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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Steve Fishman, a host of The Burden. Today

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Speaker 1: I want to introduce UD's show called deep Cover. It's

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Speaker 1: one of our current favorites. A little about the show.

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Speaker 1: It all started.

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Speaker 2: With a rumor.

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Speaker 1: It went like this. Back in nineteen eighty nine, on

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Speaker 1: prom night, a teenager boasted that he had just committed murder.

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Speaker 1: He showed off a freshly inked tattoo, a badge of

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Speaker 1: honor for killing, or so the rumor went. No one

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Speaker 1: took it seriously until two thousand and four, when two

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Speaker 1: federal agents began looking into it. But here's the thing.

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Speaker 1: Unlike almost every other murder case, in this one, the

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Speaker 1: agents had a suspect, but they had no idea who

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Speaker 1: the victim was. This is the story of deep Cover

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Speaker 1: The Nameless Man, hosted by Pulitzer Prize winning journalist Jake Halpern.

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Speaker 1: It's also the story of a family searching for answers

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Speaker 1: about why their brother was killed. These two storylines collide

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Speaker 1: in a courtroom in Philadelphia where murder, memory, and morality

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Speaker 1: go on trial. Listen to deep Cover The Nameless Man

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Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts, and please enjoy this preview

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Speaker 1: from the show.

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Speaker 3: I've been a journalist for twenty five years, and there's

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Speaker 3: this little ritual that I do at the end of

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Speaker 3: every interview. When it works, it shakes everything up, creates

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Speaker 3: a bit of chaos. I call it the hail Mary

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Speaker 3: of questions. It's like a last ditch effort to find something,

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Speaker 3: anything that I might have missed. I just say, hey,

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Speaker 3: what's the question I should have asked you. Most of

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Speaker 3: the time, like ninety percent of the time, the answer is,

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Speaker 3: I don't know. I think we covered it all. But

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Speaker 3: every once in a while a person says, well, there

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Speaker 3: is one thing we didn't talk about, and then they

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Speaker 3: drop a bomb, say something totally unexpected, And at that

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Speaker 3: moment I always imagine a door creaking open. That, in

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Speaker 3: a nutshell, is what this season is about. It's about

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Speaker 3: a guy, two guys actually, who come upon just such

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Speaker 3: a door, and on the other side of it is

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Speaker 3: a very dark secret. These two guys were federal officers.

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Speaker 3: One of them was an FBI agent based in Delaware

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Speaker 3: named Scott Duffy, and Scott he has his own version

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Speaker 3: of the hail Mary question.

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Speaker 4: One of the things that like I will routinely do,

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Speaker 4: is is there anything that we should be looking at

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Speaker 4: that could be investigated that we're not looking at.

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Speaker 3: Back in two thousand and four, Scott posed this very

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Speaker 3: question to a woman named Patricia Miller. At the time,

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Speaker 3: Scott was visiting Patricia at her home in Delaware to

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Speaker 3: learn more about her ex boyfriend, a guy named Tom Guybison.

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Speaker 3: There had been some rumors that Tom her ex was

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Speaker 3: plotting to go after a local cop, and the FBI

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Speaker 3: had asked Scott to look into this to do a

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Speaker 3: so called threat assessment. Scott didn't get that much out

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Speaker 3: of this interview with Patricia, but before leaving, he tossed

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Speaker 3: out his Hail Mary question, and that's when she told

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Speaker 3: him about the murder.

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Speaker 4: She mentions, well, there is this alleged murder to have

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Speaker 4: taken place, that when he was in high school, that

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Speaker 4: he had committed a murder for black man in order

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Speaker 4: to gain access into this white supremacy group within Delaware.

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Speaker 3: Patricia goes on to say that Tom her ex was

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Speaker 3: proud of this murder. It happened back when he was younger,

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Speaker 3: a teenager, but even years later he bragged about what

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Speaker 3: he'd done, how he'd driven into Philadelphia late at night

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Speaker 3: and shot a pedestrian a random black man, all allegedly

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Speaker 3: so we could earn some street cred as a racist skinhead.

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Speaker 3: Scott pressed Patricia for details. Was there any evidence? Did

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Speaker 3: she have any proof? According to Scott, she talked about

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Speaker 3: a newspaper article from the time about the man's death

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Speaker 3: and how it was described as a drug related killing.

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Speaker 3: She said that Tom held onto this article for a

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Speaker 3: while so we could brag about it, intimating no one knows,

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Speaker 3: but I did this this guy. That's what Patricia said. Anyhow,

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Speaker 3: all of this got Scott thinking, if this murder really happened,

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Speaker 3: maybe it wasn't so random after all. Maybe it was

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Speaker 3: predicated on a callous, cynical piece of logic that no

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Speaker 3: one would care about this victim, or at least no

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Speaker 3: one in a position of power or authority.

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Speaker 4: If there's no evidence, and there's no witnesses, no cameras,

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Speaker 4: so let's move on, and that's what Tom would be

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Speaker 4: banking on, and just be a drug deal gone bad.

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Speaker 2: That bothered me, That bothered me.

