --> 00:14:35,396
Speaker 1: are almost always family members. They're the loved ones of

223
00:14:35,476 --> 00:14:39,076
Speaker 1: people who they've noticed that they've completely changed. They can't

224
00:14:39,116 --> 00:14:41,196
Speaker 1: talk to them anymore, they don't know how to communicate

225
00:14:41,236 --> 00:14:44,596
Speaker 1: with them, and they feel like their loved one has

226
00:14:44,636 --> 00:14:47,596
Speaker 1: joined a cult. What we do is try to work

227
00:14:47,596 --> 00:14:51,796
Speaker 1: with them to help them understand how this has happened,

228
00:14:52,196 --> 00:14:56,156
Speaker 1: What the trickery of psychological manipulation is so that they

229
00:14:56,196 --> 00:14:59,556
Speaker 1: can gain empathy, because you have to have empathy toward

230
00:14:59,636 --> 00:15:02,316
Speaker 1: the person if you're going to help them at all.

231
00:15:03,156 --> 00:15:05,236
Speaker 1: They have to agree that they are willing to have

232
00:15:05,276 --> 00:15:09,436
Speaker 1: a conversation about the possibility that maybe they've been taken advantage.

233
00:15:10,236 --> 00:15:13,996
Speaker 1: Then it's just a matter of kind of unpeeling the onion.

234
00:15:14,596 --> 00:15:16,876
Speaker 1: But they have to want to talk to you. I mean,

235
00:15:16,916 --> 00:15:18,756
Speaker 1: as you said, you can't kid and have them anymore.

236
00:15:19,196 --> 00:15:22,436
Speaker 1: It's voluntary, So you know, there has to be at

237
00:15:22,516 --> 00:15:27,396
Speaker 1: least some openness to see, whether it's because of pressure

238
00:15:27,516 --> 00:15:30,076
Speaker 1: from family members who they still care about, or some

239
00:15:30,436 --> 00:15:33,316
Speaker 1: nagging feeling that something's wrong. They have to be open

240
00:15:33,476 --> 00:15:37,356
Speaker 1: to changing their tanking. Yeah, and most people's approach is,

241
00:15:38,076 --> 00:15:40,716
Speaker 1: here are a million facts, can't you just look at

242
00:15:40,756 --> 00:15:43,796
Speaker 1: them and see? But that doesn't work because it's not

243
00:15:43,876 --> 00:15:48,236
Speaker 1: about the facts, it's about their psychological situation. They need

244
00:15:48,236 --> 00:15:50,796
Speaker 1: this to be true. They want it to be true.

245
00:15:51,076 --> 00:15:53,716
Speaker 1: They'll do anything for it to be true because they're

246
00:15:53,716 --> 00:15:58,476
Speaker 1: getting something from it on a psychological level, and so

247
00:15:58,876 --> 00:16:01,916
Speaker 1: for them to be willing to let go of that,

248
00:16:01,996 --> 00:16:04,956
Speaker 1: there has to be something bigger in it. For them,

249
00:16:04,996 --> 00:16:08,756
Speaker 1: and the bigger is that they have to want their

250
00:16:08,756 --> 00:16:12,516
Speaker 1: relations ship back with their loved ones, for instance. And

251
00:16:12,796 --> 00:16:16,676
Speaker 1: so if you can approach them with I know you're

252
00:16:16,676 --> 00:16:19,236
Speaker 1: a good person. I know you're involved in this because

253
00:16:19,276 --> 00:16:21,516
Speaker 1: you care so much about the world and because you

254
00:16:21,556 --> 00:16:26,676
Speaker 1: want America to be a great place or whatever it is,

255
00:16:26,876 --> 00:16:31,036
Speaker 1: whatever it is that they sincerely do care about, and

256
00:16:31,716 --> 00:16:35,756
Speaker 1: get them to agree perhaps that we both agree that

