Speaker 1: Yeah, welcome to How to Citizen with Baritune Day, a
Speaker 1: podcast that reimagine citizen as a verb, not a legal status.
Speaker 1: This season is all about tech and how it can
Speaker 1: bring us together instead of tearing us apart. We're bringing
Speaker 1: you the people using technology for so much more than
Speaker 1: revenue and user growth. They're using it to help us citizen.
Speaker 1: Can you take me to the scene of the march itself? Yes,
Speaker 1: exterior daytime, American Capital. A group of young people are standing,
Speaker 1: how the stage set up with a big banner and
Speaker 1: a bunch of signs, flags and all sorts of things, banners, everything.
Speaker 1: You're in the power and I feel its energy and
Speaker 1: it's incredible. So keep it up, okay. Rallying for the
Speaker 1: climate and getting ready for the marchatives the priority for you.
Speaker 1: And it just absolutely starts pouring. Just torrential downpour. It
Speaker 1: was raining so hard. Like I'm not talking like oh
Speaker 1: like it drizzled, I'm talking torrential downpour. Your phone vibrates
Speaker 1: saying flash flood alert, not safe to be outside. And
Speaker 1: I remember crying and being really upset throughout the whole
Speaker 1: thing of that, just like, oh no, it's not like
Speaker 1: a sunny beautiful day like I wanted it to be.
Speaker 1: Why did it have to rain? We worked so hard
Speaker 1: for this day, for a whole year and everything like that.
Speaker 1: A lot of the water protectors from Standing Rock were
Speaker 1: there that day. They came all the way from different
Speaker 1: reservations to to come be at the march, and Seby
Speaker 1: Medina Tayak, who is an Indigenous climate activist, kept emphasizing,
Speaker 1: like utter is life, there's nothing inherently wrong with it. Raining,
Speaker 1: water soaked like wet rats, just dripping like we had
Speaker 1: all just been through a very unforgiving shower, and the
Speaker 1: paint from some of our signs was like just it dripped,
Speaker 1: like it literally bled into the canvas of one of
Speaker 1: our banners. But we still marched, we still rallied. One
Speaker 1: of the rally leaders yelled out the rain brings out
Speaker 1: the real ones, and so it was just a bunch
Speaker 1: of like the real ones, just in it together, finishing
Speaker 1: this march with rain ponchos, trying to stay warm, and
Speaker 1: it was just this emotional sense of solidarity and family.
Speaker 1: The pictures from that day it's just us like crusading
Speaker 1: against the storm, and you can see them just look
Speaker 1: up zero our Youth Climate March. The next day in
Speaker 1: the New York Times. We had a full spread in
Speaker 1: the Sunday Times about the work that we were doing,
Speaker 1: and we still made an impact, act like we were
Speaker 1: making a difference. I like to think that Mother Earth
Speaker 1: was also weeping out of appreciation, you know, for you
Speaker 1: taking a stand, So maybe you think about it that
Speaker 1: way as well. She weeped in a temperature that was
Speaker 1: a little colder than preferred. If I appreciate it, and
Speaker 1: I love her sentiment. But if the next time she
Speaker 1: weeps out of appreciation for an action that I do outdoors,
Speaker 1: if it could not make me shiver, that would be amazing.
Speaker 1: I'll put in a word. You put in a word.
Speaker 1: I'm grateful for her, But I would have just I
Speaker 1: was very cold. Jamie mark Goland is a nineteen year
Speaker 1: old global leader in the fight against climate change. She
Speaker 1: co founded Zero Hour, a youth led movement of activists
Speaker 1: who are organizing grassroots efforts for environmental issues. Jamie wears
Speaker 1: a ton of hats as an organizer, activist, author, and
Speaker 1: fellow podcaster. The future of the planet is tied to
Speaker 1: Jamie's future. She and so many young people like herself
Speaker 1: are demanding action from those who currently hold power. Her
Speaker 1: book Used to Power gives people of all ages a
Speaker 1: guide book to starting a movement. In that book, Jamie
Speaker 1: details how to organize, fundraise, and communicate with people across
Speaker 1: the globe effectively. I care a lot about the climate
Speaker 1: crisis because I like having a livable planet, and I
Speaker 1: understand how urgent it is. I'd like to believe that
Speaker 1: tech can help us, but I just don't know so
Speaker 1: when it comes to climate change, is technology helping or
Speaker 1: making the situation worse? I wanted to hear from someone
Speaker 1: on the ground, fighting for the planet, fighting for us,
Speaker 1: a person who was born in the age of smartphones
Speaker 1: and social media, who's got an intimate relationship with tech.
Speaker 1: In other words, Jamie, is tech empowering a whole generation
Speaker 1: to get involved? If so, I wanted to find out how,
Speaker 1: what methods are they using, and what does it take
Speaker 1: to host the Youth Climate March at the age of sixteen.
Speaker 1: Good to see you, Hello, Hello, it is so good
Speaker 1: to see you too. Thank you for making the time.
Speaker 1: I know you're busy trying to help save our only
Speaker 1: home planet, So just appreciation right off top for which you.
