1 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:06,200 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never told You from how stup 2 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:14,280 Speaker 1: works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:17,920 Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline. And a quick word of caution 4 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 1: before we get going that this episode is going to 5 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:25,840 Speaker 1: talk a lot about hard drug use, specifically heroin use, 6 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:29,319 Speaker 1: abuse and recovery. So if that is a topic that 7 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 1: you would prefer to avoid listening to for whatever reason, 8 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:38,879 Speaker 1: totally fine. You have been warned. And let's get into 9 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:45,200 Speaker 1: this really serious issue that has just skyrocketed in recent years. Yeah, 10 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:48,200 Speaker 1: heroin use has really taken off in the US for 11 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 1: a lot of sort of uh intermingling reasons, um, And 12 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:57,640 Speaker 1: it has really taken off too, among women in this country, 13 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:02,120 Speaker 1: and so we thought it was time. As almost depressing 14 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:04,399 Speaker 1: and sad as this topic can be, we thought that 15 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 1: it was really important to address it because we want 16 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 1: to better understand and we want you to better understand 17 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 1: what is behind more women abusing heroin and it's specifically 18 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:20,480 Speaker 1: white women. And it's something too that's been in the 19 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 1: news so much. Um. President Obama really launched an anti 20 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:31,880 Speaker 1: heroin initiative some months back, and I remember hearing, you know, 21 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 1: all of these press conferences about it and um, a 22 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 1: lot of politicians talking about it, both on the national 23 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 1: scale and also on the state level. And at the time, 24 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:47,120 Speaker 1: I was a little mystified, thinking heroin, why, Okay, what, 25 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 1: what's behind this? What's going on back we're having a 26 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:52,480 Speaker 1: nineties revival? Yeah, I mean, it just seems like such 27 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:55,720 Speaker 1: an extreme drug. And this, really, you know, points my 28 00:01:55,800 --> 00:02:01,000 Speaker 1: ignorance about the issue because I did not understand and uh, 29 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 1: the very practical, unfortunately reason why there is a heroin 30 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 1: epidemic happening. Yeah, so let's hit you with some numbers. Basically, 31 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 1: heroin used in this country has increased across all demographics. 32 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 1: Three out of a thousand Americans said that they had 33 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 1: used heroin in which is the most recent year the 34 00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:23,640 Speaker 1: data is available, up from one in a thousand a 35 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 1: decade earlier. And while it remains highest among men, people 36 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:32,359 Speaker 1: eighteen to twenty five, people who make less than twenty 37 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:35,400 Speaker 1: k a year, people living in cities, and people who 38 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 1: are uninsured or on Medicaid, the greatest increases have been 39 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:44,920 Speaker 1: seen among people who have historically had lower rates of use. Specifically, 40 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 1: it has doubled among women and more than doubled among 41 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:52,320 Speaker 1: non Hispanic white people and This isn't just an issue 42 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 1: of people trying heroin once and then walking away. Um 43 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:00,360 Speaker 1: as I think a lot of people know hair one 44 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 1: is extremely addictive. Nicotine is the only drug that we 45 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 1: know of it is more addictive in fact than heroin. 46 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:12,200 Speaker 1: And heroin abuse and dependency jumped thirty five point seven 47 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:15,920 Speaker 1: percent since two thousand eight to two thousand ten. And 48 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 1: about a quarter of people who try heroin just just 49 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 1: that once, perhaps thinking, will become dependent on it. And 50 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:29,960 Speaker 1: that means we're having more overdoses and more death from overdoses. Yeah, 51 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 1: that's right. Uh. In two thousand two, Uh, there were 52 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 1: just over two thousand overdose deaths and that jumped to 53 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 1: more than ten thousand. And if you look at particular states, 54 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:49,119 Speaker 1: you can see where heroin is just gripping towns, and 55 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 1: West Virginia in particular has been in the news this 56 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 1: past August and because the state has seen heroin overdose 57 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 1: deaths triple from two thousand nine to two thousand fourteen. 58 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 1: And on August fifteen, two thousand sixteen, twenty seven people 59 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 1: in this tiny West Virginia town called Huntington's overdosed one fatally, 60 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 1: all because of a bad batch of heroine that was 61 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 1: going around. Yeah, and if you look globally, opiate use 62 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 1: has been pretty stable at about seventeen million in fourteen, 63 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 1: but heroin trafficking has been on the rise. That's a 64 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 1: lot of that's a lot of kind of scary statistics, 65 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 1: a lot of scary numbers that more and more people 66 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 1: are using heroin. Um, but what is it? So let's 67 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 1: get into some DARE one oh one hashtag nineties nostalgia. 68 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:49,560 Speaker 1: That's right, Does DARE still exist? DARE does still exist? 69 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 1: DARE stands for Drug Abuse Resistance Education? Yeah, and it 70 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 1: had you know that there was the red letters, big 71 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:02,720 Speaker 1: DARE letters a black background that I remember seeing so 72 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:06,159 Speaker 1: much around the same time when there were all those commercials, 73 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 1: the p s A s about this is your brain 74 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:12,719 Speaker 1: egg is your brain on drugs? Cracked into the frying pan? Yeah, 75 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 1: And there was the commercial with the woman in the 76 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:18,159 Speaker 1: tank top and she was like smashing up the kitchen. Yeah. 77 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:20,720 Speaker 1: Was that also your brain on drugs? I think it was. 78 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 1: And that was also specifically heroin, I want to say, 79 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 1: which brings us full circle. Although that doesn't sound much 80 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 1: like heroin, which is a type of opioid derived from morphine. 81 00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:36,880 Speaker 1: And did you know caroline morphine is organic. It's a 82 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 1: naturally occurring substance extracted from the Asian opium poppies seed pod. 83 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:48,159 Speaker 1: And whether it's organic or not. Uh, if you snort it, 84 00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 1: injected or smoke it, heroin gets to your brain really fast, 85 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:58,039 Speaker 1: meaning it is incredibly dangerous and incredibly addictive. So after 86 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 1: that first injection, for instance, users feel this rush of 87 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 1: euphoria and then they chase it after that first time. 88 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:09,279 Speaker 1: But the thing is, it will never feel the same 89 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 1: after the first time that a person does heroin. What 90 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 1: happens is that it hits your brain and converts to morphine. 91 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:20,800 Speaker 1: At that point, it then binds to your opioid receptors, 92 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:25,040 Speaker 1: which are what deal with pain and reward perception. Uh. 93 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 1: And in your brain stem, those opioid receptors are involved 94 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 1: in just like really minor things like blood pressure and breathing, 95 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 1: you know. So what could possibly go wrong? Um? Well, 96 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 1: the thing is, when you're doing it over and over 97 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 1: in order to chase that high, chase that feeling of euphoria, 98 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:45,240 Speaker 1: you build up a tolerance, so you need more and 99 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 1: more to avoid withdrawal symptoms. And those withdrawal symptoms include 100 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 1: things like restlessness, muscle and bone pain, UH, insomnia, diarrhea, 101 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 1: and vomiting. You might also get kicking movements and cold flashes. 102 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 1: But basically what's happening during this point is that your 103 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 1: brain's white matter is deteriorating and this is affecting your 104 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 1: decision making and your behavior regulation and stress responses. And 105 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 1: when you overdose, your breathing becomes suppressed because your brain 106 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 1: isn't getting enough oxygen, which can then lead to psychological 107 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 1: and neurological effects, including permanent brain damage. We cannot over 108 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 1: emphasize the heroin just is not good for you in 109 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 1: any dose. Heroin is not safe. No, please, please do 110 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 1: not do heroin because other side effects also include hepatitis 111 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 1: and HIV, especially since you do get the side effect 112 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 1: of lowered decision making and behavior regulating skills. So uh 113 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:48,760 Speaker 1: if you're sharing needles or engaging in risky sexual behavior. Uh. 114 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 1: People who use heroin also might experience collapsed veins, infection 115 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 1: of the heartlining in valves, miscarriage, liver and kidney disease, 116 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:00,160 Speaker 1: and gastro intestinal problems on top of all of that. 117 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 1: And that reminds me of something that CDC director Dr 118 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 1: Tom Frieden told The New York Times about how when 119 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 1: he was getting into medicine, the AIDS epidemic was happening, 120 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 1: and there was obviously like a lot of issues around 121 