257
00:16:35,916 --> 00:16:38,716
Speaker 1: this isn't working, our relationship isn't working. We have to

258
00:16:38,756 --> 00:16:42,516
Speaker 1: find a way. Will you at least consider some family

259
00:16:42,556 --> 00:16:45,276
Speaker 1: therapy or someone that can help us learn to talk

260
00:16:45,276 --> 00:16:46,836
Speaker 1: with each other again and try to get to the

261
00:16:46,876 --> 00:16:51,116
Speaker 1: bottom of what happened here, And if there are trained

262
00:16:51,156 --> 00:16:54,956
Speaker 1: mental health professionals that can help look at the family

263
00:16:55,036 --> 00:16:58,356
Speaker 1: system and help the person feel safe enough to look

264
00:16:58,356 --> 00:17:01,796
Speaker 1: at the possibility that maybe they've been taken advantage of

265
00:17:01,836 --> 00:17:05,836
Speaker 1: and maybe that's what's going on here that allows them

266
00:17:05,876 --> 00:17:09,876
Speaker 1: to still believe that they're a good person. And pretty

267
00:17:09,956 --> 00:17:14,236
Speaker 1: much anyone that I have talked with and helped exit

268
00:17:14,916 --> 00:17:18,996
Speaker 1: any kind of an extremist group, there's that point where

269
00:17:19,036 --> 00:17:24,596
Speaker 1: they get it, where they understand that they've been taken

270
00:17:24,636 --> 00:17:30,916
Speaker 1: advantage of intentionally. Then it's very devastating. At that moment

271
00:17:30,916 --> 00:17:35,476
Speaker 1: when I realized that, for a moment, I thought I

272
00:17:35,516 --> 00:17:40,116
Speaker 1: heard glass breaking around me. Physically, it was my entire

273
00:17:40,156 --> 00:17:46,036
Speaker 1: identity crumbled. It was just devastating. And I think that

274
00:17:47,956 --> 00:17:52,316
Speaker 1: you have to be very gentle and empathetic towards someone

275
00:17:52,876 --> 00:17:56,796
Speaker 1: who has been radicalized, because it often takes over your

276
00:17:56,916 --> 00:18:00,236
Speaker 1: entire identity, and so what you believe, the music, you like,

277
00:18:00,396 --> 00:18:04,116
Speaker 1: everything has become part of that identity. Your political views,

278
00:18:05,156 --> 00:18:08,636
Speaker 1: your world views completely are tied up in that. Your community,

279
00:18:09,196 --> 00:18:13,836
Speaker 1: who you consider your friends. It's an identity crisis and

280
00:18:13,916 --> 00:18:16,436
Speaker 1: it takes a long time to recover from that. So

281
00:18:17,476 --> 00:18:19,876
Speaker 1: they have to trust that you have their best interest

282
00:18:20,076 --> 00:18:22,636
Speaker 1: in mind and that you're not just wanting to argue

283
00:18:22,636 --> 00:18:25,876
Speaker 1: about what's right and wrong, because that just does not work.

284
00:18:26,796 --> 00:18:29,116
Speaker 1: It does seem that it might be harder to have

285
00:18:29,276 --> 00:18:33,676
Speaker 1: empathy for someone who's fallen prey to q Andon beliefs

286
00:18:33,956 --> 00:18:37,316
Speaker 1: than someone who would you join the Hari Krishna's I mean,

287
00:18:37,796 --> 00:18:41,356
Speaker 1: you know, in the one case, the with QAnon, the

288
00:18:41,516 --> 00:18:46,956
Speaker 1: views are so noxious and they're adopted by choice. I mean, yes,

289
00:18:46,996 --> 00:18:50,116
Speaker 1: there's psychological manipulation, but there are people who come through this,

290
00:18:50,556 --> 00:18:54,716
Speaker 1: you know, just reading stuff and watching Fox News and

291
00:18:54,756 --> 00:18:58,476
Speaker 1: absorbing bad sources of information. At one level, I can