Speaker 1: Thank you thank you so much. I appreciate it. Can
Speaker 1: you say your full name, introduce yourself and what it
Speaker 1: is you do. Yeah, hello everyone. My name is Jamie,
Speaker 1: said I Margolin. I'm nineteen years old. I'm a climate
Speaker 1: justice organizer film student at n y U. I'm a
Speaker 1: plaintiff on the Youth Peak of lawsuits doing the State
Speaker 1: of Washington for continuing to worsen the climate crisis. Um,
Speaker 1: and that lawsuit is still going on. And I'm the
Speaker 1: co founder of an international youth climate justice organization called
Speaker 1: Zero Hour, author of a book called Youth to Power
Speaker 1: Your Voice and How to Use It, which is a
Speaker 1: guide to being a young organizer for any cause for
Speaker 1: anyone who wants to get involved. I'm also a filmmaker
Speaker 1: and a screenwriter and just released the pilot of a
Speaker 1: show that I wrote and directed and acted in called
Speaker 1: Art Majors about queer teens in college. And I am
Speaker 1: also the host of a podcast called Lavender You, which
Speaker 1: is a queer media analysis podcast. So yeah, um, and
Speaker 1: I'm a sophomore in college. Jamie, UM, why aren't you
Speaker 1: doing more with your life? You're busy. I know what
Speaker 1: busy is. So I say this as a busy person.
Speaker 1: You're busy. It's good, good for good for you. We're
Speaker 1: in this project this whole season talking about tech and
Speaker 1: how it can help us be active citizens as supposed
Speaker 1: to undermine that. And I really wanted to talk to
Speaker 1: you about tech and activism and it was very natural
Speaker 1: because I met you because of a tech platform exactly.
Speaker 1: Let's check our memories here, as I recall, you hit
Speaker 1: me up on a Twitter d M in the summer
Speaker 1: and you're like, would you be willing to help out?
Speaker 1: We're doing like a climate youth march and we can
Speaker 1: use your help. And I was like, yeah, I'm down cool,
Speaker 1: what do you need? And then I just got hit
Speaker 1: with like zoom invites and text messages. I was on
Speaker 1: a conference call. People were assigning me things to do,
Speaker 1: and I remember specifically you had a message that was
Speaker 1: because I had access to media, I was going on
Speaker 1: cable news fairly frequently, and you're like, all these people
Speaker 1: talking about the climate crisis, they're not going to be
Speaker 1: subject to it the way my generation is. They need
Speaker 1: to have young people on talking about the climate crisis.
Speaker 1: And you said, so, what I need you to do
Speaker 1: is I need you to introduce me to bookers at
Speaker 1: the Daily Show at MSNBC CNN, and I jumped on
Speaker 1: a zoom. I was on the Amtrak train going probably
Speaker 1: between New York and d C. And I was on
Speaker 1: this zoom with a Google spreadsheet open agree like, I'll
Speaker 1: get you to m R Melbourne and I'll try with
Speaker 1: Brian Williams said, like we had divided this list. There
Speaker 1: were like five of you and a couple of old
Speaker 1: people like me, and it was so bold and so beautiful.
Speaker 1: Is that how you remember? Um? Okay, I'm a lot
Speaker 1: more of a subtle person now as a nineteen year
Speaker 1: old than the way I approached people as a sixteen
Speaker 1: year old, where I was like do thing for me, please,
Speaker 1: Oh yes, you've matured and aged. And the funny thing is, okay,
Speaker 1: this is gonna sound terrible. But I actually don't even
Speaker 1: remember that conversation because I had like around that time
Speaker 1: I did that to like I was just it wasn't
Speaker 1: I think it might have stood out to you because
Speaker 1: you were like, what the hell is this? But like
Speaker 1: I was just on so many calls and just trying
Speaker 1: to get so many people to like mobilize, and I
Speaker 1: was a ball of stress because I was like this
Speaker 1: smart has to change everything. I was just so in
Speaker 1: action mode that I was annoying like that on many
Speaker 1: a call. I have had moments in my life Where'm
Speaker 1: in this fugue state and I don't remember stuff either,
Speaker 1: So I'm not really taken it personally, but it is
Speaker 1: amusing to me, and I will hold this over your
Speaker 1: head for the rest of our lives. Um. But I
Speaker 1: also it's complimentary. You know, you, in my view, were
Speaker 1: right to be fired up. You were right to demand
Speaker 1: that there are too many people on television talking about
Speaker 1: this thing that I don't know what they're talking about,
Speaker 1: and the people closer to the problem should be closer
Speaker 1: to talking about these solutions. And I love you know
Speaker 1: what zero hours about. We'll get into that. So I
Speaker 1: don't take it as like, oh, Jamie was that annoying
Speaker 1: kid they dragged me into a zoom. Jamie was this
Speaker 1: right person who is enlisting me to help a just cause.