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 1: shared needle use with that, and how heartbroken he is 122 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:22,160 Speaker 1: to see a similar issue happening all over again with 123 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 1: shared needles. Yeah, people out there who listen to NPR, 124 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 1: you might have heard the story. This was a couple 125 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 1: of months ago. Maybe there's a town in Indiana where 126 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:37,719 Speaker 1: heroin use has exploded, and in a parallel fashion, so 127 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 1: his HIV. Because there's a lot of people in this 128 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 1: particular community and I can't remember what it is, but 129 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 1: where they are living in poverty, they are sharing needles 130 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 1: and they're spreading disease as they abuse heroin. And that's 131 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:54,080 Speaker 1: why you're seeing more the rise of more alternative approaches 132 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:57,960 Speaker 1: to heroine treatment that include needle exchange programs where people 133 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:02,080 Speaker 1: heroin attics can come in and get clean needles, because 134 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:05,679 Speaker 1: the logic is, well, you're still going to do the 135 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:07,960 Speaker 1: drug no matter what, but at least you can do 136 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 1: it more safely. Yeah, exactly. Uh. And you know, talking 137 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:16,320 Speaker 1: about safety, we can't stress enough that heroin that you 138 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 1: get off the street is very very very very very 139 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:24,719 Speaker 1: very likely to be laced with toxic additives, things that 140 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 1: might clog your blood vessels permanently damage your organs. One 141 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:30,440 Speaker 1: of the big things that people are talking about right 142 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:33,320 Speaker 1: now is fentanyl that's in a lot, not only heroin, 143 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:35,959 Speaker 1: been in a lot of street drugs, and fentinel for 144 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:39,040 Speaker 1: those of you who don't remember, is what killed Michael Jackson. 145 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 1: It's like the surgical grade anesthesia that is not meant 146 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:48,439 Speaker 1: for recreational use. So a question that we wanted to 147 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:53,199 Speaker 1: answer is why, like what A companies and precedes heroin use, 148 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:58,959 Speaker 1: are there predicting factors leading to this? And research finds 149 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 1: that it is. Are you linked with trauma, especially when 150 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:05,480 Speaker 1: it comes to women. There was a study published in 151 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:09,480 Speaker 1: fourteen in the International Journal of Drug Policy which found 152 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:14,920 Speaker 1: that female drug users disproportionately are likely to have experienced 153 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 1: physical and mental health problems, sexual abuse, or domestic violence. Yeah, 154 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:25,280 Speaker 1: and both men and women did widely report parental divorce, 155 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:29,839 Speaker 1: family addiction, domestic violence, abuse, getting belated at school, being 156 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:33,319 Speaker 1: in the foster care system. And while more women than 157 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 1: men did discuss childhood physical and sexual abuse, there were 158 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:39,640 Speaker 1: plenty of male participants in that study who reported that 159 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:43,720 Speaker 1: they had been abused as children, And I mean these 160 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 1: researchers also note that while on average these are predicting factors, 161 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:54,200 Speaker 1: heroin addicts can also come from very affluent backgrounds, with 162 00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 1: two parent households and relatively stable conditions. So it's not 163 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:04,479 Speaker 1: like living in poverty, Um, growing up in poverty necessarily 164 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:07,240 Speaker 1: will lead you down this path, this path to heroin. 165 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:11,720 Speaker 1: But um, generally speaking, there are you know, contributing factors 166 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 1: to it. Yeah, and I mean, like Kristen said, trauma 167 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:17,600 Speaker 1: is a huge one. There was an Australian study UH 168 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:21,000 Speaker 1: in two thousand five of six hundred and fifteen heroin 169 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:25,959 Speaker 1: dependent people, and the researchers found that of those had 170 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:29,680 Speaker 1: experienced trauma at some point in their lives and forty 171 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 1: one percent had experienced PTSD at some point in their lives, 172 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:38,720 Speaker 1: compared to the general populations experience with PTSD at just 173 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:43,560 Speaker 1: seven or eight percent UM. And of those heroin users 174 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:46,440 Speaker 1: who had experienced PTSD in the study, the condition was 175 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:50,560 Speaker 1: chronic for most of them, and they had more extensive 176 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 1: histories of using multiple drugs in addition to experiencing worse 177 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:58,800 Speaker 1: mental and physical health problems and something linked to this 178 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:05,439 Speaker 1: issue of PTSD and trauma is dissociation, and Caroline, I 179 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:08,959 Speaker 1: was not expecting to run across that in our research. UM, 180 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:13,360 Speaker 1: so can you help me understand sort of what dissociation 181 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:16,760 Speaker 1: is in how it relates to all of this. Yeah, well, so, 182 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 1: first of all, women are way more likely to develop 183 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:24,560 Speaker 1: PTSD according to this Australian study, UM and dissociation is 184 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 1: super commonly aligned with the development of PTSD. And this 185 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:34,880 Speaker 1: is basically when you have started a defense mechanism. It's 186 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 1: when you separate yourself from your awareness of something. So 187 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 1: to give like a really mild, non dangerous example, day 188 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 1: dreaming is almost a type of dissociation, like you're not 189 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 1: aware of your surroundings. Have you ever gotten road amnesia, 190 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 1: where like you're driving somewhere and you look up and 191 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:54,720 Speaker 1: you're like, oh my god, it's been fifteen minutes and 192 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:57,600 Speaker 1: I don't even remember the last couple of miles of 193 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:01,120 Speaker 1: my drive. I'm nodding vigorously to Caroline. Yes, yeah, that 194 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 1: is a type of dissociation. UM. It goes all the 195 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:07,240 Speaker 1: way up to its most severe and chronic form, which 196 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:13,480 Speaker 1: is multiple personality disorder. But basically, UM people who experience trauma, 197 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:19,320 Speaker 1: one of their primary defenses, especially as children, is dissociation. 198 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 1: It's when you basically cannot deal with the circumstances around you, 199 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:27,000 Speaker 1: particularly in an abusive home, and so you kind of 200 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:30,440 Speaker 1: retreat into yourself. It's almost like you're watching a movie 201 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:34,400 Speaker 1: of yourself as a way to kind of insulate your brain, 202 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 1: insulate your feelings so that you can sort of deal 203 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 1: with this unhealthy situation around you. But the thing is, 204 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 1: researchers are saying that trauma survivors heroin use might actually 205 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 1: be an attempt to reduce the earlier trauma's effects. And 206 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:54,760 Speaker 1: this is what they refer to as chemical dissociation versus 207 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 1: the psychological dissociation that you know you will see children 208 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 1: and abuse of homes experience, and when it comes to adults, 209 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:06,199 Speaker 1: if you've never learned to deal with your trauma, or 210 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 1: you know, face difficult situations head on and overcome your 211 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:14,439 Speaker 1: habit for lack of a better word, of dissociating from 212 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 1: traumatic experiences, you might just continue to dissociate and that 213 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:22,120 Speaker 1: could potentially lead to multiple personality disorders. But it's all 214 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:26,720 Speaker 1: very wrapped up in trauma and then in heroin useed 215 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:34,480 Speaker 1: so is this U fancier term for self medication. Yeah, basically, 216 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 1: especially because it's also linked Heroin uses also linked to 217 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:41,040 Speaker 1: things like anxiety and depressions. So there was this big 218 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:46,920 Speaker 1: Illinois study from looking at heroin users in and around Chicago, 219 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 1: particularly actually the around parts, so a lot of them 220 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 1: were in the suburbs. Uh, And they found that more 221 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 1: than seventy of the sample self reported or exhibited symptoms 222 00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 1: of mental health disorders like anxiety, depression, bipolar disorder, and 223 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:05,520 Speaker 1: a d H d UH. And they found that women 224 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:08,920 Speaker 1: were actually slightly more likely to have a co occurring disorder. 