Speaker 1: Welcome to Katie's Crib, a production of Shonda land Audio
Speaker 1: in partnership with I Heart Radio. Hi everybody, and welcome
Speaker 1: back to Katie's Crib. Um. As you guys know, we
Speaker 1: are working really hard this season on the topic of
Speaker 1: raising anti racist kids. So I am really excited to
Speaker 1: have a today's guest on the podcast. His name is
Speaker 1: Ramons Stevens and he is the executive director of The
Speaker 1: Conscious Kid. The Conscious Kid is my favorite one of
Speaker 1: my very very favorite Instagram follows. Follow if you can.
Speaker 1: It's a nonprofit that promotes access to children's books that
Speaker 1: center on underrepresented groups and authors. Ramone and I talk
Speaker 1: a lot about having critical conversations about race with your
Speaker 1: kids at a very young age, and how reading books
Speaker 1: can be such a great jumping off point. It's just
Speaker 1: so helpful to like take a look at your own
Speaker 1: children's libraries, you guys, like, what type of books are
Speaker 1: you reading to your kids? Is everyone represented in those books?
Speaker 1: Are there some authors that are questionable? Ramon and I
Speaker 1: actually talk a lot about a very very very famous
Speaker 1: children's book author who you might want to reconsider being
Speaker 1: part of your children's library. So, oh, a little bit
Speaker 1: about Ramon because he's brilliant. He's a PhD student at
Speaker 1: the University of California. His research focuses on recruitment, retention, resilience,
Speaker 1: and student voices for marginalized populations in the educational spaces.
Speaker 1: Whoa oh, and he's also an amazing father. So here
Speaker 1: we go, guys. Here is my conversation with the one
Speaker 1: and only Ramon Stevens from The Conscious Kid. Ramon, you're impressive,
Speaker 1: you're smart, We're very like and you're in the select
Speaker 1: few of men we have had on Katie's grew no
Speaker 1: much of appreciate it, much appreciative. I'm still a student learning,
Speaker 1: so I appreciate that. I appreciate you having me here.
Speaker 1: It's it's super humbling and I'm so honored. Oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: I I I am part of this group. There's millions
Speaker 1: of us of white moms who are waking up way
Speaker 1: too late to my white privilege, um and just freaking
Speaker 1: out and seeing how already systemic racism is prevalent in
Speaker 1: my household and in my parenting of my child, and
Speaker 1: just learning these things and your Instagram account, you guys,
Speaker 1: the Conscious Kid has really been such a tool to me.
Speaker 1: Tell me why how you started this Instagram account? Yeah.
Speaker 1: So what's interesting is that of most entrepreneurs, you know,
Speaker 1: businesses are started out of personal need. So a partner
Speaker 1: and I, you know, I'm black, she's Jack. The these
Speaker 1: my kids, you know, they're obviously mixed. They look very black.
Speaker 1: So we're looking for books to affirm their identities and
Speaker 1: affirm who they are. And so we remember going to
Speaker 1: our local library, which had like tens of thousands of books,
Speaker 1: and we were like, you know, can you bring us
Speaker 1: any books that have black children? And she was like, oh,
Speaker 1: like I can tell the little be same black. Kind
Speaker 1: of like alarmed her a little bit, and she had
Speaker 1: no way of looking up in the computer. There wasn't
Speaker 1: like a query for it. And she was gone for
Speaker 1: several hours and then came back with this post and
Speaker 1: note with three books. One of the books I remember
Speaker 1: was was a black girl praying together her hair wasn't nappy,
Speaker 1: and the other two were equally disempowering, I know. And
Speaker 1: so and so we're like, you know, maybe maybe this
Speaker 1: is just this library, right, So we start doing more
Speaker 1: research and going to the libraries, and then we find
Speaker 1: out that this is like a national systemic problem. There's
Speaker 1: a major gap in representation of kids of color, and
Speaker 1: particularly black kids. And then even more so, of the
Speaker 1: book that you can find, most of them are not
Speaker 1: written by black folks, a little have inaccurate messaging, problematic narratives,
Speaker 1: and those narratives will be appropriated, which essentially drives income
Speaker 1: out of the black community. So um as we start
Speaker 1: talking to other parents in our circles who are also
Speaker 1: parents of color, were like, you know, how are you doing.
