Speaker 1: John McEnroe. It seems everybody has wanted to meet him
Speaker 1: and hang out, Keith Richards to Andy Warhol to Nelson
Speaker 1: Mandela and many others. For me it's been great fun
Speaker 1: to go from a fan of his about forty years
Speaker 1: ago to a friend. We've shared the greatest offices in tennis,
Speaker 1: Wimbledon's bunker, the Arthurs Stadium booth. I have learned from
Speaker 1: him and been challenged by him. John's passion for tennis
Speaker 1: and pride and still being a big part of it
Speaker 1: with his work in TV and the John mcernow tennis
Speaker 1: academy in New York. That always inspires me. By the way,
Speaker 1: we recorded this just before the U S Open, Serena
Speaker 1: Swan Song and before Roger Federer's retirement, so my reaction
Speaker 1: to those big events are posted on my instagram. But,
Speaker 1: as you're about to hear, John is a man of
Speaker 1: many layers and great depth. I get asked all the
Speaker 1: time what's Mac and Roe really like? This will open
Speaker 1: that window pretty wide. So here's Johnny Mac. So, John,
Speaker 1: we're at Wimbledon this summer. You call a match for ESPN,
Speaker 1: later call another match for BBC, which is a normal
Speaker 1: thing for you. Then we have a conversation and I say, Hey,
Speaker 1: a pearl jam tonight Hyde Park. You'RE gonna be able
Speaker 1: to make it? You said no, I don't think so.
Speaker 1: I gotta DO BBC Studio. It's kind of a bummer
Speaker 1: because I know you're a huge fan and a friend
Speaker 1: of the man. So I go to Hyde Park. It's
Speaker 1: this amazing show. Eddie vetter is inspired. The sunset, the
Speaker 1: moon is rising. At the end of the show they
Speaker 1: play rocket in the free world, covering Neil Young's classic
Speaker 1: one verse into it. Enter stage left Johnny Mac, guitar
Speaker 1: strapped over his neck, playing with the band. I think
Speaker 1: like holy ship, you didn't know if you're gonna make
Speaker 1: the show and you're on stage with them. I mean
Speaker 1: they call that bucket list s up. Obvious for sure.
Speaker 1: So yeah, that was one of the few occasions. It's
Speaker 1: the only occasion in the open ear that one of
Speaker 1: the men's semi was a default. So in this one case,
Speaker 1: even though I was very much looking forward to seeing
Speaker 1: curios playing the doll, when that didn't happen, then there
Speaker 1: wasn't really a late show I had to do. So whila,
Speaker 1: there I go. Actually, I played a show a few
Speaker 1: years back, just before the pandemic charity show where I
Speaker 1: played with my own band in Seattle, ironically, and Eddie
Speaker 1: came to the show with my buddy Chris Chelios, and
Speaker 1: I got him to come up and play a song.
Speaker 1: It was only, you know, not sixty five thousand, admittedly,
Speaker 1: probably sixty five or maybe a hundred, uh, and Eddie
Speaker 1: sang rocking in the free world, ironically. So for me
Speaker 1: it was unbelievable to go. You know, I had that
Speaker 1: happened twice in the tournament, which is never happened before.
Speaker 1: First to go up on my wife's Patty's birthday to
Speaker 1: go see the eagles. She's played with Don and backed
Speaker 1: backed him up on a couple of albums. Or One
Speaker 1: of her biggest hits is with Don. And then he
Speaker 1: asked me to play. Already gone at Hyde Park and
Speaker 1: then Eddie did. So I'm safe to say that I
Speaker 1: had a great Wimbledon. I'm glad to hear that, man,
Speaker 1: because it seems like at times calling matches of the
Speaker 1: world's greatest court, going on stage with Pearl GM, that's
Speaker 1: just like another day in your life. That's just that's
Speaker 1: just a regular day for you. Sometimes no, well, uh, no,
Speaker 1: that's not true. I've been fortunate to meet a lot
Speaker 1: of great people associated with the music business. That's like
Speaker 1: my love, besides tennis and Sports, is playing the guitar music.
Speaker 1: Having the opportunity to meet these legends that I grew
Speaker 1: up idolizing and music is inspirational obviously keeps it going.
Speaker 1: On a boring practice session, Blair some Nice Music, it
Speaker 1: keeps pumpsy off and then all of a sudden to
Speaker 1: see that like Keith Richards and, uh, not to drop
Speaker 1: any names here, but Robert planned, you know, and you
Speaker 1: meet these guys, I mean led Zeppein was my favorite
Speaker 1: band growing up. The stones are amazing and you're sort
Speaker 1: of like on the city, you know, in some way
Speaker 1: you're sort of like looking at them eye to eye
Speaker 1: and they're like talking to like, Oh man, I really
Speaker 1: love what you do and this is incredible and and
Speaker 1: it's sort of like you pinch yourself, like could this
Speaker 1: really be happening? So I've got to admit that over
Speaker 1: the course of the last forty five years I've been
Speaker 1: very fortunate to been able to meet a lot of
Speaker 1: great people and, you know, get respect, mutual respect, from them. Yeah,
Speaker 1: what I love about you is you're not jaded at
Speaker 1: anything and to have those experiences where you do kind
Speaker 1: of meet your idols and they say that's pretty tricky, right,
Speaker 1: to meet people that you idolize, but then, as you said,
Speaker 1: eye to eye and it's becomes not geeking out on
Speaker 1: them but a mutual admiration society, like they appreciate what
Speaker 1: you did. I mean still surreal when you think about that?
Speaker 1: Or is it? UH, are you used to it? I
Speaker 1: think it's somewhere between surreal and you're used to it.
Speaker 1: I don't think you ever get totally used to it. Uh.
Speaker 1: I still just keep in mind you're a kid from
Speaker 1: Queens and here you are sitting standing next to Robert Plants.
Speaker 1: So it never gets old. It was the first time,
Speaker 1: like the very first time. You're there, there, you you
Speaker 1: led Zeppelin one, two, three or four. These are all
Speaker 1: incredibly important albums to people sort of our age. And
Speaker 1: then boom, first time Robert Plant is sitting in front
Speaker 1: of you saying Hey, I like what you do, man. Uh,
Speaker 1: you know, trying not from sweating like like Albert Brooks
Speaker 1: and broadcast news, you know, where you're just slabbering over
Speaker 1: him and I suppose. But you know, I actually saw
Speaker 1: it led Zeppelin at Madison Square Garden when I was
Speaker 1: probably fifth, fourteen or fifteen years old, and I remember
Speaker 1: thinking at the time it's like, why doesn't it sound
Speaker 1: like a song on the you know, on the reck
Speaker 1: her and you know, I realized through playing, starting to
Speaker 1: play guitar and for and just learning more about music that,
Speaker 1: you know, a lot of the Zeppelin songs had three
Speaker 1: four guitar parts on them, among other things, so it
Speaker 1: was almost impossible to duplicate it. But it was still
Speaker 1: like magical in its own way to see them. And
Speaker 1: then I got a chance to see them years later
Speaker 1: when page and plant went out, ironically in Croatia, and that's,
Speaker 1: you know, one of the first times I got to
Speaker 1: speak to them. I mean Jimmy Page is like the
Speaker 1: Rock God. Obviously is one of the greatest guitar players
Speaker 1: of all time. I happened to see him in a
Speaker 1: couple of situations, more not casual, but like where he
Speaker 1: was helping out like the Black Crows and doing stuff
Speaker 1: for them and being part of a benefit. We can
Speaker 1: talk to them a little bit more than hey, how
Speaker 1: you doing type of things. But Robert Plant UH. He
Speaker 1: actually came on my talk show. Most people don't know this,
Speaker 1: but I did have a talk show for six months
Speaker 1: back in two thousand four and he was nice enough
Speaker 1: during the US Open that year to come on my
Speaker 1: show and do a bit. And I remember someone asked me,
Speaker 1: I don't think it was Robert, like, what your favorite
Speaker 1: Zeppelin Song, and I always worked on the song the
Speaker 1: guitar bringing on home. It's on the second album, but
Speaker 1: you know. So I sort of blurted that out because
Speaker 1: I was saying even though there's like fifty or a
Speaker 1: hundred other songs that I liked better, and then I
Speaker 1: realized it was a cover tune and I'm like, Oh
Speaker 1: my God, that was the old foot in my mouth on.
