1 00:00:02,040 --> 00:00:04,880 Speaker 1: Welcome to Katie's Crib, a production of Shonda land Audio 2 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 1: in partnership with I Heart Radio. Hi everybody, and welcome 3 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 1: back to Katie's Crib. Um. As you guys know, we 4 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:22,200 Speaker 1: are working really hard this season on the topic of 5 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:26,439 Speaker 1: raising anti racist kids. So I am really excited to 6 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:29,760 Speaker 1: have a today's guest on the podcast. His name is 7 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:32,839 Speaker 1: Ramons Stevens and he is the executive director of The 8 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 1: Conscious Kid. The Conscious Kid is my favorite one of 9 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:40,760 Speaker 1: my very very favorite Instagram follows. Follow if you can. 10 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:44,920 Speaker 1: It's a nonprofit that promotes access to children's books that 11 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:48,919 Speaker 1: center on underrepresented groups and authors. Ramone and I talk 12 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 1: a lot about having critical conversations about race with your 13 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: kids at a very young age, and how reading books 14 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:58,640 Speaker 1: can be such a great jumping off point. It's just 15 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:02,280 Speaker 1: so helpful to like take a look at your own 16 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:05,720 Speaker 1: children's libraries, you guys, like, what type of books are 17 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:08,759 Speaker 1: you reading to your kids? Is everyone represented in those books? 18 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 1: Are there some authors that are questionable? Ramon and I 19 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:16,960 Speaker 1: actually talk a lot about a very very very famous 20 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:21,119 Speaker 1: children's book author who you might want to reconsider being 21 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:24,080 Speaker 1: part of your children's library. So, oh, a little bit 22 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 1: about Ramon because he's brilliant. He's a PhD student at 23 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:32,200 Speaker 1: the University of California. His research focuses on recruitment, retention, resilience, 24 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:36,679 Speaker 1: and student voices for marginalized populations in the educational spaces. 25 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:40,400 Speaker 1: Whoa oh, and he's also an amazing father. So here 26 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 1: we go, guys. Here is my conversation with the one 27 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:49,640 Speaker 1: and only Ramon Stevens from The Conscious Kid. Ramon, you're impressive, 28 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 1: you're smart, We're very like and you're in the select 29 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 1: few of men we have had on Katie's grew no 30 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 1: much of appreciate it, much appreciative. I'm still a student learning, 31 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:05,800 Speaker 1: so I appreciate that. I appreciate you having me here. 32 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:08,919 Speaker 1: It's it's super humbling and I'm so honored. Oh my gosh, 33 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:15,240 Speaker 1: I I I am part of this group. There's millions 34 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:19,120 Speaker 1: of us of white moms who are waking up way 35 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:24,679 Speaker 1: too late to my white privilege, um and just freaking 36 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:31,960 Speaker 1: out and seeing how already systemic racism is prevalent in 37 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 1: my household and in my parenting of my child, and 38 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:40,800 Speaker 1: just learning these things and your Instagram account, you guys, 39 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 1: the Conscious Kid has really been such a tool to me. 40 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 1: Tell me why how you started this Instagram account? Yeah. 41 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:54,960 Speaker 1: So what's interesting is that of most entrepreneurs, you know, 42 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:57,799 Speaker 1: businesses are started out of personal need. So a partner 43 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 1: and I, you know, I'm black, she's Jack. The these 44 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:04,520 Speaker 1: my kids, you know, they're obviously mixed. They look very black. 45 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 1: So we're looking for books to affirm their identities and 46 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:10,560 Speaker 1: affirm who they are. And so we remember going to 47 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 1: our local library, which had like tens of thousands of books, 48 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:15,640 Speaker 1: and we were like, you know, can you bring us 49 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 1: any books that have black children? And she was like, oh, 50 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:20,400 Speaker 1: like I can tell the little be same black. Kind 51 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:23,920 Speaker 1: of like alarmed her a little bit, and she had 52 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 1: no way of looking up in the computer. There wasn't 53 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 1: like a query for it. And she was gone for 54 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 1: several hours and then came back with this post and 55 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:32,400 Speaker 1: note with three books. One of the books I remember 56 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 1: was was a black girl praying together her hair wasn't nappy, 57 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 1: and the other two were equally disempowering, I know. And 58 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:42,440 Speaker 1: so and so we're like, you know, maybe maybe this 59 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:45,040 Speaker 1: is just this library, right, So we start doing more 60 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 1: research and going to the libraries, and then we find 61 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:50,760 Speaker 1: out that this is like a national systemic problem. There's 62 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 1: a major gap in representation of kids of color, and 63 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 1: particularly black kids. And then even more so, of the 64 00:03:56,800 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 1: book that you can find, most of them are not 65 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 1: written by black folks, a little have inaccurate messaging, problematic narratives, 66 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 1: and those narratives will be appropriated, which essentially drives income 67 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 1: out of the black community. So um as we start 68 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 1: talking to other parents in our circles who are also 69 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 1: parents of color, were like, you know, how are you doing. 