Speaker 1: Are you finding books? And they're like, no, we can't
Speaker 1: find anything, And so we just spend all this time
Speaker 1: doing research, and we're like, you know, let's just make
Speaker 1: this a project and start spreading these resources to parents
Speaker 1: and families and educators about how to get access to
Speaker 1: these books. But then also start understanding, you know, how
Speaker 1: do we have these critical conversations about race at a
Speaker 1: really young age so we can start to push back
Speaker 1: against some of this systemic racism. What I'm so impressed
Speaker 1: by it is that it's like, you guys are vetting
Speaker 1: these books. Not only do they have characters that are
Speaker 1: black or mixed, or have different hair, different eyes, different backgrounds,
Speaker 1: all of these things, but they've been authored by black authors,
Speaker 1: like do you're you're doing the vetting for us, which
Speaker 1: is I really appreciate it because I'm trying to help
Speaker 1: my kid immediately. Sure, sure, yeah. So we teach critical
Speaker 1: race media literacy. Um, it's also referred to as critical
Speaker 1: media literacy. And what that does is that just looks
Speaker 1: at all the different ways when of how to consume
Speaker 1: media critically, whether it's books, whether it's school curriculum, and
Speaker 1: to be honest, it's it's really an orientation of your
Speaker 1: whole life, right, and at the root of it is
Speaker 1: critical consciousness. So it's being able to question these systems
Speaker 1: of inequity, not just in the content but behind the
Speaker 1: power structures that created the book itself. Who profit off
Speaker 1: it's it, who owns it? What are the interests? You know,
Speaker 1: what characters are being centered? You know, um, where does
Speaker 1: the money go? So all of these different things kind
Speaker 1: of going too. Yeah, and and there's because there's there is,
Speaker 1: there's all. There's all these books out, but a lot
Speaker 1: of folks are just kind of throwing out narratives too,
Speaker 1: I think capitalize financially on these racial conversations, which is
Speaker 1: terrible because what it does is reproduces like all these
Speaker 1: racial and equies and understandings of race. So by going
Speaker 1: through the messaging, looking at the positions of the characters,
Speaker 1: who centered, who's invisible? UM? Who has the power to
Speaker 1: tell someone else's story? Right? What is that? How does
Speaker 1: that shape the narrative? UM? All of these kind of
Speaker 1: going into the selection of literature and media and content
Speaker 1: that that we put up on our Instagram and share
Speaker 1: with educators and families alike. I love that we just
Speaker 1: had on Dr Beverly Daniel Tatum. She's amazing. But we
Speaker 1: talked a lot about how to be critically conscious and
Speaker 1: how to touch that to your kids. And so what's
Speaker 1: amazing about your Instagram is like you're looking at these
Speaker 1: books through like she's talking about a critical lens to
Speaker 1: make sure of all of these things. And I feel
Speaker 1: like if you can help teach yourself to have a
Speaker 1: critical consciousness and then your children model after you to
Speaker 1: also think critically, like you said, it applies to so
Speaker 1: many things. Um okay, And so now we're seeing, thanks
Speaker 1: to the conscious kid and the work you guys are
Speaker 1: doing that a lot of these classic books they're just
Speaker 1: not great. They're actually extremely problematic, and one in particular
Speaker 1: that I came across in your work, which I had
Speaker 1: absolutely no idea about, is Dr SEUs, you and your
Speaker 1: wife Katie. You guys wrote a groundbreaking research article on
Speaker 1: it titled the cat is out of the Bag Orientalism,
Speaker 1: anti blackness, and white supremacy in Dr Seus's children's books.
Speaker 1: Can you share a little bit about your research cat
Speaker 1: is all the way out of the bag on that one? Um? Yeah,
Speaker 1: So the Doctor SEUs project came specifically out of this
Speaker 1: narrative when we're talking about starting the Conscious Kid, where
Speaker 1: we were looking at the books and our kids preschool
Speaker 1: and I will never forget my first year in my
Speaker 1: PhD program and they're giving me a tour of the
Speaker 1: school and there was like this Doctor SEUs statue and
Speaker 1: they're like listen the Doctor shows. And my friend next
Speaker 1: to me he goes, man, do you all know about
Speaker 1: all the anti Asian Japanese cartoons that came out? I
Speaker 1: had never heard of it, and I was like wait what?
Speaker 1: And so I go home. I talked to Katie and
Speaker 1: I'm like, yo, you know. Dr SEUs was super racist.
Speaker 1: So we start looking at the cartoons and they were
Speaker 1: just horrific, using the N word for black people, had
Speaker 1: him dressed him up like monkeys, had all kind of
Speaker 1: Japanese slurs. Then there was this narrative that was like, oh,
Speaker 1: maybe in his life he got better and changed. We're like, okay, well,
Speaker 1: let's let's just look at all these books. I'm kind
Speaker 1: of just curious personally because we all grew up reading it.