225 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:13,400 Speaker 1: But the majority of the participants in that study said 226 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:17,800 Speaker 1: that heroin youth provided them relief from their worries and 227 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:22,120 Speaker 1: anxieties because heroin when you use it, when you use it, 228 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 1: it provides both pain relief but also detachment from emotions, 229 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 1: so it provides that chemical dissociation that those other researchers 230 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:32,760 Speaker 1: were talking to. And many of the people in that 231 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 1: study also exhibited sensation seeking behaviors to and that's a 232 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 1: point that we'll revisit later when we're talking about heroin's 233 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:45,880 Speaker 1: explosion in more rural settings. So if we look at 234 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 1: this epidemic of heroin youth sets happening right now and 235 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 1: how it relates to the so called war on drugs. Um, 236 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 1: we see some changes in how it's portrayed, kind of 237 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 1: who is representative of that, and also how it's being approached. So, 238 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 1: first of all, the rise of heroin has been tied 239 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 1: directly to the use of and more specifically, the crackdown 240 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:21,160 Speaker 1: on prescription painkillers, particularly OxyContin. UH of recent heroin users 241 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:24,760 Speaker 1: say that they switched to heroin after first trying prescription 242 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:29,000 Speaker 1: pain killers, and uh, anecdotally, I was talking to a 243 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:31,760 Speaker 1: friend about this episode that we were about to come 244 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:36,400 Speaker 1: in and record, and she was saying, oh, absolutely. A 245 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 1: family member of hers um started taking pills when he 246 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:45,200 Speaker 1: was in high school, and he came from a very 247 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 1: affluent family, went to a nice school, and very quickly 248 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:52,840 Speaker 1: the kids he was hanging out with were like, oh, 249 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:55,520 Speaker 1: you know what, these pain killers are fine, but have 250 00:16:55,560 --> 00:17:00,280 Speaker 1: you ever tried heroin. It's actually cheaper, and you know, 251 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 1: you start sorting it and then next thing you know, 252 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:06,480 Speaker 1: he's in and out of rehab. Yeah, there's I mean 253 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 1: not to like spoil the rest of the episode or anything, 254 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:11,440 Speaker 1: but I mean there's a whole lot of like class 255 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:16,159 Speaker 1: access issues wrapped up in this because you know, it 256 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:18,800 Speaker 1: is way more We don't have to tell you this. 257 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:22,840 Speaker 1: I mean, it is way more quote unquote socially acceptable 258 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:26,359 Speaker 1: to first take pain killers at all for anything, because 259 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:29,879 Speaker 1: your doctor gives them to you, presumably you've got insurance. 260 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 1: You go to the doctor, you get your pain killers, 261 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:36,240 Speaker 1: and then you just keep using them and it it 262 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:39,880 Speaker 1: almost is like a fashionable thing. It's like going back 263 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 1: to Mommy's little helpers, you know, the the what is 264 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:46,160 Speaker 1: it the Viking d or Vali vallium from the sixties 265 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:50,600 Speaker 1: and seventies that the housewives were getting. Uh but at 266 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:55,400 Speaker 1: some point when that becomes too expensive. But but it's 267 00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:58,159 Speaker 1: or if you're just chasing a different high. Yeah, like 268 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:01,920 Speaker 1: it's okay to abuse pain pillars because a little harroin. 269 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:04,960 Speaker 1: That's what poor people do. But as we're seeing like 270 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:08,600 Speaker 1: all of these weird classes, assumptions about drug use and 271 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 1: abuse are definitely flying out the window. Oh, I wouldn't 272 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:14,600 Speaker 1: say they're weird. I think more specifically, I was just racist. 273 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:17,320 Speaker 1: So yeah, for sure, just racist. But this reminds me 274 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 1: of what I was telling you a couple of days ago, 275 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:25,399 Speaker 1: when I was early in high school and I was 276 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:29,159 Speaker 1: trying to impress a dude that I thought was cute 277 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:34,439 Speaker 1: by talking about weed and smoking weed, and he was like, 278 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:37,720 Speaker 1: you know, I'm really over that now and I was 279 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:39,679 Speaker 1: like oh, and he was like, yeah, I'm just we're 280 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:42,800 Speaker 1: into pills, and I you know, I was I think 281 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 1: sixteen maybe at the time, and just slowly backed away 282 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:49,160 Speaker 1: because I was like, I don't you mean like i'd 283 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:53,159 Speaker 1: be profound. I like, I don't why. I don't understand it, 284 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:56,359 Speaker 1: but it's so so common and I'm talking to like 285 00:18:56,400 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 1: a middle class white dude. Yeah, I'm such like a 286 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:03,520 Speaker 1: sheltered goody two shoes though, like hearing someone. If I 287 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:04,920 Speaker 1: had heard someone say that to me, I would have 288 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:06,440 Speaker 1: been like, but you don't know what it's going to 289 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 1: do to you. Oh. I thought the same thing. I 290 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:11,119 Speaker 1: was like, why why would you do that? Um? And 291 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:15,840 Speaker 1: I would so what if it's a blood cinner or diuretic. 292 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:18,240 Speaker 1: I would like to report though, that both of these 293 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 1: guys that I've just referenced are like fully recovered and 294 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 1: they're both half away married and doing great, so good 295 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:31,760 Speaker 1: for them. Not everybody is. Uh So, if we look 296 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:35,920 Speaker 1: back at two thousand nine, uh, there were two hundred 297 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:40,840 Speaker 1: and fifty seven million prescriptions for pain killers dispensed, and 298 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 1: that was up forty eight percent from just nine years earlier. 299 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:49,680 Speaker 1: And in enough pain killers were prescribed to treat all 300 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:52,960 Speaker 1: two d forty two million adult Americans around the clock 301 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 1: for a month. In other words, reading between the lines, 302 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:00,639 Speaker 1: a lot of those pain killers were being averted to 303 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:06,880 Speaker 1: illicit and illegal uses. Yeah. And when I first read 304 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 1: those statistics, UM, I was astonished first and then wondering, 305 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:14,960 Speaker 1: how is it possible that so many pain killers are 306 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:20,240 Speaker 1: being prescribed. I have a story. Oh well, a former 307 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 1: coworker of mine UM at a previous job, UM had 308 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:28,359 Speaker 1: surgery and she was given pain killers to deal with 309 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 1: her surgery. And I'm not kidding you, dude, Like you 310 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:34,399 Speaker 1: know you for anyone who's ever had surgery before, you 311 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:36,159 Speaker 1: get a certain amount of pain killers and maybe you 312 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:39,680 Speaker 1: can get them reapt like once if you're the pain 313 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 1: is really bad, or if you get infection or something 314 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:47,600 Speaker 1: that needs pain killers. Um, she was calling like twice 315 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:52,919 Speaker 1: a month, and her doctor was refilling it every time. 316 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:57,879 Speaker 1: Pill mills total pill mills situation. She ended up getting 317 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:02,879 Speaker 1: fired for abusing pain killers at work, and and she 318 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:07,440 Speaker 1: was a middle class, middle aged white woman, and she 319 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:10,639 Speaker 1: had health insurance, and she had health insurance well. And 320 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:15,240 Speaker 1: we see though, all of this spiking, particularly in more 321 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:18,880 Speaker 1: rural areas because, come to find out in the two thousands, 322 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 1: you know, doctors, uh, we're having trouble directly treating issues 323 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 1: in rural areas because they're more remote, and so they 324 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 1: would just write a bunch of prescriptions for pain killers 325 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:34,760 Speaker 1: just cover up the pain. We especially if you're spread thin, 326 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:36,399 Speaker 1: you know, you might be the only doctor in the 327 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:41,160 Speaker 1: area for for for a long stretch, and so if 328 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:44,600 Speaker 1: you're overworked, if your patients are complaining of chronic pain, 329 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:47,600 Speaker 1: or if maybe you're just not a great doctor or 330 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:51,600 Speaker 1: responsible doctor, that too. But yeah, so more and more though, 331 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:55,280 Speaker 1: women have been the ones abusing pain killers in particular. 332 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:59,480 Speaker 1: According to the cdc UH, men still overdose on prescription 333 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 1: pain killers more often, but the number of women who 334 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:07,280 Speaker 1: are dying from prescription drug overdoses jumped four hundred percent 335 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 1: between compared to two for men, and that highest jump 336 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:19,959 Speaker 1: for prescription drug overdose death was among women to fifty four. 337 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:25,680 Speaker 1: By every day, eighteen women in this country were dying 338 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 1: from prescription drug overdoses and uh, you know the thing there, 339 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:34,760 Speaker 1: in terms of going to your doctor, getting pain killers 340 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 1: and then developing an addiction, women are more likely to 341 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:41,400 Speaker 1: suffer from chronic pain. They are more likely to then 342 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 1: be prescribed pain killers and for a longer amount of time, 343 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 1: and we tend to develop dependency issues faster, particularly not 344 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 1: only to opioids, but also to alcohol and marijuana thanks 345 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:58,720 Speaker 1: to physiological differences that separate us from men folk. Basically 346 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:00,960 Speaker 1: that we just hold on to those substances in our 347 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:04,200 Speaker 1: systems longer. Just side note, I really appreciate your use 348 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:06,520 Speaker 1: of men folks. Yeah, and it's like really serious discussion 349 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:12,560 Speaker 1: the men folks men folk. But another key factor to 350 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:15,600 Speaker 1: this puzzle is that the majority of overdoses happen when 351 00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:18,719 Speaker 1: those prescription pain killers are combined with other depressants like 352 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 1: alcohol or sedatives like ambient and xanax. You probably can 353 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:25,240 Speaker 1: see where this is going because women are twice as 354 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:28,320 Speaker 1: likely as men to have anxiety and seventy more likely 355 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:31,920 Speaker 1: to have depression, which means they get more of those medications, 356 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:35,120 Speaker 1: which means if they are also taking pain killers, they 357 00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 1: are more likely to experience dangerous drag interactions. And throughout 358 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 1: all of this research I kept thinking about Amy Winehouse 359 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:47,840 Speaker 1: and watching the Amy documentary, which I do highly recommend 360 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:51,960 Speaker 1: if you're whether or not you're a wine House fan, um, 361 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 1: because her official cause of death was alcohol. But like this, 362 00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:01,040 Speaker 1: the majority of ODIs are happening because you are xing things. 