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Speaker 3: Scott may have been upset about all this, but he

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Speaker 3: was also at a loss. How do you investigate a

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Speaker 3: murder when you don't even know who the victim is? Eventually,

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Speaker 3: Scott and his partner paid a visit to the Free

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Speaker 3: Public Library of Philadelphia. They wanted to find that newspaper

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Speaker 3: article covering the victim's death. Scott recalled Patricia, saying it

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Speaker 3: was in the Philadelphia Inquirer. They felt like if they

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Speaker 3: could just somehow get a hold of that article, it

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Speaker 3: might answer so many questions.

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Speaker 4: In other words, would this give us a name? Would

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Speaker 4: this give us a location? Would this give us a date?

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Speaker 4: Because we still didn't.

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Speaker 2: Have a date.

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Speaker 4: But there's got to be countless articles people that were

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Speaker 4: just randomly killed in Philadelphia. Not only countless articles, but

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Speaker 4: then you realize there are other newspapers. What if she's wrong,

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Speaker 4: it's not the Philadelphia Inquiry. It sounds like a fool's

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Speaker 4: Errand I'm glad we did it. I'm glad we made

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Speaker 4: the trip, but I don't think we found anything.

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Speaker 2: Nothing.

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Speaker 3: So game over right. I mean, this murder, if it

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Speaker 3: even happened, would have occurred approximately fifteen years prior. It

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Speaker 3: was a cold case. And yet Scott and his partner,

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Speaker 3: a guy named Terry Mortimer, they had this feeling that

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Speaker 3: if they persisted.

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Speaker 4: We might un covers something we're destined to uncover. That

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Speaker 4: may sound corny, but I felt something. I think Terry

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Speaker 4: felt something, and we didn't know quite what and it

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Speaker 4: could have been absolutely taken us down another rabbit hole

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Speaker 4: of something that's just never could be proven.

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Speaker 2: So what do you do with that? Exactly? What do

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Speaker 2: you do with that? What do you do with something that's.

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Speaker 3: Yeah and not to be cute, but you can't exactly

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Speaker 3: go back to your boss and say that me and

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Speaker 3: Terry feel a sense of destiny here right now. So

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Speaker 3: this was mission creep big time. Plus, it's not like

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Speaker 3: there was anyone that they knew of anyhow demanding justice

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Speaker 3: for the victim.

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Speaker 4: Terry and I could have easily said we're done and

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Speaker 4: let's walk away. Nobody's going to be calling us to say, hey,

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Speaker 4: Terry and Scott, do you have any updates for us?

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Speaker 2: You know we're waiting. We haven't heard back from you

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Speaker 2: that was missing.

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Speaker 3: But is somewhere in the back of your head, are

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Speaker 3: you imagining that, like there is a mother or brother

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Speaker 3: who's trying to understand or figure out what may have

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Speaker 3: happened to their loved one that was left fore dead.

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Speaker 4: I think that that aspect was the driving factor we

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Speaker 4: couldn't just leave it alone. Somehow it was making sense

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Speaker 4: that Terry and I were put together for this very

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Speaker 4: reason of solving this hate crime, this murder that took

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Speaker 4: place on the streets of Philadelphia because somebody was black,

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Speaker 4: that we've felt like we had a duty to this person,

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Speaker 4: and somehow this person was drawing us.

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Speaker 3: And that's it. Almost hear it, the door creaking open.

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Speaker 3: This is a story about what happens when two guys

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Speaker 3: uncover a clue about something terrible, something evil, a crime

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Speaker 3: for which there has been no justice, and they have

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Speaker 3: nothing to go on. They don't have a victim, don't

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Speaker 3: have a body, don't even have a name. I'm Jake

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Speaker 3: Halper and this is Deep Cover, Season four, The Nameless Man,

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Speaker 3: Episode one. The rumor, so to recap, Scott and Terry's

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Speaker 3: investigation did not start off as a quest to solve

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Speaker 3: a cold case now or find a murder victim. Originally,

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Speaker 3: back in two thousand and four, they were asked to

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Speaker 3: do a threat assessment on Tom Gybison. That's why they

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Speaker 3: interviewed the ex girlfriend. At the time, Tom Gobison was

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Speaker 3: thirty three years old. He was in federal prison on

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Speaker 3: gun charges, but he was about to be released, and

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Speaker 3: the FEDS had some intel that Tom might be seeking retribution,

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Speaker 3: planning to harm the cop who'd put him behind bars.

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Speaker 3: This is why the FEDS were called in, and initially

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Speaker 3: this was Scott and Terry's top priority to determine if

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Speaker 3: this threat was real. But they came up short and

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Speaker 3: at some point stopped looking into Tom for the threat assessment.

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Speaker 3: But they still have this rumor, this side story that

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Speaker 3: some fifteen years prior, back in the nineteen eighties, when

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Speaker 3: Tom was still in high school, that he may have

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Speaker 3: killed a black man in Philadelphia. Who this man might be.

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Speaker 3: They had no idea, but they kept poking around. They

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Speaker 3: wanted to see what they could learn about Tom Guybison

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Speaker 3: and if he had any connections to white supremacist gangs.

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Speaker 3: And this is where Terry Mortimer, Scott's partner, really came

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Speaker 3: into play.

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Speaker 5: And this is thing about gangs is there are gangs,

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Speaker 5: and there's like, you know, not real gangs that people

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Speaker 5: say they're part of a gang, but they aren't. Kind

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Speaker 5: of thing.