70 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 1: Are you finding books? And they're like, no, we can't 71 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 1: find anything, And so we just spend all this time 72 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:19,040 Speaker 1: doing research, and we're like, you know, let's just make 73 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 1: this a project and start spreading these resources to parents 74 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:24,919 Speaker 1: and families and educators about how to get access to 75 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:27,240 Speaker 1: these books. But then also start understanding, you know, how 76 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:30,240 Speaker 1: do we have these critical conversations about race at a 77 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 1: really young age so we can start to push back 78 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:35,840 Speaker 1: against some of this systemic racism. What I'm so impressed 79 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 1: by it is that it's like, you guys are vetting 80 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 1: these books. Not only do they have characters that are 81 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 1: black or mixed, or have different hair, different eyes, different backgrounds, 82 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:52,720 Speaker 1: all of these things, but they've been authored by black authors, 83 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 1: like do you're you're doing the vetting for us, which 84 00:04:56,360 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 1: is I really appreciate it because I'm trying to help 85 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 1: my kid immediately. Sure, sure, yeah. So we teach critical 86 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 1: race media literacy. Um, it's also referred to as critical 87 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 1: media literacy. And what that does is that just looks 88 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:10,800 Speaker 1: at all the different ways when of how to consume 89 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:13,840 Speaker 1: media critically, whether it's books, whether it's school curriculum, and 90 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:15,920 Speaker 1: to be honest, it's it's really an orientation of your 91 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:17,479 Speaker 1: whole life, right, and at the root of it is 92 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 1: critical consciousness. So it's being able to question these systems 93 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 1: of inequity, not just in the content but behind the 94 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:25,720 Speaker 1: power structures that created the book itself. Who profit off 95 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 1: it's it, who owns it? What are the interests? You know, 96 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 1: what characters are being centered? You know, um, where does 97 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 1: the money go? So all of these different things kind 98 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:36,240 Speaker 1: of going too. Yeah, and and there's because there's there is, 99 00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 1: there's all. There's all these books out, but a lot 100 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:39,920 Speaker 1: of folks are just kind of throwing out narratives too, 101 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 1: I think capitalize financially on these racial conversations, which is 102 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 1: terrible because what it does is reproduces like all these 103 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:50,279 Speaker 1: racial and equies and understandings of race. So by going 104 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 1: through the messaging, looking at the positions of the characters, 105 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 1: who centered, who's invisible? UM? Who has the power to 106 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 1: tell someone else's story? Right? What is that? How does 107 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:00,599 Speaker 1: that shape the narrative? UM? All of these kind of 108 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 1: going into the selection of literature and media and content 109 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:05,480 Speaker 1: that that we put up on our Instagram and share 110 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:10,240 Speaker 1: with educators and families alike. I love that we just 111 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 1: had on Dr Beverly Daniel Tatum. She's amazing. But we 112 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 1: talked a lot about how to be critically conscious and 113 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:21,600 Speaker 1: how to touch that to your kids. And so what's 114 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:24,800 Speaker 1: amazing about your Instagram is like you're looking at these 115 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:27,919 Speaker 1: books through like she's talking about a critical lens to 116 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 1: make sure of all of these things. And I feel 117 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:34,919 Speaker 1: like if you can help teach yourself to have a 118 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:38,560 Speaker 1: critical consciousness and then your children model after you to 119 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 1: also think critically, like you said, it applies to so 120 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:46,679 Speaker 1: many things. Um okay, And so now we're seeing, thanks 121 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:48,800 Speaker 1: to the conscious kid and the work you guys are 122 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:52,359 Speaker 1: doing that a lot of these classic books they're just 123 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 1: not great. They're actually extremely problematic, and one in particular 124 00:06:57,480 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 1: that I came across in your work, which I had 125 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:04,720 Speaker 1: absolutely no idea about, is Dr SEUs, you and your 126 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 1: wife Katie. You guys wrote a groundbreaking research article on 127 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:11,880 Speaker 1: it titled the cat is out of the Bag Orientalism, 128 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 1: anti blackness, and white supremacy in Dr Seus's children's books. 129 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:19,480 Speaker 1: Can you share a little bit about your research cat 130 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 1: is all the way out of the bag on that one? Um? Yeah, 131 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 1: So the Doctor SEUs project came specifically out of this 132 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:29,200 Speaker 1: narrative when we're talking about starting the Conscious Kid, where 133 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 1: we were looking at the books and our kids preschool 134 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:33,680 Speaker 1: and I will never forget my first year in my 135 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 1: PhD program and they're giving me a tour of the 136 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 1: school and there was like this Doctor SEUs statue and 137 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 1: they're like listen the Doctor shows. And my friend next 138 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 1: to me he goes, man, do you all know about 139 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 1: all the anti Asian Japanese cartoons that came out? I 140 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 1: had never heard of it, and I was like wait what? 141 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 1: And so I go home. I talked to Katie and 142 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:56,000 Speaker 1: I'm like, yo, you know. Dr SEUs was super racist. 143 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:58,120 Speaker 1: So we start looking at the cartoons and they were 144 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 1: just horrific, using the N word for black people, had 145 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 1: him dressed him up like monkeys, had all kind of 146 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 1: Japanese slurs. Then there was this narrative that was like, oh, 147 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 1: maybe in his life he got better and changed. We're like, okay, well, 148 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 1: let's let's just look at all these books. I'm kind 149 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 1: of just curious personally because we all grew up reading it. 150 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:16,720 Speaker 1: It's like a staple in every school. We're like, let's 151 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:19,520 Speaker 1: see is it really changing, because I don't know if 152 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 1: you can really just ship like that overnight. So we 153 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 1: went through his entire children's book collection and we coded 154 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 1: for and we used all the critical media codes as 155 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:32,079 Speaker 1: far as like dominance, power, positionality, who's president, who's being centered? Um, 156 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 1: how are depictions of people of color? What is their 157 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 1: position and relationship to the dominant characters or white characters 158 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:40,840 Speaker 1: in the books. And we're like, wow, of all the characters, 159 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 