Speaker 1: He was probably gone. Could he at least said Kashmir
Speaker 1: or stay away to heaven or something that, you know,
Speaker 1: we wrote? So that was rather embarrassing, but I luckily
Speaker 1: I got through it. I would have answered Kashmir. Now
Speaker 1: I think that, like a lot of people, I fanassy's
Speaker 1: about being a guitar hero. I friends tried to teach me,
Speaker 1: but a combination of lack of talent and lack of patients,
Speaker 1: that's usually not a formula for success in anything in life,
Speaker 1: especially something as tricky as guitar. But people try to
Speaker 1: teach me. We're not all time legends, and you had what,
Speaker 1: as the story goes, Eddiev and Hey Allen, Carlos Santana
Speaker 1: maybe clapped in once or twice, trying to help you
Speaker 1: master the Guitar Um. Well, that's sort of true. You know,
Speaker 1: you sort of meet him and you're there to have
Speaker 1: a drink and then they pick up the guitar. Bill Wyman,
Speaker 1: the Bass player from the stones, was one of the
Speaker 1: first guys, and I really was, you know, I probably
Speaker 1: didn't start. I was like one when I realized I
Speaker 1: was going to have a lot of time on the
Speaker 1: road on my hands, and he was sort of trying
Speaker 1: to teach me the one, four or five progression, which
Speaker 1: is like the most basic progression in music, like a
Speaker 1: blues progression. I was having trouble mastery that. I soon
Speaker 1: after I went to Chicago where a buddy of mine,
Speaker 1: Gary Fencer, who played for the Chicago Bears, took me
Speaker 1: to this legendary Blues Club, the Checkerboard Lounge, buddy guys club,
Speaker 1: and so I saw a buddy guy play and I
Speaker 1: was just like, Oh my God, this guy is this
Speaker 1: amazing and I'd happened to travel with this guitar, this
Speaker 1: less Paul I had that I went the first guitar
Speaker 1: every bought. I was like God, this thing is really heavy.
Speaker 1: I don't get this. They're so heavy. And I watched
Speaker 1: him playing. I'm like what in God's name? and My waisting,
Speaker 1: my time playing the guitar. When you see this, I
Speaker 1: had this big hotel room. I have to admit I
Speaker 1: don't know why I got it in. In Chicago was
Speaker 1: we were playing at the arena near the airport and
Speaker 1: I snatched the guitar the Smithereens in my hotel room.
Speaker 1: I was like, forget it, it's hopeless, don't even bother.
Speaker 1: And so for a couple of years I really didn't play.
Speaker 1: But then I realized, Oh my God, if you pick
Speaker 1: up a strata or telly telecaster, those are a lot
Speaker 1: lighter and sort of got renewed hope that I could
Speaker 1: do it and played, you know, on and off, because
Speaker 1: it's actually sort of tiring, like mentally if nothing else,
Speaker 1: when you know I'm trying to focus all my energies
Speaker 1: in tennis. Wasn't doing it a whole lot. At the
Speaker 1: end of my career I decided, Um, I gotta start
Speaker 1: playing more and actually put a band together. I was,
Speaker 1: I called my myself the most traveled unsigned band in history. Um,
Speaker 1: we went all over the world. We're in Japan, you know,
Speaker 1: I sort of connected with tennis ex editions basically, but
Speaker 1: we're going to South America, Japan, Hawaii, Europe on four occasions.
Speaker 1: It was unbelievable. I got plenty of you suck, you know. Um.
Speaker 1: And then I started going out with Patty Smite, my wife,
Speaker 1: and and she was sort of disillusioned at that time
Speaker 1: and the music business been it on the road with
Speaker 1: Rod Stewart, had sold had a platinum record. Uh, but
Speaker 1: she sort of felt like, and I'm sure to the
Speaker 1: degree still true, of changing. But you know, they don't
Speaker 1: treat the women rockers the way they do the guys.
Speaker 1: So she's and so I go, Hey, I got an idea.
Speaker 1: I bring a lot of energy and I'm playing. We
Speaker 1: should join, we should play in a band together. And
Speaker 1: then she looked at me for a second. She and
Speaker 1: she said, uh, yeah, and we should play mixed doubles
Speaker 1: at Wimbledon. And I go, uh, you don't play tennis
Speaker 1: and she goes exactly, and I'm like, okay, that's sort
Speaker 1: of you know, sent the message. And for a while
Speaker 1: actually I was playing, and then there was finally one
Speaker 1: festival I went to in Belgium, it's like one of
Speaker 1: these summer festivals, where I was playing and it was
Speaker 1: only for rock and for the music. And when I
Speaker 1: came back and she said to me and goes, okay,
Speaker 1: we've got this. Uh, we're about to have a daughter together.
Speaker 1: We've got four between us. If anyone's gonna play music,
Speaker 1: it's me, not you. Okay, so you were back towards
Speaker 1: the tennis. I'll try to take care of the music game,
Speaker 1: but I have taken if I have time, taking care
Speaker 1: of all these kids. That's a that's a great story,
Speaker 1: and now she met it with love. But it's kind
Speaker 1: of an ouch thing too, when somebody put you in
Speaker 1: your place. You know, the tennis racket was like a
Speaker 1: natural extension of your left arm and and maybe of
Speaker 1: your soul was the guitar are a little bit less connected,
Speaker 1: it was a little bit less innate as you tried
Speaker 1: to master that. Well, I'm gonna Bring Patty back into
Speaker 1: this for a second because she had a very simple
Speaker 1: phrase that she used for the way I played guitar.
Speaker 1: She said I wrestled it into submission. So that is
Speaker 1: not what you would call a major compliment, but you
Speaker 1: win when you're wrestling into submission. At least you win.
Speaker 1: It doesn't look pretty, but you got the w yeah, well,
Speaker 1: that's the way. You know. As as I've gotten older, Chris,
Speaker 1: I'm certainly trying to look at the glass half full
Speaker 1: more often. So that's the way I try to look
Speaker 1: at that particular phrase. I do love it. It's a
Speaker 1: it's a great outlet. I'm better than I ever was. Admittedly,
Speaker 1: it's somewhat low bar. The pandemic allowed me to play
Speaker 1: more guitar than I've ever played. Obviously was cooped up
Speaker 1: in one place. I was fortunate up one of my
Speaker 1: buddies is enraging against the machine, and we trained all
Speaker 1: the time and we hung out all the time, him anyway,
Speaker 1: not really musically. I Jam with him and Brad The
Speaker 1: drummer a couple of times and been in watching rage
Speaker 1: rehearse and sat or seeing them, but now it's just
Speaker 1: playing like the two of us. So I'd actually got
Speaker 1: a lot more time where I was actually playing with
Speaker 1: Tim and he was playing drums, ironically, not base, and
Speaker 1: every now and then he'd be like he in the
Speaker 1: middle of I'd be all pumped up, I'd be playing
Speaker 1: a song and all of a sudden he'd stopped me, goes,
Speaker 1: you're fucking time's off, your time's off, and he'd scream
Speaker 1: at me and I'd be like to Um and but
Speaker 1: he was right, of course, like a the time, and
Speaker 1: so the one out of ten where I'd be like
Speaker 1: it was you, not me. Okay, so, and he's not
Speaker 1: even playing his natural instrument. But it was something that
Speaker 1: Patty had well is saying. You know, you know, you
Speaker 1: can sing and key, you're okay, you know your guitars
Speaker 1: getting better, but your time is a little you know,
Speaker 1: and you can imagine in your head and those guitars
Speaker 1: people that have hard to play or try when you're
Speaker 1: actually stinging, maybe two and you're trying to think of
Speaker 1: other things and think ahead and the words and you're
Speaker 1: listening to the other people in your band. I mean
Speaker 1: it's let's put it this way. It gave me an
Speaker 1: appreciation for how great the people that I was watching.