292
00:18:58,516 --> 00:19:00,956
Speaker 1: certainly have sympathy for them, But on the other hand,

293
00:19:01,036 --> 00:19:03,916
Speaker 1: it I just, you know, I could imagine myself just

294
00:19:03,996 --> 00:19:08,436
Speaker 1: feeling immense frustration and a failure of empathy because it's

295
00:19:08,476 --> 00:19:12,116
Speaker 1: their own stupidity. It does seem like that, I know,

296
00:19:12,756 --> 00:19:16,116
Speaker 1: and I struggle with those feelings myself, even after a

297
00:19:16,196 --> 00:19:19,116
Speaker 1: lifetime of trying to understand this and speaking of it.

298
00:19:19,836 --> 00:19:25,596
Speaker 1: But you know, I would have said that I completely

299
00:19:25,716 --> 00:19:28,676
Speaker 1: joined the Moonies out of choice, and all of the

300
00:19:29,356 --> 00:19:31,996
Speaker 1: you know, Keith Rnary, a lot of the people that

301
00:19:32,036 --> 00:19:34,276
Speaker 1: were involved in that, the women who got branded with

302
00:19:34,316 --> 00:19:36,916
Speaker 1: his initials, they all said I did it out a

303
00:19:37,036 --> 00:19:41,476
Speaker 1: choice until they understood and then there's that devastating moment

304
00:19:41,476 --> 00:19:45,636
Speaker 1: where you realize you've been taken advantage of. But it

305
00:19:46,876 --> 00:19:51,556
Speaker 1: choice is a confusing word sometimes when you're talking about

306
00:19:51,596 --> 00:19:57,996
Speaker 1: this topic, and yeah, it does seem noxious. And I

307
00:19:58,116 --> 00:20:00,996
Speaker 1: have a lot of friends who are former white supremaists

308
00:20:01,596 --> 00:20:05,476
Speaker 1: and are now trying to pull people out of that.

309
00:20:06,116 --> 00:20:08,956
Speaker 1: It's a similar kind of how could you possibly be

310
00:20:09,156 --> 00:20:15,156
Speaker 1: so hateful? But they were just normal people who bought

311
00:20:15,236 --> 00:20:18,996
Speaker 1: into the idea. It seems horrible, and it is, but

312
00:20:19,836 --> 00:20:22,316
Speaker 1: and it's what happened with Hitler youth. They weren't born

313
00:20:22,396 --> 00:20:26,876
Speaker 1: evil Hitler youth. They were radicalized and terrorists. People who

314
00:20:26,916 --> 00:20:30,556
Speaker 1: strap bombs on their body, people who fed poison to

315
00:20:30,596 --> 00:20:35,716
Speaker 1: the children and their children in Jonestown. It's it is.

316
00:20:35,756 --> 00:20:38,156
Speaker 1: It's horrible when you try to talk to them and

317
00:20:38,196 --> 00:20:41,596
Speaker 1: they are spouting these horrible things, but no one wants

318
00:20:41,636 --> 00:20:45,156
Speaker 1: to play the fool. And if we can help people

319
00:20:45,236 --> 00:20:49,356
Speaker 1: understand this trickery, I really do think we can get

320
00:20:49,356 --> 00:20:51,996
Speaker 1: to the point where this doesn't work anymore. The people

321
00:20:51,996 --> 00:20:56,356
Speaker 1: that try to use these tactics won't have the same

322
00:20:56,636 --> 00:21:01,836
Speaker 1: ability to do so. Yeah, it's it's a moment when, unfortunately,

323
00:21:01,996 --> 00:21:07,156
Speaker 1: cults are seemed to be thriving in America, and stories

324
00:21:07,196 --> 00:21:10,516
Speaker 1: about cults seem to be thriving in America. I mean

325
00:21:10,516 --> 00:21:15,276
Speaker 1: these you know, like the document multiple documentaries about Nexium,

326
00:21:15,276 --> 00:21:18,796
Speaker 1: and you know, people just people just love these stories. Now,

327
00:21:18,836 --> 00:21:23,036
Speaker 1: presumably it's not people who are in cults who like

328
00:21:23,156 --> 00:21:25,556
Speaker 1: the stories about cults so much, But I don't know,

329
00:21:25,596 --> 00:21:29,236
Speaker 1: there's something a little cult like about the absorption in cults.