Speaker 1: I the fact that, like most people, I guess know
Speaker 1: me from what I've done three years ago, and I'm
Speaker 1: such a vastlet of person now is such a weird
Speaker 1: disconnect because I'm like I was a child and I
Speaker 1: still am young, But there is a lot that happens
Speaker 1: and a lot of maturing and growing up that I've
Speaker 1: had to do, just in my personal life and in
Speaker 1: life in general, to be frank which and sincere, I
Speaker 1: was sixteen, and I was very different when I was nineteen,
Speaker 1: and I'm certainly different at forty four. Like we're all
Speaker 1: always changing. So I'm giving you a hard time, but
Speaker 1: it's not it's not real. So you've done something else
Speaker 1: that that a lot of us haven't done. You've testified
Speaker 1: before Congress back in people call my generation generation Z
Speaker 1: as if we have the last generation, but we're not.
Speaker 1: We're refusing to be the last letter of the alphabet.
Speaker 1: What were you saying to these federal elected officials and
Speaker 1: what's your take on the federal government response to this crisis. Well,
Speaker 1: what I was saying to them is basically that it's
Speaker 1: very rare that they hear from like a young social
Speaker 1: justice leader, and it's a lot more often that they
Speaker 1: hear from fossil fuel lobbyists. And so I said, like
Speaker 1: for a couple of minutes that you're listening to me
Speaker 1: right now, the vast majority of the time with the
Speaker 1: people in your years are the ones who are you
Speaker 1: know funding our destruction? I talked about the Pacific Northwest,
Speaker 1: where I'm from. I've talked about just all the frustration
Speaker 1: that I've been feeling. I broke down a lot of
Speaker 1: the myths that they kept perpetuating, like we can't take
Speaker 1: action because China isn't and just all of these ridiculous
Speaker 1: arguments that they were making. I told them about the science.
Speaker 1: I told them that we have no more time to act.
Speaker 1: That how can they look their children in the eye
Speaker 1: and tell them that they didn't do everything they could
Speaker 1: to save their lives and futures before it's too late. Yeah,
Speaker 1: do you think anybody heard you? I know that a
Speaker 1: lot of people in the public heard me, Like it
Speaker 1: went semi viral and a lot of people were inspired
Speaker 1: by it. And we're complimenting. But the thing is, like,
Speaker 1: I think the people that were amplifying it were people
Speaker 1: that already supported my message. Anyway, it was covered by
Speaker 1: Bright part and like a lot of conservative media, and
Speaker 1: it was on Fox News. Another demand of the Youth
Speaker 1: Climate Strike Group is what they're calling quote comprehensive climate
Speaker 1: change education. They wanted for children aged five to four
Speaker 1: to five years old. Why so young. In other words,
Speaker 1: brainwashing is easier when they're little. And they were reporting
Speaker 1: on it satirically, but it was still coverage from people
Speaker 1: who we're hearing my message anyway. It's funny because their
Speaker 1: headlines would be mocking, like radical climate activists says climate
Speaker 1: change is a racist issue, and I'm like correct and
Speaker 1: they say it like it's a bad thing. And you
Speaker 1: made Fox News stay climate change. You made Fox newsake
Speaker 1: and I made them stay climate change. I mean, like,
Speaker 1: even if they're making fun of me, I did my
Speaker 1: part when you set up this contrast of who are
Speaker 1: politicians listened to? Overwhelmingly more time spent with fossil fuel
Speaker 1: executives than with the future generations inheriting this world. I
Speaker 1: wonder a lot of us see climate and the climate crisis.
Speaker 1: We frame it in terms of fossil fuels and like
Speaker 1: industrial output things since the industrial revolution. You have a
Speaker 1: broader view, in a slightly different view of just how
Speaker 1: to define this crisis? How do you define it? Well?
Speaker 1: I define the climate crisis as the grand culmination of
Speaker 1: all of our societal evils come together in one big, bad,
Speaker 1: final video game boss. That's how I view it, you know,
Speaker 1: I view it as a combination of the consequences of colonialism, racism, patriarchy,
Speaker 1: capitalism on steroids, everything combined into this monster that is
Speaker 1: us causing our own destruction. I mean, we know literally
Speaker 1: where climate change came from the Industrial revolution in greenhouse
Speaker 1: gas emissions. If you go back further, how did we
Speaker 1: get to a society that was so inherently extracted and
Speaker 1: you go back to colonialism and the triangle trade and
Speaker 1: the genocide of indigenous people. In that way of life
Speaker 1: and existing with the earth as opposed to the European
Speaker 1: colonial way of existing and extracting from the earth, and
Speaker 1: that way of moving through the world, of not moving
Speaker 1: through it in collaboration or in harmony, but moving through
Speaker 1: it in competition and in green is the root of
Speaker 1: how we're in this. And so when people are like,
Speaker 1: stop talking about gender, stop talking about race, we need
Speaker 1: to focus on climate, or this is about the environment,
Speaker 1: they're not understanding that we exist in the environment. So
Speaker 1: our issues are inherently intertwined, like we are not separate
Speaker 1: from it. We're not separate from the oxygen we breathe,
Speaker 1: because without it we would be too dead to be
Speaker 1: having this conversation. You're very good, Jamie would very good.
