WEBVTT - The Conscious Kid w/ Ramon Stephens 0:00:02.040 --> 0:00:04.880 Welcome to Katie's Crib, a production of Shonda land Audio 0:00:05.000 --> 0:00:15.400 in partnership with I Heart Radio. Hi everybody, and welcome 0:00:15.440 --> 0:00:18.520 back to Katie's Crib. Um. As you guys know, we 0:00:18.560 --> 0:00:22.200 are working really hard this season on the topic of 0:00:22.320 --> 0:00:26.439 raising anti racist kids. So I am really excited to 0:00:26.560 --> 0:00:29.760 have a today's guest on the podcast. His name is 0:00:29.880 --> 0:00:32.839 Ramons Stevens and he is the executive director of The 0:00:32.920 --> 0:00:37.120 Conscious Kid. The Conscious Kid is my favorite one of 0:00:37.159 --> 0:00:40.760 my very very favorite Instagram follows. Follow if you can. 0:00:40.920 --> 0:00:44.920 It's a nonprofit that promotes access to children's books that 0:00:45.040 --> 0:00:48.919 center on underrepresented groups and authors. Ramone and I talk 0:00:49.000 --> 0:00:52.360 a lot about having critical conversations about race with your 0:00:52.400 --> 0:00:55.680 kids at a very young age, and how reading books 0:00:55.720 --> 0:00:58.640 can be such a great jumping off point. It's just 0:00:58.800 --> 0:01:02.280 so helpful to like take a look at your own 0:01:02.840 --> 0:01:05.720 children's libraries, you guys, like, what type of books are 0:01:05.720 --> 0:01:08.759 you reading to your kids? Is everyone represented in those books? 0:01:08.800 --> 0:01:12.440 Are there some authors that are questionable? Ramon and I 0:01:12.680 --> 0:01:16.960 actually talk a lot about a very very very famous 0:01:17.040 --> 0:01:21.119 children's book author who you might want to reconsider being 0:01:21.160 --> 0:01:24.080 part of your children's library. So, oh, a little bit 0:01:24.120 --> 0:01:27.080 about Ramon because he's brilliant. He's a PhD student at 0:01:27.080 --> 0:01:32.200 the University of California. His research focuses on recruitment, retention, resilience, 0:01:32.240 --> 0:01:36.679 and student voices for marginalized populations in the educational spaces. 0:01:37.160 --> 0:01:40.400 Whoa oh, and he's also an amazing father. So here 0:01:40.400 --> 0:01:43.000 we go, guys. Here is my conversation with the one 0:01:43.000 --> 0:01:49.640 and only Ramon Stevens from The Conscious Kid. Ramon, you're impressive, 0:01:49.920 --> 0:01:53.400 you're smart, We're very like and you're in the select 0:01:53.600 --> 0:01:59.400 few of men we have had on Katie's grew no 0:01:59.640 --> 0:02:02.720 much of appreciate it, much appreciative. I'm still a student learning, 0:02:02.760 --> 0:02:05.800 so I appreciate that. I appreciate you having me here. 0:02:05.800 --> 0:02:08.919 It's it's super humbling and I'm so honored. Oh my gosh, 0:02:09.000 --> 0:02:15.240 I I I am part of this group. There's millions 0:02:15.240 --> 0:02:19.120 of us of white moms who are waking up way 0:02:19.120 --> 0:02:24.679 too late to my white privilege, um and just freaking 0:02:24.720 --> 0:02:31.960 out and seeing how already systemic racism is prevalent in 0:02:32.000 --> 0:02:35.480 my household and in my parenting of my child, and 0:02:35.560 --> 0:02:40.800 just learning these things and your Instagram account, you guys, 0:02:40.880 --> 0:02:46.560 the Conscious Kid has really been such a tool to me. 0:02:47.120 --> 0:02:51.560 Tell me why how you started this Instagram account? Yeah. 0:02:51.680 --> 0:02:54.960 So what's interesting is that of most entrepreneurs, you know, 0:02:55.240 --> 0:02:57.799 businesses are started out of personal need. So a partner 0:02:57.800 --> 0:03:00.320 and I, you know, I'm black, she's Jack. The these 0:03:00.600 --> 0:03:04.520 my kids, you know, they're obviously mixed. They look very black. 