Speaker 1: It's like a staple in every school. We're like, let's
Speaker 1: see is it really changing, because I don't know if
Speaker 1: you can really just ship like that overnight. So we
Speaker 1: went through his entire children's book collection and we coded
Speaker 1: for and we used all the critical media codes as
Speaker 1: far as like dominance, power, positionality, who's president, who's being centered? Um,
Speaker 1: how are depictions of people of color? What is their
Speaker 1: position and relationship to the dominant characters or white characters
Speaker 1: in the books. And we're like, wow, of all the characters,
Speaker 1: all the black people all look like monkeys or have
Speaker 1: those caricature faces. And then so they argument was like, okay,
Speaker 1: it was a hording. Here, here's who was supposed to
Speaker 1: be like this apology. But then we're looking at the
Speaker 1: book and it's got this like bright yellow face with
Speaker 1: these chopsticks, and we're like, there's still a lot of
Speaker 1: problematic stereotypes. And then the other one is this is
Speaker 1: another one of those apologies, is this sneeches where it's like, basically,
Speaker 1: this a quick synopsis. There's a group people that have
Speaker 1: stars in their belly in the story, and then there's
Speaker 1: another group without stars in their belly. And the people
Speaker 1: without stars in their belly, you know, they're excluded, they
Speaker 1: feel sad, um and you kind of get picked on
Speaker 1: a little bit. Um. But basically the story ends when
Speaker 1: the group that doesn't have stars in their belly they
Speaker 1: get stars in their belly and they become happy or
Speaker 1: like that. That's all kind of enforces a conformity narrative, right,
Speaker 1: Why why can't those characters just be happy without stars,
Speaker 1: happy who they are? Right? You started talking about savior
Speaker 1: narratives within books and assimilating into these dominant narratives um,
Speaker 1: and so we're like, that's kind of problematic as well.
Speaker 1: I don't really know if that's an apology. And so
Speaker 1: all these patterns just crossed all the literature. But when
Speaker 1: we dropped all the findings, it was like a bomb
Speaker 1: went off almost And we're not the first person to
Speaker 1: find these things either, like we cited other researchers. Dr
Speaker 1: Philip Nell, for example, did a lot of work on this.
Speaker 1: There wasn't anything that was new, but maybe the ways
Speaker 1: in which that we packed up the whole thing. It
Speaker 1: was kind of an eye opening for everyone because most
Speaker 1: of the studies weren't specifically Navy. You know, there's anti blackness, orientalism,
Speaker 1: all of these things, and and then depiction of women
Speaker 1: in the book, right, and their books are subservient. I
Speaker 1: got the whole Uh Sus cannon for my son's shower
Speaker 1: and I have not opened them. What's your The feedback
Speaker 1: on conscious kid to all of these findings are youth
Speaker 1: saying that we shouldn't read Dr SEUs anymore? Because I
Speaker 1: am of the opinion that we should not. This is
Speaker 1: a common debate, right, this idea should we swap it out? Like?
Speaker 1: Can we still use these books to teach about these things?
Speaker 1: The problem with that is that if we're going to
Speaker 1: teach about racism or marginality, we should probably use a
Speaker 1: lot better tools and learning from a racist. If I should,
Speaker 1: I do I want to learn about anti semitism from
Speaker 1: an anti semi I don't think so. So although we
Speaker 1: can use these books to teach. There are much better
Speaker 1: books written by people from those communities that unpack those
Speaker 1: issues a lot better with children. The other problem with
Speaker 1: still using those books is that you can still reify
Speaker 1: stereotypes and unconscious bias, not knowing that you're doing that
Speaker 1: as you're using it as a tool, still seeing all
Speaker 1: those problematic depictions and narratives of people of color and
Speaker 1: women when there are zero women of color in any
Speaker 1: of the books. By the way, all of those things
Speaker 1: are still sending messages about what matters, who matters um
Speaker 1: And if you're a young child, your brain is so
Speaker 1: impressionable that the things that you're exposing children too, you
Speaker 1: need to be extremely mindful of. So if you want
Speaker 1: to teach about equity, you want to teach about patriarchy.
Speaker 1: If you want to teach about racism, go from people
Speaker 1: in those communities that experience it themselves and have expertise
Speaker 1: on it. You've also vetted nursery rhymes that are inherently racist,
Speaker 1: or like just the worst and like I'm retiring head shoulders,
Speaker 1: NAIs and toes goodbye, like retired, that song is not
Speaker 1: to be sung anymore. When you were a kid, do
Speaker 1: you remember they're not being books for you. And do
Speaker 1: you remember the first time you read something where you
Speaker 1: found yourself reflected in the pages? I very vividly remember this.