Speaker 1: When we come back, Jamie shares the tension of using
Speaker 1: tech and its attempts to use her Yeah, when you
Speaker 1: were first starting out, what did you think it would
Speaker 1: take to build a social movement around climate change? And
Speaker 1: what did it end up actually taking? It ended up
Speaker 1: taking what I thought it would take. I wasn't under
Speaker 1: the fantasy that I would post one thing on Instagram
Speaker 1: and it would magically blow up virally and then everything
Speaker 1: would come together and it would be perfect and I
Speaker 1: would save the world. Yea, We're done. That's not how
Speaker 1: activism works. No, No, it's not what took me by surprise,
Speaker 1: and which shouldn't have as the amount of people, skills
Speaker 1: and collaboration that it would need. I am an only child,
Speaker 1: grew up without a pet, and so I've just been
Speaker 1: like kind of that nerdy girl who was I mean,
Speaker 1: I had friends and things, but I was always kind
Speaker 1: of learned to entertain myself do projects by myself. In
Speaker 1: my head, I was like, how hard is managing a
Speaker 1: massive group of very opinionated teenagers from all around the
Speaker 1: country going to be? It will be easy. I was
Speaker 1: worried about the work, but I didn't think about management
Speaker 1: and team building. I hated group projects at school. This
Speaker 1: was the ultimate group project that I cared so deeply about,
Speaker 1: and at some point it got too big to be
Speaker 1: in my own control, and I didn't expect. You know,
Speaker 1: when your child outgrows you and it's no longer even
Speaker 1: about you, And that was fine. The goal was never
Speaker 1: referred to be about me. I'm glad when I hear like,
Speaker 1: people recognize your are but they have no idea who
Speaker 1: I am, And I'm like, that's perfect. But it was
Speaker 1: both thrilling and also scary because I had to let
Speaker 1: go because it was like this was no longer my
Speaker 1: brain child, my passion, like my dream. It now meant
Speaker 1: something to other people, and so I suddenly felt like
Speaker 1: I had transferred a dream onto others and now they
Speaker 1: were invested in. So I didn't expect the pressure of
Speaker 1: feeling responsible for not letting everyone down to Yeah, breakdown
Speaker 1: how you approach using technology to support your activism. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And there's a whole chapter in Youth to Power that's
Speaker 1: all about digital organizing and how to use social media
Speaker 1: to your advantage while not letting it use you. And
Speaker 1: the main things that I talked about were a consolidated
Speaker 1: message things like you know, coming up with a campaign
Speaker 1: hashtag and accounts and graphics and concise messaging links, making
Speaker 1: sure that things are very easy for people. You know,
Speaker 1: how to have a coordinated like press kit. Let's say
Speaker 1: you're promoting an action. When zero hour was promoting our
Speaker 1: youth climate marches, for example, we had specific graphics that
Speaker 1: are designer na the ANASA made, as well as some
Speaker 1: hashtags and pre written out captions that we would send
Speaker 1: to people to then post online to get more people
Speaker 1: to sign up and register for this event. And we
Speaker 1: were using tool kits, which is just like a Google
Speaker 1: Drive with all of the things compiled. Also like dm
Speaker 1: NG people, as I did to you, maybe a little annoying,
Speaker 1: but also like I knew what I was doing and
Speaker 1: I had a real vision. So people listen to me,
Speaker 1: but maybe don't be like as annoying as I was
Speaker 1: when I was sixteen. When you think about the platforms
Speaker 1: you rely on, what do you use the most, What
Speaker 1: do you rely on the most In terms of internal organizing,
Speaker 1: Google Drive is like the thing like that is like
Speaker 1: the holy grail of all things, whether I'm filmmaking or
Speaker 1: starting an organization, or writing a book. So if you
Speaker 1: aren't in on the Google drive magic, Google doesn't need
Speaker 1: me yet. I don't need to advertise for them. I
Speaker 1: don't know why. I like, like we check out Google.
Speaker 1: There are a small business that could really use your help. No,
Speaker 1: what I mean is that's the biggest internal tool. Also Slack.
Speaker 1: People use slack a lot. I'm using the word tool
Speaker 1: too much, but it is a great tool. How does
Speaker 1: your hour continue to use tech to organize and stay relevant?
Speaker 1: And what are y'all using a fundraise? Is there anything
Speaker 1: that feels novel about how you've deployed tech or communicated
Speaker 1: with each other or built coalitions because of what tech
Speaker 1: is enabled that maybe some other era might not have
Speaker 1: afforded you. Yeah, I mean crowdfunding is huge go fund
Speaker 1: me and action network and like crowdfunding sites or also
Speaker 1: like crowd petition gathering sites or like email gathering platforms,
Speaker 1: eat mailing servers, ways to disseminate information on a mass level,
Speaker 1: and ways to crowd fund. It's something that people before
Speaker 1: us didn't have access to where I can just open
Speaker 1: up a website, put together a thing like hey, help
Speaker 1: us raise money for this or come to this event,
Speaker 1: put in the location that makes things a lot more
Speaker 1: are accessible. Do you struggle at all with the tech
Speaker 1: that you depend on, given how so much of it
Speaker 1: isn't designed with our collective best interest in mind? Absolutely.