0:03:04.639 --> 0:03:07.840 So we're looking for books to affirm their identities and 0:03:07.840 --> 0:03:10.560 affirm who they are. And so we remember going to 0:03:10.800 --> 0:03:13.880 our local library, which had like tens of thousands of books, 0:03:13.919 --> 0:03:15.640 and we were like, you know, can you bring us 0:03:15.639 --> 0:03:18.040 any books that have black children? And she was like, oh, 0:03:18.240 --> 0:03:20.400 like I can tell the little be same black. Kind 0:03:20.400 --> 0:03:23.920 of like alarmed her a little bit, and she had 0:03:23.960 --> 0:03:25.440 no way of looking up in the computer. There wasn't 0:03:25.480 --> 0:03:27.120 like a query for it. And she was gone for 0:03:27.480 --> 0:03:29.880 several hours and then came back with this post and 0:03:29.960 --> 0:03:32.400 note with three books. One of the books I remember 0:03:32.440 --> 0:03:35.040 was was a black girl praying together her hair wasn't nappy, 0:03:35.120 --> 0:03:40.320 and the other two were equally disempowering, I know. And 0:03:40.400 --> 0:03:42.440 so and so we're like, you know, maybe maybe this 0:03:42.480 --> 0:03:45.040 is just this library, right, So we start doing more 0:03:45.080 --> 0:03:46.960 research and going to the libraries, and then we find 0:03:46.960 --> 0:03:50.760 out that this is like a national systemic problem. There's 0:03:50.760 --> 0:03:53.480 a major gap in representation of kids of color, and 0:03:53.520 --> 0:03:56.760 particularly black kids. And then even more so, of the 0:03:56.800 --> 0:03:58.560 book that you can find, most of them are not 0:03:58.560 --> 0:04:02.320 written by black folks, a little have inaccurate messaging, problematic narratives, 0:04:02.440 --> 0:04:05.800 and those narratives will be appropriated, which essentially drives income 0:04:05.880 --> 0:04:08.560 out of the black community. So um as we start 0:04:08.600 --> 0:04:10.880 talking to other parents in our circles who are also 0:04:11.000 --> 0:04:12.800 parents of color, were like, you know, how are you doing. 0:04:12.800 --> 0:04:14.400 Are you finding books? And they're like, no, we can't 0:04:14.400 --> 0:04:16.760 find anything, And so we just spend all this time 0:04:16.760 --> 0:04:19.040 doing research, and we're like, you know, let's just make 0:04:19.080 --> 0:04:21.640 this a project and start spreading these resources to parents 0:04:21.640 --> 0:04:24.919 and families and educators about how to get access to 0:04:24.960 --> 0:04:27.240 these books. But then also start understanding, you know, how 0:04:27.240 --> 0:04:30.240 do we have these critical conversations about race at a 0:04:30.240 --> 0:04:32.080 really young age so we can start to push back 0:04:32.080 --> 0:04:35.840 against some of this systemic racism. What I'm so impressed 0:04:35.839 --> 0:04:40.200 by it is that it's like, you guys are vetting 0:04:40.360 --> 0:04:45.320 these books. Not only do they have characters that are 0:04:45.360 --> 0:04:49.240 black or mixed, or have different hair, different eyes, different backgrounds, 0:04:49.279 --> 0:04:52.720 all of these things, but they've been authored by black authors, 0:04:52.880 --> 0:04:56.320 like do you're you're doing the vetting for us, which 0:04:56.360 --> 0:05:00.400 is I really appreciate it because I'm trying to help 0:05:00.440 --> 0:05:03.960 my kid immediately. Sure, sure, yeah. So we teach critical 0:05:04.040 --> 0:05:06.520 race media literacy. Um, it's also referred to as critical 0:05:06.560 --> 0:05:08.760 media literacy. And what that does is that just looks 0:05:08.800 --> 0:05:10.800 at all the different ways when of how to consume 0:05:10.839 --> 0:05:13.840 media critically, whether it's books, whether it's school curriculum, and 0:05:13.839 --> 0:05:15.920 to be honest, it's it's really an orientation of your 0:05:15.920 --> 0:05:17.479 whole life, right, and at the root of it is 0:05:17.480 --> 0:05:20.320 critical consciousness. So it's being able to question these systems 0:05:20.360 --> 0:05:22.800 of inequity, not just in the content but behind the 0:05:22.839 --> 0:05:25.720 power structures that created the book itself. Who profit off 0:05:25.720 --> 0:05:28.200 it's it, who owns it? What are the interests? You know, 0:05:28.240 --> 0:05:31.400 what characters are being centered? You know, um, where does 0:05:31.440 --> 0:05:33.800 the money go? So all of these different things kind 0:05:33.800 --> 0:05:36.240 of going too. Yeah, and and there's because there's there is, 0:05:36.279 --> 0:05:37.880 there's all. There's all these books out, but a lot 