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Speaker 3: Terry was a special agent with the ATF, the Bureau

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Speaker 3: of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. He worked in intelligence

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Speaker 3: and he focused heavily on guns and gangs. So Terry

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Speaker 3: wants to know what was Tom's deal.

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Speaker 5: I knew he of course was imprisoned obviously for gun charges.

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Speaker 5: You know, spent a good stint in prison federally he

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Speaker 5: had there, I guess prior contact with the law.

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Speaker 3: Terry learned that Tom was first arrested at the age

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Speaker 3: of fourteen on a deadly weapons charge. A few years later,

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Speaker 3: when he was nineteen, he was convicted of reckless endangerment

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Speaker 3: after he shot a gun at a moving car full

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Speaker 3: of people. At the time, a local newspaper in Wilmington,

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Speaker 3: Delaware ran an article on Tom. It described him as

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Speaker 3: a hulking weightlifter with a number of tattoos, including a

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Speaker 3: clenched fist on the top of his scalp and the

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Speaker 3: words born in the USA on the back of his neck.

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Speaker 3: In the article, Guy Bison says at one time he

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Speaker 3: was a blue collar skinhead. Tom defined this as quote

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Speaker 3: buying American, not doing drugs, and not drinking. To be clear,

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Speaker 3: there are different types of skinheads, not all are racists,

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Speaker 3: but in the late eighties and early nineties, skinheads were

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Speaker 3: emerging as the face of violent right wing nationalism. In

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Speaker 3: the US, their notoriety seemed to really pique at that time.

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Speaker 3: One headline from eighty nine and the New York Times read,

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Speaker 3: violent racism attracts new breed skinheads. So the possibility that

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Speaker 3: a racist skinhead might have orchestrated murder it was plausible,

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Speaker 3: but that alone wasn't a whole lot to go on.

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Speaker 3: Scott and Terry decided to focus on what Patricia, the

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Speaker 3: ex girlfriend, had told them. They honed in on two

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Speaker 3: clues in particular. The first clue involved a tattoo. Patricia

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Speaker 3: mentioned that Tom had a tattoo of a spider web

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Speaker 3: on his elbow with a teardrop in it, and that

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Speaker 3: he liked to brag that he'd gotten it essentially as

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Speaker 3: a badge of honor for killing a black man in Philadelphia.

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Speaker 5: I know enough about gang members is sometimes things aren't

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Speaker 5: what they say they are that they though I get

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Speaker 5: a tattoo and purported to be something that really isn't true,

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Speaker 5: or just kind of build their rep a little bit.

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Speaker 3: Terry was skeptical that Tom had killed someone just to

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Speaker 3: join this skinhead gang. Maybe Tom was just posing building

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Speaker 3: up his rep. Is a really violent dude, I mean Honestly,

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Speaker 3: maybe this whole thing was bullshit, right.

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Speaker 5: I couldn't really establish, you know, intelligence wise, if Tommy

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Speaker 5: was part of a skinhead gang.

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Speaker 2: I didn't think he was.

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Speaker 5: I think he was kind of more self described skinhead.

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Speaker 3: And this raised the question what a self described skinhead

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Speaker 3: acting on his own, really murder someone for what? So

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Speaker 3: he could give himself a tattoo, and all of this

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Speaker 3: while he was still in high school seemed like a stretch. Okay,

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Speaker 3: here's the second clue. He's a promising one. According to

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Speaker 3: the ex girlfriend Patricia, Tom had bragged about having an accomplice,

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Speaker 3: a guy named Craig Peterson. Allegedly they orchestrated this murder

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Speaker 3: together and both of them got those same spider web tattoos. Now,

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Speaker 3: if this was true, and if they could find Craig

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Speaker 3: and if he would talk, well that'd be huge. But

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Speaker 3: that was a lot of ifs. So they started combing

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Speaker 3: through public records asking around about this Craig guy, the

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Speaker 3: supposed accomplice, and here's what they found. Craig was an

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Speaker 3: old buddy from Tom's high school days. He also identified

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Speaker 3: specifically as a blue collar skinhead. Craig had grown up

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Speaker 3: in Delaware, but as far as anyone could tell, he

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Speaker 3: wasn't living there anymore. Seemed like he kind of disappeared.

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Speaker 3: And then they got a lead.

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Speaker 5: We found out he's in He's in Vermont, like a

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Speaker 5: remote part of Vermont. And I remember, I said, this

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Speaker 5: dude's hiding. Man, he's hiding. I said, that cat from Wilmington,

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Speaker 5: Delaware living in Vermont. Man, I said, dude, it gets

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Speaker 5: cold up there. Man, I mean, that's a cold place.

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Speaker 4: Bro.

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Speaker 3: So they put on their winter coats and headed north.

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Speaker 3: It was now December of two thousand and four. It

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Speaker 3: had been about a month since they first heard the rumor,

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Speaker 3: and now here they were in the car, driving into

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Speaker 3: the chill of a Vermont winter. Temperature was hovering around

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Speaker 3: freezing that night, and as they sped along through the

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Speaker 3: green mountains, past the darkened forests of evergreens, they had

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Speaker 3: no idea what to expect, Like, what are you hoping

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Speaker 3: to find out?

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Speaker 2: Hey?