Speaker 1: You mentioned Pearl Jam and the Eagles and the police.
Speaker 1: You know, Trios in particular, because I've been playing recently
Speaker 1: more as a trio the police. Uh Stevie, Ray Vaughan
Speaker 1: when he played ZZ top Jimmy Hendrix. Yeah, exactly exactly.
Speaker 1: You know, I've always limelight. Has always been a goal
Speaker 1: of mine to play. Good luck singing it, not to
Speaker 1: mention playing it. I mean if I could play the
Speaker 1: guitar solo uncomfortably Numb the David Gilmar played, I think
Speaker 1: I love my job, as you do, but I think
Speaker 1: I'd walk away from the give I just had the
Speaker 1: ability to do that. I think I would trade everything
Speaker 1: for that. Your seven Grand Slam titles and singles. Uh.
Speaker 1: Someone said, Hey, John, you gotta, you gotta give those back,
Speaker 1: but you're gonna have this, the kind of Sublime Guitar
Speaker 1: Talent that a lot of your heroes have, and that's
Speaker 1: gonna be an ability that you'll have for your life.
Speaker 1: You trade it. Oh God, that's a tough one. You know, honestly,
Speaker 1: I think deep down in my heart of hearts, I
Speaker 1: made the right call. I Love Sports, I really do.
Speaker 1: I mean sports was my life growing up as a kid. Um,
Speaker 1: so it's hard to say that of course, it's tempting
Speaker 1: to say if you were David Gilmour, it's not only
Speaker 1: was a beautiful guy and a legendary guitar player, but
Speaker 1: he had an absolutely beautiful voice on top of everything else.
Speaker 1: So he had the whole package. So it would be
Speaker 1: hard to say no, I don't want with David Gilmore.
Speaker 1: Some of these other guys had these all time great
Speaker 1: like the the Solo, you know when the two guys
Speaker 1: trade in Hotel California, like, okay, this is you know this,
Speaker 1: that's this stuff where you know they're up there with
Speaker 1: the Rafa's in the no Vak Rogers. You know, that's
Speaker 1: the all time legendary Solos ever in rock and roll Um,
Speaker 1: and they lived a life that like it was almost
Speaker 1: I remember times because I try to keep up with
Speaker 1: some of these guys sometimes and it was certainly fun trying.
Speaker 1: But there was a certain point I was like, okay,
Speaker 1: too good. You know, he's guys Keith, you're too good man,
Speaker 1: but but I'm I gotta go to bed, you know.
Speaker 1: So I think I think I made the right call.
Speaker 1: Art's been important to people have called you an artist
Speaker 1: for the racket. I know that that's a compliment you love.
Speaker 1: I mean the artistry is something that really, to some degree,
Speaker 1: cannot be taught or coached. It's just innate. Is the
Speaker 1: way you played have anything to do with the way
Speaker 1: you connected with people who express themselves creatively, whether it's
Speaker 1: a musician or a painter? Yeah, you know, I'd like
Speaker 1: to think so. You're absolutely the greatest complin ever got
Speaker 1: was that you you're like an artist out there Um,
Speaker 1: and I think that that's something, hopefully, that people remember,
Speaker 1: that I brought to the table. Uh so absolutely. I
Speaker 1: connected them for a number of reasons. One when I
Speaker 1: was fortunate enough to have enough money to be able
Speaker 1: to afford to buy a car. And in our day, Chris,
Speaker 1: you're you're a little younger than me, but uh, you know,
Speaker 1: you cared about like the sound system, you had like
Speaker 1: the speakers, and that then a lot. That was like
Speaker 1: the second biggest thing. And then if you could have
Speaker 1: an apartment, it was like, wow, I've got it. You'd
Speaker 1: have uh, you'd I haven't made but after that, you know,
Speaker 1: when I first started going around with my late great
Speaker 1: buddy beatus Carolitis, he started taking me in a lot
Speaker 1: of artists studios and galleries in Soho, which is in
Speaker 1: downtown New York, and I got an opportunity to meet
Speaker 1: artists and I was like wow, it just made me
Speaker 1: feel better and when I started to buy art and
Speaker 1: collected to walk down the stairs in the morning and
Speaker 1: take a look at some be sort of sort of inspirational,
Speaker 1: the way you hope to be as as as an athlete,
Speaker 1: the way you want to pump someone up. Or I'm
Speaker 1: here at my tennis academy right now hoping that, you know,
Speaker 1: some of these kids will be inspired by by me
Speaker 1: being here. Um. And the other part of the art
Speaker 1: that I really respect is they're out there on an
Speaker 1: island like a tennis player. They're by themselves. You walk
Speaker 1: into a show, it's sort of like you walk out.
Speaker 1: What could possibly be better? Then walk into the Center
Speaker 1: Court of Wimbledon, for example, and doing your things? Well,
Speaker 1: that is sort of similar if an art if you
Speaker 1: walk into this show and it's packed and people are
Speaker 1: like wow, this is incredible. On the other side of
Speaker 1: the coin, what could be worse? If you go out
Speaker 1: in the wimbled instead of court and you lay an
Speaker 1: egg and you just feel like you're two FT tall?
Speaker 1: And then, the same as art you know the guts
Speaker 1: to go there and some of the other sucks. It's terrible.
Speaker 1: You know, I don't understand this abstract stuff. I don't.
Speaker 1: He doesn't paint well enough. So you know you're putting
Speaker 1: yourself out there. The other people would be comedients, like
Speaker 1: stand ups. Those group of people I feel more connected to,
Speaker 1: perhaps than any other entertainment type of people. Yeah, they can.