0:05:37.920 --> 0:05:39.920 of folks are just kind of throwing out narratives too, 0:05:40.240 --> 0:05:43.960 I think capitalize financially on these racial conversations, which is 0:05:44.720 --> 0:05:47.400 terrible because what it does is reproduces like all these 0:05:47.720 --> 0:05:50.279 racial and equies and understandings of race. So by going 0:05:50.320 --> 0:05:52.400 through the messaging, looking at the positions of the characters, 0:05:52.400 --> 0:05:55.520 who centered, who's invisible? UM? Who has the power to 0:05:55.600 --> 0:05:58.320 tell someone else's story? Right? What is that? How does 0:05:58.360 --> 0:06:00.599 that shape the narrative? UM? All of these kind of 0:06:00.600 --> 0:06:03.440 going into the selection of literature and media and content 0:06:03.560 --> 0:06:05.480 that that we put up on our Instagram and share 0:06:05.800 --> 0:06:10.240 with educators and families alike. I love that we just 0:06:10.279 --> 0:06:15.640 had on Dr Beverly Daniel Tatum. She's amazing. But we 0:06:15.720 --> 0:06:19.440 talked a lot about how to be critically conscious and 0:06:19.440 --> 0:06:21.600 how to touch that to your kids. And so what's 0:06:21.640 --> 0:06:24.800 amazing about your Instagram is like you're looking at these 0:06:24.839 --> 0:06:27.919 books through like she's talking about a critical lens to 0:06:28.000 --> 0:06:30.520 make sure of all of these things. And I feel 0:06:31.480 --> 0:06:34.919 like if you can help teach yourself to have a 0:06:34.960 --> 0:06:38.560 critical consciousness and then your children model after you to 0:06:38.720 --> 0:06:41.880 also think critically, like you said, it applies to so 0:06:41.920 --> 0:06:46.679 many things. Um okay, And so now we're seeing, thanks 0:06:46.720 --> 0:06:48.800 to the conscious kid and the work you guys are 0:06:48.839 --> 0:06:52.359 doing that a lot of these classic books they're just 0:06:52.440 --> 0:06:57.440 not great. They're actually extremely problematic, and one in particular 0:06:57.480 --> 0:06:59.800 that I came across in your work, which I had 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:04.720 absolutely no idea about, is Dr SEUs, you and your 0:07:04.760 --> 0:07:07.560 wife Katie. You guys wrote a groundbreaking research article on 0:07:07.600 --> 0:07:11.880 it titled the cat is out of the Bag Orientalism, 0:07:11.920 --> 0:07:16.080 anti blackness, and white supremacy in Dr Seus's children's books. 0:07:16.520 --> 0:07:19.480 Can you share a little bit about your research cat 0:07:19.560 --> 0:07:22.920 is all the way out of the bag on that one? Um? Yeah, 0:07:23.000 --> 0:07:26.120 So the Doctor SEUs project came specifically out of this 0:07:26.200 --> 0:07:29.200 narrative when we're talking about starting the Conscious Kid, where 0:07:29.200 --> 0:07:31.480 we were looking at the books and our kids preschool 0:07:31.520 --> 0:07:33.680 and I will never forget my first year in my 0:07:33.720 --> 0:07:35.960 PhD program and they're giving me a tour of the 0:07:35.960 --> 0:07:39.000 school and there was like this Doctor SEUs statue and 0:07:39.040 --> 0:07:43.440 they're like listen the Doctor shows. And my friend next 0:07:43.480 --> 0:07:45.160 to me he goes, man, do you all know about 0:07:45.200 --> 0:07:48.280 all the anti Asian Japanese cartoons that came out? I 0:07:48.560 --> 0:07:50.040 had never heard of it, and I was like wait what? 0:07:50.600 --> 0:07:52.600 And so I go home. I talked to Katie and 0:07:52.600 --> 0:07:56.000 I'm like, yo, you know. Dr SEUs was super racist. 