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Speaker 5: At this point, we're like, man, whatever he's got, he's

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Speaker 5: got to give us something, man, because we're again we're

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Speaker 5: spinning our wheels. It felt like, man, if this has

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Speaker 5: come through, I think we're I think, honestly, I think

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Speaker 5: we're done.

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Speaker 3: Terry recalls on that drive up to Vermont, they talked

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Speaker 3: a lot about why they couldn't or shouldn't give up

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Speaker 3: on the case.

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Speaker 5: So we had great discussions, and that's when I really

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Speaker 5: we both realized, Wow, wait a minute, this is not

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Speaker 5: an accident that he and I are team together. This

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Speaker 5: was like, literally, we didn't do this, we couldn't plan.

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Speaker 3: This, and there was a reason for this feeling. Turns

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Speaker 3: out there was a strange symmetry to their lives that

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Speaker 3: dated back before they ever met. So we're gonna leave

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Speaker 3: Scott and Terry in the car heading up to Vermont

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Speaker 3: and turn back the clock. For Scott, it all started

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Speaker 3: when he graduated high school. He wanted to be a cop,

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Speaker 3: but by his own estimation at the time, he was

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Speaker 3: too small, too skinny. He weighed just ninety three pounds,

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Speaker 3: so instead he opted to become a priest. He was

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Speaker 3: just seventeen years old when he decided to join the seminary,

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Speaker 3: but right away when he put on that priest's color,

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Speaker 3: it was transformative, both for him and also for the

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Speaker 3: way that other people looked at him.

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Speaker 4: I would be sitting in a pew, maybe praying in

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Speaker 4: a church, somebody would come by and start confessing, and

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Speaker 4: people just started pouring their souls out to me.

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Speaker 3: In these moments, Scott was learning how to listen, how

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Speaker 3: to suspend judgment, how to be patient as people grappled

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Speaker 3: with some burdensome secret, inching their way towards the precipice

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Speaker 3: of truth. He spent five years training to become a priest,

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Speaker 3: but dreams are stubborn things, and his didn't go away.

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Speaker 3: He left the seminary to become a cop and then

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Speaker 3: an FBI agent.

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Speaker 4: It is harder to leave than it is to go in.

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Speaker 4: And that's ultimately because I think now you have ventured

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Speaker 4: this relationship with God, and now you're afraid of pissing

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Speaker 4: him off.

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Speaker 3: For Scott, this shifting careers seemed like a natural progression

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Speaker 3: for him. The seminary prepared him for this work, prepared

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Speaker 3: him to listen and see his way through a messy

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Speaker 3: world fraught with moral dilemmas. But when he'd tell people

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Speaker 3: about his past, how he'd almost become a priest, they're like, oh,

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Speaker 3: my gosh, I can never imagine. The two are totally

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Speaker 3: opposed to each other. And I never understood that. But

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Speaker 3: there was at least one person who got it completely.

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Speaker 2: Terry.

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Speaker 5: I went to college at a very small Bible College

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Speaker 5: and was preparing for ministry.

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Speaker 3: From a young age. Terry felt destined for the ministry,

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Speaker 3: but later on, when he was in Bible College, he

302
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Speaker 3: had second thoughts. As graduation approached, a friend asked him,

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Speaker 3: you ever considered becoming a cop. The short answer was no.

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Speaker 3: But on a whim, Terry applied and met with a recruiter.

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Speaker 5: And this guy, he was a hardcore dude. I mean

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Speaker 5: he looked at me. I was back then, I was skinny.

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Speaker 5: He looked at me and said, you're from where and

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Speaker 5: you want to do what? Like you're from Bible College. Man,

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Speaker 5: you have any idea what you're applying for, what you're

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Speaker 5: trying to do. I said, no, sir, I have no idea.

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Speaker 3: Terry was undeterred. He became a cop and then an

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Speaker 3: agent with the ATF. And this was not a consolation

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Speaker 3: job for Terry. He's very clear about this. He feels

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Speaker 3: that God had a purpose for him in law enforcement.

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Speaker 3: And that's the thing you got to understand about both

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Speaker 3: Terry and Scott. These are not men who look at

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Speaker 3: the world and see coincidences what they see is much

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Speaker 3: closer to fate or God's will, And when they became partners,

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Speaker 3: it all seemed meant to be. Here were two guys

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Speaker 3: who early on looked too skinny and earnest to be cops,

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Speaker 3: guys who intended to become men of God. Different in

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Speaker 3: their own ways. Terry grew up in a gritty river

323
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Speaker 3: town in Pennsylvania, and he kind of feels like a dude.

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Speaker 3: You'd play around a mini golf with grab a Burger,

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Speaker 3: have a laugh, and then realize only belatedly, that you

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Speaker 3: told him more than you intended to. Scott, Well, he's

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Speaker 3: more formal. He's from Connecticut, a really Yankee, a man

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Speaker 3: who chooses his words carefully, a patient priest who knows

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Speaker 3: how to nurse a long pregnant pause. The two of

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Speaker 3: them worked well together, complimented one another, the Pennsylvania pastor

331
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Speaker 3: and the New England priest, and I've been calling them partners,

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Speaker 3: but they only ever worked together on this one investigation.

333
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Speaker 3: It was an unusual collaboration between the FBI and the ATF,

334
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Speaker 3: and they didn't choose one another. They were kind of

335
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Speaker 3: paired randomly, though neither of them would say it was random.