363 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:04,359 Speaker 1: Obviously she had had, you know, problems with heroin and 364 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:07,200 Speaker 1: cocaine and like all sorts of other hard drugs as 365 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 1: well well, especially if you are building up that tolerance 366 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 1: because suddenly the amount that you're using is so much 367 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:18,119 Speaker 1: higher than what you started at, but you don't feel 368 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:23,480 Speaker 1: as good, so to speak. And considering those physiological sex differences, 369 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:26,200 Speaker 1: you know, with our tolerance being lower than men typically, 370 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:29,040 Speaker 1: whether we're talking about booze or something like heroin. You know, 371 00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:32,439 Speaker 1: thinking about Amy Winehouse before she tied to me, she 372 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:34,919 Speaker 1: was tiny. She was already like a small woman, but 373 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,600 Speaker 1: she was just skin and bump. Yeah, And you know, 374 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 1: we we've focused this this episode is focusing mainly on 375 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:44,160 Speaker 1: on women versus men, but we also have to talk 376 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:47,120 Speaker 1: about l g B t Q folks. They are nine 377 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:52,080 Speaker 1: and a half times likelier to use heroin than straight 378 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:55,720 Speaker 1: men and women, and a lot of that relates back 379 00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 1: to all those mental health co occurring conditions we talked 380 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:03,760 Speaker 1: about earlier, anxiety and depression, things that stem from the 381 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 1: daily exposure to homophobia, discrimination, the threat of violence. It's 382 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:12,120 Speaker 1: just one more thing that that community has to deal with. 383 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 1: So as issues of you know, this painkiller addiction epidemic 384 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:23,840 Speaker 1: started to rise on regulators radars, you have the crackdown 385 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 1: on OxyContin, so the manufacturer has reformulated it to try 386 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:32,200 Speaker 1: to make it less habit forming um. And what happens 387 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:35,600 Speaker 1: is that if you now try to crush it up, 388 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 1: it turns into a gummy substance, and that is to 389 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 1: discourage people from being able to snort it. But there 390 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:47,679 Speaker 1: was a story on NPR not too long ago. They 391 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:51,640 Speaker 1: did a whole series on the heroine epidemic and they 392 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:57,720 Speaker 1: were shadowing woman who had the new oxycont pills. And 393 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 1: they've already figured out a way around, you know, the 394 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:03,920 Speaker 1: the gummy stuff. I think that they now just uh 395 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:09,480 Speaker 1: burn it, oh, you know, then smoke it. Yeah. So well, 396 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:14,159 Speaker 1: because of those changes to the drug that make it 397 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 1: more difficult to abuse, you see black market pharmaceuticals price spiking, 398 00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:25,200 Speaker 1: and basically right after that, you see cartels moving into 399 00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:29,879 Speaker 1: more rural areas suburban and rural areas from places like 400 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:33,880 Speaker 1: New York because suddenly there's a new market for heroin 401 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,760 Speaker 1: and it's a wider and more diverse market than ever before. 402 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:41,200 Speaker 1: So that's where you get this explosion. In these majority 403 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:46,199 Speaker 1: white rural areas. They typically have police forces that are 404 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:50,520 Speaker 1: spread way too thin. Um And like Vermont and New 405 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:54,600 Speaker 1: Hampshire are kind of leading the way in this unfortunately. 406 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:58,280 Speaker 1: Um And it was in an article in Rolling Stone 407 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:01,320 Speaker 1: that we were reading about this explosion in Vermont that 408 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:04,960 Speaker 1: cited one gay man who was, like, dude, it is 409 00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:08,680 Speaker 1: so boring up here, Like I have no social life, 410 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:11,440 Speaker 1: no sex life, nothing. And that's not to like pin 411 00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:15,600 Speaker 1: anything on on gay men, you know, certainly not. But 412 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 1: there's that goes back to that whole sensation seeking attribute 413 00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:24,080 Speaker 1: that we mentioned earlier that whether you are gay, straight, whatever, 414 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:29,520 Speaker 1: if you feel isolated and are looking for some change 415 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:34,040 Speaker 1: for change's sake, a lot of people are turning to 416 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:37,920 Speaker 1: drug use. I mean, and that's that's not surprising to hear. 417 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:40,760 Speaker 1: I mean, I think that you see that in smaller towns, 418 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:43,200 Speaker 1: even if we're just talking about alcohol. You know, it's 419 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:45,160 Speaker 1: like the image of what are we gonna do. Let's 420 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 1: just hang out on the Walmart parking lot and drink 421 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,480 Speaker 1: some for days. You know, boredom You telling me about 422 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:53,960 Speaker 1: your childhood condor. Uh, it was cobra malt liquor and 423 00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:57,199 Speaker 1: peach snaps and a cul de sac and not the 424 00:27:57,480 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 1: Walmart parking lot. But yes, a little bit. That's like 425 00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:04,359 Speaker 1: a country song. Well, we were in a relatively country town, Caroline. 426 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 1: But this is something echoed by Matthew Birmingham, who is 427 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:13,120 Speaker 1: commander of the Vermont Drug Task Force, saying I think 428 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:16,240 Speaker 1: he was speaking to rolling Stones, saying that listen, especially 429 00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:19,440 Speaker 1: when we're young, there's that feeling of being removed from 430 00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:21,480 Speaker 1: the world and there's a lack of you know, feeling 431 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:24,080 Speaker 1: like they're going to be consequences to what you're doing. 432 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:30,400 Speaker 1: You're almost invincible. Yeah, there is that that kittitude. Kittitude, 433 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:33,440 Speaker 1: lose the kittitude sometimes I need a little more kittitude. 434 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:38,240 Speaker 1: I know there's a balance, definitely. Yeah. And Birmingham's statement 435 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:41,680 Speaker 1: was echoed by Jesse Farnsworth, who works at the Howard Center, 436 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:45,600 Speaker 1: an organization that runs treatment clinics in Vermont, and Jesse 437 00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:48,320 Speaker 1: just said that you know, kids today don't feel like 438 00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:51,720 Speaker 1: they're a part of anything. And when people feel isolated, 439 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:54,560 Speaker 1: it's easy to want an escape from reality. I mean, 440 00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:58,080 Speaker 1: that's not saying that any person who feels isolated, bored, 441 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:00,800 Speaker 1: or whatever is going to immediately turn to heroin. But 442 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:05,280 Speaker 1: when you do have this explosion of heroin alongside people 443 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:08,760 Speaker 1: who perhaps are already using painkillers or perhaps seeking a 444 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:12,800 Speaker 1: new experience, that's like, that's a terrible combination of opportunity. 445 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:16,240 Speaker 1: And now that we have sort of laid out the 446 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:20,720 Speaker 1: general landscape of what's happening with the heroine epidemic, particularly 447 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:25,280 Speaker 1: in the United States and international, listeners really interested to 448 00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:28,960 Speaker 1: hear from you on this in Canada, that includes you. Um, 449 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:31,600 Speaker 1: but we're gonna take a quick break and come back 450 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 1: and spend the rest of the episode really focusing on 451 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:51,000 Speaker 1: heroin as it relates to women. So, in the nineteen fifties, 452 00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:57,120 Speaker 1: women made up just of haroin users, but now we 453 00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:01,520 Speaker 1: are a majority, we make up more more than Yeah, 454 00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:03,880 Speaker 1: that's a that's a gender gap that didn't need to 455 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:08,560 Speaker 1: be closed, I know. Uh. And if you're looking at 456 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:12,560 Speaker 1: the average first time heroin user, that person is most 457 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 1: likely a twenty three year old white woman. According to 458 00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:21,200 Speaker 1: the Journal of the American Medical Association psychiatry. And Uh, 459 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 1: one fact that I hadn't really thought of that came 460 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:26,840 Speaker 1: up in that Rolling Stone article about the heroin epidemic 461 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:29,640 Speaker 1: is that, you know, you have all these cartels and 462 00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 1: drug dealers moving into more suburban and rural areas from 463 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:34,840 Speaker 1: cities because they have all of these new markets that 464 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:39,200 Speaker 1: aren't really being policed maybe as strongly as some of 465 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:43,760 Speaker 1: the urban markets. And they're recruiting a lot of these 466 00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:47,000 Speaker 1: average twenty three year old, fresh faced white ladies to 467 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 1: traffic a lot of their drugs because like because white privilege, 468 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:54,640 Speaker 1: I don't know, because police are less likely to look 469 00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:58,000 Speaker 1: at some um white girl and be like, oh, you 470 00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:01,840 Speaker 1: must be trafficking heroin in your car, speaking of traffic. 