330
00:21:29,436 --> 00:21:31,476
Speaker 1: I mean what do you make of the you know,

331
00:21:31,956 --> 00:21:34,836
Speaker 1: popular cults as sort of an aspect of popular culture.

332
00:21:35,316 --> 00:21:39,796
Speaker 1: People are fascinated by it, and I think everybody wants

333
00:21:39,836 --> 00:21:43,156
Speaker 1: to believe that it could never happen to them, and

334
00:21:43,236 --> 00:21:46,396
Speaker 1: so it's something they can point to and say, Wow,

335
00:21:46,476 --> 00:21:48,876
Speaker 1: isn't that something that would never happen to me? But boy,

336
00:21:48,876 --> 00:21:54,996
Speaker 1: it's so fascinating, and it is fascinating how someone can

337
00:21:55,076 --> 00:22:02,156
Speaker 1: be completely taken into something like that kind of a cult.

338
00:22:02,716 --> 00:22:07,996
Speaker 1: And cults are always more prevalent during times of when

339
00:22:08,396 --> 00:22:14,476
Speaker 1: there's a sidal unrest, during times when there's confusion about

340
00:22:14,516 --> 00:22:20,036
Speaker 1: the world. It's uncomfortable to feel confused, and it's uncomfortable

341
00:22:20,476 --> 00:22:24,516
Speaker 1: to feel afraid. I mean, I was really afraid during

342
00:22:24,556 --> 00:22:28,836
Speaker 1: the pandemic. I'm sure we all were. And or during

343
00:22:28,836 --> 00:22:31,036
Speaker 1: the beginning of the pandemic. Appreciate you're talking about it

344
00:22:31,036 --> 00:22:38,236
Speaker 1: in the past tense, They say, yeah, kidden, but especially

345
00:22:38,276 --> 00:22:40,716
Speaker 1: in the beginning. I know that I My anxiety was

346
00:22:40,796 --> 00:22:46,036
Speaker 1: so so very high, and in times of anxiety and confusion,

347
00:22:46,796 --> 00:22:51,276
Speaker 1: and also because of technology, all the changes, the exponential change,

348
00:22:51,796 --> 00:22:56,276
Speaker 1: the speed of technology change being so fast that oh,

349
00:22:56,316 --> 00:22:59,076
Speaker 1: a lot of people feel very scared and confused and

350
00:22:59,156 --> 00:23:01,556
Speaker 1: like they don't fit in, and so those are the

351
00:23:01,596 --> 00:23:05,436
Speaker 1: perfect conditions. So, Diane, I think the old model that

352
00:23:05,476 --> 00:23:08,596
Speaker 1: people have in their heads of deep programming is that

353
00:23:09,276 --> 00:23:12,396
Speaker 1: ends are trying to get their children out of cults.

354
00:23:12,436 --> 00:23:15,076
Speaker 1: But more and more we hear these stories about children

355
00:23:15,436 --> 00:23:19,436
Speaker 1: who are losing a parent or their parents to cults,

356
00:23:19,836 --> 00:23:23,556
Speaker 1: and again about QAnon and Trump and these stories we've

357
00:23:23,596 --> 00:23:27,956
Speaker 1: been reading. You know, is there anything that's different about it?