0:07:56.320 --> 0:07:58.120 So we start looking at the cartoons and they were 0:07:58.160 --> 0:08:01.320 just horrific, using the N word for black people, had 0:08:01.400 --> 0:08:03.920 him dressed him up like monkeys, had all kind of 0:08:04.000 --> 0:08:06.520 Japanese slurs. Then there was this narrative that was like, oh, 0:08:06.560 --> 0:08:09.480 maybe in his life he got better and changed. We're like, okay, well, 0:08:09.560 --> 0:08:11.840 let's let's just look at all these books. I'm kind 0:08:11.880 --> 0:08:14.640 of just curious personally because we all grew up reading it. 0:08:14.640 --> 0:08:16.720 It's like a staple in every school. We're like, let's 0:08:16.760 --> 0:08:19.520 see is it really changing, because I don't know if 0:08:19.560 --> 0:08:22.360 you can really just ship like that overnight. So we 0:08:22.440 --> 0:08:25.040 went through his entire children's book collection and we coded 0:08:25.120 --> 0:08:27.440 for and we used all the critical media codes as 0:08:27.440 --> 0:08:32.079 far as like dominance, power, positionality, who's president, who's being centered? Um, 0:08:32.120 --> 0:08:34.880 how are depictions of people of color? What is their 0:08:34.920 --> 0:08:37.720 position and relationship to the dominant characters or white characters 0:08:37.720 --> 0:08:40.840 in the books. And we're like, wow, of all the characters, 0:08:41.000 --> 0:08:44.800 all the black people all look like monkeys or have 0:08:45.040 --> 0:08:48.000 those caricature faces. And then so they argument was like, okay, 0:08:48.000 --> 0:08:49.599 it was a hording. Here, here's who was supposed to 0:08:49.640 --> 0:08:51.760 be like this apology. But then we're looking at the 0:08:51.840 --> 0:08:53.840 book and it's got this like bright yellow face with 0:08:53.880 --> 0:08:55.520 these chopsticks, and we're like, there's still a lot of 0:08:55.559 --> 0:08:58.640 problematic stereotypes. And then the other one is this is 0:08:58.640 --> 0:09:01.160 another one of those apologies, is this sneeches where it's like, basically, 0:09:01.160 --> 0:09:03.880 this a quick synopsis. There's a group people that have 0:09:03.880 --> 0:09:05.920 stars in their belly in the story, and then there's 0:09:05.920 --> 0:09:08.200 another group without stars in their belly. And the people 0:09:08.240 --> 0:09:10.240 without stars in their belly, you know, they're excluded, they 0:09:10.240 --> 0:09:12.599 feel sad, um and you kind of get picked on 0:09:12.640 --> 0:09:15.320 a little bit. Um. But basically the story ends when 0:09:15.360 --> 0:09:17.000 the group that doesn't have stars in their belly they 0:09:17.000 --> 0:09:18.760 get stars in their belly and they become happy or 0:09:18.800 --> 0:09:23.160 like that. That's all kind of enforces a conformity narrative, right, 0:09:23.160 --> 0:09:25.600 Why why can't those characters just be happy without stars, 0:09:26.160 --> 0:09:28.960 happy who they are? Right? You started talking about savior 0:09:29.080 --> 0:09:33.080 narratives within books and assimilating into these dominant narratives um, 0:09:33.280 --> 0:09:35.440 and so we're like, that's kind of problematic as well. 0:09:35.480 --> 0:09:38.079 I don't really know if that's an apology. And so 0:09:38.360 --> 0:09:41.160 all these patterns just crossed all the literature. But when 0:09:41.200 --> 0:09:44.199 we dropped all the findings, it was like a bomb 0:09:44.200 --> 0:09:46.600 went off almost And we're not the first person to 0:09:46.640 --> 0:09:49.120 find these things either, like we cited other researchers. Dr 0:09:49.200 --> 0:09:51.240 Philip Nell, for example, did a lot of work on this. 0:09:51.480 --> 0:09:53.480 There wasn't anything that was new, but maybe the ways 0:09:53.480 --> 0:09:55.040 in which that we packed up the whole thing. It 0:09:55.120 --> 0:09:57.760 was kind of an eye opening for everyone because most 0:09:57.760 --> 0:10:02.599 of the studies weren't specifically Navy. You know, there's anti blackness, orientalism, 0:10:02.679 --> 0:10:04.839 all of these things, and and then depiction of women 0:10:04.840 --> 0:10:07.240 in the book, right, and their books are subservient. I 0:10:07.320 --> 0:10:13.400 got the whole Uh Sus cannon for my son's shower 0:10:14.440 --> 0:10:17.880 and I have not opened them. What's your The feedback 0:10:18.000 --> 0:10:20.920 on conscious kid to all of these findings are youth 0:10:21.160 --> 0:10:25.200 saying that we shouldn't read Dr SEUs anymore? Because I 0:10:25.280 --> 0:10:27.160 am of the opinion that we should not. This is 0:10:27.160 --> 0:10:29.640 a common debate, right, this idea should we swap it out? Like? 0:10:29.679 --> 0:10:31.760 Can we still use these books to teach about these things? 