471 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:05,840 Speaker 1: Doesn't the movie Traffic also have a plot line where 472 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,840 Speaker 1: it's the fresh faced, blonde white girl who is addicted 473 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:12,280 Speaker 1: to heroin. Oh, I don't know, I've never seen it. Finally, 474 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:15,160 Speaker 1: a movie you've seen that I've seen that you haven't. 475 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:20,480 Speaker 1: I know, Listeners isn't such a rare occurrence. Oh wow, Uh, 476 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:22,920 Speaker 1: it might not even be traffic, But I know there's 477 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:27,920 Speaker 1: a movie where that is the case. Um, and it 478 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:32,880 Speaker 1: seems like too. When we read about these white young women, 479 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:35,800 Speaker 1: it's also implied that they are cis gender and usually 480 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:38,520 Speaker 1: straight white young women as well. And I think that's 481 00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:42,560 Speaker 1: part of the reason why people are so concerned about this, 482 00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:45,720 Speaker 1: because it's like, oh, well, if if these these women 483 00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:48,600 Speaker 1: are doing it, then it must be a problem. Yeah. 484 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:51,040 Speaker 1: I mean the other side of that too, is that, 485 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:55,680 Speaker 1: as that article pointed out, you know, because the heroin 486 00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:59,560 Speaker 1: abuse epidemic is now aligning itself with what used to 487 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:03,440 Speaker 1: be the prescription painkiller epidemic. You know, you've got a 488 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,720 Speaker 1: lot of folks with disposable incomes who can afford to 489 00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:10,040 Speaker 1: head off to rehab or can continue to get high 490 00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:13,640 Speaker 1: without needing to resort to crime to get money to 491 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:16,800 Speaker 1: score their next batch of heroin. Or on the flip 492 00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:22,080 Speaker 1: side of that, if your forty dollar a pill uh 493 00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:26,240 Speaker 1: oxycotton or vicodin or percoset, whatever is costing you too much, 494 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:29,959 Speaker 1: guess what's cheaper now, you know, heroin. So it's become 495 00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:34,360 Speaker 1: a last resort for people who we're hooked on painkillers 496 00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:38,480 Speaker 1: but need something cheaper and more accessible but equally strong, 497 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 1: if not stronger, So they go for heroin. Yeah, but 498 00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:45,160 Speaker 1: but it's gonna be laced with stuff you guys, and 499 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:48,520 Speaker 1: I'm gonna get in your brain. I uh, please don't 500 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:52,120 Speaker 1: your heroin. Um. But but women are more likely to 501 00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:57,040 Speaker 1: be introduced to heroin injection, in particular by a sexual partner, uh, 502 00:32:57,160 --> 00:32:59,400 Speaker 1: and more likely to report feeling social pressure as a 503 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:01,640 Speaker 1: result of it to the National Institutes of Health. And 504 00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 1: that is what made me think of Amy Winehouse with 505 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:11,080 Speaker 1: her Her ex husband, Blake has now publicly said that 506 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:15,040 Speaker 1: Amy Winehouse first said heroin, you know, under his influence 507 00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:17,560 Speaker 1: because he did it first, and then they became a 508 00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:22,080 Speaker 1: heroin addicts together. He claims that they were shooting up 509 00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:26,920 Speaker 1: regularly for only, in quotes four months, and that she 510 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:30,440 Speaker 1: was actually worse when he was in jail. But if 511 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:33,920 Speaker 1: anyone who knows anything about Amy Winehouse and Blake Fielder 512 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:36,800 Speaker 1: civil is that his last name, uh knows that you 513 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:38,920 Speaker 1: can trust what Blake says about as far as you 514 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:42,479 Speaker 1: can throw him. Ditto her father. But of course this 515 00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:46,000 Speaker 1: isn't just a factor for celebrity couples. I mean, this 516 00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 1: is still the whole the whole issue of it being 517 00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:54,160 Speaker 1: something that happens in sexual relationships is a pretty common hallmark, 518 00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:57,360 Speaker 1: especially when we're talking about women in heroin. Yeah, and 519 00:33:57,600 --> 00:33:59,880 Speaker 1: when we are talking about women in heroine, we tended 520 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:02,520 Speaker 1: it and smaller doses, which could explain why men are 521 00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:04,840 Speaker 1: still four times as likely to die from a heroin 522 00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:08,640 Speaker 1: overdose the women are um And Earlier studies, also, like 523 00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:12,200 Speaker 1: from the drew some distinctions about how women use it. 524 00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:14,880 Speaker 1: Uh So, not only you know, are we likely to 525 00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:17,239 Speaker 1: get it from a sexual or romantic partner who's also 526 00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:19,600 Speaker 1: a drug user, but women are more likely to share 527 00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:23,760 Speaker 1: needles and received previously used injection equipment. And that's obviously 528 00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:27,400 Speaker 1: a major red flag for the spread of disease. But 529 00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:31,880 Speaker 1: going back to that International Journal of Drug Policy study, 530 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:35,080 Speaker 1: there was something there was an attribute of this of 531 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:37,920 Speaker 1: heroin use and abuse and dependency and recovery that I 532 00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:41,799 Speaker 1: had not considered at all before, which is social pressures 533 00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:45,800 Speaker 1: around appearance. So they found that both men and women 534 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:50,080 Speaker 1: tended to ignore personal appearance issues during those periods of 535 00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:55,240 Speaker 1: heavy use. But regardless, women still remained more concerned about 536 00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:59,640 Speaker 1: appearance both during use and during recovery. And there was 537 00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:02,920 Speaker 1: this big concern that as soon as they stopped using 538 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:05,600 Speaker 1: and they're gaining that healthy weight back that they had 539 00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:07,920 Speaker 1: lost when they were abusing drugs that they were going 540 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:10,920 Speaker 1: to look fat, and so then you have the added 541 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:15,200 Speaker 1: layer on top of struggling in recovery, you've got the 542 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:17,720 Speaker 1: add a layer of eating disorders that tend to surface 543 00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:20,080 Speaker 1: among people who are afraid of getting fat. First is 544 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:23,680 Speaker 1: the men who tended to like the added weight. They 545 00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:26,279 Speaker 1: were like, yeah, I'm getting compliments on how healthy I look, 546 00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:28,839 Speaker 1: so I must be getting better. So that's the weight game. 547 00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:31,879 Speaker 1: For men was an encouraging and supporting factor to getting better, 548 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:34,759 Speaker 1: but for women it was almost discouraging. Well, and then 549 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:38,640 Speaker 1: if we look at pregnant women, no surprise here that 550 00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:42,640 Speaker 1: heroin use is associated with low birth weight. UH. Infants 551 00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:47,880 Speaker 1: born dependent on heroin um babies can suffer from neonatal 552 00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:53,000 Speaker 1: abstinence syndrome, which is essentially when babies are born going 553 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:57,919 Speaker 1: through drug withdrawal and so they're crying constantly and are 554 00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:01,440 Speaker 1: just in physical pain. Yeah, And the thing is, like, 555 00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:04,759 Speaker 1: speaking of the nineties, it really wasn't until around the 556 00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:09,400 Speaker 1: nineties that women's addiction issues in general got specific attention, 557 00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:13,239 Speaker 1: and a woman centric push was super necessary because that 558 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:17,080 Speaker 1: early addiction literature either ignored them or portrayed them as 559 00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:21,759 Speaker 1: weaken and secure or somehow sicker and more disturbed than 560 00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:27,560 Speaker 1: male addicts. And women, they found have specific hurdles to 561 00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:32,160 Speaker 1: support and treatment and getting recovery that include social stigma. 562 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:35,080 Speaker 1: You you're a bad woman or a bad mother if 563 00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:38,560 Speaker 1: you let yourself get addicted to something. You've got issues 564 00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:40,920 Speaker 1: of childcare because hello, women are more likely to be 565 00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:44,040 Speaker 1: the ones responsible for it. So it's not like if 566 00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:46,799 Speaker 1: you've got three kids, but you're addicted to a substance, 567 00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:50,640 Speaker 1: including heroin, you know, maybe you feel you can't stop 568 00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:53,160 Speaker 1: everything and go to a center of some sort of 569 00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:57,759 Speaker 1: recovery facility. You've also got issues of transportation and unemployment. 570 00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:00,800 Speaker 1: You know, you might lose your job or be unable 571 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:04,080 Speaker 1: to find a job when you're stopping everything to try 572 00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:07,080 Speaker 1: to get recovered. Yeah, I mean there there is that 573 00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:13,720 Speaker 1: gendered stigma on female drug abusers, um, whether it's heroin 574 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:16,400 Speaker 1: or any kind of drug, because I think we do 575 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:21,600 Speaker 1: still perceive, you know, female drug addicts as more deviant 576 00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:24,960 Speaker 1: than men. It's like violating all of those feminine norms. 