Speaker 1: To continue the parallel. You know, you are out there
Speaker 1: by yourself and and and many artists, like many athletes,
Speaker 1: are somewhat tortured at times in their life. And and
Speaker 1: sadness and anger can be great sources of inspiration. Many
Speaker 1: great paintings, just like many great songs, have become from
Speaker 1: a place of anger. Um, anger has played a role
Speaker 1: in your life. We'll talk about that perhaps later. But
Speaker 1: do you gravitate towards art that expresses intense emotions, where
Speaker 1: you know and can relate to what the artist is
Speaker 1: going through when you see the canvas and you know
Speaker 1: he's poured himself out there and it's not always pleasant,
Speaker 1: but it's compelling. Yeah, absolutely ensure. Yes, UM, totally gravitate
Speaker 1: towards more uh type of art like that, something that's
Speaker 1: thought provoking that makes you think, that can inspire. Sometimes
Speaker 1: I don't know what that artist is going through. I
Speaker 1: don't know. Sometimes you may not know yourself what you're
Speaker 1: exactly what's happening within at a certain time. But there's
Speaker 1: no question that that is the type of art that I've,
Speaker 1: you know, collected over the years, the type of art
Speaker 1: that I think is ultimately going to have more of
Speaker 1: an impact on society in general and that's what we
Speaker 1: continue to need. And you know, musicians it's tougher. You know,
Speaker 1: I've been with my wife Twenty eight years and it
Speaker 1: sort of feels like, from what I see with her,
Speaker 1: that you write more often, like you said, when it's
Speaker 1: things are sort of down or they're not. You know,
Speaker 1: it's easier to write sort of songs like that than upbeat,
Speaker 1: peppie songs, you know, so and and and it feels
Speaker 1: like it's sort of a shame because then that's sort
Speaker 1: of you. The biggest thing for me is I want
Speaker 1: my other have to be happen, you know, and fulfilled,
Speaker 1: and in certain ways that doesn't necessarily help help her
Speaker 1: and what her job is. Uh, I felt like, Um,
Speaker 1: you know, I was on top of the world and
Speaker 1: I think to myself, you know, at that moment, I
Speaker 1: mean I had this documentary coming out and he says,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm the greatest player ever played. I point
Speaker 1: out that was, you know, almost thirty eight years ago. Uh,
Speaker 1: you know, I wish I could say that now, but
Speaker 1: I can't. But at that time I was like on
Speaker 1: top of the world and certainly part of it was amazing,
Speaker 1: but part of it wasn't that amazing. You know, there
Speaker 1: was there was a void in the and so it's
Speaker 1: your your to find that sweet spot that you need
Speaker 1: to get to and as a human being and as
Speaker 1: an athlete, is tricky, as as we're witnessing now with,
Speaker 1: I'll give you an example, Naomi Osaka, Nick Curios, trying
Speaker 1: to find his, you know, ability. You just to go
Speaker 1: out there and, you know, give a consistent effort, and
Speaker 1: it hasn't been easy for they even try all the time.
Speaker 1: So there's a lot more to it than meets the
Speaker 1: I so, uh, I'm actually thankful that over the course
Speaker 1: of time, I've done it with you for many years.
Speaker 1: But as a commentator, yes, you're a backseat driver, but
Speaker 1: you also want to be supporter as best you can,
Speaker 1: as long as you see people giving that all out effort.
Speaker 1: That's the one thing I really don't like. But if
Speaker 1: you do, I feel like hopefully I can tell the
Speaker 1: people watching that will get them better to better understand
Speaker 1: what's going on in the head of some of these individuals.
Speaker 1: Sometimes it can be unbelievably easy when it's all working,
Speaker 1: but most of the time it isn't. You talked about
Speaker 1: the void. You use that word. Many people believe that
Speaker 1: achievement can fill the void. Success can fill the void,
Speaker 1: money can feel the void. Sometimes they find it's like
Speaker 1: the exact opposite. For you. What was that the void
Speaker 1: or of the sense of something was missing, or the challenge?
Speaker 1: Did he get bigger and tougher as the fame grew,
Speaker 1: as the ranking got better, as the spotlight got brighter? Yes, uh,
Speaker 1: something crazy happened when I thought, Um, things were just
Speaker 1: going so great for me personally. Uh, my greatest rival
Speaker 1: I ever had biord board at years old, after I
Speaker 1: beat him at the US Open to even our head
Speaker 1: to head career record at seven and seven and seven,
Speaker 1: decided he was never going to play another major. That
Speaker 1: to me was like beyond belief that like that was
Speaker 1: even possible. I remember when he said it to beat.
Speaker 1: Garylitis and I were in an exhibition in Australia. We
Speaker 1: were about to go down to the press conference, having
Speaker 1: a beer before and Boran says us, you know, I'm
Speaker 1: I'm retiring, and we started laughing. We thought he was kidding.
Speaker 1: We're like, what the hell are you gonna do? You
Speaker 1: know what, we don't know what else to do. Um.
Speaker 1: And he said something to the effect of like someday
Speaker 1: you'll understand, um. And so I'm not sure I totally
Speaker 1: ever understood it. Um, I get it certainly a lot
Speaker 1: more because he'd been doing a lot longer and maybe
Speaker 1: he was burnt out. But the all that sort of
Speaker 1: attention that he had was shifted towards me because people
Speaker 1: were afraid to sort of look at the reasons as
Speaker 1: to why he was doing that and try to help
Speaker 1: him through that. In my you know, that to me
Speaker 1: was a horrible thing to happen in tennis, and so
Speaker 1: that the pressure in a way was amped up more
Speaker 1: and more on me because they didn't know where else
Speaker 1: to turn their attention to and I was easy pickings
Speaker 1: in a way. And so that went on for a
Speaker 1: handful of years and then when I met my ex
Speaker 1: wife who at that time hadn't done a movie. TAKETUM
Speaker 1: my x yfe tatum O'Neil hadn't done a movie in
Speaker 1: four or five years. I didn't realize, you know, I
Speaker 1: might be an idiot, but I didn't think that the
Speaker 1: some of the two parts was gonna be so much
Speaker 1: bigger than US two as individuals. And all of a
Speaker 1: sudden it became even a bigger thing that I I
Speaker 1: must say I had difficulties handlings that would that would
Speaker 1: allow me to play to the best of my ability,
Speaker 1: particularly since I wanted to and did have kids. So
Speaker 1: that Juggling Act made it a bit overwhelming for me
Speaker 1: from that point forward, even though I tried many different
Speaker 1: ways to try to get better. You know, I didn't
Speaker 1: stop playing for six months, which is not that unusual now.
Speaker 1: Nadal just didn't play for six months and won the
Speaker 1: Australian opening, for God's Sakes, at thirty five years old.
Speaker 1: I was twenty six and seven and turn turn twenty
Speaker 1: seven when I started to take the time off, and
Speaker 1: I felt like I did it for the right reasons.
Speaker 1: The plan was to get better. How bad did I
Speaker 1: feel when I never I never even got to the
Speaker 1: same level, much less got better. So that wasn't easy
Speaker 1: to take. Uh Um, and then as you decide, like
Speaker 1: as an athlete, some people can handle. I remember in
Speaker 1: nine five, which was just before I took this about it,
Speaker 1: I did a series of exhibitions with porn and he
Speaker 1: he was like I remember thinking I was really burnt
Speaker 1: out and my wife, ex wife, was pregnant. I'm like,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to Australia, I stan't and I gotta regroup.
Speaker 1: He goes, no, no, you can go. If you win
Speaker 1: Australia and the masters, you you'll still be number one.
Speaker 1: And I had lost the Lendel in the finals of
Speaker 1: the open and lost. You wimbled in and I was
Speaker 1: it wasn't looking good, you know, it looked like landels
Speaker 1: of me number one. He talked me into in a
Speaker 1: way and and I thought I said at the time.
Speaker 1: I said, you know, it's not that bad to be
Speaker 1: too in the world. I could live with that for,
Speaker 1: you know, a year or a couple of years. He goes,
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter if you're two or a hundred. So
Speaker 1: you know, it's sort of the psyche of the person.
Speaker 1: I think it does matter personally, you know, I'd rather
Speaker 1: be too than a hundred, but he wanted to be
Speaker 1: all or nothing, you know. So you see how people
Speaker 1: operate in different ways. So I sort of went along
Speaker 1: for six, seven years. Chris. Honestly, we're deep in you know,
Speaker 1: it's a horrible feeling and tough to it even at now.