Speaker 1: So my my folks were always trying to be pretty
Speaker 1: intentional about having like black books in our house. But
Speaker 1: I knew that once I left that house and went
Speaker 1: to school, I was not going to be seeing any
Speaker 1: black people. And I can remember the first time I
Speaker 1: saw a black person. I'm not gonna say I saw myself,
Speaker 1: but it was we were reading Huck Finn in my
Speaker 1: second grade class, and I think it says the N
Speaker 1: word like several hundred times, and I was the only
Speaker 1: black kid in his class, and it was super awkward
Speaker 1: because the teacher was like, you know, you're not supposed
Speaker 1: to say it, but just saying it and it was
Speaker 1: so hard, and I was like, I was because it's
Speaker 1: written in the book and we don't want to erase
Speaker 1: this history. And I was not engaged by the story.
Speaker 1: I wasn't really even sure how to react to that.
Speaker 1: I'm like, this kid hasn't talked to me all year.
Speaker 1: Now he wants to say the INN word out loud
Speaker 1: during the book when he's reading it, And what a memory,
Speaker 1: what a visual like all of these kind of American
Speaker 1: cannon books. Um, that's so much embedded, like white supremacy,
Speaker 1: and it's so many other problematic things. The first time
Speaker 1: I'm trying to remember where I actually saw a black
Speaker 1: person that I related to in a book, probably wasn't
Speaker 1: until I got to college, um, and I started reading. Um,
Speaker 1: Tony Morrison might even the bluestide I can't remember, but
Speaker 1: it was definitely Tony Morrison where I was able to
Speaker 1: see myself. Started reading the biography of Malcolm IX saught myself.
Speaker 1: But it wasn't until I got much older. I didn't
Speaker 1: see him in the curriculum. I'm not going to see
Speaker 1: it in any of the books that were even available.
Speaker 1: Because we grew up in the nineties, the color blind era,
Speaker 1: most people aren't even looking about it, and even if
Speaker 1: you said something, it was like, you know, dragging your
Speaker 1: nails across the chalkboard, like hash hash. We don't talk
Speaker 1: about that, you know. I think my parents thought they
Speaker 1: were doing such a better job than their parents, who
Speaker 1: were probably vocally horrible, and then they were just let's
Speaker 1: say nothing and be nice to everybody, is what we're
Speaker 1: going to teach and everyone's equal. And now I know
Speaker 1: that is also obviously not working. Like people know, we've
Speaker 1: got a lot of work to do. Um. Can you
Speaker 1: share any of the books that you read with your
Speaker 1: children to ensure that they saw themselves represented in the narrative? Absolutely.
Speaker 1: I can remember like a really standout book that made
Speaker 1: an impact for them when they were younger, and as
Speaker 1: a book written by Derek Barnes, who's a black author.
Speaker 1: And what made his books unique is that he started
Speaker 1: focusing on black boys in particular, because black boy narratives
Speaker 1: were just gone absolutely and oftentime, falling their stereotypes of
Speaker 1: either being some kind of pain narrative you know, they're
Speaker 1: trying to get out the hood or like yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: all those kind of deficit deficient narratives. And so he
Speaker 1: started writing these empowering books. Um. And so one of
Speaker 1: his books was called Crown, you know, um, and it's
Speaker 1: it's it's about the power of black barbershops, and it's
Speaker 1: about this kid that goes and gets his first kind
Speaker 1: of fresh haircut, right, wants to look fresh. But we remember,
Speaker 1: like our kids looking at those books and they're like, oh,
Speaker 1: that's that's my kind of hair. I have hair like that,
Speaker 1: and I'll look how that's that? What daddy did? We
Speaker 1: went to get a doughnut and we had all these
Speaker 1: similar kind of kind of things. Another one is called
Speaker 1: yeah called Little Leaders Both Women in Black History, which
Speaker 1: is great because it's a board book. It has all
Speaker 1: these different profiles of a lot of black women. You've
Speaker 1: probably never heard of, these great empowering descriptions written by
Speaker 1: this black woman. Um. So that is a great one,
Speaker 1: especially to entree for young children when talking about issues
Speaker 1: of So great for us because I feel like I
Speaker 1: can't do a good job teaching a kid how to
Speaker 1: be an anti racist if I'm not also learning myself.
Speaker 1: I can't. You know, there's so many things I don't know, um,
Speaker 1: and I'm so behind when it comes to yeah, like
Speaker 1: powerful black women in history who invented stuff and made
Speaker 1: stuff and black men like wasn't taught in school, Like
Speaker 1: I have a lot to do and then to get
Speaker 1: to show that to my kids. So that's a great idea. Yes, yes, um,
Speaker 1: we will be learning just as much, I swear as
Speaker 1: the kids. We were like, oh did you know that?