577 00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:29,359 Speaker 1: Weren't we supposed to be the moral centers of society? Well, 578 00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:31,840 Speaker 1: and if anything, the stereotype is that you are a 579 00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:36,720 Speaker 1: Valley of the dolls, like Mother's Little Helper, uh, Viking 580 00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:39,799 Speaker 1: and valium user. You know, like it's okay to stay 581 00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:42,279 Speaker 1: at home and take your little pink happy pill. But 582 00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:46,440 Speaker 1: heroin that's that's like aggressive. Yeah, I mean I also, Yeah, 583 00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:50,960 Speaker 1: I feel like anytime you have drug abuse and motherhood combined, 584 00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:55,160 Speaker 1: the stigma is doubled and tripled. But unfortunately it's often 585 00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:59,239 Speaker 1: something that goes hand in hand. Yeah. And that International 586 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:01,879 Speaker 1: Journal of Drug Policy study also pointed out the whole 587 00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:09,440 Speaker 1: thing with appearance and weight and drug using stigma. Uh, 588 00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:13,719 Speaker 1: all of that affects a woman's cultural capital, and that is, 589 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:17,239 Speaker 1: as we were talking about, a potential hurdle to recovery. Uh. 590 00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:20,680 Speaker 1: They wrote that if society has more onerous expectations of 591 00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:24,080 Speaker 1: women than men in terms of their appearance, behaviors, or 592 00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:27,200 Speaker 1: carrying obligations to others, this is likely to place more 593 00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:31,560 Speaker 1: material and psychological demands on women in recovery. So basically, like, 594 00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:34,879 Speaker 1: don't forget to smile. I'm saying that as a stand 595 00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:37,720 Speaker 1: in for like, make sure that you're thin and pretty 596 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,400 Speaker 1: and a good mother, and that you're healthy and that 597 00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:44,200 Speaker 1: you've got a job. All of these extra expectations like 598 00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:47,760 Speaker 1: don't forget to put on your lipstick. A plus side 599 00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:50,880 Speaker 1: when it comes to gender and drug abuse, though, is 600 00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:53,720 Speaker 1: that the same study we've been citing a lot found 601 00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:58,400 Speaker 1: that women do report more informal support, having an easier 602 00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:03,800 Speaker 1: time making non user friends, and are likelier to say 603 00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:07,560 Speaker 1: that their kids motivate them to kick the habit and 604 00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:11,200 Speaker 1: stay quean. Yeah, and there's actually, I mean, speaking of 605 00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:14,680 Speaker 1: women and kids, there's a great example of treatment coming 606 00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:17,000 Speaker 1: out of Iowa. It's this place called the Heart of Iowa. 607 00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:20,319 Speaker 1: It's a residential program for women with kids. UM. It 608 00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:24,160 Speaker 1: doesn't only treat heroin users. It treats women with a 609 00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:28,040 Speaker 1: variety of substance abuse issues. But it's been around for 610 00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:31,680 Speaker 1: like twenty years. UM. It was created in response to 611 00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:34,640 Speaker 1: a high percentage of women who were opting out of 612 00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:38,040 Speaker 1: residential treatment facilities because they didn't want to have to 613 00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:42,000 Speaker 1: abandon their children to foster care. UH. There are fewer 614 00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:44,560 Speaker 1: than twelve programs like this in Iowa, which means there's 615 00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:48,840 Speaker 1: a huge waiting list, which of course can complicate recovery. UM. 616 00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:51,399 Speaker 1: There are other programs that you have to be like 617 00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:55,160 Speaker 1: a certain amount pregnant, you have to be like a 618 00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:58,160 Speaker 1: certain amount into your pregnancy before they'll accept you. So 619 00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:01,440 Speaker 1: that like dead space ace of having to wait until 620 00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:04,439 Speaker 1: you're somehow pregnant enough to go into the facility can 621 00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:08,360 Speaker 1: also complicate recovery. But at this heart of Iowa Place, 622 00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:11,800 Speaker 1: I mean, the women have full days from eight thirty 623 00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:15,000 Speaker 1: to seven at night. Um, they have a comprehensive curriculum 624 00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:18,239 Speaker 1: where they can learn strategies for relapse prevention, even how 625 00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:21,480 Speaker 1: to quit smoking, but also how to budget and and 626 00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:26,120 Speaker 1: parenting skills. They can attend group therapy, individual counseling, and 627 00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:29,359 Speaker 1: the facility even has like an outreach branch that can 628 00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:33,680 Speaker 1: also reach the partners and or spouses of these women 629 00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:37,040 Speaker 1: in different facilities, so that there's a more holistic, whole 630 00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:39,919 Speaker 1: family approach to recovery. But I mean they also get 631 00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:44,760 Speaker 1: mental health counseling, life skills training, on site childcare, and 632 00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:48,080 Speaker 1: and most importantly those furnished on site apartments that let 633 00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:51,759 Speaker 1: the women have the dignity of a private space that 634 00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:55,160 Speaker 1: they can return to at night after the day is over. Yeah, 635 00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:58,840 Speaker 1: I mean this sounds like like the ideal situation for 636 00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:03,520 Speaker 1: an excessive bowl rehabilitation facility. I'm not not talking about 637 00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:07,640 Speaker 1: like a celebrityhab you know, bazillions of dollars kind of place. 638 00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:10,560 Speaker 1: But unfortunately, I mean, all of that relies so much 639 00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:14,200 Speaker 1: on how many you know, how much government funds are 640 00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:17,400 Speaker 1: available to make that happen, And a lot of times 641 00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:21,000 Speaker 1: the answer is there's there's not too much, especially as 642 00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:25,040 Speaker 1: the demand is increasing UM. And that leads us to 643 00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:31,000 Speaker 1: questions about medication for treatment. Because you have methodone, which 644 00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:37,200 Speaker 1: is probably the heroin treatment medication we're most familiar with UM. 645 00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:41,919 Speaker 1: There's also a newer one called bupren nor Fine. There's 646 00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:44,719 Speaker 1: also now trek zone that act on the same parts 647 00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:48,919 Speaker 1: of the brain that heroin does. But both methodone and 648 00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:54,720 Speaker 1: buprenorphine suppressed withdrawal symptoms and relief cravings. Now trek zone 649 00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:59,600 Speaker 1: blocks those opioid receptors. And if I'm recalling correctly, one 650 00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:03,719 Speaker 1: big prints between methodone, which can be addictive UM and 651 00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:11,759 Speaker 1: buprenorphine is that beauprenorphine does not UH, it blocks the 652 00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:16,239 Speaker 1: same like drug and reward pathways that methodone does. That 653 00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:20,360 Speaker 1: can lead to more addiction. Right, And there's questions too, 654 00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:23,520 Speaker 1: you know, when you talk about UM parents, women with 655 00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:28,720 Speaker 1: children of whether methodone and buprenorphine are safe for pregnant women, 656 00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:32,840 Speaker 1: and methodone is definitely still the preferred and recommended treatment, 657 00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:37,120 Speaker 1: although it is associated with that neonatal abstinate syndrome that 658 00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:41,560 Speaker 1: can affect newborns. And there was actually study that found 659 00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:46,160 Speaker 1: that compared with methodone, buprinorphine was actually better than methodone 660 00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:48,920 Speaker 1: in reducing those withdrawal symptoms in newborns. But a lot 661 00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:53,120 Speaker 1: of doctors are are uncomfortable using it just because it's 662 00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:56,480 Speaker 1: it hasn't been as extensively used in pregnant women, so 663 00:42:56,520 --> 00:43:00,560 Speaker 1: there's still some question. Um, you also have no locksone, 664 00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:03,160 Speaker 1: which is used as an emergency treatment to counteract the 665 00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:04,799 Speaker 1: effects of an o D, And there have been a 666 00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:08,640 Speaker 1: lot of articles and NPR segments, segments for instance, that 667 00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:14,560 Speaker 1: I've heard about police forces and outreach groups carrying shots 668 00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:17,520 Speaker 1: of alex and with them so if they encounter someone 669 00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:20,160 Speaker 1: on the street who is experiencing an overdose, they can 670 00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:23,600 Speaker 1: inject them with this rather than just either letting the 671 00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:28,399 Speaker 1: person die or shipping them off to jail immediately. Yeah, 672 00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:31,880 Speaker 1: so speaking of jail, I mean, this is such a 673 00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:36,400 Speaker 1: complicated issue when it comes to pregnant women. Um, pregnant 674 00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:41,239 Speaker 1: addicts in particular because you have states like Tennessee, which 675 00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:45,160 Speaker 1: became the first state to pass a law that would 676 00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:49,040 Speaker 1: punish drug addicted pregnant women. So pregnant women who take 677 00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:53,680 Speaker 1: narcotics can be charged with aggravated assault to their fetus. 