Speaker 1: But I sort of knew I wasn't gonna win, you know,
Speaker 1: the anywhere close to the level. I was maybe Never
Speaker 1: gonna win anyone. I kept hoping, you know, get one
Speaker 1: more and I knocked on the door a couple of
Speaker 1: times but never did. That was that's pretty disappointing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but you persevered, which most people, I mean you're never
Speaker 1: had to deal with playing tennis after the peak of
Speaker 1: his powers on the crest, because he stepped out. As
Speaker 1: you said, it's twenty five is on top. Typically athletes
Speaker 1: grind away and try to, you know, regain recapture some
Speaker 1: of that, as you did, and it wasn't like you
Speaker 1: fell apart. I think you made the semis of your
Speaker 1: last Wimbledon right and the US Open you were right there.
Speaker 1: You're still contending. You weren't losing Um, you know, in
Speaker 1: the first round to some uh, him and Egger. So
Speaker 1: you you were competitive to the end, but that, but
Speaker 1: you're saying that really ate at you because you had
Speaker 1: been number one and it just it was it was
Speaker 1: tough to abide the slightly eroding skills and results. Yeah, but,
Speaker 1: you know, I must say it was. It still was
Speaker 1: a hell of a way to make a living, you know,
Speaker 1: in a way. And so I'm thinking, don't you know,
Speaker 1: you know, despite your nose, that you know, cut off
Speaker 1: your nose, despite your face, or whatever the phrases, you know.
Speaker 1: So I was sort of like, well, let's just keep
Speaker 1: at this, maybe maybe you'll get like and it turned out,
Speaker 1: you know, at the time and like, who the hell
Speaker 1: are these guys? Oh, Pete Sampras, loose end in the SIS,
Speaker 1: not a bad players. Andre Agassie, not too shabby. currier was,
Speaker 1: you know, that was the last guy ever played at
Speaker 1: the US Open. Cost Him in my last open in
Speaker 1: the round of sixteen. Well, he was pretty good there
Speaker 1: for a couple of years. So these weren't, you know, hacks.
Speaker 1: I was losing too, but it was, you know, sort
Speaker 1: of like Whoa. Okay, this is not the easiest thing,
Speaker 1: but and I had a growing family, so it was.
Speaker 1: I gave it the best shot I had under the circumstances.
Speaker 1: That time wasn't good enough, obviously, um, but I felt
Speaker 1: like generally, all in all, I feel proud that I've
Speaker 1: tried to make the best decisions I possibly could at
Speaker 1: the time. I didn't anticipate at the end of my
Speaker 1: final year, that I get it, you know, get divorced,
Speaker 1: for example, you know, as an example. So that threw
Speaker 1: everything off for you know, even further. So, you know,
Speaker 1: we could go on and on, but I think all
Speaker 1: at all, for the most part, uh, and I'll start
Speaker 1: with my present wife, Patty, I made a series of
Speaker 1: pretty good decisions. Yeah, I'd say so. Um, you were
Speaker 1: taught early on, John, perfectionism as an example from your parents.
Speaker 1: It's hard to rewire yourself when you are a perfectionist,
Speaker 1: I think. I think chasing achievement and relentless improvement isn't
Speaker 1: quite the same thing as being a perfectionist, where it
Speaker 1: rips you up to not be one out of a hundred.
Speaker 1: A lot of perfections. I don't know that they're they're
Speaker 1: super happy whatever walk of life they're in. How has
Speaker 1: that been for you? Sort of the the pursuit of
Speaker 1: perfection and trying to balance that off with a happy life. Um, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think I'd like to take pride in the fact
Speaker 1: that I've tried to sort of wean myself off that
Speaker 1: in essence to a degree that I don't want to
Speaker 1: put that type of expectation on myself every single day
Speaker 1: in my life. Some of my kids may tell you
Speaker 1: otherwise at times, Um, and certainly I have high expectations
Speaker 1: for them, as as as I continue to do for myself,
Speaker 1: but I just think that at a certain point there
Speaker 1: was a course in economics, course where, you know, they
Speaker 1: talked about law of diminute. She returns and I you know,
Speaker 1: I don't want to spend my entire life where like
Speaker 1: I'm not living up to what I think I can.
Speaker 1: I want to sort of look at the class half
Speaker 1: full and, you know, look at this journey that I've
Speaker 1: taken and feel like this has been a hell of
Speaker 1: a ride, instead of like what could have, would have
Speaker 1: should have. You know, I could sit there and tell
Speaker 1: you about what I should have done in the tennis court.
Speaker 1: I could sit there and tell you I should have
Speaker 1: held on a lot of art pieces that I bought that,
Speaker 1: you know, would have been a hell of a lot
Speaker 1: more valuable had I held onto him, and I probably
Speaker 1: in a way, and I don't want it to be
Speaker 1: that way where you lose sleep over that, over more
Speaker 1: than some of the losses you had while I was playing.
Speaker 1: Everyone thinks it's like and I've been lucky. I want
Speaker 1: to say that that I've made you more money than
Speaker 1: I ever thought I would and I continue to be
Speaker 1: able to make a great living. Uh, and I would
Speaker 1: be doing a disservice to the kids at my academy,
Speaker 1: my own is, and a lot of other people if
Speaker 1: I'm sitting there whining about what I should have done
Speaker 1: instead of being, you know, talking about like what we
Speaker 1: talked in the beginning. I just was on stage a
Speaker 1: month ago with Pearl Jam in front of Sixty Thou people,
Speaker 1: with Chris Fowler taking a picture for me. Thank you. Hey.
Speaker 1: I happened, just happen to have a glass of water
Speaker 1: in my hand which is is just about half full,
Speaker 1: and that's an expression you use a couple of times, right,
Speaker 1: and I know you use it a lot, and it's
Speaker 1: just a way of looking at life where you're focusing
Speaker 1: on what you have and not what you lack, and
Speaker 1: it's a beautiful perspective. Sometimes it takes a lot of
Speaker 1: us a little time to arrive there. Some people never
Speaker 1: get there, unfortunately. What was the moment John of the
Speaker 1: period time where you began to look at things more
Speaker 1: optimistically and and I don't know if sunny disposition is
Speaker 1: a phrase I used, but I just in terms of hey,
Speaker 1: things are good, let's not focus on this part of
Speaker 1: the glass that's empty when I'm lacking. You know, when
Speaker 1: I had children, I think that I looked at life
Speaker 1: in a different way, even though my results were there.
Speaker 1: I loved having kids, Um and I wanted pretty desperately
Speaker 1: to show that it wasn't about them. That the reason
Speaker 1: I wanted. I screwed up, you know, it's not their fault, obviously,
Speaker 1: but that sort of changed my perspective, even though I
Speaker 1: was getting hammered in in some ways in my own
Speaker 1: hand by others. Why is he not one or two
Speaker 1: in the world? He's eight in the world of ten
Speaker 1: or whatever the hell he is. Um and I suppose Um.
Speaker 1: You know, going through a divorce is really painful. Um
Speaker 1: and I just feels lost, at least I did. Um.