336
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Speaker 5: You know, as I realized, wait a minute, we're we're

337
00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:04,400
Speaker 5: on a mission from God.

338
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Speaker 3: But yep, just like the Blues Brothers.

339
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Speaker 5: We didn't really say that, I'm just making it up,

340
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Speaker 5: but that was the feeling was like, hey, no, but

341
00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:16,960
Speaker 5: it was like no joke, Like this is a real deal.

342
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Speaker 5: Like it's almost like we're walking through almost like a dream,

343
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Speaker 5: Like what is going on here?

344
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Speaker 3: So yeah, even though all they had was a rumor

345
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Speaker 3: of a long forgotten crime that might not have even happened,

346
00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:35,040
Speaker 3: these two almost ministers, the God Squad as it were,

347
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:39,080
Speaker 3: still felt certain that they were here in this car

348
00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:43,200
Speaker 3: heading north into Vermont for a reason, and they were

349
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Speaker 3: convinced that something important was waiting for them. That's when

350
00:22:48,240 --> 00:23:15,639
Speaker 3: we get back. Both Scott and Terry had this hunch

351
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Speaker 3: that there was a reason Craig, the alleged accomplice, was

352
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Speaker 3: up in Vermont, up in the mountains, that he was hiding.

353
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Speaker 3: But if so, who is he hiding from and why?

354
00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:32,160
Speaker 3: In any case, they knew they had to be careful.

355
00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:35,960
Speaker 3: They'd learned from police reports that in the past Craig

356
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:39,280
Speaker 3: had helped Tom clean and store a whole arsenal of weapons.

357
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Speaker 2: Why did he do this?

358
00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:44,200
Speaker 3: Well, Tom had a felony on his record, which meant

359
00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:47,000
Speaker 3: he wasn't supposed to have any guns, so his buddy

360
00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:51,200
Speaker 3: Craig helped him out. This suggested two things to the agents.

361
00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:54,840
Speaker 3: One Craig was loyal. He ended up going to prison

362
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:59,359
Speaker 3: for strowing those weapons, and two, Craig was probably handy

363
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:02,960
Speaker 3: with a gun. The God Squad was still hatching their

364
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:05,240
Speaker 3: plan as they rolled into town.

365
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Speaker 2: It was late.

366
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Speaker 4: I feel like we were closing in on midnight, and

367
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Speaker 4: we didn't want to put it off.

368
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Speaker 2: We were just so full of energy.

369
00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:24,919
Speaker 3: It was late for a door knock, very late, but

370
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:29,679
Speaker 3: their excitement eclipsed their caution, so instead of waiting until morning,

371
00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:33,439
Speaker 3: they drove right to his house. Their plan was to

372
00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:37,159
Speaker 3: say hello, introduce themselves, and arrange to have a formal

373
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Speaker 3: sit down the following day.

374
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Speaker 5: And when we finally found where he lives, he lives

375
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Speaker 5: literally on top of like if it's on a mountain,

376
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Speaker 5: it's a very very tall hill. It's very tall and

377
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Speaker 5: very steep.

378
00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:55,920
Speaker 4: I remember being very very dark, like I don't think

379
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:58,840
Speaker 4: I could see my hand in front of me. And

380
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:02,240
Speaker 4: as soon as we got out of our cars, I

381
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:05,360
Speaker 4: think we got out a few feet and then floodlights.

382
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:09,160
Speaker 4: I just remember floodlights like we were in a stadium,

383
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Speaker 4: just shined upon us.

384
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Speaker 5: I mean it was like bright as day. He had

385
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:19,480
Speaker 5: hooked up these spotlights and trees illuminating the whole area,

386
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Speaker 5: and we can see his house dimly up the top

387
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:23,800
Speaker 5: of the hill. I think I may have made a

388
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:26,680
Speaker 5: comment to Scott. I said, man, if he had any

389
00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:28,440
Speaker 5: ill intent, he we'd be dead men right now.

390
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 2: That told me a lot that.

391
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Speaker 4: Wow, you know what is inside this person that he

392
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Speaker 4: has this going on where he wants to be made

393
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Speaker 4: well aware of anybody arriving.

394
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Speaker 5: I'm thinking, man, he does not want to he doesn't

395
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Speaker 5: want to be found.

396
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:58,359
Speaker 3: Scott and Terry start trudging up the icy, snow covered hill.

397
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Speaker 3: They can hear dogs barking from within the house. Eventually

398
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:06,560
Speaker 3: they get up to the front porch and Craig walks out.

399
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:10,600
Speaker 3: He's medium height and stocky with a closely cropped haircut.

400
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:12,720
Speaker 3: Scott calls out to.

401
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,840
Speaker 4: Him, Craig Peterson, you don't know us, but we're here.

402
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:18,879
Speaker 4: I'm going to talk to you. Federal agents. Can we

403
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 4: approach you? Can we come up to your house and

404
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:32,000
Speaker 4: within ten seconds just a very friendly inviting demeanor, come on.

405
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:33,520
Speaker 2: Up and come into my house.