1: all the black people all look like monkeys or have 160 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 1: those caricature faces. And then so they argument was like, okay, 161 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:49,599 Speaker 1: it was a hording. Here, here's who was supposed to 162 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:51,760 Speaker 1: be like this apology. But then we're looking at the 163 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:53,840 Speaker 1: book and it's got this like bright yellow face with 164 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 1: these chopsticks, and we're like, there's still a lot of 165 00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 1: problematic stereotypes. And then the other one is this is 166 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 1: another one of those apologies, is this sneeches where it's like, basically, 167 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 1: this a quick synopsis. There's a group people that have 168 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 1: stars in their belly in the story, and then there's 169 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:08,200 Speaker 1: another group without stars in their belly. And the people 170 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 1: without stars in their belly, you know, they're excluded, they 171 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:12,599 Speaker 1: feel sad, um and you kind of get picked on 172 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:15,320 Speaker 1: a little bit. Um. But basically the story ends when 173 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 1: the group that doesn't have stars in their belly they 174 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 1: get stars in their belly and they become happy or 175 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 1: like that. That's all kind of enforces a conformity narrative, right, 176 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 1: Why why can't those characters just be happy without stars, 177 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 1: happy who they are? Right? You started talking about savior 178 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:33,080 Speaker 1: narratives within books and assimilating into these dominant narratives um, 179 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:35,440 Speaker 1: and so we're like, that's kind of problematic as well. 180 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:38,079 Speaker 1: I don't really know if that's an apology. And so 181 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 1: all these patterns just crossed all the literature. But when 182 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:44,199 Speaker 1: we dropped all the findings, it was like a bomb 183 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:46,600 Speaker 1: went off almost And we're not the first person to 184 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 1: find these things either, like we cited other researchers. Dr 185 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 1: Philip Nell, for example, did a lot of work on this. 186 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 1: There wasn't anything that was new, but maybe the ways 187 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 1: in which that we packed up the whole thing. It 188 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 1: was kind of an eye opening for everyone because most 189 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:02,599 Speaker 1: of the studies weren't specifically Navy. You know, there's anti blackness, orientalism, 190 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:04,839 Speaker 1: all of these things, and and then depiction of women 191 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 1: in the book, right, and their books are subservient. I 192 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 1: got the whole Uh Sus cannon for my son's shower 193 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 1: and I have not opened them. What's your The feedback 194 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 1: on conscious kid to all of these findings are youth 195 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:25,200 Speaker 1: saying that we shouldn't read Dr SEUs anymore? Because I 196 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 1: am of the opinion that we should not. This is 197 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:29,640 Speaker 1: a common debate, right, this idea should we swap it out? Like? 198 00:10:29,679 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 1: Can we still use these books to teach about these things? 199 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:34,719 Speaker 1: The problem with that is that if we're going to 200 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:37,840 Speaker 1: teach about racism or marginality, we should probably use a 201 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:40,520 Speaker 1: lot better tools and learning from a racist. If I should, 202 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:42,440 Speaker 1: I do I want to learn about anti semitism from 203 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 1: an anti semi I don't think so. So although we 204 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:48,000 Speaker 1: can use these books to teach. There are much better 205 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:50,959 Speaker 1: books written by people from those communities that unpack those 206 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 1: issues a lot better with children. The other problem with 207 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 1: still using those books is that you can still reify 208 00:10:56,320 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 1: stereotypes and unconscious bias, not knowing that you're doing that 209 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 1: as you're using it as a tool, still seeing all 210 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:05,080 Speaker 1: those problematic depictions and narratives of people of color and 211 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 1: women when there are zero women of color in any 212 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:09,960 Speaker 1: of the books. By the way, all of those things 213 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 1: are still sending messages about what matters, who matters um 214 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 1: And if you're a young child, your brain is so 215 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 1: impressionable that the things that you're exposing children too, you 216 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:20,719 Speaker 1: need to be extremely mindful of. So if you want 217 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 1: to teach about equity, you want to teach about patriarchy. 218 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:25,720 Speaker 1: If you want to teach about racism, go from people 219 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:30,080 Speaker 1: in those communities that experience it themselves and have expertise 220 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 1: on it. You've also vetted nursery rhymes that are inherently racist, 221 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:41,040 Speaker 1: or like just the worst and like I'm retiring head shoulders, 222 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:45,560 Speaker 1: NAIs and toes goodbye, like retired, that song is not 223 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:49,960 Speaker 1: to be sung anymore. When you were a kid, do 224 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:53,800 Speaker 1: you remember they're not being books for you. And do 225 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 1: you remember the first time you read something where you 226 00:11:57,160 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 1: found yourself reflected in the pages? I very vividly remember this. 227 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:05,080 Speaker 1: So my my folks were always trying to be pretty 228 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 1: intentional about having like black books in our house. But 229 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 1: I knew that once I left that house and went 230 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:12,200 Speaker 1: to school, I was not going to be seeing any 231 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:15,480 Speaker 1: black people. And I can remember the first time I 232 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:18,359 Speaker 1: saw a black person. I'm not gonna say I saw myself, 233 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:20,840 Speaker 1: but it was we were reading Huck Finn in my 234 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 1: second grade class, and I think it says the N 235 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 1: word like several hundred times, and I was the only 236 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:28,280 Speaker 1: black kid in his class, and it was super awkward 237 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 1: because the teacher was like, you know, you're not supposed 238 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 1: to say it, but just saying it and it was 239 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:36,880 Speaker 1: so hard, and I was like, I was because it's 240 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 1: written in the book and we don't want to erase 241 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:42,440 Speaker 1: this history. And I was not engaged by the story. 