Speaker 1: Social media gives me a lot of anxiety because it's
Speaker 1: very overstimulating to know every single bad event in the
Speaker 1: world happening at all times. That's why there's the term
Speaker 1: doom scrolling. And it's also discouraging, you know, when you
Speaker 1: see creators who you admire being censored or punished for
Speaker 1: simply posting queer content or other content that you know
Speaker 1: a lot of the algorithms consider violating guidelines or whatever.
Speaker 1: I've used to feel the pressure to weigh in about
Speaker 1: everything all of the time, like, oh, like I need
Speaker 1: to comment about all the things. And then I'm like,
Speaker 1: why do I need to comment on all of the things.
Speaker 1: Bo Burnham had a great special called Inside where he's like,
Speaker 1: can any one person in one place shut up about
Speaker 1: one thing for one hour? Please? And I resonated with
Speaker 1: that because I'm like, there's just so much noise. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And then I'm like this is fake and designed to
Speaker 1: make me get addicted. It has benefits, and I will
Speaker 1: use it for those but I'm going to create a
Speaker 1: healthy boundary so that the number of likes does not
Speaker 1: affect how I feel about it at all. It's just like, well,
Speaker 1: the algorithm didn't like that whatever, you know, Instead of
Speaker 1: caring like it wants us to and using social media
Speaker 1: as a tool and not letting it use me, because
Speaker 1: for a while I was letting it use me. With organizing,
Speaker 1: the technical element of organizing being so much simpler with
Speaker 1: modern technology than it was fifty years ago, do you
Speaker 1: think that shifts your available use of energy away from
Speaker 1: the tool to the organizing itself. Yeah, definitely. I just
Speaker 1: feel like, I mean, the myth of technology is that
Speaker 1: it makes it so we don't have to work anymore,
Speaker 1: and it's it does everything for us. My dad was
Speaker 1: telling me that back the invention of like the computer,
Speaker 1: in different things, like people who are like, wow, it's
Speaker 1: going to be so revolutionary, Everyone's going to have so
Speaker 1: much more time in their day. I don't think that's true.
Speaker 1: I think we're more busy, stressed, burnt out, and unrested
Speaker 1: than ever. So clearly access to digital organizing tools isn't
Speaker 1: freeing us up to like do other things. It's precarious
Speaker 1: tools to be using, so you will find yourself. I
Speaker 1: will do this still where I'm like, okay, I need
Speaker 1: to DM someone about this event or something like that,
Speaker 1: something business related. I go into my Instagram, Okay, I
Speaker 1: need to send a message. I see something. Something pops up.
Speaker 1: Two hours later, I'm like, what, how am I here?
Speaker 1: And what was I supposed to do? So I don't
Speaker 1: know how time saving it is. Yeah, well here's a
Speaker 1: here's a shift. Someone listening to this. I heard what
Speaker 1: you said about how we should consider the climate crisis.
Speaker 1: They're moved, they're motivated. What do you want them to do? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I think can help in that. Like social media, you know,
Speaker 1: it has its downsides, just like everything, and you know,
Speaker 1: people use and abuse it just like they do with
Speaker 1: any other tool that gets turned into a weapon when
Speaker 1: in the wrong hands or leveraged incorrectly. It's just like anything.
Speaker 1: It's just like a knife can be something violent, or
Speaker 1: it can be used to cut, you know, some carrots
Speaker 1: for a really great soup. Yes, and so for those
Speaker 1: of you who want to use it as a useful tool,
Speaker 1: then I really encourage you to find organizations in your area.
Speaker 1: You have like ten dollars five dollars a month to spare.
Speaker 1: Find a local grassroots organization online and sign up to
Speaker 1: help support them. For a grassroots organization, having that reliable
Speaker 1: income can be really helpful. Use social media for good.
Speaker 1: Cur at your feed to be following organizations like Zero
Speaker 1: Hour or the International Indigenous Youth Council or UNAS or
Speaker 1: a bunch of other like great accounts to follow. Do
Speaker 1: you have climate anxiety? Are you feeling hopeless? Is so?
Speaker 1: Stick around? I promise we've got some uplift and wisdom
Speaker 1: from Jamie. On the other side, we are used to
Speaker 1: conceiving of you know. I read the I p c
Speaker 1: c's latest you know report. It's overwhelming, It's it's unequivocal.
Speaker 1: It was a word that comes across a few times there.
Speaker 1: And I'm part of a generation and certainly those before
Speaker 1: me that can be pretty cynical. Get when I feel
Speaker 1: the energy of youth climate activists and climate justice folks,
Speaker 1: there's optimism there. Yeah, where is that optimism coming from?