Speaker 1: I didn't know that? I mean I knew that, did
Speaker 1: I knew that what's cool about books is that everybody
Speaker 1: learns like a family learning tool, right, And although it
Speaker 1: is simplified at a nice young age, I swear like,
Speaker 1: if you are learning about these concepts, the simplicity and
Speaker 1: the accessibility of the language is actually really helpful for parents.
Speaker 1: So um, we always say like learning and using books
Speaker 1: is actually a group experience. Everybody ends up learning from it. Um.
Speaker 1: I remember there's a children's book about George Crumb, for example,
Speaker 1: this black guy that have been at the potato chip?
Speaker 1: I had no idea, um, and you can amazing though
Speaker 1: potato chip is my favorite food, right, so the fact
Speaker 1: that I've never googled who invented the potato chip is ridiculous.
Speaker 1: The other thing I want to say about the conscious
Speaker 1: kid and why it's so helpful is that when you
Speaker 1: go to all the books you guys have to list.
Speaker 1: What's great is you've listed what age. I think you're
Speaker 1: making it so easy for parents to not have to
Speaker 1: look up if it's age appropriate, to not to be
Speaker 1: able to trust that the author and the topics and
Speaker 1: the themes in each book is something that we should
Speaker 1: be proud to be sharing with our families and our children,
Speaker 1: is like all of the work. So first, so parents,
Speaker 1: just get the books, read them to your kids, but
Speaker 1: know that that's just a starting point. There's a lot
Speaker 1: of action that has to take place after the books.
Speaker 1: Books are such a great way to learn collectively, as
Speaker 1: you said, but are there any other entry points to
Speaker 1: having these critical conversations about race with our kids. It
Speaker 1: could be a children's book and be that starting point.
Speaker 1: It could be a simple something that they see in
Speaker 1: their everyday experiences that you related to UM, and then
Speaker 1: you build on it later. I don't expect going to
Speaker 1: be critical race theorists overnight at age three, right, But
Speaker 1: kind of one particular example is UM. A lot of
Speaker 1: parents are talking about, like how do I talk to
Speaker 1: my kids about these protests and everything going on. So
Speaker 1: I was talking to my five year old son, UM.
Speaker 1: He was asking questions about what was going on, and so,
Speaker 1: you know, I just basically had this conversation. I said,
Speaker 1: you know what, you know, a long time ago, you know,
Speaker 1: there were some people that put a lot of unfair
Speaker 1: policies and laws in place that are still around and
Speaker 1: not treating black people and people of color fairly in
Speaker 1: this country. And people are outside protesting because they want
Speaker 1: to see a change, um. And so just kind of
Speaker 1: breaking it down really simple like that. He immediately got it,
Speaker 1: he understood it. There's this misnomer that if you talk
Speaker 1: to race about a child like to you know, like
Speaker 1: you're going to traumatize them or or scare them. But kids,
Speaker 1: kids are actually very intelligent. They understand what's going on.
Speaker 1: And the funny thing is that kids are very much
Speaker 1: similar to adults, right, They were very similar as far
Speaker 1: as the way that we learned things using stories, using narratives, UM,
Speaker 1: experiences in their everyday life that you can relate to. UM.
Speaker 1: These are all things that are useful when we're talking
Speaker 1: about kind of racing our experiences. The thing that I
Speaker 1: think is, so I'm trying to think of not as
Speaker 1: a scary thing but like an empowering thing that rather
Speaker 1: than my kid getting it elsewhere, well, it's already happening.
Speaker 1: I mean, the racism is there, like it's there, so
Speaker 1: I have to get in there, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: I have to get in there, you know, in the
Speaker 1: developmentally appropriate way. But it's very helpful to me to
Speaker 1: hear how parents are having these conversations so that I
Speaker 1: can practice and figure out how I'm going to not
Speaker 1: be color silent, right, just getting that conversation where we
Speaker 1: can at least talk about issues of race, and then
Speaker 1: using that as a starting point. Everybody obviously learns differently.
Speaker 1: Some learn about it quicker, some become more passionate than others.
Speaker 1: But once you have that starting point, you can build
Speaker 1: on that for life and by the time there our age,
Speaker 1: they'll be sweeping us under the rug. Oh your lips
Speaker 1: to God's ears, like please, I hope that is the case.
Speaker 1: Since you've started the Instagram account, I feel like there's
Speaker 1: even more going on. Can you explain how that transition
Speaker 1: has sort of happened and do you feel like your
Speaker 1: mission has even changed? Absolutely? So we start off, you know,
Speaker 1: with the children's book focus, but we do have a
Speaker 1: lot of experience. People are fifteen years experience in this work,
Speaker 1: and so we know that a lot of these issues
Speaker 1: are embedded structurally within the laws and the policies and norms.