Speaker 1: I remember when I met a Patty Um and then
Speaker 1: subsequently matter one a Christmas Day of n didn't see
Speaker 1: her until September of did not see her one time,
Speaker 1: and I was playing, Um, Andre Agassi an exhibition in
Speaker 1: Phoenix five days after he won the US Open that year,
Speaker 1: and I'm sure that Andre I and well deserved was,
Speaker 1: you know, celebrating his win, so he wasn't too worried about,
Speaker 1: you know, the match he was playing against me in
Speaker 1: Phoenix five days later. But I beat him, you know,
Speaker 1: and I hadn't played for the better part of two years,
Speaker 1: you know, closing in on two years. So you know,
Speaker 1: I was feeling all high and mighty about myself, pretty
Speaker 1: good about it, and that's when I called Patty up
Speaker 1: again because I was going to l a for a
Speaker 1: few days and Um, at that time I went out
Speaker 1: with her. She and and we had a date and
Speaker 1: I was like, I think there's something about this. The
Speaker 1: next day, Chris, I went up to play this charity match, uh,
Speaker 1: with Michael Chang's charity, and right before I went on
Speaker 1: the court, they told me beat us had died and
Speaker 1: I just went completely numb. And I'm telling you, I
Speaker 1: would have beaten anyone in the world. Six may I
Speaker 1: could have beaten Shang one in one. That day, I
Speaker 1: just was so numb that you don't even think. And
Speaker 1: I called Patty up because I was coming back to
Speaker 1: L A and I was like, you know, I I
Speaker 1: want to be with you tonight, and she's like Hey, wait,
Speaker 1: hold on, slow down here. You know, thinking, you know,
Speaker 1: there was some guy just wants to you know, you
Speaker 1: can imagine the rest. and to me it was more
Speaker 1: not that that wasn't something that I thought would be
Speaker 1: a good idea, but at the same time I wanted
Speaker 1: to be with her because I needed I was just
Speaker 1: was like completely overwhelmed. And I think right after that,
Speaker 1: after that horrible thing that happened with Vitas, I started
Speaker 1: to think to myself, this is the time where you've
Speaker 1: got to make, you know, really make more of an effort,
Speaker 1: and I started to feel like I was. I was
Speaker 1: able to turn the tables in my life, slowly but surely,
Speaker 1: but that was certainly one of the big moments for me,
Speaker 1: you know, and over the course of time, Um, I
Speaker 1: think I've each year I think I've done a little
Speaker 1: better better job of it. So, you know, basically wean
Speaker 1: myself off that. You know, whether it's being or perfectionist.
Speaker 1: I mean it's not like you never you ever lose that,
Speaker 1: but I'm a little soft now in the tennis court.
Speaker 1: You know, I don't go for the kill like that.
Speaker 1: You know, how can I do it now? But over
Speaker 1: the course of time. And maybe that's not the worst thing,
Speaker 1: because I think I got to be uh UH. You know,
Speaker 1: empathy wasn't my strongest suit. So it was my weaknest
Speaker 1: suit actually. So I think I've gotten better in in
Speaker 1: areas that I was weaker at and been able to appreciate.
Speaker 1: You know, for quite a few years when I was
Speaker 1: doing commentary, I uh was people would come up to
Speaker 1: me the first probably ten fifteen years and they'd be like,
Speaker 1: you know something, you're a better commentator than you are
Speaker 1: a player. I wouldn't justice God, how dare you say what?
Speaker 1: And then I thought to myself I was a pretty
Speaker 1: damn good tennis player. If they're saying that I'm better
Speaker 1: at tennis, at comments in them at tennis, that's a
Speaker 1: hell of a compliment. You So, you idiot, take it
Speaker 1: is one. So it took probably about ten years for
Speaker 1: me sink in, but that's made me appreciate what I've
Speaker 1: been doing with you and a few others over the
Speaker 1: course of the last even twenty more, because now it's
Speaker 1: been but I think it's my thirties US Open. That's
Speaker 1: important to to understand the compliment more than the insult,
Speaker 1: because sometimes you can take it either way. But inside them,
Speaker 1: I think yeah, John, I think it's fair to say
Speaker 1: that you know, number one ranked tennis player in the
Speaker 1: world commentator right right there as well. So you're to
Speaker 1: be it to achieve two different careers that are related
Speaker 1: but different, ultimately different. Um playing is not the same
Speaker 1: as talking about it, and and to be able to
Speaker 1: to get to the pinnacle in a couple of different
Speaker 1: UH professions and can still be improving it after sixties
Speaker 1: is cool. As I said before, I mean I work
Speaker 1: with a lot of really talented, really interesting people, quote unquote, characters.
Speaker 1: I guess you'd be in the character club. I mean
Speaker 1: that's a compliment to me, better than lands on a
Speaker 1: bit just there. But in terms of Um working with you,
Speaker 1: I it is so cool to see that is an
Speaker 1: all time great and something that's been doing as long
Speaker 1: as you have. You still approach a routine match with
Speaker 1: passion and Energy and interest and and that's not something
Speaker 1: that ought to be taken for granted. I mean it
Speaker 1: is so cool to be able to share the space when,
Speaker 1: you know, or just a routine second round match at
Speaker 1: some tournament. It is not a piece of tennis history.
Speaker 1: You'RE gonna be written on that court that day, but
Speaker 1: you still you get fired up for it. So and
Speaker 1: it's it's it's very cool. I absolutely think that's, you know,
Speaker 1: the biggest thing that I should bring to the table.
Speaker 1: It's an energy and a passion for it, you know,
Speaker 1: no matter what it is. I think that's what people
Speaker 1: want and that's what I want. You know, that's what
Speaker 1: I brought to the table. I think that's what separated
Speaker 1: me for a while out a tennis score. What it
Speaker 1: wasn't like here. You here. I don't look like Raphae
Speaker 1: and the doll a whole lot with my guns. You know,
Speaker 1: if you know what I'm saying. Um. So I had
Speaker 1: to try to hopefully intimidate different ways. And what way
Speaker 1: would that be? Bring that energy that they would they
Speaker 1: would feel on the other side of the net and
Speaker 1: throw them Um. So that is certainly something I tried
Speaker 1: to bring the table. Comments or I would like, you know,
Speaker 1: and I got a couple of sports enemy's, I think
Speaker 1: in Um Britain, uh with with the BBC, but I
Speaker 1: didn't get when I got nominated. Now no one cares
Speaker 1: about Santis, apparently. So we don't even get dominated. Or
Speaker 1: maybe we're not as good. No, we are as good.
Speaker 1: But at one time I was at the words show,
Speaker 1: it makes me think, and I was at a table
Speaker 1: that NBC used to be called, obviously you remember, before
Speaker 1: espn did it Wimbledon and the French and so I
Speaker 1: was sitting at the table and I was sitting next
Speaker 1: to Dick Enberg, and so I was up against John Madden,
Speaker 1: who wanted like twenty times or whatever in a row
Speaker 1: or whatever, and a few other people. And so they go,
Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen, the best color commentator is John Matt
Speaker 1: and Dick turned to me and goes to congratulations and
Speaker 1: it's like Madus Great Dick Emberg. He called it game, set,
Speaker 1: match of a little too earlier there. That said, well,
Speaker 1: I don't that's the only time I said, oh Myn
Speaker 1: as someone who's not been shower with the with with
Speaker 1: the trophies, I can tell you that's that's not about that.
Speaker 1: So don't don't worry about that. I think you're gonna
Speaker 1: the lack of the lack of a sports emmy is
Speaker 1: is you're gonna be okay. You know, just the number.
Speaker 1: We talked about some rock stars and artists, but just
Speaker 1: the number of interesting people, John that, that have come
Speaker 1: into your orbit. They continue to. What are Harrelson sitting
Speaker 1: in the Green Room with you and Patty the other
Speaker 1: day Wimbledon? It's just so interesting that these people you know,
Speaker 1: they respect what you did, they connect with you, they
Speaker 1: want a pc of you, they want a PC of
Speaker 1: your time, they want to say they know you. I
Speaker 1: mean that's that's interesting to to have that, whether it's
Speaker 1: ex fleets, you mentioned a few of the people of
Speaker 1: all sorts of orbits you've had a chance to interact
Speaker 1: with and learn from and observe. You know what, the
Speaker 1: greatest thank you for that, and it's the greatest perk
Speaker 1: I ever got by far, is this is the opportunity
Speaker 1: to meet sort of these extremely interesting people in different
Speaker 1: walks of the entertainment business, whether it's other athletes that
Speaker 1: I've become friends with over the years. Some of them
Speaker 1: I met younger than other others I didn't. In all
Speaker 1: the different sports, and then you got the movie stars, uh,
Speaker 1: and you got the musicians. Uh. There was one person
Speaker 1: that topped at all of those by far, M I.