358
00:23:27,996 --> 00:23:32,236
Speaker 1: And there are things you've learned about trying to deal

359
00:23:32,316 --> 00:23:36,676
Speaker 1: with older people in cults and families, whether you're trying

360
00:23:36,676 --> 00:23:41,876
Speaker 1: to get parents or grandparents out. My inbox at Antidote

361
00:23:41,996 --> 00:23:47,396
Speaker 1: is just filled with those kinds of stories. Typically, my

362
00:23:47,436 --> 00:23:51,916
Speaker 1: work has been trying to help disaffected youth because that

363
00:23:52,036 --> 00:23:56,476
Speaker 1: is a vulnerability. But now it's young people writing from

364
00:23:56,596 --> 00:23:59,316
Speaker 1: their college dorm rooms and saying I can't talk to

365
00:23:59,356 --> 00:24:02,396
Speaker 1: my parents anymore. I don't know what to do, and

366
00:24:02,436 --> 00:24:06,276
Speaker 1: so it is a different demographic. It's the same on

367
00:24:06,316 --> 00:24:11,396
Speaker 1: a psychological level, it's just a different demographic. And so

368
00:24:11,836 --> 00:24:16,476
Speaker 1: what we're doing is creating support groups and webinars and

369
00:24:16,756 --> 00:24:21,036
Speaker 1: ways for people to learn some tactics to help build

370
00:24:21,316 --> 00:24:26,436
Speaker 1: bridges with their loved ones and to help diffuse the

371
00:24:26,476 --> 00:24:30,716
Speaker 1: anger that's going on between the two. It's very vult volatile,

372
00:24:31,036 --> 00:24:34,676
Speaker 1: and that's been taught. It's part of it. If you

373
00:24:34,716 --> 00:24:40,476
Speaker 1: want control over someone, it's really helpful to have an enemy.

374
00:24:40,556 --> 00:24:44,796
Speaker 1: You've got to diffuse that intense feeling of anger for

375
00:24:44,956 --> 00:24:47,796
Speaker 1: the other, hatred toward the other, and it comes from

376
00:24:47,796 --> 00:24:51,436
Speaker 1: both sides. It's really hard on both sides because you

377
00:24:51,436 --> 00:24:55,116
Speaker 1: feel so frustrated and it feels so evil on the

378
00:24:55,156 --> 00:24:58,836
Speaker 1: other side, and so that has to be diffused and

379
00:24:58,956 --> 00:25:01,276
Speaker 1: broken down so that you can learn to talk with

380
00:25:01,316 --> 00:25:04,116
Speaker 1: each other again. That's the first step. If first you

381
00:25:04,236 --> 00:25:06,956
Speaker 1: have to start getting to the place where you can

382
00:25:07,236 --> 00:25:10,556
Speaker 1: remember that things you love about that person so that

383
00:25:10,596 --> 00:25:13,476
Speaker 1: you can start meeting them there and reminding them that

384
00:25:13,516 --> 00:25:17,796
Speaker 1: you want that relationship back. Build from there, Diane, we

385
00:25:17,876 --> 00:25:21,316
Speaker 1: usually wrap up by asking what listeners can do, and

386
00:25:21,356 --> 00:25:24,796
Speaker 1: in this case I would bifurcate the question. First, what

387
00:25:24,836 --> 00:25:27,636
Speaker 1: can listeners do about the problem of cults in general

388
00:25:28,116 --> 00:25:31,476
Speaker 1: and figuring out how to stop cults before they start,

389
00:25:31,556 --> 00:25:34,996
Speaker 1: the kind of public health approach you were talking about,

390
00:25:35,036 --> 00:25:38,556
Speaker 1: But separately, what can people do as individuals dealing with

391
00:25:38,596 --> 00:25:42,596
Speaker 1: other individuals they may know, and their families who are

392
00:25:42,676 --> 00:25:46,636
Speaker 1: vulnerable or have succumbed to a cult. I think the

393
00:25:46,676 --> 00:25:49,316
Speaker 1: answer to both of those questions is the same, and

394
00:25:49,436 --> 00:25:55,156
Speaker 1: that is to educate yourself about the trickery of psychological manipulation.