Speaker 1: So we've expanded just from doing children's books to doing research, policy, advocacy,
Speaker 1: rent relate basically, you know, a critical anti racist space
Speaker 1: online all the different ways that it can look. Children's
Speaker 1: books are just a starting point, right when we talk
Speaker 1: about how do we raise anti racist children, how do
Speaker 1: we raise children with critical consciousness? When you're doing this
Speaker 1: inequity where you have to come out of from multiple
Speaker 1: different angles, right and at the very very least, it's
Speaker 1: like lifestyle shift. Right. The conversations you're having with your
Speaker 1: child matter, but it's also about very much about what
Speaker 1: you're doing. Who are you surrounding yourself with. Do you
Speaker 1: live in a segregated neighborhood, you go to a segregated school.
Speaker 1: What kind of people are your children being exposed to
Speaker 1: on a daily basis, What kind of media messages are
Speaker 1: they coming through their household? All these different things right
Speaker 1: shape the ways in which we understand and interact with
Speaker 1: the world. UM. And so as the Conscious kid Is
Speaker 1: mission has grown, it's just become more holistic and addressing
Speaker 1: advocating for policy change through the National Education Association where
Speaker 1: they decentered suits and are now supporting diverse books. Right.
Speaker 1: That's a structural shift, UM. But it's also in the
Speaker 1: training for like organizations and companies that are learning how
Speaker 1: to um not just donate money, but what's going on
Speaker 1: in our culture and our policies that may be inequitable
Speaker 1: that we just never looked at, right, so um growing
Speaker 1: into that piece supporting families and schools, and then of
Speaker 1: course making sure that we're supporting youth directly through social media.
Speaker 1: So it's really just grown to be more holistic and
Speaker 1: look at inequity from multi different points that we can
Speaker 1: try and push back and resist against. But I'm sure
Speaker 1: it's just going to continue to grow as the demand increases.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, you guys have so many followers, but
Speaker 1: I feel like your followers are very active on your Instagram,
Speaker 1: Like there's a lot of commenting and like back and
Speaker 1: forth conversations, and so I find like it's really become
Speaker 1: this awesome sense of community. And as much as social
Speaker 1: media can drive people insane, it also can really be
Speaker 1: this incredible right now, especially this source of where me
Speaker 1: as a white mom, I'm going to unlearn so much
Speaker 1: shit you brought up curriculum before. I want to circle back.
Speaker 1: So as I've been discovering and talking to my white
Speaker 1: friends family members about like Black Wall Street, I've never
Speaker 1: heard about any of this, And then you start to think, oh,
Speaker 1: what else didn't I learn in school? I really don't
Speaker 1: know a lot about slavery at all. I really don't um,
Speaker 1: And honestly, it wasn't until I worked on Scandal and
Speaker 1: one weekend we were all shooting in d C. And
Speaker 1: we all took a tour of the African American Museum
Speaker 1: and we were there for hours and hours and hours,
Speaker 1: and I, I have to say again embarrassingly, So that
Speaker 1: was my first like really deep dive into knowing a
Speaker 1: lot historically about slavery. Um. Since you work so closely
Speaker 1: with schools and things, what can we do about the
Speaker 1: curriculum and the school Like? Wow, what are we supposed
Speaker 1: to do to teach our kids the true history and
Speaker 1: the truth of why America is America? Yeah? I mean,
Speaker 1: curriculum is is such a deep issue because of how
Speaker 1: much it really does shape your child's understanding of the world,
Speaker 1: the ways in which they see themselves and other groups.