Speaker 1: And what do you say to people who think this
Speaker 1: is just too big? We've proven unworthy this far? Why
Speaker 1: would be changed now? I mean, first of all, let's
Speaker 1: not pretend like young people are all like, yeah, we're
Speaker 1: so enthusiastic and optimistic. There is a huge levels of
Speaker 1: climate anxiety, and honestly, at this point, I call it
Speaker 1: climate depression because anxiety implies fearing for something in the
Speaker 1: future that hasn't happened yet, versus depression is the sadness
Speaker 1: of it, in the grief of the environmental destruction that
Speaker 1: is already happening, and that is so overwhelming, and so
Speaker 1: for me it has been very difficult to like I
Speaker 1: I feel. I know this sounds cheesy and people might
Speaker 1: be like, shut up, Jamie, but sometimes I will get
Speaker 1: to a moment where I feel the pain of just
Speaker 1: like the earth and the people and everything that's suffering,
Speaker 1: and it's overwhelming, and I feel genuinely heartbroken and like
Speaker 1: this deep grief. While I can like go on a
Speaker 1: podcast and talk about it and go to a protest
Speaker 1: and organize, there's only a certain level to which I
Speaker 1: can affect it. Because I'm one little human out of
Speaker 1: aliens on this planet. I feel that, and I feel that,
Speaker 1: But I think I guess the reason why we're still
Speaker 1: in this is because giving up is not an option.
Speaker 1: I just feel like it's the nature of nature to
Speaker 1: want to survive. Plants always try to grow, you know,
Speaker 1: in weird places where they're not supposed to. You'll see
Speaker 1: like bugs and weird animals and places where you think,
Speaker 1: how is anything alive? It's life's instinct to keep having
Speaker 1: hope in itself, and so I think that's where it
Speaker 1: comes from at this point, honestly, with this level of
Speaker 1: climate disaster, and just sometimes I do feel like I'm
Speaker 1: at Rome right before the fall, and I'm like, I'm
Speaker 1: learning how to integrate into Roman society when it's collapsing.
Speaker 1: This is really weird. I feel that way a lot.
Speaker 1: But then I'm also like, what other choice do I have?
Speaker 1: I hear you, fellow Roman, So so let me ask
Speaker 1: you this. Do you think technology is helping or is
Speaker 1: it during the climate crisis. My main thing with technology
Speaker 1: and the climate crisis is that I feel like people
Speaker 1: act as if technology is somehow a replacement for social
Speaker 1: justice or climate justice or dismantling what has to go.
Speaker 1: And I think that there's a danger in putting too
Speaker 1: much faith in innovating our way out of this, or
Speaker 1: we'll just check our way out of this. We'll build
Speaker 1: the spaceship and we'll do this. Like, I feel like
Speaker 1: there also has to be some respect for the natural technologies.
Speaker 1: Technology is also the ancient technologies of our planet, of
Speaker 1: the ecosystems of trees. I feel like those are technologies
Speaker 1: that we have to respect to. And when we get
Speaker 1: so caught up in trying to hate generalizing, but it's
Speaker 1: it's tech bros. You know, the tech bro type where
Speaker 1: they're just like, I know, I definitely know who you're
Speaker 1: talking about. Oh man, Like the climate crisis, it's it'll
Speaker 1: be totally fine. We'll like just g o engineer everything,
Speaker 1: and then I have the spaceship to go to Mars
Speaker 1: and we'll just like suck in all the carbon with
Speaker 1: my fancy new gadget. And it's like, that's not the
Speaker 1: real root solution that needs to happen. Technology does help us,
Speaker 1: solar panels, digital organizing tools, everything. The technology we're using
Speaker 1: to have this conversation right now awesome, But we can't
Speaker 1: act like it's a replacement for the real change that
Speaker 1: has to happen. How did you come to have this
Speaker 1: expanded definition of technology. I think it was over time.
Speaker 1: I mean, part of it is like my Ahuila, you know,
Speaker 1: she always would have herbal remedies and curism. We would
Speaker 1: call her doctoral Lucilla, even though she's not a doctor.
Speaker 1: She didn't even receive any sort of education. She grew
Speaker 1: up as a campasina in rural part of Colombia. But
Speaker 1: she had the ancient knowledge from her ancestors, from her mom,
Speaker 1: from her siblings, of you know what foods and plants
Speaker 1: and things are good for you and help with certain things.
Speaker 1: And that is a wisdom, a sort of ancient knowledge.
Speaker 1: But I just kind of have always understood that there's
Speaker 1: more too, Like there's other things to respect, other than
Speaker 1: just what men and lab coats say. Like I'm a
Speaker 1: very scientific person. I'm not. I don't I believe in science,
Speaker 1: but I just mean that this is also science too.
Speaker 1: I also think of them as like technologies of harnessing
Speaker 1: like the power of ourselves and the planet. Like people
Speaker 1: talk about sometimes meditation is like an ancient technology, and
Speaker 1: like I've been trying to meditate regularly and tap into
Speaker 1: that beautiful that's really that's really helpful. It's a dope perspective.