395
00:25:55,556 --> 00:26:00,956
Speaker 1: Understand that intersection between just human conditions, those things that

396
00:26:01,036 --> 00:26:04,996
Speaker 1: cause us pain, psychological pain, not feeling lonely or not

397
00:26:05,076 --> 00:26:11,036
Speaker 1: fitting in, feeling confused or or angry about the changes

398
00:26:11,036 --> 00:26:13,516
Speaker 1: in the world, fears, those kind of things, and how

399
00:26:13,556 --> 00:26:17,636
Speaker 1: someone can take advantage of those things and they do so.

400
00:26:17,756 --> 00:26:21,476
Speaker 1: If you have someone that has clearly been radicalized in

401
00:26:21,516 --> 00:26:23,956
Speaker 1: some way, I think the first thing to do is

402
00:26:24,076 --> 00:26:26,996
Speaker 1: educate yourself. There's lots of ways to do that, and

403
00:26:27,036 --> 00:26:30,956
Speaker 1: I can point people in that direction. We do webinars

404
00:26:30,956 --> 00:26:35,276
Speaker 1: and support groups and things. And then also to really

405
00:26:35,316 --> 00:26:38,636
Speaker 1: reach for that empathy, really try to understand if you

406
00:26:38,716 --> 00:26:44,316
Speaker 1: can go step over, jump over the belief system, if

407
00:26:44,316 --> 00:26:48,196
Speaker 1: you can, and go back to the person that you

408
00:26:48,276 --> 00:26:50,956
Speaker 1: love and remember that they're a good person. Remind them

409
00:26:51,036 --> 00:26:53,516
Speaker 1: that you love them because they are a good person,

410
00:26:54,196 --> 00:26:57,036
Speaker 1: and that you want to try to improve the relationship.

411
00:26:57,076 --> 00:26:59,316
Speaker 1: Focus on the relationship and see if you can start

412
00:26:59,396 --> 00:27:02,996
Speaker 1: building from there. If you're just arguing about doctrine. You're

413
00:27:03,036 --> 00:27:10,356
Speaker 1: just not going to get anywhere. Diane ben Scoter is

414
00:27:10,396 --> 00:27:13,996
Speaker 1: the founder of Antidote dot ngo and the author of

415
00:27:14,316 --> 00:27:18,716
Speaker 1: Shoes of a Servant, My Unconditional Devotion to a Lie.

416
00:27:19,756 --> 00:27:24,036
Speaker 1: To learn more about psychological manipulation and to find resources,

417
00:27:24,036 --> 00:27:27,316
Speaker 1: please check out the links in our show notes. Next

418
00:27:27,356 --> 00:27:29,956
Speaker 1: week on the show, I'll talk with an award winning

419
00:27:29,996 --> 00:27:35,596
Speaker 1: medical innovator, Deja Taylor. She's a senior in high school.

420
00:27:35,916 --> 00:27:40,316
Speaker 1: I hope you'll join us. Solvable Senior producer is Jocelyn Frank.

421
00:27:40,836 --> 00:27:44,436
Speaker 1: Research in booking by Lisa Don. Catherine Girardo is our

422
00:27:44,476 --> 00:27:49,556
Speaker 1: managing producer, and our executive producer is Mia Loebell. Solvable

423
00:27:49,596 --> 00:27:52,596
Speaker 1: is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you like the show,

424
00:27:52,876 --> 00:27:56,036
Speaker 1: please remember to share, rate, and review it. It really

425
00:27:56,076 --> 00:27:58,996
Speaker 1: helps us get the word out. You can find Pushkin

426
00:27:59,076 --> 00:28:02,836
Speaker 1: Podcasts wherever you listen, including on the iHeartRadio app and

427
00:28:02,916 --> 00:28:11,316
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts. I'm Jacob Weisberg five