678 00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:58,160 Speaker 1: But it has no targeted drug treatment programs for pregnant 679 00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:00,880 Speaker 1: women rather than treating the to you, you're just sending 680 00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:04,080 Speaker 1: them to jail, and that it's not going to solve 681 00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:07,880 Speaker 1: anything in NBR, We're gonna keep reverencing NPR. This episode 682 00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:10,640 Speaker 1: was brought to you essentially by like Morning Edition and Marketplace, 683 00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:14,520 Speaker 1: because I believe it was on Marketplace or either that 684 00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:17,000 Speaker 1: are all things considered. I forget because they come on 685 00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:19,920 Speaker 1: back to back every evening here in Atlanta. But they 686 00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:24,959 Speaker 1: did a whole heartbreaking but such important series on these 687 00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:29,840 Speaker 1: women who are become addicted to heroin. They become pregnant, 688 00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:34,080 Speaker 1: and they have to make this choice between going to 689 00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:38,440 Speaker 1: the doctor and then finding out that they are addicts 690 00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:43,080 Speaker 1: and then them being sent off to jail or trying 691 00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:48,279 Speaker 1: to manage their addiction through a pregnancy, and then of 692 00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:50,800 Speaker 1: course when they deliver, if they go deliver at a hospital, 693 00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:56,279 Speaker 1: they might be you know, risking being arrested as well. Yeah, 694 00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:58,920 Speaker 1: the article that we were reading about that Tennessee law 695 00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:03,880 Speaker 1: made the very important point that the states that punish 696 00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:08,600 Speaker 1: pregnant women who are addicted to drugs or alcohol tend 697 00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:12,520 Speaker 1: to be the states that lack any sort of supportive 698 00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:17,479 Speaker 1: treatment program for such women. It's not like, oh, well, 699 00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:19,880 Speaker 1: we're gonna try to treat you, and if you're still 700 00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:22,880 Speaker 1: abusing medications, then we'll send you to jail because we 701 00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:26,200 Speaker 1: tried our best. There's there's no try try harder. And again, 702 00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:30,040 Speaker 1: it's just punish the pregnant women for what they're doing 703 00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:34,680 Speaker 1: to their fetus. And since the heroin epidemic has been 704 00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:39,320 Speaker 1: so predominant among white people, you have more white middle 705 00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:44,719 Speaker 1: class families publicly raising their voices against tough war on 706 00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:49,960 Speaker 1: drugs policies, advocating for classifying heroindependence as a disease not 707 00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:53,520 Speaker 1: a crime, and they're lobbying state houses, holding rallies, and 708 00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:59,840 Speaker 1: starting nonprofits. And uh, it's quite a shift from what 709 00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:03,719 Speaker 1: a lot of white middle class families thought about tough 710 00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:07,200 Speaker 1: war on drugs policies when a lot of the people 711 00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:11,399 Speaker 1: being arrested were people of color. Yeah, oh, it's it's 712 00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:14,920 Speaker 1: a complete one eighty because now you're having more of 713 00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:19,759 Speaker 1: these white families losing family members to heroin, whether it 714 00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:23,800 Speaker 1: is death, an overdose, or whether it is going to prison. 715 00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:30,120 Speaker 1: The White House drugs are Michael Boticelli was very explicit. 716 00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:32,440 Speaker 1: He was like, Yeah, these people know how to call 717 00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:34,640 Speaker 1: a legislator, they know how to get angry with their 718 00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:37,200 Speaker 1: insurance company, they know how to advocate, and they have 719 00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:41,840 Speaker 1: been so instrumental in changing the conversation. And it's interesting 720 00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:44,359 Speaker 1: to see the effect these families are having in this 721 00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:48,040 Speaker 1: push to move heroin abuse away from being a crime 722 00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:50,040 Speaker 1: and more toward a disease. You know, we cited that 723 00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:53,440 Speaker 1: study out of Illinois at the top of the podcast. 724 00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:56,319 Speaker 1: It was actually I mean, yes, it was done by 725 00:46:56,320 --> 00:47:00,200 Speaker 1: a foundation, but it was actually funded by like parents 726 00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:05,880 Speaker 1: and grandparents. They helped fund this investigation into used and 727 00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:10,719 Speaker 1: abuse of heroin by suburban people. Uh, and you know, 728 00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:13,000 Speaker 1: they found all of these important aspects of it about 729 00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:16,520 Speaker 1: like young people who don't see the consequences of their 730 00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:20,840 Speaker 1: heroin use and abuse, about sensation seeking among young people 731 00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:25,160 Speaker 1: in suburban areas. And I mean, where was that for 732 00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:29,120 Speaker 1: the crack epidemic or really any other drugdemic. Including heroin 733 00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:31,919 Speaker 1: twenty years ago. Yeah. I mean that just throws all 734 00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:36,600 Speaker 1: of the classism and racism wrapped up in our drug 735 00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:40,600 Speaker 1: policies into stark relief. I mean, and and drugs are Botticelli. 736 00:47:41,520 --> 00:47:43,440 Speaker 1: He called it like he saw it. I mean, he 737 00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:47,880 Speaker 1: said quote because the demographics of people affected are more white, 738 00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:53,840 Speaker 1: more middle class. These are parents who are empowered. So 739 00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:59,160 Speaker 1: I mean, I absolutely support the concept of classifying heroin 740 00:47:59,239 --> 00:48:02,919 Speaker 1: dependence in other drug dependencies as diseases and treating them 741 00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:08,760 Speaker 1: as such. Um, and steering away from the criminality aspect 742 00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:12,520 Speaker 1: of just throwing them in prison and letting taxpayers pay 743 00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:19,600 Speaker 1: far more for imprisoning them than it costs to treat people. Um. 744 00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:23,400 Speaker 1: But I think we also have to take a step 745 00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:26,520 Speaker 1: back to and ask that question that you just did 746 00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:29,040 Speaker 1: of like, well, why are recently paying attention to this now? 747 00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:34,200 Speaker 1: And maybe we need to also, uh spread these resources 748 00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:37,120 Speaker 1: and all of this interest not only to white heroin 749 00:48:37,160 --> 00:48:42,600 Speaker 1: addicts in suburbia, but also to more inner city areas 750 00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:45,360 Speaker 1: that have drug problems but they don't have all of 751 00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:49,640 Speaker 1: those well funded grandparents who can somehow contact a foundation 752 00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:53,800 Speaker 1: and pay for a study. Yeah. And this is something 753 00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:57,320 Speaker 1: that Kimberly Williams Crenshaw brought up. She specializes in racial 754 00:48:57,320 --> 00:48:59,640 Speaker 1: issues at Columbia and U c l A Law schools. 755 00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:03,080 Speaker 1: She is also if you're like that name sounds familiar 756 00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:05,600 Speaker 1: to me as a seminty listener who's well educated and 757 00:49:05,640 --> 00:49:10,000 Speaker 1: curious about life. Uh cringe. Shaw also introduced intersectionality to 758 00:49:10,040 --> 00:49:14,680 Speaker 1: feminist theory. Hello, but she says this new turn to 759 00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:18,160 Speaker 1: a more compassionate view of those addicted to heroin is welcome, 760 00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:22,400 Speaker 1: but one cannot help notice that had this compassion existed 761 00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:25,360 Speaker 1: for African Americans caught up in addiction and the behaviors 762 00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:30,040 Speaker 1: that produces the devastating impact of mass incarceration upon entire 763 00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:34,600 Speaker 1: communities would never have happened. Oh yeah, I mean, like 764 00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:38,120 Speaker 1: there there are so many aspects of of privilege coming 765 00:49:38,239 --> 00:49:42,040 Speaker 1: up in this and and again it's not to say like, oh, 766 00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:45,040 Speaker 1: white people don't deserve any help for their drug addiction, 767 00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:46,800 Speaker 1: but it's like we've got to look at the whole system, 768 00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:49,880 Speaker 1: because the whole system is broken. UM. And how you 769 00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:53,600 Speaker 1: have a lot of these UM activist parents who have 770 00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:57,200 Speaker 1: lost children to hero and epidemics. UM. Even just paying 771 00:49:57,200 --> 00:50:02,560 Speaker 1: attention to language preferring to use words like addict in 772 00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:07,120 Speaker 1: lieu of junkie. Yeah. Yeah, well yeah, you know, and um, 773 00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:09,279 Speaker 1: I mean, one thing I want to say about all 774 00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:12,920 Speaker 1: of this too is um as it also kind of 775 00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:16,640 Speaker 1: relates to issues with STDs and her pies, things that 776 00:50:16,719 --> 00:50:21,040 Speaker 1: are really common but highly highly highly stigmatized because of 777 00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:26,360 Speaker 1: a lot of misunderstanding and silence around it. Heroin UM 778 00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:32,880 Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily connote homeless person, you know, prone to crime, 779 00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:36,439 Speaker 1: sitting on the corner. Yeah, as Yeah, most drugs don't 780 00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:40,799 Speaker 1: necessarily connote that, right, And we need to re you know, 781 00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:44,239 Speaker 1: and we need to collectively shift our mindsets away from 782 00:50:44,239 --> 00:50:45,799 Speaker 1: that because in a lot of ways, that is very 783 00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:49,600 Speaker 1: classics and prejudice. Because I have seen heroin. I've seen 784 00:50:49,640 --> 00:50:52,759 Speaker 1: it at a party with my own eyes and seen 785 00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:55,440 Speaker 1: people who are on heroin, and I have known people 786 00:50:55,480 --> 00:51:00,160 Speaker 1: who have gone to rehab for heroin UM and all 787 00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:03,640 Speaker 1: of those people I'm talking about our white middle class 788 00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:06,680 Speaker 1: and a lot of them college educated. Yeah, And I 789 00:51:06,719 --> 00:51:09,840 Speaker 1: mean I think, you know, we talk about the important 790 00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:14,800 Speaker 1: shifts that we need, and the demographic shift is behind 791 00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:18,160 Speaker 1: a lot of changing policies. I mean, you know, Vermont 792 00:51:19,600 --> 00:51:23,400 Speaker 1: heroin US is now so concentrated in that tiny state 793 00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:28,040 Speaker 1: of Vermont that their governor, Peter Shimlin, for instance, is 794 00:51:28,080 --> 00:51:33,279 Speaker 1: now expanding treatment programs and helping addicts get into those 795 00:51:33,320 --> 00:51:35,960 Speaker 1: programs instead of just sending them to prison. And these 796 00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:39,040 Speaker 1: are tactics that on the national level, people are starting 797 00:51:39,120 --> 00:51:42,440 Speaker 1: to take notice of and saying, oh, maybe we do 798 00:51:42,600 --> 00:51:46,439 Speaker 1: need to treat the root causes of addiction. We need 799 00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:51,240 Speaker 1: to focus our money and energy and effort on mental 800 00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:55,240 Speaker 1: health counseling and support. We need to understand mental health 801 00:51:55,280 --> 00:51:59,160 