0:10:32.120 --> 0:10:34.719 The problem with that is that if we're going to 0:10:34.840 --> 0:10:37.840 teach about racism or marginality, we should probably use a 0:10:37.840 --> 0:10:40.520 lot better tools and learning from a racist. If I should, 0:10:40.520 --> 0:10:42.440 I do I want to learn about anti semitism from 0:10:42.440 --> 0:10:45.640 an anti semi I don't think so. So although we 0:10:45.720 --> 0:10:48.000 can use these books to teach. There are much better 0:10:48.080 --> 0:10:50.959 books written by people from those communities that unpack those 0:10:51.000 --> 0:10:53.640 issues a lot better with children. The other problem with 0:10:53.760 --> 0:10:56.040 still using those books is that you can still reify 0:10:56.320 --> 0:11:00.640 stereotypes and unconscious bias, not knowing that you're doing that 0:11:00.920 --> 0:11:02.600 as you're using it as a tool, still seeing all 0:11:02.600 --> 0:11:05.080 those problematic depictions and narratives of people of color and 0:11:05.120 --> 0:11:07.480 women when there are zero women of color in any 0:11:07.520 --> 0:11:09.960 of the books. By the way, all of those things 0:11:09.960 --> 0:11:13.400 are still sending messages about what matters, who matters um 0:11:13.480 --> 0:11:15.600 And if you're a young child, your brain is so 0:11:15.640 --> 0:11:18.280 impressionable that the things that you're exposing children too, you 0:11:18.320 --> 0:11:20.719 need to be extremely mindful of. So if you want 0:11:20.720 --> 0:11:23.520 to teach about equity, you want to teach about patriarchy. 0:11:23.559 --> 0:11:25.720 If you want to teach about racism, go from people 0:11:25.720 --> 0:11:30.080 in those communities that experience it themselves and have expertise 0:11:30.080 --> 0:11:35.280 on it. You've also vetted nursery rhymes that are inherently racist, 0:11:35.440 --> 0:11:41.040 or like just the worst and like I'm retiring head shoulders, 0:11:41.120 --> 0:11:45.560 NAIs and toes goodbye, like retired, that song is not 0:11:45.640 --> 0:11:49.960 to be sung anymore. When you were a kid, do 0:11:50.000 --> 0:11:53.800 you remember they're not being books for you. And do 0:11:53.840 --> 0:11:57.040 you remember the first time you read something where you 0:11:57.160 --> 0:12:03.000 found yourself reflected in the pages? I very vividly remember this. 0:12:03.040 --> 0:12:05.080 So my my folks were always trying to be pretty 0:12:05.120 --> 0:12:08.400 intentional about having like black books in our house. But 0:12:08.559 --> 0:12:10.360 I knew that once I left that house and went 0:12:10.400 --> 0:12:12.200 to school, I was not going to be seeing any 0:12:12.240 --> 0:12:15.480 black people. And I can remember the first time I 0:12:15.520 --> 0:12:18.359 saw a black person. I'm not gonna say I saw myself, 0:12:18.440 --> 0:12:20.840 but it was we were reading Huck Finn in my 0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:22.920 second grade class, and I think it says the N 0:12:23.000 --> 0:12:25.880 word like several hundred times, and I was the only 0:12:25.880 --> 0:12:28.280 black kid in his class, and it was super awkward 0:12:28.280 --> 0:12:31.800 because the teacher was like, you know, you're not supposed 0:12:31.880 --> 0:12:35.040 to say it, but just saying it and it was 0:12:35.080 --> 0:12:36.880 so hard, and I was like, I was because it's 0:12:36.880 --> 0:12:38.280 written in the book and we don't want to erase 0:12:38.360 --> 0:12:42.440 this history. And I was not engaged by the story. 0:12:42.720 --> 0:12:44.880 I wasn't really even sure how to react to that. 0:12:44.960 --> 0:12:47.360 I'm like, this kid hasn't talked to me all year. 0:12:47.480 --> 0:12:49.200 Now he wants to say the INN word out loud 0:12:49.280 --> 0:12:53.160 during the book when he's reading it, And what a memory, 0:12:53.200 --> 0:12:57.480 what a visual like all of these kind of American 0:12:57.559 --> 0:13:00.800 cannon books. Um, that's so much embedded, like white supremacy, 0:13:00.840 --> 0:13:03.760 and it's so many other problematic things. The first time 0:13:03.760 --> 0:13:05.600 I'm trying to remember where I actually saw a black 0:13:05.600 --> 0:13:08.040 person that I related to in a book, probably wasn't 0:13:08.080 --> 0:13:12.240 until I got to college, um, and I started reading. Um, 0:13:12.280 --> 0:13:15.800 Tony Morrison might even the bluestide I can't remember, but 0:13:16.080 --> 0:13:18.160 it was definitely Tony Morrison where I was able to 0:13:18.280 --> 0:13:21.240 see myself. Started reading the biography of Malcolm IX saught myself. 