Speaker 1: I think it adds balance to our interpretation of technology
Speaker 1: and of ourselves, and in a moment when we're out
Speaker 1: of balance, you know, see climate crisis. We could expand
Speaker 1: our definition of technology to to come back to balance
Speaker 1: by waiting a bit more respect for some of these
Speaker 1: ancient technologies you just talked about. We call this show
Speaker 1: how to Citizen. We believe in interpreting this word not
Speaker 1: as a legal noun weapon, but rather as a verb.
Speaker 1: I mean, we do stuff. When you think of the
Speaker 1: word citizen as a verb, what does it mean to you?
Speaker 1: I think that being a good citizen is is also
Speaker 1: about knowing when to question authority in the right way.
Speaker 1: We are here at the first hour you mad in
Speaker 1: our nation's history. However, you all around the world have
Speaker 1: been working for a lot longer than this, especially you
Speaker 1: have color indigenous. You have been raising your voices for
Speaker 1: climate justice. People often criticize activists in those taking action
Speaker 1: as being poor citizens, bad patriots. You hate your country?
Speaker 1: Why are you a bad citizen? And I actually think
Speaker 1: it's very good citizenship to be protesting when something's wrong,
Speaker 1: because that shows a level of love and care for
Speaker 1: the people around you and your state or country or
Speaker 1: wherever you're from. If you're taking time out of your
Speaker 1: busy existence to fight for something, I think that's excellent citizenship.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. Jamie, thank you so much for making time
Speaker 1: for us. Thank you so much for having me. And
Speaker 1: if people want to stay in touch with me after this,
Speaker 1: you can follow me online at Jamie mark Golan on
Speaker 1: all social media platforms, and you can read my book
Speaker 1: Youth to Power at www dot youth to PowerBook dot com.
Speaker 1: Thank you, I know you have to fly to the
Speaker 1: other thing. Appreciate you. D M me. Anytime I had
Speaker 1: set myself up for an onslaught of tech focused activism,
Speaker 1: I wanted this gen z radical to tell me what
Speaker 1: apps I should download, the up and coming programs to
Speaker 1: get you organized and mobilized, and how do you use
Speaker 1: TikTok to build a revolution and save the whole dangn world.
Speaker 1: But in it, she took me all the way back
Speaker 1: to ancient technology. Now, in the first half of this season,
Speaker 1: we've met people who are creating whole new tech frameworks,
Speaker 1: their coding, hacking, operating with thousands, if not millions of people.
Speaker 1: Jamie uses Google, Drive, Instagram, and a little bit of
Speaker 1: Slack and a lot of d m s. Although her
Speaker 1: methods are less complex, it makes her endeavor more accessible
Speaker 1: and it should be like today, a kid anywhere in
Speaker 1: the world can learn, connect and join into this effort
Speaker 1: with Jamie Tomorrow. Jamie's got this healthy humility about the
Speaker 1: role of technology when it comes to solving problems. Tech
Speaker 1: doesn't solve problems. People do. And this whole interview got
Speaker 1: me thinking about what technology even is, how far back
Speaker 1: does it go. Some of our oldest technologies are connected
Speaker 1: to the earth. Made of the earth. We dug our
Speaker 1: hands into the dirt, took the stone we found and
Speaker 1: sharpened it to make tools, struck them together to create fire,
Speaker 1: Learned to respect flames wild nature, manipulating that to make
Speaker 1: meals and create comfort and hold up, Hold up, Okay,
Speaker 1: I know I'm getting a little spoken word with all
Speaker 1: this nature talk. I think what I need is some
Speaker 1: fresh air and some perspective. So let's take this outside
Speaker 1: and hey, I know a good spot. Being outside has
Speaker 1: always been a really important part of my life, maybe
Speaker 1: especially because I grew up in the city, but my
Speaker 1: mom would take us camping, me and my little friends,
Speaker 1: bike trips and hiking trips. I'm thinking about which path
Speaker 1: I'm going to take to get to my hilltop. I
Speaker 1: think I take a shorter one today just for time.
Speaker 1: All right, I'm approaching my favorite part of my morning
Speaker 1: hike for the mornings when I really want to push myself.
Speaker 1: I'm about to climb a hill. And it's like, you know,
Speaker 1: I joke about people in l A calling everything a hike.
Speaker 1: This is a hike. I'm going off roads, scrambling up dirt.
Speaker 1: Let's climbing this hill. All right. I have a little
Speaker 1: bit more to go, but let's keep walking. We talked
Speaker 1: a lot in this show about investing in relationships. Is
Speaker 1: one about pillars to citizen is to invest in relationships
Speaker 1: with yourself, with others, and with the planet around you.