Speaker 1: One of the best decisions I ever made was in
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty when I was offered a million dollars to
Speaker 1: go play Borg and apartheid South Africa, that sort of
Speaker 1: fake homeland they came up with to start to make
Speaker 1: it look like they were treating blacks fairly. And I
Speaker 1: I chose not to go down there and I never
Speaker 1: went there and I feel like I've gotten a lot
Speaker 1: of support over the years from the African American community.
Speaker 1: That makes me feel great that even some of them
Speaker 1: aware of the fact that I didn't go there. But
Speaker 1: eventually parts I'd ended and I um and Nelson Mandela
Speaker 1: was elected president and so there was a seniors event
Speaker 1: I went to in Joe Burg and long story short,
Speaker 1: I went to have an opportunity. I Yannick Noah, who
Speaker 1: was with me, and Biorn Borg and we got an
Speaker 1: opportunity to go to Nelson Mandela's home where he lived
Speaker 1: as the president, and I came. I brought one of
Speaker 1: my rackets, Chris, and I had, you know, the wood
Speaker 1: rackets from like the night eighty one, which the last
Speaker 1: years I played with. I think eighty two is the
Speaker 1: last year, but and I brought it, I gave it
Speaker 1: to Nelson Mandela and I saw him hold that. He
Speaker 1: had the most beautiful hands that I had ever shook
Speaker 1: hands with my life. It just he sort of felt
Speaker 1: like an angel on earth and he said to me
Speaker 1: at one point, he said it's an honor to meet you,
Speaker 1: and I thought to myself, Oh my God, I'd give
Speaker 1: ten million dollars if I had this on tape right
Speaker 1: now to these people that are, you know, going after me.
Speaker 1: That Nelson, you know, of course I was, you know,
Speaker 1: feeling that with him. Are you kidding me? But that
Speaker 1: was probably the greatest individual sort of minute, one of
Speaker 1: the greatest of my life when, you know, he said
Speaker 1: that he's like and then he followed that up with Um,
Speaker 1: you know, I listened to your match, the match you
Speaker 1: played against you and Borg at Wimbledon in or whatever,
Speaker 1: and I thought to myself, this guy was in Robin's
Speaker 1: island for twenty seven years and I'm sitting there complaining
Speaker 1: about a line called and he doesn't seem to have
Speaker 1: an ounce of bitterness about anything. That happened to me
Speaker 1: and I'm like, how is this even possible? This is
Speaker 1: like the greatest human being I ever met. So I
Speaker 1: guess in some ways it was um it was for
Speaker 1: me and unbelievable a moment to be able to meet him.
Speaker 1: I not that you know, meaning a lot of these
Speaker 1: other people, whether it's, you know, Jack Nicholson, for example,
Speaker 1: and my he was like my all time favorite actor.
Speaker 1: You go down the list. I've been lucky, but that
Speaker 1: topped everything. Yeah, I guess it would. I mean, as
Speaker 1: the story goes, Mandela convinced the guards at Robin Island
Speaker 1: to put your match with Borg on BBC radio. It
Speaker 1: meant that much to him that he would try to
Speaker 1: press and get a favorite out of him because he
Speaker 1: just wanted to hear on the radio and have to
Speaker 1: imagine you playing Borg at Center Court. I can't imagine
Speaker 1: anything cooler than that. That it meant that much to him. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so you know, it's tough to it's tough to go.
Speaker 1: Where do you go from there? But you know it's
Speaker 1: of all the people, I mean these people. Okay, Mandela
Speaker 1: was impressed and set up an honor to meet you.
Speaker 1: Who Have you run into? That was totally unimpressed and
Speaker 1: then you're you're excited to meet them and you just
Speaker 1: get nothing. Um. Well, you know, we've been talking throughout
Speaker 1: this podcast about how we want to keep the glass
Speaker 1: half full here. We don't want to go to, you know,
Speaker 1: the people that blew me off. So sometimes empty half
Speaker 1: pretty interesting that I don't want to think about that.
Speaker 1: I'll tell you about the worst human being I ever
Speaker 1: that was when we played David's Cup in two thousand
Speaker 1: and one year. I was captain. We went to Zimbabwe
Speaker 1: and we had to go to Robert Mugabi's palace because
Speaker 1: I'm not exactly sure why, because he's the president or whatever,
Speaker 1: and this guy had to be five feet tall. In
Speaker 1: his hands was like he poured a bucket of water
Speaker 1: in his hands and shook our hands and he was
Speaker 1: sweating and it was so bizarre, like, and this is
Speaker 1: even before they realized how palacious of person he was. Um.
Speaker 1: So that would easily be the as I'm saying this,
Speaker 1: I'm trying to think of people that blew me off,
Speaker 1: but I don't want to do that. I'm not going there.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. You refused to say who blew you off
Speaker 1: and you're still it's just but is that pride or what?
Speaker 1: You don't want to make them look bad. No, it's
Speaker 1: more like I don't want to put out the energy,
Speaker 1: the effort to think about it, you know, because I'm
Speaker 1: in too good a place. I can understand that, John.
Speaker 1: Let's not put energy on negative stuff. But what? What?
Speaker 1: I just joined the club that you've been in a
Speaker 1: couple of years. So, so when you're sixty you're supposed
Speaker 1: to have wisdom, you're supposed to have perspective, you're supposed
Speaker 1: to have learned a couple of things. I mean, how
Speaker 1: do you think you know, reaching this stage of your life? Um, yeah,
Speaker 1: you lose a step on the court and some things
Speaker 1: physically as an as an athlete. I know that's something
Speaker 1: that's difficult to reconcile for a lot of people. But
Speaker 1: what what do you feel great about being despite you know,
Speaker 1: the alternative is not good to you know, walking around
Speaker 1: at sixty three, you could be underground. What what do
Speaker 1: you feel great about reaching this stage and and and
Speaker 1: still improving in areas? Um, I feel great about the
Speaker 1: fact that I at least you know, I'm in my book,
Speaker 1: that I have improved that little bit, whether it's you
Speaker 1: know how I've dealt with my own children, in my
Speaker 1: own relationships, my perspective, all those things. You know, obviously
Speaker 1: when you're sixty three you're, you know, a shelley yourself physically,
Speaker 1: but I still love to get out there. I love
Speaker 1: to try to work out, to get the kids, rile
Speaker 1: the kids up once in a while show them whose boss.
Speaker 1: So that part when I can't do that's a little
Speaker 1: bit tough. But you know, I think, Um, I've tried
Speaker 1: to for I would say for ten years, because I
Speaker 1: played on the main circuit for fifteen and for the
Speaker 1: better part of the next I was actually playing more
Speaker 1: seniors champion, whatever event do you want to call that.
Speaker 1: Then I was commentating. Even so, I recognized that that's
Speaker 1: a great drug. You know. It's UH, one of the
Speaker 1: best drugs you can have that you get paid for something.