0:13:21.240 --> 0:13:23.480 But it wasn't until I got much older. I didn't 0:13:23.480 --> 0:13:25.320 see him in the curriculum. I'm not going to see 0:13:25.360 --> 0:13:27.439 it in any of the books that were even available. 0:13:28.559 --> 0:13:31.640 Because we grew up in the nineties, the color blind era, 0:13:31.840 --> 0:13:33.520 most people aren't even looking about it, and even if 0:13:33.520 --> 0:13:35.440 you said something, it was like, you know, dragging your 0:13:35.520 --> 0:13:38.360 nails across the chalkboard, like hash hash. We don't talk 0:13:38.360 --> 0:13:41.480 about that, you know. I think my parents thought they 0:13:41.480 --> 0:13:45.160 were doing such a better job than their parents, who 0:13:45.320 --> 0:13:49.920 were probably vocally horrible, and then they were just let's 0:13:49.960 --> 0:13:53.079 say nothing and be nice to everybody, is what we're 0:13:53.080 --> 0:13:57.120 going to teach and everyone's equal. And now I know 0:13:57.320 --> 0:14:02.400 that is also obviously not working. Like people know, we've 0:14:02.440 --> 0:14:04.760 got a lot of work to do. Um. Can you 0:14:04.840 --> 0:14:06.839 share any of the books that you read with your 0:14:06.920 --> 0:14:11.839 children to ensure that they saw themselves represented in the narrative? Absolutely. 0:14:12.000 --> 0:14:14.800 I can remember like a really standout book that made 0:14:14.840 --> 0:14:17.000 an impact for them when they were younger, and as 0:14:17.040 --> 0:14:19.600 a book written by Derek Barnes, who's a black author. 0:14:20.040 --> 0:14:23.080 And what made his books unique is that he started 0:14:23.160 --> 0:14:26.960 focusing on black boys in particular, because black boy narratives 0:14:26.960 --> 0:14:30.640 were just gone absolutely and oftentime, falling their stereotypes of 0:14:30.680 --> 0:14:33.360 either being some kind of pain narrative you know, they're 0:14:33.360 --> 0:14:37.560 trying to get out the hood or like yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:14:37.600 --> 0:14:40.040 all those kind of deficit deficient narratives. And so he 0:14:40.080 --> 0:14:42.960 started writing these empowering books. Um. And so one of 0:14:42.960 --> 0:14:45.960 his books was called Crown, you know, um, and it's 0:14:46.040 --> 0:14:48.640 it's it's about the power of black barbershops, and it's 0:14:48.680 --> 0:14:50.400 about this kid that goes and gets his first kind 0:14:50.400 --> 0:14:54.040 of fresh haircut, right, wants to look fresh. But we remember, 0:14:54.080 --> 0:14:56.360 like our kids looking at those books and they're like, oh, 0:14:56.400 --> 0:14:58.560 that's that's my kind of hair. I have hair like that, 0:14:58.640 --> 0:15:00.800 and I'll look how that's that? What daddy did? We 0:15:00.840 --> 0:15:03.320 went to get a doughnut and we had all these 0:15:03.360 --> 0:15:06.440 similar kind of kind of things. Another one is called 0:15:06.480 --> 0:15:09.560 yeah called Little Leaders Both Women in Black History, which 0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:12.640 is great because it's a board book. It has all 0:15:12.680 --> 0:15:14.520 these different profiles of a lot of black women. You've 0:15:14.520 --> 0:15:18.240 probably never heard of, these great empowering descriptions written by 0:15:18.280 --> 0:15:20.840 this black woman. Um. So that is a great one, 0:15:20.960 --> 0:15:24.320 especially to entree for young children when talking about issues 0:15:24.320 --> 0:15:28.600 of So great for us because I feel like I 0:15:28.680 --> 0:15:31.240 can't do a good job teaching a kid how to 0:15:31.280 --> 0:15:35.360 be an anti racist if I'm not also learning myself. 