242 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:44,880 Speaker 1: I wasn't really even sure how to react to that. 243 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 1: I'm like, this kid hasn't talked to me all year. 244 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:49,200 Speaker 1: Now he wants to say the INN word out loud 245 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 1: during the book when he's reading it, And what a memory, 246 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 1: what a visual like all of these kind of American 247 00:12:57,559 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 1: cannon books. Um, that's so much embedded, like white supremacy, 248 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:03,760 Speaker 1: and it's so many other problematic things. The first time 249 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 1: I'm trying to remember where I actually saw a black 250 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 1: person that I related to in a book, probably wasn't 251 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:12,240 Speaker 1: until I got to college, um, and I started reading. Um, 252 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:15,800 Speaker 1: Tony Morrison might even the bluestide I can't remember, but 253 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 1: it was definitely Tony Morrison where I was able to 254 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:21,240 Speaker 1: see myself. Started reading the biography of Malcolm IX saught myself. 255 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:23,480 Speaker 1: But it wasn't until I got much older. I didn't 256 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:25,320 Speaker 1: see him in the curriculum. I'm not going to see 257 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:27,439 Speaker 1: it in any of the books that were even available. 258 00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:31,640 Speaker 1: Because we grew up in the nineties, the color blind era, 259 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 1: most people aren't even looking about it, and even if 260 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:35,440 Speaker 1: you said something, it was like, you know, dragging your 261 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 1: nails across the chalkboard, like hash hash. We don't talk 262 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:41,480 Speaker 1: about that, you know. I think my parents thought they 263 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:45,160 Speaker 1: were doing such a better job than their parents, who 264 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 1: were probably vocally horrible, and then they were just let's 265 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:53,079 Speaker 1: say nothing and be nice to everybody, is what we're 266 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 1: going to teach and everyone's equal. And now I know 267 00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 1: that is also obviously not working. Like people know, we've 268 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 1: got a lot of work to do. Um. Can you 269 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:06,839 Speaker 1: share any of the books that you read with your 270 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:11,839 Speaker 1: children to ensure that they saw themselves represented in the narrative? Absolutely. 271 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:14,800 Speaker 1: I can remember like a really standout book that made 272 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 1: an impact for them when they were younger, and as 273 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 1: a book written by Derek Barnes, who's a black author. 274 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 1: And what made his books unique is that he started 275 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:26,960 Speaker 1: focusing on black boys in particular, because black boy narratives 276 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 1: were just gone absolutely and oftentime, falling their stereotypes of 277 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:33,360 Speaker 1: either being some kind of pain narrative you know, they're 278 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 1: trying to get out the hood or like yeah, yeah, yeah, 279 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 1: all those kind of deficit deficient narratives. And so he 280 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 1: started writing these empowering books. Um. And so one of 281 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 1: his books was called Crown, you know, um, and it's 282 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:48,640 Speaker 1: it's it's about the power of black barbershops, and it's 283 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 1: about this kid that goes and gets his first kind 284 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 1: of fresh haircut, right, wants to look fresh. But we remember, 285 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 1: like our kids looking at those books and they're like, oh, 286 00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 1: that's that's my kind of hair. I have hair like that, 287 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:00,800 Speaker 1: and I'll look how that's that? What daddy did? We 288 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 1: went to get a doughnut and we had all these 289 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:06,440 Speaker 1: similar kind of kind of things. Another one is called 290 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:09,560 Speaker 1: yeah called Little Leaders Both Women in Black History, which 291 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:12,640 Speaker 1: is great because it's a board book. It has all 292 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 1: these different profiles of a lot of black women. You've 293 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:18,240 Speaker 1: probably never heard of, these great empowering descriptions written by 294 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 1: this black woman. Um. So that is a great one, 295 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 1: especially to entree for young children when talking about issues 296 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 1: of So great for us because I feel like I 297 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 1: can't do a good job teaching a kid how to 298 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 1: be an anti racist if I'm not also learning myself. 299 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:39,240 Speaker 1: I can't. You know, there's so many things I don't know, um, 300 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:42,400 Speaker 1: and I'm so behind when it comes to yeah, like 301 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 1: powerful black women in history who invented stuff and made 302 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 1: stuff and black men like wasn't taught in school, Like 303 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 1: I have a lot to do and then to get 304 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:57,520 Speaker 1: to show that to my kids. So that's a great idea. Yes, yes, um, 305 00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:00,240 Speaker 1: we will be learning just as much, I swear as 306 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:01,680 Speaker 1: the kids. We were like, oh did you know that? 307 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 1: I didn't know that? I mean I knew that, did 308 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 1: I knew that what's cool about books is that everybody 309 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:10,640 Speaker 1: learns like a family learning tool, right, And although it 310 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:14,040 Speaker 1: is simplified at a nice young age, I swear like, 311 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:16,760 Speaker 1: if you are learning about these concepts, the simplicity and 312 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:19,960 Speaker 1: the accessibility of the language is actually really helpful for parents. 313 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 1: So um, we always say like learning and using books 314 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 1: is actually a group experience. Everybody ends up learning from it. Um. 315 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 1: I remember there's a children's book about George Crumb, for example, 316 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 1: this black guy that have been at the potato chip? 317 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 1: I had no idea, um, and you can amazing though 318 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 1: potato chip is my favorite food, right, so the fact 319 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:43,800 Speaker 1: that I've never googled who invented the potato chip is ridiculous. 