Speaker 1: You know, what's the expiration data most athletes? It's pretty
Speaker 1: damn quick. So if you think, you know, you can
Speaker 1: make it forty years, say, doing something and playing on
Speaker 1: a fairly regular basis, uh, it would be my duty
Speaker 1: to look at that like half full. But I was
Speaker 1: working hard for the course of the past ten years
Speaker 1: to sort of Wean myself off that addiction so that
Speaker 1: it would get to the stage where I'd be able
Speaker 1: to handle it when I didn't play anymore, and I
Speaker 1: think I've done pretty well at that. So I I
Speaker 1: take pride in that. I feel good about that, um,
Speaker 1: because that's something that you could easily get caught up
Speaker 1: in and just you know, I didn't want to be
Speaker 1: like Mr McEnroe, please come this way, you need to
Speaker 1: exit the court now or other we're gonna pull you
Speaker 1: off it, and it was getting closer, Um, so you
Speaker 1: gotta leave it to the other people just at some point.
Speaker 1: You know, I've really enjoyed the comments and I've I'm
Speaker 1: thinking I want to do another great run. You know,
Speaker 1: they're five years, whatever it is, Um, and then hopefully,
Speaker 1: you know, I want to go out like on a high,
Speaker 1: though you know, I don't want to be the same
Speaker 1: with that. You know, I feel like it's been good
Speaker 1: to me. Hopefully I've been good to the people I've
Speaker 1: worked for, but you want to go out and in
Speaker 1: a positive note for everyone. So that would be part
Speaker 1: of that. And the opportunity to do almost anything and
Speaker 1: more of a quiet where you can be on the
Speaker 1: beach in California a bit and sort of you know
Speaker 1: that Yin and Yang is great. Uh. So I you know,
Speaker 1: I've worked hard to get to the point where I
Speaker 1: feel like I want to enjoy myself as much as
Speaker 1: possible and put in emphasis on that and spend time
Speaker 1: with the people I want to be around, not with
Speaker 1: things that I have to do, uh, for reasons that
Speaker 1: don't have much you know, and they're not important enough
Speaker 1: to take serious, like just because it's money, for example. Uh,
Speaker 1: that would be one. So, you know, I think I've
Speaker 1: done a pretty good job going in that direction. For
Speaker 1: a while, when you played, a sense you were not
Speaker 1: one that would go from the hotel room to the
Speaker 1: Court of the gym to the restaurant, the same one
Speaker 1: every night. You you seem to value experience. You understood that.
Speaker 1: You know, it's a big world out there. There's more
Speaker 1: to it than tennis. So many players today, so many
Speaker 1: athletes today, limit themselves and I don't think they take
Speaker 1: in what the world has to offer, even though they're
Speaker 1: being you know, if they're flying around a these amazing
Speaker 1: places in the world, they don't they don't sense the
Speaker 1: possibility or they think that even embracing that's going to
Speaker 1: detract from their chances of winning a title. You're still
Speaker 1: pursuing experiences and sort of embracing what's going you're going
Speaker 1: to Antarctica to play a match with your brother Patrick
Speaker 1: this winter, the first ever matched down there, and we
Speaker 1: were talking you're you're just excited about that, the boat trip,
Speaker 1: just being in Antarctica. You seem to still have kind
Speaker 1: of a thirst and a passion for new experience and
Speaker 1: in the big wide world out there, that's definitely gonna
Speaker 1: be a new experience for me. I'm not a big
Speaker 1: boat guy, so you know, I don't want to get seasick,
Speaker 1: but that sounded like something like a bucket list thing,
Speaker 1: you know, and that's I've had a couple of is
Speaker 1: this year and the music side of things Um, and
Speaker 1: I've traveled to parts of the world. That's one of
Speaker 1: the great things that being a tennis player is that
Speaker 1: you do see a lot of the world that you
Speaker 1: never would otherwise see. But it is true. I'd like
Speaker 1: to tell you that I was able to sort of,
Speaker 1: you know, do everything while I was playing, but I
Speaker 1: remember somewhat early on in my career I'd be going
Speaker 1: out and I loved art we've talked about that, and
Speaker 1: go to galleries and museums and see things. That gets
Speaker 1: tiring mentally, you know, and I found that, like you,
Speaker 1: would fatigue me. So I actually had to back off
Speaker 1: on that and some of the things I would have
Speaker 1: wanted to do, and I would have wanted to meet
Speaker 1: with people, whether they're politically or otherwise, to try to
Speaker 1: learn more about the city. That I felt like I
Speaker 1: wasn't able to do. As a matter of fact, I
Speaker 1: did sort of pushed uh, I had this idea of
Speaker 1: doing a sort of a travel show. Obviously, the pandemic
Speaker 1: hit and that cut some of that off, but maybe
Speaker 1: the interest level to do but go to the places
Speaker 1: that I've been to that I hadn't really seen in
Speaker 1: the way I would have wanted to, and to meet
Speaker 1: the people in Stockholm, for example, meet people in situations
Speaker 1: that were out of the ordinary for me and so
Speaker 1: that I could continue to learn. I thought that the
Speaker 1: interesting for a network. Apparently it wasn't that interesting because
Speaker 1: it hasn't happened yet, but nonetheless there are there is
Speaker 1: part of me that felt like I could have done more,
Speaker 1: but I don't. You know. Again, that's another perfect example.
Speaker 1: Like well, I should have done this. You know, Hindsights, obviously,
Speaker 1: and it takes a lot of emotional effort to go
Speaker 1: out and do your thing and try to play up
Speaker 1: to the ability. Even when I was playing the champions tour,
Speaker 1: I felt like it took everything I had to try
Speaker 1: to do the best I could. And so you sort
Speaker 1: of are stuck a little bit into that hotel type
Speaker 1: of airport type thing. I was gonna do the first one,
Speaker 1: the first episod so where it would just be airport
Speaker 1: to airport to hotel to tendersport back and do the
Speaker 1: whole first episode like that and said, people seeing this
Speaker 1: is my life. Oh, just kidding, there's actually gonna be
Speaker 1: more to this, but hasn't gotten off the ground yet. Well,
Speaker 1: I can't imagine that there's much left on the bucket list,
Speaker 1: but then again, a lot of us never scratch everything
Speaker 1: off the list because you just add new things on there. John.
Speaker 1: But I think that in terms of people that I
Speaker 1: know of her or no, uh, a life that's been,
Speaker 1: it continues to be, well lived and interesting and fulfilling
Speaker 1: and rarely boring, uh, and fun. I hope you hope
Speaker 1: you understand that. If that's what it's about you. You're
Speaker 1: doing great man, and then you're an inspiration to me
Speaker 1: and a lot of other people in that area. Well,
Speaker 1: I appreciate that. You know, I I do feel very fortunate. Um,
Speaker 1: I do feel like some of it. You know, maybe
Speaker 1: I'm not so dumb after all. You know, maybe I know,
Speaker 1: I know what I'm talking about a little bit. Maybe
Speaker 1: I could get some of these kids their parents at
Speaker 1: my tennis academy to listen to me. You store, what
Speaker 1: do you know about tennis now? The game's changed a
Speaker 1: little more to it than just how you hit up forehand. Yes,
Speaker 1: as you heard, there's a lot more to John than tennis.
Speaker 1: Along those lines, I recommend you check out the excellent
Speaker 1: new documentary McEnroe on showtime. It traces the whole arc,
Speaker 1: how the legend was born but, more importantly, how he
Speaker 1: continues to grow and evolve. John told me that's what
Speaker 1: he was hoping the film would do. We hope you
Speaker 1: enjoyed my conversation with John. Encourage you to rate and
Speaker 1: review and subscribe. It really helps us. As always, my
Speaker 1: thanks to co Executive Producer Jennifer dempster and editor Jason
Speaker 1: White Hilt. You've got more guests coming up in season
Speaker 1: five of foul. Who you got, and check out our
Speaker 1: catalog of back episodes. I'll talk to you soon. One