406
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:36,960
Speaker 4: Is a sigh of relief of that, but definitely a

407
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 4: side of release. First and foremost, we've achieved our first

408
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:45,880
Speaker 4: goal is finding him, achieved our second goal of being

409
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:49,679
Speaker 4: able to be face to face with him. Our third

410
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:53,480
Speaker 4: goal was to get him to come and speak with

411
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:55,640
Speaker 4: us at a different location. We weren't going to talk

412
00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:56,800
Speaker 4: to him at his house.

413
00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:00,920
Speaker 3: Craig invites them inside, he introduces them to his fiance.

414
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:05,600
Speaker 3: It's all very normal and Craig he seems unfazed.

415
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 5: He was very relaxed, very gracious. I mean, just almost

416
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:12,240
Speaker 5: opposite of what I was expecting.

417
00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:15,679
Speaker 3: Scott and Terry explain that they just have a few

418
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,600
Speaker 3: questions for him about an old matter from the past.

419
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:22,400
Speaker 3: They keep it deliberately vague, and they ask if he'd

420
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 3: be willing to meet with them the following day down

421
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:27,720
Speaker 3: at the barracks where the Vermont State Police are stationed.

422
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:32,000
Speaker 3: Craig's like, sure, I'll meet you tomorrow after I'm done

423
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:36,439
Speaker 3: with work. All the while, Terry is studying both Craig

424
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:39,879
Speaker 3: and his fiancee, trying to get a read on them.

425
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 5: His fiance was way more concerned than he was, like

426
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 5: she was like, what's going on?

427
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:46,480
Speaker 2: What's this about?

428
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:49,159
Speaker 5: He's not stressed at all, Like there's no stress with

429
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:51,880
Speaker 5: this dat like there's nothing. I'm like, this is unbelievable.

430
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 3: The next day, Scott and Terry are down at the

431
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 3: barracks of the Vermont State Police and they're just hoping

432
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 3: Craig actually shows up.

433
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:03,920
Speaker 5: He ain't gonna show up, Like, what's the odds he's

434
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 5: gonna show up, Like I was like fifty to fifty.

435
00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:11,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, But he shows up, affects it early, and after

436
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:14,120
Speaker 3: a little chit chat, they all sit down and get

437
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:18,399
Speaker 3: to business. Scott explains that they're here about Tom Guybison.

438
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:25,200
Speaker 4: Craig, We've made a long trip and we've been investigating

439
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:30,919
Speaker 4: Tom for a possible threat, and during the course of

440
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:35,439
Speaker 4: that investigation, we've learned that a story was told.

441
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 3: This is the story they'd heard from Patricia, Tom's ex girlfriend,

442
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 3: that some fifteen years prior, Craig and Tom had been skinheads,

443
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:48,560
Speaker 3: that they'd killed a black man in Philadelphia and then

444
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 3: gotten tattoos to commemorate what they'd done. And Craig just

445
00:28:53,400 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 3: looked at us shocked, almost a sense of I can't

446
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 3: believe that this is coming back, and then he sat

447
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 3: back in his chair and said, I don't know what

448
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:26,680
Speaker 3: you're talking about. Scott keeps pressing gently, very much playing

449
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:28,960
Speaker 3: the role of the New England priest, that he almost

450
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 3: was concealing any signs of judgment, just patiently probing.

451
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 4: Well, at the very least, would you admit you have

452
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 4: the tattoo?

453
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:44,520
Speaker 2: Why would they lie about the story? Would they?

454
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:50,480
Speaker 4: Would they also lie about the tattoo? So would you

455
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:57,160
Speaker 4: raise your would you raise your sleeve? And so begrudgingly

456
00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:01,000
Speaker 4: he did. He showed us his tattoo.

457
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 3: A gothic looking spider web in black ink, with the

458
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:08,840
Speaker 3: elbow directly at the center, similar to what Patricia had described.

459
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:12,880
Speaker 3: Craig admitted that he and Tom both had tattoos like this,

460
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:16,240
Speaker 3: that they'd gotten them together back in high school, and

461
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 3: Greg admitted that back in his youth, yeah, he'd been

462
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 3: his skinhead, but it had just been a phase.

463
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 5: He said, Man, that was a long time ago. I

464
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 5: was a young knucklehead, and I don't believe that stuff anymore,

465
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:32,000
Speaker 5: you know, man, I'm up here. I'm working hard, man, guys.

466
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 5: I work every day, hourly wage. I work as electrician.

467
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 5: I've got a new life. I don't want any part

468
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:41,120
Speaker 5: of this. He just denied the whole thing. But I

469
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 5: can't overemphasize. I'm watching this cat. I'm like, he's not

470
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:45,960
Speaker 5: stressed at all.

471
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 3: At this point. Despite the fact that Craig had this tattoo,

472
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:54,400
Speaker 3: which offered some corroboration, Scott and Terry basically have to

473
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:57,960
Speaker 3: let him go. They say, hey, let's keep in touch.

474
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:00,720
Speaker 3: If you ever come down to Delaware, please let us know.

475
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 3: We'd like to keep talking.

476
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 5: And he said, yeah, if I come down there like Jake,

477
00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 5: no one's ever gonna say yeah, yeah, yeah, I look

478
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:09,040
Speaker 5: your eyes up. If I'm ever down, Dewlla, We're sure

479
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:11,680
Speaker 5: like we're gonna have a dinner together. I'm thinking nobody

480
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:14,360
Speaker 5: does that. Nobody wants to talk to their least favorite

481
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:17,240
Speaker 5: FBI and ATF agent in the world about a homicide

482
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:17,920
Speaker 5: they didn't commit.