320 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 1: The other thing I want to say about the conscious 321 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 1: kid and why it's so helpful is that when you 322 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 1: go to all the books you guys have to list. 323 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 1: What's great is you've listed what age. I think you're 324 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 1: making it so easy for parents to not have to 325 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 1: look up if it's age appropriate, to not to be 326 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 1: able to trust that the author and the topics and 327 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:06,760 Speaker 1: the themes in each book is something that we should 328 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 1: be proud to be sharing with our families and our children, 329 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 1: is like all of the work. So first, so parents, 330 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:16,919 Speaker 1: just get the books, read them to your kids, but 331 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:19,439 Speaker 1: know that that's just a starting point. There's a lot 332 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:22,200 Speaker 1: of action that has to take place after the books. 333 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:35,360 Speaker 1: Books are such a great way to learn collectively, as 334 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:37,919 Speaker 1: you said, but are there any other entry points to 335 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:41,119 Speaker 1: having these critical conversations about race with our kids. It 336 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:43,120 Speaker 1: could be a children's book and be that starting point. 337 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:45,479 Speaker 1: It could be a simple something that they see in 338 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:48,480 Speaker 1: their everyday experiences that you related to UM, and then 339 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:50,399 Speaker 1: you build on it later. I don't expect going to 340 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 1: be critical race theorists overnight at age three, right, But 341 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 1: kind of one particular example is UM. A lot of 342 00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:58,200 Speaker 1: parents are talking about, like how do I talk to 343 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:00,919 Speaker 1: my kids about these protests and everything going on. So 344 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:04,359 Speaker 1: I was talking to my five year old son, UM. 345 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 1: He was asking questions about what was going on, and so, 346 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 1: you know, I just basically had this conversation. I said, 347 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 1: you know what, you know, a long time ago, you know, 348 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:15,240 Speaker 1: there were some people that put a lot of unfair 349 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:18,200 Speaker 1: policies and laws in place that are still around and 350 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:22,159 Speaker 1: not treating black people and people of color fairly in 351 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:25,200 Speaker 1: this country. And people are outside protesting because they want 352 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:27,320 Speaker 1: to see a change, um. And so just kind of 353 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 1: breaking it down really simple like that. He immediately got it, 354 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 1: he understood it. There's this misnomer that if you talk 355 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:34,280 Speaker 1: to race about a child like to you know, like 356 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 1: you're going to traumatize them or or scare them. But kids, 357 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:40,199 Speaker 1: kids are actually very intelligent. They understand what's going on. 358 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:41,959 Speaker 1: And the funny thing is that kids are very much 359 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:44,479 Speaker 1: similar to adults, right, They were very similar as far 360 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:48,320 Speaker 1: as the way that we learned things using stories, using narratives, UM, 361 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 1: experiences in their everyday life that you can relate to. UM. 362 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:54,000 Speaker 1: These are all things that are useful when we're talking 363 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:57,239 Speaker 1: about kind of racing our experiences. The thing that I 364 00:18:57,280 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 1: think is, so I'm trying to think of not as 365 00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:03,800 Speaker 1: a scary thing but like an empowering thing that rather 366 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 1: than my kid getting it elsewhere, well, it's already happening. 367 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:09,800 Speaker 1: I mean, the racism is there, like it's there, so 368 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 1: I have to get in there, you know what I mean. 369 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:15,159 Speaker 1: I have to get in there, you know, in the 370 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:19,600 Speaker 1: developmentally appropriate way. But it's very helpful to me to 371 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 1: hear how parents are having these conversations so that I 372 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 1: can practice and figure out how I'm going to not 373 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:29,840 Speaker 1: be color silent, right, just getting that conversation where we 374 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:32,240 Speaker 1: can at least talk about issues of race, and then 375 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:35,440 Speaker 1: using that as a starting point. Everybody obviously learns differently. 376 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:38,280 Speaker 1: Some learn about it quicker, some become more passionate than others. 377 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:40,399 Speaker 1: But once you have that starting point, you can build 378 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:43,040 Speaker 1: on that for life and by the time there our age, 379 00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:46,520 Speaker 1: they'll be sweeping us under the rug. Oh your lips 380 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:49,679 Speaker 1: to God's ears, like please, I hope that is the case. 381 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 1: Since you've started the Instagram account, I feel like there's 382 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:56,639 Speaker 1: even more going on. Can you explain how that transition 383 00:19:56,680 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 1: has sort of happened and do you feel like your 384 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 1: mission has even changed? Absolutely? So we start off, you know, 385 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 1: with the children's book focus, but we do have a 386 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:06,960 Speaker 1: lot of experience. People are fifteen years experience in this work, 387 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:08,920 Speaker 1: and so we know that a lot of these issues 388 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:12,640 Speaker 1: are embedded structurally within the laws and the policies and norms. 389 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 1: So we've expanded just from doing children's books to doing research, policy, advocacy, 390 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:20,879 Speaker 1: rent relate basically, you know, a critical anti racist space 391 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:23,640 Speaker 1: online all the different ways that it can look. Children's 392 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 1: books are just a starting point, right when we talk 393 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:29,199 Speaker 1: about how do we raise anti racist children, how do 394 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:32,119 Speaker 1: we raise children with critical consciousness? When you're doing this 395 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:33,919 Speaker 1: inequity where you have to come out of from multiple 396 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:36,920 Speaker 1: different angles, right and at the very very least, it's 397 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 1: like lifestyle shift. Right. The conversations you're having with your 398 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:42,399 Speaker 1: child matter, but it's also about very much about what 399 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 1: you're doing. Who are you surrounding yourself with. Do you 400 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 1: live in a segregated neighborhood, you go to a segregated school. 