0:15:35.560 --> 0:15:39.240 I can't. You know, there's so many things I don't know, um, 0:15:39.280 --> 0:15:42.400 and I'm so behind when it comes to yeah, like 0:15:43.080 --> 0:15:46.560 powerful black women in history who invented stuff and made 0:15:46.560 --> 0:15:49.400 stuff and black men like wasn't taught in school, Like 0:15:49.440 --> 0:15:52.200 I have a lot to do and then to get 0:15:52.240 --> 0:15:57.520 to show that to my kids. So that's a great idea. Yes, yes, um, 0:15:57.560 --> 0:16:00.240 we will be learning just as much, I swear as 0:16:00.280 --> 0:16:01.680 the kids. We were like, oh did you know that? 0:16:01.680 --> 0:16:03.560 I didn't know that? I mean I knew that, did 0:16:03.600 --> 0:16:07.840 I knew that what's cool about books is that everybody 0:16:07.920 --> 0:16:10.640 learns like a family learning tool, right, And although it 0:16:10.760 --> 0:16:14.040 is simplified at a nice young age, I swear like, 0:16:14.080 --> 0:16:16.760 if you are learning about these concepts, the simplicity and 0:16:16.800 --> 0:16:19.960 the accessibility of the language is actually really helpful for parents. 0:16:19.960 --> 0:16:23.560 So um, we always say like learning and using books 0:16:23.760 --> 0:16:27.440 is actually a group experience. Everybody ends up learning from it. Um. 0:16:27.560 --> 0:16:30.240 I remember there's a children's book about George Crumb, for example, 0:16:30.320 --> 0:16:31.920 this black guy that have been at the potato chip? 0:16:31.960 --> 0:16:35.960 I had no idea, um, and you can amazing though 0:16:36.000 --> 0:16:39.280 potato chip is my favorite food, right, so the fact 0:16:39.320 --> 0:16:43.800 that I've never googled who invented the potato chip is ridiculous. 0:16:44.880 --> 0:16:46.960 The other thing I want to say about the conscious 0:16:47.040 --> 0:16:48.720 kid and why it's so helpful is that when you 0:16:48.840 --> 0:16:52.320 go to all the books you guys have to list. 0:16:52.400 --> 0:16:56.280 What's great is you've listed what age. I think you're 0:16:56.320 --> 0:16:59.680 making it so easy for parents to not have to 0:16:59.680 --> 0:17:02.320 look up if it's age appropriate, to not to be 0:17:02.360 --> 0:17:04.800 able to trust that the author and the topics and 0:17:04.800 --> 0:17:06.760 the themes in each book is something that we should 0:17:06.800 --> 0:17:09.520 be proud to be sharing with our families and our children, 0:17:09.680 --> 0:17:14.560 is like all of the work. So first, so parents, 0:17:15.000 --> 0:17:16.919 just get the books, read them to your kids, but 0:17:17.000 --> 0:17:19.439 know that that's just a starting point. There's a lot 0:17:19.560 --> 0:17:22.200 of action that has to take place after the books. 0:17:32.400 --> 0:17:35.360 Books are such a great way to learn collectively, as 0:17:35.400 --> 0:17:37.919 you said, but are there any other entry points to 0:17:37.960 --> 0:17:41.119 having these critical conversations about race with our kids. It 0:17:41.119 --> 0:17:43.120 could be a children's book and be that starting point. 0:17:43.160 --> 0:17:45.479 It could be a simple something that they see in 0:17:45.520 --> 0:17:48.480 their everyday experiences that you related to UM, and then 0:17:48.520 --> 0:17:50.399 you build on it later. I don't expect going to 0:17:50.480 --> 0:17:53.280 be critical race theorists overnight at age three, right, But 0:17:53.480 --> 0:17:56.840 kind of one particular example is UM. A lot of 0:17:56.840 --> 0:17:58.200 parents are talking about, like how do I talk to 0:17:58.280 --> 0:18:00.919 my kids about these protests and everything going on. So 0:18:01.200 --> 0:18:04.359 I was talking to my five year old son, UM. 0:18:04.400 --> 0:18:06.520 He was asking questions about what was going on, and so, 0:18:06.760 --> 0:18:09.480 you know, I just basically had this conversation. I said, 0:18:09.480 --> 0:18:12.280 you know what, you know, a long time ago, you know, 0:18:12.320 --> 0:18:15.240 there were some people that put a lot of unfair 0:18:15.280 --> 0:18:18.200 policies and laws in place that are still around and 0:18:18.520 --> 0:18:22.159 not treating black people and people of color fairly in 0:18:22.200 --> 0:18:25.200 this country. And people are outside protesting because they want 0:18:25.200 --> 