483
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 3: In Terry's mind, it was weird how friendly he was,

484
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 3: and it also seemed difficult to imagine that this guy

485
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:30,560
Speaker 3: right here, this laid back electrician living in Vermont, could

486
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:33,440
Speaker 3: be capable of orchestrating a murder.

487
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 5: If the dude was in the car with the and

488
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:41,479
Speaker 5: they did a homicide. However went down, whoever pulled the trigger,

489
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:45,120
Speaker 5: thinking I'm not seeing it. I mean, if it did

490
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:47,840
Speaker 5: happen and he was in the very car, I see

491
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 5: nothing nonverbal in this guy. There's no stress, there's no deception.

492
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:54,360
Speaker 5: I'm looking at his eyes, I'm looking at his whole

493
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 5: facial I'm looking at everything. I'm thinking this guy's like

494
00:31:57,640 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 5: the he liked the best liar ever.

495
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:03,320
Speaker 3: So they say goodbye to Craig, They thank the Vermont

496
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:06,200
Speaker 3: State Troopers. They walk out of the barracks, get in

497
00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 3: their car, and head home, all the while trying to

498
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:12,479
Speaker 3: make sense of what they've just learned.

499
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:16,880
Speaker 5: And I said, Scott, I don't think it happened, man.

500
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,080
Speaker 5: He gause, what do you mean. I said, there's no

501
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:22,680
Speaker 5: way that, dude, there's no way. I said, maybe Tommy

502
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 5: did something. I don't know, but I said he didn't

503
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 5: do nothing. I'm telling you that dude is way too cool.

504
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:28,000
Speaker 5: And Scott he.

505
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 2: Goes, Nah, I kind of think something's there. Man, this happened,

506
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 2: and we're definitely not stopping.

507
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:40,480
Speaker 5: I said, Scott, I'm not seeing it, man, I said, Dude,

508
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 5: I said, I think we're toast.

509
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:41,719
Speaker 1: Bro.

510
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:46,640
Speaker 3: After this time passes about a year and a half,

511
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:50,360
Speaker 3: and during this stretch. Very little happens in this case.

512
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:54,960
Speaker 3: Craig keeps living his quiet life up in the Vermont Mountains.

513
00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:58,240
Speaker 3: Occasionally the God Squad gives him a call just to

514
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 3: check in, but Craig never tells him anything new. Meanwhile,

515
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 3: Tom Godbison finishes serving his time in federal prison. He's released,

516
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 3: goes back to living in Delaware, where he seems to

517
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 3: stay out of trouble. Then one day in April of

518
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:18,040
Speaker 3: two thousand and six, the God Squad gets a phone

519
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:19,720
Speaker 3: call from Craig.

520
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:24,840
Speaker 5: Craig says, Hey, basically, I'm coming down to see my mom.

521
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:26,960
Speaker 5: You know, do you guys want to still talk to me?

522
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:31,760
Speaker 5: I'm incredulous the dude is volunteering. You know, nothing's happened

523
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 5: in the year and whatever months it's been. There's no

524
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:36,000
Speaker 5: subpoenas as though arrest, there's those search warrants.

525
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:36,280
Speaker 2: Nothing.

526
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:37,960
Speaker 5: He's got to think he's Scott free.

527
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:41,000
Speaker 3: Are you Are you pretty surprised to get this phone call?

528
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:42,000
Speaker 2: Yeah?

529
00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:45,680
Speaker 5: I mean again, I'm like, this is unbelievable, doesn't make

530
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 5: any sense to me. But I honestly I literally felt like,

531
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:54,400
Speaker 5: does he want friends? Does he need friends? There's some

532
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 5: things that are miraculous. They don't look miraculous, but they

533
00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:00,760
Speaker 5: literally are miraculous. So that doesn't happen in the world, man,

534
00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 5: it doesn't happen.

535
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:05,240
Speaker 3: Terry and Scott are determined to make the most of

536
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:08,840
Speaker 3: this meeting, and they go for a new strategy. They've

537
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 3: tried the whole good cop routine and it hasn't worked,

538
00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:16,880
Speaker 3: not really, so time to apply a little pressure. They

539
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:20,800
Speaker 3: get a subpoena requiring Craig to testify before a grand

540
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:24,640
Speaker 3: jury about the murder that allegedly took place. This is

541
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:27,880
Speaker 3: no joke. The subpoena will put Craig on the spot

542
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:31,720
Speaker 3: because lying before a grand jury is a serious offense.

543
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:34,960
Speaker 3: They can land you in prison for years. But remember

544
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,120
Speaker 3: they still have pretty much nothing on Craig at this point,

545
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:42,680
Speaker 3: so the subpoena, it's kind of a bluff. What's your

546
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:44,040
Speaker 3: mindset going into that meeting.

547
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:52,600
Speaker 4: Our mindset is this, we had a subpoena, We're gonna

548
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 4: give it to him. You always have to hand deliver it.

549
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:57,239
Speaker 4: There was going to be no more willer room, no

550
00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:00,480
Speaker 4: more postponements. This is now going to be either make

551
00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:01,400
Speaker 4: it or break it.