401 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:50,359 Speaker 1: What kind of people are your children being exposed to 402 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 1: on a daily basis, What kind of media messages are 403 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:55,320 Speaker 1: they coming through their household? All these different things right 404 00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:58,439 Speaker 1: shape the ways in which we understand and interact with 405 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:00,919 Speaker 1: the world. UM. And so as the Conscious kid Is 406 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:03,840 Speaker 1: mission has grown, it's just become more holistic and addressing 407 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 1: advocating for policy change through the National Education Association where 408 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:11,200 Speaker 1: they decentered suits and are now supporting diverse books. Right. 409 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 1: That's a structural shift, UM. But it's also in the 410 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:17,239 Speaker 1: training for like organizations and companies that are learning how 411 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 1: to um not just donate money, but what's going on 412 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:23,119 Speaker 1: in our culture and our policies that may be inequitable 413 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:25,879 Speaker 1: that we just never looked at, right, so um growing 414 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:29,000 Speaker 1: into that piece supporting families and schools, and then of 415 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:32,560 Speaker 1: course making sure that we're supporting youth directly through social media. 416 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:35,159 Speaker 1: So it's really just grown to be more holistic and 417 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:37,880 Speaker 1: look at inequity from multi different points that we can 418 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:40,880 Speaker 1: try and push back and resist against. But I'm sure 419 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 1: it's just going to continue to grow as the demand increases. 420 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, you guys have so many followers, but 421 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:51,160 Speaker 1: I feel like your followers are very active on your Instagram, 422 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:53,520 Speaker 1: Like there's a lot of commenting and like back and 423 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:56,719 Speaker 1: forth conversations, and so I find like it's really become 424 00:21:56,760 --> 00:22:01,040 Speaker 1: this awesome sense of community. And as much as social 425 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 1: media can drive people insane, it also can really be 426 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:10,159 Speaker 1: this incredible right now, especially this source of where me 427 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:13,200 Speaker 1: as a white mom, I'm going to unlearn so much 428 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:27,400 Speaker 1: shit you brought up curriculum before. I want to circle back. 429 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:34,160 Speaker 1: So as I've been discovering and talking to my white 430 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:39,840 Speaker 1: friends family members about like Black Wall Street, I've never 431 00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:44,359 Speaker 1: heard about any of this, And then you start to think, oh, 432 00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:47,240 Speaker 1: what else didn't I learn in school? I really don't 433 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:50,640 Speaker 1: know a lot about slavery at all. I really don't um, 434 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:53,800 Speaker 1: And honestly, it wasn't until I worked on Scandal and 435 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 1: one weekend we were all shooting in d C. And 436 00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 1: we all took a tour of the African American Museum 437 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:01,959 Speaker 1: and we were there for hours and hours and hours, 438 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:06,679 Speaker 1: and I, I have to say again embarrassingly, So that 439 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:09,879 Speaker 1: was my first like really deep dive into knowing a 440 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:15,160 Speaker 1: lot historically about slavery. Um. Since you work so closely 441 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 1: with schools and things, what can we do about the 442 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 1: curriculum and the school Like? Wow, what are we supposed 443 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 1: to do to teach our kids the true history and 444 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:28,960 Speaker 1: the truth of why America is America? Yeah? I mean, 445 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:32,760 Speaker 1: curriculum is is such a deep issue because of how 446 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:37,359 Speaker 1: much it really does shape your child's understanding of the world, 447 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 1: the ways in which they see themselves and other groups. 448 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:42,040 Speaker 1: So the work that we've been doing in ethnic studies 449 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:46,800 Speaker 1: basically looks at centering histories and stories of marginal communities 450 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:50,360 Speaker 1: and putting that in our textbooks and using those as 451 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:53,000 Speaker 1: kind of reference points. But it's also borrows from this 452 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:55,720 Speaker 1: notion of what's referred to as culturally relevant pedagogy, where 453 00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:59,440 Speaker 1: it builds basically three things. Right. It's cultural competence, it's 454 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 1: critical consciousness, and then it's also academic rigor. So we're 455 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:05,600 Speaker 1: using stories and narratives from people that we see in 456 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:07,920 Speaker 1: our everyday lives that we can relate to, that we 457 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:11,760 Speaker 1: can understand, right, but we're also talking about them critically, right, 458 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:14,439 Speaker 1: and we're going to also talk about it um and 459 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 1: learn about the cultural shared aspects of that person, meaning like, 460 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,240 Speaker 1: how does this person relate to or push back against 461 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:24,679 Speaker 1: dominant norms? And those norms could be segregation, those norms 462 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:28,680 Speaker 1: could be, um, no black people at your office, right, 463 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:30,600 Speaker 1: It could be a number of things. But I think 464 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:32,480 Speaker 1: studies looks at these stories of people that we've never 465 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:36,359 Speaker 1: heard of that made significant contributions to American history. People 466 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:39,919 Speaker 1: of color, we're talking about women, we're talking about Jews, 467 00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:42,360 Speaker 1: We're talking about all these marginal groups that are left 468 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:44,359 Speaker 1: out of the histories books that make up most of 469 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:47,679 Speaker 1: our classrooms, and reflecting those stories. So when we have 470 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:51,679 Speaker 1: empowering narrative with diverse folks, right, it's great for everybody 471 