0:18:27.320 to see a change, um. And so just kind of 0:18:27.320 --> 0:18:30.040 breaking it down really simple like that. He immediately got it, 0:18:30.040 --> 0:18:32.600 he understood it. There's this misnomer that if you talk 0:18:32.680 --> 0:18:34.280 to race about a child like to you know, like 0:18:34.280 --> 0:18:37.320 you're going to traumatize them or or scare them. But kids, 0:18:37.400 --> 0:18:40.199 kids are actually very intelligent. They understand what's going on. 0:18:40.280 --> 0:18:41.959 And the funny thing is that kids are very much 0:18:42.000 --> 0:18:44.479 similar to adults, right, They were very similar as far 0:18:44.480 --> 0:18:48.320 as the way that we learned things using stories, using narratives, UM, 0:18:48.440 --> 0:18:51.960 experiences in their everyday life that you can relate to. UM. 0:18:52.000 --> 0:18:54.000 These are all things that are useful when we're talking 0:18:54.000 --> 0:18:57.239 about kind of racing our experiences. The thing that I 0:18:57.280 --> 0:18:59.840 think is, so I'm trying to think of not as 0:18:59.840 --> 0:19:03.800 a scary thing but like an empowering thing that rather 0:19:03.880 --> 0:19:07.280 than my kid getting it elsewhere, well, it's already happening. 0:19:07.280 --> 0:19:09.800 I mean, the racism is there, like it's there, so 0:19:10.280 --> 0:19:12.760 I have to get in there, you know what I mean. 0:19:12.800 --> 0:19:15.159 I have to get in there, you know, in the 0:19:15.280 --> 0:19:19.600 developmentally appropriate way. But it's very helpful to me to 0:19:19.640 --> 0:19:22.320 hear how parents are having these conversations so that I 0:19:22.359 --> 0:19:26.560 can practice and figure out how I'm going to not 0:19:26.640 --> 0:19:29.840 be color silent, right, just getting that conversation where we 0:19:29.880 --> 0:19:32.240 can at least talk about issues of race, and then 0:19:32.320 --> 0:19:35.440 using that as a starting point. Everybody obviously learns differently. 0:19:35.600 --> 0:19:38.280 Some learn about it quicker, some become more passionate than others. 0:19:38.320 --> 0:19:40.399 But once you have that starting point, you can build 0:19:40.400 --> 0:19:43.040 on that for life and by the time there our age, 0:19:43.080 --> 0:19:46.520 they'll be sweeping us under the rug. Oh your lips 0:19:46.560 --> 0:19:49.679 to God's ears, like please, I hope that is the case. 0:19:49.920 --> 0:19:53.560 Since you've started the Instagram account, I feel like there's 0:19:53.600 --> 0:19:56.639 even more going on. Can you explain how that transition 0:19:56.680 --> 0:19:58.600 has sort of happened and do you feel like your 0:19:58.600 --> 0:20:02.280 mission has even changed? Absolutely? So we start off, you know, 0:20:02.320 --> 0:20:04.600 with the children's book focus, but we do have a 0:20:04.640 --> 0:20:06.960 lot of experience. People are fifteen years experience in this work, 0:20:06.960 --> 0:20:08.920 and so we know that a lot of these issues 0:20:08.960 --> 0:20:12.640 are embedded structurally within the laws and the policies and norms. 0:20:13.000 --> 0:20:16.760 So we've expanded just from doing children's books to doing research, policy, advocacy, 0:20:17.040 --> 0:20:20.879 rent relate basically, you know, a critical anti racist space 0:20:21.040 --> 0:20:23.640 online all the different ways that it can look. Children's 0:20:23.680 --> 0:20:26.040 books are just a starting point, right when we talk 0:20:26.080 --> 0:20:29.199 about how do we raise anti racist children, how do 0:20:29.240 --> 0:20:32.119 we raise children with critical consciousness? When you're doing this 0:20:32.160 --> 0:20:33.919 inequity where you have to come out of from multiple 0:20:33.960 --> 0:20:36.920 different angles, right and at the very very least, it's 0:20:36.960 --> 0:20:40.000 like lifestyle shift. Right. The conversations you're having with your 0:20:40.080 --> 0:20:42.399 child matter, but it's also about very much about what 0:20:42.440 --> 0:20:45.080 you're doing. Who are you surrounding yourself with. Do you 0:20:45.119 --> 0:20:47.800 live in a segregated neighborhood, you go to a segregated school. 0:20:48.119 --> 0:20:50.359