Speaker 1: And we've evolved that if you've been listening to us
Speaker 1: from the very beginning, we didn't say not about the
Speaker 1: planet or the environment, which is said invest in relationships,
Speaker 1: but the planet part is critical. Very recently the summer,
Speaker 1: I got to return to nature on purpose with a
Speaker 1: film crew to make this TV show for PBS called
Speaker 1: America Outdoors with Barritune Day Thirsty. That's me. And what
Speaker 1: I got most out of the America Outdoors experience is
Speaker 1: I got to spend time with three different indigenous communities,
Speaker 1: the Shashawani Bannock in Idaho, the salmon people. We were
Speaker 1: supposed to do a traditional salmon hunt, and we couldn't
Speaker 1: because the climate change, because the salmon has been cooked
Speaker 1: by their habitat, by their river. The ones that could
Speaker 1: make it, we're so weak that the tribe decided to
Speaker 1: leave them be. And they explain their relationship to the salmon.
Speaker 1: They said, we call him brother salmon, we say father tree.
Speaker 1: These are all relations of our and they have taken
Speaker 1: care of us. They have provided for us for thousands
Speaker 1: of years, so it's our turn to take care of them.
Speaker 1: I think that Shoshani Bannock would consider in the salmon citizens.
Speaker 1: I think that salmon citizens for them, and so they're
Speaker 1: doing it in return. There's a reciprocity involved. And I'm
Speaker 1: so grateful that Jamie is here to remind us of
Speaker 1: our youngest guests ever by far spit in some wisdom
Speaker 1: that and we were part of all of this, not
Speaker 1: apart from it. I'm really hoping the wind isn't ruining
Speaker 1: this little soliloquy, and if it is, I'm gonna roll
Speaker 1: with it, because the wind is just trying to drive
Speaker 1: home my point because we're sharing this because I wouldn't
Speaker 1: be thinking this if I wasn't here feeling these things.
Speaker 1: All right, this is a fun part. I'm going to
Speaker 1: take you down the hill with me. My descent, I
Speaker 1: used to kind of jog down because it helped me
Speaker 1: feel fit active person. Next week, we take a step
Speaker 1: into a town corrupted by misinformation and disinformation, and I
Speaker 1: get to help sow the seeds of chaos. Play let's
Speaker 1: destroy society. Congratulations, you're hired. Welcome to your first day
Speaker 1: as our new chief disinformation officer. Let's get started. Trust me,
Speaker 1: it's for the greater good. I can't wait for you
Speaker 1: to hear this next one. Now, you know, I can't
Speaker 1: have some young activist on the show and not give
Speaker 1: you some actions to do. So here's the actions. Jamie
Speaker 1: helped us conceive of technology in a different, more elemental way.
Speaker 1: So the first thing I want you to do is
Speaker 1: ask yourself some questions. When you think of technology, what
Speaker 1: do you think of when you think of nature? What
Speaker 1: do you think of and do you ever think of
Speaker 1: the same things? And answer to both questions. Next, let's
Speaker 1: get more informed about climate threats and opportunities for better
Speaker 1: climate news, which we all need. Visit covering climate Now
Speaker 1: dot org is really good on social media. Follow groups
Speaker 1: like this is Zero Hour and Sunrise Movement. For something
Speaker 1: more local, search online for climate change or climate action.
Speaker 1: Then add the name of your neighborhood, your town, your region. Oh,
Speaker 1: and you've got to read. This book is called All
Speaker 1: We Can Save by doctors Jana, Elizabeth Johnson and Katherine Wilkerson.
Speaker 1: It's an anthology of essays by women representing all the
Speaker 1: people we've ignored on climate and it's filled with solutions
Speaker 1: and in ration and realness. You can find this book
Speaker 1: in the Shows Online bookshop. Finally, let's do some kind
Speaker 1: of collective climate action. Those local online searches they could
Speaker 1: lead you to businesses or groups you can support. I
Speaker 1: recommend the Citizens Climate Lobby as a place to start.
Speaker 1: Now talk about those types of things. Are you composting?
Speaker 1: Are you trying to understand where your energy comes from?
Speaker 1: Share that journey online. Let's use tech to make climate
Speaker 1: action mainstream. As usual, I shared a lot, So the
Speaker 1: good news is we wrote it all down for you.
Speaker 1: Just check out the show notes for this episode in
Speaker 1: your podcast app, or visit us at how to citizen
Speaker 1: dot com. You can follow us on Instagram at how
Speaker 1: to Citizen. Please tag us in your post about your
Speaker 1: climate and tech journey and use the hashtag how to Citizen.
Speaker 1: How to Citizen with Barrittunday is a production of I
Speaker 1: Heart Radio Podcasts and Dustl Productions. Our executive producers are
Speaker 1: me Baryton Day Thurston, Elizabeth Stewart and Misha Yusa. Our
Speaker 1: senior producer is Tamika Adams. Our producer is Ali Kilts,
Speaker 1: and our assistant producer Sam Paulson. Stephanie Cohne is our editor.
Speaker 1: Valentino Rivera is our senior engineer, and Matthew Laie as
Speaker 1: our apprentice. Additional production help from rwin Knicks, Original music
Speaker 1: by Andrew Eapen with additional original music for season three
Speaker 1: from Andrew Clawson. This episode was produced and sound designed
Speaker 1: by Tamika Adams. Special thanks to Joel Smith from My
Speaker 1: Heart Radio and Rachel Garcia at dust Light Production.