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:53,840 Speaker 1: because the folks that that are from those communities can 472 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:55,520 Speaker 1: see themselves in the text, but the folks that are 473 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:58,159 Speaker 1: outside of those communities now get ay, it could be 474 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:00,680 Speaker 1: their first entree even into that community, be and be 475 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 1: they get an empowering narrative and more accurate narrative. What 476 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:04,760 Speaker 1: that looks like when we can get those stories from 477 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:07,919 Speaker 1: those communities. So this has got to happen. I know, 478 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,199 Speaker 1: I know, there's like a slight there's a slight movement 479 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:12,640 Speaker 1: that's gone on in California and Arizona, and I think 480 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:14,159 Speaker 1: in New York. It's popping up in a lot of 481 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:17,199 Speaker 1: different states. But the other benefit is that kids actually 482 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:20,200 Speaker 1: do really academically as well, because they're more engaged in 483 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:22,240 Speaker 1: the content because it relates to it. So and the 484 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:24,119 Speaker 1: cool thing about cultural realm and pedagogy. We can do 485 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:25,520 Speaker 1: it with math, we could do it with science, we 486 00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:27,760 Speaker 1: can do with English. Here's an example. So there was 487 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:30,760 Speaker 1: a science class in um in Oakland, and so before 488 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:32,280 Speaker 1: what they would do is they would test like the 489 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:35,119 Speaker 1: waters of their ponds outside, you know, just test for 490 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,080 Speaker 1: like lead levels. But instead the teachers are employing culturally 491 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:40,399 Speaker 1: reallyant pedagogy, and they tested the water in the schools 492 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:42,680 Speaker 1: and they found all kind of lead levels. They took 493 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:44,880 Speaker 1: those lead levels back to the comp back to their 494 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:48,159 Speaker 1: local legislator and was able to advocate for reform and 495 00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:50,480 Speaker 1: get new pipe things. Um. And then students were able 496 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:52,240 Speaker 1: to also take those skills and started applying it to 497 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:54,800 Speaker 1: their neighborhoods. Right there was some of these high income schools. 498 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:56,480 Speaker 1: They would, you know, make fun of these kids for 499 00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:59,000 Speaker 1: being poor, being low income and saying they're dirty, they're 500 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:01,480 Speaker 1: nasty with these kids did as they took the skills 501 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:04,159 Speaker 1: about how to document things, about starting with the problem 502 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:07,600 Speaker 1: first and researching backwards, and began filming how often the 503 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:10,120 Speaker 1: garbage man was coming, and it was coming like three 504 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:12,480 Speaker 1: times less than any other neighborhood. Took that back to 505 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:14,879 Speaker 1: their legislator was able to advocate. So when students were 506 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:17,680 Speaker 1: able to basically see how the content in school actually 507 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 1: can be used in their real life, people become more 508 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:22,640 Speaker 1: engaged because they understand how it actually works. Right, Like 509 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 1: I love George Washington that cherry tree, but I don't 510 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:28,680 Speaker 1: know how that's gonna help me police outside, you know 511 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:31,920 Speaker 1: what I'm saying, right, Or like, for example, I feel 512 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:35,800 Speaker 1: like I learned so much about World War Two in school. 513 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:37,719 Speaker 1: I've been talking about this and I'm like, well, of 514 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:40,719 Speaker 1: course I did. It's like yeay America. We were part 515 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:43,120 Speaker 1: of the Allies and we fought the evil Nazis who 516 00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:44,800 Speaker 1: were like the bad guys, and all of our movies 517 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:47,880 Speaker 1: for like the Last like Forever and Yeah, and like 518 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:50,240 Speaker 1: we came in and saved the day. It's like such 519 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:54,840 Speaker 1: an easy sort of story to digest because like we 520 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:56,879 Speaker 1: were the white heroes and like we came in and 521 00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 1: made the world right again. But if I were to 522 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:01,919 Speaker 1: look back on what I was taught about slavery or 523 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:04,439 Speaker 1: the civil rights movement, or the Vietnam War, or like 524 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:09,840 Speaker 1: anything where we're on the wrong side, it was completely 525 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:14,919 Speaker 1: not detailed, not specific, It was quick, it was like 526 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:18,160 Speaker 1: a little paragraph. It just wasn't great, And I don't 527 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:21,520 Speaker 1: want that for my child, right, And it's also an 528 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:25,080 Speaker 1: unbalanced education. School shouldn't be just about helping people get jobs. 529 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 1: It should be about making you a better person in life, right, 530 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:31,080 Speaker 1: understanding the world better and from there you can figure 531 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:34,800 Speaker 1: out how you want to contribute economically or what that 532 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 1: looks like from those needs. But having those narratives of 533 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 1: these different stories, right, this is what creates empathy with 534 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:43,600 Speaker 1: folks so they can relate and understand. And we also 535 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:46,640 Speaker 1: know that when kids take these like classes with diversity 536 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:50,520 Speaker 1: and equity. It changes their future decision making processes. That's 537 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:52,720 Speaker 1: like one of the biggest findings that it changes the 538 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:56,880 Speaker 1: way you make choices about everything. So when you're beginning 539 00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,280 Speaker 1: to question things and like, maybe this isn't a good 540 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 1: idea for me, maybe I am perpetuating something harmful. How 541 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 1: can I reframing and look at this from a different way. 542 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:06,840 Speaker 1: That's when we are our list, my agency, and we're 543 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,320 Speaker 1: able to kind of disrupt these systems, because then it 544 00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:11,679 Speaker 1: starts to become like I said, that lifestyle, right, you 545 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:14,120 Speaker 1: can't really turn it, you can't go back, you can't 546 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 1: and you shouldn't. Um. I just don't think until we're 547 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:20,760 Speaker 1: able to really look at our curriculum. Honestly, I can 548 00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:23,919 Speaker 1: remember I've been to Berlin a bunch of times, and 549 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:27,000 Speaker 1: when I go to the s S Headquarters museum, it's 550 00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:31,200 Speaker 1: filled with German first graders looking at absolutely horrible images 551 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:35,760 Speaker 1: of what their country did two people and did to 552 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:39,000 Speaker 1: Jewish people. And I'm like, yeah, but like that's what 553 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:42,120 Speaker 1: we need to be doing, like yes to slavery, and 554 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:47,440 Speaker 1: we need to be looking at everything and vibrantly. So, UM, 555 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 1: do you think that will ever happen in our public schools. 