Speaker 1: So the work that we've been doing in ethnic studies
Speaker 1: basically looks at centering histories and stories of marginal communities
Speaker 1: and putting that in our textbooks and using those as
Speaker 1: kind of reference points. But it's also borrows from this
Speaker 1: notion of what's referred to as culturally relevant pedagogy, where
Speaker 1: it builds basically three things. Right. It's cultural competence, it's
Speaker 1: critical consciousness, and then it's also academic rigor. So we're
Speaker 1: using stories and narratives from people that we see in
Speaker 1: our everyday lives that we can relate to, that we
Speaker 1: can understand, right, but we're also talking about them critically, right,
Speaker 1: and we're going to also talk about it um and
Speaker 1: learn about the cultural shared aspects of that person, meaning like,
Speaker 1: how does this person relate to or push back against
Speaker 1: dominant norms? And those norms could be segregation, those norms
Speaker 1: could be, um, no black people at your office, right,
Speaker 1: It could be a number of things. But I think
Speaker 1: studies looks at these stories of people that we've never
Speaker 1: heard of that made significant contributions to American history. People
Speaker 1: of color, we're talking about women, we're talking about Jews,
Speaker 1: We're talking about all these marginal groups that are left
Speaker 1: out of the histories books that make up most of
Speaker 1: our classrooms, and reflecting those stories. So when we have
Speaker 1: empowering narrative with diverse folks, right, it's great for everybody
Speaker 1: because the folks that that are from those communities can
Speaker 1: see themselves in the text, but the folks that are
Speaker 1: outside of those communities now get ay, it could be
Speaker 1: their first entree even into that community, be and be
Speaker 1: they get an empowering narrative and more accurate narrative. What
Speaker 1: that looks like when we can get those stories from
Speaker 1: those communities. So this has got to happen. I know,
Speaker 1: I know, there's like a slight there's a slight movement
Speaker 1: that's gone on in California and Arizona, and I think
Speaker 1: in New York. It's popping up in a lot of
Speaker 1: different states. But the other benefit is that kids actually
Speaker 1: do really academically as well, because they're more engaged in
Speaker 1: the content because it relates to it. So and the
Speaker 1: cool thing about cultural realm and pedagogy. We can do
Speaker 1: it with math, we could do it with science, we
Speaker 1: can do with English. Here's an example. So there was
Speaker 1: a science class in um in Oakland, and so before
Speaker 1: what they would do is they would test like the
Speaker 1: waters of their ponds outside, you know, just test for
Speaker 1: like lead levels. But instead the teachers are employing culturally
Speaker 1: reallyant pedagogy, and they tested the water in the schools
Speaker 1: and they found all kind of lead levels. They took
Speaker 1: those lead levels back to the comp back to their
Speaker 1: local legislator and was able to advocate for reform and
Speaker 1: get new pipe things. Um. And then students were able
Speaker 1: to also take those skills and started applying it to
Speaker 1: their neighborhoods. Right there was some of these high income schools.
Speaker 1: They would, you know, make fun of these kids for
Speaker 1: being poor, being low income and saying they're dirty, they're
Speaker 1: nasty with these kids did as they took the skills
Speaker 1: about how to document things, about starting with the problem
Speaker 1: first and researching backwards, and began filming how often the
Speaker 1: garbage man was coming, and it was coming like three
Speaker 1: times less than any other neighborhood. Took that back to
Speaker 1: their legislator was able to advocate. So when students were
Speaker 1: able to basically see how the content in school actually
Speaker 1: can be used in their real life, people become more
Speaker 1: engaged because they understand how it actually works. Right, Like
Speaker 1: I love George Washington that cherry tree, but I don't
Speaker 1: know how that's gonna help me police outside, you know
Speaker 1: what I'm saying, right, Or like, for example, I feel
Speaker 1: like I learned so much about World War Two in school.
Speaker 1: I've been talking about this and I'm like, well, of
Speaker 1: course I did. It's like yeay America. We were part
Speaker 1: of the Allies and we fought the evil Nazis who
Speaker 1: were like the bad guys, and all of our movies
Speaker 1: for like the Last like Forever and Yeah, and like
Speaker 1: we came in and saved the day. It's like such
Speaker 1: an easy sort of story to digest because like we
Speaker 1: were the white heroes and like we came in and
Speaker 1: made the world right again. But if I were to
Speaker 1: look back on what I was taught about slavery or
Speaker 1: the civil rights movement, or the Vietnam War, or like
Speaker 1: anything where we're on the wrong side, it was completely
Speaker 1: not detailed, not specific, It was quick, it was like
Speaker 1: a little paragraph. It just wasn't great, And I don't
Speaker 1: want that for my child, right, And it's also an
Speaker 1: unbalanced education. School shouldn't be just about helping people get jobs.
Speaker 1: It should be about making you a better person in life, right,
Speaker 1: understanding the world better and from there you can figure
Speaker 1: out how you want to contribute economically or what that
Speaker 1: looks like from those needs. But having those narratives of
Speaker 1: these different stories, right, this is what creates empathy with
Speaker 1: folks so they can relate and understand. And we also
Speaker 1: know that when kids take these like classes with diversity
Speaker 1: and equity. It changes their future decision making processes. That's
Speaker 1: like one of the biggest findings that it changes the
Speaker 1: way you make choices about everything. So when you're beginning
Speaker 1: to question things and like, maybe this isn't a good
Speaker 1: idea for me, maybe I am perpetuating something harmful. How
Speaker 1: can I reframing and look at this from a different way.