552
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 3: So Craig shows up at the FBI's offices in Wilmington, Delaware.

553
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:10,239
Speaker 3: He's got no idea that there's a subpoena waiting for him.

554
00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:14,160
Speaker 3: What happens next we pieced together from talking to the

555
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:19,200
Speaker 3: agents and reading their report from that day. Initially, it's

556
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:22,720
Speaker 3: all smiles. Terry keeps the whole thing really upbeat.

557
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:25,400
Speaker 5: Hey, we thank you for coming down. This is awesome.

558
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:28,440
Speaker 5: You know, we really appreciate it.

559
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 3: They asked Craig again about the rumor of the murder

560
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:35,920
Speaker 3: down in Philadelphia. They tell him, we don't think you're

561
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:40,120
Speaker 3: telling us the truth, and this time, instead of denying

562
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:44,759
Speaker 3: the whole thing outright, Craig concedes that maybe back at

563
00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:46,759
Speaker 3: the time, there'd been some chatter about this.

564
00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:49,360
Speaker 5: I think he said something like, yeah, we heard rumors

565
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:52,120
Speaker 5: about that that someone said we did a homicide. But

566
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:55,919
Speaker 5: man's no, that's nothing to it. We didn't do any homicide.

567
00:35:56,360 --> 00:36:00,359
Speaker 5: It's a bunch of junk. Didn't happen. Yeah, maybe maybe

568
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:02,520
Speaker 5: Tommy said that's going to build our rep a little bit.

569
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:06,399
Speaker 3: In other words, a bit of bragging, but nothing more

570
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 3: than that. The agents push Craig tell him, we believe

571
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:15,920
Speaker 3: a homicide occurred and that you participated in it. Eventually,

572
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 3: when the meeting is almost over, the hand Craig the

573
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:22,040
Speaker 3: subpoena and kind of hold their breath.

574
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:25,880
Speaker 5: And again we're shooting blanks. We have nothing right. Well,

575
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:29,000
Speaker 5: his whole demeanor changed when he got to subpoena. He's

576
00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:33,000
Speaker 5: like what the stress right? Went from like zero to

577
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:34,960
Speaker 5: like he's he's hitting about a ten.

578
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:41,280
Speaker 3: That meeting ends without a breakthrough. Craig didn't admit to anything,

579
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:45,399
Speaker 3: but a few days later he calls them back says

580
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:49,319
Speaker 3: he wants to meet again, have another sit down. So

581
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:54,320
Speaker 3: they reconvene, and at this meeting, right off the bat,

582
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 3: the mood is tense.

583
00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 4: When he arrived, I could tell he was depleted, shaken.

584
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:12,160
Speaker 4: His whole body had changed to a defeatist demeanor.

585
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:18,319
Speaker 5: He was like completely complete hundred degree change, and he

586
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:22,839
Speaker 5: literally it's hard to describe. It was literally like an

587
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:26,319
Speaker 5: invisible hand was pushing him down in the chair. He

588
00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:29,920
Speaker 5: physically got smaller. I saw him shrink like like like

589
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:35,360
Speaker 5: he was like getting deflated. He started sweating, beads of

590
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:36,319
Speaker 5: sweat were popping out.

591
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:42,279
Speaker 4: You could feel the tension, but you can also feel like, uh,

592
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:48,720
Speaker 4: he's about to say something, and then he's.

593
00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 2: He says I'll tell you everything. I'll tell you everything.

594
00:37:55,400 --> 00:38:01,400
Speaker 3: I'll tell you everything, And at this moment it's I'm like, maybe,

595
00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:06,160
Speaker 3: just maybe they've been right all along not to give

596
00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:10,360
Speaker 3: up on this, and that the truth was finally at hand.

597
00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:17,920
Speaker 3: Coming up this season on Deep Cover.

598
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 4: We have to do our job and we have to

599
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:24,000
Speaker 4: find out who did they kill.

600
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:29,800
Speaker 5: Not that any murder isn't disturbing, but this particular murder

601
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:33,839
Speaker 5: and the reason for it the hate. This was a

602
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:34,920
Speaker 5: hate crime.

603
00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:38,560
Speaker 2: I believe Tom guy as Soon is innocent.

604
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 5: They had no physical evidence, they had no gun, they

605
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:42,760
Speaker 5: had nothing.

606
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:48,120
Speaker 6: We didn't like the speculation the family, and I thought

607
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:51,399
Speaker 6: that this would be good if we found at least

608
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:53,879
Speaker 6: what happened to them. Can't do nothing about it, can't

609
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:56,440
Speaker 6: bring them back, but at least we'll find out the truth.

610
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:25,320
Speaker 3: Deep Cover is produced by Amy Gaines McQuaid and Jacob Smith.

611
00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:30,839
Speaker 3: It's edited by Karen SCHAKERJI mastering by Jake Gorsky. Our

612
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:34,360
Speaker 3: show art was designed by Sean Carney. Original scoring and

613
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:38,200
Speaker 3: our theme was composed by Luis Gara. Fact checking by

614
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:44,360
Speaker 3: Arthur Gomberts. Our story consultant was James Foreman Jr. Special

615
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:48,640
Speaker 3: thanks to Jerry Williams, Sarah Nix, Greta Cone, and Jake Flanagan.

616
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:50,480
Speaker 3: I'm Jake Albert