556 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:54,440 Speaker 1: That's a good question. Um, So this is what I 557 00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:57,200 Speaker 1: think will happen based off of what has happened before. 558 00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:00,640 Speaker 1: We have these moments, these really strong moment us of reform. 559 00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:03,200 Speaker 1: We might have we were able to disrupt or have 560 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:08,080 Speaker 1: the shifts. But like with every great progression, there's a digression. 561 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:10,040 Speaker 1: So we had Obama and then we got the massive 562 00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:13,520 Speaker 1: white lash, right, So with every great social justice reformed, 563 00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 1: there's a massive lashback. Like ethnic studies came out in 564 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:19,480 Speaker 1: the nineteen sixties, it's like fifty years ago. But then 565 00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 1: the eighties happened in Ronald Reagan and color blindness. That 566 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:26,479 Speaker 1: pretty much just sniped out the whole ethnic studies movement 567 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:28,360 Speaker 1: because people thought it was just like a bunch of 568 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,000 Speaker 1: hand holding and it wasn't really relevant because we don't 569 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:32,680 Speaker 1: talk about race, so why do we need to have 570 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,040 Speaker 1: a whole class about it. Now we're starting to come 571 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 1: back around to it. So if we can keep this 572 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:40,520 Speaker 1: momentum going, there will be changed depending on the location 573 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 1: you are in, because there are just some states that 574 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:44,400 Speaker 1: are gonna be a little bit more pro ethnic studies, 575 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:46,040 Speaker 1: and there are some states that want to hold lot 576 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:49,520 Speaker 1: of those problematic um, kind of classic heroes that have 577 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:54,360 Speaker 1: you know, done a lot of horrific things. So we 578 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:56,720 Speaker 1: have a lot to work to do. And I can't 579 00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:00,680 Speaker 1: thank you enough Ramon for coming on the podcast. In closing, 580 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:03,400 Speaker 1: I just want to bring attention to the incredible COVID 581 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:06,120 Speaker 1: relief that the Conscious Kid is doing. I think it's 582 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:08,200 Speaker 1: a quarter of a million dollars. What have you donated 583 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:11,200 Speaker 1: thus far to Black families? There's been over yeah, over 584 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:14,040 Speaker 1: a quarter of a million dollars um. And then we've 585 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:18,000 Speaker 1: also did relief for general families as well prior to COVID, 586 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:19,880 Speaker 1: and I think that was well over a quarter million 587 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:21,280 Speaker 1: as well. I want to stay close to half a 588 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:25,440 Speaker 1: million to be honest. Um. COVID really looks at how 589 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:29,200 Speaker 1: race intersects with class to create additional layers of marginalization. 590 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 1: When we're talking about, for example, black mothers in particular, 591 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:34,000 Speaker 1: you've got gender, you've got class, and you've got race 592 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:37,400 Speaker 1: all intersecting, and so we know that that creates heightened 593 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:40,040 Speaker 1: need for resources. And so that's why in particularly we 594 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 1: chose to focus on black families who have been marginalized 595 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:47,200 Speaker 1: through COVID nineteen. That's amazing your work is absolutely incredible. 596 00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:50,560 Speaker 1: I can't thank you enough for The Conscious Kid. For 597 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:54,840 Speaker 1: everybody listening who's a parent out there is such a resource. 598 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:57,400 Speaker 1: And we're all on our phones, we are all on Instagram. 599 00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:00,960 Speaker 1: People don't pretend like you're not. And what's great is 600 00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:04,680 Speaker 1: it's important. It's amazing and it's also positive and like 601 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:07,440 Speaker 1: wonderful because you give us a lot of action items. 602 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:09,240 Speaker 1: So instead of just sitting there feeling like I don't 603 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 1: know what to do. I don't know what to do, 604 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:14,560 Speaker 1: We'll go to The Conscious Kid and start with those 605 00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:18,600 Speaker 1: books and reading. Um, thank you so much for coming 606 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:21,520 Speaker 1: on Katie's Crib Ramon. You are awesome. Thank you Katie. 607 00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:23,440 Speaker 1: We appreciate it and keep doing the work you're doing 608 00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:25,720 Speaker 1: because you said a great example and you are modeling 609 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:28,680 Speaker 1: for your young childs about you know, allies that are 610 00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:31,280 Speaker 1: trying to do work. So I appreciate you and thank 611 00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:41,560 Speaker 1: you for having us. Uh yeah, big pleasure. Thank you 612 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:45,760 Speaker 1: guys so much for listening to Katie's Crib. Please rate, review, 613 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:49,479 Speaker 1: subscribe to the podcast, tell your friends, tell your family. Oh, 614 00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:52,080 Speaker 1: if you have a topic or a guest that you 615 00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:55,320 Speaker 1: would like to have on the podcast, send me an 616 00:31:55,320 --> 00:32:00,400 Speaker 1: email at Katie's Crib at Shonda land dot com. Katie's 617 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:03,000 Speaker 1: Grim is a production of Shonda Land Audio in partnership 618 00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:05,880 Speaker 1: with I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from Shondaland Audio, 619 00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:08,680 Speaker 1: visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 620 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:23,880 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows. You can never know 621 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:27,440 Speaker 1: until you try. Meline