Speaker 1: That's when we are our list, my agency, and we're
Speaker 1: able to kind of disrupt these systems, because then it
Speaker 1: starts to become like I said, that lifestyle, right, you
Speaker 1: can't really turn it, you can't go back, you can't
Speaker 1: and you shouldn't. Um. I just don't think until we're
Speaker 1: able to really look at our curriculum. Honestly, I can
Speaker 1: remember I've been to Berlin a bunch of times, and
Speaker 1: when I go to the s S Headquarters museum, it's
Speaker 1: filled with German first graders looking at absolutely horrible images
Speaker 1: of what their country did two people and did to
Speaker 1: Jewish people. And I'm like, yeah, but like that's what
Speaker 1: we need to be doing, like yes to slavery, and
Speaker 1: we need to be looking at everything and vibrantly. So, UM,
Speaker 1: do you think that will ever happen in our public schools.
Speaker 1: That's a good question. Um, So this is what I
Speaker 1: think will happen based off of what has happened before.
Speaker 1: We have these moments, these really strong moment us of reform.
Speaker 1: We might have we were able to disrupt or have
Speaker 1: the shifts. But like with every great progression, there's a digression.
Speaker 1: So we had Obama and then we got the massive
Speaker 1: white lash, right, So with every great social justice reformed,
Speaker 1: there's a massive lashback. Like ethnic studies came out in
Speaker 1: the nineteen sixties, it's like fifty years ago. But then
Speaker 1: the eighties happened in Ronald Reagan and color blindness. That
Speaker 1: pretty much just sniped out the whole ethnic studies movement
Speaker 1: because people thought it was just like a bunch of
Speaker 1: hand holding and it wasn't really relevant because we don't
Speaker 1: talk about race, so why do we need to have
Speaker 1: a whole class about it. Now we're starting to come
Speaker 1: back around to it. So if we can keep this
Speaker 1: momentum going, there will be changed depending on the location
Speaker 1: you are in, because there are just some states that
Speaker 1: are gonna be a little bit more pro ethnic studies,
Speaker 1: and there are some states that want to hold lot
Speaker 1: of those problematic um, kind of classic heroes that have
Speaker 1: you know, done a lot of horrific things. So we
Speaker 1: have a lot to work to do. And I can't
Speaker 1: thank you enough Ramon for coming on the podcast. In closing,
Speaker 1: I just want to bring attention to the incredible COVID
Speaker 1: relief that the Conscious Kid is doing. I think it's
Speaker 1: a quarter of a million dollars. What have you donated
Speaker 1: thus far to Black families? There's been over yeah, over
Speaker 1: a quarter of a million dollars um. And then we've
Speaker 1: also did relief for general families as well prior to COVID,
Speaker 1: and I think that was well over a quarter million
Speaker 1: as well. I want to stay close to half a
Speaker 1: million to be honest. Um. COVID really looks at how
Speaker 1: race intersects with class to create additional layers of marginalization.
Speaker 1: When we're talking about, for example, black mothers in particular,
Speaker 1: you've got gender, you've got class, and you've got race
Speaker 1: all intersecting, and so we know that that creates heightened
Speaker 1: need for resources. And so that's why in particularly we
Speaker 1: chose to focus on black families who have been marginalized
Speaker 1: through COVID nineteen. That's amazing your work is absolutely incredible.
Speaker 1: I can't thank you enough for The Conscious Kid. For
Speaker 1: everybody listening who's a parent out there is such a resource.
Speaker 1: And we're all on our phones, we are all on Instagram.
Speaker 1: People don't pretend like you're not. And what's great is
Speaker 1: it's important. It's amazing and it's also positive and like
Speaker 1: wonderful because you give us a lot of action items.
Speaker 1: So instead of just sitting there feeling like I don't
Speaker 1: know what to do. I don't know what to do,
Speaker 1: We'll go to The Conscious Kid and start with those
Speaker 1: books and reading. Um, thank you so much for coming
Speaker 1: on Katie's Crib Ramon. You are awesome. Thank you Katie.
Speaker 1: We appreciate it and keep doing the work you're doing
Speaker 1: because you said a great example and you are modeling
Speaker 1: for your young childs about you know, allies that are
Speaker 1: trying to do work. So I appreciate you and thank
Speaker 1: you for having us. Uh yeah, big pleasure. Thank you
Speaker 1: guys so much for listening to Katie's Crib. Please rate, review,
Speaker 1: subscribe to the podcast, tell your friends, tell your family. Oh,
Speaker 1: if you have a topic or a guest that you
Speaker 1: would like to have on the podcast, send me an
Speaker 1: email at Katie's Crib at Shonda land dot com. Katie's
Speaker 1: Grim is a production of Shonda Land Audio in partnership
Speaker 1: with I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from Shondaland Audio,
Speaker 1: visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows. You can never know
Speaker 1: until you try. Meline