Speaker 1: and trauma better. We need to support people who have 802 00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:03,560 Speaker 1: been led to abuse substances rather than treating them as criminals, 803 00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:07,480 Speaker 1: because that doesn't really Throwing people into jail does not 804 00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:10,120 Speaker 1: fix any of these root causes. We zeero it in 805 00:52:10,120 --> 00:52:13,719 Speaker 1: on trauma early in the podcast because it's important to 806 00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:17,759 Speaker 1: talk about that because trauma doesn't only affect someone you know, 807 00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:21,640 Speaker 1: in a poor area of town. Trauma cuts across every 808 00:52:21,680 --> 00:52:25,560 Speaker 1: type of demographic and so as does the use of 809 00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:28,040 Speaker 1: multiple kinds of drugs, which is also a predictor for 810 00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:30,440 Speaker 1: heroin use. I mean, this is nothing that's exclusive to 811 00:52:30,520 --> 00:52:35,000 Speaker 1: one demographic. Yeah, I mean, and especially when it comes 812 00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:38,839 Speaker 1: to heroin and opiate addiction. Your chances for relapse are 813 00:52:38,880 --> 00:52:42,840 Speaker 1: so high that if we treat it, you know, solely 814 00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:45,239 Speaker 1: by tossing them in jail, you're gonna have a high 815 00:52:45,280 --> 00:52:48,879 Speaker 1: recidivism rate. You know, it's gonna happen. And I mean 816 00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:53,480 Speaker 1: treating it more as an addiction and a health issue 817 00:52:53,640 --> 00:52:56,839 Speaker 1: is going to be more cost effective overall for all 818 00:52:56,880 --> 00:53:00,040 Speaker 1: of us because these are our taxpayer dollars paying for it. 819 00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:02,200 Speaker 1: Because you have to remember that this is not an 820 00:53:02,200 --> 00:53:07,279 Speaker 1: individual problem, one person's, one woman's uh. Heroin addiction can 821 00:53:07,320 --> 00:53:10,680 Speaker 1: potentially be the spoken you know, a whole wheel of 822 00:53:10,719 --> 00:53:14,759 Speaker 1: issues such as sex, work and a s CDs and 823 00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:18,560 Speaker 1: childcare and on and on and on, and we're we're 824 00:53:18,600 --> 00:53:21,400 Speaker 1: a community here, we're all affected by this, and like 825 00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:24,479 Speaker 1: just stigmatizing this one group and saying like, oh, they're 826 00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:28,600 Speaker 1: just broken, horrible people. Just get them out of my sight. 827 00:53:28,760 --> 00:53:31,680 Speaker 1: Like just because we don't see them doesn't mean that 828 00:53:32,360 --> 00:53:35,160 Speaker 1: the problem goes away exactly. And that's why you see 829 00:53:35,239 --> 00:53:38,080 Speaker 1: like in places like Seattle, which I think is the 830 00:53:38,160 --> 00:53:42,360 Speaker 1: first to try this, maybe Vancouver also in Canada, but 831 00:53:43,040 --> 00:53:47,200 Speaker 1: the Seattle Mayor is actually backed opening safe consumption sites 832 00:53:47,320 --> 00:53:52,320 Speaker 1: for addicts, places where um, you can get clean needles 833 00:53:52,360 --> 00:53:58,360 Speaker 1: and supervision and anti O D medications UM. But basically, 834 00:53:58,520 --> 00:54:01,080 Speaker 1: you know, addiction and crim records can keep a lot 835 00:54:01,120 --> 00:54:04,560 Speaker 1: of addicts out of shelters and out of facilities and 836 00:54:04,560 --> 00:54:07,960 Speaker 1: things like that, UM, And so like, how is that 837 00:54:08,040 --> 00:54:11,799 Speaker 1: helping anyone? Because then you are likely to see the 838 00:54:11,880 --> 00:54:15,680 Speaker 1: domino effect of you know, staying on the streets, continuing 839 00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:22,120 Speaker 1: to uh, potentially use unsafe needles and practices, um, getting 840 00:54:22,520 --> 00:54:26,640 Speaker 1: jailed for your drug use and and the cycle just continues. 841 00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:29,279 Speaker 1: So it'll be interesting to see what the effects are 842 00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:33,080 Speaker 1: if if the Seattle Safe Consumption Site thing goes through well, 843 00:54:33,080 --> 00:54:38,680 Speaker 1: and that's also going to depend on what local communities 844 00:54:38,680 --> 00:54:42,080 Speaker 1: decide on because it might have been in West Virginia 845 00:54:42,239 --> 00:54:43,759 Speaker 1: or Vermont. This was something that came up in that 846 00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:50,320 Speaker 1: Rolling Stone article where a rehab facility specifically for heroine, 847 00:54:50,360 --> 00:54:52,520 Speaker 1: like a treatment center was going to open in the 848 00:54:52,600 --> 00:54:55,400 Speaker 1: small town where there had been a massive problem with heroin. 849 00:54:56,040 --> 00:54:59,480 Speaker 1: But the people living there like vetoed it because they're like, 850 00:54:59,520 --> 00:55:02,080 Speaker 1: we don't that here, we don't want those, you know, 851 00:55:02,600 --> 00:55:07,759 Speaker 1: just attracting more addicts. Was like there's a backwards I know, 852 00:55:07,920 --> 00:55:11,520 Speaker 1: and that's the stigma at work, and I I mean, 853 00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:15,319 Speaker 1: I want to hear from listeners about this because I'm 854 00:55:15,360 --> 00:55:18,560 Speaker 1: sure there are so many complexities to this issue, especially 855 00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:25,800 Speaker 1: when it comes to treatment UM that we haven't acknowledged UM. 856 00:55:25,880 --> 00:55:28,440 Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean, I just want to open this 857 00:55:28,520 --> 00:55:31,640 Speaker 1: up now to listeners this year. What you think, especially 858 00:55:31,680 --> 00:55:36,520 Speaker 1: because we have such a geographically diverse audience that we 859 00:55:37,480 --> 00:55:40,360 Speaker 1: probably have people listening right now who are in towns 860 00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:44,279 Speaker 1: in areas where heroin has become more of a problem UM, 861 00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:47,960 Speaker 1: or if you were in an area where you've had 862 00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:52,880 Speaker 1: a successful treatment systems set up, or if you just 863 00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:56,799 Speaker 1: know someone who's dealt with this. We want to hear 864 00:55:56,840 --> 00:55:59,400 Speaker 1: everything that you'd like to share with us. Mom Stuff 865 00:55:59,440 --> 00:56:01,920 Speaker 1: at how stuff works dot com is our email address. 866 00:56:02,320 --> 00:56:04,960 Speaker 1: You can also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or 867 00:56:05,040 --> 00:56:07,880 Speaker 1: messages on Facebook. And we've got a couple of messages 868 00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:14,719 Speaker 1: to share with you right now. Okay, I have a 869 00:56:14,800 --> 00:56:18,680 Speaker 1: letter here from Sarah. She was writing into us in 870 00:56:18,760 --> 00:56:22,879 Speaker 1: response to our Libido Liberation episode where we talked to 871 00:56:22,960 --> 00:56:27,239 Speaker 1: Maria Finitzo, who's a filmmaker, UM, and she wants to 872 00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:31,319 Speaker 1: write us about the misconception about the Immaculate conception. And 873 00:56:31,719 --> 00:56:34,279 Speaker 1: Sarah was not the only person to write in about this, 874 00:56:34,360 --> 00:56:38,280 Speaker 1: so I definitely wanted to address this point that she made. 875 00:56:38,760 --> 00:56:40,839 Speaker 1: She said, I wanted to point out a mistake that 876 00:56:40,880 --> 00:56:44,360 Speaker 1: many people make with the term immaculate conception. Many people 877 00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:47,480 Speaker 1: believe that this refers to the sex reconception of Jesus 878 00:56:47,480 --> 00:56:51,400 Speaker 1: that preserves Mary's virginity. This would be the doctrine of incarnation. However, 879 00:56:51,920 --> 00:56:55,799 Speaker 1: the immaculate conception actually refers to the conception of Mary herself. 880 00:56:56,280 --> 00:56:59,440 Speaker 1: Mary was conceived by normal biological means by her parents, 881 00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:01,160 Speaker 1: but God made it so that she was free from 882 00:57:01,160 --> 00:57:03,560 Speaker 1: original sin because she would later become the mother of 883 00:57:03,640 --> 00:57:07,080 Speaker 1: Jesus Christ. In Catholic doctrine, original sin is something that 884 00:57:07,120 --> 00:57:09,080 Speaker 1: all men and women are born with as a result 885 00:57:09,120 --> 00:57:11,160 Speaker 1: of the disobedience of Adam and Eve and their fall 886 00:57:11,239 --> 00:57:14,040 Speaker 1: from Eden. Well, a big to do is made about 887 00:57:14,040 --> 00:57:16,160 Speaker 1: Mary being a virgin when she gives birth to Jesus. 888 00:57:16,200 --> 00:57:18,880 Speaker 1: The immaculate conception is a reference to her own purity 889 00:57:18,920 --> 00:57:22,400 Speaker 1: and elevation above all other mortal men and women. This 890 00:57:22,480 --> 00:57:24,000 Speaker 1: is what makes her worthy of being the mother of 891 00:57:24,080 --> 00:57:26,280 Speaker 1: Christ and upholding a very high place of reverence within 892 00:57:26,360 --> 00:57:30,240 Speaker 1: the Catholic Church. My mother was raised to strict Catholic. 893 00:57:30,280 --> 00:57:32,720 Speaker 1: While she no longer considers herself one, she still has 894 00:57:32,760 --> 00:57:35,240 Speaker 1: a strong respect for many of their philosophies. She was 895 00:57:35,280 --> 00:57:36,880 Speaker 1: the first person to point out to me that so 896 00:57:36,920 --> 00:57:40,080 Speaker 1: many people don't use the Immaculate Conception correctly. I find 897 00:57:40,120 --> 00:57:43,440 Speaker 1: theology fascinating and loved reading about this. After she corrected me, 898 00:57:43,720 --> 00:57:45,640 Speaker 1: keep up the good work. I look forward to diving 899 00:57:45,680 --> 00:57:50,440 Speaker 1: into your latest podcast about Lisa Frank, Oh Sarah, speaking 900 00:57:50,480 --> 00:57:54,600 Speaker 1: of Lisa Frank and then therefore speaking of unicorns, I 901 00:57:54,640 --> 00:57:58,240 Speaker 1: hope that you also find our conversation about unicorns and 902 00:57:58,440 --> 00:58:02,200 Speaker 1: Jesus and purity and ruginity interesting in that episode as well. 903 00:58:03,440 --> 00:58:06,680 Speaker 1: Oh man, Jesus and unicorns, what a combo? I have 904 00:58:06,760 --> 00:58:10,520 Speaker 1: a letter here from a Christian with a K about 905 00:58:10,560 --> 00:58:17,400 Speaker 1: our episode on exercise and breasts, subject line Army boobs. 906 00:58:17,880 --> 00:58:20,400 Speaker 1: She writes, I was in the Army for eight years 907 00:58:20,440 --> 00:58:23,760 Speaker 1: and always struggled with the classic Army activity of running. 908 00:58:24,160 --> 00:58:26,400 Speaker 1: It took about two years of running with massive groups 909 00:58:26,400 --> 00:58:29,720 Speaker 1: of people, primarily men, before I was alerted to what 910 00:58:29,760 --> 00:58:32,680 Speaker 1: was holding me back. One day after a rough run, 911 00:58:32,800 --> 00:58:35,120 Speaker 1: a senior ranking man came up to me and studies 912 00:58:35,200 --> 00:58:38,720 Speaker 1: life changing words listen. None of these other guys are 913 00:58:38,720 --> 00:58:40,200 Speaker 1: going to tell you this, but you need to know 914 00:58:40,600 --> 00:58:43,920 Speaker 1: your run sucks because you're cradling your boobs instead of 915 00:58:43,920 --> 00:58:46,960 Speaker 1: pumping your arms, and you don't even realize it. I 916 00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:48,880 Speaker 1: took a quick job to see if he was right, 917 00:58:48,960 --> 00:58:51,720 Speaker 1: and by golly, he was. I felt like I was 918 00:58:51,760 --> 00:58:54,400 Speaker 1: pumping my arms, but I was actually cradling my c 919 00:58:54,600 --> 00:58:57,600 Speaker 1: slash d cups with my forearms. I quickly went and 920 00:58:57,640 --> 00:59:00,640 Speaker 1: got myself some new, better fitting sports bra and my 921 00:59:00,760 --> 00:59:05,320 Speaker 1: runtime immediately improved. Huh, what do you know? And hey, 922 00:59:05,360 --> 00:59:09,480 Speaker 1: you know what red dude alert for, like talking to 923 00:59:09,520 --> 00:59:12,320 Speaker 1: a woman about her breasts in a respectful manner and 924 00:59:12,520 --> 00:59:18,360 Speaker 1: pulling her aside. Yeah, and not shaming her. Man. Well done, dude, 925 00:59:19,080 --> 00:59:21,080 Speaker 1: she says. I love you, ladies, and thanks for what 926 00:59:21,120 --> 00:59:23,600 Speaker 1: you're doing. Well, thanks for sharing that with us, Chris 927 00:59:23,600 --> 00:59:27,120 Speaker 1: sincas Um, I have a feeling that that might set 928 00:59:27,120 --> 00:59:30,560 Speaker 1: off a lightbulb in some other runners ears as they're 929 00:59:30,600 --> 00:59:33,800 Speaker 1: hearing this. And now I'm curious about my running form. 930 00:59:34,040 --> 00:59:35,840 Speaker 1: But if you have any tips to share with us 931 00:59:35,880 --> 00:59:38,680 Speaker 1: on running or just anything at all, Mom stuff at 932 00:59:38,720 --> 00:59:41,520 Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com is our email address and 933 00:59:41,560 --> 00:59:43,520 Speaker 1: for links to all of our social media as well 934 00:59:43,560 --> 00:59:46,680 Speaker 1: as all of our blogs, videos, and podcasts with our sources. 935 00:59:47,000 --> 00:59:50,600 Speaker 1: So you can learn more about women in the heroin epidemic, 936 00:59:51,080 --> 00:59:58,160 Speaker 1: head on over to Stuff Mom Never Told You dot com. 937 00:59:58,360 --> 01:00:00,840 Speaker 1: For more on this and thousands of other topics, visit 938 01:00:00,880 --> 01:00:09,800 Speaker 1: how stuff Works dot com